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Speaker 1: Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. Oh boy, howdy, welcome

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Speaker 2: back to It could happen here? A podcast about it

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Speaker 2: happening here, and the it is different most episodes, but

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Speaker 2: today the thing that is happening here is discussion about

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Speaker 2: the growth of self immolation as a form of protest

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Speaker 2: from the twentieth to the twenty first century. Obviously, we

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Speaker 2: are recording this less than a week after Aaron Bushnell,

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Speaker 2: a twenty five year old serviceman in the United States

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Speaker 2: Air Force, let himself on fire in front of the

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Speaker 2: Israeli Intimacy in Washington, d C. And you know, repeatedly

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Speaker 2: stated free Palestine as he was doing it. He said

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Speaker 2: more than that, obviously, he wrote, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: very clearly about why he did what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: This is something that you'll have heard a lot of

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Speaker 2: debate about. There's a certain kind of person, particularly in

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Speaker 2: the media, who feels obligated to say this is mental

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Speaker 2: illness and we shouldn't discuss it as anything else. I

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Speaker 2: think that's wrong for the same reasons, by the way

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Speaker 2: that it's wrong to dismiss, you know, any sort of

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Speaker 2: mass shooter or whatever as mentally ill not that either

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Speaker 2: of those are similar in terms of the actions they're not,

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Speaker 2: but that attempt to dismiss it because it's something it

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Speaker 2: makes you uncomfortable to consider that somebody could do something

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Speaker 2: so incomprehensible to you for a logical reason. Now, when

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Speaker 2: I say a logical reason, that doesn't mean I'm arguing

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Speaker 2: this is something more people should do. It doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: that I'm arguing that this was the best thing that

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Speaker 2: Bushnell could do. What I am saying is that, from

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Speaker 2: everything that is available, this was a rational act. He

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Speaker 2: understood what he hoped to accomplish with this, and he

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Speaker 2: took concerted steps to ensure that he succeeded and that

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Speaker 2: attention was drawn to it. His reason for doing it

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Speaker 2: was clear. He took actions like to set up a

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Speaker 2: will and whatnot. This seems to have been a rational

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Speaker 2: and principled action, and we are I'm not really primarily

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Speaker 2: going to be discussing what Bushnell did because I don't

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Speaker 2: really know that there's much to say. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: it's everyone here's stants that what's being done to Gaza

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Speaker 2: is a genocide. I don't know that this will help.

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Speaker 2: I certainly hope that somehow it does, but we're simply

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Speaker 2: not at a point where we can say what the

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Speaker 2: impact of this on the overall you know, situation in

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Speaker 2: Gaza is going to be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean I guess, like the thing we

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Speaker 3: can say off the bat is like whether or not

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Speaker 3: this matters is to a larger scent up to you

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Speaker 3: because like, yeah, someone someone like I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: the thing, right, Like.

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Speaker 2: The matters in the sense that it has an impact

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Speaker 2: on the Obviously, I think it matters because he was

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Speaker 2: a person.

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Speaker 3: Well that too, right, Yeah, but like yeah, in the

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Speaker 3: in the in the in the sense of whether it

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Speaker 3: accomplishes political objectives, Yes, that's up to us figuring out

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Speaker 3: how we're going to run a political movement in such

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Speaker 3: a way that the sennis I get stopped.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is yeah, that's not something I have

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Speaker 2: a clear answer for you on right now that I

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Speaker 2: mean to think there. I think so. I think the

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Speaker 2: thing we're going to try to do that I think

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Speaker 2: can be helpful in this is a tempt to provide

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Speaker 2: some context on what is the history of self immolation

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Speaker 2: as a protest tactic, How does it tend to work

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Speaker 2: in the past, and and and in the present, and

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Speaker 2: in what sort of situations has it been more or

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Speaker 2: less effective as a as an instrument of protest. That's

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Speaker 2: what we're going to try to cover today. Obviously, this

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Speaker 2: should not be seen as a totally comprehensive look at

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Speaker 2: the entire history of goodcast as I'm about to come.

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Speaker 2: This is this is what we can get for you

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Speaker 2: in about a week, and I think I think it

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Speaker 2: will help and provide a broader sense of context as

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Speaker 2: to how this sort of thing has worked in other

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Speaker 2: situations around the world and throughout time self and goes

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Speaker 2: back very far as a protest tactic. There were Christians

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Speaker 2: who were being persecuted by the Roman government in Nicodemia

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Speaker 2: in three hundred AD who lit a fire in front

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Speaker 2: of the emperor's palace and threw themselves into a bonfire

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Speaker 2: as an active protest in Russia. I think in like

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Speaker 2: the sixteen hundreds Orthodox I don't know there was an

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Speaker 2: Orthodox sect. I don't really know much about them, but

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Speaker 2: they they locked themselves in churches as a protest for

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Speaker 2: some of the Czar's reforms and then lit those churches

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Speaker 2: on fire, so like died inside the churches that they

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Speaker 2: were in. So this is a kind of thing that

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Speaker 2: goes back quite a while. I'm sure there are other

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Speaker 2: cases in you know, ancient history that go well before that,

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Speaker 2: but it's not a new thing. However, when we talk

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Speaker 2: about kind of twentieth and twenty first century self immolation,

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Speaker 2: the first sort of really famous case of this, and

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Speaker 2: the one that gets brought up every single time people

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Speaker 2: talk about self immolation as a protest tactic, was one

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Speaker 2: that occurred during the Vietnam War, and it was the

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Speaker 2: self immolation of a Buddhist monk named tish Quang Duk.

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Speaker 2: I believe that's Thhich. I think that's how that's pronounced.

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Speaker 2: I let's do it before we started recording this, But

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff slips out of my head, so

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Speaker 2: I apologize if that is the case. He's an interesting guy.

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Speaker 2: I think pretty pretty his early life is probably pretty

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Speaker 2: common for people who become Buddhists, who became Buddhist monks

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Speaker 2: and kind of Central Vietnam in this period of time.

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Speaker 2: He left home when he was like seven, He became

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Speaker 2: a novice at fifteen. By twenty he was a full monk.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that's happening during this period

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Speaker 2: of time is the South Vietnamese government is this guy

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Speaker 2: he's called a president. The president. He is a dictator.

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Speaker 2: I think everything but name No Din Dim and he's

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Speaker 2: a terrible guy. He's a French educated Catholic. And if

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Speaker 2: you know anything about the French history and into China

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Speaker 2: right like that, that does not suggest somebody whose role

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Speaker 2: before Vietnam got its independence from France was particularly great.

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Speaker 2: His brother No din knew what is the head of

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Speaker 2: the secret police. And they are despite the fact that Vietnam,

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Speaker 2: South Vietnam is a Buddhist majority country, they're passing a

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Speaker 2: lot of policies that are like actively cracking down on

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Speaker 2: and reducing the right of Buddhist people to worship right.

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Speaker 2: And you know this is there's a lot of reasons

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Speaker 2: for this, but they kind of boiled down to the

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Speaker 2: fact that dim was horrible was just a fucking dog shit. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: really really trash. Now I've heard it said online when

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Speaker 2: people bring up this self immolation, you know, within kind

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Speaker 2: of the context of what's happened recently, like this wasn't

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Speaker 2: a you know, people are wrong when they say this

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Speaker 2: was an active protest to the Vietnam War. It wasn't.

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Speaker 2: And that is technically true because like the thing that

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Speaker 2: that duke was was protesting was not US involvement in Vietnam.

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Speaker 2: But he was protesting the US backed government of South Vietnam,

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Speaker 2: and that government is very livant to why there was

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Speaker 2: a Vietnam War. So I do kind of think it's

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Speaker 2: it's not entirely accurate to be like, well, this wasn't

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Speaker 2: a Vietnam War protest, I.

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Speaker 4: Don't know it was.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 3: It was just about the fact that like the Catholic,

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Speaker 3: theocratic drug dealing fashions government, it was like murdering.

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Speaker 2: It seems like you're splitting the hair there, bro. I

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Speaker 2: feel like the murdering Buddhist thing might have been part

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Speaker 2: of why there was so many people willing to fight

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Speaker 2: the South Vietnamese government. Not a zero percent part of

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Speaker 2: that equation maybe, But yeah, so these guys, these Buddhists,

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Speaker 2: i mean Buddhist religious leaders in the country get increasingly

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Speaker 2: angry about what's happening. There are debates i think for

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Speaker 2: several years kind of within sort of the more highly

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Speaker 2: ranking kind of leaders in the faith as to like

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Speaker 2: what do we do about this crackdown on our rights

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Speaker 2: and like should we They were talking for quite some

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Speaker 2: time about having a self immolation protest, right like it

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Speaker 2: was the kind of thing where there was a decent

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Speaker 2: amount of like discussion earlier. And Duck is actually the

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Speaker 2: one who I think suggested it initially to like other

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Speaker 2: leaders in the church. And yeah, while there was like

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Speaker 2: for a while they tried to push back against this,

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Speaker 2: eventually the level of prosecution just became so clear that

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Speaker 2: you know, they basically said, Okay, let's like you can

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Speaker 2: do this. And Dook is going to be the guy

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Speaker 2: who is going to like physically, you know, destroy his

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Speaker 2: body in order to carry out this act of protest,

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Speaker 2: As is always going to be the case when we

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Speaker 2: talk about these famous self immolation cases, half of the

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Speaker 2: story is the guy who does the or the individual

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Speaker 2: who lights himself on fire, and half of the story

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Speaker 2: is the reporter who happens to be there, and in

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Speaker 2: this case it was a guy named Malcolm Brown. He is,

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Speaker 2: I believe he's an American reporter. He's stationed in you know, Saygone,

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Speaker 2: and he's he's, you know, doing what a lot of

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Speaker 2: journalists were doing at the time. And in the springtime

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Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty three, there start being like these kind

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Speaker 2: of messages put out by the Buddhist Church that are

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Speaker 2: sort of he describes it as hinting as some kind

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Speaker 2: of spectacular protest. His guess was that it would quote

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Speaker 2: most likely be a disembowlment of one of the monks

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Speaker 2: or an immolation, and either way, it was something we

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Speaker 2: had to pay attention to. And like a lot of journalists,

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Speaker 2: he's got some sources within the church. He gets a

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Speaker 2: call one day and they're like, you should show up

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Speaker 2: at this pagoda at this specific time. And here is

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Speaker 2: how Malcolm describes what he saw. By the time I

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Speaker 2: got to the pagoda where all this was being organized,

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Speaker 2: it was already under way. The monks and nuns were

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Speaker 2: chanting a type of chance that's very common at funerals

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Speaker 2: and so forth. At a signal from the leader They

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Speaker 2: all started out into the street and headed toward the

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Speaker 2: central part of Saigon on foot. When we reached there,

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Speaker 2: the monks quickly formed a circle around a precise intersection

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Speaker 2: of two main streets in Saigon. A car drove up,

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Speaker 2: two young monks got out of it. An older monk,

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Speaker 2: leaning a bit on one of the younger ones also

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Speaker 2: got out. He headed right for the center of the intersection.

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Speaker 2: The two young monks brought up a plastic jerry can,

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Speaker 2: which proved to be gasoline. As soon as he seated himself,

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Speaker 2: they poured the liquid all over him. He got out

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Speaker 2: a man book lighted it and dropped it in his

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Speaker 2: lap and was immediately engulfed in flames. And yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: you know what happened that day. Malcolm takes a picture

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Speaker 2: of He takes a bunch of pictures. You can see

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Speaker 2: all of them. There's a Good Time article Malcolm Brown,

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Speaker 2: the Story behind the Burning Monk, that has all of

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Speaker 2: the pictures that he took, or at least like a

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Speaker 2: long list of them. And they are worth seeing. They

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Speaker 2: are I shouldn't have to put a trigger warning in here, right,

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Speaker 2: these are photos of burning.

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Speaker 3: To death like that shit sucks can say from me. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: good god, it doesn't look good. It looks really bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, obviously one of specifically one of the photos

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Speaker 2: you've probably seen it where like half of the monk's

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Speaker 2: face looks okay and the other half is just like

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Speaker 2: wreathed in fire. This goes like the sixties equivalent of

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Speaker 2: viral right. President Kennedy said of the photograph, no news

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Speaker 2: picture in history has generated so much emotion around the world.

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Speaker 5: Is that one?

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Speaker 2: And at the time it may have been true, and

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Speaker 2: it is. It is number one. It does have a

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Speaker 2: role in the anti war movement because you know, this

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Speaker 2: is related to a protest against the government we were backing.

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Speaker 2: But this is also one of the more successful, maybe

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Speaker 2: the most like directly successful cases of self immolation I've seen,

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Speaker 2: because this does play a significant role in the end

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Speaker 2: of Deem's presidency and his life. Right, So Duck leaves

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Speaker 2: a note, like a lot of these people do. In

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Speaker 2: his note, again is very clear minded. He ends it

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Speaker 2: by saying, before closing my eyes and moving towards the

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Speaker 2: vision of the Buddha, I respectfully plead to President no

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Speaker 2: Dndem to take a mind of compassion towards the people

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Speaker 2: of the nation and admit implement religious equality to maintain

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Speaker 2: the strength of the homeland eternally. Yeah, when this kind

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Speaker 2: of happens, as I quoted earlier, Kennedy is like shocked

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Speaker 2: and furious. He yells to his National security advisor, who

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Speaker 2: the fuck are these people? Like how did we not

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Speaker 2: know this was going to happen? He's very angry about

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Speaker 2: all this.

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Speaker 3: Buddhist is like, I feel like, like, that's the kind I.

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Speaker 2: Actually have trouble imagining, like JFK having a significant amount

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Speaker 2: of context as to like what buddhismss.

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Speaker 4: God.

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Speaker 6: But maybe maybe I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: So I want to quote from this a really good

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Speaker 2: medium article, the suicide that changed American policy in Vietnam

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Speaker 2: by a Poorva Tadepali, And this is for a series

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Speaker 2: they write called near Pot, which is an interactive classroom

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Speaker 2: tool for students. And I found this a very readable

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Speaker 2: and concise description of kind of what happened after Dook's

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Speaker 2: self immolation quote. The publicity of the incident increased pressure

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Speaker 2: on DM's government to deal with the crisis, but he

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Speaker 2: did not take the incident seriously enough. His response to

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Speaker 2: the death was an announcement on the radio later that

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Speaker 2: day that wildly missed the point. The state of affairs

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Speaker 2: was moving forward so smoothly, he said, bizarrely, when this

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Speaker 2: morning acting under extremist in truth concealing propaganda, that's so

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Speaker 2: doubt about the goodwill of the government. A number of

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Speaker 2: people got intoxicated and caused an undeserved death that made

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Speaker 2: me very sorry.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I a lot of terrible statements about.

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Speaker 2: It is this guy. We need to do the Bastards

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Speaker 2: episode on him, because damn is like he's horrible. He

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Speaker 2: causes a lot of damage to a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: but he's such a fucking scrub, right yeah, like fucking

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Speaker 2: Stalin would never you know, like the old Geese, very

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Speaker 2: sad You think Saddam Hussein would have gotten caught up

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Speaker 2: in that ship? No, not, my man.

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Speaker 3: Listen, this is like this is bush ling shit, even

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Speaker 3: by like fucking like East Asian dictators, Like can you sheck?

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Speaker 2: Like noah, no, kay sheck wouldn't have gotten caught up

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Speaker 2: in this ship.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely sheck.

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Speaker 3: If someone had tried to do this specifically, chink chanky

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Speaker 3: sheck would have shot the guy himself.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, Oh my god. So anyway this scrub he makes,

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Speaker 2: he makes like a prom that they're going to do

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Speaker 2: reforms and stuff. And like while he's doing this, his family,

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Speaker 2: including his brother Knew, who's like the head of the

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Speaker 2: Saigon Secret Police, is basically is saying like like literally says,

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Speaker 2: if the Buddhists want to have another barbecue, I'll be

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Speaker 2: glad to supply the gasoline. Is Christ and his wife,

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Speaker 2: who's like a very merry antoinette figure, Madam Knew who

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Speaker 2: is it's his brother's wife, but she's basically the first

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Speaker 2: lady right of South Vietnam. She's like, let them burn,

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Speaker 2: We'll clap our hands.

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Speaker 4: Oh god.

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Speaker 2: So it's pretty it's pretty cool. Like DM is actually

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Speaker 2: kind of the smart one in the family because he's

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Speaker 2: trying to like tell his sister in law and his

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Speaker 2: brother in law like nah, bra Or, and his brother

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Speaker 2: and his sister in law, like, you guys don't understand.

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Speaker 2: We have to be a little bit careful here. This

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Speaker 2: could really go badly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It really seems like like they haven't figured out the

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Speaker 3: playbook for dealing with this yet. No, because like the

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Speaker 3: successive governments, like everyone has like the same line that

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Speaker 3: they say when it happens, and these people, it looks

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Speaker 3: like they're really kind of scrambling here.

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Speaker 2: They didn't have any They'd never been considered that something

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Speaker 2: like this could happen, there would be reactions to their

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Speaker 2: policies like this. There are a bunch of protests by

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Speaker 2: monks and nuns of the police arrest a bunch of people.

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Speaker 2: This continues to draw outrage and make the system a

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Speaker 2: situation worse new the secret police guy has his his

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Speaker 2: goons like ransack and destroy a bunch of Buddhist temples.

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Speaker 2: Basically a lot of people, like fourteen hundred people are

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Speaker 2: like rounded up and arrested. DM accuses the monks of

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Speaker 2: being part of the Viet Cong, which is again like sure,

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Speaker 2: such a.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that is important to understand

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Speaker 2: here is that this is at a very different part

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Speaker 2: stage of the Vietnam War. The US has troops in

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Speaker 2: the country, but not a lot, like very few compared

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Speaker 2: to how many are going to be there, and at

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Speaker 2: this stage DM actually isn't happy that we have even

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Speaker 2: though it's going to become very clear that like the

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Speaker 2: US troops the only thing allowing this regime to stay

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Speaker 2: propped up. He is like, I don't want them here.

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Speaker 2: They don't even have passports, right, Like, he's he's like

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Speaker 2: weirdly anti the like, And part of it is because

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Speaker 2: the US is about to act here finally to take

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Speaker 2: support away from his regime. So three days after his buddy,

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Speaker 2: his brother in law or his brother Knu has a

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Speaker 2: bunch of raids on these Buddhist temples, there's a cable

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Speaker 2: sent from DC to the US ambassador in Southern Vietnam

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Speaker 2: that's like, we're not backing this guy anymore. And this

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Speaker 2: ends with a bunch of South Vietnamese generals who had

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Speaker 2: already been planning a coup being given the go ahead

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Speaker 2: from the US basically saying like, we're not Our guys

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Speaker 2: are not going to take any actions to stop you

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Speaker 2: from overthrowing this guy. And on November two, DM and

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Speaker 2: his brother are kidnapped while trying to escape and they

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Speaker 2: are killed not long after. So this is, you know,

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Speaker 2: pretty successful self the militia. You have to say, right, yeah, yeah, works,

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Speaker 2: seems like it works about as well as you could

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Speaker 2: have hoped for that, right, like the at least I'm

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Speaker 2: sure as as well as that monk hoped. Because you know,

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Speaker 2: DM is not just out of power, but is fucking

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Speaker 2: killed as a result of this.

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Speaker 4: So ohough, the problem is the subsequent people he has

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Speaker 4: put in charge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, also suck. But that's that's also part of a pattern, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: And there's like a weirdly there's like a history of

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Speaker 2: self immolation leading to gme change. We're gonna talk about

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Speaker 2: Tunisia at the end of the episode, and that does

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Speaker 2: tend to be the story of like, yeah, we got

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Speaker 2: rid of the dictator and then a guy who sucked

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Speaker 2: that's as much came into power.

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Speaker 4: Hey, well, the the Tai one one we're going to

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Speaker 4: talk about in a second.

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Speaker 2: Actually, yes, pretty well, yeah, yeah, And before we go

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Speaker 2: into that, because we're gonna let you take over from

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Speaker 2: hearing me, or at least for the next couple of

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Speaker 2: parts of this. But first let's let our advertisers take

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Speaker 2: over and we're back, all right, Mia, you are on deck.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, I think I think people are kind of broadly aware,

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Speaker 3: kind of if you know anything about self immolations, about

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Speaker 3: the self emilations in Vietnam, and then also the sort

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Speaker 3: of the ones in the US, like as as anti

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Speaker 3: Vietnam War protests, the ones that I don't think most

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Speaker 3: people here know and that I only know about, like

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Speaker 3: because like my mom was born in Taiwan, right, is

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Speaker 3: the Taiwanese self immalations. Yeah, so this guy's name is

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Speaker 3: Jan Yong Rong. He is he's also noticed the thing

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Speaker 3: most people call him is Nylon Jung for reasons that

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Speaker 3: I guess will become clear when he lights himself on fire.

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Speaker 3: So Nylon Jung is a very very influential Uh well, okay,

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Speaker 3: I don't know very very influential is Quator, but he's

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Speaker 3: like a he's a pretty famous and very influential pro

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Speaker 3: independence activist in Taiwan during the KMT's occupation there, And

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Speaker 3: this is something I don't like. Americans tend to not

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Speaker 3: understand this very well. So okay, So the the KMT

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Speaker 3: is the Chinese nationalist party. They take power in Taiwan

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Speaker 3: after just invading it effectively. They when when they when

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Speaker 3: they lose the civil war, the KMT is like cremating forces,

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Speaker 3: and a bunch of their supporters like flee to Taiwan.

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Speaker 3: And there are there are like three groups of people

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Speaker 3: who the KMT like spend most of their time killing,

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Speaker 3: and that is communist feminists and Taiwanese independence activists. They

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Speaker 3: also hate Presbyterians for reasons that are.

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Speaker 2: Hey, hey, we all hate Presbyterians, am I right?

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Speaker 4: Okay to it.

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Speaker 3: Look, look, I am not normally a presbyterianker. The Taiwanese

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Speaker 3: Presbyterians like legitimately do good work in the sense that

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Speaker 3: they are like one of the groups that's like pretty

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Speaker 3: important in bringing down the KMT one party dictatorship. But okay,

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Speaker 3: so Taiwan has this like really appalling like one party dictatorship.

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Speaker 3: Nylon jungk is actually born I think I'm remembering, is right.

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Speaker 3: He's born like during the February twenty eighth incident, which

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Speaker 3: is this thing in nineteen forty seven actually where we

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Speaker 3: are two days I think when this goes out will

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00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,919
Speaker 3: be two days after the seventy seventh anniversary of it,

396
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Speaker 3: where there's there's a giant uprising in Taiwan because the

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Speaker 3: like people in Taiwan fucking hate the KMT because they

398
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Speaker 3: suck and they murder people, and there's this giant uprising

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Speaker 3: and the KMT eventually like their military forces get reorganized

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Speaker 3: and they so the initial uprising takes most of the islands,

401
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Speaker 3: and then the KMG just come back and kill everyone.

402
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Speaker 3: They kill about twenty thousand people in a week. It's

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Speaker 3: one of the sort of like I don't know, one

404
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Speaker 3: of the kind of like defining incidents and what becomes

405
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Speaker 3: sort of Taiwanese national culture. It's just this like massacre

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Speaker 3: and then you know, it's basically it's legal to talk

407
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Speaker 3: about afterwards. This is this is the beginning of the

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Speaker 3: sort of white terror in China, and they're gonna you know,

409
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Speaker 3: and this is the start of the KMT kidnapping and

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Speaker 3: torturing like tens of thousands of people. One of the

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Speaker 3: things that happens in this this is actually so this

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Speaker 3: is this was my family's experience of it, is that Okay,

413
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Speaker 3: so there's there's this up there's the uprising, right, but

414
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Speaker 3: one of the things that starts happening pretty quickly is

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Speaker 3: these like retaliatory killings against like against Chinese nationals. And

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Speaker 3: that was stuff my family was like, yeah, we like

417
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Speaker 3: couldn't go outside because if you leave your house, like

418
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Speaker 3: you're gonna get killed by mobs and that stuff. That

419
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Speaker 3: stuff like sucked.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that that does sound like it sucked.

421
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Speaker 3: No, it's not good because it's the thing because it's

422
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Speaker 3: it's weird because it's like that uprising like broadly good,

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Speaker 3: but it turns into like parts of it turned into

424
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Speaker 3: race riots or like why it's weird, Like I don't know,

425
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Speaker 3: it turns into these like anti Chinese national like riots

426
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Speaker 3: and that stuff.

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Speaker 4: You know.

428
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Speaker 3: So Jong is from a Chinese like like just from

429
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Speaker 3: like a sort of like Chinese national family that like

430
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,439
Speaker 3: fled to Taiwan after the war, and his family is

431
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Speaker 3: protected by other Taiwanese like like uprising people who are

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Speaker 3: like no, like we're not gonna fucking just kill these

433
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Speaker 3: random Chinese, see, but like what are you guys talking about?

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Speaker 3: And that's this really formative thing for him, where when

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Speaker 3: this one that caused him to grow up to become

436
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Speaker 3: like the kind of Chinese like Taiwanese independence activist that

437
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 3: he is. Where he's one of these people who is

438
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 3: really big on Taiwan as like like like liberating Taiwan

439
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 3: as a nation but having it be like a nation

440
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 3: of ideals not a nation of blood because his you know,

441
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 3: because he sees how badly this kind of like ultnationalist

442
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 3: bloodline like shit can go. And so he becomes like

443
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 3: a pretty prominent independence activist. He runs one of the

444
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 3: anti party newspapers. Like anti canteen newspapers, and he's he's

445
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: mostly doing a lot of this stuff in the eighties,

446
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 3: where so basically like you have two consecutive like like

447
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 3: the Shankai check and then you have like more guys

448
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 3: from that family. By the eighties, you're like democratization is

449
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: kind of like slowly moving forward because the Taiwanese ruling

450
00:22:52,520 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 3: class losing American backing, They're losing backing overseas. But you know,

451
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,479
Speaker 3: even even by sort of nineteen eighty nine, which is

452
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 3: in the period in which people are talking about like

453
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: wild democratization's happening, like it's going to go forward, the

454
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 3: country still has like they haven't had like real national elections,

455
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 3: and they still have these really really intense what are

456
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 3: called anti sedition laws and so one of the things

457
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 3: that the prone dependence activists. And this is the period

458
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: in which like Taiwan's like modern ruling party, the Democratic

459
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 3: Progressive Party like comes into existence or like they're coming

460
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 3: to existence as the anti KMT party. And this is

461
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 3: the sort of milieu kind of in which Dylon Jung

462
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: is sort of mobilizing, right, but he's also I don't know,

463
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 3: he's like he's the kind of guy that doesn't exist anymore,

464
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 3: which is like he's kind of like a like like

465
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 3: liberal progressive national liberation supporter. So I actually I found

466
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 3: a really interesting thing translated by jenhan Chan on this

467
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 3: guy a kind of am aware of from Twitter, who

468
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 3: translated this thing that he wrote about Palestine, where he

469
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 3: is a pro Palestine guy. But it's interesting because he

470
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 3: sees Palestine as like another nation that's been like subjugated

471
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: in like a similar way to Taiwan has. And you know,

472
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 3: and he's like an anti armed struggle guy, but he's

473
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 3: also very sort of he's very committed to Taiwanese independence

474
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 3: as a national liberation movement and specifically like the thing

475
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 3: that you're liberating it from is the KMT, and so

476
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: you know, he he gets into trouble constantly with like

477
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: the KMT government. They arrest in a bunch of times,

478
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 3: and eventually, in nineteen eighty nine, he gets charged with

479
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: these by these anti suisition laws. He gets charged with

480
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 3: insurrection for like spreading drafts of a potential to do

481
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: Taiwanese constitution, and so he barricades himself in his office,

482
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: refuses to show up to code. He gives this giant

483
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: speech about how like you'll never take me alive, and

484
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 3: the police kind of take him to so he's he's

485
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 3: barricaded himself in like his newspaper offices, and he's there

486
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 3: for like two months, and at the end of month two,

487
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: a cop who is the current mayor of New Taipei

488
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 3: City tries to burst down his door.

489
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: That doesn't seem like a job that you should be

490
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: able to have.

491
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 3: No, No, this is one of these things where it's like, okay,

492
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 3: So like the KMT, this is one of the things

493
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 3: about sort of Tony's politics that's weird that the KMT

494
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: is the modern sort of pro China promunification faction, Right,

495
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: those guys suck like like they're they're not they're not

496
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 3: the same sort of like just desk squad party they

497
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 3: were in the sort of late in like the twentieth century.

498
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 3: But they're also like yeah, no, it's literally they're mayor.

499
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 3: They're mayor of New Pipei, which is okay, I'm not

500
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 3: going to go into what the difference between Uchipei and

501
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 3: ip Pey is here. That's that's the whole thing.

502
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: I'm guessing. It's like the difference between you know, New

503
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: York and Old York. Right, it's it's it's closer to

504
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 2: the diference between New York City and New York. Okay, okay,

505
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 2: but that makes sense. Yeah that works.

506
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: Like this guy, this guy who again like was elected

507
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 3: like two years ago, tries to kick down his door

508
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 3: and Nylon Jung likes himself on fire. And this has

509
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 3: a enormous impact on the sort of subsequent course of

510
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 3: Tiwan his politics, because this is a this is a like,

511
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 3: this is a pr disaster for the like for the

512
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: ruling for like for the current government, which had been

513
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 3: trying to sort of like do its like ah, we're

514
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 3: doing moderate reforms, blah blah blah, we're doing you have

515
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 3: local elections.

516
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 4: Now we're doing democratization.

517
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: And suddenly, like their cops break down this guy's door

518
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 3: and he lights himself on fire. And you know that

519
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: the cop later says like, oh, yeah, we break down

520
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 3: the door because we were trying to save his life.

521
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 4: It's like, no, you didn't. What the fuck are you

522
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 4: talking about? Life?

523
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: I love things that have never happened. That's my favorite

524
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

525
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, so there this is one of

526
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 3: these things that and this is actually think that that's

527
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 3: become that's a very very common thing I protests. Like now,

528
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 3: so Nilon Jung has he has this massive funeral I mean,

529
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 3: this is an absolutely enormous funeral march, and the police

530
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 3: attack it. And when the police attack it, another pro

531
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 3: independence activist also lights himself on fire, like in front

532
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 3: of the cops when they refuse to do it. And

533
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: this that second guy is like a lot less remembered

534
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 3: than Nlon Jung. But this becomes a massive sort of

535
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: rallying cry around, like you know, for the pro dependence people,

536
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 3: but also for the sort of broader fight for like

537
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: an actual like actual free democratic elections. Like the big

538
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 3: thing these people were protesting like specifically was free speech

539
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 3: because the thing about the sedition laws is if you

540
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: you know again, if you start passing around copies of

541
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: the constitution, they try to arrest you and throw you

542
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: in prison.

543
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean nothing says sedition like the constitution of

544
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: the country you're in.

545
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like changing it, I guess is sedition. It's

546
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 3: like the KMT really sucked, like cannot emphasize that it off.

547
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: But the sort of the results of this is that,

548
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 3: you know, okay, like so this is one of these actions.

549
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: That's kind of complicated because the the arc of Taiwanese

550
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: politics was bending towards democratization in some kind of like

551
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 3: actual electoral system, and it probably would have happened even

552
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: without this, but this super charges the whole process. Within

553
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: about two years, two or three years, all the position

554
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: laws are appealed and within well, it takes a while

555
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: before you get I think, I think it's like two thousand.

556
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 4: I think it's like really when you can what you can.

557
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 3: Call like the first really free like Taiwanese national election,

558
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: when when there's actually like a transition of power between

559
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: the KMT and the Democratic Party.

560
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 4: Sure, but yeah, it was to a large extent very successful.

561
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 5: Like it.

562
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: No, okay, so it accomplished the goal of knocking off

563
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 3: the KMT sort of one party state. It knocked off

564
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 3: his edition laws. The kind of Taiwanese independence like that's

565
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: very very sort of national liberation driven is kind of

566
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: not the same one that exists in time one now

567
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: it's a bit different. But on the other hand, like, yeah,

568
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: they they did it. It was it was really it

569
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: was pretty effective, and yeah, I don't know, like this

570
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 3: is this is I of the ones that I've seen.

571
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: I think this was the most clear he won. Nolan

572
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 3: Jung's like is sort of to this day a pro

573
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: dependence hero. There's there's a there's a statue of him.

574
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: Uh so they they I think that I think I'm

575
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: pretty surely they turned the office we let himself on

576
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 3: fire like into a into a like into a museum,

577
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 3: and there's there's a there's a very famous sort of

578
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: like pictures of these the.

579
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 4: Statue of his burned corpse. That's just horrowing.

580
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: It's one of the symbols of the sort of Taiwanese

581
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: democratic movements, and it's also it's also a sort of.

582
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 4: It matters a lot. This is also happening in the

583
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 4: same year as Tanneman.

584
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,239
Speaker 2: Like yeah, so there's that kind of like it's in

585
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 2: the air, right yeah.

586
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and his his widow goes on to be a

587
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 3: DPP politician and it's one of it's one of the

588
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: things that it's it's like his memories invoked dream like.

589
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: So in twenty fourteen, Taiwan had their own version of

590
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: occupy that's like shittier called the Sunflower Movement. I'm sorry,

591
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 3: this is this is where we're getting into the Mia

592
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: has a bunch of political beefs with people in Taiwan

593
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: where I think they're all libs, but it's yeah, like

594
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 3: they have their own sort of they have like this

595
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: this large series of street protests and this like he's

596
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 3: one of the figures that's you know, one of like

597
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: brought up in as.

598
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's gonna be the same thing with the guy

599
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: in t an Asia. We're about to talk about two

600
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: where where they become even to people that they would

601
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: not you know, certainly we're not like expressing similar their views,

602
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: they still become this like icon that gets sided. Yeah.

603
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I I think I think the last thing

604
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: too is he's the fact that the cop who kicked

605
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: at it, who kicked his door down, is now the

606
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 3: fucking mayor of New type A City is just like

607
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: oh appalling stuff. Yeah, the KMG absolutely suck uh. And

608
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: those are the people who want Taiwan to be reunified

609
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: with China. So if that understands who you're making your

610
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 3: bed with, if that's the kind of politics that you

611
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: you want to be engaged in, Yeah, So that's that's

612
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: that's that's that's the time I want self emlations. I

613
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 3: guess kind of I don't know, not enough bad things

614
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 3: happened to the cops who trigger this kind of stuff,

615
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 3: which although I guess I guess the cops is Southiaknam

616
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 3: didn't do great.

617
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: No no, no, I mean ultimately right, it doesn't immediately

618
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: really cause them any problem. One Secret Police a bit.

619
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: Speaking of Secret Police, this podcast is sponsored entirely by

620
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: the Secret Police, so you know, check that out and

621
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: we're back. Yeah, we just got beaten by phone books

622
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: because they don't leave any bruises by our sponsors at

623
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: the Secret Police. So you know, the Secret Police like

624
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: the police. But Secret Mia, did you have another one

625
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: you wanted to get into before we talk about Tunisia?

626
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 4: Do we want to do Tibet first? Or do we

627
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 4: want to do Tuenisia first?

628
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: Why don't we do Tibet?

629
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think other than Tunisia, I think the

630
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: most famous wave of self im relations was the ones

631
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: in Tibet that started in about two thousand and nine.

632
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: There is actually a guy into Better Life self on

633
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 3: Fire in the late nineties, but that doesn't have the

634
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: same kind of sort of doesn't have the same effect

635
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 3: as the two thousand and nine ones. So one of

636
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: the things that's been periodically happening. I guess over the

637
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: sort of course of the history of sort of occupied

638
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 3: Tibet is the Dalai Lama. So the Dalai Lama like flees.

639
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 3: There's this whole giant drama nineteen fifty nine. So so okay,

640
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 3: I guess, I guess I should go back to the beginning.

641
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: So Tibet is just like straight up invaded by China.

642
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: When when the after the Communists win the civil war,

643
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: this causes an enormous amount of shit to happen. One

644
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 3: of the things that the Communist Party is trying to

645
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: do is they are trying to gain control of the

646
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: Tibetan religious system so that they can eliminate the religious

647
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 3: system like they can they can eliminate like the Buddhist

648
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 3: clergy is effectively, like they can eliminate Buddist munks. They

649
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: can eliminate like the religious institutions as a source of

650
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: resistance to them. They're kind of foiled in this when

651
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: the Dalai Lama makes this break and escapes to India.

652
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 3: And this is one of the things that triggers eventually

653
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 3: in the in the sixties China's war with India. But

654
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 3: one of the things that I've been happening for a

655
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: while was these kind of negotiations between the Dalai Lama

656
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 3: and the Chinese government to try to like find a

657
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: kind of resolution to like how bad things were into Bet.

658
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,479
Speaker 3: And in two thousand and nine, Dalai Lama goes, yeah,

659
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: none of this is fucking working, like it's not nothing,

660
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 3: Like we're not we're not getting anything. The Chinese government

661
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 3: is not offering us any like any actual deal that

662
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 3: we can live with. And pretty quickly this so, okay,

663
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 3: you get this giant wave of self in relations. The

664
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: first guy, this guy named Tape, he is a monk.

665
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 3: He lights himself on fire in two thousand and nine.

666
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 3: There's conflicting reports.

667
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 5: Okay.

668
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 3: So one of the problems with talking about this is

669
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: that in this period, the internet is not as widespread

670
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: as it is today, and there is a there is

671
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 3: a giant like there was a Chinese like media cordon

672
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 3: effectively on on Tibet in a very similar way to

673
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: like West Papua, where they like they won't let journalists in.

674
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 3: It is very hard to get information out. So the

675
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 3: thing that I'm about to say is something that is

676
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: reported a lot on the time by people who try

677
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 3: who are trying to smoke the messages out. And the

678
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 3: thing they report is that as this guy is self imlating,

679
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: the Chinese police shoot him like multiple times.

680
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, as we've as we've seen recently, that

681
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: is how cops tend to look at somebody like, yeah,

682
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: someone has let themselves on fire. Clearly what this situation

683
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: needs is a gun.

684
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: And and you know, okay, so like the Chinese police

685
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 3: they there, I don't I don't have any evidence of

686
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 3: them shooting people after that. They absolutely one of the

687
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 3: things that so what happens after this is this wave

688
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: of self immolations is protests across the bed. The thing

689
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: that they absolutely do a lot is start beating the

690
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 3: person who's on fire the stick, like using like riot

691
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 3: sticks sometimes.

692
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 4: They have these.

693
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: They have riot sticks with like spikes on them, and

694
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 3: they are absolutely beating people to death while they are

695
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: burning to death. The Chinese police are like as psychology,

696
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 3: maybe not quite as like absolutely murderous as the American police,

697
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 3: but they are like they are beating a burning man

698
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: to death.

699
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 4: Right that is.

700
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: Oh god, I will say that is that is definitely

701
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 2: I haven't that certainly, I can't think of anything I've

702
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 2: ever seen US police do that is more violent than

703
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: beat a man to death while he's on fire. Yeah,

704
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: that's up there. That makes the cut.

705
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 4: It's really bad.

706
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: And this is the kind of thing that you know,

707
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: I mean, this is this is the kind of thing

708
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 3: that that sets off these self in relations in the

709
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: first place, which is that to Bet has you know,

710
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 3: like has has a colonial occupation, right it has. You know,

711
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 3: the Chinese government has been attempting to suppress to Bet

712
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: and Buddhism. There's been a massive way like systemic, massive

713
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 3: ecological struction of the Tibetan plateau so that the Chinese

714
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: government can like mine gold and shit. And in a

715
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: way that's very similar to sort of like the ecological

716
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 3: demonstation you get in places like the Amazon. There are

717
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: you know, there they are intense police crack downs all

718
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: the time. There's another very famous incident that's like kind

719
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: of one of the things that leads to this, where

720
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty nine there's there's a bunch of protests

721
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: in Tibet and the cops just start shooting them. They

722
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: kill a bunch of people, and so you know, and

723
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 3: people had been like up in twent two thousand and

724
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: nine people that kind of had this promise that things

725
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 3: were going to get better because you know, you have

726
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 3: these negotiations between the Chinese government and the Dalai Lama,

727
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 3: and then the Dalai Lama turns around and goes, yeah, no,

728
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: they're not giving us anything.

729
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 4: Like they're giving us nothing. The Chinese states policy on

730
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 4: Tibet is that effectively, we're going to like we're we're going,

731
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 4: we're going we're going.

732
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 7: To like.

733
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: We're going to try to make these people Han effectively.

734
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 3: One of the things they spend and they do this

735
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 3: in change On too, is they spend a lot of

736
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 3: there's a lot of resources invested in getting like settlers

737
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: from other parts of China to booths bet you know,

738
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: and you know, as as it's you also and change

739
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: on like the like the cadre jobs are basically all

740
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: like government cadre jobs are basically all Han people. And

741
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 3: so you know, you start getting you start getting attempts

742
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 3: a civil disobedience. There are these giant protests in two

743
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: thousand and eight, like attempting to make as sort of

744
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: like a giant have a giant thing happened right before

745
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: the Olympics in order to get international support and those

746
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 3: turn into riots, and those are brutally suppressed. And once

747
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 3: that happens, people are really kind of they're running out

748
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: of options for civil disobedience because you know, and this

749
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 3: is one of one of these things about this kind

750
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: of Buddhism is that it's it's very much a like

751
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 3: they're the resistance tradition is nonviolence, right, like these people

752
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 3: sometimes like very very rarely you get riots, but they're

753
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 3: not like they're not going to try or arm struggle,

754
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: and so what they have is non violence civil disobedience.

755
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 3: But the problem is that if you try to do

756
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: non violence will do obedience in China, what happens to

757
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 3: you is just the cops show up and arrest you all,

758
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 3: and then they rest your families. And this is something

759
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 3: that happens to the people who self emilate, is that

760
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: there are like one hundred and sixty of them from

761
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine until now. And when someone lights

762
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 3: themself on fire, what the Chinese government does is well,

763
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 3: a they beat the person to death while they're on fire.

764
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: By they start arresting the people's family, they start arresting

765
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 3: their friends, they start arresting people in the monasteries that

766
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 3: they're at they start doing these purges to like stop

767
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 3: like to remove the sort of Buddhist monks they think

768
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: are going to be problems. And this fuels this kind

769
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: of cyclical wave of this because on the one hand,

770
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: you know, there's this incredible repression going on. On the

771
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 3: other hand, it's not possible to like wage really like

772
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: wage other kinds of mass so dis obedience campaigns. And

773
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: the thing about lighting yourself on fire is that the

774
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 3: government can't stop it, right, Like in theory, you could

775
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: maybe trained police to stop people from blighting people on fire.

776
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 3: But the thing is, the actual thing that happens when

777
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 3: you light when someone lights themself on fire, is the

778
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: cop goes and beats them. And so it becomes this

779
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: sort of it becomes the sort of like the cycle

780
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: of self in relations. And also, I mean the other

781
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 3: thing that's worth mentioning too is people. There are a

782
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 3: few other cases of Tibetan Buddhists, like outside of outside

783
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 3: of the better you do it, there's a few people

784
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 3: in India and you let themselves on fire, and I

785
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 3: don't know, I think the Tibetan example is really bleak

786
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 3: because it doesn't work, like they lose and this is

787
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 3: one of these situations where I don't know, like I

788
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 3: legitimately don't know how they could have won, because they

789
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 3: were dealing with a enormous, a very very powerful state

790
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 3: apparatus that was very invested in using all of its

791
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: state capacity to trust.

792
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 4: Them, and.

793
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 3: It it fails and it it but like the thing

794
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 3: that it mostly accomplishes is a bunch of is like

795
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 3: just a generation of well, I mean some like the

796
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 3: youngest kid who self inlights is fifteen, right, and it

797
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 3: mostly accomplishes a bunch of these kids like themselves on

798
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 3: fire and die and everything is worse now than it

799
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 3: was in two thousand and nine. Yep, I think, you know.

800
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 3: So they're very recently they're been big. They've been protesting

801
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 3: to bed again because the CCP is trying to build

802
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 3: a damn that's going to flood and destroy a bunch

803
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 3: of monasteries. And I don't think anyone's let themselves on

804
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 3: fire over it, but the police just arrested everyone, and so.

805
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 4: I don't know.

806
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: It's really bleak, And I think the freeze Bat movement

807
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 3: has become much weaker as the sort of like twenty

808
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: tens went on to the point where now, I think

809
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 3: like most America, like most of the sort of like

810
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 3: broad American far left basically just takes the Chinese line

811
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 3: on it, which is that like the Dalai Lama was

812
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 3: a slave owner and the Chinese occupation was a gift.

813
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Like I.

814
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 3: Want to take like two, like a couple like a

815
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 3: minute to talk about this because like that a lot.

816
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

817
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 3: And it's this thing where, like, you know, it's really

818
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: interesting looking at a lot of these people who are

819
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 3: who are anti Tibet but pro Palestine, because you know,

820
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 3: if you look at the originators et cetera colonial studies,

821
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: like people like Patrick Wolfe, right, who was like the

822
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: godfather of cetera colonialism studies, Tibet is one of the

823
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: states that he holds up like as the paradigmatic example

824
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 3: of of what cetera colonialism is. It's Palestine and Tibet, right,

825
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: And you know, I like the thing about oh it

826
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 3: was because they were trying to like free the Tibetan

827
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 3: search really pisses me off because if that was the

828
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: actual thing the CCP wanted to do, they could have

829
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 3: done a thing that happened all over the fucking world

830
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 3: in communist countries, which is they could have moved in,

831
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: they could have knocked off the government, and they could

832
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 3: have set up a communist Tibetan state.

833
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 8: Right.

834
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 3: This happens all over the fucking Eastern Bloc. There's precedents

835
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 3: for it in East Asia, which you know, there's a

836
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: president of Mongolia, which was also i mean a very

837
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: different Buddhist society, but also in largely Buddhist society, where

838
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 3: the Soviet Union went in, knocked off the government and

839
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 3: set off set up an independent Mongolian state.

840
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: Right.

841
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 3: And I'm not going to say things like went great

842
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 3: form Mongolia, but the thing is, if if your actual

843
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 3: objective is just knock off a theocratic government that you

844
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 3: don't like, you could have done that, and they don't,

845
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: they don't do it, it's pretty China.

846
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: It's also worth like stating like, yeah, things maybe not

847
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: like didn't work out great in the immediate term for Mongolia,

848
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: but Mongolia is a state right now, is not like

849
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: the worst. It's not doing as badly as like Tibet

850
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: is doing, you know, like it's it's an independent country

851
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: that functions more or less. Yeah, and who does better

852
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: than functioning more or less?

853
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 3: Really yeah, Like and this I don't know, and this

854
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: is this is the sort of that's and that's one

855
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 3: of the things that like Chinese nationalists tend not to

856
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 3: really use that line. I mean, they use it a

857
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 3: bit when when they're when they're personally like when they

858
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: have to like specifically make arguments about the Dalai Lama,

859
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 3: that's something they do. But most of the arguments that

860
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,720
Speaker 3: the that the actual like supporters of the Chinese government

861
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 3: in China, the arguments they make is like, oh, well,

862
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 3: these people are like, these people are shitty barbarians and

863
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 3: we have to like we have to civilize them, and

864
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: like our invasion was a gift to them because we're

865
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 3: going to civilize these people. And like it's it's literally

866
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: it's like identical to the ship that like the Israeli

867
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: say about Palestinians. We should also very briefly mention that

868
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: a lot of the surveillance technology that's used in Tibet,

869
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: like our cameras, that the Chinese government sells to Palestine.

870
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: So keep that shit in mind. Yeah, And I don't know,

871
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: but it's it's this This is one of the really

872
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 3: bleak examples because the thing about self immolation as of

873
00:44:54,680 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: politics is that like it functions by mobile someone else, right,

874
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 3: And in some cases that's that's you know, that's another government,

875
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: in some cases that's your own government, in some cases

876
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 3: that's the people around you. But if you're in a

877
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 3: state where the government does not give a shit about

878
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 3: you and they have the ability to ruthlessly repress anyone

879
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 3: who's inspired by your actions, it just it leads to

880
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: a lot of people dying. And I don't know what

881
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 3: this sort of lesson from that is other than it's

882
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 3: really hard for and this is this is the thing

883
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 3: with Hong Kong too, is it's it's really hard for

884
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 3: any one, any one part of China to try to

885
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,919
Speaker 3: go into revolt against the government because there's so much

886
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 3: more of the rest of China, and if if you,

887
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 3: if you, if you alone, are pitted against the entire

888
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 3: mighty of Chinese state that has brought popular backing your fucked.

889
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really bleak.

890
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't have anything positive to

891
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: say there. Hey, everybody, Robert here. Our discussion ran very long,

892
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 2: So this is going to be a two parter. You'll

893
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: be hearing about Tunisia and more in the next episode,

894
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: but for now, please continue listening. To our podcasts and

895
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 2: not other podcasts, because how would you do that? Who

896
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: would do that? Nobody?

897
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 5: I like.

898
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 2: Everyone. Robert Evans here back to introduce it could happen

899
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: here Part two of my discussion with me along of

900
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: the history of self immolation protests. We'll be starting with

901
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: Tunisia in this one and then moving on from there,

902
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 2: so please buckle up and listen in. But I will

903
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 2: of us on to talking about Tunisia, which is the

904
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: last place we will talk about self immolation protest.

905
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 4: Oh, I want to end. I guess a bit. I

906
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 4: want to end after you talk about Tunisia with one

907
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 4: in China. That kind of worked.

908
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well that'll be nice. So there was a

909
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: you know, Tunisia existed for most of the like twenty

910
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: first century under a dictator. This state of affairs changed

911
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 2: for unfortunately a fairly limited period of time. On December seventeenth,

912
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: twenty ten, when a young man and he was twenty six,

913
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: Mohammed was Zizi, went out to sell fruit. And you know,

914
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: Mohammed lived in a very poor region, a very poor

915
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: part of Tunisia, the city of cd Boozid. It's about

916
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: one hundred miles south of Tunis, which is the capital,

917
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 2: and like a lot of people you know, in that

918
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: part of the world, it is not uncommon, particularly for

919
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: young men, because unemployment is so high, for young men

920
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: to kind of make their living doing a mix of

921
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 2: odd jobs and like odd vending, right where you're just

922
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 2: kind of like selling whatever you can get your hands

923
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: on and think that you can make a profit on

924
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: because there's not jobs in the traditional sense, and because

925
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: political corruption was so horrific in the state at that

926
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: point in time. It's one of those things where most

927
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 2: everybody who's out there selling shit on the street is

928
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: breaking the law by doing it, right, because you can't

929
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: get the permit because the permit is basically a bribe

930
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: and you can't afford the bribe, right, That's how a

931
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: lot of this stuff works. So you know, Mohammed kind

932
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 2: of prior to this, he had been his friends. When

933
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: you read interviews people who knew him, he was always

934
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 2: like one of these guys who was like really upbeat

935
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 2: and funny. His nickname basically meant like funny man in town.

936
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 2: And this had started to change, like friends noticed like

937
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 2: a couple of years before, you know, twenty ten, when

938
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: he's in hits his mid twenties and starts getting into

939
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 2: his late twenties that he's like, it is impossible to

940
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: get by as a young man. There are no jobs

941
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: for us, there's no future. I don't feel at all

942
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 2: like I have no nothing to be hopeful for. Right.

943
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people can understand empathized with

944
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: where he was coming from. So he goes out to

945
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: self fruit and this municipal inspector fight a Humdi sees him,

946
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,919
Speaker 2: realizes he doesn't have a permit and takes his shit right,

947
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 2: and there are accounts that he hits him too. Basically

948
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 2: he's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? You're not

949
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: paying your god damn bribe and like smacks him around.

950
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: So this is kind of the breaking point foruzz Easy.

951
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 2: He goes to the police station because he's got like

952
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 2: this scale that he's using to weigh out fruit and

953
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 2: stuff that he wants to get back it had been confiscated.

954
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: He like can't work without it, and they tell him like,

955
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: fuck you, you're not getting shit back. So he says, like,

956
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: I want to meet with the governor and like plead

957
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 2: my case to the guy in charge, and they're like

958
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: fuck you. The governor doesn't want to see you, so

959
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 2: at about eleven thirty am, he takes his cart outside

960
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: of the governor's office. He pours I think lighter fluid

961
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 2: something flammable over his head and he lights himself on fire.

962
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 2: His cousin gets a call. Ali was easy gets a

963
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: call I guess from someone who was nearby and knew

964
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: them both and was like, Mohammad just lit himself on

965
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 2: fire in front of the governor's office, and Ali runs there,

966
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: sprints over to the governor's office with his smartphone and

967
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 2: he gets there in time to record his cousin's body

968
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 2: being taken into an ambulance. Protests start up after this,

969
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 2: almost immediately, people take to the street. I think it's

970
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 2: just everyone is living under the same regime. They're living

971
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 2: over all of these like fucking corrupt ass officials. Everyone

972
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: pieces together this.

973
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's also it's worth mentioning this is also

974
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: a period of massive increases food prices, Yes, which are

975
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 3: one of the big Like if you want, if you

976
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 3: want your protest to work, like spark plus rising food prices,

977
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: great way to get it to happen.

978
00:50:55,719 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 2: Yes, so you know the spark catches fire protests start up,

979
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: and they do not calm down. Part of why they

980
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: don't calm down is Ali was easy, stays out in

981
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: the street. He uploads footage of his cousin's body to Facebook,

982
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: and he takes footage of the protests too, and he

983
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: just starts sending shit to Al Jazeera. Right, So this this,

984
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: all of this footage he's taking like winds up on

985
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 2: television that evening, and by the next day other cities

986
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 2: in Tunisia are holding protests. And this is the kind

987
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 2: of thing where it's like, you know, we all saw this,

988
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: you know, obviously with a different cause in twenty twenty.

989
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes something happens that's so horrible that the whole country

990
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: takes to the streets. And that's what happens in Tunisia.

991
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 2: So the president at the time, basically a dictator, Zeen

992
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: l Abadin bin Ali, does the normal dictator thing. He

993
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: sends out and non dictators, right, we do it here too, Yeah, Yeah,

994
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: he sends the cops out to beat the shit out

995
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: of everybody. Right, But he's also he's you talked in

996
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: when we were talking about Vietnam about like the playbook,

997
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: and they didn't quite have it down. Part of the

998
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,479
Speaker 2: playbook is down because in addition to sending the cops

999
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 2: out to beat the shit out of people, he it's

1000
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 2: Basisi in the hospital because he lingers for a while, right,

1001
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: And he also has the officer, the guy who Slappedzizi arrested.

1002
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: You know, he's kind of desperately trying, like maybe this

1003
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 2: will call him everybody down. It does not. Waz EASi

1004
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 2: dies in the hospital a couple of days later, and

1005
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: the protests, which are known now as the Jasmin Revolution.

1006
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 2: It takes about a month, but they force beIN Ali

1007
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 2: to flee the country for Saudi Arabia and you know,

1008
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 2: successfully bring an end to his regime and the return

1009
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: of a democratic system. There are functional elections for a

1010
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 2: while in Tunisia. They gain a significant amount of like

1011
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: political freedom, Like there are some really significant inroads made

1012
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 2: in terms of like civil rights during this period immediately

1013
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:51,240
Speaker 2: after the Jasmin Revolution, but things also don't get better,

1014
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: at least not enough.

1015
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 5: Right.

1016
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: This is generally seen Tunisia as the start of the

1017
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: Arab Spring, and if you know anything about the rest

1018
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 2: the Arab Spring, this was also seen as like kind

1019
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: of the successful case, right, Like, shit didn't work out

1020
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,800
Speaker 2: very well. In Syria or in Egypt, but like, yeah, Bahrain,

1021
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: but here they got rid of the dictator and they

1022
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: gained a lot of civil rights, and that's great. The

1023
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 2: problem is that the other issues, the high food prices,

1024
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 2: the fact that unemployment is at a night maarish level,

1025
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: the fact that corruption was a hideous problem in Tunisia.

1026
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: This doesn't just go away, right, because it's deeper than

1027
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 2: the dictator.

1028
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 4: The culture.

1029
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 2: Whenever you have a culture of corruption like this, which

1030
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: is by the way, it's not just the Middle East

1031
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: that has to deal with this, but if you've spent

1032
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: time in the Middle East, one of the things that

1033
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: is really depressing is how massive and absolutely different, by

1034
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 2: the way, from the kind of corruption that we have

1035
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 2: in the West it is over there, the degree to

1036
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 2: which and you start to care about this not because

1037
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 2: you're getting fucked over as a tourist, because you really

1038
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 2: don't notice it much as a tourist. It's when you

1039
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 2: make friends in that country and you talk to them about, like,

1040
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: how many different people are constantly taking a little bit

1041
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: from them, right, and often not a little bit, like

1042
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 2: the degree to which regular people suffer because every single

1043
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 2: person who is quote unquote a government official is just

1044
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: soliciting for bribes. Is that's so much deeper than any

1045
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: one guy in charge, Right, That's something you can't just

1046
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: revolt your way out of it. Yeah.

1047
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 3: Like one of my professors in college, I don't know

1048
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 3: if you have actually wrote about it, but he's okay,

1049
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: long story, but he lived in Egypt for a long

1050
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: time and one of the things he would talk about is,

1051
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 3: like that is the concept of like the oddly powerful bureaucrat.

1052
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 3: So like the history was like like the guy who

1053
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 3: sells you tickets at like the train station in Cairo,

1054
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 3: Like that guy, if you don't fucking pay him, he

1055
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 3: can just say no and you can't get on a train.

1056
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 3: And there's just like so many layers of like this

1057
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 3: guy who controls this specific thing and thus can fuck

1058
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 3: you over unless you like do what he tells you,

1059
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 3: which is usually give money. Unfortunately, we need to go

1060
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 3: to ads. We'll be back in a second, and we're back.

1061
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's part of why it's more durable is

1062
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 2: it's not like you know, I think it's South Vietnam.

1063
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 2: You know, when DM was around, you had a lot

1064
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 2: of you have all this corruption, but a lot of

1065
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 2: it is top down, it is people who are loyal

1066
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 2: to the president. Right, A lot of the corruption in

1067
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 2: places like this is bottom up in that it's not

1068
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 2: a situation where all of these men who are so

1069
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 2: loyal to the dictator have this corrupt position. I mean,

1070
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: that's part of it. I'm not saying that it's not,

1071
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 2: but a lot of it is that, like, well, maybe

1072
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 2: it's technically my job to stop the guy who works

1073
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 2: at the train station from denying people entry if they

1074
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 2: don't bribe him. But if I do that, then maybe

1075
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 2: he's going to make a fuss about how I'm doing

1076
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: the same thing for like permits to fix your roof

1077
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 2: or whatever. Right, Like, it's so much more bottom up

1078
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 2: in a lot of way. And so the reason this

1079
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 2: matters is that like, shit doesn't really get better in Tunisia, right,

1080
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 2: And now that the so while all these problems continue,

1081
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 2: corruption continues to be an issue, high food prices continue

1082
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 2: to be an issue. Unemployment continued to be an issue,

1083
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 2: particularly for young men. Another thing that's changed is that

1084
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 2: now everyone has seen what's easy does has done and like,

1085
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 2: obviously he dies horribly, but one thing that happens is

1086
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 2: like his family moves to Canada, right, like they and

1087
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 2: this is I don't think fair to his family. I

1088
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 2: haven't seen evidence they were like corrupt or whatever, but

1089
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 2: like I think because of how like because they're able

1090
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 2: to like get out of this situation, it's seen as like, well,

1091
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 2: maybe if I do this, not only will that hurt

1092
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 2: whoever whatever, corrupt motherfucker you know, I'm angry at but

1093
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: maybe shit will work out for my family.

1094
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 5: Right.

1095
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: This is often not what actually happens, but there have

1096
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 2: been hundreds of self immolation cases in the last ten

1097
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: years in Tunisia. It has become you might compare it

1098
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 2: to kind of mass shootings in the United States. Not

1099
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 2: on a moral level, you're not doing nearly the same thing.

1100
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 2: You're not hurting anyone else, but in terms of the

1101
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 2: fact that it is this this really really shocking event

1102
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 2: that then becomes kind of routine because people pick up

1103
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: on it as like, well, this is what you do

1104
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 2: in this situation.

1105
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 5: You know.

1106
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: One of the articles that I read for this was

1107
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: an AP News piece that interviews a guy named Hasni Kalea,

1108
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: who's one of the dudes, one of the many Tunisians

1109
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 2: who have attempted or succeeded in killing themselves through self

1110
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: e malation is an act of protest. Hasney survived, right,

1111
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:36,439
Speaker 2: and he did not survive without serious injury. Right now,

1112
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 2: he has to he covers his face at all times.

1113
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: His left hand he's lost a bunch of fingers. His

1114
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 2: right hand has no fingers at all anymore. He is

1115
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 2: just grievously injured as a result of this. And he said,

1116
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 2: when interviewed by the AP quote, I would never describe

1117
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: the act of self emolation as an act of courage,

1118
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 2: because even the bravest person in the world couldn't do it.

1119
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: When I poured the petrol over my head, I wasn't

1120
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 2: really conscious about what I was doing. Then I saw

1121
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 2: a flash, I felt my skin start to burn, and

1122
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: I fell down. I woke up eight months later in

1123
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 2: the hospital. And I found that really interesting, because there's

1124
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: a lot of talk right now, you know, with what

1125
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 2: Aaron Bushnell did about like principle and courage or mental

1126
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 2: illness or whatever, and like to what do we credit

1127
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 2: something that is so incomprehensible to most people. And I

1128
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 2: found what Hawsny says here really interesting because what he's

1129
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: saying is that like you can't even call it courage.

1130
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's almost like someone else is doing it.

1131
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 2: You were animated by such rage and hopelessness that it's

1132
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 2: almost like someone else is in control of your body.

1133
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: And I don't that doesn't sound like mental illness to

1134
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 2: me for certain. That sounds like someone that sounds like

1135
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 2: desperation of such an extent that it's mind altering. I

1136
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 2: don't know any other way to describe it than that.

1137
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying this is what goes through everybody's

1138
00:58:57,840 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 2: head when they self immalight. But you don't get a

1139
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 2: lot of inner use with those people after the fact,

1140
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:02,959
Speaker 2: right Yeah.

1141
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,919
Speaker 3: Well, like like there's some people who survive into Batan

1142
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 3: and it's like, well those guys, the Chinese government will

1143
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 3: not let anyone near them, right, Like, no, you know,

1144
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 3: and like I guess I should also I should have

1145
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 3: mentioned this about the Chinese government line on this is

1146
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 3: that it's very similar to what you see in the

1147
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 3: American presses like the well, no, you're you're seeing the

1148
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 3: terrorist stuff too here. But like the Chinese government line,

1149
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 3: and this line worked pretty well, is like these people

1150
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 3: were mentally ill, these people are terrorists or they were

1151
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 3: like misled by like the Dalai Lama who's like leading

1152
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 3: his people to the flames. Yeah, and that's been kind

1153
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 3: of the that's been kind of the playbook everywhere for this.

1154
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 3: That like the one, the one that kind of works

1155
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 3: is that one. It's it's you have to attack the

1156
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 3: moral character of the person because it's such an it's

1157
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 3: such an act of it's an inherently selfless.

1158
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 4: Selfless Yeah, so the only way to do it.

1159
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 2: You can't describe it anywhere else. They're lighting themselves on fire.

1160
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so and so they like, you know, the

1161
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 3: it's it's it's the the Roger Stone rat fucking thing

1162
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 3: of attack and where they're strong and you know, so

1163
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 3: it's the attack on the moral character that happens. I

1164
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 3: think the thing with Tunisia too is it's like, like

1165
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 3: the political alternative to this is this like rabid anti

1166
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 3: immigrant politics.

1167
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're like we'll talk about that in a second,

1168
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 2: but yeah, it doesn't end.

1169
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 5: Well.

1170
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 2: One thing I do want to hit on is the

1171
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 2: degree to which, again this kind of does function in

1172
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 2: Tunisia as like a mametic virus. Hawsny, the guy we

1173
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 2: heard from, survives, but his brother shortly thereafter lights himself

1174
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 2: on fire in an active protest and kills himself and

1175
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 2: his mother attempts to do the same, right like three

1176
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 2: members of the family all carrying out self immolation, and

1177
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 2: it is one of those things. This is listed as

1178
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 2: like an example of the tactic succeeding, and it does

1179
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 2: in terms of it, it gets the regime out of power.

1180
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: But things are not better in Tunisia, especially since so

1181
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 2: you know, there is a period of time where there

1182
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 2: is at least a functioning democracy and significant gains for

1183
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 2: civil rights, but because food still doesn't get affordable, there

1184
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: aren't jobs.

1185
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 4: A lot.

1186
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 2: You'll find a lot of articles from around twenty twenty,

1187
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 2: especially when people are like, yeah, I guess freedom's nice,

1188
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: but it's not really worth much if you're starving, you know, yeah,

1189
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 2: which you know I anyway, all of this leads in

1190
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 2: part to the coming to power of the guy who

1191
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: is currently leading Tunisia, Kiss Sayed. And as you noted, Mia,

1192
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: you know this guy is a populist. He is elected

1193
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 2: with seventy two percent of the vote. He frames himself

1194
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 2: like populis tinma do is like I am. You know,

1195
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: I'm outside the system. I'm going to help you take

1196
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 2: on the elite that have corruptly ruled our country. And

1197
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 2: he also is very anti migrant, right Tunisia. A lot

1198
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: of people who migrate into Europe do so through Tunisia

1199
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 2: just for geographical reasons, and he is blaming a lot

1200
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: of their problems on He does like great replacement shit

1201
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: that all these black migrants are causing our country's problems.

1202
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 2: He inspires a wave of violence against black people in

1203
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 2: Tunisia that's pretty hideous and horrific. And he has gained

1204
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 2: a significant amount of backing from particularly the Italian government,

1205
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 2: I think also the French government, because he's cracking down

1206
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 2: on migrants, right, and those migrants come to Italy and

1207
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 2: France and that's a problem for those governments. So they're

1208
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 2: supporting this guy, who, by the way, has turned himself

1209
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 2: into a dictator. All those gains Tunisia had in the

1210
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 2: Lake of the Arab Spring he has rolled back. He

1211
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 2: has centralized power, he has more or less destroyed the

1212
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 2: judiciary is something that's independent, you know, he is if

1213
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 2: he's not a dictator, he's not only that far from it,

1214
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 2: you know. And he's being supported by these these quote

1215
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 2: unquote democratic nations because well, I mean because racism, right, Yeah,

1216
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: same reason they support a Gadaffi, Like, yeah, when it

1217
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 2: comes to the politicians, it's a mixture of racism, and

1218
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 2: just like well, racism wins votes, and when it comes

1219
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 2: to like why racism win votes, it's back to racism,

1220
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 2: right anyway, So those are that's Tunisia more or less.

1221
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, we need to go to ads.

1222
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 3: We'll be back in a second, and we're back. Yeah,

1223
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 3: So well let's end on a slightly more positive note

1224
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 3: where well, so the line I was going to give

1225
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 3: was one about how like you know, I mean, this

1226
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 3: is the thing with Tunisia, right, is like you have

1227
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 3: this Tenizia has effectively structural.

1228
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 4: Unemployment rates of like thirty forty percent.

1229
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's and that's the thing that that's the

1230
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 3: thing that can't be solved without changing the economic system.

1231
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 2: Yep.

1232
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 3: If you you know, if you you can have your

1233
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 3: political revolution without your social revolution, you'll be right back

1234
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 3: to where you were in like ten years. The problem though,

1235
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 3: the other thing is you can have your social revolution

1236
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 3: and also end up in the same place, which is

1237
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 3: where we're going with with China. Where So one of

1238
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 3: the there's a very famous okay, I guess the place

1239
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 3: we should start with this is that one of the

1240
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 3: I've talked about this a bit on this show. One

1241
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 3: of the ways that labor works in China like structurally

1242
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 3: is that so you're a contractor, you work for contracting company.

1243
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 3: The contracting company is this like series of shell companies,

1244
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 3: and there's like a there's like there's a payday on

1245
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,480
Speaker 3: like New Years because that's when the like the financial

1246
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 3: like the year sort of rolls over and that's when

1247
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 3: you get paid. And so these companies are designed to

1248
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 3: specifically go out of business like the day before New Year,

1249
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 3: so they don't have to pay any of the workers

1250
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 3: for the work that they've done. And this leads to

1251
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 3: a rash of protests in China, like every single year

1252
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 3: on New on like New Year's Day, there's like this

1253
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 3: massive there's there's a protests like fucking everywhere because people

1254
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 3: have been screwed. It happens a lot with construction companies,

1255
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 3: and so there's a very like one of the very

1256
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 3: common tactics you see is people like standing on top

1257
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 3: of buildings holding banners saying like we're going to jump

1258
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 3: unless you guys like pay us. And so that that's

1259
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 3: kind of the background of this which is that that's like,

1260
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 3: that's a fairly common kind of like workers protests. In

1261
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, there's a delivery driver in Jungsu who

1262
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 3: he so something something I didn't really talk about the

1263
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 3: ten episodes is that China's economy is increasingly becoming a

1264
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 3: gig economy. And this has been this has been happening

1265
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 3: for a while now. And so this guy is a

1266
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 3: delivery driver for Ali Baba and he's like, he's like

1267
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 3: trying to change apps, and the app garnishes his wages

1268
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 3: and steals seven hundred dollars from him, and that's an

1269
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 3: enormous amount of money.

1270
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the app garnished his wages. As a sentence,

1271
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 2: that just makes me want to light something on fire.

1272
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 2: So I get why this would far protests.

1273
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he like tries to get it back and

1274
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 3: they don't give it to him, and he and he

1275
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 3: lights himself on fire and this turns into so he

1276
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 3: lets self on fire and then like this this is

1277
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 3: this is in twenty twenty one. This is the same

1278
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 3: year where that Temu employee falls over dead, like like

1279
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 3: dies in her bed from overwork, and also the same

1280
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 3: year when a Temou employee jumps off of the building

1281
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 3: because of over work. And this sets off like a

1282
01:05:55,680 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 3: giant kind of shift in the way that the Chinese

1283
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 3: public is thinking about labor, because up until this one,

1284
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 3: people have been, you know, like China. It's it's not

1285
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 3: it's nowhere near as bad as Anesia, but it also

1286
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 3: has this problem of like everyone works.

1287
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 4: Harder and harder.

1288
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 3: You're working, you're working nine nine six, right, You're working

1289
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 3: nine am nine pm, six days a week, and you're like,

1290
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 3: you're working more and more and more hours and you're

1291
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 3: not getting ahead, right, You're still stuck in your shitty

1292
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,760
Speaker 3: apartment and your app isn't paying you for the work

1293
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 3: you did. And this leads to a whole like a

1294
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 3: whole thing that sort of culminates in something I talked

1295
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 3: about a bit in the ten of episodes, which is

1296
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 3: the Chinese Supreme Court, Like the Chinese Constitution says you're

1297
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 3: not supposed to be able to work people for longer

1298
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 3: than like thirty five hours unless like special circumstances, and

1299
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 3: the Chinese Supreme Court goes like, well, obviously, you're not

1300
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 3: allowed to work people like twelve out like twelve hours

1301
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 3: a day, six days a week, and that isn't like

1302
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 3: in large part and partially it's because of the the

1303
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 3: Temu suicide and the Temu thing. But the other huge

1304
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 3: contributing factor to this, and the other huge thing contributing

1305
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 3: to Chinese society attempting to reckon kind of with their

1306
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 3: unbelievable overwork culture is is the self immolation. And it's

1307
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 3: it's it's one. It goes viral so fast that there's

1308
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 3: no way to sort of like cover it up. There's

1309
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 3: it's it's you can't the trade government can't really just

1310
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 3: press the racism button like they normally would because this

1311
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 3: isn't someone into back where this isn't someone in Chan John.

1312
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 3: They can't really do that, and so they kind of are.

1313
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 3: They're forced to make at least like some kind of

1314
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 3: change because it pisss off so many people in ways

1315
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 3: that like can't really be contained. So you know, I

1316
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 3: guess the lesson from that, if there is one, is

1317
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 3: sometimes very rarely you can back a government into a

1318
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 3: corner where the normal things that they would say about it,

1319
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 3: or like the normal like mental illness, terrorists, deluded things

1320
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 3: don't work because the raw simplicity of what they did

1321
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:22,599
Speaker 3: and why just breaks through the media sphere thing.

1322
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 2: And it's again very hard to predict obviously, Like this

1323
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 2: isn't the first within the last twelve months. This isn't

1324
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: the first self emolation of the United States, right, and

1325
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 2: the last self emolation attacked or not attacks? Sorry I

1326
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 2: should geez, do I have a media.

1327
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 5: Brain or what?

1328
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 2: Well? The last self immolation that we had, which I

1329
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:44,520
Speaker 2: believe was was over climate change.

1330
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 4: Oh there, there there was a Palestine one too.

1331
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 2: Oh there was a past So I guess we've had

1332
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 2: a couple like two in the last or three now,

1333
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 2: I guess in the last like twelve months or so,

1334
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 2: But they didn't the other ones did not really move

1335
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 2: the needle. Yeah, right, why Aaron do mean? I think

1336
01:08:57,880 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 2: I think part of it might have to do with

1337
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 2: with how to deliver brit It was and how you know,

1338
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:05,639
Speaker 2: it got was very quickly picked up by local media

1339
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 2: and the national media. I don't know's that's really outside

1340
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: the scope of these episodes, but I hope you at

1341
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:13,759
Speaker 2: least now have more of a grounding and like how

1342
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 2: this has gone other times, people have used this as

1343
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 2: a method of protest, and hopefully that's of use to

1344
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 2: you anyway, have a good day.

1345
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 1: Bye, Welcome to Dick It appen here a podcast sometimes occasion,

1346
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: not even that occasionally, that's about a bunch of not

1347
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: very functional massurveillance technology that's being deployed against all of us.

1348
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 3: I'm your host, Mia Wong, also with me as Garrison Davis. Yeah,

1349
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 3: and so today we're gonna be talking more about something

1350
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 3: we've talked about on the show like a couple of times,

1351
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:05,040
Speaker 3: but that is the shot Spotter program, and there was

1352
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 3: there was recently a leak of the locations of all

1353
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 3: of shot Spotter's like gunfire sensors, and with us to

1354
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 3: talk about it are the people who got the leak

1355
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 3: and wrote the article about about where the shotspatter sensors are,

1356
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:24,599
Speaker 3: and that is Drew Meirotro who's a staff writer at Wired,

1357
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 3: and Joey Scott, who's a freelance investigative journalist and photographer.

1358
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 3: And both of you two, welcome to the show.

1359
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:32,840
Speaker 5: Thanks for having us, Yes, thank you.

1360
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad to be talking to you about this. So,

1361
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 3: I guess for the people who don't remember or like

1362
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 3: have not listened to other episodes we've done about this,

1363
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 3: or have read this article, which you should go read

1364
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:50,720
Speaker 3: at wired it's great. Can you describe what ShotSpotter is

1365
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 3: and what it's supposed to do versus what it actually does?

1366
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 6: Sure, Joey, you want me to take this or do

1367
01:10:57,120 --> 01:10:57,600
Speaker 6: you want to do it?

1368
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1369
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 5: Go ahead, sure well. Shot Spotter is.

1370
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 6: A sort of controversial gunshot detection system built by the

1371
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 6: company Sound Thinking. On the face of it, the tech

1372
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 6: is sort of straightforward. The company will basically install little

1373
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 6: sensors on street lights and traffic signs and a jurisdiction,

1374
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 6: and these sensors are sort of like algorithmically tuned to

1375
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:25,759
Speaker 6: detect gunshots. So when one of these sensors here's something,

1376
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:29,679
Speaker 6: it basically will send an alert to an incident review center,

1377
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 6: which will then like vet the sound make sure it

1378
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 6: was actually a gunshot before then forwarding it to dispatchers

1379
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 6: who send a cop to investigate the sound. You know,

1380
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 6: activists and academics have been basically saying for years that

1381
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 6: this tech is inaccurate and primes police basically to go

1382
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 6: to low income community communities of color expecting gunshots when

1383
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 6: likely they won't find any.

1384
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the specifically low income communities of

1385
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 3: color thing is a big part of this because so

1386
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:03,679
Speaker 3: you'll created a map of where the shot Spotter sensors

1387
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 3: are from the data you got. And I looked at

1388
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 3: Chicago one and immediately I was like, I recognized that map.

1389
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 3: That is the map of where the not white people

1390
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 3: are in the city's.

1391
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's it's stark. I think a lot a

1392
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 6: lot of the responses that I've seen on Twitter and

1393
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 6: you know, in my email inboxer essentially that like, look,

1394
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 6: this is just a map of where all the not

1395
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,760
Speaker 6: white people are and whatever city that it's deployed in.

1396
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and y'all did some analysis of what you found

1397
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:41,599
Speaker 4: sort of statistically about where these censors ended up and

1398
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,600
Speaker 4: like the sort of the I guess like class and

1399
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 4: racial composition of those places. Can you talk about that

1400
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:47,280
Speaker 4: a little bit?

1401
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 6: Sure, I'll take this one just because I worked on

1402
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:53,840
Speaker 6: the analysis. So yeah, I mean what we found is

1403
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:57,600
Speaker 6: that more than twelve million Americans live in a neighborhood

1404
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 6: with at least one shot Spotter sensor. We basically joined

1405
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 6: census data onto the locations of every single shots botter

1406
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 6: microphone and looked at the demographic composition of those neighborhoods.

1407
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 6: And you know what we found is that an aggregate.

1408
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 6: Nearly seventy percent of the people who live in a

1409
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 6: neighborhood with one set with at least one sensor identify

1410
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 6: as either black or Latine. Nearly three quarters of those

1411
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 6: neighborhoods are a majority not white, and the average household

1412
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 6: income in a neighborhood with at least one sensor is

1413
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 6: fifty thousan dollars a year. So these are low income

1414
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 6: communities of color. It's kind of hard to describe it

1415
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 6: in any other way.

1416
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, one of the things, and this

1417
01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 3: has been a thing for so I'm in Chicago. There's

1418
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 3: been a huge series of fights over getting rid of

1419
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 3: ShotSpotter here. And one of the things you hear all

1420
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 3: the time that shot is the shots are People will go, no, well,

1421
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 3: we don't use race as a factor for yeah, but

1422
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 3: the ShotSpotter insists that they don't use race at all

1423
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 3: in indetermining where where they put these sensors. But kabba,

1424
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:07,519
Speaker 3: they've still managed to somehow create this map.

1425
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 4: And I don't know.

1426
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:14,360
Speaker 3: I I'm wondering what you think about like their response

1427
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 3: and whether you and I guess this is more of

1428
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 3: a subjective think, like how much do you actually believe

1429
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 3: them when they say this.

1430
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 7: Well, I think when you know, we are investigating this,

1431
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 7: we found that the police don't even know where these

1432
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 7: locations are, and so they're just given ShotSpot or data

1433
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 7: of where to put this stuff. So the police can

1434
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:39,719
Speaker 7: kind of wipe their hands of like, oh, we insisted

1435
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,280
Speaker 7: that they put it in this place or anything like that.

1436
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 7: And I think, you know, Drove can probably speak to this,

1437
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 7: but you know, the argument is this is where all

1438
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 7: the shootings are, and so that's where they are. But

1439
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 7: you know, when you investigate that, it doesn't call into

1440
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 7: effect like in other parts of the country outside of like.

1441
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:00,519
Speaker 5: Chicago or something.

1442
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 7: You look at gun violence and where these alerts are,

1443
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:06,760
Speaker 7: you know, they aren't just where the alerts are. And

1444
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 7: you know, Pasadena is an example. You know, shootings happen

1445
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 7: outside of where the alerts are, but they're specifically in

1446
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 7: a very specific part of Pasadena that is poor and

1447
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 7: non white.

1448
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah, and I think you know, when we

1449
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 6: spoke to sound Thinking, you know, I think it's important

1450
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 6: to point out here that they did not dispute or

1451
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 6: findings or the sort of authenticity of the doc. But

1452
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:34,559
Speaker 6: you know, they said what you would expect that the

1453
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 6: sensor deployment is not really informed by race. And you know,

1454
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,680
Speaker 6: the way it works, as Joey says, is that the

1455
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,600
Speaker 6: company basically asks police department who purchased the systems for

1456
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:47,960
Speaker 6: data about gun violence, which Sound Thinking says is objective.

1457
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 6: But we have no idea what that data actually looks like, right.

1458
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 6: We don't know if it's all crime data, which might

1459
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:56,920
Speaker 6: be you know, a subject to enforcement bias, right if

1460
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,879
Speaker 6: they include things like drug crimes on their drug arrests.

1461
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 6: So we just don't really know why Sound Thinking, you know,

1462
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:10,960
Speaker 6: makes a recommended plan for their sensor deployment. The other

1463
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 6: thing that Sound Thinking had told me is that, you know,

1464
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 6: sometimes they'll ask for data and they'll do it this

1465
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:18,599
Speaker 6: sort of data informed way, but other times cops will

1466
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 6: just say, like, look, we want the we want the

1467
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:23,400
Speaker 6: deployment in this area, and that might include like a

1468
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 6: stadium or a school or places where people gather. So

1469
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 6: you know, it's kind of we don't really know why

1470
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:33,799
Speaker 6: exactly Sound Thinking is deploying its centers in any given location.

1471
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and having them be deployed by cops is like,

1472
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:43,680
Speaker 3: he is a spectacular way to have cop brain in

1473
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 3: terms of locations which not not not not I don't know,

1474
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:52,440
Speaker 3: not an especially good way to get a statistically unbiased

1475
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 3: sampling of where you would potentially want these things. So

1476
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 3: I guess I guess the a thing we should talk

1477
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 3: about in terms of what the issues what the system

1478
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:05,200
Speaker 3: is are. Okay, So ShotSpotter claims that it and this

1479
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:06,880
Speaker 3: is something I've seen over and over and over again.

1480
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 3: It claims it is a ninety seven percent accuracy rate

1481
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 3: of detecting gunshots. There's just I don't believe it. None

1482
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 3: of the research I've ever seen backs that up. You

1483
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:21,519
Speaker 3: talk a bit about a bit about like what it

1484
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 3: what it's actually detecting, versus what what they sort of

1485
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 3: claim it is.

1486
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think, well, I guess the overreaching kind of

1487
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 7: theme here is we just don't know. ShotSpotter is very

1488
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:40,920
Speaker 7: not transparent about their data. There have been really no

1489
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 7: peer reviewed, independent studies of the technology. So when we

1490
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 7: make when we talk about, you know, how effective it is,

1491
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 7: that that is a claim that ShotSpotter makes based off of,

1492
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 7: you know, very little information given to the public about it,

1493
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 7: you know, And that's kind of the big issue is

1494
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 7: when you start getting down into the nitty gritty of

1495
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 7: like what's actually going on. You notice that a lot

1496
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:11,639
Speaker 7: of the times what they consider a gunshot, police will

1497
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:14,760
Speaker 7: investigate and find out it was a firework, which if

1498
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 7: you live in you know, I use Pasadena because it's

1499
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 7: next to me. Out here in La you know, fireworks

1500
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:23,760
Speaker 7: are kind of how we celebrate and it's a different

1501
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:24,760
Speaker 7: kind of language out here.

1502
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 5: You know, fireworks happen all the time.

1503
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:29,720
Speaker 7: So once you start getting into looking at some of

1504
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 7: the data that I have been able to get, you

1505
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 7: start seeing that, you know, maybe they claim it was

1506
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:39,559
Speaker 7: a gunshot, but when police show up, they don't find

1507
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 7: any evidence of a gun crime, and sometimes they find

1508
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:46,320
Speaker 7: out it was a car backfiring or construction equipment and

1509
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:50,519
Speaker 7: all of that. And that just kind of shows, you know,

1510
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 7: their claim that it's effective at identifying gunshots is you know,

1511
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 7: very questionable to make that claim.

1512
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, but you know, their ninety seven like the ninety

1513
01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:05,879
Speaker 6: seven percent figure that they cite in their marketing material

1514
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:11,400
Speaker 6: is based on police reporting back to ShotSpotter that there

1515
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 6: was a mistake, right like for Shotswatter to count a

1516
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 6: the to count like a gunshot or to count of

1517
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 6: sound as an error, the police have to report it

1518
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 6: back to ShotSpotter, right, So it's almost like by default,

1519
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 6: if they hear nothing, they have one hundred percent accuracy rate.

1520
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 6: But it is say that you know they're informed of this,

1521
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 6: they you know, will adjust that rate well.

1522
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 3: And and also I mean that that that's a metric

1523
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 3: that relies on the cops telling them, like it relies

1524
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 3: on the cops taking an extra step in an investigation.

1525
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 3: And these are like, you are dealing with one of

1526
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,120
Speaker 3: the most notoriously lazy group of people, like in the

1527
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 3: entire country, Like I have I have watched these people

1528
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 3: on duty in Chicago. They spend like eighty percent of

1529
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 3: their time standing around on their phones playing candy Crush, right,

1530
01:19:56,080 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 3: Like this this entire statistics thing requires them to do

1531
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:04,599
Speaker 3: another step. It's like, like, what percentage of the time

1532
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 3: is a cop going to admit that they ran out

1533
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,360
Speaker 3: to this thing and like drew their guns and we're

1534
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:14,640
Speaker 3: doing their like whole oh there's been gunshots thing and

1535
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 3: then there's just nothing there, Like I don't know, it

1536
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:24,479
Speaker 3: seems like cast a pall over even this, even even

1537
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 3: the sort of potential that their data can be right, right.

1538
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 7: I mean we all know that cops lie. Yeah, we've

1539
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:35,800
Speaker 7: seen them kind of use shot spotter alerts. You know,

1540
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:39,040
Speaker 7: Chicago was one of the examples where they were using

1541
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 7: it as cover to make illegal stops and you know, yeah,

1542
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:47,479
Speaker 7: that sort of thing. So, you know, if there's room

1543
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 7: for that, it's hard to then take what data police

1544
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:55,479
Speaker 7: are giving them in this way as accurate. And then

1545
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 7: again it goes back to, well, we don't the public

1546
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 7: doesn't get to see any of that information. Oh, we

1547
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,960
Speaker 7: don't get to make that I guess distinction between the two,

1548
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:08,639
Speaker 7: and you know, know what's best for people's communities because

1549
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 7: of that.

1550
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 3: That's one of the things about this program that is

1551
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 3: really alarming is that you have this massurveillance technology and

1552
01:21:18,840 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 3: the people in charge of it were like the people

1553
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,400
Speaker 3: people who would be in charge of sort of like

1554
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:28,720
Speaker 3: deciding whether or not you want it. It's like like

1555
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:32,920
Speaker 3: both both the general public and like city mayors et cetera,

1556
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 3: et cetera, seem to have so little information about whether

1557
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 3: about what it's even doing that it's incredibly difficult to

1558
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 3: make any kind of like any kind of sort of

1559
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 3: database choice. All you have is sort of this combination

1560
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 3: of like the company going oh, yeah, well, obviously their

1561
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 3: stuff works, and then this sort of well, I mean,

1562
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:54,720
Speaker 3: this is the thing that's been happening in Chicago, is

1563
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 3: this sort of like crime panic stuff they just that

1564
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,160
Speaker 3: people just fall back on, and they combine this sort

1565
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,160
Speaker 3: of crime panic with just the assumption that it works

1566
01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 3: because that's what it says in the box, and that's

1567
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:07,880
Speaker 3: a I think a really alarming combination to me.

1568
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:12,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think the fact that city council

1569
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:16,680
Speaker 6: members are kept in the dark about the locations of

1570
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:18,840
Speaker 6: these things, as are you know, the police departments to

1571
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:21,680
Speaker 6: pay for the cities to pay for it. I think

1572
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 6: it's you know, something that's really been quite interesting as

1573
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 6: after we published is that, you know, I've gotten a

1574
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 6: bunch of emails from city council members asking, you know,

1575
01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 6: asking me if I can provide them data about the

1576
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 6: locations because they can't even get them from the company.

1577
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:34,800
Speaker 5: Right.

1578
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:38,360
Speaker 6: So, yeah, there's a lot of transparency issues here.

1579
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:42,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know, this is a public this is

1580
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 7: a tool being paid with public money.

1581
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:45,760
Speaker 5: You know.

1582
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 7: Another thing we found in the data was that there

1583
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 7: are a list of sensors that are broken or out

1584
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 7: of service or anything like that. In talking to various

1585
01:22:55,760 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 7: police departments, ShotSpotter doesn't let them know when that happens,

1586
01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:01,439
Speaker 7: and you know.

1587
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 5: Referred us to talk as the shot spot about that.

1588
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,599
Speaker 7: So you know, not even the functionality of like how

1589
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:11,160
Speaker 7: many sensors are down are really communicated and that's a

1590
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 7: huge problem. But like again this data, as a journalist

1591
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:21,280
Speaker 7: to investigate it, to request documents, I can count at

1592
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:25,599
Speaker 7: least three separate cities where shot spotter intervened and said

1593
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 7: the release of the data would be a trade secret.

1594
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 7: And so therefore, yeah, so like even any data that

1595
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:39,599
Speaker 7: shows transparency of like anything more detailed than just an

1596
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 7: alert that many cities have, ShotSpotter won't release because it

1597
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:48,800
Speaker 7: is quote unquote a trade secret. Mind you, I have

1598
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:53,760
Speaker 7: gotten documents from other cities that are more detailed, and

1599
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:55,920
Speaker 7: then when I request those from other cities, shot Spotter

1600
01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:58,120
Speaker 7: intervenes and goes, no, that's a trade secret.

1601
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:01,160
Speaker 5: So it's this kind of.

1602
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:06,480
Speaker 7: Trying to hide the transparency that then adds more skepticism

1603
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 7: to the effectiveness and usefulness of the product, which the

1604
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:16,640
Speaker 7: public I believe everyone would agree, deserves a right to know,

1605
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 7: especially if it's taxpayer money.

1606
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's a lot of money too.

1607
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:24,640
Speaker 3: So speaking of a lot of money, unfortunately we have

1608
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 3: to take an ad break, so we will be back

1609
01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:33,479
Speaker 3: in a second.

1610
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:39,920
Speaker 4: Okay, we are back.

1611
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:43,360
Speaker 3: Something I wanted to talk about with the way that

1612
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 3: these sensors are used, so about actually, okay, sorry, I

1613
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:51,720
Speaker 3: should have actually figured out the exact date after which

1614
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 3: the story originally came out, but maybe like four or

1615
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:56,640
Speaker 3: five days after your story came out. There was a

1616
01:24:56,640 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 3: story that came out of Chicago about a sort of

1617
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:05,800
Speaker 3: effectively the cover up of a case where CPD was

1618
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 3: responding to a shot spotter ping and it was just

1619
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:12,360
Speaker 3: like a thirteen year old kid shooting off fireworks and

1620
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:14,880
Speaker 3: the cop showed up and immediately started shooting, and like,

1621
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 3: thankfully cops can't set up a barn, so the kid

1622
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:21,920
Speaker 3: didn't get shot, but like, this child had a cop

1623
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:24,680
Speaker 3: shoot at him while the kid was running towards the

1624
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:28,719
Speaker 3: cop going no was fireworks. Yeah, So I was wondering

1625
01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 3: what kind like, you know, how many of those kinds

1626
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:34,479
Speaker 3: of stories did you run into when you were sort

1627
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:39,240
Speaker 3: of like doing this, running into the story, and yeah,

1628
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 3: what is the impact of that stuff sort of been?

1629
01:25:41,960 --> 01:25:46,800
Speaker 6: You know, I think that that example that you bring

1630
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:51,840
Speaker 6: up is particularly egregious, But what happens more often, I think,

1631
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:56,360
Speaker 6: are these there's sort of like less dramatic events where

1632
01:25:56,479 --> 01:25:59,599
Speaker 6: you know, sound thinking or shot spotter will detect two

1633
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 6: shots and deploy cops to a corner, and you know,

1634
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 6: they'll detain someone on the scene, run their name through

1635
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 6: their you know, their databases, and find that this guy

1636
01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 6: has got a bench warrant, or you know, pick someone

1637
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:14,720
Speaker 6: up on a misdemeanor.

1638
01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 1: Right.

1639
01:26:15,200 --> 01:26:19,320
Speaker 6: So, like I think, you know, while there are some

1640
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 6: really egregious examples, a thing that that I think about

1641
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 6: a lot here is that is just how much unnecessary

1642
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 6: how many unnecessary arrests are happening because of ShotSpotter, right,

1643
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:34,200
Speaker 6: how many people are being picked up on bullshit essentially?

1644
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:39,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, And you know that that recent case in Chicago

1645
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:42,040
Speaker 7: with the kid with the firework, and you know, it

1646
01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 7: wasn't too long ago that you know, Adam Toledo was shot, Yeah,

1647
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:48,639
Speaker 7: a thirteen year old kid for the same reason. Cops

1648
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:52,280
Speaker 7: were responding to a shot spotter alert. And the Chicago

1649
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 7: o i G and their report about it kind of

1650
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 7: highlighted one of the things, which is cops are just

1651
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 7: primed to be you know, expecting you know, gunfire, somebody

1652
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:07,080
Speaker 7: shooting at them and everything. And you know, I think

1653
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 7: that's that is a danger, you know, but again to

1654
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:12,120
Speaker 7: what Druv's saying is like it also leads to a

1655
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 7: lot of unnecessary stops. It opens up people to be

1656
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:21,839
Speaker 7: profiled and padded down, and you know, so both options

1657
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 7: are not great, you know, when you consider the harm

1658
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 7: that this causes. It's just we all know that, Like,

1659
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:31,200
Speaker 7: cops are very jumpy to begin with, So you know,

1660
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:34,080
Speaker 7: they hear a firework or you know, an acorn hits

1661
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:36,600
Speaker 7: their cop car or something. We all know that, Like,

1662
01:27:37,479 --> 01:27:41,640
Speaker 7: that's probably not what we need police to be expecting

1663
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:44,080
Speaker 7: on a call. And so you're just telling people, oh,

1664
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 7: gunshots and then then they're going to run in expecting

1665
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:50,040
Speaker 7: to be fired upon. And I don't think that's great

1666
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 7: for society.

1667
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:59,160
Speaker 4: You were talking about that, So I don't know if

1668
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:01,559
Speaker 4: there's much more to say. I think that's true. We

1669
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:02,920
Speaker 4: dot acorn cop.

1670
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:05,760
Speaker 9: I think the a corn incident stands on itself. I

1671
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:07,559
Speaker 9: don't think it needs to even be talked about. I

1672
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:13,920
Speaker 9: think it I think one sentences speaks speaks a whole

1673
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:18,800
Speaker 9: book's worth of possible analysis of police behavior, and no

1674
01:28:19,439 --> 01:28:23,799
Speaker 9: being the notion of police rushing into every situation thinking

1675
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:26,920
Speaker 9: that there's there was there was a gunshot obviously has

1676
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:28,760
Speaker 9: its inherent problems.

1677
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:32,320
Speaker 7: Now, Like mind you, a lot of the times, you know,

1678
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 7: and at least in in other cities, it's sixty to

1679
01:28:36,479 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 7: eighty percent of the time they don't find anything, you know,

1680
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:44,920
Speaker 7: which I think is good in the sense that nobody's

1681
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,360
Speaker 7: being harmed or stopped, but it's also bad when you

1682
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:52,400
Speaker 7: consider the effectiveness and utility of the device, you know,

1683
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:56,439
Speaker 7: which shot Spatter has kind of distanced themselves from, you know,

1684
01:28:56,520 --> 01:28:59,679
Speaker 7: this idea of preventing gun crime or lowering croun crime

1685
01:28:59,720 --> 01:29:03,479
Speaker 7: and more are in terms of like safety and arriving

1686
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 7: to a scene quicker to render aid and help police

1687
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 7: find shell casinges. You know, you've seen over the years

1688
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 7: the kind of switch of focus on what the technology does,

1689
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:19,320
Speaker 7: and that most certainly happened around the time they changed

1690
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 7: their name to Sound Thinking, Yeah.

1691
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:24,280
Speaker 6: I think you know. The other thing I wanted to

1692
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:27,880
Speaker 6: mention here is that, you know, from a different leaked

1693
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:32,280
Speaker 6: internal report from the State's Attorney's Office in Illinois, in

1694
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:35,559
Speaker 6: Cook County, Illinois, it found that like a third of

1695
01:29:35,720 --> 01:29:38,479
Speaker 6: arrests stemming from a shot spotter alert actually had nothing

1696
01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:40,280
Speaker 6: to do with a gun In the first place. So

1697
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:43,120
Speaker 6: it's not even like you know, there eighty nine percent

1698
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:46,559
Speaker 6: of alerts, don't, you know, result in finding a shell casing.

1699
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,800
Speaker 6: It's that even when there are arrests that occur from

1700
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,360
Speaker 6: a shot spotter alert, thirty percent of them have nothing

1701
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:54,280
Speaker 6: to do with a gun, right, And that just shows

1702
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:57,160
Speaker 6: you sort of the criminalization of what happened of people

1703
01:29:57,200 --> 01:29:59,400
Speaker 6: in areas that have these microphones.

1704
01:30:00,400 --> 01:30:03,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the combination of those two things

1705
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 3: gets you to this point about Shotspatter's effectiveness, which is

1706
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 3: that like, Okay, so we've had ShotSpotter for a while

1707
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:14,720
Speaker 3: in Chicago, right, Chicago police do not solve murders like

1708
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:18,840
Speaker 3: it's sub it's their murder clearance rate. And you have

1709
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:20,960
Speaker 3: to keep in mind that murder clearance doesn't actually mean

1710
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 3: they solved a murder. But like even that jacked up

1711
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:27,200
Speaker 3: murder clearance rate I don't think has had like I

1712
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:30,160
Speaker 3: think they may have had one year in my entire life,

1713
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 3: over fifty percent. And that was because murder clearance counts

1714
01:30:34,080 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 3: if two people both shoot each other and they both die,

1715
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:40,519
Speaker 3: that counts as a clearance, or they find us their

1716
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,639
Speaker 3: suspect dies in like another way. So it's it's pretty

1717
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:48,599
Speaker 3: clear that it's not actually substantively contributing to Chicago Police

1718
01:30:48,640 --> 01:30:50,760
Speaker 3: department solving murders. Like you have a better than coin

1719
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:53,560
Speaker 3: flip odds if you kill someone in Chicago that like

1720
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:57,679
Speaker 3: the police aren't even gonna like really try to figure

1721
01:30:57,680 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 3: out what happened. And so yeah, I think I think

1722
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:00,960
Speaker 3: it makes a lot of sense that they've been pivoting

1723
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:05,519
Speaker 3: away from even like even claiming that this can do

1724
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 3: anything to solve gun violence, because it just clearly hasn't

1725
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,680
Speaker 3: at all, and it's and instead it seems to be

1726
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 3: doing a bunch of other stuff, which is like either

1727
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:18,599
Speaker 3: throwing cops around doing is like throwing cops around chasing

1728
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:23,759
Speaker 3: like shadows, which either results in them arresting just random

1729
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:30,000
Speaker 3: people or like having these really sort of terrifying incidents,

1730
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:35,559
Speaker 3: or it just results in straight up nothing.

1731
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:38,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're gonna go to ads. We'll be back in

1732
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:55,160
Speaker 4: however long capitalism dictates, So see you then we're back.

1733
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 9: And I think, like looking at the effectiveness, like two

1734
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 9: cities that have continued to deny shot spot or contracts

1735
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:06,559
Speaker 9: are Atlanta and Portland, two cities that spend a lot

1736
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 9: of time thinking about how they equip their police spend

1737
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:13,080
Speaker 9: a lot of time like making sure that their police

1738
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:19,080
Speaker 9: are able to serve the largest amount of the community possible.

1739
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 9: And the fact that like specifically Atlanta with their massive

1740
01:32:24,479 --> 01:32:28,040
Speaker 9: like flock program of an integrated camera network across the

1741
01:32:28,040 --> 01:32:30,439
Speaker 9: whole city, like it is one of the most surveilled

1742
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:35,599
Speaker 9: cities in the country, if not the most. The fact

1743
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:37,960
Speaker 9: that they are turning down this equipment for not being

1744
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,559
Speaker 9: effective enough and it being too costly is a sign

1745
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:43,920
Speaker 9: for like, beyond it just being a sign, it's also

1746
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 9: like a look at what why other police departments are

1747
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:50,080
Speaker 9: interested in this and like what it allows them to

1748
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:54,479
Speaker 9: do and being deployed to these various communities that have

1749
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:58,720
Speaker 9: the what like twenty five thousand sensors. But no, I

1750
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:01,280
Speaker 9: mean like they've constantly tried to send this stuff to

1751
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:04,719
Speaker 9: Atlanta and it's like and it's just it's simply not happening.

1752
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:09,040
Speaker 9: And even after twenty twenty that Portland's like, no, it's

1753
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:15,880
Speaker 9: it's two super super useful examples to measure how much

1754
01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 9: this technology actually is going to get used for what

1755
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:21,439
Speaker 9: they say it's being used for, versus just having an

1756
01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:26,000
Speaker 9: excuse to act like there's gunfire all across the city.

1757
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know, I think when we start more

1758
01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 7: police departments are going to start relying more on technology, sure,

1759
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:42,680
Speaker 7: largely because many departments cannot hire more cops. Now, this

1760
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,000
Speaker 7: isn't advocating me. You know, I don't want police departments

1761
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:48,799
Speaker 7: to hire more cops. You know, they've slowly defunded themselves

1762
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 7: in that way. But like you know, cities like Los

1763
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 7: Angeles are trying to grow their surveillance capabilities for that reason.

1764
01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 5: They just do not have enough. They say, they do

1765
01:33:58,560 --> 01:33:59,439
Speaker 5: not have enough cops.

1766
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:02,600
Speaker 7: And so this is where kind of the surveillance capitalism

1767
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:06,240
Speaker 7: is going to really thrive, is police departments are going

1768
01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:08,840
Speaker 7: to get desperate and they're going to start reaching out

1769
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:13,800
Speaker 7: and getting more invasive surveillance technology. And you know, I

1770
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:18,479
Speaker 7: think in some cities, shot spotter is kind of they're

1771
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:23,200
Speaker 7: a way of quieting the narratives about you know, the

1772
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:26,560
Speaker 7: growing gun violence and everything in their communities. You know,

1773
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 7: they're like, oh, look, we've deployed this new toy to

1774
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 7: kind of help us without really solving anything, because we

1775
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:34,720
Speaker 7: all know cops aren't really good at solving crime. Yeah,

1776
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 7: so it kind of gives them cover of like we're

1777
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:41,479
Speaker 7: bad at our jobs. So how do we make it

1778
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 7: look like we're better. Well, let's you know, invest in

1779
01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:46,759
Speaker 7: some new technology, so it looks like we're trying something.

1780
01:34:47,439 --> 01:34:49,000
Speaker 7: But you know, at the end of the day, it's

1781
01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 7: a waste of money. And then the impacts of that

1782
01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 7: is harm, you know, greater than the good.

1783
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:57,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like we're spending an enormous amount of money

1784
01:34:57,640 --> 01:34:59,759
Speaker 3: to hurt people for no reason.

1785
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1786
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 6: And you know, I think ShotSpotter is only one of

1787
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:10,040
Speaker 6: Sound Thinking's offerings, right, Like they you know, when they

1788
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:12,240
Speaker 6: changed their name to sound Thinking, it's sort of like

1789
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:15,640
Speaker 6: reflected this pivot in the company where now they were

1790
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 6: going to start thinking more about like resource management. Right,

1791
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:22,720
Speaker 6: how do how do we convince departments that our technology

1792
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:25,680
Speaker 6: is going to better help them allocate their resources? And

1793
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:27,400
Speaker 6: you know, surveillance is the way to do that. We

1794
01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 6: can measure where crime is, we can measure where gunshots

1795
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 6: is and where gunshots are, and we can deploy police there.

1796
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:36,720
Speaker 6: And one of shot spot or recently Sound Thinking had

1797
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:41,360
Speaker 6: acquired like a notorious predictive policing company called Predpole. That

1798
01:35:41,560 --> 01:35:45,960
Speaker 6: happens I think earlier this year. So you know, they're

1799
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:48,519
Speaker 6: trying to expand their offerings here to be this kind

1800
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:53,519
Speaker 6: of resource management solution for departments SEBIA.

1801
01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:58,320
Speaker 4: Did you have anything else you wanted to bring up here? Yeah,

1802
01:35:58,520 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 4: I guess. I guess there's one more thing. I one

1803
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 4: talk about what you said.

1804
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:04,000
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I've heard from places

1805
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:06,720
Speaker 3: that have gotten rid of their contracts is that shotspotters

1806
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:12,080
Speaker 3: not like taking their sensors down even when cities stopped

1807
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:14,160
Speaker 3: doing contracts. I was wondering what you two sort of

1808
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:14,680
Speaker 3: know about that.

1809
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:15,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1810
01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:19,280
Speaker 7: I reached out to Dayton, Ohio, who recently got rid

1811
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,200
Speaker 7: of their contracts, and I reached out, you know, because

1812
01:36:22,200 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 7: I was like asking departments who had it, like are

1813
01:36:26,320 --> 01:36:29,800
Speaker 7: you aware of the status of the sensors or do

1814
01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:31,560
Speaker 7: you know the locations? You know?

1815
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:32,280
Speaker 5: Both knows.

1816
01:36:32,439 --> 01:36:36,160
Speaker 7: And then I asked Dayton, you know, well, now that

1817
01:36:36,200 --> 01:36:39,880
Speaker 7: the contract's over, what happens to the sensors? And they

1818
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:44,760
Speaker 7: basically said, we don't know. That's shotswatter's responsibility, and their

1819
01:36:45,520 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 7: responsibility is maintenance and care and removal and installation.

1820
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:52,120
Speaker 4: So who knows.

1821
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:57,240
Speaker 7: Obviously somebody knows, because it's not like some person could

1822
01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:01,719
Speaker 7: just start climbing telephone poles and installing avalance equipment. So obviously,

1823
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,479
Speaker 7: you know, somebody is issuing permits to install stuff and

1824
01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:07,720
Speaker 7: put stuff up there. But like you know, as we're

1825
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 7: finding out, city council members don't know, police departments don't know,

1826
01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:15,280
Speaker 7: and so who knows what happens to these devices afterwards?

1827
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:18,880
Speaker 7: And then say a city like Chicago, you know, say

1828
01:37:18,920 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 7: they cancel their contracts, Well, a new mayor can come

1829
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:25,320
Speaker 7: in and then just instantly turn them back on, you know,

1830
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:27,880
Speaker 7: and that way, And so that's kind of the other

1831
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:30,160
Speaker 7: thing we're solely starting to learn here. It's more cities

1832
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:34,360
Speaker 7: start canceling their contracts or not renewing them. You know,

1833
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:38,640
Speaker 7: it is what happens to the technology afterwards, and we

1834
01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:40,799
Speaker 7: don't know, which.

1835
01:37:40,640 --> 01:37:41,759
Speaker 4: Is not a great sign.

1836
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:45,639
Speaker 3: Like, I mean, you know, it's not good that there's

1837
01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:48,920
Speaker 3: just a bunch of states surveillance technology around all the time,

1838
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:54,400
Speaker 3: but it somehow feels even worse that we don't have

1839
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:56,679
Speaker 3: any idea what happens to even if the state decides

1840
01:37:56,680 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 3: it doesn't want to use it. So yeah, I guess

1841
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 3: on that a somewhat disquieting note. Do you have anything else?

1842
01:38:04,439 --> 01:38:06,120
Speaker 3: So you wanted to make sure you get to.

1843
01:38:07,680 --> 01:38:11,519
Speaker 7: Oh nothing for me, No, I mean this is you know,

1844
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:15,640
Speaker 7: thanks to you know, somebody brave enough to send us

1845
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:17,800
Speaker 7: the info, and it's the only way this information has

1846
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:18,760
Speaker 7: been able to get out.

1847
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:20,200
Speaker 5: And I think.

1848
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:25,920
Speaker 7: If I implore the public to really research and dig

1849
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,960
Speaker 7: into this technology, if their cities are thinking about extending

1850
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 7: their contracts or bringing a contract in and really questioning

1851
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:35,120
Speaker 7: and trying to get shot spatter on the record to

1852
01:38:35,240 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 7: answer for some of these things. And you know, we

1853
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:42,080
Speaker 7: know what works and what doesn't work. And I think

1854
01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:44,240
Speaker 7: most cities are starting to find out that there is

1855
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:47,880
Speaker 7: a better use of that amount of money to stop

1856
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:53,280
Speaker 7: these sort of gun crimes, interventions and other more community

1857
01:38:53,320 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 7: based solutions rather than just dumping money into surveillance technology.

1858
01:38:58,320 --> 01:39:01,160
Speaker 7: And you know, you can get a lot done with

1859
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:06,800
Speaker 7: an eight million dollars. Yeah, you know, it's just it's

1860
01:39:06,880 --> 01:39:08,760
Speaker 7: just like there's always money in the Banana Stan sort

1861
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:10,639
Speaker 7: of thing, and there's like there's always money for police.

1862
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:14,519
Speaker 7: So it's just like, why don't we just retransform that

1863
01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:17,840
Speaker 7: money into things that actually work in these communities.

1864
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:19,720
Speaker 5: And you know, go behind that.

1865
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:24,639
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I think, I don't know, hopefully hopefully

1866
01:39:24,720 --> 01:39:27,880
Speaker 3: this will encourage more cities just stop paying for this shit.

1867
01:39:32,160 --> 01:39:32,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1868
01:39:32,520 --> 01:39:36,360
Speaker 3: So where can people find you choose work? I mean,

1869
01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:38,639
Speaker 3: I know, like obviously this one's on Wired, but are

1870
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:44,400
Speaker 3: online places et cetera, et cetera, social media places, plug

1871
01:39:44,439 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 3: yourself go yayh.

1872
01:39:47,760 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 6: Well, I'm I'm You can find my stuff on Wired

1873
01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:54,639
Speaker 6: dot com and I'm on X or Twitter or whatever

1874
01:39:54,680 --> 01:39:57,080
Speaker 6: you want to call it at d Marrow and on

1875
01:39:57,200 --> 01:39:59,560
Speaker 6: blue Sky at d Marrow d M E h r O.

1876
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:06,920
Speaker 7: And you can find me on Instagram and Twitter with

1877
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:11,519
Speaker 7: the user name Joey never Joe. And then my writings

1878
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:14,519
Speaker 7: have been in a local press out here in La

1879
01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:17,960
Speaker 7: La Public Press and Knock La.

1880
01:40:19,200 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and thank you to both so much for coming on.

1881
01:40:22,360 --> 01:40:26,160
Speaker 5: Thanks for having us, Thank you so much, appreciate it.

1882
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:30,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm gonna encourage everyone else to go get

1883
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:33,679
Speaker 3: your city to not use this stuff because it sucks.

1884
01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:36,519
Speaker 3: All right, this has been this has been naked happen here.

1885
01:40:36,600 --> 01:40:38,599
Speaker 3: You can find us in the usual places.

1886
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:58,680
Speaker 10: Goodbye, hello, and welcome to it could happen here. This

1887
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 10: is Sharene and today we are talking about you guessed it, Palestine.

1888
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:06,559
Speaker 10: I'm also gonna keep talking about Palestine because there has

1889
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:08,640
Speaker 10: been a genocide happening for the past five months and

1890
01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 10: also seventy six years and I refuse to let it

1891
01:41:12,080 --> 01:41:14,519
Speaker 10: be forgotten about. But I refused to let it be

1892
01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:17,040
Speaker 10: something that we used to talk about, because it's happening

1893
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:20,120
Speaker 10: right now and we need to talk about it. So

1894
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:23,200
Speaker 10: here I am talking about it. And while being a

1895
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:26,040
Speaker 10: public supporter of Palestine has never been popular in the

1896
01:41:26,200 --> 01:41:30,040
Speaker 10: United States, since October, we've seen a significant increase in

1897
01:41:30,080 --> 01:41:33,960
Speaker 10: the silencing of Palestinian and pro Palestinian voices. And this

1898
01:41:34,120 --> 01:41:38,160
Speaker 10: is happening both online and offline. But let's first start

1899
01:41:38,200 --> 01:41:41,960
Speaker 10: with the digital sphere, where the censorship of Palestinian voices

1900
01:41:42,040 --> 01:41:46,960
Speaker 10: and pro Palestinian content can have really dangerous consequences, especially

1901
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:49,680
Speaker 10: since the vast majority of US consume our news via

1902
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:53,479
Speaker 10: social media these days. Meta, for example, has a long

1903
01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 10: history of systematically censoring Palestine related content. While the company

1904
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:01,559
Speaker 10: has stated that it's quote whenever their intention to suppress

1905
01:42:01,600 --> 01:42:05,559
Speaker 10: a particular community or point of view, Access Now conducted

1906
01:42:05,600 --> 01:42:09,040
Speaker 10: a report where their documentation points to the opposite conclusion.

1907
01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:12,280
Speaker 10: The information in this episode, when it comes to Meta

1908
01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:15,000
Speaker 10: in particular, will be from the findings of Access Now

1909
01:42:15,120 --> 01:42:17,599
Speaker 10: in their report. Because I don't think the report got

1910
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:20,639
Speaker 10: the attention it deserved when it was published on February nineteenth.

1911
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:25,360
Speaker 10: Denying the public from both expressing and seeing content supporting

1912
01:42:25,400 --> 01:42:29,440
Speaker 10: Palestine is a very dangerous game that only further bolsters

1913
01:42:29,479 --> 01:42:33,160
Speaker 10: Israeli propaganda as well as silences any criticism against the

1914
01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:37,280
Speaker 10: settler colony of Israel. This is not okay and it

1915
01:42:37,320 --> 01:42:39,720
Speaker 10: should concern you because you have the right to know

1916
01:42:39,840 --> 01:42:44,599
Speaker 10: the truth. This pattern of censorship is no glitch. Soon

1917
01:42:44,680 --> 01:42:49,599
Speaker 10: after Israel began bombarding Gaza and blatantly committing genocide last October,

1918
01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:53,719
Speaker 10: Palestinians and people sharing pro Palestinian messages began to report

1919
01:42:53,840 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 10: that their content was being censored and suppressed on social

1920
01:42:56,960 --> 01:43:01,960
Speaker 10: media platforms, including on Facebook and Instagram. The platforms restricted

1921
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:05,439
Speaker 10: and sometimes even suspended the accounts of Palestinian journalists and

1922
01:43:05,600 --> 01:43:09,559
Speaker 10: activists both inside and outside of Gaza, and arbitrarily deleted

1923
01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:13,600
Speaker 10: a considerable amount of content, including documentation of atrocities and

1924
01:43:13,720 --> 01:43:17,200
Speaker 10: human rights abuses committed by Israel against the Palestinian people.

1925
01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:22,360
Speaker 10: Examples of this online censorship show that it is rampant, systematic,

1926
01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:26,880
Speaker 10: and global. For instance, Human Rights Watch has documented one

1927
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:30,479
Speaker 10: thousand and fifty cases of peaceful content expressing support for

1928
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:34,280
Speaker 10: Palestine originating for more than sixty countries around the world

1929
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 10: being removed between October and November twenty twenty three. Meanwhile,

1930
01:43:39,360 --> 01:43:43,880
Speaker 10: the Palestinian Observatory for Digital Rights Violations has documented around

1931
01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 10: one thousand, forty three instances of censorship between October seventh

1932
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:50,639
Speaker 10: of twenty twenty three and February ninth of this year,

1933
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:56,080
Speaker 10: including on Facebook and Instagram, from content removals to very

1934
01:43:56,160 --> 01:44:00,439
Speaker 10: blatant restrictions. The following examples illustrate the main pat patterns

1935
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:04,320
Speaker 10: of censorship on Meta's platforms documented since October seventh, twenty

1936
01:44:04,400 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 10: twenty three. Our first example is Facebook's removal of content

1937
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:11,719
Speaker 10: that was documenting the explosion at at Heity Arab Hospital.

1938
01:44:12,280 --> 01:44:14,960
Speaker 10: It removed content shared by people who were on the

1939
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:18,520
Speaker 10: ground during the massacre and during the bombing. The automatic

1940
01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:23,200
Speaker 10: deletion of bystander content with evidentiary value, especially during times

1941
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:26,959
Speaker 10: of war, not only violates people's ability to express themselves

1942
01:44:27,040 --> 01:44:31,160
Speaker 10: and freely access information, it also hinders current and future

1943
01:44:31,200 --> 01:44:35,639
Speaker 10: investigations into alleged war crimes. At atrocities perpetrated in Gaza

1944
01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:39,960
Speaker 10: by Israel funded by the United States. There had also

1945
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:44,679
Speaker 10: been suspensions of prominent Palestinian and Palestine related accounts. Meta

1946
01:44:44,760 --> 01:44:48,200
Speaker 10: has banned and suspended scores of accounts that posted content

1947
01:44:48,200 --> 01:44:52,599
Speaker 10: about Palestine. For instance, October tenth, twenty twenty three, manda

1948
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:56,040
Speaker 10: Weis reported that Instagram had twice suspended the account of

1949
01:44:56,160 --> 01:45:00,200
Speaker 10: les La Wara, its West Bank video correspondent. It was

1950
01:45:00,240 --> 01:45:04,240
Speaker 10: only after manda Weiss publicized the suspension that the platform

1951
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:08,600
Speaker 10: quickly reinstated her account. Metta also suspended the account of

1952
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:12,880
Speaker 10: Gaza journalists and photographer Motaz Azza, who gained more than

1953
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:16,960
Speaker 10: eighteen point six million followers for reporting on the genocide

1954
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:20,479
Speaker 10: in Gaza. This forced him to create a new backup

1955
01:45:20,479 --> 01:45:24,519
Speaker 10: account under at Mota Gaza, which acquired more than one

1956
01:45:24,640 --> 01:45:29,680
Speaker 10: million followers within twenty four hours. Meta later did reinstate

1957
01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:34,200
Speaker 10: Motaz's original account, but several of Azaza's posts showing dead

1958
01:45:34,280 --> 01:45:38,360
Speaker 10: or injured Palestinians were flagged by Instagram for possibly violating

1959
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 10: its policy on adult nunity and sexual activity. Under its

1960
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:47,160
Speaker 10: DOI policy, which stands for dangerous Organizations and Individuals. Meta

1961
01:45:47,240 --> 01:45:51,000
Speaker 10: also permanently banned the Arabic and English language Facebook pages

1962
01:45:51,080 --> 01:45:55,040
Speaker 10: of Klutz News Network, the largest and entirely volunteer run

1963
01:45:55,160 --> 01:45:59,599
Speaker 10: Palestinian news outlet. Which has over ten million followers on Facebook.

1964
01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:04,000
Speaker 10: Other news outlets that Meta has temporarily suspended or banned

1965
01:46:04,120 --> 01:46:09,600
Speaker 10: include Aigle Radio Network, Breakthrough News, twenty four FM, and

1966
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:16,040
Speaker 10: Palestinian Refugees Portal. In addition, Palestinian journalists Fatten, Edwin, Salehel

1967
01:46:16,160 --> 01:46:20,879
Speaker 10: Jafarawi and Ahmed chiheb Alden have all experienced and continue

1968
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:25,600
Speaker 10: to experience content takedowns and account restrictions on Instagram and Facebook.

1969
01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:29,439
Speaker 10: There have also been numerous examples of restrictions on pro

1970
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:34,840
Speaker 10: Palestinian users and content. Here are some examples. Meta blocked

1971
01:46:34,960 --> 01:46:38,879
Speaker 10: Jerusalem based activist sad Nandberk from live streaming on Instagram.

1972
01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:43,879
Speaker 10: It restricted Jewish American artists and author Malli Krabapple's Instagram account,

1973
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:47,120
Speaker 10: and there have also been documented cases of Meta hiding

1974
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:51,400
Speaker 10: Instagram comments that contain the Palestinian flag emoji for being

1975
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:56,439
Speaker 10: quote potentially offensive. Many people have reported being barred from

1976
01:46:56,520 --> 01:47:01,040
Speaker 10: commenting on Instagram posts containing Palestine related content. One user

1977
01:47:01,120 --> 01:47:03,400
Speaker 10: said that a comment was blocked for over twenty four

1978
01:47:03,479 --> 01:47:07,880
Speaker 10: hours without explanation. People have also reported being unable to

1979
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:11,920
Speaker 10: repost or reshare content related to Palestine in their Instagram stories.

1980
01:47:13,240 --> 01:47:16,400
Speaker 10: In addition, to the usual screening that Meta imposes on

1981
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:21,240
Speaker 10: graphic or violent content, Meta imposed a quote sensitive content

1982
01:47:21,360 --> 01:47:25,120
Speaker 10: warning before users could reshare Palestine related posts via their

1983
01:47:25,160 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 10: Instagram stories. In some instances, attempts to reshare such content

1984
01:47:30,600 --> 01:47:34,000
Speaker 10: generated a blank page and a message stating that quote

1985
01:47:34,120 --> 01:47:39,959
Speaker 10: something went wrong. Following the Arab Hospital massacre, people reported

1986
01:47:40,080 --> 01:47:43,440
Speaker 10: being unable to reshare a video report that was criticizing

1987
01:47:43,479 --> 01:47:46,960
Speaker 10: Western media coverage of the bombing, either via their direct

1988
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:50,840
Speaker 10: messages or Instagram stories. This video report was conducted by

1989
01:47:50,880 --> 01:47:55,720
Speaker 10: a Lebanese media outlet called Megaphone. Meta has also repeatedly

1990
01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:59,879
Speaker 10: discouraged users from following or sharing content from popular Palestini

1991
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:03,280
Speaker 10: accounts that we're sharing updates on Gaza, in the form

1992
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:06,280
Speaker 10: of prompts saying, quote are you sure you want to

1993
01:48:06,320 --> 01:48:09,719
Speaker 10: follow or mention this account? And warnings that certain accounts

1994
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 10: have quote repeatedly posted false information or violated metas community

1995
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:18,880
Speaker 10: guidelines And perhaps the most disturbing incident and one that

1996
01:48:18,920 --> 01:48:21,519
Speaker 10: I will never forget and I hope you don't either.

1997
01:48:21,760 --> 01:48:25,240
Speaker 10: And if you haven't heard about this, buckle up. Instagram

1998
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:29,479
Speaker 10: repeatedly auto translated the word Palestinian or instances of the

1999
01:48:29,520 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 10: Palestinian flag use alongside the Arabic phrase at haamdula lain,

2000
01:48:34,400 --> 01:48:38,000
Speaker 10: which means praise be to God on people's bios. But

2001
01:48:38,120 --> 01:48:40,960
Speaker 10: hamdla lah, by the way, is an extremely innocent phrase

2002
01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 10: that is used by all people. Let's speak Arabic essentially,

2003
01:48:44,800 --> 01:48:47,559
Speaker 10: and it's said all the time. It's a very peaceful,

2004
01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:50,760
Speaker 10: calmly thing to say, ahamdla lah, thank you God.

2005
01:48:51,280 --> 01:48:52,040
Speaker 4: But guess what they.

2006
01:48:52,040 --> 01:48:57,040
Speaker 10: Translated this into Instagram translated the word Palestinian, the use

2007
01:48:57,080 --> 01:49:00,639
Speaker 10: of the Palestine flag along with adamdula la in people's

2008
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:06,840
Speaker 10: bios into Palestinian terrorists are fighting for their freedom. Palestinian

2009
01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:11,800
Speaker 10: terrorists are fighting for their freedom? Are you fucking kidding me?

2010
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:18,240
Speaker 10: When a TikTok user uncovered this disturbing pattern, Meta apologized

2011
01:49:18,320 --> 01:49:22,439
Speaker 10: and fixed the issue, and we all moved on. One

2012
01:49:22,479 --> 01:49:26,000
Speaker 10: of the most insidious ways that Palestinian and pro Palestinian

2013
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:29,880
Speaker 10: voices are being censored and suppressed on Meta's platforms is

2014
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:33,759
Speaker 10: via the restriction of certain accounts reach and visibility without

2015
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:39,639
Speaker 10: any explanation or notification aka shadow banning. For example, following

2016
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:43,880
Speaker 10: the Lebanese media outlet megaphones coverage of the air hospital attack,

2017
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:48,479
Speaker 10: its Instagram account at megaphone News was hidden from search results.

2018
01:49:49,280 --> 01:49:52,559
Speaker 10: Evidence also suggests that on October eighth, twenty twenty three,

2019
01:49:53,080 --> 01:49:56,920
Speaker 10: Meta hid Instagram content that included the hashtag at uxaflood

2020
01:49:57,040 --> 01:50:02,000
Speaker 10: from view. Meta's censorship of Palestine voices and Palestinian related

2021
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,800
Speaker 10: content as far from new. In recent years, however, it

2022
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:09,920
Speaker 10: has become increasingly pronounced, with a well documented pattern of

2023
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:16,599
Speaker 10: systematic censorship, algorithmic bias, and discriminatory content moderation emerging. During

2024
01:50:16,600 --> 01:50:21,120
Speaker 10: the twenty twenty one Schechtracht protests, social media content expressing

2025
01:50:21,160 --> 01:50:25,719
Speaker 10: support for Palestinian rights was deleted, removed, and shadow band

2026
01:50:26,200 --> 01:50:29,519
Speaker 10: while users who were sharing such content were suspended or

2027
01:50:29,560 --> 01:50:34,040
Speaker 10: prevented from commenting or live streaming, and pro Palestinian hashtags

2028
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:38,519
Speaker 10: were suppressed. These were all serious problems that Meta brushed

2029
01:50:38,560 --> 01:50:42,960
Speaker 10: off as quote a technical issue. Let's take a little breather,

2030
01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:45,800
Speaker 10: and when we come back, we'll talk about silencing that

2031
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:49,080
Speaker 10: is outside of the digital world, so brb.

2032
01:51:00,200 --> 01:51:00,559
Speaker 8: Were back.

2033
01:51:01,640 --> 01:51:04,680
Speaker 10: In addition to digital silencing, we have seen cases of

2034
01:51:04,760 --> 01:51:09,040
Speaker 10: silencing occurring offline, as Americans are being fired or facing

2035
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:13,120
Speaker 10: threats for speaking out in support of Palestine. An open

2036
01:51:13,240 --> 01:51:16,960
Speaker 10: letter published in art Forum on October nineteenth, declared we

2037
01:51:17,200 --> 01:51:20,680
Speaker 10: support Palestinian liberation and call for an end to the

2038
01:51:20,800 --> 01:51:24,360
Speaker 10: killing and harming of all civilians. It was signed by

2039
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:28,880
Speaker 10: thousands of artists, scholars, and cultural workers, including the Art

2040
01:51:28,920 --> 01:51:33,680
Speaker 10: World magazine's editor David Velasco. A week later, Velasco was

2041
01:51:33,760 --> 01:51:36,200
Speaker 10: fired from the publication that he had worked at for

2042
01:51:36,360 --> 01:51:41,759
Speaker 10: eighteen years, reportedly after pushback from Martin Eisenberg, a major

2043
01:51:41,920 --> 01:51:47,360
Speaker 10: art patron, and Ben Batham Beyond Air Wow. At least

2044
01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:51,960
Speaker 10: four Art Forum editors have resigned in protest against Velasko's firing,

2045
01:51:52,640 --> 01:51:56,160
Speaker 10: and many many more people have lost their jobs. Just

2046
01:51:56,280 --> 01:52:00,599
Speaker 10: a few quick examples, A Philadelphia's sportswriter was fired after

2047
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:05,160
Speaker 10: tweeting quote solidarity with Palestine and criticism of a seventy

2048
01:52:05,200 --> 01:52:08,960
Speaker 10: six ers post that offered support to Israel after Hamas's attack.

2049
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:13,679
Speaker 10: In another high profile incident, a University of California Berkeley

2050
01:52:13,720 --> 01:52:16,920
Speaker 10: professor was sacked as editor in chief of the scientific

2051
01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:20,719
Speaker 10: journal eLife after he retweeted an onion article that he said,

2052
01:52:20,840 --> 01:52:25,080
Speaker 10: quote calls out indifference to the lives of Palestinian civilians.

2053
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:29,840
Speaker 10: A spokesperson for Palestine Legal, a civil rights group, says

2054
01:52:29,880 --> 01:52:32,679
Speaker 10: it has responded to more than two hundred and sixty

2055
01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:37,280
Speaker 10: incidents of suppression against Palestinian rights activists over two weeks

2056
01:52:37,320 --> 01:52:40,080
Speaker 10: of October, more than it did in all of twenty

2057
01:52:40,120 --> 01:52:45,280
Speaker 10: twenty two. The Council on American Islamic Relations also CARE

2058
01:52:45,520 --> 01:52:49,479
Speaker 10: or CR, which is a civil rights nonprofit, says it

2059
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:53,519
Speaker 10: received seven hundred and seventy four complaints between October seventh

2060
01:52:53,560 --> 01:52:56,760
Speaker 10: and October twenty fourth, which was the largest wave of

2061
01:52:56,840 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 10: complaints that it's handled since Donald Trump announced his Muslim

2062
01:53:00,400 --> 01:53:04,720
Speaker 10: in twenty fifteen. This wave has targeted professional activists as

2063
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:08,320
Speaker 10: well as ordinary people who have spoken in defense of Palestinians.

2064
01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:12,320
Speaker 10: It has reportedly also escalated into death threats, as well

2065
01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:15,760
Speaker 10: as assaults and visits from the FBI to Muslim individuals

2066
01:53:15,840 --> 01:53:20,280
Speaker 10: and mosques. In surprise to absolutely no one in the

2067
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:23,679
Speaker 10: United States, the highest levels of power have long supported

2068
01:53:23,760 --> 01:53:27,800
Speaker 10: voices backing Israel and its military. In the words of

2069
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:31,960
Speaker 10: Justin Sadowski, an attorney at CARE, the swift blowback against

2070
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 10: pro Palestinian voices builds on decades of organized efforts to

2071
01:53:36,400 --> 01:53:40,879
Speaker 10: quote tar Palestinian rights speech as pro terrorists or anti Semitic.

2072
01:53:41,720 --> 01:53:44,760
Speaker 10: The late civil rights attorney Michael Ratner called this the

2073
01:53:44,920 --> 01:53:50,800
Speaker 10: quote Palestine exception to free speech. In twenty fifteen, CCR

2074
01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:54,360
Speaker 10: and Palestine Legal published a report on the tactics used

2075
01:53:54,439 --> 01:53:58,760
Speaker 10: by pro Israel lobbying groups, school administrators, and public officials

2076
01:53:59,040 --> 01:54:03,960
Speaker 10: to shut down Palaceesinian rights activists. They included false accusations

2077
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:07,320
Speaker 10: of anti Semitism or support for terrorism, as well as

2078
01:54:07,439 --> 01:54:11,640
Speaker 10: legal threats and criminal investigations, and they often succeeded in

2079
01:54:11,760 --> 01:54:17,120
Speaker 10: intimidating or deterring Palestinian solidarity activists from speaking out and again,

2080
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:22,080
Speaker 10: this pattern of silencing is not new. The prominent Palestinian

2081
01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:27,679
Speaker 10: American scholar Rashid Khalidi recalls feeling overwhelmingly outnumbered at Columbia

2082
01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:31,360
Speaker 10: University in two thousand and three when pro Israel advocates

2083
01:54:31,439 --> 01:54:34,680
Speaker 10: protested against him and other faculty, as well as students

2084
01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 10: who spoke out against Israel amid intense fighting in Gaza

2085
01:54:38,360 --> 01:54:42,200
Speaker 10: and the West Bank. News crews hounded him on campus,

2086
01:54:42,360 --> 01:54:46,080
Speaker 10: and pro Israel students even made a documentary about the controversy.

2087
01:54:47,080 --> 01:54:50,560
Speaker 10: Khalidi says, I think the narrative was pretty firmly in

2088
01:54:50,640 --> 01:54:54,560
Speaker 10: the hands of people who supported Israel, but he continued,

2089
01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:58,320
Speaker 10: there is a generational change taking place, with young people

2090
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:02,920
Speaker 10: having an entirely different set of views. They consume different media,

2091
01:55:03,400 --> 01:55:06,760
Speaker 10: and I think they're more educated, more worldly, and better

2092
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:11,200
Speaker 10: informed than their elders. The recent laws against the boycotting

2093
01:55:11,240 --> 01:55:14,760
Speaker 10: of Israel, in particular, which thirty six states have enacted,

2094
01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:19,720
Speaker 10: directly stifle political advocacy by making people choose between their

2095
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:24,000
Speaker 10: livelihoods and their First Amendment rights. Last year, the Jewish

2096
01:55:24,040 --> 01:55:28,000
Speaker 10: American scholar Nathan Thral announced that he had been disinvited

2097
01:55:28,080 --> 01:55:31,400
Speaker 10: from speaking at the University of Arkansas for refusing to

2098
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:34,840
Speaker 10: sign an anti boycott pledge that was required of public

2099
01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:40,440
Speaker 10: contractors by state law. Maybe after all this, you're asking yourself.

2100
01:55:40,720 --> 01:55:41,920
Speaker 3: So what do we do Now?

2101
01:55:43,080 --> 01:55:45,160
Speaker 10: We do exactly what they don't want us to do,

2102
01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:48,760
Speaker 10: exactly what they're afraid of us doing, exactly what they're

2103
01:55:48,800 --> 01:55:52,720
Speaker 10: trying to deter us from doing. Continue talking about Palestine

2104
01:55:52,760 --> 01:55:56,680
Speaker 10: and sharing news and images and information that exposes Israel's

2105
01:55:56,720 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 10: crime of genocide against the Palestinian people. The same way

2106
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:03,880
Speaker 10: people say to vote with your dollar when it comes

2107
01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:07,080
Speaker 10: to boycotting certain brands and choosing where your money goes.

2108
01:56:07,440 --> 01:56:10,000
Speaker 10: You can decide how you want to use your social

2109
01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 10: media platforms. What do you want to do with your

2110
01:56:13,160 --> 01:56:13,960
Speaker 10: digital presence?

2111
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 4: What do you stand for?

2112
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:20,520
Speaker 10: Personally? I think the days of casually and incessantly posting

2113
01:56:20,560 --> 01:56:23,120
Speaker 10: about your life are behind us, or at least we're

2114
01:56:23,120 --> 01:56:26,800
Speaker 10: headed in that direction. We're utilizing social media in a

2115
01:56:26,880 --> 01:56:31,160
Speaker 10: different way now. Seeing how gen Z has utilized TikTok

2116
01:56:31,240 --> 01:56:34,520
Speaker 10: to share information is a great example of that. I

2117
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:37,800
Speaker 10: don't think celebrity culture, unfortunately, will ever completely go away

2118
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:40,640
Speaker 10: on social media, but I do think we are demanding

2119
01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:44,640
Speaker 10: more of our celebrities now, and I think, especially as

2120
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:49,600
Speaker 10: we're seeing quote unquote trusted news sources pedal disinformation and

2121
01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:53,440
Speaker 10: propaganda in an irresponsible and appalling way. To put it

2122
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:57,160
Speaker 10: very lightly, we are relying on each other to share

2123
01:56:57,240 --> 01:57:00,400
Speaker 10: real information, and in this case, our resources are coming

2124
01:57:00,480 --> 01:57:03,840
Speaker 10: from the people who are directly experiencing the horrors of

2125
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:07,000
Speaker 10: genocide for the past five months and seventy six years,

2126
01:57:08,360 --> 01:57:11,640
Speaker 10: and those voices must be amplified. There are a lot

2127
01:57:11,720 --> 01:57:14,520
Speaker 10: of solid arguments to be made against social media as

2128
01:57:14,560 --> 01:57:16,360
Speaker 10: a whole when it comes to whether or not it

2129
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:20,280
Speaker 10: benefits humanity, but I am seeing something shift now where

2130
01:57:20,280 --> 01:57:23,120
Speaker 10: we are able to utilize this tool for our betterment.

2131
01:57:23,720 --> 01:57:26,680
Speaker 10: If it wasn't for social media, the movement for Palestinian

2132
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:30,200
Speaker 10: liberation would not be where it is today. People who

2133
01:57:30,280 --> 01:57:33,680
Speaker 10: were previously uninformed would never have seen the reality of

2134
01:57:33,720 --> 01:57:36,760
Speaker 10: the situation were it not for our ability to learn

2135
01:57:36,800 --> 01:57:40,600
Speaker 10: from each other outside of the limitations of mainstream news.

2136
01:57:41,320 --> 01:57:44,320
Speaker 10: We are learning to trust the establishment less and trust

2137
01:57:44,400 --> 01:57:48,040
Speaker 10: each other more. And I think we're able to use

2138
01:57:48,080 --> 01:57:50,879
Speaker 10: social media in this way. It's actually a net positive

2139
01:57:50,920 --> 01:57:54,040
Speaker 10: for us. It doesn't have to be empty in mind,

2140
01:57:54,160 --> 01:57:56,080
Speaker 10: theming in a way to control us or get us

2141
01:57:56,120 --> 01:57:58,760
Speaker 10: to spend our money to keep the capitalism machine in

2142
01:57:58,880 --> 01:58:02,680
Speaker 10: good working order. We can decide how we utilize our

2143
01:58:02,720 --> 01:58:05,360
Speaker 10: digital presence and the good that can come from it,

2144
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:09,120
Speaker 10: and to be united in this way is extremely powerful

2145
01:58:09,320 --> 01:58:12,800
Speaker 10: and it can ignite real change, and at the very least,

2146
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:15,040
Speaker 10: it can be our way of spiting the powers that

2147
01:58:15,200 --> 01:58:19,000
Speaker 10: be and refusing to be sheep. Existing in an age

2148
01:58:19,040 --> 01:58:23,200
Speaker 10: of mass surveillance is frankly very terrifying. But seeing the

2149
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:25,760
Speaker 10: lengths that companies like Meta will not only go to

2150
01:58:25,920 --> 01:58:29,760
Speaker 10: to surveill us, but to monitor what we consume, it's

2151
01:58:29,800 --> 01:58:33,960
Speaker 10: extremely revealing of how weak their power actually is. It's

2152
01:58:34,080 --> 01:58:37,720
Speaker 10: up to us to take back that power, especially now

2153
01:58:37,920 --> 01:58:40,880
Speaker 10: as we are witnessing a genocide happen in real time

2154
01:58:41,120 --> 01:58:43,960
Speaker 10: on our silly little devices for the past five months,

2155
01:58:44,320 --> 01:58:47,320
Speaker 10: and having people become aware of the slower genocide and

2156
01:58:47,400 --> 01:58:50,880
Speaker 10: ethnic cleansing that has taken place for seventy six years.

2157
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:54,920
Speaker 10: So keep talking about Palestine, both in person with your

2158
01:58:54,960 --> 01:58:59,240
Speaker 10: peers and family and online. I can't guarantee that you

2159
01:58:59,280 --> 01:59:02,560
Speaker 10: won't face pushback or repercussions, because as we know, that

2160
01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:06,120
Speaker 10: is a real possibility, but the community of people that

2161
01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:09,600
Speaker 10: you gain from learning of and speaking the truth far

2162
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:13,760
Speaker 10: outweighs any individual fear, and I would rather stand for

2163
01:59:13,840 --> 01:59:17,440
Speaker 10: something than cower by myself or be controlled by fear.

2164
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:21,720
Speaker 10: We do have the ability to change things. I have

2165
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:25,520
Speaker 10: to believe that something else is possible, but it starts

2166
01:59:25,560 --> 01:59:28,560
Speaker 10: with taking the blinders off and making a choice about

2167
01:59:28,600 --> 01:59:31,800
Speaker 10: how you want to utilize the tools at your disposal,

2168
01:59:32,480 --> 01:59:36,800
Speaker 10: rather than be utilized yourself. And that, my friends, is

2169
01:59:36,840 --> 01:59:39,560
Speaker 10: our episode for today. Thank you so much for listening

2170
01:59:39,800 --> 01:59:41,000
Speaker 10: and repel us.

2171
01:59:40,960 --> 01:59:57,240
Speaker 8: Tone Hello and welcome back to it could happen here.

2172
01:59:57,560 --> 01:59:59,640
Speaker 8: I am once again You're a guest host Molly Conger.

2173
02:00:00,080 --> 02:00:04,240
Speaker 8: Today is our friend Garrison. Hello, excited to get the

2174
02:00:04,480 --> 02:00:08,200
Speaker 8: Robert Rundo rundown. So you already know what we are

2175
02:00:08,240 --> 02:00:10,880
Speaker 8: talking about today. It is a guy that you probably

2176
02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:13,840
Speaker 8: already know more about than you ever wanted to. It

2177
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:16,760
Speaker 8: is Rob Rundo, the founder of the Nazi fight club,

2178
02:00:16,840 --> 02:00:19,760
Speaker 8: the Rise Above movement. You and Robert did a great

2179
02:00:19,760 --> 02:00:23,080
Speaker 8: two part Behind the Bastards on RAM back in twenty

2180
02:00:23,160 --> 02:00:23,879
Speaker 8: twenty one.

2181
02:00:25,240 --> 02:00:29,040
Speaker 4: Which is shockingly three years ago, which does not sound right,

2182
02:00:29,280 --> 02:00:31,040
Speaker 4: but I guess is the case.

2183
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:33,640
Speaker 8: It's been a long three years for you, but an

2184
02:00:33,680 --> 02:00:35,240
Speaker 8: even stranger one for Rob.

2185
02:00:35,880 --> 02:00:39,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, he's been really a country hopic a lot the

2186
02:00:40,040 --> 02:00:40,800
Speaker 9: past few years.

2187
02:00:40,880 --> 02:00:42,520
Speaker 4: Huh. He's been busy.

2188
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:45,680
Speaker 8: So when you recorded that episode back in January of

2189
02:00:45,720 --> 02:00:49,240
Speaker 8: twenty twenty one, Rundo's federal charges had been dismissed by

2190
02:00:49,320 --> 02:00:52,800
Speaker 8: Judge Cormack Carney in twenty nineteen. The Ninth Circuit Court

2191
02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:55,600
Speaker 8: of Appeals overturned that decision in March twenty twenty one,

2192
02:00:55,760 --> 02:00:57,600
Speaker 8: right around the time the episode came out. I think

2193
02:00:57,640 --> 02:01:00,480
Speaker 8: at the end of the second episode you had a PostScript,

2194
02:01:00,560 --> 02:01:03,160
Speaker 8: like an addendum you recorded afterwards, because before it came out,

2195
02:01:03,920 --> 02:01:05,640
Speaker 8: the Ninth Circuit ruling had been issued.

2196
02:01:06,400 --> 02:01:08,000
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, but in.

2197
02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:11,840
Speaker 8: An almost comical turn of events, Judge Carney has once

2198
02:01:11,960 --> 02:01:15,960
Speaker 8: again dismissed those charges two weeks ago.

2199
02:01:16,040 --> 02:01:23,000
Speaker 9: Now, so three years later, a few countries later, hopping

2200
02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:27,640
Speaker 9: from Serbia to the United States to probably other places

2201
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:28,320
Speaker 9: around Europe.

2202
02:01:29,520 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, and we're sort of back in the same position

2203
02:01:32,400 --> 02:01:34,440
Speaker 8: you were in when you talked about him three years ago.

2204
02:01:34,880 --> 02:01:36,360
Speaker 4: Times that's circle.

2205
02:01:36,960 --> 02:01:38,440
Speaker 8: But before we get into one of the sort of

2206
02:01:38,560 --> 02:01:41,720
Speaker 8: strangest legal slap fights I've ever read, let's back up

2207
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:44,440
Speaker 8: for a second. Who is Rob Rundo and what was

2208
02:01:44,520 --> 02:01:47,160
Speaker 8: he charged with? Yeah, So, if you want a more

2209
02:01:47,280 --> 02:01:49,520
Speaker 8: robust look at the early days of the Rise Above movement,

2210
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:51,680
Speaker 8: I do recommend going back and listening to that Behind

2211
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:53,840
Speaker 8: the Bastards two parter on the Rise Above Movement. It

2212
02:01:53,920 --> 02:01:57,240
Speaker 8: originally aired in March twenty twenty one, So like, really

2213
02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:00,440
Speaker 8: scroll back in your podcast app. But we'll do a

2214
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:03,600
Speaker 8: quick recap here because it's not I can't assign the

2215
02:02:03,680 --> 02:02:09,320
Speaker 8: listener homework. So so the Rise Above movement first emerged

2216
02:02:09,360 --> 02:02:11,920
Speaker 8: in early twenty seventeen, after a brief period of being

2217
02:02:11,960 --> 02:02:15,360
Speaker 8: called the DIY Division Both stupid Dames. I don't know

2218
02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:18,080
Speaker 8: which one's better, but Ram. We're just going to call

2219
02:02:18,120 --> 02:02:21,200
Speaker 8: them RAM. In twenty seventeen was a big year for

2220
02:02:21,320 --> 02:02:23,640
Speaker 8: political violence. It was it was really hot that year.

2221
02:02:24,680 --> 02:02:27,160
Speaker 8: The group was, on its surface, a mixed martial arts

2222
02:02:27,240 --> 02:02:30,320
Speaker 8: club for white men. They trained together and bonded over

2223
02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:34,560
Speaker 8: their shared and abhorrent political views. In their own words,

2224
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:37,400
Speaker 8: they are fighting against the modern world corrupted by the

2225
02:02:37,480 --> 02:02:42,400
Speaker 8: destructive cultural influences of liberals, Jews, Muslims, and immigrants, you know.

2226
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:44,520
Speaker 4: And gay people and gay people.

2227
02:02:44,680 --> 02:02:46,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm just pretty much pretty much everybody.

2228
02:02:46,680 --> 02:02:49,200
Speaker 4: Except you know themselves.

2229
02:02:50,200 --> 02:02:50,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2230
02:02:51,160 --> 02:02:53,680
Speaker 8: Essentially, if you were not a member of the Nazi

2231
02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:55,960
Speaker 8: Fight Club, you are a victim of the Nazi fight Club.

2232
02:02:57,160 --> 02:03:00,440
Speaker 4: That's the first rule of Nazi fights or whatever.

2233
02:03:00,960 --> 02:03:03,240
Speaker 8: The first rule of Nazi fight Club was not don't

2234
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:05,240
Speaker 8: talk about Nazi fight Club. And I think that's they

2235
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:10,080
Speaker 8: shutout it. They cannot stop talking. Like if they had

2236
02:03:10,320 --> 02:03:12,400
Speaker 8: just followed the first rule of fight club, they might

2237
02:03:12,440 --> 02:03:15,040
Speaker 8: not be in this position. But RAM quickly became a

2238
02:03:15,080 --> 02:03:17,880
Speaker 8: staple at rallies in southern California that year. In the

2239
02:03:17,960 --> 02:03:21,000
Speaker 8: spring and summer of twenty seventeen, they kept showing up

2240
02:03:21,080 --> 02:03:24,800
Speaker 8: and kept throwing punches In March, members assaulted journalists and

2241
02:03:24,840 --> 02:03:28,000
Speaker 8: counter protesters at a MAGA rally in Huntington Beach. In April,

2242
02:03:28,040 --> 02:03:30,760
Speaker 8: they assaulted numerous counter protesters at a rally in Berkeley.

2243
02:03:31,200 --> 02:03:33,920
Speaker 8: In August, RAM members attended Unite the Right in Charlottesville

2244
02:03:33,960 --> 02:03:35,760
Speaker 8: and assaulted counter protesters in the streets.

2245
02:03:35,920 --> 02:03:36,240
Speaker 4: Again.

2246
02:03:37,320 --> 02:03:38,960
Speaker 8: And you know they're not just going to these events

2247
02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:41,080
Speaker 8: and getting in fights, right, They're not just like showing

2248
02:03:41,160 --> 02:03:43,040
Speaker 8: up and just like it just happens. They're going to

2249
02:03:43,120 --> 02:03:46,320
Speaker 8: these events planning on committing these assaults and then bragging

2250
02:03:46,360 --> 02:03:49,960
Speaker 8: about the assaults publicly and privately. They're using these acts

2251
02:03:50,000 --> 02:03:52,760
Speaker 8: of violence as propaganda and recruitment tools, right like they're

2252
02:03:52,760 --> 02:03:55,440
Speaker 8: making little videos they're posting about it. It's not just

2253
02:03:55,520 --> 02:03:57,800
Speaker 8: about committing the assault. So the violence is not just

2254
02:03:57,880 --> 02:04:01,440
Speaker 8: about physically hurting people. It's part of the larger strategy

2255
02:04:01,480 --> 02:04:05,240
Speaker 8: to incite others to join them in this project. And

2256
02:04:05,320 --> 02:04:07,040
Speaker 8: that's I mean, you already know this. You covered that

2257
02:04:07,080 --> 02:04:09,240
Speaker 8: in your episode three years ago. This is for everybody else,

2258
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:14,400
Speaker 8: and they're still going. Unfortunately, these these they're now often

2259
02:04:14,480 --> 02:04:17,880
Speaker 8: called active clubs, are more popular than what they were

2260
02:04:17,960 --> 02:04:21,280
Speaker 8: three years ago. They've they've become very a very big

2261
02:04:21,400 --> 02:04:24,600
Speaker 8: staple of white supremacist organizing across the United States and Canada,

2262
02:04:24,960 --> 02:04:29,040
Speaker 8: mirroring a lot of organizational styles in Eastern Europe. There's

2263
02:04:29,160 --> 02:04:31,920
Speaker 8: probably one in your area that you might not know about.

2264
02:04:32,520 --> 02:04:35,520
Speaker 8: They are active on telegram, They're actively recruiting. They recruit

2265
02:04:35,560 --> 02:04:36,240
Speaker 8: from high schools.

2266
02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:42,440
Speaker 9: Is a big increasing problem as Patriot Front becomes more

2267
02:04:42,440 --> 02:04:46,440
Speaker 9: and more like fed jacketed between their own Nazi ranks,

2268
02:04:46,640 --> 02:04:50,600
Speaker 9: we have seen more people plugging into into these active clubs.

2269
02:04:51,160 --> 02:04:53,959
Speaker 8: Right RAM did not go away, it's just sort of morphed.

2270
02:04:54,080 --> 02:04:56,600
Speaker 8: And so back in twenty seventeen they said they had

2271
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:58,960
Speaker 8: a lot of members. They probably had like twenty But

2272
02:04:59,080 --> 02:05:02,040
Speaker 8: now these active clubs just they do genuinely have chapters

2273
02:05:02,040 --> 02:05:05,440
Speaker 8: all over the country. Yeah, but back in the past,

2274
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:07,960
Speaker 8: right So after Unite the Right RAM members decided to

2275
02:05:08,200 --> 02:05:10,200
Speaker 8: lay off the rallies a little bit. You know, being

2276
02:05:10,280 --> 02:05:12,520
Speaker 8: seen on camera beating a woman into the pavement at

2277
02:05:12,560 --> 02:05:15,320
Speaker 8: a rally that ended in a hate crime murder invited

2278
02:05:15,360 --> 02:05:17,960
Speaker 8: some bad press and they weren't looking to get door

2279
02:05:18,040 --> 02:05:20,480
Speaker 8: knocks at that particular moment, So they backed off a

2280
02:05:20,520 --> 02:05:22,840
Speaker 8: little bit at the end of twenty seventeen, but they'd

2281
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:25,240
Speaker 8: spent most of that year attending rallies and getting into

2282
02:05:25,240 --> 02:05:29,880
Speaker 8: physical altercations. It wasn't until over a year after Unite

2283
02:05:29,880 --> 02:05:31,920
Speaker 8: the Right in October of twenty eighteen, that there was

2284
02:05:32,040 --> 02:05:36,480
Speaker 8: any attempt to do anything about this very obvious problem.

2285
02:05:36,880 --> 02:05:39,040
Speaker 8: You know, the criminal complaint itself even says that some

2286
02:05:39,120 --> 02:05:41,720
Speaker 8: of these assaults were committed in plain view of cops

2287
02:05:41,760 --> 02:05:44,960
Speaker 8: who just stood there and did nothing while these guys

2288
02:05:45,040 --> 02:05:47,880
Speaker 8: beat the shit out of people in the streets. You know,

2289
02:05:47,880 --> 02:05:50,320
Speaker 8: they're in each other's dms, bragging about kicking a woman

2290
02:05:50,360 --> 02:05:52,320
Speaker 8: in the head while she's lying on the ground, but

2291
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:56,360
Speaker 8: nobody lifted a finger to stop them. But in October

2292
02:05:56,440 --> 02:05:59,440
Speaker 8: of twenty eighteen, two cases were filed. One in the

2293
02:05:59,480 --> 02:06:02,960
Speaker 8: Western Virginia charges were filed against Ben Daley, Cole White,

2294
02:06:03,040 --> 02:06:05,760
Speaker 8: Thomas Gillen, and Michael Miscelis, And a few weeks later,

2295
02:06:05,840 --> 02:06:09,320
Speaker 8: in the Central District of California, charges were filed against

2296
02:06:09,400 --> 02:06:12,680
Speaker 8: Rob Rundo, Robert Bowman, Tyler Loub and Aaron Eeson. So

2297
02:06:12,880 --> 02:06:16,240
Speaker 8: all eight of them, four in each district. All eight

2298
02:06:16,280 --> 02:06:18,160
Speaker 8: of them were charged under the Federal Riot Act and

2299
02:06:18,240 --> 02:06:21,640
Speaker 8: conspiracy to riot. I think it was Robert who said

2300
02:06:21,640 --> 02:06:23,640
Speaker 8: in the original RAM episode. You know, like if at

2301
02:06:23,720 --> 02:06:26,520
Speaker 8: any point early on, like if at any point in

2302
02:06:26,600 --> 02:06:30,000
Speaker 8: those first few months of this happening there had been

2303
02:06:30,040 --> 02:06:32,680
Speaker 8: any kind of intervention, if anyone had been arrested in

2304
02:06:32,800 --> 02:06:35,080
Speaker 8: the act, maybe this could have been nipped in the

2305
02:06:35,120 --> 02:06:38,440
Speaker 8: butt and a lot of what happens later wouldn't have happened.

2306
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:42,920
Speaker 9: Or even if they were like beaten up, like if

2307
02:06:43,040 --> 02:06:45,120
Speaker 9: like if a group of like Eddie fascists like beat

2308
02:06:45,160 --> 02:06:48,320
Speaker 9: them up, that would discidentivize them from going to future

2309
02:06:48,360 --> 02:06:50,640
Speaker 9: events to try to beat up other people, right, Like,

2310
02:06:50,840 --> 02:06:53,480
Speaker 9: violence is actually very good at doing this specific thing,

2311
02:06:53,720 --> 02:06:55,640
Speaker 9: and if you feel like you're gonna go somewhere to

2312
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:57,120
Speaker 9: get b up, you probably don't want to go there.

2313
02:06:57,680 --> 02:07:00,680
Speaker 9: And even like divorced from the act at the state

2314
02:07:00,800 --> 02:07:05,080
Speaker 9: like that is that is a demotivating factor which has

2315
02:07:05,120 --> 02:07:08,000
Speaker 9: been effective against Proud Boys in Portland. Now, obviously some

2316
02:07:08,120 --> 02:07:11,080
Speaker 9: of these guys, especially the RAM crew, go there with

2317
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:13,560
Speaker 9: the express interest of getting into fights, So that's something

2318
02:07:13,600 --> 02:07:17,960
Speaker 9: you should definitely consider. But yeah, like if as long

2319
02:07:18,000 --> 02:07:19,640
Speaker 9: as they have a bad time, it makes them not

2320
02:07:19,720 --> 02:07:21,600
Speaker 9: want to come to these things. But when they're able

2321
02:07:21,640 --> 02:07:24,040
Speaker 9: to just beat up anyone, they want to without any pushback.

2322
02:07:24,080 --> 02:07:26,160
Speaker 9: It's like, yeah, it becomes like a fun thing. It

2323
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:29,440
Speaker 9: becomes like a large amount of incentive is gained for

2324
02:07:30,320 --> 02:07:32,440
Speaker 9: going to a rally, whether that's in Huntington Beach or

2325
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:33,880
Speaker 9: halfway across the country.

2326
02:07:34,280 --> 02:07:34,440
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2327
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:36,280
Speaker 8: I mean they were having a great time and there

2328
02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:39,240
Speaker 8: was no there was no movement to stop this, And

2329
02:07:39,320 --> 02:07:41,840
Speaker 8: it's hard to know why it took over a year

2330
02:07:41,920 --> 02:07:43,839
Speaker 8: for any charges to get brought. I think you speculated

2331
02:07:43,880 --> 02:07:45,440
Speaker 8: in that RAM episode a few years ago that it

2332
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,240
Speaker 8: was public pressure. After that in depth reporting came out

2333
02:07:48,280 --> 02:07:50,800
Speaker 8: of mainstream press, but I was going back over the timeline,

2334
02:07:50,800 --> 02:07:53,880
Speaker 8: and that pro public apiece came out in October twenty seventeen.

2335
02:07:54,200 --> 02:07:55,920
Speaker 8: That was just two months after Unite the Right and

2336
02:07:56,000 --> 02:07:59,040
Speaker 8: a whole year before those charges were filed. It's not

2337
02:07:59,120 --> 02:08:02,080
Speaker 8: really possible to know why they waited so long unless

2338
02:08:02,160 --> 02:08:04,880
Speaker 8: some you know, young US attorney wants to level with

2339
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:08,480
Speaker 8: us about it. But I don't foresee that, probably not

2340
02:08:09,360 --> 02:08:11,240
Speaker 8: just you know what's going on behind the scenes. But

2341
02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:14,160
Speaker 8: I do have one sort of interesting anecdote. A couple

2342
02:08:14,200 --> 02:08:16,680
Speaker 8: months ago, I was at an event here in Charlesville.

2343
02:08:17,280 --> 02:08:19,280
Speaker 8: It was a panel discussion, and one of the speakers

2344
02:08:19,440 --> 02:08:21,720
Speaker 8: was the US Attorney for the Western District of Virginia,

2345
02:08:21,840 --> 02:08:24,720
Speaker 8: Chris Cavanaugh. He was speaking to a group of people

2346
02:08:24,720 --> 02:08:26,280
Speaker 8: about the work that he does, and he was talking

2347
02:08:26,320 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 8: about the work that he did on some of these

2348
02:08:28,280 --> 02:08:31,360
Speaker 8: sort of extremism cases after Unite the Right. Back in

2349
02:08:31,400 --> 02:08:33,640
Speaker 8: twenty eighteen, he was the assistant US attorney here. He's

2350
02:08:33,720 --> 02:08:36,080
Speaker 8: been promoted since then. But he worked on the James

2351
02:08:36,120 --> 02:08:38,600
Speaker 8: Fields case, and he worked on the Ram case. It

2352
02:08:38,680 --> 02:08:41,520
Speaker 8: was filed here in Virginia, and he said something really

2353
02:08:41,600 --> 02:08:43,800
Speaker 8: interesting that I hadn't thought about before. So right after

2354
02:08:43,920 --> 02:08:46,280
Speaker 8: Unite the Right in August twenty seventeen, a bunch of

2355
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:49,520
Speaker 8: FBI agents were assigned to you know, check out what

2356
02:08:49,640 --> 02:08:53,080
Speaker 8: happened here at this mass casualty event. Right, They had

2357
02:08:53,120 --> 02:08:56,440
Speaker 8: the resources to investigate and try to develop cases. You know,

2358
02:08:56,920 --> 02:08:58,400
Speaker 8: I love my documents. I spent a lot of time

2359
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:00,280
Speaker 8: in the documents, so I've actually seen you know, they

2360
02:09:00,360 --> 02:09:02,560
Speaker 8: got some federal search warrants. It was actually an FBI

2361
02:09:02,680 --> 02:09:05,920
Speaker 8: agent who dug the round that Richard Preston fired at

2362
02:09:05,960 --> 02:09:08,000
Speaker 8: Corey Long out of the mulch In Market Street park.

2363
02:09:08,040 --> 02:09:10,000
Speaker 8: You know, they got search warrants for social media for

2364
02:09:10,120 --> 02:09:13,880
Speaker 8: a couple of guys who ended up prosecuted locally, Alex Ramos,

2365
02:09:13,920 --> 02:09:16,800
Speaker 8: Richard Preston, and New Borton. So it looks like they

2366
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:19,600
Speaker 8: were trying to develop hate crime cases, right, like that

2367
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:22,400
Speaker 8: federal warrant they got for Richard Preston's Twitter account said

2368
02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:25,080
Speaker 8: that they were developing I hate crime case and they

2369
02:09:25,200 --> 02:09:27,960
Speaker 8: never did so, like right after Unite the Right, they're

2370
02:09:28,000 --> 02:09:30,960
Speaker 8: getting these warrants, they're developing these cases. But back to

2371
02:09:31,040 --> 02:09:33,560
Speaker 8: that event that I was at with Chris Kavanaugh, the

2372
02:09:33,600 --> 02:09:37,640
Speaker 8: US attorney, he said, when the Las Vegas shooting happened

2373
02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:41,280
Speaker 8: in October of twenty seventeen, they lost their task force.

2374
02:09:42,200 --> 02:09:45,000
Speaker 8: They had this huge volume of agents working trying to

2375
02:09:45,080 --> 02:09:47,960
Speaker 8: develop Unite the Right cases. When that shooting happened two

2376
02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:50,240
Speaker 8: months later, they all got reassigned. He was left with

2377
02:09:50,280 --> 02:09:51,920
Speaker 8: like a skeleton crew, and they just didn't have the

2378
02:09:52,000 --> 02:09:55,200
Speaker 8: resources to develop these cases. Like, I don't know how

2379
02:09:55,280 --> 02:09:58,400
Speaker 8: the FBI is managing their resources internally so badly that

2380
02:09:58,440 --> 02:10:01,240
Speaker 8: they can only handle one mask actualty event at a time,

2381
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:04,560
Speaker 8: or why the Washington Field office was so heavily impacted

2382
02:10:04,600 --> 02:10:07,440
Speaker 8: by a shooting in Nevada. But that is what he said,

2383
02:10:07,520 --> 02:10:10,440
Speaker 8: So take that as you will. And I think that

2384
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:13,040
Speaker 8: theory is at least in part supported by the fact

2385
02:10:13,080 --> 02:10:16,800
Speaker 8: that the federal charges against James Fields didn't get brought

2386
02:10:16,880 --> 02:10:19,720
Speaker 8: until June of twenty eighteen. Right, he'd been charged locally

2387
02:10:19,760 --> 02:10:22,120
Speaker 8: for the car attack that killed Heather Higher, but the

2388
02:10:22,200 --> 02:10:25,400
Speaker 8: federal charges didn't pop up until June of twenty eighteen.

2389
02:10:25,560 --> 02:10:25,920
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

2390
02:10:25,960 --> 02:10:28,280
Speaker 8: If maybe something shifted in terms of resources in their

2391
02:10:28,360 --> 02:10:32,280
Speaker 8: office that summer, I don't know, it's interesting to think about.

2392
02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:35,960
Speaker 8: But then, so back to October of twenty eighteen, right

2393
02:10:36,000 --> 02:10:39,360
Speaker 8: when these two different RAM cases get filed. Virginia's case

2394
02:10:39,440 --> 02:10:41,240
Speaker 8: was actually filed first. It was filed a few weeks

2395
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:44,120
Speaker 8: before the case in California, So I don't know. I

2396
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:47,480
Speaker 8: assumed they were in communication about that, but I don't

2397
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:50,240
Speaker 8: have any special insight into what their federal prosecutor was doing.

2398
02:10:51,040 --> 02:10:53,520
Speaker 8: But it's also possible that it just takes the government

2399
02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:57,440
Speaker 8: a whole ass year to do anything, no matter what.

2400
02:10:57,880 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 8: Right In a recent filing in the Rondo case, the

2401
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:03,800
Speaker 8: government's talking about how this investigation was developed, and it says,

2402
02:11:04,800 --> 02:11:06,800
Speaker 8: you're gonna shit a break Garrison. It says that the

2403
02:11:06,920 --> 02:11:11,040
Speaker 8: FBI investigation into RAM only started when a bartender in

2404
02:11:11,320 --> 02:11:15,720
Speaker 8: LA called the FBI a few weeks after Unite the

2405
02:11:15,840 --> 02:11:20,280
Speaker 8: Right because he overheard a patron Ben Day quote gleefully

2406
02:11:20,560 --> 02:11:26,760
Speaker 8: bragging about having caused havoc during the riots. Amazing, and

2407
02:11:26,960 --> 02:11:29,920
Speaker 8: he also quote bragged about hitting a guy and punching

2408
02:11:29,960 --> 02:11:33,640
Speaker 8: a girl in the face during protests in Berkeley. So

2409
02:11:33,720 --> 02:11:35,520
Speaker 8: that first comment was about Charlesville. He had just come

2410
02:11:35,520 --> 02:11:37,640
Speaker 8: home from Charlesville. He was talking about how he caused havoc.

2411
02:11:37,680 --> 02:11:41,040
Speaker 8: He's bragging about punching people in Berkeley, and the bartender's like, hmm,

2412
02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:46,600
Speaker 8: that's kind of that's suspicious, suspicious. This unnamed complainant also

2413
02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:49,160
Speaker 8: told the FBI that Daily and other RAM members had

2414
02:11:49,200 --> 02:11:52,920
Speaker 8: come to the bar often and sometimes used it for recruitment.

2415
02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:56,320
Speaker 8: They were recruiting the patrons at this bar, and based

2416
02:11:56,360 --> 02:11:58,360
Speaker 8: on what he overheard, he told the FBI that the

2417
02:11:58,400 --> 02:12:01,000
Speaker 8: group quote did not care about the issues regarding the

2418
02:12:01,040 --> 02:12:04,560
Speaker 8: statues in Charlottesville, but rather a quote enjoyed going to

2419
02:12:04,680 --> 02:12:10,360
Speaker 8: protests just to raise havoc, cause trouble and fight. So

2420
02:12:10,680 --> 02:12:13,120
Speaker 8: it wasn't until a bartender called the FBI to be like, Hey,

2421
02:12:13,160 --> 02:12:15,960
Speaker 8: this guy's talking about like doing a lot of gang violence.

2422
02:12:16,160 --> 02:12:18,440
Speaker 8: I don't know if you guys know about this, And

2423
02:12:18,520 --> 02:12:21,280
Speaker 8: according to that same court filing, the FBI took until

2424
02:12:21,600 --> 02:12:24,000
Speaker 8: January of twenty eighteen, so a few weeks after Unit

2425
02:12:24,040 --> 02:12:26,400
Speaker 8: the Right and maybe we're looking at September. It took

2426
02:12:26,440 --> 02:12:29,320
Speaker 8: them three or four more months until January of twenty

2427
02:12:29,360 --> 02:12:32,080
Speaker 8: eighteen to discover in the course of their investigation that

2428
02:12:32,200 --> 02:12:33,840
Speaker 8: RAM was based in southern California.

2429
02:12:34,360 --> 02:12:40,600
Speaker 4: Great work, great work, everybody, fantastic stuff. They're on it now, Garrison.

2430
02:12:41,160 --> 02:12:43,240
Speaker 8: And so at this point, the LA Field Office opens

2431
02:12:43,240 --> 02:12:47,320
Speaker 8: an investigation into members in the area. Now I kind

2432
02:12:47,360 --> 02:12:52,160
Speaker 8: of hope this isn't true, right, Like, I hope that

2433
02:12:52,240 --> 02:12:56,000
Speaker 8: this is not a correct summary of these events, because

2434
02:12:56,080 --> 02:12:58,320
Speaker 8: if it really took someone calling the FBI to say, like, hey,

2435
02:12:58,360 --> 02:13:00,080
Speaker 8: I heard a guy bragging about doing crime.

2436
02:13:01,480 --> 02:13:04,200
Speaker 4: That definitely no, that is definitely how this went down.

2437
02:13:04,360 --> 02:13:06,440
Speaker 4: Absolutely that makes so much sense.

2438
02:13:06,800 --> 02:13:09,760
Speaker 8: But then it took three months of investigating to figure

2439
02:13:09,800 --> 02:13:12,360
Speaker 8: out that the guys who recruit for their Nazi gang

2440
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:14,880
Speaker 8: at a bar in LA probably live in LA.

2441
02:13:15,640 --> 02:13:19,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean that is This is kind of

2442
02:13:20,000 --> 02:13:26,400
Speaker 4: how the FBI investigates white supremacist groups, but they have

2443
02:13:27,240 --> 02:13:31,080
Speaker 4: they're too busy investigating teenagers in black hoodies. They can't.

2444
02:13:31,360 --> 02:13:34,080
Speaker 4: They can't bother to spare the manpower for this. There's

2445
02:13:34,120 --> 02:13:35,200
Speaker 4: Antifa out there.

2446
02:13:35,760 --> 02:13:38,240
Speaker 8: By the time they got this tip from the bartender,

2447
02:13:38,440 --> 02:13:40,920
Speaker 8: that Pro Publica article was already out. Why did it

2448
02:13:40,960 --> 02:13:42,840
Speaker 8: take them three months to find out that the guys

2449
02:13:42,840 --> 02:13:46,480
Speaker 8: whose names were already in the newspaper lived in California.

2450
02:13:46,560 --> 02:13:51,840
Speaker 4: I don't know I trust anyone who lives in Virginia, So.

2451
02:13:51,920 --> 02:13:54,200
Speaker 8: It took them a few months, Right, it took some time.

2452
02:13:55,760 --> 02:13:57,480
Speaker 8: I hope that's not true, but it is what the

2453
02:13:57,560 --> 02:14:01,320
Speaker 8: government has put on the record as the truth. So anyway,

2454
02:14:01,720 --> 02:14:03,760
Speaker 8: that's how this case starts. Right, So, these eight members

2455
02:14:03,800 --> 02:14:06,080
Speaker 8: of RAM are charged for in Virginia for in California

2456
02:14:06,160 --> 02:14:09,880
Speaker 8: with rioting and conspiracy to riot. Just for efficiency's sake,

2457
02:14:10,000 --> 02:14:12,040
Speaker 8: I'll just say that the cases in Virginia are fully

2458
02:14:12,120 --> 02:14:15,440
Speaker 8: resolved daily Miss Elliskillen, and White all pleaded guilty. There

2459
02:14:15,480 --> 02:14:18,120
Speaker 8: were some later unsuccessful appeals where when they after they

2460
02:14:18,160 --> 02:14:20,200
Speaker 8: saw what happened in the California cases, they're like, ooh,

2461
02:14:20,520 --> 02:14:23,200
Speaker 8: actually us too, can we But that didn't work, and

2462
02:14:23,280 --> 02:14:25,480
Speaker 8: their convictions stood and that's all over.

2463
02:14:26,240 --> 02:14:27,080
Speaker 4: Where is daily?

2464
02:14:27,160 --> 02:14:27,280
Speaker 9: Now?

2465
02:14:27,400 --> 02:14:30,400
Speaker 4: Is he out again? There? He's out, He's out. Yeah,

2466
02:14:30,440 --> 02:14:30,840
Speaker 4: yeah yeah.

2467
02:14:31,720 --> 02:14:34,520
Speaker 8: White didn't get any additional time after his plea because

2468
02:14:34,520 --> 02:14:36,440
Speaker 8: he was so cooperative, and the other three all got

2469
02:14:36,760 --> 02:14:37,800
Speaker 8: less than three years.

2470
02:14:38,040 --> 02:14:39,360
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, So they're out.

2471
02:14:40,440 --> 02:14:42,960
Speaker 8: But these California cases where Roundo is charged, they have

2472
02:14:43,040 --> 02:14:47,360
Speaker 8: been a mess from day one, so the charge October

2473
02:14:47,400 --> 02:14:51,000
Speaker 8: twenty eighteen. In twenty nineteen, Judge Cormack Carney dismissed the

2474
02:14:51,080 --> 02:14:54,440
Speaker 8: charges in California, saying that the Riot Act was unconstitutionally

2475
02:14:54,520 --> 02:14:58,240
Speaker 8: overbroad and its application violated the defendant's First Amendment rights.

2476
02:14:58,640 --> 02:15:02,560
Speaker 9: So true, First, I'm a defender here. That's right, travel

2477
02:15:02,640 --> 02:15:05,560
Speaker 9: across state lines to riot endorsed by this judge.

2478
02:15:06,880 --> 02:15:09,400
Speaker 8: That's free speech. Garrison like love it or leave it,

2479
02:15:09,480 --> 02:15:14,120
Speaker 8: go back to Canada. So the prosecutor appealed that ruling

2480
02:15:14,240 --> 02:15:18,040
Speaker 8: because it was hawk garbage, and the Ninth Circuit agreed.

2481
02:15:18,560 --> 02:15:20,880
Speaker 8: It takes a long time for things to get appealed.

2482
02:15:20,920 --> 02:15:24,080
Speaker 8: It's like slower than watching grass grow. So the Ninth

2483
02:15:24,120 --> 02:15:26,840
Speaker 8: Circuit reversed that ruling in March of twenty twenty one,

2484
02:15:27,200 --> 02:15:30,560
Speaker 8: reinstating the indictments. Things move really so so you know,

2485
02:15:30,600 --> 02:15:32,480
Speaker 8: it took two years for them to reverse it and

2486
02:15:32,520 --> 02:15:34,480
Speaker 8: then another year to enter the order. So it wasn't

2487
02:15:34,560 --> 02:15:36,600
Speaker 8: until February of twenty twenty two that the case was

2488
02:15:36,680 --> 02:15:39,160
Speaker 8: formally reopened, in.

2489
02:15:39,240 --> 02:15:43,680
Speaker 9: Which case, around this time, Rondo's trying to like hide

2490
02:15:43,800 --> 02:15:47,840
Speaker 9: in Eastern Europe and eventually get sent back to the

2491
02:15:47,960 --> 02:15:51,120
Speaker 9: United States. Curiously around the same time that Andrew Tate.

2492
02:15:51,240 --> 02:15:57,440
Speaker 9: Does God imagine an Andrew tape Rob Rundo fight. Oh okay,

2493
02:15:57,520 --> 02:15:59,360
Speaker 9: I wouldn't pay money because I don't want to support them,

2494
02:15:59,480 --> 02:16:00,960
Speaker 9: but I would love to watch that.

2495
02:16:01,320 --> 02:16:04,160
Speaker 8: Actually send them both back to Romania and let them fight.

2496
02:16:04,440 --> 02:16:09,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, by the time that the.

2497
02:16:09,320 --> 02:16:13,120
Speaker 8: California Ram defendants are re indicted on the original charges,

2498
02:16:13,280 --> 02:16:15,800
Speaker 8: it's January of twenty twenty three, and only three of

2499
02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:18,240
Speaker 8: them get reindicted because Aaron Eeson has died.

2500
02:16:19,520 --> 02:16:22,640
Speaker 4: So sad. It doesn't say much more than that a

2501
02:16:22,800 --> 02:16:25,440
Speaker 4: tragic loss of life. I don't know.

2502
02:16:25,640 --> 02:16:26,760
Speaker 8: I don't want to, I guess I don't want to

2503
02:16:26,760 --> 02:16:28,480
Speaker 8: speculate because it doesn't say on the record, and I

2504
02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:31,280
Speaker 8: was unable to determine. I can't find anything other than

2505
02:16:31,280 --> 02:16:33,520
Speaker 8: the court record. Dismissing his charges because he was dead.

2506
02:16:33,560 --> 02:16:36,000
Speaker 8: I can't find any record of his death. It must

2507
02:16:36,040 --> 02:16:39,160
Speaker 8: have just been, you know, private. But you know, you

2508
02:16:39,200 --> 02:16:41,080
Speaker 8: were talking about that RAM episode a couple years ago

2509
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:43,400
Speaker 8: about how you know they're all about clean living and fighting.

2510
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:46,199
Speaker 4: They're all straight edge, except for all of the ones

2511
02:16:46,240 --> 02:16:47,039
Speaker 4: who do trucks.

2512
02:16:47,200 --> 02:16:49,880
Speaker 8: A lot of them have really serious drug problems. And

2513
02:16:49,920 --> 02:16:51,600
Speaker 8: I don't know for a fact what was going on

2514
02:16:51,680 --> 02:16:54,400
Speaker 8: with Aaron Eesan, but I know Robert Bowman had some

2515
02:16:54,520 --> 02:16:57,480
Speaker 8: trouble staying out on bond due to a very severe

2516
02:16:57,560 --> 02:17:01,920
Speaker 8: meth addiction. Yes, yes, so I don't know what happened

2517
02:17:01,920 --> 02:17:04,680
Speaker 8: to Aaron Eastan, but very very pure. You gotta keep

2518
02:17:04,680 --> 02:17:08,840
Speaker 8: the blood line pure. So they're reindicted January twenty twenty three.

2519
02:17:09,080 --> 02:17:10,880
Speaker 8: And as you guys talked about back in twenty twenty one,

2520
02:17:11,080 --> 02:17:13,480
Speaker 8: Rondo had been living in Serbia for most of this time.

2521
02:17:14,080 --> 02:17:18,440
Speaker 8: He is overseas making friends, doing fight club, doing Nazi stuff,

2522
02:17:18,560 --> 02:17:19,119
Speaker 8: hang out.

2523
02:17:19,959 --> 02:17:24,240
Speaker 9: Making bad T shirts, doing bad graffiti, mostly opening up

2524
02:17:24,320 --> 02:17:26,840
Speaker 9: T shirt factories. It's really what he spent a lot

2525
02:17:26,879 --> 02:17:27,760
Speaker 9: of times.

2526
02:17:27,680 --> 02:17:31,760
Speaker 8: Really about the merch You have to merchandise.

2527
02:17:31,840 --> 02:17:35,320
Speaker 9: That's the Hey, if you took away. One thing from

2528
02:17:35,560 --> 02:17:38,800
Speaker 9: Revolt against the Modern World. It's that Ovola loved merch.

2529
02:17:39,040 --> 02:17:41,720
Speaker 9: That's the biggest through line in that work. It's you

2530
02:17:41,800 --> 02:17:45,520
Speaker 9: got to sell those stickers, man, You have to.

2531
02:17:45,720 --> 02:17:48,959
Speaker 8: It's a sort of a pointy shaped operation.

2532
02:17:49,160 --> 02:17:49,280
Speaker 2: Right.

2533
02:17:49,360 --> 02:17:51,760
Speaker 8: The guys on the bottom have to keep selling the

2534
02:17:51,800 --> 02:17:54,360
Speaker 8: stickers to the guys, and you have to make new bottoms. Right,

2535
02:17:54,440 --> 02:17:58,720
Speaker 8: there's there's no bottom. It is a pyramid scheme. Patriot

2536
02:17:58,800 --> 02:17:59,920
Speaker 8: Ron is a pyramid scheme.

2537
02:18:00,680 --> 02:18:04,560
Speaker 9: Well, and Patriot Front and Rondo had the same sticker

2538
02:18:04,640 --> 02:18:09,680
Speaker 9: manufacturer for quite a while. Their websites, well, their merch

2539
02:18:09,760 --> 02:18:11,200
Speaker 9: websites were identical.

2540
02:18:12,680 --> 02:18:15,280
Speaker 8: Look, I mean, how many webmasters can these Nazi groups have.

2541
02:18:15,560 --> 02:18:18,160
Speaker 8: It's gotta be one guy. Yeah, they do not have

2542
02:18:18,200 --> 02:18:22,240
Speaker 8: a graphic designer. So anyway, so he's in Serbia. In

2543
02:18:22,440 --> 02:18:25,080
Speaker 8: twenty twenty one, Serbia made a big show of saying like, oh, like,

2544
02:18:25,160 --> 02:18:28,240
Speaker 8: he's not welcome here. He's deported to Bosnia. He was

2545
02:18:28,320 --> 02:18:30,040
Speaker 8: still in Serbia. I think Bell and Cat has some

2546
02:18:30,440 --> 02:18:34,039
Speaker 8: great articles tracking exactly where in Belgrade Rondo was hanging out.

2547
02:18:34,240 --> 02:18:36,120
Speaker 8: But Serbia was like, no, he's not here, we can't

2548
02:18:36,200 --> 02:18:38,120
Speaker 8: He's not welcome here. He's in Bosnia. Bonni was like,

2549
02:18:38,440 --> 02:18:41,280
Speaker 8: he's not fucking here. He was in Serbia.

2550
02:18:41,920 --> 02:18:44,320
Speaker 9: He kept trying to lie to He tried to like

2551
02:18:44,680 --> 02:18:47,120
Speaker 9: like make people think he was somewhere else, but he

2552
02:18:47,240 --> 02:18:50,480
Speaker 9: just couldn't stop posting. And if you ever post anything

2553
02:18:50,560 --> 02:18:54,720
Speaker 9: outside or really even inside you you can be found.

2554
02:18:54,840 --> 02:18:57,440
Speaker 9: So like, he couldn't stop posting, and every single time

2555
02:18:57,440 --> 02:19:01,480
Speaker 9: he'd be like, haha, the CIA asked, it's a belly cat.

2556
02:19:01,600 --> 02:19:04,360
Speaker 9: Think I'm here when in fact I'm actually over there,

2557
02:19:04,440 --> 02:19:06,160
Speaker 9: and you're like, no, you're actually right here. It's really

2558
02:19:06,200 --> 02:19:08,520
Speaker 9: easy to find out where you are. You posted yourself

2559
02:19:08,560 --> 02:19:11,240
Speaker 9: standing next to this tree. There's only one type of

2560
02:19:11,320 --> 02:19:13,240
Speaker 9: this tree in this area. It's obvious you're right here,

2561
02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:14,480
Speaker 9: and it's like you can.

2562
02:19:14,600 --> 02:19:16,879
Speaker 8: Post all you like. If you have terminal posting disease,

2563
02:19:16,920 --> 02:19:19,400
Speaker 8: you can keep posting, which is like, don't post photographs

2564
02:19:19,440 --> 02:19:20,880
Speaker 8: of yourself in a place.

2565
02:19:21,360 --> 02:19:24,000
Speaker 9: He can't He can't stop, He can't stop, won't stop.

2566
02:19:24,240 --> 02:19:26,320
Speaker 9: My favorite old Rundo lore is that he had this

2567
02:19:26,440 --> 02:19:29,640
Speaker 9: YouTube series called Tea Time with Robert Rundo that I

2568
02:19:30,200 --> 02:19:33,360
Speaker 9: still think about about once a week, where he would

2569
02:19:33,400 --> 02:19:36,000
Speaker 9: give his Nazi followers advice on how to flee the

2570
02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:39,640
Speaker 9: country if they have a felony while sitting at like

2571
02:19:39,760 --> 02:19:43,280
Speaker 9: a European cafe filming on his iPhone. It's the most

2572
02:19:43,360 --> 02:19:47,120
Speaker 9: it's the funniest thing I've ever seen in the sane world.

2573
02:19:47,240 --> 02:19:50,240
Speaker 8: Evidence like that would make a judge say, mmm, I

2574
02:19:50,280 --> 02:19:51,680
Speaker 8: don't think we should let you back.

2575
02:19:51,600 --> 02:19:56,440
Speaker 4: Out, considering you made instructions.

2576
02:19:58,000 --> 02:20:02,039
Speaker 8: So finally, in March of twenty twenty three, he's freshly reindicted.

2577
02:20:02,080 --> 02:20:04,080
Speaker 8: In January twenty twenty three. March of twenty twenty three,

2578
02:20:04,800 --> 02:20:07,880
Speaker 8: the Romanian police are like, we fucking found him, got him.

2579
02:20:08,040 --> 02:20:10,400
Speaker 8: He's here in Romania. So he's arrested in Romania and

2580
02:20:10,480 --> 02:20:12,120
Speaker 8: it takes a few months to sort out all the

2581
02:20:12,160 --> 02:20:14,160
Speaker 8: paperwork and get him extra dated back to the US

2582
02:20:14,480 --> 02:20:18,360
Speaker 8: in August of twenty twenty three. You know what won't

2583
02:20:18,480 --> 02:20:21,640
Speaker 8: get you indicted on federal felony charges that result in

2584
02:20:21,720 --> 02:20:23,680
Speaker 8: you being extradited from a Romanian prison.

2585
02:20:24,560 --> 02:20:26,959
Speaker 9: Listening to these ads as long as we declare them

2586
02:20:27,040 --> 02:20:30,960
Speaker 9: as My FTC training today taught me how to do so. Yes,

2587
02:20:31,000 --> 02:20:33,080
Speaker 9: these are all paid advertisements. We're not allowed to call

2588
02:20:33,120 --> 02:20:36,800
Speaker 9: them promoted content to we have to call them ads.

2589
02:20:37,160 --> 02:20:39,039
Speaker 8: These are advertised I believe.

2590
02:20:38,840 --> 02:20:40,960
Speaker 9: That was part of my training today. So to make

2591
02:20:41,000 --> 02:20:46,000
Speaker 9: sure I don't go to prison enjoy these paid advertisements.

2592
02:20:57,280 --> 02:21:00,959
Speaker 8: Well, I hope you enjoyed those paid advertiste ads.

2593
02:21:01,959 --> 02:21:02,520
Speaker 6: This is weird.

2594
02:21:02,560 --> 02:21:05,039
Speaker 9: We're only airing them because they're paying us money. These

2595
02:21:05,320 --> 02:21:09,040
Speaker 9: are not our sincere belief. Way, we can't say that either.

2596
02:21:09,200 --> 02:21:11,160
Speaker 9: There's really no way to win. There's no way to

2597
02:21:11,240 --> 02:21:14,680
Speaker 9: win here anyway. I'm going to the war against the

2598
02:21:14,800 --> 02:21:18,920
Speaker 9: ftc so so true. So that more or less gets

2599
02:21:19,000 --> 02:21:22,280
Speaker 9: us up to the current controversy. So we get Rundo

2600
02:21:22,400 --> 02:21:25,240
Speaker 9: back August twenty twenty three, and then February twenty twenty four,

2601
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:29,560
Speaker 9: about ten days ago, Judge Karney dismisses the case again.

2602
02:21:30,959 --> 02:21:33,760
Speaker 9: So back in twenty nineteen, Karney said, no, there's no

2603
02:21:33,879 --> 02:21:36,279
Speaker 9: crime here. This is just protected for some m activities.

2604
02:21:36,480 --> 02:21:38,760
Speaker 9: You can't use the Riot Act. That's unconstitutional, right, And

2605
02:21:38,840 --> 02:21:42,720
Speaker 9: he dismisses the case, and the Ninth Circus says, no, no,

2606
02:21:42,840 --> 02:21:44,800
Speaker 9: I don't think so that's not how we're reading this.

2607
02:21:44,959 --> 02:21:47,240
Speaker 9: You got to take the case back, so it gets

2608
02:21:47,320 --> 02:21:50,400
Speaker 9: remanded back to the same judge. It goes back to

2609
02:21:50,480 --> 02:21:53,240
Speaker 9: Judge Karney, but of course Rundo's missing now it takes

2610
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:54,680
Speaker 9: a while to get him back. And so he finally

2611
02:21:54,680 --> 02:21:57,000
Speaker 9: gets his defendant back from his Nazi laer in Eastern Europe,

2612
02:21:57,280 --> 02:21:59,600
Speaker 9: he has to come up with a new reason why

2613
02:21:59,800 --> 02:22:02,280
Speaker 9: not street fighting gang shouldn't be charged with a crime.

2614
02:22:02,760 --> 02:22:04,680
Speaker 8: Okay, So like it's obvious, he just doesn't want to

2615
02:22:04,680 --> 02:22:06,959
Speaker 8: fucking try this case. So he has to come up

2616
02:22:07,000 --> 02:22:10,760
Speaker 8: with a new reason. And honestly, I think no shade

2617
02:22:10,760 --> 02:22:13,199
Speaker 8: to the federal public defender, right, Rendo has a public defender.

2618
02:22:13,560 --> 02:22:16,640
Speaker 8: It is their job to throw everything at the wall

2619
02:22:16,680 --> 02:22:19,320
Speaker 8: and see what sticks. They're providing zealous defense to their clients.

2620
02:22:19,360 --> 02:22:22,080
Speaker 8: So they write up what I would say, in my

2621
02:22:22,240 --> 02:22:26,119
Speaker 8: personal opinion, was an absolute dogshit motion, and I think

2622
02:22:26,160 --> 02:22:28,040
Speaker 8: maybe they knew that too. I don't know, they're just

2623
02:22:28,080 --> 02:22:30,520
Speaker 8: doing their jobs. I think Judge Carney would have agreed

2624
02:22:30,560 --> 02:22:33,200
Speaker 8: with whatever they put on paper. He gets this motion

2625
02:22:33,280 --> 02:22:36,080
Speaker 8: and he's like, yes, for sure, dismissed again. So true,

2626
02:22:36,680 --> 02:22:39,600
Speaker 8: and this time it's selective prosecution that if the government

2627
02:22:39,640 --> 02:22:41,920
Speaker 8: wants to charge Ram with rioting, they would have had

2628
02:22:41,959 --> 02:22:44,080
Speaker 8: to charge Antifa too, because otherwise it's not fair.

2629
02:22:44,360 --> 02:22:46,440
Speaker 4: What should they do all the fucking time?

2630
02:22:48,680 --> 02:22:50,200
Speaker 8: It's just not fair?

2631
02:22:50,520 --> 02:22:55,080
Speaker 4: I mean this case does actually like showcase like selective prosecution,

2632
02:22:55,240 --> 02:22:58,119
Speaker 4: the fact that you wire super willing to drop charges

2633
02:22:58,120 --> 02:23:00,840
Speaker 4: against a white supremacists but will send and like quote

2634
02:23:00,879 --> 02:23:05,440
Speaker 4: unquote Antifa gay gay teenagers to prison for going to

2635
02:23:05,520 --> 02:23:10,120
Speaker 4: a BLM protest, Like yeah, that actually does show exactly

2636
02:23:10,240 --> 02:23:13,320
Speaker 4: how these cases are very selectively prosecuted.

2637
02:23:13,680 --> 02:23:15,480
Speaker 8: Right, Like these guys are playing on easy mode, and

2638
02:23:15,520 --> 02:23:18,039
Speaker 8: as soon as they draw the wrong card, it's like, well,

2639
02:23:18,080 --> 02:23:20,960
Speaker 8: this deck is stcked, this deck is stacked right, And

2640
02:23:21,040 --> 02:23:23,480
Speaker 8: so now I'm again we talked about this before a garrison.

2641
02:23:23,600 --> 02:23:25,640
Speaker 8: I'm not a lawyer, we know this, but I am

2642
02:23:25,720 --> 02:23:28,680
Speaker 8: an enthusiastic consumer of the law, and I did read

2643
02:23:28,720 --> 02:23:33,840
Speaker 8: a bunch of law review articles today. Okay, select prosecution

2644
02:23:34,600 --> 02:23:37,480
Speaker 8: sounds like the kind of thing that could work, right, Like, oh,

2645
02:23:37,600 --> 02:23:41,960
Speaker 8: it's not constitutional to selectively prosecute based on maybia a

2646
02:23:41,959 --> 02:23:44,760
Speaker 8: protected characteristic right, like if you're only prosecuting black people

2647
02:23:44,800 --> 02:23:47,080
Speaker 8: for a crime, Like, of course that's wrong. But here's

2648
02:23:47,120 --> 02:23:51,800
Speaker 8: the thing. It doesn't work. It never works. This is

2649
02:23:51,879 --> 02:23:54,440
Speaker 8: not an argument that is effective. I want to say,

2650
02:23:54,480 --> 02:23:57,200
Speaker 8: it never works. It is generally not an effective argument.

2651
02:23:57,600 --> 02:24:00,840
Speaker 8: Even when a layperson could look at and say, oh, yeah,

2652
02:24:00,879 --> 02:24:03,240
Speaker 8: that is kind of fucked up. It just doesn't work.

2653
02:24:03,320 --> 02:24:05,640
Speaker 8: You can't just walk into court and say, you know, well,

2654
02:24:05,680 --> 02:24:08,119
Speaker 8: your honor, I was speeding, but so was everybody else

2655
02:24:08,160 --> 02:24:10,600
Speaker 8: on the interstate. It's unconstitutional to give me a ticket

2656
02:24:10,680 --> 02:24:12,520
Speaker 8: unless everyone gets a ticket, right that.

2657
02:24:13,000 --> 02:24:15,680
Speaker 4: It's not how it works. They're picking on me.

2658
02:24:15,879 --> 02:24:19,520
Speaker 8: It's yeah, you can't just say, you know, other people

2659
02:24:19,600 --> 02:24:21,720
Speaker 8: did what I did, but I'm the only one standing here,

2660
02:24:21,800 --> 02:24:22,400
Speaker 8: so it's not fair.

2661
02:24:23,040 --> 02:24:26,040
Speaker 4: You have to there's an actual structure to this. Oh

2662
02:24:26,160 --> 02:24:29,039
Speaker 4: Jay got away with it. That means I should too, right.

2663
02:24:29,280 --> 02:24:32,160
Speaker 8: Right, We're not catching every murderer, so like I should

2664
02:24:32,160 --> 02:24:35,520
Speaker 8: get a freebee. Yeah, so you have to show not

2665
02:24:35,640 --> 02:24:39,240
Speaker 8: only that there was a particular other individual who engaged

2666
02:24:39,280 --> 02:24:42,680
Speaker 8: in the same conduct who was not charged, but also

2667
02:24:42,840 --> 02:24:47,320
Speaker 8: that quote a federal prosecutorial policy had a discriminatory effect,

2668
02:24:47,800 --> 02:24:51,520
Speaker 8: and it was motivated by a discriminatory purpose. So in

2669
02:24:51,600 --> 02:24:54,080
Speaker 8: the speeding ticket analogy, right, you'd have to say, you know,

2670
02:24:54,200 --> 02:24:56,600
Speaker 8: I was doing eighty in the school zone, but so

2671
02:24:56,800 --> 02:24:59,760
Speaker 8: were these three other particular women like John Jane, and

2672
02:25:00,959 --> 02:25:03,480
Speaker 8: we're all doing it too, and we all got pulled over.

2673
02:25:04,200 --> 02:25:06,440
Speaker 8: But the cop only gave me a ticket because he

2674
02:25:06,560 --> 02:25:08,959
Speaker 8: hates men or something, right Like.

2675
02:25:09,959 --> 02:25:13,880
Speaker 4: You would have to show that based miss andres cop right.

2676
02:25:14,360 --> 02:25:15,800
Speaker 8: So you'd have to show that other people did the

2677
02:25:15,879 --> 02:25:18,400
Speaker 8: exact same thing you did, and it was possible for

2678
02:25:18,480 --> 02:25:21,080
Speaker 8: them to have gotten in trouble too, Yeah, but they

2679
02:25:21,160 --> 02:25:25,240
Speaker 8: didn't because of a particular form of discrimination. So in

2680
02:25:25,360 --> 02:25:27,800
Speaker 8: order to make a valid claim of selective prosecution, Rondo's

2681
02:25:27,879 --> 02:25:31,480
Speaker 8: lawyers would have to say, Look, here's Joe Antifa, a

2682
02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:34,760
Speaker 8: real guy who exists, and here is a materially similar

2683
02:25:34,840 --> 02:25:38,120
Speaker 8: set of circumstances in which Joe Antifa ran an organized

2684
02:25:38,160 --> 02:25:40,840
Speaker 8: group that got into fights on purpose, provoked confrontations, chase

2685
02:25:40,840 --> 02:25:42,680
Speaker 8: people to their cars, beat women in the streets, and

2686
02:25:42,680 --> 02:25:44,760
Speaker 8: then use that footage to recruit people to his gang.

2687
02:25:44,959 --> 02:25:48,480
Speaker 8: Right Like, here's Joe Antifa bragging online about targeting members

2688
02:25:48,520 --> 02:25:50,760
Speaker 8: of a particular minority group for brutal gang assaults at

2689
02:25:50,760 --> 02:25:54,080
Speaker 8: political rallies. Here's his group actively planning and organizing to

2690
02:25:54,160 --> 02:25:56,480
Speaker 8: travel to different cities and other states across the country

2691
02:25:56,520 --> 02:25:59,760
Speaker 8: with the explicit and stated goal of provoking and attacking people.

2692
02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:03,440
Speaker 8: You can't just say, well, Antifa didn't get charged. You

2693
02:26:03,600 --> 02:26:07,720
Speaker 8: have to present an actual person who did what you did,

2694
02:26:09,000 --> 02:26:10,960
Speaker 8: not just some other guy who did something you don't

2695
02:26:11,120 --> 02:26:13,840
Speaker 8: like or somebody else who maybe did kind of a crime.

2696
02:26:14,000 --> 02:26:14,959
Speaker 4: You have to say, this is a.

2697
02:26:15,000 --> 02:26:18,600
Speaker 8: Specific person and he did what I did in a

2698
02:26:18,720 --> 02:26:22,560
Speaker 8: materially similar way to the same degree that I did it,

2699
02:26:22,840 --> 02:26:24,840
Speaker 8: and with just as much evidence to support that.

2700
02:26:25,680 --> 02:26:27,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, And in the Ram case, there's so.

2701
02:26:27,959 --> 02:26:32,520
Speaker 8: Much evidence because they couldn't stop fucking posting, So they

2702
02:26:32,600 --> 02:26:36,360
Speaker 8: can't produce evidence that Antifa, to whatever degree that's a

2703
02:26:36,440 --> 02:26:40,440
Speaker 8: meaningful term here, engaged in similar behavior to what the

2704
02:26:40,520 --> 02:26:42,760
Speaker 8: evidence shows Ram did. Right, It's not just other people

2705
02:26:42,800 --> 02:26:46,240
Speaker 8: were fighting, And in this case that's kind of preposterous

2706
02:26:46,280 --> 02:26:49,480
Speaker 8: because the evidence does show that they specifically bragged, Like

2707
02:26:49,560 --> 02:26:52,840
Speaker 8: there's a text that was produced from Ben Daaley bragging

2708
02:26:52,879 --> 02:26:55,200
Speaker 8: about how they were first through the barricades at Berkeley.

2709
02:26:55,760 --> 02:26:58,640
Speaker 8: So you're acknowledging that you know there was this big

2710
02:26:58,760 --> 02:27:02,480
Speaker 8: riot and that you hearted it. Sure other people were

2711
02:27:02,520 --> 02:27:07,200
Speaker 8: fighting in the riot that you started on purpose, So

2712
02:27:07,320 --> 02:27:10,480
Speaker 8: no one else can be similarly situated to you, because

2713
02:27:10,520 --> 02:27:13,400
Speaker 8: even if they were fighting you started it, there has

2714
02:27:13,480 --> 02:27:17,880
Speaker 8: to be a real, actual other person who is similarly situated.

2715
02:27:17,959 --> 02:27:20,440
Speaker 8: That's an actual legal term that encompasses a sort of

2716
02:27:20,560 --> 02:27:23,840
Speaker 8: set of criteria. Is there a similar amount of evidence

2717
02:27:23,879 --> 02:27:26,720
Speaker 8: against this other person? Would it take a similar amount

2718
02:27:26,760 --> 02:27:29,800
Speaker 8: of state resources to investigate, arrest, and convict this person.

2719
02:27:31,280 --> 02:27:35,080
Speaker 8: We just don't have an organized militant street gang of

2720
02:27:35,120 --> 02:27:38,119
Speaker 8: Antifa that sold branded apparel and bragged about crimes online.

2721
02:27:38,160 --> 02:27:41,840
Speaker 8: There is no similarly situated, uncharged actor on the other

2722
02:27:41,959 --> 02:27:47,080
Speaker 8: side of this. That person doesn't exist. But it's even

2723
02:27:47,280 --> 02:27:50,200
Speaker 8: more than that. Even if we did have Joe Antifa,

2724
02:27:50,280 --> 02:27:52,560
Speaker 8: the gang leader who's bragging online about doing this kind

2725
02:27:52,560 --> 02:27:57,039
Speaker 8: of stuff, even if he existed, Even then, even then

2726
02:27:57,240 --> 02:28:00,040
Speaker 8: there is what's called prosecutorial discretion. There may be the

2727
02:28:00,120 --> 02:28:02,760
Speaker 8: reasons that we just aren't entitled to know about as

2728
02:28:02,800 --> 02:28:05,000
Speaker 8: to why a prosecutor made the decisions they did about

2729
02:28:05,000 --> 02:28:08,640
Speaker 8: who gets charged. For a selective prosecution argument to work,

2730
02:28:08,720 --> 02:28:10,400
Speaker 8: you have to show that this decision was made for

2731
02:28:10,480 --> 02:28:14,879
Speaker 8: a discriminatory purpose, and that's really hard to do because

2732
02:28:14,920 --> 02:28:17,480
Speaker 8: they're not going to tell you that right. You know,

2733
02:28:17,520 --> 02:28:20,560
Speaker 8: in an ideal world, selective prosecution would be an argument raised.

2734
02:28:21,160 --> 02:28:23,800
Speaker 8: You know about racial bias, because we do know that

2735
02:28:23,920 --> 02:28:27,960
Speaker 8: there is racial bias, and who is investigated arrested, charged,

2736
02:28:28,000 --> 02:28:30,320
Speaker 8: and convicted for crimes, like at every step along the way,

2737
02:28:30,720 --> 02:28:33,000
Speaker 8: there's a thumb on the scale against people of color.

2738
02:28:33,560 --> 02:28:36,760
Speaker 8: And even then, even when it is so obvious, even

2739
02:28:36,800 --> 02:28:38,440
Speaker 8: when you have, you know, a prosecutor who is a

2740
02:28:38,520 --> 02:28:42,360
Speaker 8: member of the fucking clan, even then these arguments don't

2741
02:28:42,480 --> 02:28:43,320
Speaker 8: tend to work.

2742
02:28:44,800 --> 02:28:46,800
Speaker 4: This should not have worked.

2743
02:28:48,040 --> 02:28:51,760
Speaker 8: But Judge Carney clearly just doesn't want this case prosecuted, right.

2744
02:28:51,800 --> 02:28:53,560
Speaker 8: I think it's it's very obvious that he just like

2745
02:28:54,879 --> 02:28:57,000
Speaker 8: thinks Rob Rundo is a nice boy who shouldn't have

2746
02:28:57,040 --> 02:29:00,840
Speaker 8: to go to jail for this is also, I think,

2747
02:29:01,360 --> 02:29:07,080
Speaker 8: notably about to retire. He hits he hits the minimum

2748
02:29:07,160 --> 02:29:10,160
Speaker 8: retirement age in May, and he is going to retire

2749
02:29:10,400 --> 02:29:13,920
Speaker 8: the day that he can. I think Megan Cuniff, who

2750
02:29:14,040 --> 02:29:17,000
Speaker 8: has a great blog, Legal Affairs, she's been covering this case.

2751
02:29:17,959 --> 02:29:20,360
Speaker 8: She noted in a tweet a few weeks ago that

2752
02:29:21,200 --> 02:29:23,920
Speaker 8: she knows that he intends to retire because he in

2753
02:29:24,040 --> 02:29:26,760
Speaker 8: rescheduling some hearings, said that that was the only day

2754
02:29:26,800 --> 02:29:28,960
Speaker 8: he could go to the retirement benefits class that he

2755
02:29:29,040 --> 02:29:30,720
Speaker 8: needs to go to to make sure he can retire

2756
02:29:31,080 --> 02:29:33,199
Speaker 8: the day he's eligible in May, so he just doesn't

2757
02:29:33,760 --> 02:29:35,280
Speaker 8: he just doesn't want to deal with this. Right that

2758
02:29:35,400 --> 02:29:38,000
Speaker 8: this was scheduled to go to trial in March and

2759
02:29:38,080 --> 02:29:40,960
Speaker 8: he's retiring in May. He just doesn't want to do it.

2760
02:29:42,560 --> 02:29:48,280
Speaker 9: What's the even the point anymore? What's even what? I

2761
02:29:48,440 --> 02:29:51,560
Speaker 9: just it's like, why are they even trying here? Like

2762
02:29:51,680 --> 02:29:54,120
Speaker 9: it just just just like kick the can down to

2763
02:29:54,200 --> 02:29:56,720
Speaker 9: someone else if you don't want to like deal with this.

2764
02:29:56,879 --> 02:29:59,440
Speaker 9: I don't know, it's turning this whole like I don't know.

2765
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:01,520
Speaker 9: I've read other things from this judge how he's like

2766
02:30:01,920 --> 02:30:04,359
Speaker 9: he's like very much into like this big like Antifa

2767
02:30:04,440 --> 02:30:06,039
Speaker 9: conspiracy theory, and.

2768
02:30:06,120 --> 02:30:08,200
Speaker 8: He's a little bit racist, like there was an issue

2769
02:30:08,240 --> 02:30:10,760
Speaker 8: he's oh, I'm shocked. He was chief Judge of the

2770
02:30:10,840 --> 02:30:12,959
Speaker 8: Circuit briefly, but he had to step down. So he's

2771
02:30:12,959 --> 02:30:16,400
Speaker 8: still a judge in the Central District of California, but

2772
02:30:16,440 --> 02:30:18,200
Speaker 8: he's not the chief judge anymore because he made a

2773
02:30:18,320 --> 02:30:22,240
Speaker 8: racist comment to the Clerk of court. So he's I mean,

2774
02:30:22,280 --> 02:30:23,960
Speaker 8: I think there's some stuff going on with Judge Carney.

2775
02:30:24,800 --> 02:30:26,640
Speaker 8: So I think he knows when he made this ruling

2776
02:30:26,720 --> 02:30:28,320
Speaker 8: that like the Ninth Circuit's going to send it back.

2777
02:30:28,360 --> 02:30:30,080
Speaker 8: But that's not gonna be his problem anymore because he's

2778
02:30:30,120 --> 02:30:32,960
Speaker 8: out of here in May. So you heard this like

2779
02:30:33,160 --> 02:30:36,520
Speaker 8: absolute dog shit argument, and he was like, so true, King,

2780
02:30:36,640 --> 02:30:39,720
Speaker 8: this is not fair. You are free to go go ahead,

2781
02:30:40,760 --> 02:30:43,320
Speaker 8: and he let him out same day, Like he heard

2782
02:30:43,360 --> 02:30:47,360
Speaker 8: this argument. He was like, absolutely, that's the one, go

2783
02:30:47,560 --> 02:30:50,360
Speaker 8: on home, and he let him out that day. There

2784
02:30:50,400 --> 02:30:53,040
Speaker 8: was attorney made a motion for an emergency stay, saying like, okay, well,

2785
02:30:53,200 --> 02:30:55,720
Speaker 8: let's just let's not get ahead of ourselves. Why don't

2786
02:30:55,720 --> 02:30:57,320
Speaker 8: we just hang on to him till we can talk

2787
02:30:57,360 --> 02:30:59,080
Speaker 8: to the Ninth Circuit about this, because I don't know,

2788
02:30:59,600 --> 02:31:02,040
Speaker 8: and that's it's pretty normal, that would be normal for

2789
02:31:02,120 --> 02:31:05,040
Speaker 8: the judge to say, let's give it a day. I mean,

2790
02:31:05,160 --> 02:31:06,720
Speaker 8: I want him release, but we'll give it a day.

2791
02:31:06,720 --> 02:31:08,600
Speaker 8: We'll let you get your paperwork in order. No, he

2792
02:31:08,680 --> 02:31:10,560
Speaker 8: just let him out, just let him out right that day,

2793
02:31:11,680 --> 02:31:15,760
Speaker 8: and considering his history of fleeing the country, not the

2794
02:31:15,800 --> 02:31:16,560
Speaker 8: call I would have made.

2795
02:31:17,120 --> 02:31:18,240
Speaker 4: It is quite the choice.

2796
02:31:20,040 --> 02:31:22,040
Speaker 8: So the very next day, the Ninth Circuit was like,

2797
02:31:22,240 --> 02:31:24,640
Speaker 8: hold on, let's get him back in custody while we

2798
02:31:24,720 --> 02:31:28,280
Speaker 8: think about this. And it makes no sense for CARNEI

2799
02:31:28,360 --> 02:31:30,960
Speaker 8: to deny the emergency state, that would be really normal

2800
02:31:31,720 --> 02:31:34,120
Speaker 8: to stay the decision until we have a chance to

2801
02:31:34,160 --> 02:31:36,280
Speaker 8: sort of think this through. Right, even if he truly

2802
02:31:36,360 --> 02:31:38,800
Speaker 8: believed with his whole heart that there's no way that

2803
02:31:38,879 --> 02:31:40,680
Speaker 8: this would ever get kicked back by the Ninth Circuit,

2804
02:31:40,760 --> 02:31:42,560
Speaker 8: that the case would stay dismissed and Rundo would be

2805
02:31:42,600 --> 02:31:45,200
Speaker 8: free to go, it would not be unusual to say,

2806
02:31:45,760 --> 02:31:48,120
Speaker 8: you know, well, this has been pretty contentious. The defendant

2807
02:31:48,160 --> 02:31:51,280
Speaker 8: has fled the country multiple times, so let's just hang

2808
02:31:51,320 --> 02:31:53,480
Speaker 8: on to him for twenty four forty eight hours while

2809
02:31:53,520 --> 02:31:55,600
Speaker 8: we go through the motions of getting that emergency hearing.

2810
02:31:55,680 --> 02:31:58,680
Speaker 8: But that's not what happened, because Robert Roundo is the

2811
02:31:58,920 --> 02:32:02,880
Speaker 8: definition of a flight risk. Yes he is.

2812
02:32:02,959 --> 02:32:08,320
Speaker 4: Like he's the platonic ideal form of a flight risk.

2813
02:32:08,959 --> 02:32:10,760
Speaker 8: I've sat through a lot of bond hearings and I

2814
02:32:10,879 --> 02:32:13,440
Speaker 8: know we are definitely not all using the same dictionary

2815
02:32:13,480 --> 02:32:15,240
Speaker 8: here when it comes to what is a flight risk.

2816
02:32:15,600 --> 02:32:18,360
Speaker 8: But you really can't find a guy who has done

2817
02:32:18,440 --> 02:32:21,080
Speaker 8: more to demonstrate than he absolutely can and will flee

2818
02:32:21,120 --> 02:32:24,440
Speaker 8: the country to avoid going back to court. He does

2819
02:32:24,560 --> 02:32:27,039
Speaker 8: not want to go to court. So back in twenty eighteen,

2820
02:32:27,320 --> 02:32:31,160
Speaker 8: when those two prosecutions were initially filed, right, the Virginia

2821
02:32:31,240 --> 02:32:34,640
Speaker 8: case was filed first, So when Ben Day was arrested,

2822
02:32:35,160 --> 02:32:38,040
Speaker 8: the charges hadn't actually been filed yet against rob Rundo.

2823
02:32:38,800 --> 02:32:40,920
Speaker 8: But I guess when they came to get Ben on

2824
02:32:41,000 --> 02:32:44,000
Speaker 8: October second, so eighteen days before the charges were filed

2825
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:46,680
Speaker 8: against rob Rundo himself, they came to get Ben in

2826
02:32:46,840 --> 02:32:49,760
Speaker 8: La and he's like, m time to get out of dodge, right,

2827
02:32:50,200 --> 02:32:51,520
Speaker 8: So I think that was the moment he was like

2828
02:32:51,920 --> 02:32:55,400
Speaker 8: I gotta go. You know, he knew they might be

2829
02:32:55,480 --> 02:33:00,800
Speaker 8: coming for him next. So first he tries going to Ukraine,

2830
02:33:00,840 --> 02:33:02,800
Speaker 8: which is a great place for a militant right wing

2831
02:33:02,920 --> 02:33:05,720
Speaker 8: extremists to go hang out with friends, right, And unfortunately

2832
02:33:05,800 --> 02:33:09,400
Speaker 8: for him, his flight had a layover in London. I

2833
02:33:09,480 --> 02:33:11,400
Speaker 8: don't know if it like didn't occur to him that

2834
02:33:11,720 --> 02:33:15,240
Speaker 8: maybe when they look at your passport, like maybe maybe

2835
02:33:15,280 --> 02:33:17,520
Speaker 8: the US government like anticipated that you would do this.

2836
02:33:18,320 --> 02:33:20,160
Speaker 8: But so he throw looks at us at his passport,

2837
02:33:20,240 --> 02:33:22,720
Speaker 8: it was like mm, the US government says, do not

2838
02:33:22,800 --> 02:33:24,960
Speaker 8: pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars, do not

2839
02:33:25,040 --> 02:33:28,120
Speaker 8: proceed to Nazi asylum, and they turn him back. Now,

2840
02:33:28,200 --> 02:33:30,800
Speaker 8: mind you, he's not arrested yet, right, they just won't

2841
02:33:30,840 --> 02:33:31,800
Speaker 8: let him go to Ukraine.

2842
02:33:32,120 --> 02:33:36,039
Speaker 4: Interesting, so he he doesn't. He doesn't get to London though.

2843
02:33:37,600 --> 02:33:40,120
Speaker 8: I think he gets to London and they were like, no,

2844
02:33:40,320 --> 02:33:42,440
Speaker 8: you can't, you can't go. I don't know how he

2845
02:33:42,520 --> 02:33:43,039
Speaker 8: got that far.

2846
02:33:43,480 --> 02:33:46,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that is that is intriguing. So back in

2847
02:33:46,800 --> 02:33:51,720
Speaker 4: California he walked to Mexico. Yeah, which is which is

2848
02:33:51,840 --> 02:33:54,600
Speaker 4: part of his tea tie with Robert Rundo advice.

2849
02:33:55,440 --> 02:33:57,680
Speaker 8: Right, So like he literally went on foot over the

2850
02:33:57,800 --> 02:34:00,320
Speaker 8: US Mexico border to avoid passport control and then he

2851
02:34:00,360 --> 02:34:03,840
Speaker 8: travel over land through Mexico into l Salvador, YEP, where

2852
02:34:03,959 --> 02:34:06,600
Speaker 8: he presumably intended to try getting on a plane. Again.

2853
02:34:06,920 --> 02:34:09,000
Speaker 9: You need you need to get far enough south so

2854
02:34:09,080 --> 02:34:12,280
Speaker 9: that when you fly you don't cross over American airspace.

2855
02:34:12,879 --> 02:34:15,520
Speaker 9: Other people in ram have tried this and have not

2856
02:34:15,680 --> 02:34:18,840
Speaker 9: gone far south enough, and their plane crosses over like

2857
02:34:18,920 --> 02:34:21,879
Speaker 9: the tip of US airsplace around Florida, and then they

2858
02:34:21,959 --> 02:34:25,440
Speaker 9: get flagged so that when they land they get they

2859
02:34:25,480 --> 02:34:26,800
Speaker 9: get like arrested or turned back.

2860
02:34:27,280 --> 02:34:29,879
Speaker 8: See that's so tricky, Like I pay funny, I'm got

2861
02:34:29,879 --> 02:34:32,560
Speaker 8: a plane ticket recently for vacation. I'm not fleeing the

2862
02:34:32,600 --> 02:34:33,360
Speaker 8: country or anything.

2863
02:34:33,600 --> 02:34:34,760
Speaker 4: Molly's flying everyone.

2864
02:34:35,320 --> 02:34:38,240
Speaker 8: I actually don't even have a passport, but when you

2865
02:34:38,280 --> 02:34:40,200
Speaker 8: buy a plane ticket, they do not provide for you

2866
02:34:40,560 --> 02:34:43,680
Speaker 8: a sort of schematic of the flight path. So I

2867
02:34:43,720 --> 02:34:45,880
Speaker 8: don't know how they're figuring this out. I guess they're not.

2868
02:34:46,000 --> 02:34:48,760
Speaker 9: If it's not a Rondo. I think typically tries to

2869
02:34:48,800 --> 02:34:50,440
Speaker 9: get far enough south that he just gets a direct

2870
02:34:50,480 --> 02:34:52,720
Speaker 9: flight to somewhere.

2871
02:34:52,360 --> 02:34:53,880
Speaker 4: In like the Middle East or eastern Europe.

2872
02:34:54,440 --> 02:34:56,320
Speaker 8: Well, I don't know if it would have worked, because

2873
02:34:56,400 --> 02:34:58,840
Speaker 8: when he got to l Salvador, the plane that he

2874
02:34:58,959 --> 02:35:02,280
Speaker 8: got on was not headed to Ukraine. It was headed

2875
02:35:02,320 --> 02:35:06,400
Speaker 8: back to lax in the company of some FBI agents hope.

2876
02:35:07,240 --> 02:35:10,000
Speaker 8: So they brought him back and he was formally arrested

2877
02:35:10,440 --> 02:35:13,240
Speaker 8: in the La airport when they brought him back. Very

2878
02:35:13,320 --> 02:35:15,800
Speaker 8: funny because in the weeks that he had spent trying

2879
02:35:15,879 --> 02:35:19,000
Speaker 8: to get away, the indictment against him had come back

2880
02:35:19,080 --> 02:35:33,560
Speaker 8: and he was also being charged. So after Judge Carney

2881
02:35:33,640 --> 02:35:36,160
Speaker 8: dropped the charges the first time back in twenty nineteen,

2882
02:35:36,360 --> 02:35:38,760
Speaker 8: Rondo got his passport back and immediately left the country again,

2883
02:35:38,840 --> 02:35:41,920
Speaker 8: traveling to Europe visiting other fascist fight clubs, and so

2884
02:35:42,160 --> 02:35:44,240
Speaker 8: you know, in this time period, the US Attorney is

2885
02:35:44,320 --> 02:35:47,200
Speaker 8: appealing the dismissal of the charges, like they they want

2886
02:35:47,280 --> 02:35:49,720
Speaker 8: to bring this case. They're, you know, they're waiting for

2887
02:35:49,760 --> 02:35:52,920
Speaker 8: the Ninth Circuit to hear them, but they're watching him

2888
02:35:53,879 --> 02:35:57,000
Speaker 8: cavorting around Eastern Europe and they're like they're filing motions saying, like,

2889
02:35:58,000 --> 02:35:59,840
Speaker 8: we really got to get him back, Like he's at

2890
02:35:59,840 --> 02:36:01,440
Speaker 8: an Nazi rally in Hungary.

2891
02:36:02,520 --> 02:36:03,800
Speaker 4: He's got a podcast.

2892
02:36:03,879 --> 02:36:05,840
Speaker 8: He's got a podcast where he's telling people how to

2893
02:36:05,959 --> 02:36:10,040
Speaker 8: evade capture by getting foreign passports, Like, we got to

2894
02:36:10,080 --> 02:36:10,640
Speaker 8: get him back.

2895
02:36:12,040 --> 02:36:12,959
Speaker 4: And so when the charges were.

2896
02:36:12,879 --> 02:36:15,040
Speaker 8: Finally reinstated by the Ninth Circuit in twenty twenty one,

2897
02:36:15,160 --> 02:36:17,600
Speaker 8: he'd been formally expelled from Serbia, where he'd been living,

2898
02:36:17,680 --> 02:36:20,720
Speaker 8: and he was eventually arrested in and extradited from Romania.

2899
02:36:21,240 --> 02:36:23,760
Speaker 8: And then when Judge Corney dismissed the charges again two

2900
02:36:23,760 --> 02:36:26,760
Speaker 8: weeks ago, and the Ninth Circuit was like, we gotta

2901
02:36:26,760 --> 02:36:28,280
Speaker 8: get him back. Do you know where they found him?

2902
02:36:28,720 --> 02:36:32,480
Speaker 8: The Mexican border? Oh curious, who could have predicted?

2903
02:36:32,959 --> 02:36:33,119
Speaker 9: Huh?

2904
02:36:33,560 --> 02:36:36,920
Speaker 8: So, like he really loves leading the country. Time is

2905
02:36:37,000 --> 02:36:41,800
Speaker 8: a flat circle, right, So Karnie lets him out he

2906
02:36:41,920 --> 02:36:44,360
Speaker 8: tries to leave the country again. Immediately the Ninth Circuit says,

2907
02:36:44,400 --> 02:36:47,760
Speaker 8: hold on, let's bring him back. And because this system

2908
02:36:48,080 --> 02:36:50,720
Speaker 8: works in just the most like insane imaginable ways, Like

2909
02:36:50,760 --> 02:36:54,039
Speaker 8: I guess when they wrote how this was gonna work,

2910
02:36:54,040 --> 02:36:55,920
Speaker 8: they just assumed everyone would act in good faith and

2911
02:36:55,959 --> 02:36:59,160
Speaker 8: they didn't put anything in for when that's not what happens.

2912
02:36:59,600 --> 02:37:01,640
Speaker 9: You know, I'm pretty sure that's in the Constitution. You

2913
02:37:01,720 --> 02:37:05,920
Speaker 9: have to assume good faith intentions. I believe the sixty

2914
02:37:06,040 --> 02:37:08,000
Speaker 9: ninth Amendment. You have to assume good faith.

2915
02:37:08,240 --> 02:37:10,160
Speaker 8: Everyone's going to be normal about this. We don't need

2916
02:37:10,200 --> 02:37:12,280
Speaker 8: to build in any contingencies here. So every time the

2917
02:37:12,360 --> 02:37:17,080
Speaker 8: Ninth Circuit is like, ooh, Judge Carney, that's nuts, they

2918
02:37:17,240 --> 02:37:19,680
Speaker 8: just have to send it back to him. They it

2919
02:37:19,720 --> 02:37:21,800
Speaker 8: doesn't get sent to a different judge. It's just they

2920
02:37:21,879 --> 02:37:23,400
Speaker 8: just keep sending it back to the guy who is

2921
02:37:23,440 --> 02:37:27,160
Speaker 8: bound and determined to ruin this right. So it gets

2922
02:37:27,200 --> 02:37:29,360
Speaker 8: sent back to Judge Carney. This case is still in

2923
02:37:29,480 --> 02:37:32,240
Speaker 8: front of Judge Carney. So the Ninth Circuit they put

2924
02:37:32,320 --> 02:37:34,720
Speaker 8: him back in and Judge Corney's like, I'm gonna le

2925
02:37:34,760 --> 02:37:36,640
Speaker 8: him back out, and the Ninth Circuit's like, no, you

2926
02:37:36,800 --> 02:37:40,600
Speaker 8: really really can't do that. You really can't do that.

2927
02:37:41,080 --> 02:37:44,000
Speaker 8: And he's being kind of a pissy little baby about this, right,

2928
02:37:44,200 --> 02:37:47,760
Speaker 8: Like the Ninth Circuit issues an order saying, like, no

2929
02:37:47,959 --> 02:37:51,520
Speaker 8: one can let him out but us. If he gets

2930
02:37:51,600 --> 02:37:53,920
Speaker 8: let out, it will because we said so no one

2931
02:37:53,959 --> 02:37:55,960
Speaker 8: can let him out. You can't do it. The Ninth

2932
02:37:56,000 --> 02:37:58,240
Speaker 8: Circuit said, so we're up here on top.

2933
02:37:59,080 --> 02:38:02,520
Speaker 9: This is fash as, this is tyranny, is fascis of,

2934
02:38:02,600 --> 02:38:05,560
Speaker 9: but the but the bad kind, the kind I don't

2935
02:38:05,760 --> 02:38:06,840
Speaker 9: like Robert Rundo.

2936
02:38:07,440 --> 02:38:09,080
Speaker 8: So Carney's on the bench and he's like, well I

2937
02:38:09,200 --> 02:38:12,040
Speaker 8: really want to though, and so he issues an order

2938
02:38:12,160 --> 02:38:16,040
Speaker 8: saying like he's released, but I'm going to stay my

2939
02:38:16,120 --> 02:38:17,520
Speaker 8: own order. I mean, like you know, I'm gonna enter

2940
02:38:17,600 --> 02:38:19,640
Speaker 8: this order saying he's released, but like it won't go

2941
02:38:19,680 --> 02:38:21,800
Speaker 8: into effect because technically I'm not allowed.

2942
02:38:22,200 --> 02:38:24,520
Speaker 9: That's such a such a door key of like pissed

2943
02:38:24,560 --> 02:38:26,840
Speaker 9: baby tantramoved from a judge.

2944
02:38:26,879 --> 02:38:31,160
Speaker 8: Like you're being a real baby, Cormac. And he says, quote,

2945
02:38:31,280 --> 02:38:33,200
Speaker 8: I would like to be in a position to release

2946
02:38:33,280 --> 02:38:35,040
Speaker 8: him right now and let him walk out the door.

2947
02:38:35,160 --> 02:38:38,959
Speaker 8: Well you can't, you can't. So it gets like stupid

2948
02:38:39,040 --> 02:38:41,680
Speaker 8: messy here, right, So the ninth Circuit put him back

2949
02:38:41,720 --> 02:38:44,240
Speaker 8: in and it comes back to Carney, and Carney's like, well,

2950
02:38:44,840 --> 02:38:47,800
Speaker 8: this arrest wasn't even legal. I should let him out

2951
02:38:47,840 --> 02:38:49,920
Speaker 8: because this you can't even you couldn't put him back in.

2952
02:38:50,360 --> 02:38:54,200
Speaker 4: You can't arrest someone without their being cause for a crime.

2953
02:38:55,040 --> 02:38:59,600
Speaker 8: Well, it is a little bit messy here, right. So

2954
02:39:00,840 --> 02:39:05,960
Speaker 8: Carney argues that Roundo's rearrest wasn't legal because he dismissed

2955
02:39:06,000 --> 02:39:09,680
Speaker 8: the case. So technically, when Rundo was arrested again, there

2956
02:39:10,000 --> 02:39:12,760
Speaker 8: was no charge against him. There is currently because the

2957
02:39:13,120 --> 02:39:16,240
Speaker 8: indictment was dismissed. You know, the prosecutor's appealing that that dismissal.

2958
02:39:16,640 --> 02:39:18,520
Speaker 8: Maybe it'll get reinstated like it did last time. But

2959
02:39:18,600 --> 02:39:22,120
Speaker 8: like right now, he is not charged with the crimes,

2960
02:39:22,160 --> 02:39:23,000
Speaker 8: which is which is.

2961
02:39:23,080 --> 02:39:25,440
Speaker 4: Ridiculous because there's so many other things you could charge

2962
02:39:25,480 --> 02:39:27,760
Speaker 4: him with, right just like find a different crime. Like

2963
02:39:27,840 --> 02:39:29,160
Speaker 4: there's like between all.

2964
02:39:29,080 --> 02:39:31,280
Speaker 9: Of his between all of his passport stuff, between all

2965
02:39:31,320 --> 02:39:34,760
Speaker 9: of his crossing the border, like there's there's so much

2966
02:39:34,840 --> 02:39:38,320
Speaker 9: other there's so many other things that you could you

2967
02:39:38,360 --> 02:39:39,400
Speaker 9: could decide to charge him with.

2968
02:39:39,560 --> 02:39:42,400
Speaker 8: Surely some FBI agent has been sort of keeping tabs

2969
02:39:42,440 --> 02:39:44,360
Speaker 8: on his activities and they could come up with something,

2970
02:39:44,400 --> 02:39:47,520
Speaker 8: but as it stands, when he was re arrested, there

2971
02:39:47,800 --> 02:39:51,120
Speaker 8: was no charge, right, Yeah, So the Ninth Circuit does

2972
02:39:51,280 --> 02:39:53,760
Speaker 8: have the authority to stay the release order. So Carney

2973
02:39:53,879 --> 02:39:57,280
Speaker 8: issued a release order saying let him out of jail, right,

2974
02:39:57,400 --> 02:40:01,000
Speaker 8: And so the prosecutor was like, we need an emergency

2975
02:40:01,080 --> 02:40:04,480
Speaker 8: hearing in front of the Ninth Circuit on that release order.

2976
02:40:04,640 --> 02:40:06,640
Speaker 8: So Carney issues the release order. The prosecutor goes to

2977
02:40:06,680 --> 02:40:09,200
Speaker 8: the Ninth Circuit and say, we need you to push

2978
02:40:09,280 --> 02:40:13,000
Speaker 8: the pause button on the implementation of this order. That's

2979
02:40:13,080 --> 02:40:16,600
Speaker 8: really normal. That should have been what happened. But because

2980
02:40:16,760 --> 02:40:20,120
Speaker 8: he was released immediately, you know, before they had a

2981
02:40:20,240 --> 02:40:24,680
Speaker 8: chance to get heard by the Ninth Circuit, Carney's argument,

2982
02:40:24,720 --> 02:40:27,920
Speaker 8: which I may maybe true here, right, is that by

2983
02:40:27,959 --> 02:40:31,600
Speaker 8: the time the Ninth Circuit heard the motion to stay

2984
02:40:31,879 --> 02:40:35,680
Speaker 8: the release order, it was moot. They can't hear argument

2985
02:40:35,760 --> 02:40:39,320
Speaker 8: on a motion that doesn't mean anything. You can't stay

2986
02:40:39,360 --> 02:40:42,680
Speaker 8: an order that's already been implemented. So once the release

2987
02:40:42,800 --> 02:40:45,080
Speaker 8: order was carried out and Rondo was no longer physically

2988
02:40:45,200 --> 02:40:48,040
Speaker 8: in custody, there was no order to stay so the

2989
02:40:48,120 --> 02:40:51,800
Speaker 8: Ninth Circuit had nothing to rule on, so they they

2990
02:40:51,959 --> 02:40:55,960
Speaker 8: rearrested him, saying like, we're staying the release order, but

2991
02:40:56,080 --> 02:40:59,200
Speaker 8: the order of operations there is kind of key. At

2992
02:40:59,240 --> 02:41:02,879
Speaker 8: the next hearing, Carney said, I must tell you from

2993
02:41:03,080 --> 02:41:05,680
Speaker 8: the little things I've read, I'm quite concerned. I feel

2994
02:41:05,720 --> 02:41:11,520
Speaker 8: mister Rundo is being unconstitutionally detained, and it's messy, and

2995
02:41:11,560 --> 02:41:12,960
Speaker 8: I don't know what the right answer is here, right, Like,

2996
02:41:13,040 --> 02:41:15,800
Speaker 8: It's not unusual for someone to stay in custody pending appeal,

2997
02:41:16,000 --> 02:41:19,600
Speaker 8: especially if they have repeatedly attempted and succeeded at fleeing

2998
02:41:19,640 --> 02:41:23,200
Speaker 8: the country. And Carney's refusal to stay the release order

2999
02:41:23,280 --> 02:41:25,280
Speaker 8: kind of makes you wonder if he didn't create this

3000
02:41:25,440 --> 02:41:27,320
Speaker 8: procedural nightmare intentionally.

3001
02:41:27,720 --> 02:41:32,080
Speaker 9: Sure, he kind of created this legal dilemma that now

3002
02:41:32,280 --> 02:41:36,480
Speaker 9: puts Rundo's incarceration in actually like a point of question.

3003
02:41:37,080 --> 02:41:39,440
Speaker 8: Right Like, he had to know that when the Ninth

3004
02:41:39,520 --> 02:41:43,640
Speaker 8: Circuit did hear this motion, they would probably reverse him.

3005
02:41:44,320 --> 02:41:47,160
Speaker 8: He had to know that, and he absolutely knew Rondo

3006
02:41:47,200 --> 02:41:50,520
Speaker 8: would flee the country before that could happen. And he's

3007
02:41:51,120 --> 02:41:54,560
Speaker 8: not wrong that it looks a little a little questionable

3008
02:41:54,640 --> 02:41:56,760
Speaker 8: to issue it arrest warrant when there is no live

3009
02:41:56,959 --> 02:42:00,000
Speaker 8: charge or the end result that Rundo is in custody

3010
02:42:00,600 --> 02:42:02,680
Speaker 8: pending some kind of further ruling from the Ninth Circuit.

3011
02:42:02,959 --> 02:42:06,680
Speaker 8: That's not weird, that's really normal. But everything that happened

3012
02:42:06,720 --> 02:42:11,560
Speaker 8: in between is a mess. I don't know what the

3013
02:42:11,600 --> 02:42:16,200
Speaker 8: answer to that is. I mean, I mean, as nuts

3014
02:42:16,240 --> 02:42:20,400
Speaker 8: as Carney is behaving like, he is probably right that

3015
02:42:20,560 --> 02:42:23,160
Speaker 8: you can't make a ruling on a moot motion and

3016
02:42:23,240 --> 02:42:25,120
Speaker 8: you can't arrest someone who's not charged with a crime,

3017
02:42:25,240 --> 02:42:27,840
Speaker 8: like those things are true. But I don't know what

3018
02:42:27,920 --> 02:42:29,760
Speaker 8: the answer is here, and I think it's his fault.

3019
02:42:30,400 --> 02:42:30,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3020
02:42:32,040 --> 02:42:35,359
Speaker 8: So at this point, right the government is appealing Carney's

3021
02:42:35,400 --> 02:42:37,480
Speaker 8: dismissal of the charges, just like they did back in

3022
02:42:37,520 --> 02:42:40,600
Speaker 8: twenty nineteen. Remember that it took almost two years from

3023
02:42:40,640 --> 02:42:43,520
Speaker 8: the original dismissal to the Ninth Circuit ruling reversing and

3024
02:42:43,560 --> 02:42:47,040
Speaker 8: remanding the case in twenty twenty one, so this could

3025
02:42:47,080 --> 02:42:49,160
Speaker 8: take a while. At this point, what the government is

3026
02:42:49,200 --> 02:42:52,040
Speaker 8: asking for is a stay of the release order to

3027
02:42:52,160 --> 02:42:55,200
Speaker 8: keep him in custody while they work through this appeals process,

3028
02:42:55,200 --> 02:42:57,760
Speaker 8: because they are appealing the dismissal of the indictment. I

3029
02:42:57,840 --> 02:42:59,840
Speaker 8: don't expect a lot of movement on that this week.

3030
02:43:00,000 --> 02:43:03,160
Speaker 8: I think the docket shows that the appellance brief is

3031
02:43:03,320 --> 02:43:06,280
Speaker 8: due on the twelfth today as we're recording this as

3032
02:43:06,320 --> 02:43:09,280
Speaker 8: the fourth, so they'll file that brief. They may file

3033
02:43:09,400 --> 02:43:12,000
Speaker 8: more sort of emergency petitions for his release. I'm not

3034
02:43:12,080 --> 02:43:15,480
Speaker 8: sure the Ninth Circuit will do that, but is anybody's

3035
02:43:15,520 --> 02:43:16,879
Speaker 8: guess at this point, because it's kind of.

3036
02:43:16,840 --> 02:43:17,440
Speaker 4: A big mess.

3037
02:43:17,920 --> 02:43:20,280
Speaker 8: The only thing that is clear is that only the

3038
02:43:20,360 --> 02:43:22,760
Speaker 8: Ninth Circuit can let Rob Rundo out.

3039
02:43:23,560 --> 02:43:24,800
Speaker 4: Well what a what a?

3040
02:43:26,840 --> 02:43:31,720
Speaker 9: What an enticing Rundo down have the legal events of

3041
02:43:31,840 --> 02:43:35,400
Speaker 9: this case. Don't want to be in that position.

3042
02:43:37,160 --> 02:43:40,360
Speaker 8: You know, Garrison, I'm not sure that you'll ever be

3043
02:43:40,520 --> 02:43:44,920
Speaker 8: in this position. I I hope not, at least not

3044
02:43:45,040 --> 02:43:48,520
Speaker 8: in this exact one, unless you're running a secret Nazi

3045
02:43:48,600 --> 02:43:52,240
Speaker 8: gang that I do not know about, in which case, disavow, disavow.

3046
02:43:52,440 --> 02:43:55,600
Speaker 4: Okay, that's good, that's good. Yeah, sure, that's probably the

3047
02:43:55,680 --> 02:44:02,280
Speaker 4: right move. But so it'll take some time. I don't know. Yeah,

3048
02:44:02,320 --> 02:44:03,760
Speaker 4: I don't know what else there is to say.

3049
02:44:06,160 --> 02:44:08,720
Speaker 8: This is like sort of inciting a lot of active

3050
02:44:08,760 --> 02:44:10,600
Speaker 8: club activity. You were saying earlier that the you know

3051
02:44:10,680 --> 02:44:13,039
Speaker 8: ram doesn't exist anymore. It's morphed into these active clubs.

3052
02:44:13,080 --> 02:44:15,520
Speaker 8: There's these cells all over the country and they are

3053
02:44:15,800 --> 02:44:17,760
Speaker 8: fired up about this. So I think this has the

3054
02:44:17,879 --> 02:44:23,400
Speaker 8: potential to incite more political violence, or at the very.

3055
02:44:23,320 --> 02:44:29,160
Speaker 9: Least incite more T shirt sales, which would be just

3056
02:44:29,280 --> 02:44:31,280
Speaker 9: as horrified to see one of those things out in

3057
02:44:31,320 --> 02:44:34,440
Speaker 9: the wild already marketing free Rundo merch.

3058
02:44:34,879 --> 02:44:35,039
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3059
02:44:35,080 --> 02:44:36,040
Speaker 3: I bet. Yeah.

3060
02:44:37,400 --> 02:44:40,440
Speaker 8: I guess even Nazis have constitutional rights.

3061
02:44:42,160 --> 02:44:42,720
Speaker 4: I guess they do.

3062
02:44:43,000 --> 02:44:47,480
Speaker 9: Although it does feel again slightly uh insidious at the

3063
02:44:48,000 --> 02:44:52,320
Speaker 9: selective non enforcement of some of these things where there's many,

3064
02:44:52,800 --> 02:44:56,760
Speaker 9: many people who are being held, especially like in Atlanta,

3065
02:44:56,760 --> 02:44:59,560
Speaker 9: it's been many people being helped out bail because they've

3066
02:44:59,560 --> 02:45:02,400
Speaker 9: been deemed a flight risk for for a long long

3067
02:45:02,520 --> 02:45:04,599
Speaker 9: time for crimes.

3068
02:45:04,480 --> 02:45:06,600
Speaker 8: Not because they hold like a Serbian passport.

3069
02:45:07,120 --> 02:45:11,520
Speaker 4: No, no, just because they attended a music festival. Right.

3070
02:45:11,760 --> 02:45:14,240
Speaker 8: I mean, it's hard to get like super fired up

3071
02:45:14,280 --> 02:45:17,080
Speaker 8: about rob Rundo's constitutional rights in terms of this this

3072
02:45:17,160 --> 02:45:20,120
Speaker 8: sort of like procedural quagmire when it's like people are

3073
02:45:20,320 --> 02:45:23,840
Speaker 8: actively and intentionally violating everyone else's constitutional rights constantly.

3074
02:45:24,560 --> 02:45:26,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, like the only thing I'm left to think of

3075
02:45:26,480 --> 02:45:28,600
Speaker 9: is how this whole system of law does not seem

3076
02:45:28,640 --> 02:45:32,400
Speaker 9: to work very much, and especially we often point out

3077
02:45:32,440 --> 02:45:35,360
Speaker 9: how a whole bunch of laws get put in place

3078
02:45:35,440 --> 02:45:39,440
Speaker 9: that are like ostensibly framed to like combat white supremacist

3079
02:45:39,680 --> 02:45:43,959
Speaker 9: terrorism or whatever, and in actuality really only get used

3080
02:45:44,000 --> 02:45:47,960
Speaker 9: against people fighting for like the rights of black people,

3081
02:45:48,080 --> 02:45:51,879
Speaker 9: people fighting for getting trains people not to be murdered.

3082
02:45:52,160 --> 02:45:54,840
Speaker 9: Like that's that's really what all these laws get targeted against,

3083
02:45:55,280 --> 02:45:59,200
Speaker 9: and they face so so much more harsh punishment because

3084
02:45:59,240 --> 02:46:01,760
Speaker 9: we have a judge who's treating Rob Rundo like a

3085
02:46:01,840 --> 02:46:05,600
Speaker 9: little a little baby, who's this innocent little creature. Meanwhile,

3086
02:46:05,760 --> 02:46:09,080
Speaker 9: people I can get constantly locked up for completely bullshit

3087
02:46:09,680 --> 02:46:12,520
Speaker 9: charges in other parts of the country for engaging it

3088
02:46:12,640 --> 02:46:16,840
Speaker 9: like actually like pretty pretty valid acts of protest, not

3089
02:46:16,959 --> 02:46:20,280
Speaker 9: even related to any like alleged violence. Like there's it's

3090
02:46:20,400 --> 02:46:24,760
Speaker 9: it's it's quite it's quite frustrating to to to look at. Yes,

3091
02:46:24,840 --> 02:46:27,519
Speaker 9: there is actually a decent case of selective enforcement.

3092
02:46:27,160 --> 02:46:29,520
Speaker 8: Here, and it's the other way around.

3093
02:46:30,000 --> 02:46:33,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, it is not in fact that they're letting Antifa

3094
02:46:33,879 --> 02:46:37,520
Speaker 9: run wild and burn down cities. In fact, these these

3095
02:46:37,920 --> 02:46:42,160
Speaker 9: these Nazis get treated like little little innocent First Amendment

3096
02:46:42,200 --> 02:46:47,400
Speaker 9: defenders as they purposely like talk about and brag about

3097
02:46:47,400 --> 02:46:50,000
Speaker 9: their claims of traveling across the country to assault people

3098
02:46:50,400 --> 02:46:51,320
Speaker 9: and start riots.

3099
02:46:51,959 --> 02:46:55,520
Speaker 4: Anyway, Well, that's that's not great.

3100
02:46:56,560 --> 02:46:57,600
Speaker 8: Things are not good.

3101
02:46:57,959 --> 02:46:59,439
Speaker 4: I hope only the worst.

3102
02:46:59,240 --> 02:47:02,840
Speaker 9: For Rundo, regardless of whatever legal thing happens, just like

3103
02:47:02,920 --> 02:47:07,240
Speaker 9: in general, like I like, I I wish him bad,

3104
02:47:07,400 --> 02:47:08,640
Speaker 9: just like in life, you know, like I hope you

3105
02:47:08,720 --> 02:47:10,600
Speaker 9: like trips and falls down the stairs, you know, just

3106
02:47:10,720 --> 02:47:12,800
Speaker 9: like in general, like stub is toe.

3107
02:47:12,760 --> 02:47:13,440
Speaker 4: Really bad.

3108
02:47:16,200 --> 02:47:18,800
Speaker 8: This situation, Like, there are a million outcomes here that

3109
02:47:18,879 --> 02:47:22,039
Speaker 8: are the dumbest possible ending to this story. So I'm

3110
02:47:22,080 --> 02:47:26,000
Speaker 8: not holding my breath for you know, some brilliant prosecutor

3111
02:47:26,120 --> 02:47:28,720
Speaker 8: to save the day here. But I do hope that

3112
02:47:29,160 --> 02:47:31,760
Speaker 8: that Rob Rundo continues to have a bad day regardless.

3113
02:47:32,200 --> 02:47:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you for.

3114
02:47:35,240 --> 02:47:38,320
Speaker 4: This lovely piece of legal research, Molly.

3115
02:47:39,440 --> 02:47:41,560
Speaker 8: Now I have to close eighty seven tabs.

3116
02:47:41,920 --> 02:47:43,720
Speaker 9: That is always the joy of wrapping up one of

3117
02:47:43,760 --> 02:47:46,280
Speaker 9: these episodes. It's closing the ridiculous amount of tabs that

3118
02:47:46,320 --> 02:47:49,600
Speaker 9: are open, because at at any moment in my research process,

3119
02:47:49,680 --> 02:47:51,440
Speaker 9: if any of my friends looks at my computer.

3120
02:47:51,600 --> 02:47:55,800
Speaker 4: They are horrified by the stress that I'm putting my

3121
02:47:55,920 --> 02:47:59,959
Speaker 4: own ram through different ram the other than the Yeah

3122
02:48:00,520 --> 02:48:01,879
Speaker 4: it is computer computer ram.

3123
02:48:01,879 --> 02:48:04,120
Speaker 8: Not also under considerable strain at this time.

3124
02:48:04,440 --> 02:48:05,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

3125
02:48:05,320 --> 02:48:07,680
Speaker 9: Well all right, feel like that's that's as bad enough

3126
02:48:07,720 --> 02:48:10,160
Speaker 9: a joke to end it on as anything else where.

3127
02:48:10,240 --> 02:48:11,600
Speaker 9: Can people find you online?

3128
02:48:11,640 --> 02:48:15,360
Speaker 8: Mall Oh gosh, yeah, I am online at Socialist dog

3129
02:48:15,440 --> 02:48:19,800
Speaker 8: Mom on Twitter, on my newsletter on ghost the Devil's Advocates,

3130
02:48:20,040 --> 02:48:22,320
Speaker 8: and I don't know my dogs have an Instagram that

3131
02:48:22,400 --> 02:48:25,720
Speaker 8: I haven't updated lately. It's auto m buck. That's it

3132
02:48:25,800 --> 02:48:26,840
Speaker 8: for me, How about you, Garrison.

3133
02:48:27,280 --> 02:48:30,560
Speaker 9: Oh, you can find me documenting my process of slowly

3134
02:48:30,600 --> 02:48:33,199
Speaker 9: turning my entire apartment into the Black Lodge on Twitter

3135
02:48:33,400 --> 02:48:38,400
Speaker 9: at Hungry Bowtie. All right, Wow, you can actually see

3136
02:48:38,440 --> 02:48:40,600
Speaker 9: a little bit of it behind me. It's kind of dark,

3137
02:48:40,680 --> 02:48:43,480
Speaker 9: but you can see a glimmer of red curtains. Yes,

3138
02:48:43,520 --> 02:48:46,360
Speaker 9: spooky back there, It is quite spooky back there. Wait

3139
02:48:46,480 --> 02:48:48,200
Speaker 9: until I turn wait until I turn on the strobe light.

3140
02:48:49,080 --> 02:48:51,959
Speaker 8: All right, thank you for joining me today, Garrison.

3141
02:48:52,720 --> 02:48:53,680
Speaker 4: All right, thank you, Molly.

3142
02:48:56,600 --> 02:48:56,760
Speaker 3: Hey.

3143
02:48:56,879 --> 02:48:59,879
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3144
02:49:00,320 --> 02:49:01,680
Speaker 2: until the heat death of the universe.

3145
02:49:02,320 --> 02:49:04,640
Speaker 4: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3146
02:49:04,920 --> 02:49:07,560
Speaker 10: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3147
02:49:07,600 --> 02:49:10,720
Speaker 10: Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3148
02:49:10,720 --> 02:49:13,920
Speaker 10: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3149
02:49:13,959 --> 02:49:16,600
Speaker 10: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at

3150
02:49:16,680 --> 02:49:19,880
Speaker 10: Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.