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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. Joining

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Speaker 1: us now for our weekly partnership segment with the lever,

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Speaker 1: the founder of that outlet, the one and only David

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Speaker 1: Sorotiger Caesar. Hey there, so you have some very timely

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Speaker 1: reporting about the Republican response to the seeming granting of

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Speaker 1: their every wish and desire, which is the imminent overturning

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Speaker 1: of Roe versus WAD, a project that they have been

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Speaker 1: dedicated to you creating this outcome for like close to

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Speaker 1: fifty years. But the reaction to it is very interesting.

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Speaker 1: So you detail some of this has god and put

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Speaker 1: this up on the screen. You say, McCarthy era law

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Speaker 1: aimed at pro choice protesters. Conservatives and corporate media pundits

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Speaker 1: want to use a red scare statute to arrest people

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Speaker 1: demonstrating against the GOP's looming anti abortion victory. So just

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Speaker 1: set this up for us, David. Sure, there's this controversy

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Speaker 1: within the controversy, I mean, there's the leaked ruling, and

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Speaker 1: then there's a lot of the commentary about whether the

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Speaker 1: leak was legal or who leaked. There's also the controversy

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Speaker 1: about the protests against the ruling. And just to start

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Speaker 1: out here, it's worth saying that it's a pretty pathetic

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Speaker 1: state of affairs in media and in politics, where the

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Speaker 1: top line story is the reaction to the extremism rather

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Speaker 1: than the extremism itself. But the reaction when it comes

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Speaker 1: to protest, I think is something. It tells us something.

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Speaker 1: The reaction has been one saying that protesters shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: allowed to protest near where Supreme Court justices live. Now,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of hypocrisy about this, considering the fact

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Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court itself effectively legalized protest near the

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Speaker 1: homes of people who work in women's health clinics. That

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Speaker 1: was a nineteen ninety ruling. In the mid nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: somehow we're supposed to forget about that. But there's now

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Speaker 1: also a call by folks like Senator Josh Hally of

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Speaker 1: Missouri to resurrect a sixty or seventy year old law

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Speaker 1: from literally the McCarthy era that was designed to outlaw

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Speaker 1: protest outside and near the Supreme Court by alleged to communists.

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Speaker 1: And what Hawley wants to do is essentially use that

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Speaker 1: law to and he's calling for it to arrest, detain,

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Speaker 1: and jail protesters anywhere near the homes of Supreme Court justices. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's be clear. You can agree or disagree with the

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Speaker 1: tactic of protesting near a judge's home in a legal,

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Speaker 1: peaceful way. You can say I don't think that's a

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Speaker 1: good tactic. Maybe you say that is a good tactic.

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Speaker 1: Wherever you come down on this. There's something deeper here,

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Speaker 1: which is the attempt to criminalize basic protest dissent demonstrations.

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Speaker 1: That's what's really an issue here, and trying to resurrect

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Speaker 1: this law, a law, by the way, pushed not only

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Speaker 1: by a sort of McCarthy era extremists, but also by segregationists. Well,

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Speaker 1: and this isn't just happening at the federal level. I

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Speaker 1: just saw this morning. Florida Governor Ronda Santa signed a

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Speaker 1: bill today that makes protesting outside of a person's home illegal.

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Speaker 1: So and he has been, you know, he has become

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Speaker 1: kind of a leader in launching this type of legislation

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Speaker 1: that other Republican state legislators then pick up. I think

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Speaker 1: it also very much exposes the lie of the idea

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Speaker 1: that the Republican Party is the quote unquote free speech

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Speaker 1: party totally. I mean, I mean, these are the same

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Speaker 1: people who have been running around to crying so called

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Speaker 1: King Ansel culture and screaming freedom, who are now trying

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Speaker 1: to quite literally criminalize protest in America. And again, I

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Speaker 1: go back to this idea that you can say I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's a good tactic, or you can say

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Speaker 1: I think it's a great tactic. The debate over whether

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Speaker 1: a kind of protest is effective is a different debate

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Speaker 1: than whether the protests should to be allowed to happen.

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Speaker 1: And we have a situation now where you literally have

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Speaker 1: politicians trying to outlaw forms of protest. And obviously there's

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Speaker 1: the other hypocrisy here. I mean, we're still only a

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Speaker 1: year and a half away from since the January sixth insurrection,

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Speaker 1: the violent takeover of the Capitol, and so the same

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Speaker 1: party in some cases, the same politicians, and Josh Hawley's case,

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Speaker 1: the guy who raised his fist a kind of egged

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Speaker 1: on that insurrection and that riot, the same politicians are

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Speaker 1: now trying to outlaw a kind of protest. And I

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Speaker 1: think what's clear is that they're trying to outlaw kind

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Speaker 1: of protest that they don't agree with. In other words,

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Speaker 1: they don't agree with the message, and so they want

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Speaker 1: freedom of speech for their message and not freedom of

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Speaker 1: speech for other messages. And that's not the way freedom

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Speaker 1: of speech is supposed to work. And I just want

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Speaker 1: to add one more thing here. The first Amendment of

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Speaker 1: the Constitution, not like the twentieth Amendment or the Right,

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Speaker 1: the very first Amendment of the US Constitution, enshrines a

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Speaker 1: right to peaceably assemble, and that's what's really at stake here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think we've also already seen in DeSantis's case specifically,

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Speaker 1: how these statues are used very selectively. So he also

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Speaker 1: passed a law that I think banned protest on any

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Speaker 1: roadway in Florida, and that was in response to the

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter protests lo and Behold, when it was

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Speaker 1: protesters against the Cuban government who were blocking a major roadway. Suddenly,

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Speaker 1: for some reason, the law was not did not apply.

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Speaker 1: That is not free speech. That is free speech for me,

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Speaker 1: but not for thee And that's really the issue here. Look,

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Speaker 1: free speech is not an easy thing to protect because

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Speaker 1: it means protecting speech that you don't like. It means

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Speaker 1: protecting speech that you don't agree with. The Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: has issued rulings in the past of protecting a freedom

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Speaker 1: of speech that even uses violent rhetoric. Now I'm not

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Speaker 1: a fan of that. I don't think that's good for

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Speaker 1: the discourse. I don't think that's good for the culture.

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Speaker 1: But the point is that once you start encroaching in

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Speaker 1: a real way on free speech, free political speech, okay,

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Speaker 1: non threatening speech in the sense of non imminent incitement

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Speaker 1: of violence. And that's what we're talking about when it

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Speaker 1: comes to pro choice protesters. Okay, when you start encroaching

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Speaker 1: on that, you start cutting away at again the First Amendment.

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Speaker 1: This is foundational, And what I worry about is that

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Speaker 1: we are living in a time where we are losing

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Speaker 1: touch with things that are difficult to protect, ideals that

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Speaker 1: are difficult to protect. Freedom of speech. I mean, here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. When I see the Washington Post or media

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Speaker 1: outlets saying that they want restrictions on different kinds of protest,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the press, the fourth is state operates under

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Speaker 1: the same freedom of speech, And it kind of blows

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Speaker 1: my mind, like, do these folks really understand the laws

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Speaker 1: under which they are protected and how encroaching on those

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Speaker 1: laws threatens the ability of, for instance, even the press

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Speaker 1: to do its job. Yeah. Also obviously the case with

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Speaker 1: the silence on the prosecution of Julie A. Sanje. The

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Speaker 1: last thing, David that I wanted to ask you is,

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Speaker 1: you know, what do you make of the fact that, Okay,

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Speaker 1: Republicans can the religious right have been building and working

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Speaker 1: very studiously on this project for literally almost five decades.

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Speaker 1: They now are on the verge of the cusp of victory.

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Speaker 1: They're about to get the end result of something that

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Speaker 1: they have been engaged in for a very long time,

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Speaker 1: and they don't want to talk about it. They're upset

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Speaker 1: about how it came out. They want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the league. They don't want to talk about the protests.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to talk about this monumental political victory

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Speaker 1: that they are on the cusp of achieving. What do

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Speaker 1: you make of that, Well, I mean, I think they

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Speaker 1: know they have victory in hand. I mean they know

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Speaker 1: that that draft ruling, if it becomes the law, is

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Speaker 1: the victory they want. They don't have to talk about it,

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Speaker 1: and they know talking about it is probably not great

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Speaker 1: politics for them heading into the midterm elections if you

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Speaker 1: look at polls on the issue. So they already have

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Speaker 1: the victory, and so what they're trying to do tactically,

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Speaker 1: in my view, is focus more on the controversies surrounding

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Speaker 1: the victory and to try to scandalize dissent. They're trying

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Speaker 1: to scandalize the outrage about this and so, and they've

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Speaker 1: got a willing and complicit partner, I think, in corporate media,

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Speaker 1: which I think has focused as much on the protest

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Speaker 1: as much on the leak as on the substance itself.

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Speaker 1: The question is whether the Democratic Party heading into the

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Speaker 1: midterm elections can actually focus the public on the actual

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Speaker 1: issue at hand, which is the ripping away of reproductive

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Speaker 1: rights from one hundred and sixty six million women in

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Speaker 1: the country. David, thank you so much for reporting on

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Speaker 1: this and so many other issues. It's great to see you.

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Speaker 1: It's great to see you. Thanks for having me. The

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Speaker 1: rise of some new candidates in the victory of JD.

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Speaker 1: Evans has a new discussion. Is the right going to

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Speaker 1: change if they take power in the US Senate and

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Speaker 1: in Congress come twenty twenty two. To talk about this

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Speaker 1: is Orn Cassi's the executive director of American Compass. It's

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Speaker 1: good to see Oran. Welcome back to the show. Great

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Speaker 1: to be here. All right, So we've got an interesting

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Speaker 1: new piece here that was written in American Compasses. Put

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Speaker 1: us up there on the screen, taking the right off

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Speaker 1: of autopilot. It's something that your organization has been focused

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Speaker 1: on now for quite some time. So orin how do

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Speaker 1: you kind of assess the chances of taking the right

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Speaker 1: off of autopilot come November victory for the Republicans in

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Speaker 1: the midterms, if that's what happens, well, I think a

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Speaker 1: huge question for the right of center is what's going

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Speaker 1: to happen in our institutions. You know, there are all

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Speaker 1: these huge, very well funded think tanks, publications that drive

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Speaker 1: a lot of the conversation, are listened to by a

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Speaker 1: lot of elected representatives, and they have for forty plus

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Speaker 1: years now been focused exclusively on this sort of Reagan

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Speaker 1: style agenda that's kind of very libertarian on economic issues,

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Speaker 1: and it just doesn't fit twenty twenty two. It might

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Speaker 1: have been great for nineteen eighty two, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: fit twenty twenty two. And the question, in my mind

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Speaker 1: and saying this piece really speaks to, is can these

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Speaker 1: institutions change. Can an organization that's been doing the same

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Speaker 1: thing for so long that takes hundreds of millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars in donations from people well thinking a certain way,

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Speaker 1: that hires hundreds of people who have staked their careers

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Speaker 1: on thinking a certain way, can they actually say we

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Speaker 1: actually have to think about things differently. And I think

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Speaker 1: we're seeing some places where that is starting to happen,

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Speaker 1: you know, Kevin Roberts coming in at the Heritage Foundation

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Speaker 1: is a good example, but at a lot of places

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Speaker 1: where we're not seeing that happen at all. And I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, those institutions are going to become probably irrelevant

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Speaker 1: over time, and we're going to need new ones that

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Speaker 1: carry things forward. Are they going to become irrelevant? Though,

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Speaker 1: because it seems to me like there are two basic

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Speaker 1: problems that, you know, make it structural issues that make

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Speaker 1: it difficult for Republicans to adjust course with regards to

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Speaker 1: economic orthodoxy. In particular. Number one, what you pointed to

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Speaker 1: the source of money backing these think tanks and the

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Speaker 1: institutional right. It's a sort of you know, corporate libertarian

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Speaker 1: ideology that has been a sendent in the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: and frankly the Democratic Party as well for quite a

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Speaker 1: while now. But then you also have this dynamic, and

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Speaker 1: I think this is revealed from the JD Vance successful

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Speaker 1: Senate campaign, which is that the base has been sort of, uh,

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Speaker 1: the base really responds to culture war incitement. So that's

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Speaker 1: that was a lot of Even though JD talked a

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Speaker 1: little bit in a different way on economic issues when

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Speaker 1: our reporter was on the ground asking voters what they

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Speaker 1: cared about, what they were interested in, a lot of

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Speaker 1: what they talked about was these sort of cultural touchstone issues.

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Speaker 1: So if there's money backing the standard issue economic orthodoxy,

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Speaker 1: and then you have a base that's responsive on cultural issues,

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Speaker 1: it seems like there isn't a lot of incentive to

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Speaker 1: change what you're doing in terms of economic orthodoxy. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think those those are definitely key obstacles. The things

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Speaker 1: that that give me hope, you know, are probably two

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Speaker 1: in particular. One is it's absolutely true that some of

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Speaker 1: these more cultural issues that you know, which tend to

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Speaker 1: be really hot button and politically salient, drive a lot

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Speaker 1: of energy in the base of both parties, drive primary voters.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, if we believe in the idea

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Speaker 1: of a realignment, and especially for the right of center,

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Speaker 1: if you know candidates like JD. Vance are actually going

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Speaker 1: to build the kind of popular support that that could

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Speaker 1: ultimately lead to a governing majority, that that realignment to

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Speaker 1: a large extent, comes down to finding working class voters

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Speaker 1: who have have typically been on the left of center,

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Speaker 1: who probably agree with conservatives on some of these culture issues,

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Speaker 1: but feel just completely left out or ignored on the

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Speaker 1: economic side. The question is how do you bring them in?

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Speaker 1: And so that's a place where the economic message is

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Speaker 1: incredibly important. Essentially being able to pass a threshold on

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Speaker 1: the economic issues with voters who probably agree with you

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Speaker 1: on the cultural issues, and so I think that's where

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Speaker 1: you know, if you look at how sort of someone

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Speaker 1: like JD balances his message. Of course, the cultural message

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Speaker 1: is going to be hugely important in any political campaign,

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Speaker 1: but the ultimate coalition, I think is likely to be

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Speaker 1: one that has that economic element as well. And then

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Speaker 1: I think the second piece of it is you see

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Speaker 1: this incredible crossover happening now, but between the cultural and

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Speaker 1: economic when it comes to big business and so called

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Speaker 1: woke capital and the way these corporations are behaving in

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases, and you're seeing right of center

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Speaker 1: elected politicians and voters really turn against corporate interests, and

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Speaker 1: to some extent, I think those interests really sort of

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Speaker 1: align quite strongly with the Democratic Party at this point.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you may have some institutions on the

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Speaker 1: right of center. The American Enterprise Institution is probably the

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Speaker 1: best example that first and foremost are are oriented toward

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Speaker 1: business interests. I mean, it's right there in the title

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Speaker 1: American any right. But I think even like on the

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Speaker 1: Disney example, I also think it's very telling because the

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Speaker 1: objection to Disney isn't the one that the left has

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Speaker 1: had for many years, which is that you know, there

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Speaker 1: are union busters. They pay their employees terribly, they treat

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Speaker 1: their labor like crap, They make their you know, oftentimes

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Speaker 1: their merchandise has been made in like sweatshops. It's not

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Speaker 1: that critique, it's we don't like their stance on a

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Speaker 1: cultural issue. So again, it's not really a corporate critique,

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Speaker 1: it's a cultural critique. Which is why I feel, like

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Speaker 1: why it seems very clear to me that the primary

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Speaker 1: animating force is not a change in economic orthodoxy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Trump talked in a different way on economics, and then

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Speaker 1: his biggest accomplishment was a tax cut for the rich.

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Speaker 1: It's leaning into culture war issues that are easy to

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Speaker 1: prosecute and don't require you to upset your donor base. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think some of these culture issues are very much

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Speaker 1: upsetting the donor base because they do, at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, come to down down to saying, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we're not going to give a free

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Speaker 1: pass to corporations. And this idea that the most important

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Speaker 1: thing you can do for the country is whatever corporations

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Speaker 1: want you to do just just isn't true. And and

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Speaker 1: so I think you're absolutely right that that some of

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Speaker 1: these cultural issues are are sort of what's calling attention

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Speaker 1: to some of these challenges and energizing a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, the conclusion they're

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Speaker 1: coming away with is that the old idea, you know

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Speaker 1: that they often misquoted, what's what's good for general America's

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Speaker 1: is good for America and vice versa. It's it's just

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Speaker 1: not true on a whole lot of fronts. It's not

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Speaker 1: true on the cultural front. And you know, another key

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Speaker 1: point of crossover is China, where you have both a

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Speaker 1: sort of willingness to cowtow politically to China, but but

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Speaker 1: then also obviously an enthusiasm for for offshoring to China,

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Speaker 1: both both of which are bad for Americans. And so

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Speaker 1: I think all of this sort of comes to ahead

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Speaker 1: in the same way, which is to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: groups on the right of center that are willing to

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Speaker 1: rethink orthodoxies and say, well, what does it actually mean

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Speaker 1: to be conservative in twenty twenty two, and what's a

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Speaker 1: policy agenda that's going to address America's problems. I think

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Speaker 1: those groups and politicians are going to be very successful.

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Speaker 1: I think those that have their Ronald Reagan playbook from

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, and they're just sort of flipping through

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Speaker 1: it to find the right tax cut and the right

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Speaker 1: op ed that explains how wonderful business is. I think

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Speaker 1: those groups are becoming irrelevant on the right of center.

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Speaker 1: I hope you're right, Orrian, You're going to be one

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Speaker 1: of those voices regardless, and we'll continue to highlight yours

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Speaker 1: here on the show. Appreciate you joining us. Good see arn,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, good to see you too. So White House

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Speaker 1: Pross Secretary Jensaki has officially stepped down from her post

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Speaker 1: cringee on Pierre is now moved into that slot, but

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Speaker 1: on her last day, Jensaki had some comments about what

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Speaker 1: her experience in the hot house of DC has been. Like,

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Speaker 1: let's say, to listen, people always ask me, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you guys get asked this too, about whether Washington

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Speaker 1: is rotten, you know, whether everybody is corrupt here, and

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Speaker 1: you know, nothing good happens and we all just argue

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Speaker 1: with each other. And I, having done this job, believe

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Speaker 1: the absolute opposite is true because I have worked with

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Speaker 1: and engaged with all of these incredible people across the

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Speaker 1: administration and this amazing team many of whom are here

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Speaker 1: that I get to work with every day. And I said,

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Speaker 1: as I said about Koream last week, these people are

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Speaker 1: already the stars of the team. But they're going to

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Speaker 1: be shining stars in the future, and I'll miss them

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Speaker 1: a lot. Okay, So she does not believe Washington is crossier, No,

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Speaker 1: think about it. She's made me believe. The opposite is.

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Speaker 1: This is also someone who says that the West Wing

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Speaker 1: is what inspired her to get back into politics. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: I generally like to take people at their word. I

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Speaker 1: guess that's been your experience as an outside observer. I

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Speaker 1: would say it's been the opposite of my experience in

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Speaker 1: order to see that that's the case. Also from my

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Speaker 1: many friends who remain in the press corps, they are

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Speaker 1: not exactly singing the West Wing too. But I also

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Speaker 1: think you so, I actually think remember when we interviewed

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Speaker 1: John Stewart and he was like, I told my staff,

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Speaker 1: you cannot have friends, because when you meet a person

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Speaker 1: on an individual basis, they can be this kind of

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Speaker 1: happened to Bernie and Joe Biden. They can be nice people,

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Speaker 1: they can be personally kind to you, they can show

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Speaker 1: generosity to you and so I can understand why when

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Speaker 1: you're in that situation and you're surrounded by people who

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Speaker 1: have been personally nice to you, it's hard to separate

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Speaker 1: that like human to human relationship from the overall things

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Speaker 1: that they're doing and also like the system that they're

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Speaker 1: operating within. And so yeah, it's not about individually like

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Speaker 1: did Joe Biden call you on your birthday? It's who

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Speaker 1: do you take money from, where's this ideology come from,

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Speaker 1: what's it doing to people, what's the impact on the country.

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Speaker 1: So that's why, you know, it's some of the most

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Speaker 1: challenging situations are where you know someone personally and you

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Speaker 1: see them doing something that is wrong or bad or corrupt.

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Speaker 1: It can be uncomfortable to reckon with that. So when

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Speaker 1: I had a great reply, they go, well, why are

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Speaker 1: you taking a job at MSNBC If you think that's true,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if it really is the opposite of corrupt

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Speaker 1: and you have great work to do, when you're having

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Speaker 1: the time of your life and you're changing the whole country,

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Speaker 1: then why are you going to go work cable news?

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Speaker 1: Let's be honest, Because you're gonna make a lot more money,

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Speaker 1: and because lying for a living and I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: that they don't all do this. Lying for a living

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Speaker 1: and being a propagandist for a failing administration is not

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Speaker 1: a fun job. That's that's the honest bit. So in

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Speaker 1: a way, her, you know, spinning all this narrative is

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Speaker 1: the opposite of really what's happening in her actual life.

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Speaker 1: If it really was the most fulfilling job of all time,

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Speaker 1: she would stay. I mean, I've gone back and I've

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Speaker 1: read the people at the time when government is really worrying,

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Speaker 1: they you have to you have to kick them kicking

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Speaker 1: and screaming out of government like the New Deal guys

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Speaker 1: they stayed in for years eight nine years. Same you

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Speaker 1: know under LBJ or JFK. I mean, those people would

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Speaker 1: have crawled over glassing, never would have left the president

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Speaker 1: in the lurch if they really felt like they were

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Speaker 1: accomplishing something. But here and in past administrations, the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration being one the Bush administration high turnover amongst prex secretaries.

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Speaker 1: When stuff gets tough, people really always leave the job

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Speaker 1: because they know how full of it that they really are.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people who are staffers in the White House.

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Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, it is a brutal job,

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Speaker 1: just in terms of the hours and what it does

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Speaker 1: to your personal life. So I can certainly understand why

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Speaker 1: as a mother she wouldn't want to stay there forever.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of people take these jobs not because

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Speaker 1: of what they want to do or a vision they

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Speaker 1: particularly believe in, but because they want the resume item

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Speaker 1: that you know, parlays into a cable news hosting gig

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Speaker 1: gig or you know, or a corporate gig like Jay Carney,

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of times it's used more as

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Speaker 1: a launching pad than actually the place where you're going

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Speaker 1: to stay and try to try to impact the country

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Speaker 1: in a positive way or further a vision that you

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Speaker 1: ultimately believe. I think that would be different from the

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Speaker 1: New Deal era, when you had a lot of true

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Speaker 1: believers who really thought, like, you know, this is the

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Speaker 1: right or the New Frontiers were the greats. Actually Reagan

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Speaker 1: is another example. Man Reagan. Their staff people stayed along

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Speaker 1: for a long time. So if you study, like when

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Speaker 1: people really feel like they're really doing good work and

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Speaker 1: all that, they stay, they don't act like this. So

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Speaker 1: there you go. So on top of Megan Markle getting

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Speaker 1: her show canceled, another one has bitten the dust. It's

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Speaker 1: been up there, that's right. The Obamas as well. What

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Speaker 1: do we got here? Hulu is passing on a Hillary

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Speaker 1: Clinton series. Rodham, Clara Danes, and Dakota Fanning were to star,

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Speaker 1: as twentieth Century TV is shopping the project around. All

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Speaker 1: of this is based upon the twenty twenty New York

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Speaker 1: Times bestseller, which imagine an alternative universe in which Hillary

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Speaker 1: Rodham met and dated Bill Clinton but never married him. Instead,

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Speaker 1: in the Life Clinton Really Led, she goes on to

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Speaker 1: thrive as a Northwestern University professor and launches an eventual

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Speaker 1: presidential run. Real world events such as rape accusations against

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Speaker 1: Bill Clinton and Donald Trump play out in the novel,

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Speaker 1: but in vastly altered ways. Well, I'm just gonna go

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Speaker 1: out on a limb and say that she would not

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Speaker 1: even be in politics without Bill Clinton. That's not a

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Speaker 1: sexist thing to say. I just think that she's a

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Speaker 1: terrible politician. So sorry about that. Hillary, Also, I do

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Speaker 1: gotta say. I mean, in terms of all these series,

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Speaker 1: the one benefit in the downturn and the stock price

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of the chaff is just getting

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Speaker 1: completely cut out. The Obama's not getting their Spotify deal

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Speaker 1: re upped. The Megan Markle animated racial series getting canceled

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Speaker 1: by Netflix. Tear shed in that moment, Hillary Rodham not

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Speaker 1: getting picked up, because here's the thing, all this content,

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Speaker 1: it sucks. That's the part that we also know it's

430
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: not actually good, and a lot of it was just

431
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: vanity stuff in order to buy off politicians. Like the

432
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 1: buddhaj Edge documentary on Amazon. I'm sure it did real

433
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: big numbers over there. It's obvious why it's happening. He

434
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: had a podcast to remember that, Oh yeah he had.

435
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: I don't dropped out. Well, now he's a treasuries not

436
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: treasure trans transportation far less important. I want to know

437
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: who read this book? Yeah, I want to know too. Actually, ill, well,

438
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: unfortunately I know people who read the book. Really, I

439
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: was a big bestseller. The PMC ladies. They love the

440
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: show all I mean, sorry, they love this book. I

441
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: was looking though at the there was a new Democratic

442
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: primary poll that came out that included her in the mix,

443
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: and she wasn't faring too well. It was interesting. It

444
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: was like Biden was number one. Here we go, Biden

445
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: thirty three, Bernie still number two, seventeen Kamala below, Bernie

446
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: at twelve, Warren at nine, Buddha Juedge at eight, AOC

447
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: at six, and Clinton at six. So just another indication

448
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: that America is not ready for Hillary. Oh well, and

449
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: we never were unfortunately, so even that book, it's all cope, folks.

450
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: Let's be honest. It's good that we never have to

451
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: see this on Hulu. Very excited to introduce our next guest.

452
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: It's John Burnt Thaal. He's the host of a new podcast.

453
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny John. I sometimes I find out

454
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: that celebrities watch the show. Usually I'm like, yeah, whatever,

455
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: but with you, I was like, holy shit, I'm like,

456
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 1: that's John Burnhal. Anyway, I know you've got a new

457
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: podcast out, The Real Ones. I actually took a listen

458
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: to your episode on Russia, which is part of the

459
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: reason I actually wanted to talk to you. You actually

460
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: have some interesting things to say, So welcome to the

461
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: show and tell us a little bit about your podcast.

462
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, man, I am I'm I'm an enormous fan.

463
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 1: Uh and I'm so deeply appreciative of of what you

464
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: guys are doing and and and I think you know

465
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,959
Speaker 1: and at an age right now where it's just so

466
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: hard to get sort of unfiltered and and and real

467
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: and honest. Uh and and you know, just sort of

468
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: fair information delivered by folks that that you know, really,

469
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: I just I really feel like I trust you guys,

470
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: and and I love getting my news from you guys.

471
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: I love your your opinions and the discourse that you

472
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: have on the show. So I'm really grateful. Look, I

473
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: think for for my show. Uh Similarly, look, I have

474
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: no place I have no place sort of in you know,

475
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: exploring the key issues of the day. I wear makeup

476
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: and say lines for a living. And I think the

477
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: last thing deep sort of what you alluded to is

478
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: another celebrity kind of spouting off and pontificating on the

479
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: major issues of the day. You know, our job is

480
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: really to tell stories. That being said, I've been so

481
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: enormously frustrated with just the discourse in this country right now,

482
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: and and you know, not just in the media, but

483
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: but kind of all over And I think unfortunately, so

484
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: much of you know, what we're listening, what we're watching

485
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: is sort of this agenda based you know, sort of

486
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: flag waving, this this bomb bass and this rhetoric and

487
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: people just sort of trying to get people to join

488
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: their side. And you know, for me, I I can't

489
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: really imagine anything less American. I I think that you know,

490
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: to be patriotic and to be strong is really about compromise.

491
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: It's really about being secure enough in your positions to

492
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: open up yourself to people that think differently than you,

493
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: people that were raised differently than you, people have different

494
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: backgrounds from you, political backgrounds, racial background, sexual orientations. It's

495
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: what makes you know this country really wonderful. And look,

496
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: I've been I've been enormously blessed in my life where

497
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: I grew up and how I grew up, and with

498
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: what I do for a living, that I've gotten to

499
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: learn from and and and and meet all these wonderful

500
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: folks that I've become enormously close with. So I've the

501
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: folks that I have on my show are special forces soldiers,

502
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: their police officers, their surgeons, their teachers, their coaches, the firefighters,

503
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: their nurses. I really believe that when you focus on

504
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: folks that really, you know, walk the walk, don't just

505
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: talk about it, there's a certain kind of empathy there,

506
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: there's a certain understanding. I think they're too busy, and

507
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: and and and I've had too much time, you know,

508
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: really with boots on the grounds and these issues to

509
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: join us side. And they understand that, you know, we're

510
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: all human beings and we all want what's best for

511
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: our kids, and we all want our families to prosper

512
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: and and and and and to make this world as

513
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: good as possible. And I'm enormously enormously grateful for the

514
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: folks that come on my show, and I believe in them.

515
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: And as much as I sort of want less of

516
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: me out there, not not not more, this show really

517
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with me. It's about the great

518
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: folks that I bring on. Well, it actually really comes

519
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: through in your interviews. Like I said, I mean, I

520
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: think personally, I think most celebrity podcasts are terrible. But

521
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: I was listening to this, I'm like, this guy actually

522
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: ask good questions, he's letting his guests speak, he's making

523
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: sure he's elevating somebody legitimately interesting, and I guess it's

524
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's fit. I mean, like I'm saying, to

525
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: be honest, I've always found like a deep fascination with

526
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: some of the characters. You have a real rawness in

527
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: some of the people that you play. We were speaking

528
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: before war. We went on the air about We Own

529
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: the City, which is David Simon's I would, I guess

530
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: kind of a sequel ish to The Wire in which

531
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: you play a Baltimore police officer. I'm not going to

532
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: give away too much, but I mean, can you maybe

533
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, some of the themes that we

534
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: have here on our show, on your show in playing

535
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: multifaceted characters which are both villainous, but you're also doing

536
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: something in a social commentary which is very deep and

537
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: outside of the way that the most of the media

538
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: and popular culture likes to talk about these things. Yeah. Look,

539
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think I think Look, who

540
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: better to kind of explore these these these issues that

541
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: have really gripped the soul of the country right now,

542
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: these issues of recent race and policing. You better to

543
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: do that than than than David Simon and George Pelcanos.

544
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: They come to the work with the journalistic integrity, but

545
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: trying to tell the truth. There's no agenda, there's no

546
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: flag waving, and I knew with the skies there would

547
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: be a certain level of access in the city of Baltimore.

548
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: Because of what they've done before. It's hard. You know.

549
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: The way that I really like to work again is

550
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: to to to kind of dive in and to get

551
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: to know the real folks. That's sort of my sword

552
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: to try to tell the story as authentically and truthfully

553
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: as I can. And I knew with David Simon because of,

554
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, their street cred with

555
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: the wire. When you're going into the Baltimore Police Department

556
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: and you're saying, hey, we're trying to tell a story

557
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: about sort of one of the most corrupt and vile

558
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: episodes of your department, you know, it's gonna be hard

559
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: to get them to kind of open up their hearts

560
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: and minds and open up the doors to you. You know,

561
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: For that show, I did three months of ride alongs

562
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: every day in every district of the city. I went

563
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: on drug raids with with the Baltimore Swat Team, And

564
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to those guys and and and what

565
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: I found by this approach of kind of digging into

566
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: the wound of raising hen to try to tell the

567
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: story authentically and without an agenda, I found that they

568
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: really appreciated it. And look, I mean I think that

569
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: there's no words for you know, how how vile and

570
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: reprehensible and how awful uh, you know, police brutality and

571
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: police corruption and the effect that that has on victims,

572
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: whether it's Fourth Amendment UH violation, victims, folks that have

573
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: been wrongfully imprisoned, folks that have been beaten, folks that

574
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: have been killed. There's no words for that. There's also

575
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: another subset of victims that I never knew about, and

576
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 1: and and and I think it's very little focused. And

577
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: that's the good uh and righteous and courageous people that

578
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: take the you know, peacemaker's code, the peacemaker's oath, and

579
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: that go and police our cities. Good cops suffer at

580
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 1: the hands of bad cops. And there's no other profession.

581
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: I think that you know, the the acts of the

582
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: the bile acts of you know, the worst of them

583
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: really just you know, changes both the career paths and

584
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: just the livelihoods and the way in which people police.

585
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: And you know, it's part of the thing that I'm

586
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: trying to do on my podcast as well, is I

587
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: think the only answer there is to weed out and

588
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: single out the ones that you know are there for

589
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: the wrong reasons, and they're there for corruption and have horrible,

590
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: horrible issues that manifest itself in violence on the street.

591
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: But let's also celebrate the great police. And I think

592
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: the answers to policing will lie in the people that

593
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: have community minded great police that have been there forever.

594
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm really grateful that I got sort

595
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: of a front road ticket to that. I got to

596
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: make some really good friends along the way. That's great, man.

597
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it really comes through in your acting and

598
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: your show, and I really think you're really having a

599
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: renaissance these days. And I can attest to the audience

600
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: he is one of the real ones. He's one of

601
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: the good ones, not one of the ones we make

602
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: fun of often on the show. So John, thank you

603
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: very much for joining us. I really appreciated both your

604
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: podcasts and talking to you, getting till you get to

605
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: know you a little bit, and I look forward to

606
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: a lot more of your work. So thank you me too.

607
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: Make you've up the good work. I really appreciate you guys.

608
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely take care. We spoke about that landmark UFO hearing

609
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: and joining us. Now UFO Expert Journalist in his own

610
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: right is Jeremy Corbel. He's also a great documentarian and

611
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: a friend. Jeremy, welcome back to the show. It's good

612
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: to see you, my friend, really good to see you. Saga. Okay, Jeremy,

613
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: So you have been through the new footage from the

614
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: UFO hearing. Now let's dissect everything that we have first

615
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: described to us exactly what we learned that is new

616
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: from the hearing so far right, Okay, So everybody needs

617
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: to understand that this is just the beginning. This is

618
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: a benchmark. This is a moment in history that we

619
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: haven't had in over fifty years. They brought two people

620
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: forward top brass of our military, and to be honest

621
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: with you, you know they've jumped into this recently too.

622
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: Now they are in a position to know. But remember

623
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: the UFO programs are often protected by special Access of

624
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: Program protection. This is why Senator read was trying to

625
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: get SAP status for the true UFO program that was

626
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: called AWSAP Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Applications Program. So they

627
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: don't know everything, but they're going to go into a

628
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: closed congressional briefing. I do you know where they can

629
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: talk about class that information. I do know though, for sure,

630
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: that this is just the start. There are other people

631
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: that are going to be testified on record. So what

632
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: we saw was we saw some new footage of a

633
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: UFO that shoots by a fighter plane. But the thing

634
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: is is one piece of evidence is nothing. They're just

635
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: bringing the public up to date with what's going on.

636
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: They had problems when they were trying to slow down

637
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: and like click it to show to people is really funny.

638
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 1: They need a tech person. But ultimately they asked good questions.

639
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 1: They said, have we ever fired on a UFO? Do

640
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: we have exploitation programs? Using a different word, And of

641
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: course look there were lies, obfuscation, you know, and some

642
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: things they just don't know, but what that's what we expected.

643
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: But the big thing here, and Representative Carson talked about

644
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: this was that, you know, and he pushed the witnesses.

645
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: The idea is to reduce stigma, so people like me

646
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: are unnecessary. The only reason they mentioned me in the

647
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: hearing is because I'm getting footage from our military that

648
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: should have gone up the chain of command without people

649
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: having to leak it to me. So I hope they

650
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: fixed this broken chain so that we can really get

651
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: to the bottom of this UFO mystery. I think that's

652
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: the most important takeaway from me as well, which is

653
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: just really making the normalization in the military culture in

654
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: order to for it to bubble up so that we

655
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: don't have to keep seeing leaked audio. I talked to

656
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: a guy. Here's what he said. You know, oh, but

657
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, whispers and all of this. I hear probably

658
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: a fraction of it, but still hear some of it

659
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: from people as well. Jeremy talk to us about those

660
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: lies in obfuscations, because this is important in terms of

661
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 1: claims around past videos. What were some of the lies

662
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: in the obfuscations that they told us? Right, So, one

663
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: of the things is they really focused on what looks

664
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: like the green triangular by angle of observation footage that

665
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: was shot off the coast of twenty nineteen off the

666
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: USS Russell and I obtained and released that they were

667
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: playing out like the whole time. And it was really

668
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: interesting because this was contained within their own classified documents

669
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: that I inside of it was able to get out

670
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: as unclassified, and then the videos were I obtained and

671
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: released the videos. Now they were talking about how it

672
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: looks like a triangle and that's because of the camera

673
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 1: and how it put together. They were inches away from

674
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: saying the lie that it was like just an effect

675
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: of optics. But was what was really interesting because he

676
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: really danced around the world the words about it was

677
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 1: that he was saying that it looks and appears triangular.

678
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: But what he didn't say is that in all the

679
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: classified briefings, because there are other optics systems rather than

680
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: just being shot through the night vision, these were non eerodynamic.

681
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: They were indeed described in all caused by briefings as

682
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: pyramid in shape. So they were just dancing around a

683
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: few issues. But that's okay, We're going to crack it

684
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,959
Speaker 1: open and make sure I have more to release. That's great,

685
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: and you always hold their feet to the fire. Any

686
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: other information Just for the layman person out there, they're interested,

687
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: you know, you and I are really excited and all this.

688
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: But somebody's out there, what are their main takeaways from

689
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: this hearing other than the fact that there will be

690
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: more transparency like with this video or any confirmations around

691
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: the report that maybe they could take away from this. Well, yeah,

692
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing you can take away from

693
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: this is that Congress is actually doing its job and

694
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: it is holding the intelligence communities and the individuals in

695
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: position to either be aware or they should be aware.

696
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean, these are the people supposed to be studying this.

697
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: Of what programs do we have to exploit these technologies

698
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: to study it? To manage what they called signal management?

699
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: What is our defense capability when something is in our

700
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: restricted airsplace? The takeaway is that now the public's voice

701
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: has been heard and they are having their feet held

702
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: to the fire. And this is a great first step.

703
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: It is a first step, but it is a great

704
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: first step. So what people can expect now is just

705
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: a resounding response of enthusiasm from the public. And this

706
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: is what's going to push this topic forward. There is

707
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: so much to learn about the UFO phenomenon, the mystery

708
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: of UFOs. We know maybe one percent of what UFOs

709
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: represent to humanity, but we already got more information today

710
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: than we had yesterday, and every day human knowledge is

711
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: increasing on this issue. In UFOs have been with us

712
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: since the beginning of recorded human history that we are

713
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: aware of. So it's an exciting time. Man. You know

714
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 1: I love this topic and you know I love it too. Man,

715
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: You're the one who got me into it, So I

716
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: really appreciate you joining us. We're going to keep listening

717
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: to you. We'll stay in contact in terms of some

718
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: of the new information. And I do want to thank

719
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: you on behalf of everybody in the community, because I

720
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: don't think that any of this would be happening without

721
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: your work. Thank you much for joining us. Their appreciate

722
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: it very much. I want to thank you, and I

723
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: want to thank UFO, Twitter and everybody. They're really pushed

724
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: for this, so I appreciate it, brother, and I'll talk

725
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: to them absolutely. Hey, guys, Kyle Kolinski is letting us

726
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: post some of the clips from his channel that we

727
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: think you guys will really love in the Breaking Points

728
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: community on our channel. Yep, let's get to it all right.

729
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 1: So we got this article in the New York Post

730
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: Goldman Sacks backed firms by entire Florida community for forty

731
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: five million dollars. So this is where we're at. You know,

732
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: Wall Street firms are just like, I should buy that town,

733
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: and then they do. So they say there's no end

734
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: in sight for Wall Street's sun Belt Sojourn. Sojourn, a

735
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: pair of Goldman Sacks backed ventures gobbled up an entire

736
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: rental home community in Florida. Last month for a cool

737
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: forty five million fund Rise Interval Fund and Growth e

738
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: Eerate seven picked up eighty seven single family properties in

739
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: Bereverd County as part of an ongoing southern spending spree.

740
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 1: Fund Rise previously snatched up a one hundred and twenty

741
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: unit development in Pensacola and has been pouring money into

742
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: other rental developments in states like South Carolina and Mississippi.

743
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: With rents continuing to soar and demographic shifts ongoing, real

744
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: estate experts said Wall Street's Southern appetite will only intensify.

745
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: Ken Johnson, professor of real estate at Florida Atlantic University,

746
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: said firms are following population trends and investing in previously

747
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: disregarded regions of the country. You are seeing more and

748
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: more of this, Johnson told The Post. The attraction of

749
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: Florida is the same as places like Texas and Tennessee

750
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: and North Carolina. These are places people are moving to

751
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: and where we can expect to see future increases in population. Florida,

752
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: he said, has undergone fundamental shift in recent years, morphing

753
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: from a second home and a hospitality centered economy to

754
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: a year round place of business. There's reorganization of Florida's

755
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 1: economy taking place, he said. Some critics have correlated Wall

756
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: Street's embrace of single family and rental homes with unprecedented

757
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: price increases over the past several years. Anecdotes about anecdotes

758
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: abound about aspiring homeowners home buyers having their bids avalanched

759
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: by corporate competitors with deep pockets. That's exactly what's happening

760
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 1: around the country. Florida has seen rent spike by more

761
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: than thirty percent overall, while other Sun Belt states have

762
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: seen similar hikes. But Johnson argued that corporate purchases remain

763
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: a drop in the bucket of overall home transactions throughout

764
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: the country. He asserted that even large scale corporate purchases

765
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: in concentrated areas do not confer enough market power to

766
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: dictate rental prices. I don't buy that for a second.

767
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: Other analysts contend that increasing mortgage rates will now spur

768
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: even higher rents, with would be home buyers opting for

769
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: the sidelines. Yeah, see this is this has been a

770
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: problem recently. Anecdotes abound about aspiring home buyers having their

771
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: bids avalanched by corporate competitors with deep pockets. We've talked

772
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: about this in regards to Blackrock too. Blackrock is going

773
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: around the country and buying up, you know, entire blocks

774
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: or entire towns, and so what happens is these corporations

775
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: swoop in, they buy a house or houses or an

776
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: entire development, and then oftentimes what they do is they'll

777
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: jack up the rent and rent it back to people.

778
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: And I mean this, it's ugly. It's what started after

779
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: the two thousand and eight subprime mortgage crisis in Great Recession,

780
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: So in two thousand and eight or leading up to

781
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, in the crash, what happened was

782
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: you had basically a totally unregulated market where instead of

783
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: having a mortgage that was reliable and steady, three year

784
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 1: fixed strate or whatever they call it, what they would

785
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: do is have these ballooning rate mortgages. So somebody who

786
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: doesn't make enough money to buy, you know, a big house,

787
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: would go and buy a big house, and it would

788
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 1: be like no money down at first, you pay three percent,

789
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: but then eventually the interest rate would balloon and so

790
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: as soon as you know, the payments would get up

791
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: to eight percent, twelve percent, sixteen percent, they would default

792
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: on it and they wouldn't be able the house would

793
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: be foreclosed on, and so we basically had a total

794
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: house of cards. We had. At the same time that

795
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: that was going on, you had these bundles of these

796
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: mortgages that would be sold off from company to company,

797
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: and they were basically playing hot potato with toxic assets,

798
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: just waiting for the bubble to burst. And that's ultimately

799
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 1: what happened. And so we had the subprime mortgage crisis,

800
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: the Great Recession. We had so many people, millions of

801
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: people get foreclosed on and lose their homes. And what

802
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: needed to happen was to reintroduce regulation, make it so

803
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: that ballooning rate mortgages are illegal. You needed to bring

804
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: back class steagal so that you know, you don't have

805
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: you have a separation between commercial banking and investment banking.

806
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: So in other words, when you go to your local

807
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: bank and put your money in there, they're not doing

808
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: casino capitalist bets with that, which you're gonna go belly

809
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: up eventually. And in the wake of that, so the

810
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: new trick that happened in the wake of that is

811
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: Wall Street said, all right, well, the problem was we

812
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: were selling these houses to people who should really be

813
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: buying the houses, and we were really scamming them because

814
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: we would just turn a profit and sell the bad

815
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: mortgage to somebody else really quickly and run out the

816
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: back door with all the money. Instead of doing that,

817
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: why don't we just buy the houses directly, push out

818
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: people who maybe genuinely need a house and can buy

819
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: a house, but we'll pay above you know, the market rate,

820
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: and we'll get the house at Goldman Sacks or Black

821
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: Rock or whatever. And then so we deny them housing

822
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: and then we can rent the same house back to

823
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: them and jack up the rent. The economy is a

824
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 1: total house of cars. Man, the total house of cars.

825
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: And this is why you know, FTR famously railed against

826
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: the money changers, Like, what is going on with these

827
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: giant financial corporations other than they're just money changers. What

828
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: value are they providing the economy. They're not providing value.

829
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: They're pushing numbers around on a screen, and they're you know,

830
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: denying people a chance at a home and pushing them

831
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: out of the market and then jacking up their rents.

832
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: So I mean, it's just it's a joke. It's a joke.

833
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't know why this is allowed. It shouldn't be allowed.

834
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: It should be regulated out of existence. But of course

835
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: there's no accountability for Wall Street. There never has been,

836
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: There never has been. How many Wall Street bankers who

837
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: committed fraud as part of their business model went to

838
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: prison after two thousand and eight. I'll leave that one

839
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: up to you guys to put in the comments section.

840
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: So they're back on their bullshit, man, They're back on

841
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: their bullshit. And this is a symptom of late stage

842
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: capitalism and a decaying society. Hey, guys, our friend Marsha Kossof,

843
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: he's going to be conducting interviews with experts and newsmakers

844
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: for us here on the Breaking Points channel. We're really excited. Yep.

845
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: Here it is, hey, Breaking Points. This is Marshall. I

846
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: am joined by Charlotte Alter. She is a senior correspondent

847
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: at Time. And we're talking about John Fetterman, the Democrats

848
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: nominee for Senate in Pennsylvania. He's a really interesting character

849
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: who could say a bunch of things about democratic strategy.

850
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: Moving forward. We're also going to hit a bit about

851
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: millennials and gen z's and politics. Lots of great things here. So, Charlotte,

852
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: you've had some great pieces and Twitter threads on this,

853
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: So let's start by introducing John Fetterman. Who is he

854
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: and why does he seem to mean something bigger than

855
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: just a typical Senate seat run. Thanks Marshall. Yeah, I mean,

856
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: John Fetterman is somebody who has been really present in

857
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania politics for a while now, but I think a

858
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: national audience just learned about him on Tuesday when he

859
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: won the Democratic nomination for Senate. He is the lieutenant

860
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: governor of Pennsylvania. Before that, he was the mayor of Braddock, Pennsylvania,

861
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: which is a sort of a steel a former steel

862
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: town that's really been down in the dumps since steel workers,

863
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: since the steel industry and steel jobs left the area.

864
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: And he is somebody who has kind of He's a

865
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: real classic, like Pennsylvania guy. Nobody is ever gonna out

866
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania John Fetterman. He's six foot nine. He doesn't really

867
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: like wearing a suit. He normally wears a sweatshirt and

868
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: shorts everywhere he goes, which political observers like me are

869
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: like mind blown, Oh my god, But voters are really

870
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: voters seem to love it. I went to one of

871
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: his events. I followed him around for a couple of

872
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: days a little bit before the primary, and I went

873
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: to one of his events at a steel workers union

874
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: and I counted there were maybe like thirty people in

875
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: the room, and I counted five guys there were who

876
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: had both his exact same outfit and his exact same haircut.

877
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: So it's like he's clearly resonating with people. And you

878
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: could tell because he won the primary by thirty points

879
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: against Connor Lamb, who was the sort of the who's

880
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: a Congress of Pennsylvania congressman who was really endorsed by

881
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: like the most establishment Democrats, Joe Biden. You know, he

882
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: he'd always had a sort of like Bo Biden vibe,

883
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: and Connor Lamb really was kind of seen by a

884
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: lot of Washington types as the type of like clean cut,

885
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: young up and comer who could win in Pennsylvania. And

886
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: actually John Fetterman has really carved out a new and

887
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: pretty strong path for Democrats there. You know, it's interesting

888
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: because there's two questions to the Ken he winn in

889
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania thing. There's the Kenny win the Democratic primary or

890
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: Kenny win the general election. So I think if you're

891
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: a Democrat looking at the let's say probable blood bath

892
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: in the fall, if you're a DC type, you'd say, well,

893
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: Connor Lamb is a great fit for that mid term.

894
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: So how are people thinking about now at Fetterman's nominee,

895
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: how he's going to play in the general. So one

896
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: thing that I think people get wrong about John Fetterman

897
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: because there is this line of attack on him. People

898
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: think that John Fetterman is like a Bernie Sanders progressive

899
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: and he's not. He did endorse Bernie Sanders in the

900
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen campaign, but then he went on to campaign

901
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: for Hillary Clinton and he was not affiliated in the

902
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: twenty twenty campaign, but he did campaign a lot for

903
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: Joe Biden in the general. He's a get it done Democrat,

904
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: you know. I asked him a lot of really pointed questions,

905
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: specifically about specifically about Bernie Sanders's sort of like the

906
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: progressive politics that he's often accused of. I said, you know,

907
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: Medicare for all? Yes or no? He's like, you know,

908
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: what is smart about him, I think is that he's

909
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: really working hard to not to not specifically align himself

910
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: with one wing of the party. Mostly because he knows

911
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: that the voters don't really give a shit about that. So,

912
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: for example, when I asked him about Medicare for all,

913
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: if he had been a true Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders

914
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: style progressive, he would have been like, yes, Medicare for all,

915
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: or bust, like we have to have medicare for all,

916
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: healthcare as a human right, all of the all of

917
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: the you know, arguments that you've heard in support of

918
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,439
Speaker 1: this position. Instead, he's like, weed more health care. Any

919
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: bill that comes through the Senate that would expand health

920
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: care access in Pennsylvania, I will vote for If that's

921
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: a Medicare expansion, I'll vote for it. If it's if

922
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: it's Medicare for all, I'll vote for it. If it's

923
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: Medicare for all who want it, I'll vote for it.

924
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: If it's some kind of you know way to expand

925
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 1: Obamacare and it would be good for you know, expanding

926
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: health care access in Pennsylvania, I'll vote for it. So

927
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: that I think people read that as a very kind

928
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: of sane and practical way to look at this issue

929
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: that actually Democrats spent six months arguing about two years ago,

930
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: you know, a green New deal. He's not for it.

931
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: And that's interesting because you know, these people who are

932
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: trying to attack him as if he is some kind

933
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: of like progressive activist. He's actually only on there are

934
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: only a couple issues on which he's pretty closely aligned

935
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: with progressives on policy, and it's often the issues that

936
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania voters are especially enthusiastic about, like a fifteen dollars

937
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: minimum wage, like strong support for unions, like getting rid

938
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: of the getting rid of the filibuster to protect voting rights,

939
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: things like that. Okay, so then I was going to ask,

940
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: what is he actually kind of more progressive on you

941
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: answer that, then give him what you said, though, why

942
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: did he endorse Bernie in twenty sixteen. I think that

943
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: he sensed and he's right that Bernie was the populist candidate,

944
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: and he's a populist guy. So I think the thing,

945
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: you know what, and I've been talking with Fetterman now

946
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: since twenty eighteen, really like I first got to know

947
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: him shortly after Trump was elected, and he was one

948
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: of the first He was one of the only people

949
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: who saw that Trump was gonna win Pennsylvania. I mean,

950
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: the Clinton people were like, how much are we gonna

951
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 1: win by is it gonna be five points or eighteen points?

952
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: And Fetterman was like, no, no, no, this is And

953
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: so I think that he, uh, you know, just to

954
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: be total honesty, I never actually, you know, had a deep,

955
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: long conversation with him about his thought process in twenty

956
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: sixteen when he made that endorsement. But I do know

957
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: that he is He is definitely not a purist in

958
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: the way that some people who have been in the

959
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: Bernie camp since twenty sixteen are kind of purests about

960
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 1: the Vermont senator's policy in general. He's not a policy guy,

961
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: and that is I think one of the reasons that

962
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: he's been so successful in Pennsylvania and why he's really

963
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: on track to win every county in Pennsylvania, because I

964
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 1: think he understands this really key thing, which is that

965
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: when you go into these counties and you start talking

966
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: to people, people don't come up to him and say,

967
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: I only want Medicare for all and I don't want

968
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: any other healthcare option. People don't come up to him

969
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: and say green new deal or bust. People come up

970
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: to him and say, instead, we need more health care,

971
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: we need better paying jobs. And so he understands that

972
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: a lot of these kind of questions of purity on

973
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: policy proposals are kind of Washington invention that ordinary voters,

974
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: particularly in Pennsylvania, don't care that much about. I'm glad

975
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: you did all the like substantive policy parts because I

976
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: do think we need to get to the shorts and

977
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: the sweatshirt, because, as you said in your recent piece

978
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: in Time about him, he hates talking about this, but

979
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: he's not here. Obviously, Swoll get into it for a second.

980
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 1: You have to tweet that I think speaks to this,

981
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: which is you you basically said, you know, I think

982
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: a lot of politicians are to start putting away their

983
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: their suits and ties. So his question really relates to

984
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: authenticity and how politicians think they should perform. Because I

985
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: think this speaks to Federman's skill set. The question that

986
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are thinking of right

987
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: now isn't, like you said, policy planks. It's trustworthiness. It's

988
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: is this a person who's likable like that that you know,

989
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: specific dynamics. So how effective and widespread do you think

990
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: we're going to see the you know what's just transitioned

991
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 1: to sweatpants and shorts take So I think the reason

992
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: that this works for betterman is because this is what

993
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 1: he has, a look that has been his look forever.

994
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: If you look back at pictures of him when he

995
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: was mayor of Braddock, it's the same exact look. I mean,

996
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: he's very distinctive looking. He's extremely tall, he's extremely big,

997
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: he's got a bald head, he's got a beard, and

998
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: he's usually wearing you know, if it's not a sweatshirt,

999
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: it's like a short sleeve button down or a T

1000
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 1: shirt or like it's it's not He's very rarely in

1001
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,720
Speaker 1: a suit, right, So I think if you took somebody

1002
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: who is out there wearing a suit all the time

1003
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: and said, you know, just start showing up in sweatpants,

1004
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: then it would look kind of slobby or like inauthentic

1005
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: or kind of fake. And I think that that's the

1006
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: reason that he has been so successful is that it's

1007
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: not like, oh, everyone can start wearing shorts and then

1008
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: they'll Wednesday wide in Pennsylvania. That's not the takeaway. The

1009
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: takeaway is, you know, if you are somebody who has

1010
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: you know, who was authentically connecting with people in your community,

1011
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: if you keep dressing that way, that authenticity will like

1012
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: you're in some ways. I think a lot of people

1013
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,399
Speaker 1: read his refusal to start wearing a suit regularly as

1014
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: evidence that he is still connected with the people who

1015
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: first elected him. And I think in particular, you know,

1016
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:41,280
Speaker 1: there's I'll always remember, we had lunch in twenty eighteen

1017
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: at Netroots Nation, which is this like very progressive conference

1018
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: of progressive activists, and that was, you know, shortly after

1019
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 1: Trump was elected, just ahead of the twenty eighteen midterms,

1020
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: and at that point the Democratic Party was basically like,

1021
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: we don't need white working class voters. They're two racist,

1022
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: white working class voters voted for Trump. You know, we

1023
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,879
Speaker 1: can get by without them. If we just turbocharge black

1024
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 1: turnout and turbocharge youth turnout and really get all the

1025
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: women in the suburbs, we'll be able to win these elections.

1026
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: And so like, who needs those people? And John Fetterman

1027
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: was like, sure, maybe, but why would you want to

1028
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: find out? You know, and I'll never And he and

1029
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: his point, which I think is a really good one

1030
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: which more Democrats would pay attention to, is he knows

1031
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: that he and the Democrats are never going to win,

1032
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: are never going to win white working class voters in Pennsylvania.

1033
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: They're never going to get sixty percent of white working

1034
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: class voters in Pennsylvania. They're not going to get fifty

1035
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: one percent of white working class voters in Pennsylvania. But

1036
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: if they can get twenty percent or thirty percent instead

1037
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: of ten or fifteen percent, that's the difference between winning

1038
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: and losing in a state like Pennsylvania. So I think

1039
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: in some ways, the fact that he is this person

1040
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: with a level of authenticity that can reach some of

1041
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: the voters that feel like the Democratic Party isn't even

1042
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: trying to talk to them, but his strategy and his

1043
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: hope is that that is going to help lift him

1044
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: over the top statewide in November. I think the last

1045
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: question speaks to your broader work totally unrelated to Fetterman,

1046
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: especially because of age. You know, you wrote a recent

1047
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: a book a few years back that I've really enjoyed.

1048
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: Sager and I did a Realignment episode about it, and

1049
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: it's called The Ones's Been Waiting for Millennials, Young People

1050
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: and Politics. Yeah, right there in the back weird time

1051
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: for I think the book was very optimistic, and I

1052
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: feel as if every year since the book came out,

1053
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: you've been a little less optimistic, and I think Madison

1054
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: Cawthorne losing, you know, a few nights ago. I think

1055
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: at least Stephonic, who's in no danger of losing, regardless

1056
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: of how you to our bipartisan audience here, regardless of

1057
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: how you think about her her rhetoric, those bits, she's

1058
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: not going to transcend anything. She is a hyper partisan

1059
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: person for good or for ill, and a lot of

1060
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: the promise of I think the interviews you had with

1061
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 1: her back in twenty twenty, or did this idea of

1062
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: I'm this millennial, I have these ambitions, but they're going

1063
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: to be transcendent. So can you just give us, like

1064
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: the epitaphic, the latest the latest Charlotte update on whether

1065
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: we should be optimistic about younger people making a difference

1066
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: in the system. Yeah, I'm really glad that you mentioned

1067
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: elist upon it, because she's somebody you know. Here's the thing.

1068
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: What is always a risk that you run when you

1069
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: write a book about people who are at the beginning

1070
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: of their careers like I did, is that things change.

1071
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: You know. There's a reason that most people write like

1072
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: biographies once the person's kind of like retired. And my

1073
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: book isn't a biography, by the way, it's sort of

1074
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: like a snapshot in time. But what's interesting is when

1075
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: the book first came out, Stephanic was very you know,

1076
00:59:58,360 --> 00:59:59,919
Speaker 1: in all of my interviews with her for the book,

1077
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: she was very light. She was very She was kind

1078
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 1: of held up as an example of a young Republican

1079
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: who was, you know, very conservative but also working to

1080
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: try to find some kind of bipartisan way forward on

1081
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: some of the issues that millennials really care about, like immigration,

1082
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 1: like climate change, and college affordability, and literally, uh, in

1083
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,919
Speaker 1: this span of time in between when the book came

1084
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: out and then when the paperback came out, she morphed

1085
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: herself into an ultramaga type Republican and she really lashed

1086
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: herself to Donald Trump. So there's really a whole chapter

1087
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: in the book about how earlier in her career she

1088
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: was kind of like tiptoeing around Trump and not really

1089
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: embracing him, but also not really denouncing him and just

1090
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 1: sort of trying to like twirl on the typrope a

1091
01:00:55,160 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: little bit. And so the paperback is updated, significantly updated

1092
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: to reflect a lot of the way she's changed. But

1093
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: the thing to remember, I think, you know, particularly about

1094
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: Stephanic is that she's incredibly smart, she's incredibly ambitious, and

1095
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: she's a Republican in New York State. So that means

1096
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: why does that matter? It means that she's not going

1097
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: to be in the Senate from New York and she's

1098
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: not going to be governor of New York because it's

1099
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: just such a deep blue state. I mean, it would

1100
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: be very, very difficult, a big long shot for a

1101
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: Republican to win statewide in a state this blue. So

1102
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: she knows that her her ladder upwards in American politics

1103
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: is through the House of Representatives. And so it seems

1104
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: obvious to me as an observer and somebody who watches

1105
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: her closely and talks to a lot of people who

1106
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: are are and have been close to her, is that,

1107
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, the the calculation she made is that in

1108
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: order to advance within the Republican Party circa twenty one,

1109
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, you have to be a Trump Republican.

1110
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 1: And listen, that bet paid off. She is now the

1111
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: highest ranking Republican woman in America. She is the highest

1112
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: ranking millennial in Congress. She's got a straight you know,

1113
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 1: if she is in congressional leadership, she i think it

1114
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: would be a mistake to bet against her as the

1115
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: first Republican woman Speaker of the House, so I just think, uh,

1116
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: for her, the bet paid off. I also think, you know,

1117
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: you asked about optimism, I am. One of the things

1118
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 1: that I find interesting is that almost all of the

1119
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: people in my book are still active in politics right now.

1120
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: So I had kind of expected that some of them

1121
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 1: would have fallen off or lost reelection. I mean, Max

1122
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: Rose lost reelection, but he's running again, so he might

1123
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: be back in Congress. But I do think that they're

1124
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: I am still optimistic in the long run. I think

1125
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: we've got a pretty thorny couple of years ahead, particularly

1126
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: when it comes to democracy. But if you were too,

1127
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 1: if I was, if somebody were to ask me to

1128
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: bet whether American democracy would still exist in its current

1129
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: form fifteen years from now, I would say yes. It's

1130
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: kind of depressing that that's even a question, though. Yeah.

1131
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: And I think the note just to end on is

1132
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: I think the takeaway from once again Cawthorne and Phonic,

1133
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: regardless what you think about their actual politics, and you know,

1134
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: insert aoc here too, electing young people is not just

1135
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 1: going to in it itself address that problem, because you

1136
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: just see a lot of this rhetoric, especially with the

1137
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 1: people who watch shows like Breaking Points to say, like

1138
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: man like the Prominent or politics is that Nancy Pelosi

1139
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: is old, Truck Schumer is old, Biden's old, Trump's old.

1140
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,959
Speaker 1: There's lots of older people here and so far track

1141
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: record wise electing younger people. If there's a tipping point,

1142
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: it's nowhere near there. So I think it's just important

1143
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: to be clear ride about those structural problems that you

1144
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 1: really get into in the book and comes through in

1145
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: your writing. Yeah. No, I think you're I think you're

1146
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: completely right. And you know, one thing I always feel

1147
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: that I have to clarify is, you know, the argument

1148
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: of my book is not that young people will save us.

1149
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 1: The argument of the book is that this generational shift,

1150
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: which is coming partly because your listeners are right, that

1151
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: our existing government is so so old, that this coming

1152
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 1: generational shift is going to usher in a new type

1153
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: of political paradigm. And I'm not necessarily I'm not necessarily

1154
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: saying that's good. You know more Madison cawthorns in Congress

1155
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 1: is not good. So I think that there are some issue,

1156
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: some areas in which it could be good. I think,

1157
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, for example, climate utter, climate denialism is probably

1158
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 1: going to like be on its way out when this

1159
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: new generation takes over. But I also think that trump

1160
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: Ism has so thoroughly infiltrated our politics, particularly on the right,

1161
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: that I think trump Ism is a stronger force than

1162
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 1: generational change. And both things are happening at the same time,

1163
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: so they kind of like play off each other, and

1164
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: certainly in twenty eighteen they did play off each other

1165
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: a lot, and I I think two and twenty twenty,

1166
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: but I'm still, you know, twenty twenty two and twenty

1167
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: twenty four, I am still you know, it's still unfolding.

1168
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: And I think that people who come through with really

1169
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: strong predictions about what's going to happen. I mean, listen, obviously,

1170
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: Republicans are favored to win to win the midterms this year.

1171
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: I'm not denying that. But I also think there's a

1172
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: lot that we don't know about how these elections are

1173
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,920
Speaker 1: going to play out, particularly you know, Trump's had a

1174
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: kind of spotty track record with his endorsements, which I

1175
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: think is a surprise to a lot of people. So yeah,

1176
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: I just think we have to wait and see very well,

1177
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: said Charlotte. Thank you so much for joining us on

1178
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: Breaking Points. Thank you so much for having me, Marshall,

1179
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: great to talk with you. Welcome back to Breaking Points.

1180
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 1: There is another special edition of Breaking Points the Intercept.

1181
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: We hope to do these weekly. I'm joined here by

1182
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 1: my colleagues now, Sarah Sarota and Ken Klippenstein. Welcome you

1183
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: both here. Thanks for having US's good to be with you.

1184
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 1: They each have important stories this week that I want

1185
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 1: to get into. Let's start with Ken. So Ken. This

1186
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 1: week you scooped that there was a letter that was

1187
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: circulating among House Democrats. Maybe it's become Senate democrats as

1188
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: well at this point, maybe a few Republicans. But the

1189
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: letter was direct directed to what both the State Department

1190
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 1: and the FBI yes, calling on the United States to

1191
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: launch an independent investigation into the killing of Sharin Abu Akley,

1192
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 1: who is the Palestinian American journalist who has killed recently

1193
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 1: in Janeine during an idf raid. So, what's what's the

1194
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: status of that letter and where where does where does

1195
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 1: it fit into kind of the the US Israel Palestinian politics?

1196
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 1: Is this like how new is something like this? Well,

1197
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 1: this is really an extraordinary step and an important one,

1198
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: and that's sorry one by the Biden administration to take,

1199
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 1: because it's basically saying we don't think that the Israeli

1200
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: investigation is going to be in any sense impartial or fair,

1201
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 1: and not just that, it's a politically and legally important

1202
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: step to take because Srien abdu Akar was she was

1203
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 1: a US citizen, and that highlights how out of control

1204
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: the Israeli forces are when they do that. I mean,

1205
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: you know, human being is a human being, it doesn't

1206
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 1: matter you know what nationality it is. But legally, this

1207
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 1: means that the Biden administration has certain responsibilities that it

1208
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 1: has to attend to. So not only are they having

1209
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 1: an FBI investigation and having a State Department review of

1210
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 1: if any laws were broken, when when what witnesses say

1211
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: happened was Israeli forces fired on her and killed her.

1212
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: And so the letter was initially circulated by Andre Carson,

1213
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: who's one of the few Muslim members of Congress and

1214
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 1: representative Korea. What who's on it now? Like has it

1215
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: been snowballing? Because I saw that some local reporters out

1216
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: in say the Bay Area, were saying, We're like updating

1217
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: in real time. Okay, now Barbara Lee is on board

1218
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: and then but not just limited to progressive was like

1219
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 1: it seemed like a number of like a there was

1220
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 1: a snowball effect going on. Yeah, that's what's interesting about it.

1221
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: When I was talking to sources in Congress about this,

1222
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 1: they were surprised at the prominence of some of the

1223
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: individuals who were not, you know, by any stretch of

1224
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 1: the imagination UH squad members or progressives, and the fact

1225
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 1: that they sign on to this is an indication of

1226
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 1: how serious of a you know, breach not just of

1227
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 1: US Israeli relations, but just basic humanitarian norms. I think

1228
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 1: that something like this was when you talk to folks

1229
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 1: in the region, people in the Middle East, they you

1230
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 1: mentioned this reporter. This was not a marginal reporter. This

1231
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 1: was the equivalent of like, I don't know, like some

1232
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 1: you know, person that anyone would recognize from the cable

1233
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 1: news show or something ken clip and stuff. That's exactly

1234
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:01,560
Speaker 1: right of Palestine. So, you know, and I think that

1235
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot No, but seriously, she more than twenty

1236
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: years of experience in the field in Palestine, somebody who

1237
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 1: was really an icon of journalism over there. Which can

1238
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: will be come on my way there yet, but yes,

1239
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: like give me time. Yes, I'm a tremendous reporter who

1240
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,400
Speaker 1: most people who have watched Al Jazera English or have

1241
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, are interested in that know immediately who they're

1242
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 1: talking about, one of the when you think about Sharen

1243
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 1: but go ahead side. Yeah, the prominence of this person

1244
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 1: who was killed, and the fact that you know the

1245
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: US now is asserting or you know, in this letters

1246
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:34,880
Speaker 1: is asking the FBI in the State Department to you know,

1247
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: assert some kind of response that is going to send

1248
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: the message to Israel that this is unacceptable. So my

1249
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 1: understanding is that it's garnered a lot more signatures than

1250
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 1: the two co leads that I initially reported on. You

1251
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:50,520
Speaker 1: mentioned this a moment ago. Bay Area news outlet KQED

1252
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 1: reported that they'd gotten I think two or three more reps,

1253
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: And my understanding is that there are a bunch more

1254
01:10:56,840 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 1: and they're going to keep circulating this trying to gather

1255
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:00,960
Speaker 1: as many signatures as they can before they end up

1256
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 1: sending it. But I think it's going to be a

1257
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 1: very awkward from the perspective of the Biden administration. Asked,

1258
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: because this is something that is very clearly has broad

1259
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:11,799
Speaker 1: support I think in in at least among Democrats in Congress,

1260
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 1: and to see what the administration is going to do

1261
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: to a government that you know, historically they have been

1262
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: very differential to and so I think there's actually there's

1263
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: a good reason for the for people to be skeptical

1264
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 1: of whether this investigation will be independent on it. Sarah,

1265
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 1: if you remember, right after she was killed, the IDF

1266
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: and and some of the government Israeli government leaders put

1267
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: out a video showing a Palestinian gunman firing down an

1268
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 1: alleyway saying like it looks it looks like Palestinians may

1269
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: have accidentally. They had to roll that back when when

1270
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 1: there was analysis done of it shown that actually so

1271
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:53,680
Speaker 1: they were shooting down an alley that was correct, It

1272
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 1: was happening around the same time, but at the other

1273
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: end of the alley were IDF forces who were also

1274
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 1: shooting back. But then from out of the F there

1275
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 1: was a direct line to where accle was. There's been

1276
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,560
Speaker 1: bellingcat who is You know a lot of people just

1277
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 1: associate with having a pro Western bias, but a lot

1278
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: of their work actually does cut against the other grain.

1279
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,759
Speaker 1: Like some that you know a lot, they have sophisticated analysts.

1280
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 1: They came out and said, no, our forensic analysis of

1281
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 1: this suggests that it could It could only really have

1282
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 1: been the idea. And so then at the funeral you

1283
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 1: have Israeli police, you know, beating the mourners to the

1284
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,720
Speaker 1: point where they almost completely dropped her casket. And so

1285
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:42,679
Speaker 1: from that perspective're like, how on earth could anybody trust

1286
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: this government then to do an impartial investigation into its

1287
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 1: culpability here, right, And the Israeli government, you know, tried

1288
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 1: to argue that, well, the police, you know, targeted the

1289
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 1: mourners because they were respecting the family's wishes to have

1290
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:00,559
Speaker 1: the funeral proceed in a certain way, and obviously that's

1291
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 1: been met with quite a bit of skepticism. So yeah,

1292
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 1: that's not how the right. The family did not want

1293
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 1: it to unfold, how it did. Yeah, I think anybody

1294
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 1: could watch the video and have a little skepticism about

1295
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 1: that argument. So yeah, I think your point is completely

1296
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:18,640
Speaker 1: made that a lot of people would have reason to

1297
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:25,440
Speaker 1: question if the Israeli government could execute a truly unbiased investigation.

1298
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: What was incredible, too, is if you look at just

1299
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: the Israeli government's response to when the police beat the protesters.

1300
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 1: Initially they were asking the plice, why are you doing this?

1301
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:37,479
Speaker 1: At first their claim was well, they were waving around

1302
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:41,920
Speaker 1: Palestinian flags and chanting nationalist mantras, and that was there

1303
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:45,600
Speaker 1: was their stated reason for this. That's incredible, you know,

1304
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 1: and it's just to any sort of audience watching that,

1305
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:51,479
Speaker 1: I mean, it goes a long way towards explaining why

1306
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:54,920
Speaker 1: there is this skepticism that exists, where its what nature

1307
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 1: the investigation is going to be. And then not just that,

1308
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: but the video they released they actually edit, selectively edited

1309
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,799
Speaker 1: video to make it look like someone was throwing rocks

1310
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 1: at the police, and the idea being that this was

1311
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:09,360
Speaker 1: provoked the police response. I can't remember who was able

1312
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 1: to find this out, but what it showed was that

1313
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 1: the video was sort of I think it was sped

1314
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 1: up and omitted a part that made it look like

1315
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,959
Speaker 1: a guy who was just waving his arms in frustration

1316
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: at how horrifying this scene was. They made it look

1317
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 1: like he was sort of you know, charging at someone

1318
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 1: or throwing something, and it wasn't the case at all. Right,

1319
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 1: And so just again and again these indications that there's

1320
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: not a good faith mindset on the part of the

1321
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 1: Israeli government when it comes to any sort of look

1322
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:39,479
Speaker 1: into what happened here and the effort to defend that

1323
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:41,960
Speaker 1: is now bleeding into and I want to talk about

1324
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 1: your story in a second, is now bleeding into democratic primaries.

1325
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:50,759
Speaker 1: Just on Tuesday, you had APAC combined with the MFI

1326
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 1: Democratic Majority for Israel using mostly Republican donor money to

1327
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:58,840
Speaker 1: intervene in a bunch of different primaries, including two in

1328
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 1: North Carolina. In one in Western Pennsylvania, they spent million

1329
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 1: three million dollars against Summerly in Pennsylvania, several million against

1330
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:13,559
Speaker 1: Erica Smith and Nita Alam. With Nita Alam and Eric Smith,

1331
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 1: it was enough to get their opponents over at the top.

1332
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:21,679
Speaker 1: In Western Pennsylvania, they were able to take a twenty

1333
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: five point gap and close it to a triple digits

1334
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 1: right now, and Steve Irwin is suggesting that he's going

1335
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 1: to go for a recount, like they were able to

1336
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:32,720
Speaker 1: bring it that close, but we're still not to get

1337
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:35,439
Speaker 1: able to get it over the top. They're now saying

1338
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 1: that what that says is that there's no support, you know,

1339
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: among the American people for the left anti Israel politics.

1340
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 1: Now the left argues that it's actually a pack that

1341
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:48,680
Speaker 1: is long term anti Israel, because the way that they

1342
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: are pushing them in such a hard line direction is

1343
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: leading them into this into this culd, a stack of

1344
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 1: international isolation that is that is going to be detrimental

1345
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 1: long term. But setting that aside, the ads were not

1346
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 1: about Israel in either North Carolina or Pennsylvania. It wasn't

1347
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 1: as if there was a public debate in Pittsburgh over

1348
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:11,560
Speaker 1: candidate who was pro Israel, wine who's anti Israel, and

1349
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: voters chose X Y or Z E. What kind of

1350
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 1: ads they run instead? Yeah, I mean this consistently, you know,

1351
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,880
Speaker 1: is something that we've been seeing where the kinds of

1352
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: ads that they're running have really there's no indication that

1353
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: there's anything about Israel and politics. So it just goes

1354
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: to show that, you know, this sort of as you

1355
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 1: were saying repeatedly, we see like these bad faith attempts

1356
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 1: to involve themselves in American politics that you know, are

1357
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 1: not actually about their long term interests and don't necessarily

1358
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: help their long term interests from what it appears that

1359
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:52,599
Speaker 1: they are, but instead using sort of these right wing

1360
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:59,720
Speaker 1: donors to marginalize progressives often and you know, I think

1361
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 1: hacker DMFI came out and said when Summerly emerged as

1362
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:07,600
Speaker 1: the victor by just a slight majority, that that was

1363
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:10,759
Speaker 1: an indicator that, you know, her brand of progressive politics

1364
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 1: is not popular in the Democratic Party, which well, she

1365
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:16,680
Speaker 1: emerged victorious. So I don't want to see how that

1366
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: that argument makes. That's sense, That's how you know, when

1367
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: there's this organic upswell of support for Israel, when when

1368
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:24,599
Speaker 1: they have to dump millions into this and that none

1369
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:27,600
Speaker 1: of the ads overtly mentioned the you know policy with

1370
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 1: respect to Israel. It's just risable on its face, I

1371
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:32,880
Speaker 1: feel like. And so I also want to take a

1372
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:34,640
Speaker 1: little time to talk about your story this week. So

1373
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 1: Sarah's beat for several years now has basically been the

1374
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:42,679
Speaker 1: military industrial complex, and so you have a fascinating piece

1375
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 1: that that calls back to the debates that the White

1376
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:51,479
Speaker 1: House Press Corps was having with the White House early

1377
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:55,639
Speaker 1: in the early in the invasion, saying where are the planes?

1378
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 1: Why are we not getting you know, these fighter jets?

1379
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:00,680
Speaker 1: Why are we not getting these planes? Okay, if we

1380
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:02,280
Speaker 1: can't give them their plans, give them the MiGs and

1381
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 1: we'll give the planes the Polish and the Polish you

1382
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 1: could get the MiGs to the Ukrainian Why aren't we

1383
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 1: setting up no fly zones? Why are we setting up

1384
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 1: no fly zones? Zelenski and other Ukrainian officials have made

1385
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:14,759
Speaker 1: so clear that what they believe they need the most

1386
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:19,600
Speaker 1: is more warplanes and fighter jets. So why is the

1387
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 1: US assessing something different? Why is the US believe they

1388
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 1: know better what markin means than what Ukrainian officials are

1389
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 1: saying they need the most. It sounds like, you know,

1390
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:42,639
Speaker 1: we're pretty dug in on our position when it comes

1391
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 1: to the no fly zone, when it comes to the MiGs.

1392
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: Despite this growing call by persison call Congress to shift

1393
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 1: a little bit, to put it blently, is Zelensky wasting

1394
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:58,719
Speaker 1: his time tomorrow asking for these things? Prison cheek Congress Tomorrow,

1395
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:01,760
Speaker 1: he's been pushing for fighter jets, a no fly zone.

1396
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: We hears some of those same reflts tomorrow as well

1397
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: as immistration shift, thinking shift them that at all? Actually,

1398
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,040
Speaker 1: though calling for a note fly zoneer a NATO member,

1399
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 1: they share a border with Russia, how do we view

1400
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:17,599
Speaker 1: their calls for a no fly zone? A non presidential

1401
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 1: piece of address tomorrow of course, he is expected to

1402
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:23,040
Speaker 1: ask for more assistance. As my colleague noted, a lot

1403
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: of the US positions on that haven't changed, as you

1404
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 1: just said, when it comes to the knife no fly zone,

1405
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: but on the aircraft specifically, the Pentagon said last week

1406
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 1: the Secretary of Austin said they do not support the

1407
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:36,680
Speaker 1: transfer of additional fighter aircraft at this time. Is that

1408
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 1: still the United States's position? Would a strike in Poland

1409
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 1: on supplies or anything really automatically be met with a

1410
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:48,240
Speaker 1: military or forceful response, which would be a conversation amongst

1411
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 1: allies about how to respond. There are reports that are

1412
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:55,880
Speaker 1: Russian drone made its way into Polish airspace before going

1413
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 1: back to Ukraine and being shocked at does a drone

1414
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:03,720
Speaker 1: into Poland? Count former Ambassador to Ukraine and Maria Ivanovitch

1415
01:20:03,840 --> 01:20:07,760
Speaker 1: has been quite outspoken recently, and she said you need

1416
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,719
Speaker 1: to mitigate risk. But it's also true that not taking

1417
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: greater actually comes with a risk as well, because Kuna

1418
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:17,720
Speaker 1: is a bully and he only understands the strength. Is

1419
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,560
Speaker 1: the president showing enough strength against Putin? Putin were to

1420
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 1: use chemical weapons, would it change the President's thinking when

1421
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 1: it comes to these snakes taking the nplizone off the table.

1422
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:29,760
Speaker 1: But if you still know you prepared, can you give

1423
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:32,439
Speaker 1: us any more details about what that threat means of

1424
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:35,840
Speaker 1: severe consequences? The President obviously made the same threat last week.

1425
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:40,360
Speaker 1: Is that purely economic consequences or would there potentially be

1426
01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:44,320
Speaker 1: a military that The answer from the White House was constantly,

1427
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:49,719
Speaker 1: we don't want American forces and Russian forces in direct

1428
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:52,400
Speaker 1: combat because that could lead to nuclear war. That feels

1429
01:20:52,439 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 1: like a pretty uncontroversial. God, do you even have Marco

1430
01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 1: Rubio coming out in Marco Rubio in doors seeing this?

1431
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,839
Speaker 1: You know, no no flies on that line is somewhat

1432
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 1: being held. But so you have a you have a

1433
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 1: piece this week about a push by the military industrial complex,

1434
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:11,200
Speaker 1: with the support of some elements of the of our

1435
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:16,559
Speaker 1: political structure, to say, Okay, you know, we can't do planes,

1436
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: we can't do fighter jets, can't do MiGs. What about

1437
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:22,720
Speaker 1: these things that are basically fighter jets but they're unmanned? Right?

1438
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 1: So what are these reaper drones? Right? So reaper drones,

1439
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 1: I mean, from the perspective of the military industrial complex

1440
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 1: and the people that are very much in favor of

1441
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,600
Speaker 1: sending fighter jets, they effectively can can function very similarly.

1442
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:40,680
Speaker 1: They can do mass surveillance, they can do carry very

1443
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 1: intense air to ground weapons. And so if we can't

1444
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 1: get manned fighter jets to Ukraine, maybe we can try

1445
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:54,320
Speaker 1: to get unmanned fighter jets Technically things, yeah, I mean,

1446
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 1: they're much bigger than the switch blade rones that handheld

1447
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 1: backpacked drones that we've sent, these Kamikaze drones that have

1448
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:05,799
Speaker 1: gained quite a bit of fame for being sent to Ukraine.

1449
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a big missiles and like, oh yeah,

1450
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: they carry healthfire missiles which the US has notoriously used,

1451
01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 1: carried by m Q nine reapers to target or indiscriminately

1452
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 1: target people in Afghanistan, in Somalia, and they've been found

1453
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 1: to harm civilians. And now there's this effort to get

1454
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: them to Ukraine. And this would be a significant step

1455
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:35,479
Speaker 1: up in the kinds of weapons that the US has

1456
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:39,680
Speaker 1: already sent and could be very provocative from the perspective

1457
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 1: of the Russians and potentially lead to that escalation that

1458
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: the Biden administration has been trying to avoid. And there's

1459
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 1: no American pilot in the cockpit. It's unman drone obviously,

1460
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:54,560
Speaker 1: but who would man these or woman these. Yeah, so

1461
01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:59,919
Speaker 1: the idea that's been put forth is that Ukrainian pilots

1462
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 1: could pilot. Yes, so realistic. So you know, in the

1463
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 1: US Air Force, pilots have to have at least a

1464
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 1: year of training before they can fly reapers. But General

1465
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 1: Atomics has said, well, we can expedite the training. Well motivated,

1466
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,000
Speaker 1: they're the ones who make the reapers. Look. How motivated

1467
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian forces have proved to be so far in

1468
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 1: the war, we can train them on a much faster time.

1469
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:30,759
Speaker 1: At lazy Americans, you need a year, but a motivated

1470
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:36,599
Speaker 1: Ukrainian plan. Sure, And well I'm not sure that there's

1471
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 1: been a specific timeline, but you know, I was speaking

1472
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:41,640
Speaker 1: with a General Atomics spokesman who said, well, you know,

1473
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:44,599
Speaker 1: before the State Department moves forward and approves this, while

1474
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:47,759
Speaker 1: we're still in the negotiation phase, we could start training

1475
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:52,400
Speaker 1: Ukrainian pilots now, which would be fairly unprecedented also for

1476
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:56,280
Speaker 1: the way that these kinds of deals move forward. So

1477
01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's certainly this effort. We seen the press,

1478
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 1: you know, kind of beckon the administration, are are you

1479
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:08,599
Speaker 1: going to move forward and do this? We've seen several

1480
01:24:08,720 --> 01:24:11,920
Speaker 1: think tankers that are backed by General Atomics, the maker

1481
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 1: of the Reaper, argue in the media that the US

1482
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 1: should be sending m Q nine's. We had Adam Kinsinger

1483
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 1: and a few other Democrat lawmakers send letter to the

1484
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:26,519
Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense asking well, what kind of timeline could

1485
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 1: we train the Ukrainian pilots on the business? The business

1486
01:24:30,479 --> 01:24:33,479
Speaker 1: side here is fascinating because, as you describe in your story,

1487
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:38,680
Speaker 1: this company is bit on the rocks, which to me

1488
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:41,720
Speaker 1: is pathetic, Like, how are you a weapons maker in

1489
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,280
Speaker 1: the United States and you're not turning a profit? Like,

1490
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:49,600
Speaker 1: come on? And the clowns from war Dogs managed to

1491
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 1: get themselves rich, so they've so there, this is their

1492
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:56,519
Speaker 1: like prize baby, Like, yeah, and how much is one

1493
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:58,360
Speaker 1: of these things? You said, a three hundred million bucks

1494
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:02,640
Speaker 1: or something? Well, so, so one individual aircraft can go

1495
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:05,840
Speaker 1: for about thirty at least thirty million. But then but

1496
01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:09,760
Speaker 1: then what there's also all of the maintenance and operational

1497
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,880
Speaker 1: support and all of the structure that goes with it,

1498
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:20,160
Speaker 1: which adds exponentially onto it when you're at a Toyota dealer. Yeah, exactly,

1499
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 1: so actually worked, So these are incredibly expensive, which just

1500
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 1: goes to show that if we if the US were

1501
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 1: to approve a sale or a leasing agreement with the Ukrainians,

1502
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:34,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the US government would basically have to be

1503
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:40,960
Speaker 1: involved in funding this. So so yeah, So General Atomics

1504
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 1: has had frustration over the years because the US has

1505
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:47,559
Speaker 1: a very strict export policy about who are not letting

1506
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 1: just anybody buy these? We're not just letting anyone by

1507
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 1: MQ nine reapers. I mean essentially, up until the Trump administration,

1508
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 1: it was understood only NATO allies could could have these

1509
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 1: because they're they're dangerous weapons. They can care very sophisticated,

1510
01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:05,920
Speaker 1: very dangerous missiles and be used in mass surveillance. And

1511
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:10,360
Speaker 1: so during the Trump administration, as part of its effort

1512
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:16,400
Speaker 1: to broaden US arm cells abroad, they eased this export policy.

1513
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 1: Who started getting them, So the UAE was approved, which

1514
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 1: is sure act responsibly, which is obviously a very big

1515
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 1: step up. Taiwan, which is a big step up. And

1516
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 1: so and so, you know, General Atomics very much is

1517
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 1: in favor of continuing to allow more and more countries

1518
01:26:35,439 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 1: to access naturally, you know. Sure, so you know they

1519
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:41,559
Speaker 1: see Lockheed Martin making a ton of money selling their

1520
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 1: fighter jets to all different countries a broad Why shouldn't

1521
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:46,559
Speaker 1: they have the ability right? And so there's this big

1522
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:50,280
Speaker 1: fight going on on the hill and in the administration,

1523
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 1: this big law being effort to ease export policy to

1524
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:58,320
Speaker 1: allow these exports to occur. So this question about whether

1525
01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:02,320
Speaker 1: this effort to allow the Ukrainians to have access to

1526
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:06,559
Speaker 1: the m Q ninees is occurring within this broader effort

1527
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:09,840
Speaker 1: to ease export posers, which feels inevitable. The idea that

1528
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 1: you're going to create these massively expensive weapons systems and

1529
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:17,600
Speaker 1: then and then you're going to restrict who you're going

1530
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,680
Speaker 1: to sell them to. Obviously you should, but there's just

1531
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: so much pressure to push against that. And Ken, how

1532
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:25,720
Speaker 1: does this fit into the reporting that you've done on

1533
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 1: kind of the arms sales and Middle East politics. Yeah,

1534
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:31,640
Speaker 1: so in my reporting I focus on what's called the

1535
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:37,240
Speaker 1: ISR stands for it's like the reconnaissance. Yeah, intelligence surveillance

1536
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:40,439
Speaker 1: or reconnaissance. It's this fleet of aircraft from the A

1537
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 1: wax to all sorts of different things they used to

1538
01:27:44,479 --> 01:27:46,599
Speaker 1: It's pretty amazing what their capabilities are. They can peer

1539
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:49,640
Speaker 1: deep inside of Ukraine from outside of the border. The

1540
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 1: idea being that you know, we're not going to go

1541
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:55,880
Speaker 1: in Ukraine to avoid becoming labeled a belligerent, but we're

1542
01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:57,559
Speaker 1: going to work from outside of it and then pass

1543
01:27:57,600 --> 01:28:00,720
Speaker 1: intelligence onto the Ukrainians that they're able to gather. And

1544
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:05,240
Speaker 1: so these is this sort of a presence that Biden

1545
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 1: has had since not even day one, Since before day one,

1546
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:10,760
Speaker 1: they've been operating at the border, collecting intelligence, passing things.

1547
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:12,880
Speaker 1: That's the way they were accurately able to say, hey,

1548
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:15,439
Speaker 1: there's one hundred and twenty five thousand Russian troops exactly

1549
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 1: on the border. They weren't guessing exactly. And if you want,

1550
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:20,360
Speaker 1: if you look at the earnings calls for some of

1551
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,799
Speaker 1: these corporations like Lockheed, this is an area of focus

1552
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:26,160
Speaker 1: for them that they identified as a as a growth

1553
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 1: sector going forward because, as Sarah said earlier, not just

1554
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:32,599
Speaker 1: are you deploying these things, but you need to maintain them,

1555
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,439
Speaker 1: which can be very experienive. Contracts are often the bigger

1556
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:39,760
Speaker 1: source of revenue than even the initial sale exactly. And

1557
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,439
Speaker 1: that's something I didn't realize until investiaand is kind of

1558
01:28:42,439 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 1: thing just how much money is involved in these things

1559
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:47,559
Speaker 1: on a sustained basis not even just a one off thing.

1560
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 1: And if you look at northern Virginia and the suburbs

1561
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:52,679
Speaker 1: of Maryland, like you see where that money has stayed.

1562
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 1: Like you can just you can just map kind of

1563
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 1: housing prices and the development out there. Great reporting, both

1564
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 1: of both of you, the throtic Kenklippenstein, and for everybody watching.

1565
01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:05,720
Speaker 1: You know, thanks for watching Breaking Points. And also I

1566
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:07,679
Speaker 1: think this is funded. I think you can ask Sager.

1567
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:10,840
Speaker 1: He knows all the details by the people who donate to,

1568
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:14,640
Speaker 1: you know, contribute to Breaking Points. So thank you for

1569
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:17,840
Speaker 1: doing that. If you want to support our journalism, you

1570
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:21,599
Speaker 1: can go to the Intercept dot com and it won't

1571
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:23,960
Speaker 1: be hard to find how to donate there. We badger

1572
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:26,320
Speaker 1: people relentlessly on the site. I think the actual site

1573
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 1: is Intercept dot com slash give. As soon as you

1574
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:31,200
Speaker 1: go to our site, we're like, please help us. We

1575
01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:35,320
Speaker 1: were funded years ago, twenty fourteen by a billionaire, but

1576
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 1: he's not around forever. And you don't necessarily want to

1577
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:41,240
Speaker 1: always be funded by a billionaire. Yeah, and so because

1578
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 1: it takes away your ability to be independent and independent

1579
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:48,000
Speaker 1: media is extremely important. So thank you guys again for

1580
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:53,760
Speaker 1: joining us, and thank thank you guys for watching. Hey, guys,

1581
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:56,320
Speaker 1: we're excited to partner with upcoming YouTuber James Lee of

1582
01:29:56,360 --> 01:29:59,360
Speaker 1: fifty one forty nine. He's going to explain culture, politics,

1583
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:02,080
Speaker 1: anything else. And he's explaining and we're really excited about it. Yep.

1584
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:04,680
Speaker 1: Here is his latest effort. Let's get to it. Hey there,

1585
01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:06,800
Speaker 1: my name is James Lee. Welcome to another segment of

1586
01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 1: fifty one to forty nine on Breaking Points. Now. I

1587
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 1: am sure that many of you at this point who

1588
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:15,000
Speaker 1: are well in tuned with politics, are aware of the

1589
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:20,320
Speaker 1: recent controversial revelations surrounding the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation,

1590
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:26,040
Speaker 1: the umbrella fundraising organization for the BLM movement. Black Lives

1591
01:30:26,120 --> 01:30:30,559
Speaker 1: Matter under more scrutiny over how it's spending donors' money,

1592
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:35,639
Speaker 1: as a new report claims Black Lives Matter leaders use

1593
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:39,759
Speaker 1: six million dollars in donations to buy a massive, beautiful

1594
01:30:39,920 --> 01:30:43,879
Speaker 1: California mansion. Yes, Steve, living like the rich and famous.

1595
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:46,040
Speaker 1: You know, Steve, I'll be very honest with you, ninety

1596
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 1: million dollars. But they basically use Black Americans for profit, Steve.

1597
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 1: Ever since the George Floyd death, black Lives Matter has

1598
01:30:57,200 --> 01:31:00,599
Speaker 1: profited from the George Floyd death. What have they done

1599
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:03,800
Speaker 1: for the Black community? Where are the community centers. Where

1600
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 1: is the improvement of education? They use this money for

1601
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 1: personal gain. I think for many conservatives, this news served

1602
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 1: to vindicate their belief that BLM has always been a

1603
01:31:16,280 --> 01:31:20,560
Speaker 1: deeply flawed, corrupt movement. But the truth, I think is

1604
01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:24,040
Speaker 1: much more complicated than that, As documented by journalist Sean

1605
01:31:24,160 --> 01:31:27,920
Speaker 1: Campbell and his expos about the BLM Global Network Foundation

1606
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:32,840
Speaker 1: shady financial dealings in New York magazine, BLM has become

1607
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:35,120
Speaker 1: a sort of catch all term for the current civil

1608
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:38,960
Speaker 1: rights movement, and the BLM Global Network Foundation has been

1609
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:42,920
Speaker 1: the most visible organization in the broader BLM movement, with

1610
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:46,520
Speaker 1: the organization shown to be marketing, branding, and fundraising experts,

1611
01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:51,280
Speaker 1: but their actual on the ground contributions have been, I think,

1612
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 1: much more limited, and we don't really know for sure

1613
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:57,120
Speaker 1: how they are spending their money. Now. I think the

1614
01:31:57,840 --> 01:32:01,679
Speaker 1: rise and fall of this organization, the BLM Global Network

1615
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:05,520
Speaker 1: Foundation is nowhere they not just because of its attachment

1616
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:09,920
Speaker 1: to the largest protest movement in American history, but also

1617
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:14,240
Speaker 1: because it reveals a broader set of issues plaguing the

1618
01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:19,479
Speaker 1: nonprofit sector and its relationship with activism, with social and

1619
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:23,360
Speaker 1: economic progress. And that's what I want to dive into today,

1620
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 1: which is the dark side of charities and nonprofits, with

1621
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:29,960
Speaker 1: the goal that will all come away with a better

1622
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:34,479
Speaker 1: understanding of how nonprofits can be used for questionable aims

1623
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 1: and what scrutiny you should apply to them when you

1624
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:40,600
Speaker 1: read about nonprofits in the news or considered donating to

1625
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:43,360
Speaker 1: one of these groups. Well, Dana, every year you file

1626
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:46,839
Speaker 1: a tax return, right, Well, for a nonprofit like BLM,

1627
01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:49,920
Speaker 1: that's IRS forum nine ninety. It's basics, it's a bare

1628
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:53,240
Speaker 1: minium that states require when you raise public money. So

1629
01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 1: listen to its founder and BLM's longtime executive director, said

1630
01:32:56,920 --> 01:33:00,120
Speaker 1: Friday about the nine ninety and this controversy about all

1631
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:03,960
Speaker 1: the charity that spent its money. I actually did not

1632
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:06,240
Speaker 1: know what nine nineties were before all of this happened.

1633
01:33:06,320 --> 01:33:08,920
Speaker 1: The accountant handle that, like, I don't know what that is.

1634
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:13,679
Speaker 1: It is such a trip now to hear the word

1635
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:16,680
Speaker 1: that the term nine nineties. I'm like, ugh, it's like

1636
01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 1: the triggering not a great look is being triggered by

1637
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 1: a disclosure form that all nonprofits must fill out. I mean,

1638
01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:27,639
Speaker 1: she was, after all the head of a multi million

1639
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 1: dollar foundation. But in my view, rather than it being

1640
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:34,640
Speaker 1: an indictment on the BLM movement itself, as I think

1641
01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:37,080
Speaker 1: the right wing media like to portray it, and it's

1642
01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:41,000
Speaker 1: I think certainly not an accident that outlets like Fox

1643
01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 1: News chooses to cover a story like this from mostly

1644
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:48,600
Speaker 1: a culture war perspective intended to sow further division in

1645
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 1: this country. We also shouldn't ignore the broader issue, which

1646
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:57,000
Speaker 1: is the perpetuation of a legal and regulatory environment in

1647
01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 1: which an organization like the BLM Global Network Foundation could

1648
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:06,920
Speaker 1: thrive despite repeated instances of financial impropriety and the refusal

1649
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 1: of most of the mainstream media to apply a level

1650
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:11,880
Speaker 1: of scrutiny that an organization of this size should most

1651
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:15,280
Speaker 1: certainly warrant. The fact is nonprofits are some of the

1652
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:20,759
Speaker 1: nation's largest, most powerful organizations hospitals, foundations, universities, and churches.

1653
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:23,519
Speaker 1: In the US, there are over one point five million

1654
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:27,840
Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations generating over two point six trillion dollars in

1655
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:31,120
Speaker 1: annual revenue, and although most like to cloak themselves under

1656
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:35,760
Speaker 1: this aura of charity or altruism, they like any other

1657
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 1: organization or institution, are succeptible to corruption, waste, and abuse.

1658
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:46,400
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, generally speaking, there is a lack of scrutiny

1659
01:34:46,439 --> 01:34:49,280
Speaker 1: in the nonprofit sector all the way from the approval

1660
01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:54,679
Speaker 1: process to the regulatory and enforcement environment. Stanford professor Robert Reich,

1661
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 1: in his paper Anything Goes Approval of nonprofit status by

1662
01:34:58,320 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 1: the IRS, dissected the ethics of present day philanthropy and

1663
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:04,880
Speaker 1: charity and found the IRS approval process for five oh

1664
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:07,679
Speaker 1: one C three public charities, which is the official legal

1665
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:12,200
Speaker 1: classification of what we typically refer to as nonprofits, extremely easy.

1666
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 1: Referencing the chart you see on your screen right, found

1667
01:35:15,160 --> 01:35:18,479
Speaker 1: that the IRS approves more than fifty thousand applications for

1668
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:21,599
Speaker 1: five oh one C three status every year and rejects

1669
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:24,919
Speaker 1: only a very very small number of applicants. Quote. Obtaining

1670
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:27,880
Speaker 1: recognition by the RS as a public charity is an

1671
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:31,480
Speaker 1: embarrassingly easy thing to do. It is hardly an exaggeration

1672
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:33,479
Speaker 1: to say that when it comes to oversight of the

1673
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:37,599
Speaker 1: application process to become a public charity, nearly anything goes.

1674
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:41,120
Speaker 1: So getting approved as a nonprofit in the US is

1675
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:44,559
Speaker 1: effectively a rubber stamp, and once a charity is set

1676
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:47,120
Speaker 1: up through the IRS, is ultimately up to each state's

1677
01:35:47,120 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 1: Attorney general's office to prosecute misconduct and like pretty much

1678
01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:56,200
Speaker 1: every other government agency in the United States, attorney general's

1679
01:35:56,240 --> 01:36:00,920
Speaker 1: offices are oftentimes resource constrained and have limited oversight and

1680
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:05,719
Speaker 1: enforcement capabilities, with only the most obvious and egregious cases

1681
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:08,560
Speaker 1: ever being brought to court. For example, it took the

1682
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:12,080
Speaker 1: California State Attorney General's office over two years of BLM

1683
01:36:12,160 --> 01:36:16,840
Speaker 1: Global Network Foundation not filing financial disclosures, the absolute bare

1684
01:36:16,920 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: minimum for a nonprofit for them to serve a delinquency notice.

1685
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:24,200
Speaker 1: There's also just very little media effort dedicated to watching

1686
01:36:24,240 --> 01:36:27,439
Speaker 1: the nonprofit sector, and if they are, it's done to

1687
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:31,320
Speaker 1: serve partisan interests. Just one example, but the Washington Post

1688
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 1: David Fahrenholt, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting

1689
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 1: on the Trump Foundation, basically had a beat devoted to

1690
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:42,880
Speaker 1: investigating Trump's financial mismanagement and potential misdeeds from the time

1691
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:46,520
Speaker 1: of his first presidential campaign through the remainder of his presidency.

1692
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:50,520
Speaker 1: The problem I see, though, with sort of this activists

1693
01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 1: or activist mindset masquerading around as journalism, is that there

1694
01:36:55,960 --> 01:37:00,320
Speaker 1: will undoubtedly be asymmetric focus on certain organizations based on

1695
01:37:00,960 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 1: certain politically driven motivations, and so otherwise good reporting on

1696
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:09,719
Speaker 1: high profile nonprofits are oftentimes just shrouded in political theater

1697
01:37:10,240 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 1: headlines like BLM's patrise colors, slam's racist report on organization

1698
01:37:15,520 --> 01:37:18,680
Speaker 1: buying six million dollars socle mansion. You know, right wing

1699
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:22,320
Speaker 1: organizations will have no issues amplifying the misdeeds of BLM

1700
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:27,320
Speaker 1: while glossing over the Trump organization's fraudulent practices, while the

1701
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:31,000
Speaker 1: more liberal news outlets will do the exact opposite. And

1702
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:35,120
Speaker 1: I think this problem will only, you know, get worse

1703
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 1: as news outlets become increasingly more aligned with certain ideologies

1704
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:44,519
Speaker 1: or rely on the donations and ownership of the billionaire class.

1705
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:47,759
Speaker 1: This I'll get into more later. But in the cases

1706
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:51,840
Speaker 1: of BLM and Trump, there was a certain political will

1707
01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:55,400
Speaker 1: to put resources behind exposing them. But I wonder, and

1708
01:37:56,080 --> 01:37:59,200
Speaker 1: maybe we should all kind of wonder, what about the

1709
01:37:59,320 --> 01:38:03,479
Speaker 1: cases of nonprofit misconduct where there isn't political will or

1710
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:07,800
Speaker 1: it would be wholly inconvenient to a certain powerful organization

1711
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:12,680
Speaker 1: or individual to investigate how much misconduct actually exists in

1712
01:38:12,760 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: the nonprofit sector. The truth is, we don't really know.

1713
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:19,120
Speaker 1: Based on a research paper documenting fraud and corruption in

1714
01:38:19,280 --> 01:38:23,040
Speaker 1: US nonprofit entities quote empirical research on fraud in the

1715
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:26,320
Speaker 1: for profit sector is well developed, aided by the availability

1716
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:30,800
Speaker 1: of centrally compiled US Securities and Exchange Commission data. In comparison,

1717
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:34,080
Speaker 1: research on nonprofit fraud has been limited by a lack

1718
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:37,960
Speaker 1: of readily available centrally compiled data, leading researchers to rely

1719
01:38:38,200 --> 01:38:41,960
Speaker 1: on survey data or to undertake exploratory studies that identified

1720
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:45,800
Speaker 1: fraud cases during a specific period. The reality is that

1721
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:50,000
Speaker 1: while nonprofits often receive less scrutiny from the government, the media,

1722
01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:53,400
Speaker 1: and the general public, the sector as a whole is

1723
01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:58,000
Speaker 1: actually filled with many potential avenues for misconduct and ripe

1724
01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:02,280
Speaker 1: with perverse incentive that encourage unsavory behaviors. This, to me,

1725
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:07,000
Speaker 1: is a huge blind spot in most discussions about nonprofits.

1726
01:39:07,560 --> 01:39:11,000
Speaker 1: There's this idea of the nonprofit industrial complex, popularized by

1727
01:39:11,040 --> 01:39:13,880
Speaker 1: a book called The Revolution will not be funded. This

1728
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:17,760
Speaker 1: idea that because the nonprofit industry is so lucrative, like

1729
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:20,720
Speaker 1: we discussed before, over two point six trillion dollars in

1730
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:25,040
Speaker 1: annual revenue, there will undoubtedly be, as one scholar defined

1731
01:39:25,080 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 1: it quote, a set of symbiotic relationships that link political

1732
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:32,560
Speaker 1: and financial technologies of state and owning class control with

1733
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:37,719
Speaker 1: surveillance over public political ideology, including an especially emergent progressive

1734
01:39:37,760 --> 01:39:40,400
Speaker 1: and leftist social movements. To put it in simple terms,

1735
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:44,120
Speaker 1: the nonprofit sector can and will be used by wealthy,

1736
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:47,719
Speaker 1: powerful interest to surveil and even co opt nascent social

1737
01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:51,719
Speaker 1: movements that threaten their wealth and power. So the nonprofit

1738
01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:57,000
Speaker 1: industrial complex does not exist to create fundamental change, but

1739
01:39:57,200 --> 01:40:00,400
Speaker 1: rather exists to protect its own status and that of

1740
01:40:00,439 --> 01:40:03,840
Speaker 1: its patrons, which makes it possible for the ruling class

1741
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:06,720
Speaker 1: to not only contain a revolution, but to shut it

1742
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:10,320
Speaker 1: down altogether. For example, in the case of Black Lives Matter,

1743
01:40:10,439 --> 01:40:14,439
Speaker 1: despite huge amounts of grassroots support and engagement, nearly every

1744
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:17,879
Speaker 1: corporation in America was able to co opt the BLM

1745
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:21,040
Speaker 1: slogan without most of them enacting any kind of fundamental

1746
01:40:21,160 --> 01:40:25,000
Speaker 1: changes to their business practices, even in cases where said

1747
01:40:25,040 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 1: corporations employed an exploited, disproportionately black and brown workforce. I'm

1748
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:35,000
Speaker 1: looking at you, Amazon. When BLM first published their website

1749
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:38,080
Speaker 1: back in twenty fifteen, the co founders described themselves as

1750
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:41,639
Speaker 1: quote trained Marxists, but by twenty twenty one they were

1751
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:45,840
Speaker 1: doing Zoom events sponsored by global capitalist boot brand uugh. So,

1752
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:49,320
Speaker 1: looking at the story of the BLM Global Network Foundation.

1753
01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:53,160
Speaker 1: It's hard not to assume some significant character flaws of

1754
01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:56,760
Speaker 1: its leaders, but it's also not hard to imagine that

1755
01:40:56,960 --> 01:41:00,320
Speaker 1: all the money and attention from corporate interests did have

1756
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:04,879
Speaker 1: some effect on their tactics as well. Philosopher Mary Harrington

1757
01:41:04,920 --> 01:41:08,800
Speaker 1: wrote recently an unheard magazine quote, people in glasshouses are

1758
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:12,639
Speaker 1: famously advised not to throw stones, And as the progressive

1759
01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:16,960
Speaker 1: worldview has become more monolithically elite in class terms, it's

1760
01:41:17,040 --> 01:41:20,320
Speaker 1: also lost its antagonism to big business. This is just

1761
01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:23,680
Speaker 1: an observation, my observation, but I think the in the

1762
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 1: streets activist leaders of the nineteen sixties civil rights movement

1763
01:41:27,439 --> 01:41:32,240
Speaker 1: look very different from the champagne sipping activist leaders of

1764
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:36,360
Speaker 1: the modern BLM era civil rights movement. Right. Just something

1765
01:41:36,479 --> 01:41:40,800
Speaker 1: I read recently. Justin Hansford, a Howard University professor, joke

1766
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:44,240
Speaker 1: that having an organization called the Black Lives Matter Global

1767
01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:46,760
Speaker 1: Foundation would be akin to having a group in the

1768
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties call themselves civil rights. Inc Essentially everything today

1769
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:56,600
Speaker 1: has been corporatized. The activists movements used to be so

1770
01:41:56,760 --> 01:42:01,519
Speaker 1: much more skeptical of the nonprofits because of its obvious

1771
01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 1: ties to money and power. But that distress has seemed

1772
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:09,400
Speaker 1: to all but disappear. Quote. Another example is Planned Parenthood's

1773
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:12,720
Speaker 1: Action Fund, which reinforces and perpetuates the idea that the

1774
01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:16,240
Speaker 1: solution to large scale political problems is donating to an

1775
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:19,720
Speaker 1: organization that then hires a lobbyist, as opposed to say,

1776
01:42:19,880 --> 01:42:23,679
Speaker 1: building a mass movement capable of occupying Congress or otherwise

1777
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:27,479
Speaker 1: disrupting business as usual until its demands are met. We

1778
01:42:27,560 --> 01:42:29,760
Speaker 1: seem to have adopted a kind of leave it up

1779
01:42:29,800 --> 01:42:34,280
Speaker 1: to experts mentality. There's a nonprofit to day for basically

1780
01:42:34,360 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: every cause BLM, Planned Parenthood, or the many Ukraine or

1781
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:39,880
Speaker 1: relief funds that have recently popped up, and for the

1782
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 1: most part we just kind of assume that they all

1783
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:45,320
Speaker 1: know what they're doing and have the best interests of

1784
01:42:45,360 --> 01:42:48,679
Speaker 1: those they claim to serve in mind. So, for most

1785
01:42:49,479 --> 01:42:52,280
Speaker 1: socially conscious folks who want to feel like they are

1786
01:42:52,360 --> 01:42:57,120
Speaker 1: contributing positively to society but are also busy living their

1787
01:42:57,160 --> 01:42:59,960
Speaker 1: own lives, the logical conclusion is to just give money

1788
01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:03,200
Speaker 1: to a nonprofit and let them handle it. But the

1789
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:08,879
Speaker 1: question is, can the interests of the nonprofit industrial complex,

1790
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:12,960
Speaker 1: with its ties to mega foundations funded by corporations and

1791
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:16,560
Speaker 1: the ultra wealthy actually aligned to the interests of the

1792
01:43:16,640 --> 01:43:20,360
Speaker 1: people who they claim to serve. Because one has to wonder,

1793
01:43:21,200 --> 01:43:24,360
Speaker 1: are these wealthy, powerful people setting up these foundations for

1794
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:29,880
Speaker 1: purely altruistic or humanitarian reasons, or do these foundations serve

1795
01:43:30,360 --> 01:43:34,800
Speaker 1: ulterior purposes such as protecting the reputations and projecting the

1796
01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:37,840
Speaker 1: power of the people who run them. And perhaps no

1797
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:41,120
Speaker 1: other foundation raises this question more than that of the

1798
01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:45,040
Speaker 1: world's largest charitable foundation in the world, the Gates Foundation.

1799
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 1: The world is on the brink of a great scientific achievement.

1800
01:43:50,920 --> 01:43:55,439
Speaker 1: A COVID nineteen vaccine will likely be ready by early

1801
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:59,880
Speaker 1: next year. In fact, will probably have more than one

1802
01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 1: I'M vaccine ready. These vaccines will allow us to save

1803
01:44:05,400 --> 01:44:11,080
Speaker 1: millions of lives. They'll also have another enormous benefit. They'll

1804
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:15,160
Speaker 1: allow us to develop a plan for the world to

1805
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:19,839
Speaker 1: globally eliminate COVID nineteen. That was Bill Gates from September

1806
01:44:19,880 --> 01:44:22,240
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, speaking at an event hosted by the

1807
01:44:22,479 --> 01:44:26,120
Speaker 1: who called Accelerating the End of the COVID nineteen pandemic.

1808
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:30,360
Speaker 1: But my question, and the question we should all be asking,

1809
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:33,800
Speaker 1: is how did Bill Gates how did a billionaire in

1810
01:44:33,920 --> 01:44:38,560
Speaker 1: Seattle gain so much power over global public health? In

1811
01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:41,400
Speaker 1: an article titled with the exact same question, Slate reporter

1812
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:45,479
Speaker 1: Mary Harris interviewed journalist Tim Schwab, who explains, all in all,

1813
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:48,640
Speaker 1: the Gates Foundations spent one point eight billion dollars on

1814
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:52,519
Speaker 1: global public health in twenty twenty alone, but that meant

1815
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:55,719
Speaker 1: there were few checks or balances on what Gates funded

1816
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:58,479
Speaker 1: groups were up to. If you look across global health,

1817
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:02,240
Speaker 1: they're funding everybody. Nobody is more than one degree removed

1818
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:05,599
Speaker 1: from the Gates Foundation, So it's really difficult to avoid

1819
01:45:05,880 --> 01:45:09,679
Speaker 1: the foundation's money. And that's also the case for journalists.

1820
01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:12,760
Speaker 1: If you're a journalist writing about global health, you might

1821
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:14,840
Speaker 1: end up getting a fellowship or a grant to do

1822
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:18,240
Speaker 1: reporting that's funded by the Gates Foundation. So it's really

1823
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:21,519
Speaker 1: hard to overstate how much influence that gives the foundation.

1824
01:45:22,040 --> 01:45:25,720
Speaker 1: I think the Gates Foundation has undoubtedly fundamentally altered the

1825
01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:28,960
Speaker 1: image of Bill Gates right in the past, viewed as

1826
01:45:29,080 --> 01:45:32,080
Speaker 1: a kind of a monopolistic robber baron when he began

1827
01:45:32,160 --> 01:45:35,960
Speaker 1: building his riches at Microsoft, Gates is now seen today

1828
01:45:36,280 --> 01:45:40,320
Speaker 1: as this magnanimous humanitarian by a lot of folks, because

1829
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:44,479
Speaker 1: he has bought that image through massive investments funneled through

1830
01:45:44,600 --> 01:45:48,880
Speaker 1: his foundation. But I think, to no one's surprise, consistently,

1831
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:52,639
Speaker 1: the Gates Foundation has advocated for this kind of top down,

1832
01:45:52,920 --> 01:45:58,320
Speaker 1: arguably neo colonial, interventionalist policies where the so called experts

1833
01:45:58,360 --> 01:46:01,160
Speaker 1: from the developed world go into to the developing world

1834
01:46:01,560 --> 01:46:05,880
Speaker 1: to once again, quote unquote solve their problems. Schwab continues quote.

1835
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:09,080
Speaker 1: The Gate Foundation is a very top down, technocratic enterprise

1836
01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:12,400
Speaker 1: where Bill Gates sees himself as this really smart guy

1837
01:46:12,479 --> 01:46:15,599
Speaker 1: with these innovative ideas and technology, and he surrounds himself

1838
01:46:15,640 --> 01:46:19,360
Speaker 1: with this elite cadre of highly educated experts, and it's

1839
01:46:19,439 --> 01:46:23,040
Speaker 1: his view that from this person Seattle, they can devise

1840
01:46:23,080 --> 01:46:25,679
Speaker 1: solutions to fix all the problems of the global poor.

1841
01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:28,800
Speaker 1: And that's a very different approach than going out into

1842
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:31,400
Speaker 1: a poor nation or a poor community and talking to

1843
01:46:31,439 --> 01:46:33,960
Speaker 1: people and asking them what they need and what they want.

1844
01:46:34,439 --> 01:46:36,559
Speaker 1: I've talked about the power of capital in my previous

1845
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:39,559
Speaker 1: breaking point segment, and I think it's very applicable here.

1846
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 1: This idea that in modern America, capital and the interests

1847
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:47,639
Speaker 1: of capital have risen above the American nation and political

1848
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:50,599
Speaker 1: authority is unable to check the power of capital. Right

1849
01:46:51,160 --> 01:46:56,280
Speaker 1: through the Gates Foundation, Bill Gates has successfully inserted himself

1850
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:59,960
Speaker 1: at the top of this kind of complex philanthropic empire

1851
01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:03,320
Speaker 1: that allows him to have a major impact on policymaking

1852
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:08,400
Speaker 1: regarding numerous pressing global issues, all while getting significant tax

1853
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:11,280
Speaker 1: breaks from the US government. You know, Bill Gates is

1854
01:47:11,360 --> 01:47:13,479
Speaker 1: one of the richest people in the world. The idea

1855
01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:15,560
Speaker 1: that he's giving away all of his money is just

1856
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:19,280
Speaker 1: not true. In fact, he's getting richer and richer every year.

1857
01:47:19,880 --> 01:47:23,080
Speaker 1: So should this really be considered charity? I think my

1858
01:47:23,200 --> 01:47:26,560
Speaker 1: point is that there should be more scrutiny of the

1859
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:30,240
Speaker 1: nonprofit sector from all angles. The government needs to do

1860
01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:34,240
Speaker 1: more to ensure effective oversight and enforcement. The media should

1861
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:38,879
Speaker 1: do more to dedicate more resources into investigating the nonprofit

1862
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:43,280
Speaker 1: sector beyond just the whims of dredging up fodder for

1863
01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:46,760
Speaker 1: political theater or for partisan interests. And I think we

1864
01:47:46,920 --> 01:47:49,519
Speaker 1: can do more to follow the money when it comes

1865
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:52,640
Speaker 1: to the nonprofit sector. Who is leading these groups, what

1866
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:56,840
Speaker 1: might be their ulterior motives, How is my donation money

1867
01:47:56,920 --> 01:48:00,840
Speaker 1: being spent? But perhaps more important may behoove us to

1868
01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:05,000
Speaker 1: examine and think about why activism in America today is

1869
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:09,600
Speaker 1: mostly mediated through the nonprofit industrial complex, and how the

1870
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:14,160
Speaker 1: proliferation of nonprofits and activism has likely shifted and conflated

1871
01:48:14,200 --> 01:48:17,040
Speaker 1: America's values and beliefs when it comes to what we

1872
01:48:17,200 --> 01:48:20,840
Speaker 1: imagine could activism to be. That is all for me

1873
01:48:20,960 --> 01:48:24,200
Speaker 1: this time. I hope you enjoyed today's discussion about the

1874
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:27,760
Speaker 1: dark side of the nonprofit industrial complex. If you'd like

1875
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 1: to know more about this topic and many others, please

1876
01:48:30,080 --> 01:48:32,519
Speaker 1: check out my channel fifty one forty nine with James

1877
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:35,839
Speaker 1: Lee on YouTube, where I release weekly videos about topics

1878
01:48:36,240 --> 01:48:39,840
Speaker 1: relating to the intersection of business, politics, and society. The

1879
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:42,880
Speaker 1: link will be in the description below, and of course,

1880
01:48:43,120 --> 01:48:45,360
Speaker 1: subscribe to Breaking Points and thank you so much for

1881
01:48:45,400 --> 01:48:51,880
Speaker 1: your time today. Hi. I'm Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor

1882
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:54,280
Speaker 1: in chief of the Real News Network and host of

1883
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 1: the podcast Working People and this is the Art of

1884
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:01,240
Speaker 1: class War. On Breaking Points. Today, we're going to do

1885
01:49:01,360 --> 01:49:04,080
Speaker 1: something a little different from the last two segments that

1886
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:07,439
Speaker 1: we published here on Breaking Points, but I assure you

1887
01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:10,720
Speaker 1: the subject matter is no less important. I want to

1888
01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:13,040
Speaker 1: give everyone a heads up right at the top that

1889
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:15,800
Speaker 1: we will be touching on issues and stories today that

1890
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:22,040
Speaker 1: deal with different forms of abuse, discrimination, harassment, and even suicide.

1891
01:49:22,760 --> 01:49:25,600
Speaker 1: And I want to encourage every viewer and listener to

1892
01:49:25,720 --> 01:49:28,320
Speaker 1: please use the links we've included in the description for

1893
01:49:28,439 --> 01:49:32,360
Speaker 1: this video. If you or someone you know is experiencing

1894
01:49:32,479 --> 01:49:35,080
Speaker 1: the kind of distress or is involved in the kind

1895
01:49:35,120 --> 01:49:38,400
Speaker 1: of attacks that we'll be talking about today, and even

1896
01:49:38,439 --> 01:49:42,640
Speaker 1: if you yourself have managed to avoid experiencing these things firsthand,

1897
01:49:43,479 --> 01:49:45,759
Speaker 1: I would also encourage you to check out those links

1898
01:49:45,800 --> 01:49:49,400
Speaker 1: as well, because chances are you know someone who has

1899
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:52,880
Speaker 1: not been as fortunate, but you can still do something

1900
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:56,120
Speaker 1: to help. Because what we are talking about today has

1901
01:49:56,200 --> 01:50:00,920
Speaker 1: been described repeatedly by specialists, labor leaders, and workers' rights

1902
01:50:00,960 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 1: advocates as an epidemic, even if we don't treat it

1903
01:50:04,320 --> 01:50:10,920
Speaker 1: as such. We're talking today about workplace bullying. First, we

1904
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:13,840
Speaker 1: need to define our terms. We're going to return to

1905
01:50:13,880 --> 01:50:16,280
Speaker 1: the term bullying itself by the end of this segment,

1906
01:50:16,840 --> 01:50:19,080
Speaker 1: but for now, I am asking you to try as

1907
01:50:19,120 --> 01:50:22,760
Speaker 1: hard as you can to set aside whatever prejudices or

1908
01:50:22,800 --> 01:50:27,720
Speaker 1: preconceptions you have about this word, and we all have them. Obviously,

1909
01:50:28,160 --> 01:50:31,640
Speaker 1: we tend to associate the term bullying with the schoolyard,

1910
01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:35,840
Speaker 1: not because that's the only place that bullying happens, mind you,

1911
01:50:36,680 --> 01:50:40,400
Speaker 1: but because that's where many of us first encounter, engage in,

1912
01:50:41,200 --> 01:50:45,080
Speaker 1: or have to fight off bullying ourselves. But bullying does

1913
01:50:45,160 --> 01:50:49,200
Speaker 1: not magically disappear when you graduate from school, and it

1914
01:50:49,320 --> 01:50:53,000
Speaker 1: has never ever been a problem that only afflicts school

1915
01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:57,559
Speaker 1: age kids and young adults. Anywhere there is a real

1916
01:50:57,920 --> 01:51:01,320
Speaker 1: or perceived imbalance of power that can be leveraged by

1917
01:51:01,360 --> 01:51:05,599
Speaker 1: one or more people over another, the potential for bullying exists,

1918
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:11,120
Speaker 1: and that very much includes the workplace. Now, there is

1919
01:51:11,200 --> 01:51:16,719
Speaker 1: no one, rigidly defined and unanimously accepted definition of workplace bullying,

1920
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:19,400
Speaker 1: and part of that has to do with the ways

1921
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:24,120
Speaker 1: that bullying is circumstantially and legally differentiated from other forms

1922
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:28,599
Speaker 1: of targeted harassment. In fact, while there are some stronger

1923
01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:32,000
Speaker 1: and broader laws in particular states, there is currently no

1924
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:37,240
Speaker 1: federal standard defining, let alone outlawing, workplace bullying if the

1925
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:41,120
Speaker 1: case does not involve harassment or discrimination of a member

1926
01:51:41,280 --> 01:51:46,759
Speaker 1: of a protected status group based on their race, color, religion, sex,

1927
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:53,240
Speaker 1: national origin, age, or disability. Protections against such targeted harassment

1928
01:51:53,360 --> 01:51:57,600
Speaker 1: or discrimination are obviously important, but the sad fact is

1929
01:51:57,720 --> 01:52:02,040
Speaker 1: they do not protect the vast majority ofvictims of workplace bullying,

1930
01:52:02,840 --> 01:52:07,439
Speaker 1: including members of those protected status groups who are being

1931
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:10,280
Speaker 1: bullied at work but can't prove that they're being singled

1932
01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:16,000
Speaker 1: out because of their race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age,

1933
01:52:16,479 --> 01:52:21,280
Speaker 1: or disability. So clearly we need to expand our understanding

1934
01:52:21,400 --> 01:52:24,640
Speaker 1: of what a hostile work environment looks like and what

1935
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:30,640
Speaker 1: protections working people need and deserve. Again, we don't have

1936
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:34,240
Speaker 1: a unanimously accepted and used definition of workplace bullying, but

1937
01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:39,080
Speaker 1: there are many common features in the various definitions. In

1938
01:52:39,160 --> 01:52:43,120
Speaker 1: the introduction to her book Surviving Bullies, Queen Bees, and

1939
01:52:43,200 --> 01:52:48,520
Speaker 1: Psychopaths in the Workplace, Patricia G. Barnes writes, quote, Workplace

1940
01:52:48,600 --> 01:52:52,920
Speaker 1: bullying is not about normal workplace conflict, petty slights, or

1941
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:56,759
Speaker 1: rude behavior. Bullying can be the equivalent of a thousand

1942
01:52:56,840 --> 01:53:01,680
Speaker 1: pinpricks that result in a mortal wound. It involves systematic

1943
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 1: and repetitive harassment over a period of time. Typically it

1944
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:11,720
Speaker 1: continues until the target is demoted, fired, or forced to quit.

1945
01:53:12,880 --> 01:53:17,599
Speaker 1: Bullying is an intentional abuse of power, usually by a boss,

1946
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:22,479
Speaker 1: sometimes by a group of mobbing co workers. End quote.

1947
01:53:23,680 --> 01:53:28,240
Speaker 1: Now another often cited definition comes from the Workplace Bullying Institute,

1948
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:30,600
Speaker 1: which is one of the sources that we link to

1949
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:34,320
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Founded twenty five years ago by

1950
01:53:34,400 --> 01:53:38,040
Speaker 1: doctors Ruth and Gary Nami, the Workplace Bullying Institute is

1951
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:42,800
Speaker 1: an invaluable resource that everyone should know and support when

1952
01:53:42,840 --> 01:53:46,280
Speaker 1: it comes to workplace bullying. As noted on their website,

1953
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:50,679
Speaker 1: the Institute remains quote the only US organization that aids

1954
01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:56,400
Speaker 1: bullied individuals, educates the public and professionals, conducts national scientific

1955
01:53:56,560 --> 01:54:01,720
Speaker 1: surveys and research, provides training for unions and systemic solutions

1956
01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:06,600
Speaker 1: like the Healthy Workplace System for organizations and employers, and

1957
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:11,120
Speaker 1: advocates for legislation like the Healthy Workplace Bill end quote.

1958
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:16,719
Speaker 1: On their website, the Workplace Bullying Institute defines workplace bullying

1959
01:54:16,880 --> 01:54:21,760
Speaker 1: as quote repeated harmful mistreatment of an employee by one

1960
01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:25,680
Speaker 1: or more employees. It is abusive conduct that takes the

1961
01:54:25,800 --> 01:54:32,280
Speaker 1: form of verbal abuse, physical and nonverbal behaviors that are threatening, intimidating,

1962
01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:37,919
Speaker 1: or humiliating, work, interference, or sabotage, or in some combination.

1963
01:54:38,640 --> 01:54:42,920
Speaker 1: End quote. Now, if you're like me, then you might

1964
01:54:43,080 --> 01:54:47,000
Speaker 1: hear a definition like this and think, well, that can't

1965
01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:50,320
Speaker 1: be right. Because that describes shit that I've seen or

1966
01:54:50,400 --> 01:54:54,000
Speaker 1: experienced or even participated in at most of the jobs

1967
01:54:54,040 --> 01:54:59,320
Speaker 1: that I've had. Okay, then that means we have two

1968
01:54:59,440 --> 01:55:03,600
Speaker 1: paths that we can choose to take here. Either, as

1969
01:55:03,640 --> 01:55:06,839
Speaker 1: we are so often encouraged to do, we can accept

1970
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:10,360
Speaker 1: this as simply the way things are, that this is

1971
01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:13,360
Speaker 1: the best we can do, and these types of issues

1972
01:55:13,400 --> 01:55:16,400
Speaker 1: are just a fact of working life, that it's not

1973
01:55:16,520 --> 01:55:19,920
Speaker 1: actually that bad and that people need to just get

1974
01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:24,640
Speaker 1: over it, get tough, and move on. Or if this

1975
01:55:24,800 --> 01:55:28,640
Speaker 1: definition of workplace bullying describes circumstances that most of us

1976
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:32,160
Speaker 1: have witnessed or experienced in different jobs that we've had,

1977
01:55:33,040 --> 01:55:36,440
Speaker 1: then we can sit down together and acknowledge that we've

1978
01:55:36,480 --> 01:55:39,720
Speaker 1: got a really big problem on our hands. And that

1979
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:43,440
Speaker 1: is certainly the conclusion to draw from a landmark twenty

1980
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:47,000
Speaker 1: twenty one survey which was commissioned by the Workplace Bullying

1981
01:55:47,120 --> 01:55:52,680
Speaker 1: Institute and conducted by Zogbie Analytics. The survey of two

1982
01:55:52,800 --> 01:55:56,920
Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen adult Americans, including a subset of seven

1983
01:55:57,040 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty seven employed Americans, was calibrated to be

1984
01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:05,520
Speaker 1: demographically representative of the US population writ large in terms

1985
01:56:05,560 --> 01:56:11,160
Speaker 1: of factors like race, gender, age, and region. The results

1986
01:56:11,200 --> 01:56:14,920
Speaker 1: show what the Workplace Bullying Institute describes as an epidemic

1987
01:56:15,160 --> 01:56:18,640
Speaker 1: that can no longer be denied, with forty nine percent

1988
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:23,000
Speaker 1: of adult Americans being affected in some way by workplace bullying,

1989
01:56:23,720 --> 01:56:27,440
Speaker 1: which includes those who have experienced it, those who have

1990
01:56:27,600 --> 01:56:31,960
Speaker 1: witnessed it, and those who have instigated it. According to

1991
01:56:32,040 --> 01:56:35,920
Speaker 1: the survey, thirty percent of adult Americans say they are

1992
01:56:36,040 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 1: currently being bullied or have experienced bullying at work, and

1993
01:56:40,040 --> 01:56:42,400
Speaker 1: that number jumps up to thirty nine percent for the

1994
01:56:42,520 --> 01:56:47,120
Speaker 1: currently employed Americans who were surveyed, thirty four percent of

1995
01:56:47,200 --> 01:56:50,760
Speaker 1: the adult population say they are unaware that workplace bullying

1996
01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:54,240
Speaker 1: is an issue. Twenty three percent say they are aware

1997
01:56:54,800 --> 01:56:58,760
Speaker 1: but have no experience with it. For employed Americans, though,

1998
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:03,440
Speaker 1: sixty one one percent are affected by workplace bullying and

1999
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:07,920
Speaker 1: seventy three percent are aware of the problem. That's not

2000
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:13,200
Speaker 1: a small, insignificant problem. That's a lot of the working population.

2001
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:17,480
Speaker 1: And the results also show that instances of bullying have

2002
01:57:17,560 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 1: actually increased in recent years with the expansion of remote work.

2003
01:57:23,360 --> 01:57:27,120
Speaker 1: Even back in two thousand and three, an article for

2004
01:57:27,240 --> 01:57:31,520
Speaker 1: the British Medical Journal or BMJ by Brian R. McAvoy

2005
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:36,600
Speaker 1: and John Murtaugh describes workplace bullying as quote a silent epidemic.

2006
01:57:37,280 --> 01:57:41,640
Speaker 1: As they write, quote, a deadly combination of economic rationalism,

2007
01:57:42,400 --> 01:57:47,840
Speaker 1: increasing competition, downsizing, and the current fashion for tough, dynamic,

2008
01:57:48,320 --> 01:57:51,720
Speaker 1: macho management styles have created a culture in which bullying

2009
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:59,720
Speaker 1: can thrive, producing toxic workplaces. Such workplaces perpetuate dysfunction, fear, shame,

2010
01:58:00,280 --> 01:58:04,680
Speaker 1: and embarrassment, intimidating those who dare to speak out, and

2011
01:58:04,840 --> 01:58:10,640
Speaker 1: nurturing a silent epidemic end quote. Now what's especially and

2012
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:14,800
Speaker 1: heartbreakingly telling about the silent part of this epidemic is

2013
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:19,600
Speaker 1: that on one side, it's an enforced silence, because victims

2014
01:58:19,640 --> 01:58:22,600
Speaker 1: are bullied into keeping their mouths shut out of fear

2015
01:58:22,880 --> 01:58:27,000
Speaker 1: of more retaliation for speaking out. On the other side,

2016
01:58:27,560 --> 01:58:31,600
Speaker 1: this epidemic has been quietly boiling people alive in their

2017
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:36,640
Speaker 1: own microcosmic hells because of the cultural stigma that pushes

2018
01:58:36,760 --> 01:58:39,720
Speaker 1: us to think that we are somehow weak or less

2019
01:58:39,840 --> 01:58:43,800
Speaker 1: worthy for bringing it up, that people will see us

2020
01:58:43,840 --> 01:58:46,800
Speaker 1: differently or think less of us, that we should not

2021
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:51,120
Speaker 1: complain and just deal with it. For so many people,

2022
01:58:51,920 --> 01:58:56,240
Speaker 1: for so many years, even to this day, that stigma

2023
01:58:56,400 --> 01:59:00,040
Speaker 1: has made us collectively unwilling to acknowledge workplace bowling and

2024
01:59:00,120 --> 01:59:04,600
Speaker 1: it's happening to others or ourselves, even when it's happening

2025
01:59:04,640 --> 01:59:09,560
Speaker 1: all around us, And yet for being such a prevalent problem,

2026
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:12,919
Speaker 1: it wasn't really until the early nineties that we developed

2027
01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 1: a popularly accepted language for discussing the scourge of workplace bullying.

2028
01:59:19,240 --> 01:59:21,800
Speaker 1: While it was by no means the first or only

2029
01:59:21,880 --> 01:59:26,400
Speaker 1: study to address the subject, Andrea Adams's nineteen ninety two

2030
01:59:26,560 --> 01:59:30,240
Speaker 1: book Bullying at Work certainly became one of the most canonical,

2031
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:34,200
Speaker 1: and the response to the testimonies and descriptions of workplace

2032
01:59:34,280 --> 01:59:38,080
Speaker 1: bullying in Adams's book was enormous for the time. In

2033
01:59:38,200 --> 01:59:41,960
Speaker 1: the days before social media, which has made our mass

2034
01:59:42,080 --> 01:59:47,560
Speaker 1: reactions to stuff way more instantaneous and visible, many readers

2035
01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:53,160
Speaker 1: saw and heard in those testimonies not some distant clinical

2036
01:59:53,240 --> 01:59:57,240
Speaker 1: condition or depictions of exceptional horrors that they could never

2037
01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:02,520
Speaker 1: imagine happening too or near them. Instead, what they saw

2038
02:00:03,360 --> 02:00:06,959
Speaker 1: was as brutal and shocking as it was unnervingly familiar.

2039
02:00:08,240 --> 02:00:11,960
Speaker 1: Many saw, perhaps for the first time, that they were

2040
02:00:12,040 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 1: not alone in experiencing or witnessing what others were describing

2041
02:00:16,320 --> 02:00:20,400
Speaker 1: In Adams's book, and they saw it in human terms

2042
02:00:21,280 --> 02:00:25,000
Speaker 1: through the stories of regular people like them, and those

2043
02:00:25,080 --> 02:00:29,720
Speaker 1: stories made their own pains and fears and resentments more real,

2044
02:00:30,640 --> 02:00:35,000
Speaker 1: less contained to their own heads, more connected to the

2045
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:39,880
Speaker 1: struggle of others, and their once quiet individual pain got

2046
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:44,160
Speaker 1: louder as part of a collective chorus demanding recognition of

2047
02:00:44,240 --> 02:00:48,640
Speaker 1: the problem, followed by real solutions. And we still have

2048
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:50,920
Speaker 1: a long way to go to make real progress there.

2049
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:54,600
Speaker 1: That's what I hope to do with the remaining time

2050
02:00:54,720 --> 02:00:57,840
Speaker 1: that we have. I want to show you the human

2051
02:00:57,920 --> 02:01:02,480
Speaker 1: stakes here, or rather, I don't want to suggest we

2052
02:01:02,600 --> 02:01:05,840
Speaker 1: don't already know what and who is at stake here.

2053
02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:09,080
Speaker 1: But I think it's safe to say that we slip

2054
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:14,480
Speaker 1: into this state of resignation where we get comfortable with

2055
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:18,600
Speaker 1: putting it out of sight as much as possible. And

2056
02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:23,680
Speaker 1: that's understandable. It hurts to look at this stuff. But

2057
02:01:23,800 --> 02:01:27,480
Speaker 1: the problem is getting worse and we can't ignore it.

2058
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:31,120
Speaker 1: We can't ignore the fact that increasingly more of us

2059
02:01:31,160 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 1: are getting viciously ground down and abused in toxic and

2060
02:01:35,360 --> 02:01:40,440
Speaker 1: unsafe work environments. But here's the thing, this is a

2061
02:01:40,600 --> 02:01:44,640
Speaker 1: fixable problem if we don't look away from the rampant

2062
02:01:44,720 --> 02:01:48,800
Speaker 1: pain inflicted by workplace bullying. If we stop judging and

2063
02:01:48,880 --> 02:01:52,160
Speaker 1: start looking out for one another, if we have each

2064
02:01:52,200 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 1: other's backs, if we raise our voices and fight for

2065
02:01:56,160 --> 02:02:00,440
Speaker 1: change together, we can fix this. If you are able,

2066
02:02:01,120 --> 02:02:03,040
Speaker 1: I want to ask you to join me in looking

2067
02:02:03,120 --> 02:02:06,400
Speaker 1: head on at this problem and the disastrous and even

2068
02:02:06,480 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 1: deadly impacts it can have for victims. One of the

2069
02:02:10,720 --> 02:02:14,120
Speaker 1: first things to understand is that bullying can happen anywhere

2070
02:02:14,760 --> 02:02:19,080
Speaker 1: to anyone, even in professional sports leagues with the toughest

2071
02:02:19,120 --> 02:02:23,080
Speaker 1: guys in the world. Take the high profile case from

2072
02:02:23,080 --> 02:02:27,440
Speaker 1: a few years ago a professional offensive lineman Richie Incognito

2073
02:02:27,880 --> 02:02:30,280
Speaker 1: and Jonathan Martin when they were both playing for the

2074
02:02:30,400 --> 02:02:34,840
Speaker 1: NFL's Miami Dolphins. The sports world was shocked when an

2075
02:02:34,920 --> 02:02:38,320
Speaker 1: investigative report released by the NFL showed that Martin was

2076
02:02:38,400 --> 02:02:42,440
Speaker 1: subjected to a pattern of harassment on the team at

2077
02:02:42,520 --> 02:02:46,720
Speaker 1: the hands of Incognito and in fellow linemen John Jerry

2078
02:02:46,840 --> 02:02:52,520
Speaker 1: and Mike Pouncey, including racial slurs, horrifically graphics, sexual threats

2079
02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:56,839
Speaker 1: and taunts about Martin's mother and sister, and incessant hazing

2080
02:02:56,920 --> 02:03:01,360
Speaker 1: that went well beyond the standard locker room Joshing. While

2081
02:03:01,400 --> 02:03:06,000
Speaker 1: Martin was the primary target, the report also detailed routine

2082
02:03:06,120 --> 02:03:10,160
Speaker 1: bullying of another player and even an assistant trainer with

2083
02:03:10,280 --> 02:03:16,240
Speaker 1: the team. Now, in our culture, professional athletes like Incognito

2084
02:03:16,360 --> 02:03:20,720
Speaker 1: and Martin really exist and appear to us as so

2085
02:03:21,080 --> 02:03:25,400
Speaker 1: superhumanly different that they almost become less human to us.

2086
02:03:26,360 --> 02:03:31,200
Speaker 1: We see them as invincible, both physically and mentally, no

2087
02:03:31,320 --> 02:03:36,080
Speaker 1: matter how much heckling online or in person gets hurled

2088
02:03:36,120 --> 02:03:40,000
Speaker 1: their way as they brutalize their bodies for our entertainment

2089
02:03:40,080 --> 02:03:44,640
Speaker 1: week in week out. But like many of us, they

2090
02:03:44,760 --> 02:03:49,400
Speaker 1: too can suffer from emotional and physical distress from a

2091
02:03:49,520 --> 02:03:54,160
Speaker 1: pattern of workplace harassment, just like Jonathan Martin did in Miami.

2092
02:03:55,480 --> 02:03:59,080
Speaker 1: Martin left the team in October of twenty thirteen and

2093
02:03:59,240 --> 02:04:03,280
Speaker 1: checked into a schiatric facility. He officially retired from the

2094
02:04:03,400 --> 02:04:07,040
Speaker 1: NFL in twenty fifteen, and made headlines in the following

2095
02:04:07,160 --> 02:04:10,400
Speaker 1: years for social media posts that showed he was still

2096
02:04:10,480 --> 02:04:14,560
Speaker 1: dealing with severe ailments to his mental health. In a

2097
02:04:14,600 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one interview with New York Times, Martin said

2098
02:04:19,120 --> 02:04:23,640
Speaker 1: that therapy and medication have helped control his depression, anxiety,

2099
02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:27,839
Speaker 1: and mood swings, but that he had made the decision

2100
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:31,040
Speaker 1: to donate his brain to CTE research in the future

2101
02:04:31,680 --> 02:04:34,400
Speaker 1: to determine if head trauma contributed to the mental health

2102
02:04:34,440 --> 02:04:39,320
Speaker 1: struggles that he has lived with. Martin's case was shocking

2103
02:04:39,440 --> 02:04:42,200
Speaker 1: for many, but the fact that it got so much

2104
02:04:42,280 --> 02:04:45,880
Speaker 1: media attention forced a lot of us to recognize that

2105
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:48,960
Speaker 1: there was perhaps a lot that we didn't know about

2106
02:04:49,000 --> 02:04:52,200
Speaker 1: the problem of workplace bullying, what it can look like,

2107
02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:56,720
Speaker 1: the people it can affect, and how severe those effects

2108
02:04:56,800 --> 02:05:01,280
Speaker 1: can be. Sadly, most instant Stan says of workplace bullying

2109
02:05:01,400 --> 02:05:04,440
Speaker 1: don't get that kind of attention, and that has certainly

2110
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:07,800
Speaker 1: been the case, and that has certainly been true in

2111
02:05:07,880 --> 02:05:12,400
Speaker 1: the case of Vivian Barrett. Vivian Barrett began working as

2112
02:05:12,440 --> 02:05:16,080
Speaker 1: a library technician in the alban o'cun Library and Gallery

2113
02:05:16,560 --> 02:05:19,920
Speaker 1: at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County in two thousand

2114
02:05:19,960 --> 02:05:23,680
Speaker 1: and nine. It was a good job, and Vivian was

2115
02:05:24,160 --> 02:05:27,440
Speaker 1: rightly proud of herself to have it, as her parents,

2116
02:05:27,520 --> 02:05:31,400
Speaker 1: Beth and Jack Sweeney told reporters for unbc's student newspaper,

2117
02:05:31,480 --> 02:05:35,320
Speaker 1: The Retriever Quote, as Vivian found the library and a

2118
02:05:35,400 --> 02:05:39,000
Speaker 1: place to work, she got excited about that finding the

2119
02:05:39,120 --> 02:05:42,560
Speaker 1: library was really healthy for her and good for her

2120
02:05:43,120 --> 02:05:48,160
Speaker 1: end quote. A student at UMBC told reporters that Barrett

2121
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:51,760
Speaker 1: was quote the first trans woman with a career that

2122
02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:55,360
Speaker 1: I ever met end quote, and they expressed that they

2123
02:05:55,480 --> 02:06:00,560
Speaker 1: really wanted to get to know her better. Unfortunately, tragically

2124
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:05,120
Speaker 1: they were not able to do that. Everything changed in

2125
02:06:05,200 --> 02:06:08,440
Speaker 1: the fall of twenty fifteen when the library hired a

2126
02:06:08,520 --> 02:06:12,040
Speaker 1: circulation manager by the name of Paula Langley, who became

2127
02:06:12,160 --> 02:06:17,880
Speaker 1: Barrett's supervisor. According to a trove of formal grievance filings,

2128
02:06:18,440 --> 02:06:23,360
Speaker 1: coworker testimonies, complaints filed with the university by Vivian, and

2129
02:06:23,480 --> 02:06:27,080
Speaker 1: posts on her social media, all of which were reviewed

2130
02:06:27,120 --> 02:06:30,480
Speaker 1: by the editorial team of the student newspaper, who deserve

2131
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:34,560
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of credit for their reporting. Barrett's situation

2132
02:06:34,680 --> 02:06:38,080
Speaker 1: at work deteriorated quickly after her new manager came on

2133
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:44,040
Speaker 1: as Morgan Casey, Grace reeb and Isabel Taylor Wright quote.

2134
02:06:44,880 --> 02:06:49,760
Speaker 1: Throughout the following year, Barrett expressed feeling discriminated against by Langley.

2135
02:06:50,600 --> 02:06:53,800
Speaker 1: Multiple former staff members report that Langley called Barrett by

2136
02:06:53,840 --> 02:06:57,360
Speaker 1: her dead name, the name of a transgender person, the

2137
02:06:57,480 --> 02:07:00,200
Speaker 1: name a transgender person is assigned at birth but no

2138
02:07:00,320 --> 02:07:04,800
Speaker 1: longer uses after they transition over the intercom at the library,

2139
02:07:04,920 --> 02:07:09,440
Speaker 1: and regularly misgendered her in day to day activities. Quote.

2140
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:13,400
Speaker 1: Langley didn't like the fact that Vivian transitioned. She didn't

2141
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:17,760
Speaker 1: agree with that, said Perry Alexander, former AOK Library evening

2142
02:07:17,840 --> 02:07:21,360
Speaker 1: and weekend shift supervisor, in a recent interview with The Retriever.

2143
02:07:22,600 --> 02:07:26,200
Speaker 1: Langley did everything in her power to clean out Barrett's position,

2144
02:07:26,360 --> 02:07:31,680
Speaker 1: he said, beyond misgendering and dead naming Barrett. Former AOK

2145
02:07:31,920 --> 02:07:36,360
Speaker 1: Library employees stated that Langley actively removed responsibilities from Barrett

2146
02:07:36,720 --> 02:07:40,040
Speaker 1: and would not promote her. Quote. Towards the end of

2147
02:07:40,120 --> 02:07:43,040
Speaker 1: her career, Barrett and I had talks about how she

2148
02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:47,280
Speaker 1: believed Paula thought she was stupid and how she made

2149
02:07:47,320 --> 02:07:50,760
Speaker 1: her feel useless, and talked about how she didn't respect

2150
02:07:50,800 --> 02:07:55,520
Speaker 1: her being transgender, said Alexander in a twenty nineteen personal statement.

2151
02:07:56,560 --> 02:07:59,520
Speaker 1: Having worked at the AOK Library for forty years before

2152
02:07:59,600 --> 02:08:03,360
Speaker 1: retiring in twenty twenty one, he knew the library and

2153
02:08:03,480 --> 02:08:08,280
Speaker 1: its staff well, including Barrett. In his twenty nineteen statement,

2154
02:08:08,760 --> 02:08:13,840
Speaker 1: Alexander stated Barrett felt quote bullied and discriminated against by Paula,

2155
02:08:14,480 --> 02:08:18,080
Speaker 1: and had expressed this to the library administration and campus

2156
02:08:18,120 --> 02:08:23,560
Speaker 1: officials end quote. Vivian's cries for help were not heated.

2157
02:08:24,680 --> 02:08:28,480
Speaker 1: She worked to build a discrimination case against Langley, all

2158
02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:32,040
Speaker 1: while desperately pushing to be transferred to the gallery department,

2159
02:08:32,520 --> 02:08:36,440
Speaker 1: where she hoped she could find safe harbor. The transfer

2160
02:08:36,520 --> 02:08:39,960
Speaker 1: didn't happen. After hearing that she would not be able

2161
02:08:40,040 --> 02:08:43,800
Speaker 1: to transfer departments, Vivian posted a status update on her

2162
02:08:43,840 --> 02:08:48,840
Speaker 1: personal Facebook on October twelfth, twenty sixteen, which read, in

2163
02:08:49,000 --> 02:08:52,560
Speaker 1: part quote, I have to continue to suffer under a

2164
02:08:52,640 --> 02:08:56,080
Speaker 1: psychotic manager who hates me for no apparent reason, but

2165
02:08:56,200 --> 02:09:02,440
Speaker 1: it's definitely not discrimination according to the higher upsote. Later

2166
02:09:02,560 --> 02:09:06,800
Speaker 1: that same night, Vivian posted another status update. It was

2167
02:09:06,840 --> 02:09:10,440
Speaker 1: a suicide note. She was found dead later that night.

2168
02:09:12,160 --> 02:09:16,000
Speaker 1: The university did eventually investigate complaints made by Barrett and

2169
02:09:16,200 --> 02:09:20,680
Speaker 1: other library employees who filed grievances against Langley, even hiring

2170
02:09:20,680 --> 02:09:24,720
Speaker 1: an outside law firm to objectively assess the alleged abuses.

2171
02:09:25,720 --> 02:09:29,040
Speaker 1: The conclusion of their assessment was quote that the supervisor

2172
02:09:29,120 --> 02:09:32,360
Speaker 1: had not engaged in intentional or malicious conduct toward Vivian,

2173
02:09:32,920 --> 02:09:35,920
Speaker 1: nor had she discriminated against Vivian based on her transgender

2174
02:09:36,040 --> 02:09:40,840
Speaker 1: identity end quote. Students on campus and members of the

2175
02:09:41,080 --> 02:09:44,040
Speaker 1: Justice for viv coalition have questioned the accuracy of the

2176
02:09:44,120 --> 02:09:49,080
Speaker 1: university's commission investigation, and they have renewed calls for transparency

2177
02:09:49,640 --> 02:09:57,080
Speaker 1: and accountability. Bullying can take many forms, and again I

2178
02:09:57,200 --> 02:10:02,840
Speaker 1: stress that it can happen anywhere if the conditions are right.

2179
02:10:03,960 --> 02:10:06,480
Speaker 1: In a recent interview that I did at The Real News,

2180
02:10:06,560 --> 02:10:10,480
Speaker 1: for instance, I spoke with John Hogseeat, an iron worker

2181
02:10:10,640 --> 02:10:13,200
Speaker 1: and one of a number of former employees at G

2182
02:10:13,320 --> 02:10:16,520
Speaker 1: and D Integrated, who was laid off in a suspected

2183
02:10:16,600 --> 02:10:20,960
Speaker 1: act of retaliation by the company after workers voted to unionize,

2184
02:10:21,720 --> 02:10:26,200
Speaker 1: an infuriating story that was recently thankfully covered here at

2185
02:10:26,280 --> 02:10:30,960
Speaker 1: Breaking Points. In September of last year, John and a

2186
02:10:31,040 --> 02:10:34,040
Speaker 1: supermajority of his co workers at G and D Integrated,

2187
02:10:34,440 --> 02:10:38,720
Speaker 1: which is a transportation, logistics, warehousing, and supply chain services

2188
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:43,520
Speaker 1: company in central Illinois, marched on their boss together to

2189
02:10:43,640 --> 02:10:48,760
Speaker 1: demand recognition of their union. Their demands were not met. Then,

2190
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:52,240
Speaker 1: workers filed for a union election with the National Labor

2191
02:10:52,280 --> 02:10:56,560
Speaker 1: Relations Board and voted overwhelmingly in favor of unionizing with

2192
02:10:56,640 --> 02:11:01,120
Speaker 1: the Ironworkers Union in October, and as John details in

2193
02:11:01,160 --> 02:11:05,000
Speaker 1: our interview, given the dangerous and high stakes nature of

2194
02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:07,400
Speaker 1: the work that he and his coworkers did at G

2195
02:11:07,560 --> 02:11:11,520
Speaker 1: and D, their main concern in fighting to unionize was

2196
02:11:11,600 --> 02:11:19,000
Speaker 1: workplace safety. Take a listen us us guys. We stick together,

2197
02:11:21,000 --> 02:11:24,440
Speaker 1: We look out for each other. It was that's the

2198
02:11:24,520 --> 02:11:31,080
Speaker 1: strongest bunch of guys I've ever worked with, and for

2199
02:11:31,240 --> 02:11:34,440
Speaker 1: something to for like the safety issues that we had,

2200
02:11:36,920 --> 02:11:39,480
Speaker 1: it would be hell to have somebody die over that.

2201
02:11:41,480 --> 02:11:46,160
Speaker 1: And they wouldn't. They wouldn't even look at it. They wouldn't,

2202
02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:53,200
Speaker 1: they didn't care. And that that was the main thing

2203
02:11:53,360 --> 02:11:57,280
Speaker 1: for us going union. And I mean a lot of us.

2204
02:11:57,640 --> 02:12:00,320
Speaker 1: When I worked at Caterpillar, there's a lot of us

2205
02:12:00,360 --> 02:12:03,640
Speaker 1: two that stuck together, but not not like the guys

2206
02:12:03,720 --> 02:12:12,320
Speaker 1: we had here. And that's the main thing for you

2207
02:12:12,640 --> 02:12:15,680
Speaker 1: right there, When people stick together like that. You can

2208
02:12:15,800 --> 02:12:19,200
Speaker 1: hear in John's voice and you can see in his

2209
02:12:19,440 --> 02:12:23,240
Speaker 1: eyes how much that shop floor brotherhood means to him

2210
02:12:23,600 --> 02:12:26,840
Speaker 1: and his co workers. They looked out for each other,

2211
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:31,800
Speaker 1: they stuck together, they trusted each other, and they didn't

2212
02:12:31,840 --> 02:12:34,760
Speaker 1: want to see anyone get hurt and not be able

2213
02:12:34,800 --> 02:12:40,120
Speaker 1: to go home to their families, but management contemptuously waved

2214
02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:44,960
Speaker 1: away their concerns and their rights for that matter, almost

2215
02:12:45,200 --> 02:12:48,080
Speaker 1: immediately after they made their desire for a union. Known

2216
02:12:48,800 --> 02:12:52,480
Speaker 1: workers at gen D Integrated reported retaliation from the company,

2217
02:12:53,080 --> 02:12:58,080
Speaker 1: including surveillance, interrogation, and threats of closing down the shop

2218
02:12:58,200 --> 02:13:02,920
Speaker 1: in response to the union drive, which is illegal. Since

2219
02:13:03,000 --> 02:13:07,240
Speaker 1: that time, workers and union representatives have filed a staggering

2220
02:13:07,520 --> 02:13:11,680
Speaker 1: number of unfair labor practice charges against the company. At

2221
02:13:11,720 --> 02:13:13,760
Speaker 1: the time of our interview, that number was around one

2222
02:13:13,840 --> 02:13:17,240
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty and G and D has so far

2223
02:13:17,440 --> 02:13:21,520
Speaker 1: denied any wrongdoing on its part. But here's the thing.

2224
02:13:22,600 --> 02:13:25,920
Speaker 1: Retaliation also took the form of what I would call

2225
02:13:26,080 --> 02:13:30,720
Speaker 1: bullying from management. Just listen to John here talk about

2226
02:13:30,800 --> 02:13:34,600
Speaker 1: the ways that a certain manager would openly discipline workers

2227
02:13:34,680 --> 02:13:38,880
Speaker 1: by weaponizing personal information and throwing it out like chum

2228
02:13:39,000 --> 02:13:41,640
Speaker 1: to everyone else on the shop floor in an effort

2229
02:13:41,720 --> 02:13:46,080
Speaker 1: to isolate and alienate people from one another. I know

2230
02:13:46,320 --> 02:13:52,240
Speaker 1: because they told me when I had a little trouble sometime.

2231
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:57,880
Speaker 1: I was drinking a lot and I missed a couple

2232
02:13:57,960 --> 02:14:03,160
Speaker 1: days word whatever. But he was like, well, he ain't

2233
02:14:03,160 --> 02:14:05,680
Speaker 1: gonna be able to drink like that if he ain't

2234
02:14:05,800 --> 02:14:09,640
Speaker 1: working here. You know, it's just he goes out there

2235
02:14:09,680 --> 02:14:13,760
Speaker 1: and you know, sly, sly ways of saying personal stuff

2236
02:14:13,800 --> 02:14:18,560
Speaker 1: to people, and then just like with uh Evan and

2237
02:14:18,600 --> 02:14:22,040
Speaker 1: all them about his medical stuff and all that. It

2238
02:14:22,280 --> 02:14:25,560
Speaker 1: just sly ways of saying stuff about people's personal stuff

2239
02:14:25,600 --> 02:14:30,560
Speaker 1: that nobody needs to know about. And then he's just

2240
02:14:33,040 --> 02:14:36,600
Speaker 1: he's like a really vindictive type of guy. He's if

2241
02:14:36,640 --> 02:14:45,080
Speaker 1: he I say it, if he's got a little thing

2242
02:14:45,240 --> 02:14:49,040
Speaker 1: for you, he'll start putting like little rumors out and

2243
02:14:49,080 --> 02:14:54,320
Speaker 1: stuff like that and then get people talking and then

2244
02:14:54,920 --> 02:14:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, he'll he'll say something like he told me

2245
02:14:58,360 --> 02:15:01,640
Speaker 1: this about you, and I guess you know, a little

2246
02:15:01,680 --> 02:15:10,480
Speaker 1: fight's going. Just stupid. Yeah, yeah, no management should be

2247
02:15:10,600 --> 02:15:14,560
Speaker 1: like that. Iron Worker organizer Vince d. Dinado also told

2248
02:15:14,640 --> 02:15:17,040
Speaker 1: me that workers at G and D tried to go

2249
02:15:17,160 --> 02:15:20,680
Speaker 1: to HR with their concerns and when they did, they

2250
02:15:20,720 --> 02:15:23,480
Speaker 1: were told that what they said would be in confidence.

2251
02:15:24,320 --> 02:15:28,080
Speaker 1: Then later that same day, the manager was out on

2252
02:15:28,160 --> 02:15:30,480
Speaker 1: the floor giving people ship for what they said to

2253
02:15:30,720 --> 02:15:35,879
Speaker 1: HR supposedly in confidence. Again, I'm saying this for myself.

2254
02:15:36,600 --> 02:15:39,000
Speaker 1: This may not be the word that John or many

2255
02:15:39,040 --> 02:15:43,160
Speaker 1: others would use, but I would call that bullying, and

2256
02:15:43,280 --> 02:15:46,919
Speaker 1: maybe that word just has taken on too much cultural

2257
02:15:47,000 --> 02:15:50,320
Speaker 1: baggage for us to use it, you know, to properly

2258
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:54,720
Speaker 1: communicate the seriousness of what we're talking about here, because

2259
02:15:54,760 --> 02:15:58,280
Speaker 1: what we're ultimately talking about with these cases is abuse,

2260
02:15:59,320 --> 02:16:03,160
Speaker 1: and it's effect a lot of us. We're talking about people,

2261
02:16:03,920 --> 02:16:07,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people, people like you and me, being

2262
02:16:07,920 --> 02:16:12,520
Speaker 1: abused at work every day, every shift, even for years,

2263
02:16:12,880 --> 02:16:18,040
Speaker 1: without recourse, And that bullying can be done for many

2264
02:16:18,080 --> 02:16:22,920
Speaker 1: different reasons, but the methods are often very consistent. You

2265
02:16:23,120 --> 02:16:25,960
Speaker 1: are a group of people team up to make life

2266
02:16:26,080 --> 02:16:30,160
Speaker 1: hell for someone or so many people below you. You

2267
02:16:30,320 --> 02:16:35,160
Speaker 1: humiliate them, you coerce them, you corner them, You make

2268
02:16:35,240 --> 02:16:38,520
Speaker 1: them feel like they have nowhere to turn to. You

2269
02:16:38,640 --> 02:16:41,520
Speaker 1: make others fear what will happen to them if they

2270
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:46,039
Speaker 1: step in and say something. Maybe you just really don't

2271
02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:50,280
Speaker 1: like someone and you want to make them hurt. Maybe

2272
02:16:50,320 --> 02:16:52,360
Speaker 1: you want to make sure that they don't advance in

2273
02:16:52,440 --> 02:16:55,640
Speaker 1: their career instead of you, or maybe you want to

2274
02:16:55,720 --> 02:16:59,280
Speaker 1: keep workers broken and pliable so that you can better

2275
02:16:59,360 --> 02:17:04,039
Speaker 1: exploit them. In the case of G and D Integrated SE,

2276
02:17:04,640 --> 02:17:07,920
Speaker 1: we see how management abused workers on a daily basis

2277
02:17:08,520 --> 02:17:12,040
Speaker 1: to punish them for exercising their right to unionize and

2278
02:17:12,240 --> 02:17:17,039
Speaker 1: get a fair contract. And then, after months of torture,

2279
02:17:17,879 --> 02:17:21,960
Speaker 1: on Tuesday, March first, twenty twenty two, G and D

2280
02:17:22,560 --> 02:17:25,400
Speaker 1: tapped everyone on the shoulder and laid off the vast

2281
02:17:25,480 --> 02:17:28,800
Speaker 1: majority of workers at the Morton, Illinois facility in a

2282
02:17:28,840 --> 02:17:33,640
Speaker 1: suspected act of retaliation. The iron workers are continuing to

2283
02:17:33,760 --> 02:17:36,880
Speaker 1: fight to hold G and D accountable, but things are

2284
02:17:36,920 --> 02:17:42,959
Speaker 1: moving slowly through the NLRB. Lastly, I want to tell

2285
02:17:42,959 --> 02:17:45,000
Speaker 1: you about a story that is very close to my heart.

2286
02:17:46,280 --> 02:17:50,120
Speaker 1: Back in September, for my podcast Working People, in what

2287
02:17:50,440 --> 02:17:54,880
Speaker 1: was inarguably the hardest conversation that I've ever recorded, I

2288
02:17:55,000 --> 02:17:59,040
Speaker 1: interviewed the family of Evans Seifried, a twenty year dedicated

2289
02:17:59,120 --> 02:18:02,400
Speaker 1: worker at an o'hi io Kroger, who, according to a

2290
02:18:02,520 --> 02:18:06,320
Speaker 1: lawsuit filed by the family, was bullied by store manager

2291
02:18:06,400 --> 02:18:10,760
Speaker 1: Shannon Frazy and Joseph Pigg for months, eventually causing Evan

2292
02:18:10,879 --> 02:18:14,560
Speaker 1: to have a transient psychotic break and take his own

2293
02:18:14,640 --> 02:18:19,560
Speaker 1: life on March ninth, twenty twenty one. Kroger has refused

2294
02:18:19,600 --> 02:18:22,160
Speaker 1: to say much at all publicly or to the Seifried

2295
02:18:22,240 --> 02:18:26,000
Speaker 1: family about Evan's case. While the lawsuit is working slowly

2296
02:18:26,080 --> 02:18:29,720
Speaker 1: through the courts, and while that lawsuit is unfolding, we

2297
02:18:29,840 --> 02:18:34,240
Speaker 1: legally have to qualify these charges as alleged. All I

2298
02:18:34,360 --> 02:18:38,160
Speaker 1: will say in that regard is if you are able

2299
02:18:38,240 --> 02:18:41,680
Speaker 1: to listen to the whole interview with Evan's mom Linda,

2300
02:18:42,240 --> 02:18:46,000
Speaker 1: his dad Ken, and his brother Eric. If you are

2301
02:18:46,080 --> 02:18:50,280
Speaker 1: able to, I beg you to listen to them. I

2302
02:18:50,400 --> 02:18:54,119
Speaker 1: can't go into all the horrific details of Evan's bullying,

2303
02:18:54,680 --> 02:18:57,200
Speaker 1: you know that are laid out in the lawsuit, but

2304
02:18:57,320 --> 02:19:01,360
Speaker 1: here's a quick snapshot from Washington Poe reporter Julian Mark

2305
02:19:02,560 --> 02:19:06,640
Speaker 1: quote in a lawsuit filed in Hamilton County Court, Evan

2306
02:19:06,720 --> 02:19:11,240
Speaker 1: Seifried's family members allege his workplace, a Kroger grocery store

2307
02:19:11,280 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 1: in Milford, Ohio, is responsible for his suicide, a wrongful

2308
02:19:15,840 --> 02:19:18,640
Speaker 1: death that was the result of an alleged six month

2309
02:19:18,800 --> 02:19:23,320
Speaker 1: harassment campaign by two of his co workers. The lawsuit

2310
02:19:23,400 --> 02:19:27,320
Speaker 1: alleges the co workers sabotage Sifried at work, had people

2311
02:19:27,440 --> 02:19:31,080
Speaker 1: stock him outside of his home, and threatened to frame

2312
02:19:31,200 --> 02:19:37,000
Speaker 1: him for possessing child pornography. In October twenty twenty, as

2313
02:19:37,080 --> 02:19:40,400
Speaker 1: the country remained in the throes of the COVID nineteen pandemic,

2314
02:19:41,120 --> 02:19:44,920
Speaker 1: Cifried's life became quote a living hell. At work, the

2315
02:19:45,000 --> 02:19:49,680
Speaker 1: lawsuit claims, one of the store's supervisors allegedly began harassing

2316
02:19:49,760 --> 02:19:53,040
Speaker 1: Sifried for wearing a face mask at work and highlighted

2317
02:19:53,040 --> 02:19:56,520
Speaker 1: the difference in their political beliefs. Some of Seyfried's co

2318
02:19:56,680 --> 02:20:01,000
Speaker 1: workers allegedly began calling him Antifa, referring to a loosely

2319
02:20:01,080 --> 02:20:06,480
Speaker 1: knit group of far left activists. The supervisor also allegedly

2320
02:20:06,560 --> 02:20:11,279
Speaker 1: made several unwanted sexual advances towards Cyfried, which he reported

2321
02:20:11,680 --> 02:20:17,279
Speaker 1: with zero recourse. The lawsuit says. Soon, according to the lawsuit,

2322
02:20:17,800 --> 02:20:23,160
Speaker 1: the supervisor's harassment turned into sabotage. The lawsuit alleges the

2323
02:20:23,240 --> 02:20:28,280
Speaker 1: supervisor would intentionally leave holes in dairy department's schedules, creating

2324
02:20:28,400 --> 02:20:33,080
Speaker 1: extra work for Cyfried. Then people began following Seifried home

2325
02:20:33,160 --> 02:20:38,840
Speaker 1: from work, the lawsuit says, end quote. Here's how Evans's father,

2326
02:20:39,000 --> 02:20:44,000
Speaker 1: Ken described it to me on the podcast. Management's number

2327
02:20:44,040 --> 02:20:48,640
Speaker 1: one responsibility when it comes to their employee, above anything else,

2328
02:20:49,360 --> 02:20:53,680
Speaker 1: is to create a safe working environment. That's their number

2329
02:20:53,800 --> 02:20:59,400
Speaker 1: one responsibility in any organization. In this particular case, here

2330
02:21:00,440 --> 02:21:05,199
Speaker 1: not only the McMullan, the CEO and his management team

2331
02:21:05,760 --> 02:21:11,040
Speaker 1: not to create a safe working environment. They conspired with

2332
02:21:11,280 --> 02:21:17,439
Speaker 1: my son to create a hostile environment that was focused

2333
02:21:17,560 --> 02:21:22,800
Speaker 1: on terrorizing him. It was the exact opposite of what

2334
02:21:23,000 --> 02:21:27,640
Speaker 1: their responsibility as a management team in any company is.

2335
02:21:28,720 --> 02:21:33,600
Speaker 1: They create an environment that targeted him, and they terrorized him.

2336
02:21:33,879 --> 02:21:38,480
Speaker 1: I often refer to his sore manager, Sharon Shannon Frasey,

2337
02:21:39,240 --> 02:21:42,800
Speaker 1: as a person that had a tollbox of terror. And

2338
02:21:42,840 --> 02:21:45,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about that for a minute because

2339
02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:47,920
Speaker 1: I want to make real clear with you that this

2340
02:21:48,280 --> 02:21:53,400
Speaker 1: is not a lawsuit based on conservative versus liberal, or

2341
02:21:53,480 --> 02:22:00,840
Speaker 1: Republican versus Democrat. This is a whistleblower lawsuit. The reason

2342
02:22:00,959 --> 02:22:04,680
Speaker 1: they terrorized my son and they wanted him out of

2343
02:22:04,760 --> 02:22:09,279
Speaker 1: the company is because he would not accept a hostile

2344
02:22:09,440 --> 02:22:14,200
Speaker 1: working environment. Every time they got hostile with them or

2345
02:22:14,240 --> 02:22:17,199
Speaker 1: a co worker, he would throw up their red flag.

2346
02:22:17,560 --> 02:22:20,320
Speaker 1: He would go to the union, he would go to HR,

2347
02:22:21,040 --> 02:22:24,400
Speaker 1: he would go to line management, he would go outside

2348
02:22:24,440 --> 02:22:27,760
Speaker 1: the plant, if the store, if he could to get

2349
02:22:27,800 --> 02:22:32,760
Speaker 1: attention with the red flags. And they saw that as

2350
02:22:32,800 --> 02:22:35,120
Speaker 1: a problem. All the way from the store manager to

2351
02:22:35,240 --> 02:22:39,360
Speaker 1: the district manager. They had a person flowing up, throwing

2352
02:22:39,480 --> 02:22:43,680
Speaker 1: up too many red flags, and they wanted him gone.

2353
02:22:44,320 --> 02:22:47,119
Speaker 1: So this is a whistle blower case. It has nothing

2354
02:22:47,200 --> 02:22:51,520
Speaker 1: to do with politics because in this community here, most

2355
02:22:51,600 --> 02:22:57,280
Speaker 1: of our supporters in this community are Conservatives. They voted

2356
02:22:57,360 --> 02:23:01,120
Speaker 1: for Donald Trump and they are in our camp. They

2357
02:23:01,160 --> 02:23:04,320
Speaker 1: are behind our cause. So it has nothing to do

2358
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:08,520
Speaker 1: with politics. That has everything to do with Evan being

2359
02:23:08,640 --> 02:23:13,440
Speaker 1: a whistleblower. Evan tried to get help many times, but

2360
02:23:13,520 --> 02:23:16,080
Speaker 1: he was failed on every front by the people who

2361
02:23:16,120 --> 02:23:20,760
Speaker 1: were supposed to protect him. Kroger Regional management failed him,

2362
02:23:21,760 --> 02:23:27,560
Speaker 1: Kroger HR failed him, his union Stewart failed him, and

2363
02:23:27,680 --> 02:23:32,240
Speaker 1: because of their failures, he is no longer here and

2364
02:23:32,360 --> 02:23:34,600
Speaker 1: his family has a hole in it that can never

2365
02:23:34,720 --> 02:23:39,240
Speaker 1: be filled. Evan's story has not gotten the media attention

2366
02:23:39,400 --> 02:23:42,880
Speaker 1: it deserves, but what little attention it has received has

2367
02:23:43,000 --> 02:23:47,120
Speaker 1: often focused on the detail that his managers allegedly used

2368
02:23:47,200 --> 02:23:51,520
Speaker 1: politics to single him out, like calling Evan Antifa for

2369
02:23:51,640 --> 02:23:55,640
Speaker 1: strictly masking during COVID, But his family has been very

2370
02:23:55,760 --> 02:23:59,840
Speaker 1: clear that this was not about politics. That was just

2371
02:24:00,120 --> 02:24:04,760
Speaker 1: a wedge that evans tormentors use to isolate and alienate him,

2372
02:24:05,920 --> 02:24:09,519
Speaker 1: and the fact that neighbors and co workers and supporters

2373
02:24:09,560 --> 02:24:12,200
Speaker 1: from all sides of the political spectrum have come out

2374
02:24:12,240 --> 02:24:16,160
Speaker 1: to support the family and demand justice shows that we

2375
02:24:16,360 --> 02:24:21,200
Speaker 1: are fellow workers and neighbors and human beings first we

2376
02:24:21,280 --> 02:24:26,560
Speaker 1: are members of political camps. Second, if we remember that always,

2377
02:24:27,400 --> 02:24:30,080
Speaker 1: we can make sure that what happened to Evan never

2378
02:24:30,280 --> 02:24:35,439
Speaker 1: happens to anyone ever again. The Justice for Evan Coalition,

2379
02:24:36,360 --> 02:24:39,400
Speaker 1: a group of family, friends and supporters around the country,

2380
02:24:39,800 --> 02:24:42,720
Speaker 1: has fought valiantly to make sure that Evan's name is

2381
02:24:42,800 --> 02:24:46,800
Speaker 1: not forgotten, that Kroger is held accountable for his death,

2382
02:24:47,560 --> 02:24:51,080
Speaker 1: and that workers everywhere get the protections that they deserve.

2383
02:24:52,320 --> 02:24:55,840
Speaker 1: They have been fighting relentlessly to force Kroger executives to

2384
02:24:55,920 --> 02:25:00,520
Speaker 1: address Evan's case at next month's annual shareholders meeting, and

2385
02:25:00,600 --> 02:25:04,760
Speaker 1: they are asking people to do the same. The coalition

2386
02:25:05,120 --> 02:25:09,120
Speaker 1: and Evan's family directly attribute the conditions that led to

2387
02:25:09,200 --> 02:25:13,879
Speaker 1: Evan's death to Kroger's relentless pursuit of growth and profit

2388
02:25:14,320 --> 02:25:18,119
Speaker 1: under CEO Rodney McMullen, a man whose salary and stock

2389
02:25:18,160 --> 02:25:22,520
Speaker 1: options pay him reportedly twenty million dollars a year. They

2390
02:25:22,600 --> 02:25:25,640
Speaker 1: say that the fact that the store sales increased under

2391
02:25:25,720 --> 02:25:29,600
Speaker 1: Evan's new manager, meant that Kroger was unwilling to do

2392
02:25:29,800 --> 02:25:34,000
Speaker 1: anything about the distress that Evan and other workers experienced

2393
02:25:34,360 --> 02:25:38,240
Speaker 1: as demands for productivity just kept increasing, and Evan himself

2394
02:25:38,800 --> 02:25:41,280
Speaker 1: noted the changes in the company that he was so

2395
02:25:41,480 --> 02:25:46,720
Speaker 1: loyal to for so long, and these also these things

2396
02:25:46,800 --> 02:25:50,720
Speaker 1: also led to Kroger not stepping in, according to the family,

2397
02:25:50,959 --> 02:25:55,359
Speaker 1: to address the complaints that Evan filed complaints of harassment,

2398
02:25:56,200 --> 02:25:59,080
Speaker 1: or the complaints that he helped fellow co workers file

2399
02:25:59,520 --> 02:26:02,920
Speaker 1: when they were being harassed. And I want to end

2400
02:26:03,000 --> 02:26:08,879
Speaker 1: on that final detail because it's important. Evan was a helper.

2401
02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:14,320
Speaker 1: He was kind, He loved his family deeply, and he

2402
02:26:14,480 --> 02:26:17,560
Speaker 1: was proud of his career, and he took care of

2403
02:26:17,640 --> 02:26:22,080
Speaker 1: others as best he could. Evan's family want others to

2404
02:26:22,240 --> 02:26:26,200
Speaker 1: know this about him, and so do I, because it's

2405
02:26:26,240 --> 02:26:30,520
Speaker 1: important to remember that every single person who experiences workplace

2406
02:26:30,600 --> 02:26:34,520
Speaker 1: bullying is or was, a whole human being who is

2407
02:26:34,600 --> 02:26:37,880
Speaker 1: so much more than the needless and unjust pain that

2408
02:26:38,000 --> 02:26:42,160
Speaker 1: they endured. I want to end then by playing another

2409
02:26:42,240 --> 02:26:44,960
Speaker 1: clip from Ken Seifried as he shares with the world

2410
02:26:45,080 --> 02:26:48,080
Speaker 1: what he wants us to know about his dear son.

2411
02:26:49,200 --> 02:26:52,360
Speaker 1: He was working at Kroger at the time. He wanted

2412
02:26:52,400 --> 02:26:55,520
Speaker 1: to move back at his own apartment, so he was

2413
02:26:55,560 --> 02:26:57,960
Speaker 1: obviously old enough to do that, and he did it,

2414
02:26:59,040 --> 02:27:04,320
Speaker 1: and he survived living on his own successfully to a

2415
02:27:04,400 --> 02:27:07,800
Speaker 1: point where in his years that he spent at Kroger,

2416
02:27:07,959 --> 02:27:11,560
Speaker 1: he was able to get his own home. He was

2417
02:27:13,200 --> 02:27:16,520
Speaker 1: financed it, got it approved, got it on his own,

2418
02:27:17,280 --> 02:27:20,560
Speaker 1: and took over home ownership. And he was very proud

2419
02:27:20,600 --> 02:27:24,120
Speaker 1: of that. That he was working for a company for

2420
02:27:24,400 --> 02:27:27,680
Speaker 1: at that time for ten years, was proud of that.

2421
02:27:28,360 --> 02:27:30,920
Speaker 1: He was proud of being able to afford and have

2422
02:27:31,080 --> 02:27:35,199
Speaker 1: his own home. But what I would really like everybody

2423
02:27:35,360 --> 02:27:38,600
Speaker 1: to know about Evan is, particularly through this COVID period,

2424
02:27:39,920 --> 02:27:43,480
Speaker 1: he took care of mom and dad. He did everything

2425
02:27:43,640 --> 02:27:47,200
Speaker 1: for us. He did our shopping when we needed it.

2426
02:27:48,240 --> 02:27:53,080
Speaker 1: He visited us every week. He talked to his mom,

2427
02:27:53,480 --> 02:27:56,920
Speaker 1: if not every day, it seemed like every day for

2428
02:27:57,080 --> 02:28:00,200
Speaker 1: hours at a time. He talked to his dad a

2429
02:28:00,280 --> 02:28:04,320
Speaker 1: couple of times a week. He was there for us. Eric,

2430
02:28:04,520 --> 02:28:08,640
Speaker 1: He's the perfect word for Evan. Evan was kind, but

2431
02:28:08,800 --> 02:28:14,560
Speaker 1: he was selfless. He put everything and everyone out of himself,

2432
02:28:15,000 --> 02:28:19,040
Speaker 1: particularly his parents and his brother I couldn't think of

2433
02:28:19,080 --> 02:28:25,280
Speaker 1: a more giving, kind person that didn't have a harmful

2434
02:28:25,360 --> 02:28:28,320
Speaker 1: bone in his body that I don't think he's ever

2435
02:28:28,440 --> 02:28:33,720
Speaker 1: been in a fight in his life that deserved this

2436
02:28:33,920 --> 02:28:36,119
Speaker 1: kind of treatment that we're going to talk about later.

2437
02:28:36,840 --> 02:28:42,400
Speaker 1: It hurts to Evan Ciphered and Vivian Barrett wherever you are,

2438
02:28:43,600 --> 02:28:47,400
Speaker 1: to their families, to John hog Set and his family,

2439
02:28:48,440 --> 02:28:52,360
Speaker 1: to Jonathan Martin and his family, and to everyone out

2440
02:28:52,440 --> 02:28:55,720
Speaker 1: there who is suffering or who has suffered at work.

2441
02:28:56,560 --> 02:29:01,480
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You didn't deserve this. You don't deserve this.

2442
02:29:03,360 --> 02:29:08,480
Speaker 1: We see you, We're with you, we love you, we

2443
02:29:08,640 --> 02:29:13,440
Speaker 1: won't forget you, and we will fight for you because

2444
02:29:13,480 --> 02:29:16,760
Speaker 1: we have to fight. We have no choice but to fight.

2445
02:29:18,040 --> 02:29:23,320
Speaker 1: We cannot and must not accept what is fundamentally unacceptable.

2446
02:29:25,680 --> 02:29:28,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for watching this segment with breaking points, and

2447
02:29:29,080 --> 02:29:31,600
Speaker 1: be sure to subscribe to my news outlet, The Real News,

2448
02:29:31,720 --> 02:29:34,960
Speaker 1: with links in the show description. See you soon for

2449
02:29:35,040 --> 02:29:38,160
Speaker 1: the next edition of the Art of Class War. Take

2450
02:29:38,200 --> 02:29:42,800
Speaker 1: care of yourselves, take care of each other. Solidarity Forever