Speaker 1: Have you ever had a partner who just could not
Speaker 1: let go of their X? I'm willing to bet Daphne
Speaker 1: du Maurier did. This is Popcorn Book Club. I'm Danis Schwartz,
Speaker 1: joined as always by Jennifer Wright, Kamadunqua, Tan Tran, and
Speaker 1: Melissa Hunter, and we're continuing our conversation about the novel.
Speaker 1: Rebecca is a very sociopath thing to do. I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm so happy that my husband's going to
Speaker 1: murder me and then his life will be ruined. She
Speaker 1: knew how to arrange a party, she knew how to
Speaker 1: arrange a floral arrangement, she knew how to orchestrate a murder.
Speaker 1: I'm realizing now we didn't even talk about the plot,
Speaker 1: but there really is very little plot in one sentence.
Speaker 1: In one sentence, Uh, the second Mrs de Winter, who's
Speaker 1: the narrator we never know, start as a paid companion
Speaker 1: to an awful American in Monte Carlo. She meets this
Speaker 1: was paid by and doubt I can't wait. That really
Speaker 1: so fun. She meets uh, a handsome widower named Max
Speaker 1: to Winter, whose first wife died in a mysterious accident
Speaker 1: that no one wants to talk about. She goes back
Speaker 1: to Manderley, his ancestral home, finds it haunted by the
Speaker 1: everyone's memory of how fabulous Rebecca was. And then, as
Speaker 1: we mentioned, we find out that she was I don't
Speaker 1: want to say sociopath, but had tendencies that the lay
Speaker 1: person might call a sociopath. Uh. She and Maxim never
Speaker 1: were in love. She was a wild philanderer and had
Speaker 1: many lovers, and Mrs Danvers was loyal to her the
Speaker 1: entire time. And Max murdered her because she said she
Speaker 1: was pregnant with uh Jack's baby. But then spoiler alert twist,
Speaker 1: she wasn't actually pregnant. She was never pregnant. She had
Speaker 1: uterine cancer I believe, or cancer of some sort. And
Speaker 1: so the whole thing, she was trying to gone girl
Speaker 1: and trick Max into murdering her so at least she
Speaker 1: would go quick and then maybe Mac would get in trouble. Right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good summary. I was like, I'll just do it
Speaker 1: super fast, get it out of the way. I was
Speaker 1: just gonna say, like the whole gone girl part of it,
Speaker 1: it made me really happy that at least Rebecca got
Speaker 1: her last joke you know, and that she like died smiling.
Speaker 1: It's just so it is a very sociopath thing to do.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, it's like, I'm so happy that my
Speaker 1: husband's going to murder me and then his life will
Speaker 1: be ruined. But yeah, it was, I mean, it was
Speaker 1: very she she got it, she got hers in, she's
Speaker 1: gonna die, She's gonna go out for a little. She
Speaker 1: knew how to arrange a party, she knew how to
Speaker 1: arrange a floral arrangement, do a decorade of room. She
Speaker 1: knew how to orchestrate a murder. Side and again, like
Speaker 1: I know that the second Mrs de Winter really wants
Speaker 1: to believe that Rebecca was a sociopath, and Um and
Speaker 1: Maxim and apparently I do too, and Max I really
Speaker 1: want as this woman is associate paths. But Max a
Speaker 1: list two people that can super confirm that Rebecca was
Speaker 1: a sociopath for him, and it's Frank and it's his sister. Um.
Speaker 1: His sister does not seem to play into the idea
Speaker 1: of like Rebecca was the sociopath, we're also glad she's
Speaker 1: Dand his sister calls the second missister went about the phone.
Speaker 1: It's like she never would have committed suicide. This is crazy.
Speaker 1: You should look into it. That's not the way you
Speaker 1: behave if you think, I'm so glad this sociopaths is,
Speaker 1: but it was the sociopath. But also think they were murdered.
Speaker 1: But I still don't think they do. She deserved to
Speaker 1: be murdered. And I also think for me, it was
Speaker 1: just about Danny's description of her and made her and
Speaker 1: I think I think she hit it. Rebecca even hid
Speaker 1: it from the sister. I think the sister was sort
Speaker 1: of charmed by her public face but didn't like her
Speaker 1: because she maybe slept with her husband. She definitely went
Speaker 1: after the husband. So don't think that Beatrice was on herself.
Speaker 1: So Beatrice was sort of like I'm sure she was
Speaker 1: always like publicly charming to Beatrice, but then like Stuft
Speaker 1: with her husband said, she's like, no, I don't like her,
Speaker 1: but like she might like she sucks, but like she
Speaker 1: was always chilling. Yeah, I think Beatrice and her brother
Speaker 1: killed her. I think I don't think so. I think
Speaker 1: she's very nice. I thought I thought Beatrice was was
Speaker 1: one of the few redeeming characters in the book. Like
Speaker 1: she was very, very nice to the new Mrs Dewinter
Speaker 1: tried to like help her out whenever she could. When
Speaker 1: the whole dress thing happened, she was the only one
Speaker 1: who was like, hey girl, come on, let's take this
Speaker 1: off till out per minute. Uh. And you know we've
Speaker 1: all had that, you know, I have experienced dressing up
Speaker 1: for Halloween and becoming a bit of a mess and
Speaker 1: then your friend is helping you in contume, which is hilarious.
Speaker 1: So the thought of her like running around like in
Speaker 1: her fully culturally appropriate apple boy. But oh boy, but
Speaker 1: like that image to me is very funny to like
Speaker 1: help help a gal pal out when you're like fully
Speaker 1: in halloween costume. Is that's fun? Good job? Yeah? Oh yeah?
Speaker 1: Can we also just talk more about Mrs dan Verse,
Speaker 1: who plis? I think you accurately clocked, Wasn't you said
Speaker 1: the most interesting character in the book? Uh? Tian, what
Speaker 1: are your what are your dan Verse feelings? I mean,
Speaker 1: after after you learn that, like she clearly knows that
Speaker 1: this this very close person of her was murdered by
Speaker 1: this man. Like the fact that she is even being
Speaker 1: remotely chill about it, I'm like, she's really holding it together,
Speaker 1: Like I know she's kind of mean and cold to
Speaker 1: the Mrs the new Mrs de Winter, but I find
Speaker 1: it to be I have a question, do we think
Speaker 1: we're sure Mrs Danvers thinks it's murder or did she
Speaker 1: actually believe it was a voting accident. I think she believes.
Speaker 1: I think it's because like they talk about how Rebecca
Speaker 1: is so proficient at sailing that she like she wouldn't
Speaker 1: have had mistakes. And I also think that confirmation to
Speaker 1: me in retrospect was her having Jack come over when
Speaker 1: when Maxim was out and like make sure everyone else
Speaker 1: was out because they want to talk ship. They want
Speaker 1: to talk it and be like, yeah, she didn't. Like
Speaker 1: they want to talk about how she got murdered and
Speaker 1: what to do about it, And I think she was
Speaker 1: laying in wait, you really don't think it's that. I
Speaker 1: think mus really wants to believe that Rebecca had what
Speaker 1: would be for her a good death. U that Rebecca
Speaker 1: never wanted to grow old, she she was so strong,
Speaker 1: like the Mrs Dancrews wants to think the only thing
Speaker 1: that could conquer this indomitable woman is she talks about
Speaker 1: how like, yeah, she didn't die for a man. The
Speaker 1: scene that could take her UM, and I think, as
Speaker 1: someone who is Rebecca's mother and maybe love her UM,
Speaker 1: that's really tolerable for her. And I think she just
Speaker 1: wants to get together with jack because jack Um and
Speaker 1: Rebecca had this really close relationship, and she also had
Speaker 1: a really close relationship with Rebecca. Like the only way
Speaker 1: that they can kind of remember her is if they
Speaker 1: get together and tell stories about her, which is sad
Speaker 1: but makes perfect sense. And the reason I think all
Speaker 1: of this is because if Mrs Andrews had no one
Speaker 1: that Maxim killed her, she would have burned down that
Speaker 1: house of media, like she would not have weighted until
Speaker 1: he was all and I take it back. I also
Speaker 1: think that, like, just like you said, that monologue she's
Speaker 1: giving when she's suicide murdering the second Mrs de Winter,
Speaker 1: she makes it very clear that she thinks it was
Speaker 1: an accident. I full believe that Mrs Danvers has some
Speaker 1: sort of sexual tension with Rebecca, like that was immediately,
Speaker 1: especially in that segment where she talks about how like, oh,
Speaker 1: sex was just a game for her, it was all
Speaker 1: a game, And I'm like, oh, did you play the
Speaker 1: game and lose? Maybe I'm so sorry um. But I
Speaker 1: think that Mrs Danvers is fascinating in the art of
Speaker 1: psychological warfare in a way that is not fair to
Speaker 1: the new Mrs Winter, because it's like she went out
Speaker 1: to the battlefield wearing like her fuzzy slippers and Mrs
Speaker 1: Danvers is like a trained Amazon warrior from Greek mythology.
Speaker 1: It's not a fair fight. And I think that it's
Speaker 1: really fascinating to watch that dynamic, and it sort of
Speaker 1: mirrors the fact that there's this also uneven dynamic between
Speaker 1: Maxim and the new Mrs de Winters, and she's like
Speaker 1: at both terms. The person who's supposed to help her
Speaker 1: with the household stuff so that she can try and
Speaker 1: even out her relations with Maxim is like psychologically trying
Speaker 1: to annihilate her. And I find that dynamic really intriguing,
Speaker 1: which is why I said I think that there are
Speaker 1: some really interesting things about the story. I just did
Speaker 1: not like the way that the things were written, and
Speaker 1: so I'm excited to see the adaptations. And I think
Speaker 1: that's the thing about an adaptation. Sometimes you'll like a
Speaker 1: book and not like the movie, and something like a
Speaker 1: movie and not like a book. I will say about
Speaker 1: dan versus. One thing that I wanted to say about
Speaker 1: why I find her so fascinating is this kind of
Speaker 1: reframing of her throughout the book. And because in the
Speaker 1: beginning she is the ultimate antagonist. She's like the living,
Speaker 1: breathing version of like, this is Rebecca's home, I'm going
Speaker 1: to make your life a living hell for our narrator.
Speaker 1: And I hated her, and you know, I understood she
Speaker 1: was pissed, but she's channeling it to the wrong person. Like,
Speaker 1: if you're pissed Maxim got over Rebecca so fast, be
Speaker 1: mad at Maxim. Don't be mean to this poor girl. Uh,
Speaker 1: And that I mean and the fancy dress thing. It's
Speaker 1: like the end the day after with her like literally
Speaker 1: being like killing herself. But but then it's this whole
Speaker 1: flip of like she's realizing, you know, as Jennifer Riley
Speaker 1: point out pointed out that that Rebecca did not die
Speaker 1: on her own accord, that Maxim killed her. And it's
Speaker 1: this building mounting evidence and just this horrible, great new
Speaker 1: kind of grief for her, for this mother who like
Speaker 1: essentially mother who lost her child. And and then she
Speaker 1: becomes kind of the protagonist at the end in a
Speaker 1: weird way of like being like, oh, the system is
Speaker 1: not going to get this man, so I am going
Speaker 1: to ruin his life. And I loved that arc. Nobody
Speaker 1: treats her like a mother who lost her child, and
Speaker 1: that is infuriating to me. She from acency and people
Speaker 1: are all like, oh, dead, you will run the estate.
Speaker 1: She's clever, We'll fire her if she doesn't do a
Speaker 1: good job for you. Um No, like this, this woman
Speaker 1: is clearly clinging to Manderly because it is the last
Speaker 1: remnant of her child. That's why I think the psychological
Speaker 1: warfare is warned well from from Danny's From Danny's perspective,
Speaker 1: Max bring it on. You know her, his beloved wife,
Speaker 1: who's the most amazing person in the world dies in
Speaker 1: tragic ways. He's almost like good riddens, and then less
Speaker 1: than a year later brings home this teenage nobody to
Speaker 1: where Rebecca lived. The outrage, Yeah, I just felt like
Speaker 1: the outrage was misplaced on this for naive girl, that's like,
Speaker 1: what's going on. I'm so sorry for existing and not
Speaker 1: being mad at Maxim who like brings you don't know,
Speaker 1: you choose, Yeah, just in advance. If I die, your
Speaker 1: mysterious circumstances, and Daniel marry somebody else who was nineteen
Speaker 1: and under your burned down my fucking house. That went
Speaker 1: without saying okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, take it out on
Speaker 1: another woman, honestly, for burning down the house of any
Speaker 1: man over the age of forty that marries a woman
Speaker 1: under the age of twenty, regardless of prior relationships. Just
Speaker 1: burn it down. Just burn it. It's not normal. I
Speaker 1: don't think that I think that there's something going on there.
Speaker 1: I personally think that we should take breaks from this discussion,
Speaker 1: much like I took a break from reading the book. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're back with Popcorn book Club. On one character that
Speaker 1: we haven't mentioned yet, but who I think is also
Speaker 1: a Beatrice and it's very sweet, is Frank the property manager. Well,
Speaker 1: I love very sweet and very nice to the second
Speaker 1: Mrs de Winter. And you get the impression that Rebecca
Speaker 1: made unwanted advantage to him and he did not know
Speaker 1: how to handle it. He truly did not know. She
Speaker 1: was the most beautiful woman I bet creature. But also
Speaker 1: he was very complicit in the whole dang thing. I
Speaker 1: think he's the only one who really knew what happened.
Speaker 1: Uh oh yeah, I guess he did so. I he
Speaker 1: did cover a murder. He did. He also seems like
Speaker 1: that like the buddy of like the hot, like popular
Speaker 1: quarterback that's always like wanting to be like he wants.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I was thinking of Michael Sarah if they
Speaker 1: had made this in two thousand seven. I do like
Speaker 1: that him driving her back from the inquest after she
Speaker 1: fainted and they're both in the car, not sure if
Speaker 1: the other one knows that Maxim murdered her. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: both know that Maxim murdered this lady, and they both
Speaker 1: want him to get away with it. They have to
Speaker 1: communicate that somehow. Okay, we actually, oh my god, there's
Speaker 1: woulda be so good with the modern apptation because with
Speaker 1: like Instagram, you always know like how beautiful your new
Speaker 1: boyfriend or husband's X was. Yeah, yeah, that there was
Speaker 1: something when she when she's like, I'm just gonna go
Speaker 1: to the West Wing. I'm not gonna look, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna go. It felt like somebody like I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: check her Instagram. I'm just gonna look for one second.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go back to two thirteen. Absolutely not.
Speaker 1: That's crazy, who would do that? And just to see
Speaker 1: her body, what does it say? Oh my gosh, oh
Speaker 1: I love it her profile because just like Rebecca's if
Speaker 1: all her Instagram is just her on the boat, like
Speaker 1: it's just her on the sailing. Rebecca is a wellness
Speaker 1: but she writes. She writes thank you notes in fountain
Speaker 1: pen with like homemade baked goods that she sends everything
Speaker 1: feeling that girl. What's her name? Who started? Who founded
Speaker 1: moon Juice? Amanda shawntal Bacon's her? That's that's like. But
Speaker 1: I think fundamentally and like the aesthetic of it, I
Speaker 1: think she's like very classy like that, like the bo
Speaker 1: and the handwritten notes, and like she knows she's like
Speaker 1: a handwritten toastess. Has wonderful parties, like themed parties. She's fun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want her. I want her handwriting as a font.
Speaker 1: Like that should be a good marketing campaign for this
Speaker 1: because the way they describe it looks gorgeous. Who do
Speaker 1: we think the dan Verses in modern modern day? I
Speaker 1: think the casting is actually perfect. I think Kristin Stewart
Speaker 1: so good. She's going to be really good. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a very good one. I'm just now I'm really disappointed
Speaker 1: that and Owd plays the lady at the beginning, because
Speaker 1: she's only at the beginning and I want more and
Speaker 1: owed you know, she'll chew up the furniture. They'll just
Speaker 1: be like, all right, and Dowd, why don't you do
Speaker 1: one for fun like that, she just gets to go
Speaker 1: on some runs. Yeah, that this marriage was not gonna
Speaker 1: work out. I mean she was. She wasn't wrong, but
Speaker 1: she was wrong for the reason she wasn't wrong, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like she was being a jealous necessarily,
Speaker 1: like looking out for her and being like, hey, sweetie,
Speaker 1: I know that you don't have a mom, and I
Speaker 1: know that I've been kind of shitty in that respect,
Speaker 1: but like, don't marry a dude you met on vacation
Speaker 1: three weeks ago. That's really good everyone. Uh look, I
Speaker 1: don't know that under normal circumstancesively be though, like otherwise, okay,
Speaker 1: if this hadn't happened, No, don't marry a stranger. Don't
Speaker 1: marry you got married, Daniel, and I knew we were
Speaker 1: getting married very early on. But okay, that's but you
Speaker 1: did not marry That's that's a good one. But I
Speaker 1: didn't said I was not like a penniless wife who
Speaker 1: was being trained to be a companion, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: is not a real job. Um whose like the greatest
Speaker 1: possibility was I was gonna keep trappling with this lady
Speaker 1: and they she's gonna leave you, and they have no skills.
Speaker 1: I figured it out the modern day equivalent. Sorry, she's
Speaker 1: a personal assistant. She's a personal assistant. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a real thing. That's like, okay, yeah, well that was
Speaker 1: a thing. Then if Maxim had not been a murderer whatever,
Speaker 1: her life had been worse than even if this is
Speaker 1: like a loveless, weird marriage with housekeeper who will tell
Speaker 1: you to kill yourself. Yeah, her, like she had an
Speaker 1: option to just go to maximum. It's like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: lady is crazy. She tried to push me out away,
Speaker 1: trying to push me out a window. We have to
Speaker 1: fire her. We'll hire somebody new. She'll be good too,
Speaker 1: It'll be fine. But I think also we forgetting that,
Speaker 1: like even before until the murder thing came to light,
Speaker 1: Maxim was a terrible husband to her, terrible, but her
Speaker 1: life is terrible, and terrible has to accommodate Mrs van Hopper,
Speaker 1: who is a terrible boy and who she's very attractive
Speaker 1: to Maxim, but like, what if she then meets someone
Speaker 1: who treats her he was that bad. I think that
Speaker 1: Mrs van Hopper was like kind of a ship employer,
Speaker 1: but not in like a completely abusive way like this.
Speaker 1: I know I've been using the term psychological warfare, but
Speaker 1: I feel like Maximum is also engaging in that to
Speaker 1: some degree, in terms of like she's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: he didn't have time to say that he loved me,
Speaker 1: I'll say it later. Yeah, look a lot older than he.
Speaker 1: But Jennifer, she couldn't meet He's not the last. He
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be great way twenty years and then
Speaker 1: you wait, I'm sorry. Was that the defense? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean she could get someone else to like, and he's
Speaker 1: definitely going to Maria Murder and Jennifer Wein did talk
Speaker 1: about this, we were texting a little bit. Her devotion
Speaker 1: to Maxim is sort of similar to like a Mrs
Speaker 1: Danvers to Rebecca, Like she instantly becomes obsessed with acts
Speaker 1: and is totally on board and justifies everything he says
Speaker 1: and does in a way that is unhealthy. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's right for her because there was no alternative.
Speaker 1: But in a dream world, you stay with Mrs van
Speaker 1: Hopper and then meet a nice, normal accountant who treats
Speaker 1: you well. She was never going to be is what
Speaker 1: the book should have been. This is what the book
Speaker 1: should have been. She should have gone to New York
Speaker 1: with Mrs van Hopper, and then when she got to
Speaker 1: New York, she should have saved up all her money,
Speaker 1: left her employ gone out into the city to be
Speaker 1: a city gal in New York. And yeah, met a fabulous, wonderful,
Speaker 1: mysterious woman who was like a socialite in the New
Speaker 1: York City like hot scene named Rebecca, and she learned
Speaker 1: how to be a cool it girl from Rebecca. This
Speaker 1: is then Rebecca Mysterious. It is very gossip girl. And
Speaker 1: then Rebecca mysteriously disappears and it's about her remembering her
Speaker 1: friend Rebecca. Hey, Karama, why are you telling this very
Speaker 1: good book that you should write. Write that book, everybody.
Speaker 1: We need to cut that out, and the need to
Speaker 1: write that book from Twilight. Not that, not that it
Speaker 1: will be much better than that. But you know, I
Speaker 1: love Twilight. Complete meant I loved Twilight. I'm a twyheart,
Speaker 1: but I meant fifty great, it's not, you know, but
Speaker 1: I will I will say it does feel like this
Speaker 1: whole book is, or the beginning of the book is
Speaker 1: just like the lesson as trust your instincts, like it,
Speaker 1: you know. And she just keeps like, I highlighted this
Speaker 1: one little section where it's like, um, then they suddenly
Speaker 1: decided to get married in there. It was such an adventure.
Speaker 1: I smiled to myself as I had my knees bla.
Speaker 1: I was to be Mrs Winter. It was foolish to
Speaker 1: go on having that pain in the pit of my
Speaker 1: stomach when I was so happy. Nerves, of course, and
Speaker 1: I just highlighted it and said, red flag when you
Speaker 1: have the nerves in the pit of your stomach, runaway. Yeah.
Speaker 1: My mom taught me always trust your gut, and then
Speaker 1: she told me several stories of people who were murdered
Speaker 1: when they didn't trust their gut. When I was like
Speaker 1: a teenager, She's like, so trust your gut otherwise you'll
Speaker 1: be murdered. Yeah, that's a good mom. Okay, let's take
Speaker 1: a brief moment here for an head break. So we're
Speaker 1: back with Popcorn Book Club for My Heart Radio. She
Speaker 1: was so obsessed that she was willing to be like,
Speaker 1: I'll just I'll just be your friends a dog. I
Speaker 1: don't care. I know you're you're still not over. Part
Speaker 1: that I did highly that I thought was absolutely crazy
Speaker 1: was where she was like in that exact conversation when
Speaker 1: she's like, I know you love Rebecca so much, and
Speaker 1: he goes, what why would you think I loved Rebecca?
Speaker 1: Why would you not red flag? Why would your wife
Speaker 1: think that you loved your fabulous ex wife? He's like, what,
Speaker 1: you stupid idiot, you thought I loved my wife. Here's
Speaker 1: the thing about red flags. I feel like, if there
Speaker 1: are some red flags, but there are an exponentially larger
Speaker 1: number of green flags, you can kind of forgive some
Speaker 1: of the red flags, but maxim to winter at zero
Speaker 1: green rich rich, handsome, nice house, rich rich rich rich flags.
Speaker 1: That is an economic state of being, that's not a
Speaker 1: green flags. I'm just saying those are his only positive attributes.
Speaker 1: There's a bow Jack Horseman quote that goes some thing
Speaker 1: like when you're looking through looking at the world through
Speaker 1: rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags, um,
Speaker 1: And I feel like that's what it is. Like. She
Speaker 1: was so smitten by this handsome man with a good
Speaker 1: jaw line and a and Amanda Manderley that it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what these flags are there just flags.
Speaker 1: I love flags someone giving her attention for the first
Speaker 1: time in her life and like talking to her like
Speaker 1: an equal and not as a employ And I think
Speaker 1: on some levels she wants it, Like she wants the
Speaker 1: waiters to be more respectful of her when she's at
Speaker 1: the hotel. Dare she doesn't want people just throwing a
Speaker 1: cold ham at her. Yeah, that's so very understandable. But
Speaker 1: she also hasty of like alright, like I'll skip over
Speaker 1: all the hard parts of becoming an adult. It'll just
Speaker 1: skip to the part where I'm in my mid thirties
Speaker 1: and I'm the lady of the house and everybody respects
Speaker 1: me and thinks I'm fabulous. I will say, as someone
Speaker 1: who has dated older people, that is like a fantasy
Speaker 1: that I share, and it never goes Well, I keep
Speaker 1: telling you to stop doing I've stopped. Yeah, enjoy being young, Benome.
Speaker 1: It only took five years for you to start listening
Speaker 1: to jump in. I only ever dated, I don't think
Speaker 1: because the fantasy. Well, I also don't want to pretend
Speaker 1: I'm interested in a boyfriend playing video games for like
Speaker 1: two hours. Um, you don't like watching boys play video games?
Speaker 1: Jen No, And I don't say it comfortable. I'm married now,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. The secret is out. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: think Maxim says like one good thing to her. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, thinking about back on the book, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think he says like one decent or like
Speaker 1: even complimentary, like when he proposed to it, he calls
Speaker 1: her a silly little fool. He and like even when
Speaker 1: he finally tells her that like she has murdered or
Speaker 1: he has murdered Rebecca, his like blind that I thought
Speaker 1: was very funny was him being like, and I'd make
Speaker 1: you a mother, like after never talk about like anything
Speaker 1: about their relationship. That's like the first thing that he
Speaker 1: There was one scene where she's like, she's like getting
Speaker 1: ready to go meet someone, and she was very to
Speaker 1: care about it, and she was like, is my like
Speaker 1: skirt or harrokaite? And He's like, yeah, whatever, it's fine.
Speaker 1: I do you know. I'm looking at the director and
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm sure he's very good, but it
Speaker 1: I think this movie I wish they had hired a
Speaker 1: female director for this movie, because I do think what
Speaker 1: I want to experience in a movie like this is
Speaker 1: that feeling of being so clouded by infatuation and and
Speaker 1: this first feeling of love as a young woman that
Speaker 1: you ignore the things that scare you and you ignore
Speaker 1: your intuition. And I feel like it's very different the
Speaker 1: way you know women being afraid of men like that
Speaker 1: is a very real thing that they might kill you,
Speaker 1: which in this case he does kills him a woman.
Speaker 1: But I just feel like we've a lot of women
Speaker 1: have been in this situation of like being totally infatuated
Speaker 1: with a very scary bad man, and I feel like
Speaker 1: it would be but the feeling of it of like
Speaker 1: the twist of like, look at this perfect prince charming
Speaker 1: and then like the reality sets in when she goes
Speaker 1: to Manderley, Like I love that, and I hope that
Speaker 1: that he does service to it. It's such a female story.
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah. I think one of the things that
Speaker 1: I noticed and we talked a little bit about it,
Speaker 1: Mrs Danvers has all this misplaced rage and disappointment with
Speaker 1: Mr de Winter that she then just dumps onto the
Speaker 1: new Mrs de Winter, and I think that it's really
Speaker 1: interesting how this, even almost a hundred years ago, has
Speaker 1: that aspect of women are mean to each other because
Speaker 1: they can't be mean to men. And I think that
Speaker 1: getting into that, I do wish that there were a
Speaker 1: female director because I think that showing that and I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that a male director cannot do that. I
Speaker 1: mean a man directed Mean Girls, which is a classic
Speaker 1: of women meet girls being mean to each other because
Speaker 1: they can't be mean to men. Um. But I do
Speaker 1: think that there is something about that that is so
Speaker 1: ingrained in people who are raised female. Yes, And I
Speaker 1: think like the changing the subject slightly from gender. I
Speaker 1: think the class issue. I hope that the film covers
Speaker 1: that and and dials home because I do think that
Speaker 1: is a very important element of the book that's in
Speaker 1: mostly in subtext, in the major class and power differential
Speaker 1: between Max and his wife and Mrs Danvers and the
Speaker 1: restricted behaviors that come with that. Yeah, and I hope
Speaker 1: that he hold like this director doesn't make Army Hammer person.
Speaker 1: I think they're going they're going to make it a romance. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that Army Hammer was kind of shitty, and
Speaker 1: I mean, he was very shitty, but I think that
Speaker 1: they actually did a good job of showing him as
Speaker 1: shitty and sorry to bother you. Yeah, but yeah, but
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope that that stays true, because like
Speaker 1: there's not there's really nothing charming about Maxim in this book,
Speaker 1: and I think it could be really easy for an
Speaker 1: adaptation to inject some sort of like charm to him,
Speaker 1: so that I hope. A preview for the director said
Speaker 1: that he wanted to make Conversion that's more about love,
Speaker 1: um and very I mean, it's about exaction in an
Speaker 1: interesting way. But Maxim de Winter does not strike me
Speaker 1: as sexy. Um. Rebecca strikes me as impossibly so like
Speaker 1: just like a woman whom everybody would want to sleep with. Yes,
Speaker 1: every Rachel is a great example. Yeah. Um, Maxim strikes
Speaker 1: me as frosty and detached and as like Prince Charles
Speaker 1: kind of like like this like a sexual like so
Speaker 1: well bred that they're just like a non entity. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to a sexuality. No no, no no, no, so sorry,
Speaker 1: that's you're completely correct, um de sexualized when the framing
Speaker 1: And but I will say that, like what I like
Speaker 1: about the start of the story is that she does
Speaker 1: meet him on vacation, and it's all through her perspective,
Speaker 1: Like we as the reader, can see that he is
Speaker 1: an interesting and perhaps dangerous but we're in her head
Speaker 1: of like imagining a life. And I do think I
Speaker 1: love the idea of meeting someone on vacation and then
Speaker 1: you go back to real life and it's like, oh no,
Speaker 1: they suck, like the idea of the prince charming of
Speaker 1: Cinderella and then you go back to the palace after
Speaker 1: what's supposed to be happily ever after and it's just
Speaker 1: terrible and fraught. Um, I mean, none of the Protestants
Speaker 1: actually get married. All he all he offers her is
Speaker 1: status and did Tristan Yeah, yeah she's still married. Good job,
Speaker 1: not that getting divorces a bad job, but married just
Speaker 1: yea working good for you. Yeah. Clearly she could listened
Speaker 1: to who the people were on the show and paid attention.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I think that I could build
Speaker 1: a life with this person as opposed to this person
Speaker 1: is hot. Right now we have the fantasy suite, let's
Speaker 1: do this making decisions that I think it was fine.
Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored Christ forever. I do think it
Speaker 1: was also before the Bachelor became such a property that
Speaker 1: it's like you're now an influencer, that's your job. This
Speaker 1: was like back before then you became Instagram famous, when
Speaker 1: it's like, these are just normal people we have. He's
Speaker 1: a pilot or whatever. It's not an Instagram influencer who's
Speaker 1: already been on six seasons of The Bachelor. Okay, so
Speaker 1: in terms of Bachelor architects, since we're now on the Bachelor,
Speaker 1: I don't watch The Bachelor. I have never seen The Bachelor.
Speaker 1: I've seen many things about The Bachelor, so I have
Speaker 1: a working knowledge of it. But I did watch Unreal
Speaker 1: and they have all those different like like wifie villains,
Speaker 1: let's get cut all that stuff. Talking about the characters
Speaker 1: of this book, the new Mrs de Winter, who do
Speaker 1: we think that she is? Do we think she's wifely?
Speaker 1: I know that she gets the guy, but I don't
Speaker 1: see her as a wife. She's the weird and scure
Speaker 1: virgin who and this is Unreal character who like is
Speaker 1: too awkward to like wear a bikini on their group
Speaker 1: date and get to cut? Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely true. And then who's Rebecca? I don't know,
Speaker 1: how can we all like she wins. Heaven. We all
Speaker 1: know a man who dated incredibly interesting women and then
Speaker 1: they break up and then the next woman they date
Speaker 1: is like a pale meeting insipid person who like says, oh, asparagus,
Speaker 1: I've never seen that before. Sorry, that was kind of question.
Speaker 1: Is that plucked from life? That's are like, very very real.
Speaker 1: Maybe she lived in a food desert and was not.
Speaker 1: It's true, it's very it's you know what, that's so true.
Speaker 1: That's like a fertile crescent of produce. And we're also
Speaker 1: lucky that we've seen a fracas, but also like maybe
Speaker 1: she could have seen it in a picture. It seems
Speaker 1: like you just don't like this woman, and this is
Speaker 1: kind of you. I do sound you know what. She
Speaker 1: sounds like a wet boy, like you know, sometimes you
Speaker 1: don't like somebody, and it's like, oh, look at the
Speaker 1: way she choose gum horrible. You know, I get a job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you love someone, they no matter what they do.
Speaker 1: I think we hold producer of the show. Is Rebecca
Speaker 1: wins the show for sure? Then I think Rebecca's runner up? No,
Speaker 1: I think next season, Oh, no up? And then she yes,
Speaker 1: I think she wins. But then they break up, but
Speaker 1: she then makes it a sob story about how he
Speaker 1: dumped her and left her completely blindsided, and then she's bachelorette.
Speaker 1: She wouldn't lose a competition. See I think. I think
Speaker 1: Rebecca is one of the like hot ones. But then
Speaker 1: she starts in like an a fair relationship with one
Speaker 1: of the Vietnam and doesn't even did happen. It's happened
Speaker 1: in Vietnam, it happened in Australia too. I agree. I
Speaker 1: feel like she wants to play the game to win,
Speaker 1: and to play the game to win for her is
Speaker 1: not getting the man. It's getting to be the next
Speaker 1: bachelor at because that will extend the life of her career. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she wants to have control. And so then when
Speaker 1: she picks the guy there, it's like, okay, we can
Speaker 1: be famous together as long as you don't sunk up
Speaker 1: my ship, like I'll put you on my Instagram. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a pretty good deal she made with Maxim. I mean,
Speaker 1: she was straightforward about it. She's like, this is the deal.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a deal because she kind of forced it
Speaker 1: on you. Yeah, that's true. But he was chill about
Speaker 1: it because she had like a sex attack by the scene,
Speaker 1: like we net All and Shack. He didn't get rid
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, well that's because he can't go down
Speaker 1: to it, like it's too horrifying for one Okay, I
Speaker 1: mean the tragedy in this book extends to Mrs Danvers
Speaker 1: and the second Missister Winter, obviously, but it also extends
Speaker 1: to the limitations placed on Rebecca. Like Rebecca is clearly
Speaker 1: somebody who if she was alive today would be running
Speaker 1: a fortune. Like she wanted the money in the house.
Speaker 1: She did not want to have to commit herself to
Speaker 1: this one man who was kind of dealt and Danvers said,
Speaker 1: like she they always said, you should have been born
Speaker 1: a boy and like it. In that time, It's like
Speaker 1: that's the only way she could have lived the independent
Speaker 1: life she desired was to be a man. She had
Speaker 1: to marry well in order to have the life that
Speaker 1: she wanted. And it's again why I don't know how
Speaker 1: much better the second this is de Wint's life would
Speaker 1: have been if she had a very maxim like maybe
Speaker 1: she would have met a nice person in New York
Speaker 1: that she made it pretty she met she win. Yes,
Speaker 1: she made it clear she was not interested in those
Speaker 1: man that she hated younger man who were always asking
Speaker 1: her like do you like hot music? Yeah? I understandably
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to go out to jazz clubs. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She wasn't looking for a nice boy. She wanted a daddy,
Speaker 1: a murder daddy, a murder daddy. I think, Jennifer, that's
Speaker 1: really poignant with Rebecca is like, yeah, she wanted a
Speaker 1: certain life that if she was a man, would have
Speaker 1: been allowed to live, which is just like throw amazing
Speaker 1: parties and have sex with whoever you want. Yeah, Jay Gatsby, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the sex with whoever you want, because he just wants
Speaker 1: to have sex. Yeah, and he just wants to have
Speaker 1: sex with his shirts. But but if but if Jay
Speaker 1: was Rebecca, he would be hot enough to seduce her. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps Indeed. I have thoroughly enjoyed this, uh, the
Speaker 1: intellectual discourse of the Bachelor and which people they would be.
Speaker 1: And I want to thank you all for going down
Speaker 1: that road with me. And who would Maximate, Oh, he
Speaker 1: would have been cut in the first episode. I think
Speaker 1: I think they would have made Maxim would be a
Speaker 1: bachelor that you're like, this dude's a third string quarterback.
Speaker 1: For an NFL. I think that anybody's hands on the
Speaker 1: producers would have realized, osh it, he's so boring. We
Speaker 1: have to cut around him and make the women really
Speaker 1: interesting and seem toxic because he has nothing to offer
Speaker 1: up but he's Yeah. I think if Maxim were on
Speaker 1: the Bachelorette, he would make it through the first couple
Speaker 1: of rounds of cuts, but then he would get into
Speaker 1: a huge fist fight with another person with another contestant,
Speaker 1: and then he wouldn't get cut. He would leave in
Speaker 1: a huff, and then he would do like an expose
Speaker 1: on about what really happened. I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: he talked about his house incessantly and it might get
Speaker 1: him to the episode where they go home to meet
Speaker 1: the family, because and the producers really wanted. And I
Speaker 1: also think he would still be a widow, which would
Speaker 1: be really interesting on the Bachelor, Like that's the whole angle,
Speaker 1: and he would be able to use that as like
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, he needs a new a new wife,
Speaker 1: and I need a murder daddy. So it would work
Speaker 1: out for a while. One quick question when he is
Speaker 1: murdering her and she's like, I'm pregnant with Jack's baby.
Speaker 1: What you're gonna do about it? I'm gonna raise him
Speaker 1: a mander, Like, um, is he so scared? Like could
Speaker 1: he not get a divorce? Like I know the scandal
Speaker 1: was that she would turn everyone against him, but he
Speaker 1: literally was like that scandal was so outrageous to him
Speaker 1: that he had to uh murder her. The one thing
Speaker 1: that the Second Winter have in common. Obsessed with how
Speaker 1: other people might. Yeah, Remeba does not seem to like
Speaker 1: Rebecca will suck people in cottage any day because she's like,
Speaker 1: I will turn people against you when we get divorced.
Speaker 1: It's like she had waries, he had her moonlight, the
Speaker 1: moonlight picnics. Okay, that's an orgy. I mean, I feel
Speaker 1: like he made that choice because again patriarchy, he knew, Like,
Speaker 1: I think he knows he could get away with this.
Speaker 1: He is like the epitome of that. The town centers
Speaker 1: around him, and like they all want to be in
Speaker 1: good with Maxim the like magistrate and like all of
Speaker 1: those men and so like, I think he did it
Speaker 1: because he knew he could. Divorce would be a scandal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a divorce would be I think that if she was Indeed,
Speaker 1: because we have to remember, he genuinely believes that she's pregnant.
Speaker 1: Her pregnancy and therefore the air is still legitimate even
Speaker 1: if he divorces her. Right, I don't pretend to know
Speaker 1: how upper white people lived in England. I think I
Speaker 1: think that's us made it clear that Jack was her
Speaker 1: lover and it was Jack's baby, and maximum Hannah slept
Speaker 1: those three years, which might happen like Jack seems just
Speaker 1: think if he going to get married. Also, before you
Speaker 1: murder her, get a second opinion or a first opinion. Well,
Speaker 1: she knew, I mean, that's the whole thing. She knew
Speaker 1: exactly what she was doing. She knew exactly what to say,
Speaker 1: and that would corner him because she knows that he
Speaker 1: deep down he's a bad murder guy, and that like
Speaker 1: he cares about the status and Manderley more than he
Speaker 1: cares about her life. And and so she taunted him
Speaker 1: into it. I wonder was and maybe this is obvious,
Speaker 1: but I hadn't really thought about until now. The letter
Speaker 1: to Jack was that so that um Jack would discover
Speaker 1: Maxim and he would go to prison. Yes, I never
Speaker 1: thought about that. That's great that come to the moon
Speaker 1: like cottage and maybe you would catch him in the act.
Speaker 1: Or it could be that she really genuinely was going
Speaker 1: to tell him that she had like cancer because she
Speaker 1: did to some extent care about him and he was
Speaker 1: her cousin. Yeah, yeah, well maybe maybe it was more
Speaker 1: in retrospect. Maybe when Maxim came down there, she was
Speaker 1: saying all this because because you're right, like Maxim would
Speaker 1: get away with it, but he but Rebecca probably thinks
Speaker 1: Jack is coming up here. He I'm going to get
Speaker 1: him to kill me, and then he's going to get caught.
Speaker 1: He doesn't think he's gonna get caught, but he's gonna
Speaker 1: get caught. And stupid, stupid Jack had like a drinking night, right,
Speaker 1: Yeah he was alcohol Boys. You know, when if your
Speaker 1: alcohol consumption gets in the way of you stopping your
Speaker 1: lover cousin's murder, you might want to get to a
Speaker 1: meeting or talk to a dop. That's when you know
Speaker 1: it's that's your rough bottom when when Rebecca's where Rebecca's
Speaker 1: body is on rock bottle. I did love the name
Speaker 1: of the boat was I returned perfect spooky detail, Johivian.
Speaker 1: I didn't even want to try the French, so thank you.
Speaker 1: This is also I don't know if you guys have
Speaker 1: read Jane Eyre, but like Jane Eyre is another one
Speaker 1: where a husband treats his first wife appallingly and then
Speaker 1: we're sort of ok, yeah, like yeah, she has such
Speaker 1: fiery blood, Oh my god, and the house also burned down. Ye. Well,
Speaker 1: actually there was talk, so I don't know if you
Speaker 1: all heard about this, but I did some reading on
Speaker 1: Daphne and she was accused of plagiarism by a Brazilian
Speaker 1: author named Carolina Nabuco, who wrote a book called a
Speaker 1: success aora Um in nineteen thirty four, which was I
Speaker 1: believe three or four years before Rebecca was published, and um.
Speaker 1: One of the things that she kind of used to
Speaker 1: her advantage when she was accused of this plagiarism was well,
Speaker 1: Jane Eyre deals with similar things, like it's not a
Speaker 1: new idea, but like it was a whole situation where
Speaker 1: Carolina Nabuco was like, I'm not going to sign any
Speaker 1: of the paperwork that your agents keep sending to me,
Speaker 1: saying that the coincidences are just coincidences, like the similarities
Speaker 1: are real, and you plagiarized me and Daphne Dumourier actually
Speaker 1: wrote to the New York Times because the New York
Speaker 1: Times had suggested that it was maybe plagiarized in their
Speaker 1: review of Rebecca, and she wrote a letter to the
Speaker 1: editor and she's like, can you not excuse you? And
Speaker 1: she was like, maybe it was just a coincidence because
Speaker 1: we're dealing with similar themes. Did you ever think about that? Like,
Speaker 1: do you even think bro Um? And I mean, this
Speaker 1: book is exactly like that. It is, Honestly, if it's
Speaker 1: plagiarized from anything, it's Jane Eyre, which is that you
Speaker 1: fall in love with an older, mysterious man who's very
Speaker 1: cold to you find out he was an asshole to
Speaker 1: his first wife, who was crazy. It's all her fault.
Speaker 1: She deserved it. And then the house burns down and
Speaker 1: a success Saura. I'm probably pronouncing it wrong because I
Speaker 1: do not speak Portuguese, but that was also adapted. It
Speaker 1: was adapted into a telenovela in the seventies worth checking out,
Speaker 1: especially if anyone speaks Portuguese or can read Portuguese. That
Speaker 1: would be fun. Yeah, I did not know that. I
Speaker 1: also wrote The Birds, just getting all of his Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: when I started reading it. When I started reading it.
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, no, she she wrote the birds.
Speaker 1: This is the same plodding. Oh no. I read The
Speaker 1: Birds after I finished this because I'm so excited, and uh,
Speaker 1: it's so much better than the movie. I liked it
Speaker 1: so much. It was It's very short. It's a really
Speaker 1: like little quick short story that we'll keep you awake
Speaker 1: at night. So it's great. Question does it doesn't vilify
Speaker 1: birds as much as the movie? Because I like birds
Speaker 1: a lot, and I feel like the birds are unfairly
Speaker 1: maligned by the films birds. If you relate two in
Speaker 1: the book the humans say are murdering, I would say
Speaker 1: it would out her Win Birch for you. If you
Speaker 1: say this when you're like, yeah, I must see golf,
Speaker 1: then yeah, it's a great moment for you. It's like
Speaker 1: a moment from the Birch Rise office. Okay, I do
Speaker 1: like bird solidarity. Birds aren't time is now? Yeah? Send
Speaker 1: it there. Like, just because there are some murdering birds
Speaker 1: in one book doesn't mean all birds are murderers, you know,
Speaker 1: Like right, it's okay, think about it like a zombie apocalypse. Yeah,
Speaker 1: house birds are not murderers, but in this book they
Speaker 1: all become murderers, and you know, I appreciate you assuaging
Speaker 1: my fears. I follow the Audubon Society on Twitter like
Speaker 1: a you and Jonathan Brandon. At least, don't ever compare
Speaker 1: me to Jonathan for you do you go bird watch?
Speaker 1: Do you go bird watching? I do not go birdwatching.
Speaker 1: But okay, so you know those scooters that were everywhere
Speaker 1: bird scooters? Yeah, I went to those are not birds. No.
Speaker 1: I went to acting class and my scene partner was like, hey,
Speaker 1: how are you? And I was like, I'm good. How
Speaker 1: was your weekend? And he was like, oh, I went
Speaker 1: birding this weekend And I was like really, And I
Speaker 1: didn't know that he meant like riding a bird scooter.
Speaker 1: I thought he went bird watching. And then he thought
Speaker 1: I was a nerd because I was like, tell me
Speaker 1: about the birds you saw? You know movie that I
Speaker 1: watched on a plane called The Big Year. It's just
Speaker 1: about um the year when um. I guess people in
Speaker 1: the Audubon Society all try to see how many birds
Speaker 1: they watch? Me here, you like birds and bird watching?
Speaker 1: You got? I watched it on a plane. It was
Speaker 1: pretty pleasant. Dyna made fun of me once because I
Speaker 1: had pet birds growing up. Yeah, I think I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think birds belong in homes, pet belongs, but
Speaker 1: birds can fly. Okay, No, my my ex girlfriend had
Speaker 1: a bird, and I then it was weird it about it,
Speaker 1: So I think you mean, I mean they scare but
Speaker 1: we did. We didn't have a bird that was that
Speaker 1: we had to give away to a bird sanctuary because
Speaker 1: honey Pie, who had named her, turned out to be
Speaker 1: a male bird who was that we didn't know for
Speaker 1: years was a male bird and was squawking all the
Speaker 1: time because he was horny and needed to mate um.
Speaker 1: And so honey Pie went to a bird he got made,
Speaker 1: which is better because we also had cats, and those
Speaker 1: cats terrorized poor Honeypie. What if we all wrote an
Speaker 1: adaptation of the birds, but it's the scooters. It's a
Speaker 1: modern adaptation, and the scooters are coming to kill you.
Speaker 1: Why are we giving away this gold on air sand
Speaker 1: might cut that out? Imagine how terrifying, Imagine how terrifying
Speaker 1: it would be to see a barrage of bird scooters
Speaker 1: coming at you with no riders, just like I'm already
Speaker 1: seeing the handlebars like treated like eyes. So they may
Speaker 1: come across the court like they peer around a corner
Speaker 1: and just like come at you, I'm gonna write. I'll
Speaker 1: write it, I'll write it all write Okay, great, great, great.
Speaker 1: That's our show for the week. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening. I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Danis Schwartz with three z s. You
Speaker 1: can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley Wright Karama, Donqua
Speaker 1: is at Karama Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa ft
Speaker 1: W and Tian Tran is smart enough to have gotten
Speaker 1: off Twitter, but she is on Insta at Hank Tina.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Christopher Hessiotis and we're produced and
Speaker 1: edited by Mike John's special thanks to David Wasserman. Next
Speaker 1: week it'll be screen time. We'll take a look at
Speaker 1: Alfred Hitchcock's film adaptation of Rebecca, and if you want
Speaker 1: to plan ahead, we'll be watching the rest of Lovecraft
Speaker 1: Country on HBO and then moving on to V for Vendetta.
Speaker 1: Popcorn Book Club is a production of I Heart Radio