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Speaker 1: Hey, what's up everybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jamel Hill, and welcome to his politics and iHeart

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Speaker 2: podcast and Unbothered Network production.

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Speaker 1: Time to get spolitical.

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Speaker 2: One of the biggest lies ever told about sports is

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Speaker 2: that sports and politics don't mix. Often when people say

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Speaker 2: keep politics out of sports, what they.

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Speaker 1: Really mean is shut up and dribble, or they mean.

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Speaker 2: Stick to sports unless his politics I agree with.

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Speaker 1: And you campaign for President Darrell Hey think he's doing

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Speaker 1: I think he's doing well.

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Speaker 3: I just hope he can get agendas going. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he wants to cut deals, but unfortunately we have a

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Speaker 3: lot of people against him, and for the wrong reason.

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Speaker 3: You know, I know him personally, and I know he's

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Speaker 3: a great guy.

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Speaker 4: Well, somebody who has said some highly critical things about

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Speaker 4: the president is Jamille Hill, who's a sportscaster does a

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Speaker 4: six o'clock sports center over at esp and earlier on

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Speaker 4: a tweet this week, I refer to the president as

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Speaker 4: a white supremacist. People were wondering what ESPN would do.

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Speaker 4: Apparently they talked to her. She apologized to them, said

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Speaker 4: she felt bad that she put them in a bad light.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, that's good that she owned up to it,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I want.

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Speaker 1: To watch sports for sports, thank you.

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Speaker 3: You know, when the politics get involved with sports, it

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Speaker 3: gets a little bit touchy.

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Speaker 2: Johnny Damon appearing on Fox News to support Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: while also telling me to stick to sports.

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Speaker 1: Irony truly is on the line now.

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Speaker 2: Politics touches everything we do, even our precious little sports.

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Speaker 2: In fact, especially our precious little sports. So I wanted

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Speaker 2: to create a space for sports and politics not only mixed,

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Speaker 2: but they matter. The marriage of sports and politics isn't

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Speaker 2: exactly new, In fact, it's.

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Speaker 1: Old as fuck.

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Speaker 2: What if I told you that when our first president,

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Speaker 2: George Washington, first ran for political office in Virginia, he

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Speaker 2: used to host election parties and bribe people to vote

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Speaker 2: by getting them drunk, as well as having them.

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Speaker 1: Play games, Henny and horseshoes. You got my vote, George. Yes,

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Speaker 1: even back then, when dudes were wearing wigs and.

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Speaker 2: Hain stockings, the political elite understood the fusion between sports

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Speaker 2: and politics, and over time, that complicated alliance became even

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Speaker 2: more pronounced. And as soon as it was discovered that

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Speaker 2: sports could be heavily influenced by politics, well you.

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Speaker 1: Know what happened.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: What if I told you.

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Speaker 2: Football wouldn't exist if it weren't for Theodore Roosevelt, the

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Speaker 2: twenty sixth President of the United States. In the early

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Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds, a lot of people wanted to ban football

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Speaker 2: because it was too deadly and dangerous. Yeah, I know, funny,

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Speaker 2: how some things never change. In nineteen oh four, the

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Speaker 2: Chicago Tribune reported that eighteen people died playing football, and

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Speaker 2: there were over one hundred and fifty serious injuries, mostly

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Speaker 2: to youth football players. That's when Teddy Roosevelt, the football fan, intervened.

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Speaker 2: The President, whose son, Theodore Junior, was a football player

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Speaker 2: at Harvard, held a summit at the White House in

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Speaker 2: nineteen oh five with representatives from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton

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Speaker 2: to discuss ways they could make football less violent.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: It didn't happen immediately, but eventually the powerbrokers introduced radical

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Speaker 2: concepts like the forward pass and the neutral zone, and

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Speaker 2: instead of a first down being five yards, it became

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Speaker 2: ten yards.

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Speaker 1: Very wild times. But something interesting happened.

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Speaker 2: After the Civil War, Black athletes started to become more prominent,

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Speaker 2: and as their stature grew, they became more inboldened and

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Speaker 2: to white America, they also became more of a threat.

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Speaker 2: For example, between eighteen seventy five and nineteen oh two,

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Speaker 2: eleven African American jockeys won the Kentucky Derby, but that

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Speaker 2: success didn't lead to a high demand for black jockeys. Rather,

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Speaker 2: horse owners were so threatened by their success that they

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Speaker 2: conspired to exclude black jockeys. This became the playbook for

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Speaker 2: trying to suppress black power. Moses Fleetwood Walker was technically

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Speaker 2: the first black player to play in Major League Baseball.

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Speaker 2: In eighteen eighty nine, after playing in the Miners, Walker

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Speaker 2: was released, and Major League Baseball wouldn't add another blackface

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Speaker 2: in its league until Jackie Robinson sixty three years later.

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Speaker 2: When the NFL was founded in nineteen twenty, the league

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Speaker 2: was integrated mostly because Americans weren't really checking.

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Speaker 1: For football like that.

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Speaker 2: Fritz Pollard was one of the league's biggest stars, a

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Speaker 2: champion who became the league's first black head coach, But

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Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty three, George Preston Marshall, the owner of

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Speaker 2: the Washington football team, led a movement to banned black

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Speaker 2: players from the league as the Great Depression intensified. Marshall

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Speaker 2: was a hard eer racist who once said will start

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Speaker 2: signing negroes when the Harlem Globe Trotters start signing whites.

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Speaker 2: The last name Marshall wanted was for white folks to

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Speaker 2: see black players making a living playing football when good

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Speaker 2: old white folks were struggling just to eat. So from

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three to nineteen forty five, black players were

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Speaker 2: banned from the NFL, and to no one's surprised, the

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Speaker 2: last team in the NFL to sign a black player

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Speaker 2: was the Washington football team, which didn't happen until nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty one. According to longtime sports journalists Bill Roden, who

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Speaker 2: authored with the.

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Speaker 1: Powerful book forty Million Dollar Slave, black.

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Speaker 2: Athletes have always had this corporation success and systems designed

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Speaker 2: to deny them power.

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Speaker 5: As Blacks began to trickle into the game, they were

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Speaker 5: just simply seen as a threat period a threat. As

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Speaker 5: more and more African Americans began to dominate sports like

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Speaker 5: basketball and football, their numbers were seen as a threat

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Speaker 5: because they were taking jobs away from white men white players.

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Speaker 2: The presence and excellence of black athletes dramatically changed the

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Speaker 2: relationship between sports, politics, and culture. Even though white men

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Speaker 2: such as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson were among

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Speaker 2: the first to politicize sports. When black athletes started using

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Speaker 2: their platforms to speak to the conditions their own people

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Speaker 2: were subjected to, and to call out the hypocrisy of

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Speaker 2: white America wanting black talent but not black voices, it

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Speaker 2: was suddenly massive resistance to sports and politics mixing together

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Speaker 2: like yams and mac and cheese.

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Speaker 6: Has always been an important highway, but at the same time,

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Speaker 6: it's not been totally free of a lot of the

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Speaker 6: racism that we see uh in society, which is why

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Speaker 6: we're always talking about the intersection of race and racist sports.

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Speaker 6: Because as pure, or as even or as fair sports

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Speaker 6: supposed to be, we've always seen this unevenness, whether it's

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Speaker 6: in us quotas of black athlete, whether it's being black

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Speaker 6: athletes not being able to play certain positions, whether yeah,

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Speaker 6: you know earlier a couple of years ago, recently was

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Speaker 6: a couple of years ago. Commentators Jelen Lebron, James Matthews

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Speaker 6: just sharp and droopy.

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Speaker 2: Often when athletes speak up for themselves or call attention

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Speaker 2: to the conditions that impact marginalized people, they face severe penalties,

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Speaker 2: which sometimes include the weight of powerful politicians.

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Speaker 7: Love.

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Speaker 3: One of these NFL owners when somebody disrespects our flag

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Speaker 3: to say, get that son of a chop the field

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Speaker 3: right now out.

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Speaker 7: He's fired. He's fired.

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Speaker 2: Even with the pushback, the fact is that sports as

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Speaker 2: a political weapon has sometimes drugged the rest of society

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Speaker 2: to the progress that it sometimes initially rejects. Jackie Robinson

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Speaker 2: integrated baseball twenty years before legal desegregation began in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty nine, fifty seven years before Colin Kaepernick took a

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Speaker 2: need to protest against police brutality.

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Speaker 1: Track and field star Rose Robinson refused.

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Speaker 2: To stand for the national anthem at the Pandam Games because,

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Speaker 2: as she put it, the anthem represented quote war in

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Speaker 2: justice and hypocrisy.

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Speaker 1: Venus Williams fought to get the.

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Speaker 2: Women who competed in all four Grand Slams the same

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Speaker 2: prize money as men, and in two thousand and seven

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Speaker 2: that finally became a reality. Meanwhile, in civilian society, that

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Speaker 2: fight wages on, with women overall now earning eighty two

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Speaker 2: cents for every dollar a man makes. For Black women

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Speaker 2: that number is sixty nine cents, and for Hispanic and

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Speaker 2: Latina women fifty eight cents.

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Speaker 1: Sports and politics.

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Speaker 2: Are happening all around us all the time, whether it

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Speaker 2: be Caitlin Clark, fans wearing Make America Greater Gain hats

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Speaker 2: at her games, or athletes being reminded that their money

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Speaker 2: and fame doesn't insulate them from being victimized by the

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Speaker 2: same oppressive systems as anyone else.

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Speaker 7: Get out of that guy right now. We're not playing

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Speaker 7: this game.

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Speaker 8: Get out, get get out. Yeah, you know what quarter

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Speaker 8: of products you want to.

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Speaker 1: Or them realizing that their political voice matters.

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Speaker 9: I want people to understand now, I grew up in

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Speaker 9: an inner city and I know the whole notion of

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Speaker 9: getting out and voting. And I was one of those kids,

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Speaker 9: and I was around the community that was like, our

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Speaker 9: vote doesn't matter, but it really does.

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Speaker 2: Sports and politics simply cannot be separated. And that is

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Speaker 2: why this podcast as Politics exists. The sports and politics

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Speaker 2: relationship might at times be troubling, like Donald Trump and

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Speaker 2: felony convictions, but it deserves further examination, reflection, and conversation.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to my opening filibuster. I'm Jamel Hill,

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Speaker 2: and I approve this message. Coming up next on Spolitics,

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Speaker 2: it's the first guest in politics history a man whose

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Speaker 2: favorite athlete became one of the most infamous athletes in

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Speaker 2: sports history. A man who liked me also left ESPN

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Speaker 2: under a bit of controversy. A man who is definitely

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Speaker 2: not afraid to discuss the intersection between sports, race, politics,

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Speaker 2: and culture. A man who has built his own empire

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Speaker 2: down there in Miami. The one and only my friend

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Speaker 2: Dan Lebretard up next on spolitics. Dan, I must admit

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Speaker 2: this seems very odd. I'm so used to being interviewed

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Speaker 2: by you.

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Speaker 1: Me getting the.

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Speaker 2: Opportunity to interview you actually feels kind of strange.

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Speaker 7: I am. I'm very eager to do it with you, Jamel,

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Speaker 7: because if your audience does not know, there are very

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Speaker 7: few people in the history of this business that I

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Speaker 7: admire more than you. So thank you for just including

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Speaker 7: me adjacent to anything you do, because I've been a

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Speaker 7: fan of your work and your strength, because no one

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Speaker 7: in our business has had to be stronger than you

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Speaker 7: for thirty years.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for telling people how old I am

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Speaker 2: that I'm a fossil, but I appreciate you saying that.

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Speaker 2: That means a lot coming from somebody like you, whose

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Speaker 2: career I feel like I have respected for just as long,

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Speaker 2: if not longer going back to your days at the

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Speaker 2: Miami Hero because you know a lot of people, they

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Speaker 2: get so caught up in the television thing and all

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Speaker 2: the multimedia things that you do. Now that there's an

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Speaker 2: entire possible generation that is not familiar with Dan levatart

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Speaker 2: the writer, which I found to be just as compelling

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Speaker 2: as Dan levatar at the TV personality. I could make

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Speaker 2: an argument a more compelling writer, but I'll save that

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Speaker 2: for a conversation or a question that I want to have.

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Speaker 1: With you later on in this interview.

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Speaker 2: But because we tend to always dive into heavy stuff,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to actually start with something a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit lighter for you.

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Speaker 2: Tell me who is the athlete that made you love sports?

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Speaker 7: The reason that question is so funny, you know what

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Speaker 7: I'm going The way I'm going to tell this story

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Speaker 7: instead of just telling you and having you be shocked,

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Speaker 7: the name of the athlete is going to be at

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Speaker 7: the end of this story because it's a funny answer

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Speaker 7: to the question. If I just left it alone as

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Speaker 7: the name, the thing that made me love sports is

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Speaker 7: I come from an exile fan family, a political exile family,

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Speaker 7: not immigrant. They left for political reasons to chase freedom.

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Speaker 7: And it was a very small life that I did

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Speaker 7: not know was small, filled with a lot of fear

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Speaker 7: and not very much money. So when my father, the

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Speaker 7: person working at a fiberglass plant, got the worst tickets

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Speaker 7: that they gave at the office that no one else wanted,

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Speaker 7: he took me to a football game and when I

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Speaker 7: walked in with him, and you know, I just I

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Speaker 7: tell this story all the time when people ask me

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Speaker 7: sports memory type questions. I still remember the way that

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Speaker 7: my hand felt small in his because he's taking me

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Speaker 7: through a concourse at a loud football stadium with a

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Speaker 7: lot of people, and I've just never seen anything like it.

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Speaker 7: It's like a kid going to Disney World from a

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Speaker 7: small existence and then just feeling the energy of what

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Speaker 7: is this thing? And the reason that we were going

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Speaker 7: there is because the Dolphins were playing a truly terrible

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Speaker 7: football team and I got to scream from the stands

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Speaker 7: that we were going to squeeze the juice. So OJ

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Speaker 7: Simpson is the answer to your question of the first

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Speaker 7: athlete that I ever loved. And after that, a lot

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Speaker 7: of things.

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Speaker 2: That one didn't age particularly well did it.

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Speaker 7: But it was the feeling right like you can imagine

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Speaker 7: and I don't know what your origin story is, but

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Speaker 7: I did not know that I would love sports. I

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Speaker 7: did not know that the connection point to my father

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Speaker 7: would have sports in it more than any other. That

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Speaker 7: that my father emotionally is probably somewhere on the Aspergers scale.

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Speaker 7: So I spent my entire childhood trying to please a

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Speaker 7: man who wasn't doing play, And you know that was

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Speaker 7: all pleasure. Like everything that happened there was me awe

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Speaker 7: in discovery, a kid opening Christmas presents and not knowing

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Speaker 7: yet that Santa Claus doesn't exist.

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Speaker 2: So it appears that the likeness of our conversation has

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Speaker 2: lasted all of thirty seconds because you mentioned your parents,

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Speaker 2: and you are the son of Cuban exiles. For a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, they don't know quite what that means.

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Speaker 2: So as best you can can you explain to them

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Speaker 2: what that means, being you, being the son of them,

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Speaker 2: and what their life was like like give us the

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Speaker 2: connective tissue there.

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Speaker 7: My parents, more than anything else, taught me one thing

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Speaker 7: above all else. I'm fairly incompetent as an adult toddler

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Speaker 7: fixing anything around the house. It's embarrassing to me that

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Speaker 7: my wife has to do all the things, because the

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Speaker 7: thing that I was taught in my household is if

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Speaker 7: you work in America, you get to freedom. If you

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Speaker 7: work in America, you get to opportunities. So work becomes

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Speaker 7: who you are. Because they're leaving a communist regime that

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Speaker 7: at the ages of fifteen and sixteen, they are leaving

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Speaker 7: their parents, not knowing whether they'll ever see them again,

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Speaker 7: and then not meeting up with them again four ten years.

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Speaker 7: So if the audience can imagine whatever that is of

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Speaker 7: leaving your country to go to another country where you

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Speaker 7: don't speak the language and don't have any money, and

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Speaker 7: you think you're going to see your family again, but

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Speaker 7: they're putting you on planes because they're worried about a

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Speaker 7: revolution and the changing politics of Cuba that make it

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Speaker 7: so that a tyrant and firing squads are coming to

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Speaker 7: people who have different religious beliefs. There's not going to

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Speaker 7: be freedom of any kind. And America is a place

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Speaker 7: of real freedom. When I talk about some of this stuff,

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Speaker 7: and I imagine we'll cover where it is that I

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Speaker 7: bumped heads with the ESPN. When I talk about this stuff,

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Speaker 7: I don't tell Americans, hey, I value freedom more than you.

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Speaker 7: But when you have either fled to find freedom or

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Speaker 7: had to fight to get freedom. It's more front of

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Speaker 7: lobe than if you've had freedom all of your life

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Speaker 7: and are now not understanding what it's like or what

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Speaker 7: the consequences are of it being encroached upon. So being

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Speaker 7: an exile is a huge part of my identity, even

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Speaker 7: though my pain is all borrowed. I didn't have to

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Speaker 7: make any of the sacrifices like they made all the sacrifices.

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Speaker 7: All I had to do was work, and I since

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Speaker 7: become Americanized. My father named me Dan instead of Gonzalo

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Speaker 7: or Louise because he didn't want me to endure any

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Speaker 7: of the things that I would have to endure if

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Speaker 7: I was Gonzalo or Louise. And the great irony of

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Speaker 7: that is when I get a show on ESPN that

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Speaker 7: is meant to cater to the underserved Hispanic population, I

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Speaker 7: have to put my cartoon father on in his accent

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Speaker 7: because no one knows Dan Lebattard is Queen instead of front.

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Speaker 1: Now, how has that, would you say?

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Speaker 2: Like having coming from that parentage and that background, how

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Speaker 2: does that shape the way you look at American politics?

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Speaker 7: I Mean, I'm so confused by what's happening in America

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Speaker 7: right now, Jamel, because of how vastly I underestimated how

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Speaker 7: much race is used as politics, and I don't I

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Speaker 7: don't know how much the audience understands either Florida or

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Speaker 7: Cuban voting. They're only I think one point five million

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Speaker 7: Cuban voters, but they vote Republican for you know, a

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Speaker 7: thing that dates back to Bay of Pigs and also

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Speaker 7: doesn't like the Barack Obama open borders to a normalize

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Speaker 7: relations with a Fidel Castro who represents my family's hitler

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Speaker 7: in Cuba. But Feedale did a lot to help black

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Speaker 7: folks in Cuba, and it was part of his unpopularity

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Speaker 7: in Cuba. And so it's a complicated mix of things

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Speaker 7: that you have lived for a long time and see

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Speaker 7: happening in front of us right now where race becomes politics,

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Speaker 7: even though race should be about race. But we know

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Speaker 7: what it is to other people, and so I've sort

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Speaker 7: of meandered into I have separated from the politics of

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Speaker 7: my people here. Locally, they call me El Gusano the

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Speaker 7: worm in Spanish, because I don't align with my people here,

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Speaker 7: because I'm progressive. My people don't believe that Trump is

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Speaker 7: a threat to democracy. They believe that the Democratic Party

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Speaker 7: is the socialist party that wishes to not embrace again capitalism. Work,

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Speaker 7: keep your money, economy is the most important thing. And

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Speaker 7: also Cubans have a different relationship with this country than

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Speaker 7: say Haitians because for the longest time, Cubans can get

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Speaker 7: here on a boat. When you ask me my parents

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Speaker 7: leaving at fifteen or sixteen, Jamel, imagine what I'm about

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Speaker 7: to say to you. The biggest graveyard that there is

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Speaker 7: is the ocean that separates Cuba from Miami. Imagine getting

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Speaker 7: on a boat made of tires and wood to escape

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Speaker 7: your desperation and literally throwing your life to the wind

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Speaker 7: because you got to get the ninety miles to land

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Speaker 7: in Florida. Because Cubans get freedom here are used to wetfoot, dryfoot,

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Speaker 7: but Haitians do not, or nobody else does really like

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Speaker 7: So that freedom is at the forefront of where it

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Speaker 7: is that I separate from my people on politics locally,

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Speaker 7: regionally here in Miami.

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Speaker 1: So when did that separation begin?

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Speaker 2: Because you're growing up in a household that's very firmly

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Speaker 2: connected to those politics, I would imagine, So how and

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Speaker 2: when did you start to separate.

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Speaker 7: When I started meeting and talking to black people when

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Speaker 7: I was at the University of Miami and one of

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Speaker 7: my best friends is Bernard Clark, and he's saying to me,

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Speaker 7: you know, there is justice in jail, right, And I'm like,

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Speaker 7: what do you mean. He's like, it's just us and

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Speaker 7: and like that's the first time that I sort of

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Speaker 7: started thinking about any of those things because I didn't

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Speaker 7: have any black people in my childhood. It was very

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Speaker 7: cube and it was very isolated, you know how this

359
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 7: stuff happens, Like it's it's how communities get divided everywhere,

360
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Speaker 7: Like we grow up around our circumstances. And my father

361
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Speaker 7: was hell bent on sending me even though we couldn't

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Speaker 7: afford it, Like you know, he was he was driving

363
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Speaker 7: a car. The glove compartment would open anytime we hit

364
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Speaker 7: a bunt, a bump, and there was a hole in

365
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 7: the floorboard. But he was hell bent on getting me

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Speaker 7: to a private school, getting me an education that had money.

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Speaker 7: And so it had money but didn't have diversity. I

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Speaker 7: not until I got to college and started making friends

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Speaker 7: with the University of Miami football players that I was

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Speaker 7: sort of like it was a bit of culture. Shock right,

371
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Speaker 7: seeing how this group of people who were my friends

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Speaker 7: in college were being received by the country at large

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Speaker 7: as I'm coming up in sports writing, and they're the

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Speaker 7: most controversial thing that anyone has seen in sports, these

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Speaker 7: guys who are running rough shot over sportsmanship.

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Speaker 1: So I mean.

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Speaker 2: Having that sort of political education, social political education, do

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Speaker 2: you feel like that that made you perhaps best equipped,

379
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Speaker 2: or at least somewhat equipped to navigate these tricky waters

380
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 2: of sports and politics best equipped.

381
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Speaker 7: I don't know if I've navigated it particularly well, Jamelle,

382
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Speaker 7: because I've never considered myself someone who's in any way

383
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Speaker 7: interested in politics. I'm interested in race, and then as

384
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Speaker 7: I grew up, it got turned into politics on me.

385
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 7: I wasn't talking politics at ESPN. I was always talking

386
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Speaker 7: about race, and then after George Floyd, it became sort

387
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Speaker 7: of innevance bull that, oh, we're not going to be

388
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 7: able to pretend to keep separating these things. Like you

389
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 7: you lived it. I saw you live it. You know.

390
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 7: At at the end, I would throw an occasional Molotov

391
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Speaker 7: cocktail because one of the times I got in trouble

392
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Speaker 7: at ESPN is because you can imagine as an exile

393
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Speaker 7: where it is. I would get pissed off that a

394
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Speaker 7: president of this company, a country, excuse me, would be

395
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Speaker 7: telling immigrants and exiles to go back to where they

396
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Speaker 7: came from. Like, I don't need to explain to you

397
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 7: how offensive it is to me that an American president

398
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Speaker 7: would take that position. But until we got to that point,

399
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Speaker 7: I wasn't somebody who was actively seeking to talk politics.

400
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 7: I hate politics, and I hate it more now than

401
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 7: ever because it's got dumber. It's gotten dumber than ever

402
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 7: when the way that we're discussing this is I'm sitting

403
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 7: here holding up in front of you, Hey, this is

404
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 7: a pen, and the other side is telling me, no,

405
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 7: it's a fork, and I'm like, okay, that's the set

406
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 7: of facts that we're going to do this on. We're

407
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 7: gonna have that discussion. And so you can imagine how

408
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 7: empty and stupid it's gotten now, where like it's not

409
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 7: even a good faith discussion we're having. You don't actually

410
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 7: care to discuss this. You just want to be right,

411
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 7: and you want to keep telling me that as I

412
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 7: strive for equality for everyone, Instead of you know, me

413
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 7: asking you for equality and feeling like that's a reasonable request,

414
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 7: you're telling me at the height of white power. No,

415
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 7: you can't have equality. I'm not going to give it

416
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Speaker 7: to you. You're going to have to take it from me.

417
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 2: Well, part of it, too, is that we approach quality

418
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: from a scarcity mindset. I'm not saying you and I

419
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Speaker 2: do this, but I think that is very much how

420
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Speaker 2: the vast majority of Americans feel about it. And that

421
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: is something that color is kind of all racist to

422
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: some degree, because you know, I think one of the

423
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: wedge issues that certainly happen in the black community is

424
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 2: how they're trying to pit us against immigrants or pit

425
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 2: us against migrants, right, and so it this constant, Well,

426
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: if they get let in, then I get less, or

427
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 2: if they start taking advantage of some of these social services,

428
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Speaker 2: that means less for me.

429
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Speaker 1: So equality, the way that.

430
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Speaker 2: It's positioned in this country is that if somebody else

431
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: gets something, somebody else loses something.

432
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Speaker 1: And that, to me, is that the.

433
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Speaker 2: Root of why our politics are so toxic, particularly in

434
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: this moment.

435
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 7: It's also a great strategy to keep things unequal. If

436
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 7: you keep pitting different groups against each other, they won't

437
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 7: get to the places where the power is because there

438
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 7: are distraction tactics meant to keep us apart. It's sort

439
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 7: of It's like if you read history books, this is

440
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 7: sort of how you do all of this stuff. It's

441
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 7: a how to book.

442
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,479
Speaker 2: Do you sometimes, Dan, because I go through this, do

443
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 2: you sometimes wish that you could be the guy that

444
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: And this is not to suggest any anybody who's listened

445
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: to your show know that you do actually talk about sports,

446
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: right I know some people we probably you talk about

447
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 2: a lot of a variety of things, right, Like in

448
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: the entertainment space, like you do. You're more than just

449
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 2: the guy who's always talking about politics or race like.

450
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: You're much broader than that. But are there times or

451
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: moments or stretches where you wish you could wake up

452
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: and just be the guy that argued about who's going

453
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: to win the AFC East this year?

454
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 10: No?

455
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 7: I got bored with that pretty early in the process. Right.

456
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 7: I love sports, but what I've always loved the most

457
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 7: about sports is the sociology of sports. It's not the athletes,

458
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 7: it's how did they become that? What are the roots

459
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 7: of all of that? I can be moved by sporting events,

460
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 7: but you know how this works. I don't know if

461
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 7: you're the same sports fan now that you used to be.

462
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 7: But if you work for thirty years making the McDonald's fries,

463
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 7: they probably don't taste the same the last day as

464
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,719
Speaker 7: they did the first. So in growing up or trying

465
00:25:54,760 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 7: to grow up, I've tried to have diverse interests beyond sports,

466
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 7: And now I would say is just about the because

467
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 7: the political discourse has gotten so dumb and it's not

468
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 7: about changing anyone's mind. It's about arguing and being right.

469
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 7: Now is the first time that I have felt my

470
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 7: hands heavy in the fight because it doesn't feel like

471
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 7: we're doing anything in terms of advancing or making any

472
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 7: progress on where it is that people are entrenched. And

473
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 7: I'm like, and I'm so tired of losing listeners because

474
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 7: all of this is so polarizing, like making choices that

475
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 7: I have had to make and knowing that the cost

476
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 7: is going to be somebody out there is going to

477
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 7: think that all I do is talk about politics, when

478
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 7: all I'm trying to do is show people again and again.

479
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 7: Can you look at this, like, look at what this

480
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 7: looks like? Can can we just be a society that

481
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 7: when this does creep into sports, we remember Colin kapp

482
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 7: her Nick was simply asking people, while kneeling in front

483
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 7: of a flag super peacefully, can you stop being brutal

484
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 7: to my people? And we wrap ourselves in that flag

485
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 7: to give him the answer of no, we can't stop

486
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 7: being brutal to your people and get the fuck out

487
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 7: of the sport while you're at it.

488
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is sometimes woefully and painfully confusing.

489
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: As much as we pretend we have learned from history,

490
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 2: we have actually not learned anything from history, because like

491
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: that is just another reincarnation of obviously when you had

492
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 2: you know, Tommy and John Tommy Smith and John Carlos,

493
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: that is like another And we've run into this iteration

494
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: like a thousand times where it's like we how many

495
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: times do we have to painfully learn a lesson historically

496
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: to understand that this is not how things should actually work?

497
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: But as you know, as somebody who doves deep into

498
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: these waters of trying to navigate sports and political conversations,

499
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: it comes at a cost.

500
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: And you just alluded to it. You said you've had

501
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 1: to make choices.

502
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: What do you mean by you what do you mean

503
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: by that statement that you've had to make choices in

504
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: terms of how you navigate this?

505
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 7: Sure, I don't know if the public at large has,

506
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 7: and especially that your audience understands because you've made it

507
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 7: look so easy. I don't know that everyone totally understands

508
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 7: how hard it was for you to leave ESPN. You

509
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 7: and I haven't actually talked about this, but I in

510
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 7: creating our own media company and realizing and trying to

511
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 7: hire some of my friends that none of them actually

512
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 7: want to leave the safety of ESPN because it's a

513
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 7: good place to be. That's much safer than the waters

514
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 7: that I'm presently in, where I have the terrifying responsibility

515
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 7: of forty five employees and I've got to keep my

516
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 7: numbers up in a way I've never cared about, because

517
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 7: all I was interested in is doing the show correctly

518
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 7: and hoping that people would stay with me. But you

519
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 7: go free, and whether it is Dan Patt did his

520
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 7: show from his attic for a long time, and no

521
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 7: one has any idea how actually hard that was, because

522
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 7: he too made it look easy. This has not been

523
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 7: in any way easy for me. I need to keep

524
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 7: our customers. They feed the employees who now have kids

525
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 7: that I knew when they were kids, and I'm now

526
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 7: responsible for that. And so what is the cost when

527
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 7: I have Billy Corbin do because Miami, because he's on

528
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 7: the side of every right thing here politically in Miami,

529
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 7: but it's an unpopular thing. The cost is listeners. The

530
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 7: cost is I'm done with Lebtzart. He talks too much

531
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 7: politics when it's not even my show. I'm just supporting

532
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 7: a show that is on our network because it's important

533
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 7: to show just how woefully corrupt Miami is in ways

534
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 7: that are inarguable, Like it's not even hey, we can

535
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 7: agree to disagree on this, No, these are the set

536
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 7: of facts on our entire government in Miami is a

537
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 7: banana republic that is more corrupt than probably any in

538
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 7: the United States. And with journalism dying, Jamel like dying

539
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 7: in a way that has that Orange oh fucking taking

540
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 7: a hatchet to it with something as simple as fake news,

541
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 7: because so many people don't know what the difference is

542
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 7: between the New York Times bleach your report and just

543
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 7: somebody writing something on a QAnon website, like there's no

544
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 7: difference in credibility between those things, and some of those

545
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,959
Speaker 7: people believe the New York Times is less credible because

546
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 7: of the damage we've done to mainstream media I think

547
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 7: it's important to protect those things because front of lobe

548
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 7: for me is always his freedom. And I recognize that

549
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 7: journalism is a checks and balances for government when you've

550
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 7: got presently Jamel And this part's crazy to me. I

551
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 7: don't know how Donald Trump sleeps at night because of

552
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 7: the following he's in the middle of. Right now, you

553
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 7: win and knock over democracy, or you die in prison.

554
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 7: Those are your two choices because you want to change

555
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 7: all the rules on how all of this works. You

556
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 7: want a jerrymanned and put federal judges in and have

557
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court be bought so that you can be

558
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 7: in charge to stay out of prison. And I want

559
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 7: a journalism that is checks and balances to that, and

560
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 7: it's being threatened. And so now I have to pay

561
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 7: Billy Corbin to please do this for me so that

562
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 7: my show can have a soul during an important time.

563
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to get to the journalism part because

564
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: I don't know if you realize this or even if

565
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: you like this role, but you have sort of become

566
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: sports media sports journalisms. Let me be very clear, there

567
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: is a difference between sports media and sports journalism. You

568
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: have become sports journalism's sort of unofficial ombudsmen in many

569
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: respects with how I think a lot of your criticisms

570
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: of our industry are not just fair, I think they

571
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: are scarily accurate. But before we get to that part,

572
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: let's get to the part we talked that you were

573
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: just mentioning about leaving ESPN and what that looks like

574
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: and making it look easy. You know a lot of

575
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: people don't know that like or would not imagine somebody

576
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: like you, or maybe even somebody like me. We never

577
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: got in this to be entrepreneurs, like I did not

578
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: get in this to own a company or in my case, companies.

579
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: I did not get in this to do that. In fact,

580
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: I found the idea totally repulsive, because you know, as journalists,

581
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: you're sort of used to operating as an independent force

582
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: doing your own thing, and then all of a sudden,

583
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: through different scenarios and different events, you become responsible for others.

584
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: And as exciting as that is, on.

585
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: Some regard or at least the idea of bringing people

586
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: with you and making sure that their lives are in

587
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: a place, you know, where they can take care of

588
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: their families and that kind of thing, but it does

589
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: come with a draining emotional responsibility. I'll be the first

590
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: to admit I've not always handled that responsibility. Well, So

591
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: what I want to ask you is how have you

592
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: been able to find your way in these tricky entrepreneur

593
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: or waters where now responsible for other people? And people

594
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: don't get that that's a different responsibility, Like you can

595
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: hate me all you want, but unfortunately that does come

596
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: at a cost. That means that, like, if I lose people,

597
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: I can't pay this person what I want to pay them,

598
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: Like it is just such a sometimes terrible balancing at

599
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: So how have you managed or how do you manage

600
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: to deal with that poorly? That's about the best answer

601
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: I have.

602
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 7: To I mean, I just keep falling on my face

603
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 7: and try to convince myself that failure is learning, and

604
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 7: I tend to be pretty hard on myself, so failure

605
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 7: feels like failure. But I, like you didn't have any

606
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 7: interest in entrepreneur I was a bit forced into it, right.

607
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 7: You let go my mentor's son without telling me as

608
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 7: a final act of you know, trying to make my

609
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 7: life more difficult, and you hurt me in a way

610
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 7: that I have to make a choice about what I

611
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 7: do next, and though I would have stayed in the

612
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 7: safety of ESPN for a long time.

613
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: If and you're referring to Chris Cody.

614
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 7: Yes, I'm sorry, so Greg Cody is one of my

615
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 7: best friends in the world. And ESPN. It was a

616
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 7: final straw because we were running up against this for

617
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 7: a while and I was looking for an exit ramp

618
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 7: and they gave it to me when they fired or

619
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 7: they let him go without telling me, and so we

620
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 7: had to make a choice, and they pushed me into

621
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 7: something I wouldn't have chosen otherwise. You know, my wife, Valerie,

622
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 7: I couldn't have done this without her either, And so

623
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 7: I get pushed into entrepreneurship. When I'm telling you, Jamel

624
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 7: zero interest in it. I was very happy having my

625
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 7: professional life only be something that I had to worry

626
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 7: about me and then a company would take care of

627
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 7: my company, the people who kept me company. Somebody else

628
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 7: would take the burden of of paying those people. But yeah,

629
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 7: there's just been a lot of struggling, a lot of learning,

630
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:12,439
Speaker 7: and thankfully we're in a time where we've got one

631
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 7: of the five or ten things in this space that

632
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 7: someone's willing to pay a lot of money for DraftKings

633
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 7: so that we can keep doing it, which to me

634
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 7: is honestly the measure of success. Do I get to

635
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 7: keep doing it? That is, I don't want any of

636
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 7: the other stuff? Do I get to keep fucking around

637
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 7: with my friends, having fun around this and us having

638
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 7: a thing that makes people happy or smile and more

639
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 7: than that, because we're a fairly addictive cotton candy for

640
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 7: people helps some people who are lonely at bad jobs

641
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 7: or jobs that they hate get a little bit of

642
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 7: medicine that for four of the eight hours they could

643
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 7: listen to what it is that we're doing and be

644
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 7: slightly less alone.

645
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna ask this next question because I've since

646
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: the answer, but mostly because I know the enormous responsibility

647
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 2: and enormous effort that it takes to do what you do.

648
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: But how much longer do you think you can do this?

649
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 7: On the days that I'm happy, they're going to have

650
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 7: to put me in this seat ten years after my

651
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 7: death to get people to still keep paying for whatever

652
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 7: our show is in its remains. But on the days

653
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 7: where I'm unhappy, and there have been more of those

654
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 7: over the last I'm not even gonna say three and

655
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 7: a half years my last eighteen months, said ESPN. Well,

656
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 7: as soon as Skipper left, basically as soon as the

657
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 7: CEO of Metal Lark left the ESPN, the world fell

658
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 7: in on me. I lost what I didn't know was

659
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 7: protection because I just wanted him to leave me alone,

660
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 7: and I would leave him alone. And the whole way

661
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 7: I ended up at ESPN. I won't bore you with

662
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 7: too many of the details, but I was CIA's worst

663
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 7: client for ten years because I insisted on doing it

664
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 7: in Miami. Everybody wanted me to do it in Los

665
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 7: Angeles and New York. The answer was always no, can

666
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 7: you make something more Miami than the Miami thing I have?

667
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 7: And Skipper had to get the Latin demo, just like

668
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 7: you were the only black woman columnist in America. For

669
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 7: god knows how long, I was the only name that

670
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 7: kept coming to him on Hispanic journalist, how do you

671
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 7: make ESPN a little more ethnic, more diverse? They're in Bristol, Connecticut,

672
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 7: old thinking, white thinking, how do you do it? I

673
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 7: was the name that kept coming up for him, and

674
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 7: the way that he made it more Miami is like

675
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 7: I'll hire your father, your brother can do the art.

676
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 7: The ocean will be behind you at the Cleveland or hotel.

677
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 7: And that's when I went to work for ESPN because

678
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 7: he wanted to have He had learned that and I

679
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 7: think you were one of these people. He had learned

680
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 7: that he couldn't change the thousands of people at ESPN,

681
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 7: so he was going to hire ten firestarters to just

682
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 7: see where it is that people would get influenced on stuff.

683
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 7: And what ended up happening is all the fire starters

684
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 7: had to run from the burning building because they wanted to.

685
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: And I've joked with you about this off air, and

686
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 2: to this day, as much as I loved highly Questionable,

687
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: I still part of me wants to kill you because

688
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: my mother to this day still ask me why we

689
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: can't do a show together because of your.

690
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: Ass and I'm like, just because you saw Dan do

691
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: it and you left me no.

692
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: Choice but to make continual excuses. I'm like, I you're

693
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: not poppy, but that's okay.

694
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 7: It is one. I mean, it's obviously the greatest professional

695
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 7: blessing I've ever had, but it's the biggest miracle I

696
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 7: ever pulled off professionally. Jamelle. The idea that my father,

697
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 7: who doesn't know that much about sports and was trying

698
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 7: to do the show in his second language would steal

699
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 7: the stardom from me on my own baze. But Jamel,

700
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 7: on a show that has me and Bomani Jones on it,

701
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,959
Speaker 7: you're telling me my father's going to be the start.

702
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: Look.

703
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: I have a lot more that I want to ask you,

704
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: particular as it relates to our profession.

705
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: But you know, before we get.

706
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: Into that, we're just going to take a quick break

707
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: and come right back more with Dan LeBatard. As I

708
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier in our conversation, Dan, whether intended or unintended,

709
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 2: not have a feeling sort of unintended. You have become

710
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: like the onbudsman of our profession, and for those who

711
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: are not familiar with what that that is, we believe

712
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: it or not. In media newspapers in particular, that's where

713
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 2: I think that position originated with it was somebody's job

714
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: to sort of keep the newspaper or the media outlet

715
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,359
Speaker 2: in some cases because ESPN had unbudsman a couple of times, right,

716
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: is that your job was to sort of take a

717
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: lens to that entity that you were working for and

718
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 2: in fairness and the point of accuracy, sort of cover

719
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 2: them the way they cover other people, like when something

720
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: went wrong at the newspaper where they mishandled something, it

721
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: was the budsman's.

722
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: Job to sort of deliver to the public.

723
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: They were operating on the behalf of the public of

724
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: being the checks and balances for the newspaper, and it

725
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: was a public position. Again, as I mentioned, ESPN used

726
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: to have this position for ESPN dot com and generally

727
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 2: things that happen at the network, and Dan, you sort

728
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: of have become the person in that role when it

729
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 2: comes to telling people the things that are good and

730
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: are bad about our industry, and many of which I

731
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: think are unlike anything both of us have probably seen

732
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: in our career, particularly as we're in this space now now.

733
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: You said journalism is dying. I hate to be this pessimistic.

734
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: I think we have lost that fight, and I know

735
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: that's probably a terrible thing to say when you're still

736
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: in it, but there's just so much now that is

737
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: not just foreign but sort of unacceptable with the way

738
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 2: that we cover things, both in sports and politics and

739
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: all the things that sort of matter to our American culture.

740
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: You said is dying, as in like we're still in

741
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: of Do you feel like we still are waging a fight,

742
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 2: or do you feel as if the fight has been lost?

743
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 7: Fair enough your correction, You are right, I am wrong.

744
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 7: I've told people nine or ten years ago who care

745
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 7: about journalism the way I do, Hey, we've lost. It's

746
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 7: over like it's it was a long time ago that

747
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 7: I said that we have lost. But the ombudsman role

748
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 7: that I took at ESPN, and thank you for being

749
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 7: discerning enough to notice it, because I don't know how

750
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 7: many people would say that about me, but it was something.

751
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 7: One of the criticisms I get all the time is, oh,

752
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 7: look at Lebatade, so bitter now after he's left the place,

753
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 7: criticizing the place, And I'm like, I thought that was

754
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 7: my job while I was still there. Like some of

755
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 7: the biggest fights that I had at ESPN with executives

756
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 7: was trying to explain to them how much more credibility

757
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 7: we would all have if we covered the worldwide leader

758
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 7: in sports the way the world Wide Leader in Sports

759
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 7: covers athletes. But anytime they had a problem there, it

760
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 7: was hided in the shadows. And I'm like, now, if

761
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 7: you let me talk about it and explain, here's where

762
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 7: the company was wrong. If you trust me, to be

763
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 7: someone who's going to have a journalistic integrity. You'll make

764
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 7: all of us stronger by allowing me to be someone

765
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 7: who's critical of the place in a way that's meant

766
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 7: in no way to be self I mean, I shouldn't

767
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 7: say in no way to be self serving, because of

768
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 7: course it's going to help my credibility and make me

769
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 7: seem more dangerous if I'm the person willing to criticize

770
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 7: the man the way David Letterman would criticize his network

771
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 7: employer John Oliver. Does it now, Like, of course, you

772
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 7: elevate everyone when you give a journalist that freedom. But

773
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 7: I did feel and you could speak to this better

774
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 7: than I can, because maybe I don't have an appraisal

775
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 7: that's accurate here, or maybe there's too much ego in it.

776
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 7: I did feel like I kind of earned it, and

777
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 7: I did feel like there aren't a whole lot of

778
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 7: people there journalistically who would argue with much of any

779
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 7: of what I was generally saying. They just didn't want

780
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 7: out in publics that think about what I'm saying here. Jamal,

781
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 7: the worldwide leader in sports, covers everyone with a microscope

782
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 7: that is scalding, like scalding anyone, an athlete steps in

783
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 7: a pothole and we are there to cover it with

784
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 7: a great deal of intensity. Why when the thing comes

785
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 7: your way, and again, you're the world wide leader in sports,

786
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 7: why would you go hide under a blanket like you're

787
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 7: a really powerful entity. You got all of Disney's fuck

788
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 7: you money. You can do the job, however it is

789
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 7: that you want to do it. What's the point of

790
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 7: having all the world's fuck you money and never telling

791
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 7: anybody fuck you?

792
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 3: Yeah?

793
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 2: And ESPN, as as you know, never saw it this way,

794
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: because I think that's a way to actually gain credibility

795
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 2: with the audience, when you are willing to say or

796
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,959
Speaker 2: at least when your personalities are allowed to say, hey,

797
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 2: this is.

798
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: Where ESPN got it wrong.

799
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: And as you said, kind of look at them even

800
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: though we're you know, at that point, we're all getting

801
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: our paychecks from them. But I think the audience respects

802
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: you more when you don't treat them like they're stupid,

803
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: Like they can see it, okay, they can see what

804
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: is happening, and we're pretending like this is not happening.

805
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: And to me, that's losing credibility with the audience.

806
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 7: It's Jamel the thing that you have such a unique

807
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 7: vantage point on that. Perhaps because it's been a generation ago,

808
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 7: many people don't even remember it. ESPN kept getting more

809
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 7: and more credibility because in the Sports Century series they

810
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 7: would sit down journalists who would tell stories and then

811
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 7: have these documentaries that had all of this richness. Because

812
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 7: the journalists had all the stories, it would be me

813
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 7: and Mitch Album and Mike Lupeka doing the essays on

814
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 7: television that were meant to be journalistic. Then when PTI

815
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 7: and Around the Horn come, they are literally trafficking in

816
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 7: the names of newspapers because Skipper wants this to be

817
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 7: a coast to coast company that has Chicago Tribune newsroom

818
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 7: behind it, Denver Post newsroom, La Times newsroom. So you're

819
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 7: trafficking in the credibility of newspapers while taking the columnists

820
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 7: who are supposed to be watchdogs and giving them all

821
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,439
Speaker 7: of the television cotton candy. That ends up ending those

822
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 7: newspapers because everyone runs to the money of television, and

823
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 7: now your watchdogs can't actually say anything honest. They're not

824
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 7: watchdogging anymore. They're collecting the paychecks. As we slowly burn

825
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 7: up the credibility ESPN grabs the parts that it wants

826
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 7: and discards the parts that it doesn't and becomes a

827
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 7: journalism company that never had to be a journalism company.

828
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 7: Like they didn't have to choose that. There's not a

829
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 7: j in ESPN. It's entertainment and sports, it's not there's

830
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 7: not a journalism in there. They chose it, and now

831
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 7: they fairly obviously are getting out of that business in

832
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 7: a way that shakes and rattles the entire industry because

833
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 7: it's super interesting the way it's happening.

834
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the part that I fear is that

835
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: when you look across our landscape, not only is ESPN,

836
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: they have obviously being the worldwide leader them getting out

837
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 2: of the journalism industry or the journalism part of it.

838
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: And some journalism, some journalism still goes on there, but

839
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: the reality is like outside the lines is the shell

840
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: of itself. E sixty doesn't largely exist anymore, and you

841
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: look at how real sports is not there anymore, like

842
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 2: these sports investigative long form sink your teeth in type

843
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 2: of journalism is just absolutely obliterated at this point in

844
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: our industry, and I fear about how that is going

845
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: to maintain a level of a lack of a complete

846
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: lack of transparency, particularly by these behemoth leagues and places

847
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 2: like they already got away with a lot, they're going

848
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: to get away with monstrous things because there's nobody keeping

849
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: their eye on the store because as an industry, we've

850
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: just decided that just isn't profitable anymore. So with that

851
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: being said, though, Dan, given that we both have been

852
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: able to attain a level of fame and money through

853
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: the very thing that is killing our business, how do

854
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: you sort of resign or look at your place in

855
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: the industry now, given that it's changed so dramatically from

856
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: where your career started, and even at the midpoint in

857
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: your career.

858
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 7: Just because you're losing the fight, or even know that

859
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 7: you're going into the fight and you're going to lose,

860
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 7: it doesn't mean that it's not a fight worth fighting.

861
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 7: And I would say to you that wherever it is

862
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 7: that the most ardent loyalty exists in our audience. And

863
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 7: I will tell the people listening to this, it's LeBatard

864
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 7: and Friends on YouTube. We are now on Peacock, we

865
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 7: are now on Max. We have built something that has

866
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 7: an audience that travels with us, at least because many

867
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 7: of those people do value that. They value that I

868
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 7: am and we are something that is trying to stand

869
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 7: for something, even if it might be a losing fight.

870
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 7: You're not going to stop fighting for racial equality, even

871
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 7: as the fight gets dumber and dumber. You you're not

872
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 7: gonna stop fighting for it. Even though you witnessed what

873
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 7: I witnessed, which was after George Floyd, all of those

874
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 7: same corporations, it seemed like a genuine movement. I was

875
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 7: tricked by it, like I thought there might be actual

876
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 7: change here. I know, I know, but yeah, right correct.

877
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 7: I thought that it felt good enough to hope and it. Yes,

878
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 7: I am naive, I can be a fool. But corporations

879
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 7: reverting back to the hedge fund safety of all we

880
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 7: have to do is profit is what makes it appalling

881
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 7: to me in a way that I don't even think

882
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 7: people notice, Jamelle. The history of this is such that

883
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 7: whatever the television anchorman used to be in your wartime

884
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 7: times in a different America, John Stewart became, by Poul

885
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 7: the most credible journalist in America for about ten years

886
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 7: as a comedian, simply because he was doing journalism a

887
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 7: little bit differently and he became a trusted newsman. Polling said,

888
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 7: he's your most trusted newsman. To have that guy go

889
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 7: to Apple and do a legitimately great, difficult show when

890
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 7: Apple doesn't have to worry about anyone and Apple keeps

891
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 7: choosing safety instead of employing someone who does good work

892
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 7: because they have relationships with China and everything else. For

893
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 7: them to run off John Stewart and not be able

894
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 7: to support something that feels like it's on the right

895
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 7: side of history is excellent, is meticulous, is something that

896
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 7: should make any entity proud, like what are we doing?

897
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 7: What are we doing? When the journalists who keep us

898
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 7: safe on the right fights are so distrusted by everyone

899
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 7: that even the giant businesses that don't need your money

900
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 7: because they make adapters every every week that fail in

901
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 7: a year so they can sell you more adapters. And

902
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 7: my phone has so many Apple charges jamale that I

903
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 7: have no idea what I'm being charged for. They can

904
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 7: charge me for anything, and it's like, yeah, that's a

905
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 7: good cost. And they're doing that to everybody for them

906
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 7: not to be able to support what's right, like come on,

907
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 7: what are we what are we doing?

908
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: Well, as you know, are there are a lot of people

909
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: who think a lot differently, and one of the people

910
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: who thinks a little bit differently is your friend and

911
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: someone I have known also for a long time in

912
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: Stephen A. Smith, right, who has become the face of

913
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: ESPN firmly in the conversation of maybe most successful journalists ever.

914
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 2: Given what the empire he's been able to build around himself.

915
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: You and him had a wonderful conversation on his show,

916
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 2: The Steve Nay Smith Show, his podcast, which is on YouTube,

917
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: and I found this part to be hilarious and I

918
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: love the sense in which you took it, So I'm

919
00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 2: gonna play this clip right now.

920
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard someone take these.

921
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 2: Particular kind of insults as well as you tick them,

922
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: So everybody take a listen.

923
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 7: You do seem to be a bit sanctimonious. Man.

924
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 8: I'm not gonna use the word hypocritical, because I think

925
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 8: that's harsh, and I don't think you deserve that, especially

926
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 8: from your buddy, who is.

927
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 7: Me but sank demonious. I just got off the phone

928
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 7: with my man, Mike Willbond. He's listening right now. I'm

929
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 7: a total a few men, and he was like, this.

930
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 8: We both love Dan, we love he's our brother, but

931
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 8: you tell his sanctimonious ass to calm down. That is

932
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 8: a quote from Mike Willbond, and I would echo that quote.

933
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 7: Dan Jamel. He's a really good arguer. He is very

934
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 7: good at debate. And I think it's fair to accuse

935
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 7: me of being so strident in tone sometimes that I

936
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 7: get the way of my message because of my conviction

937
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 7: that I am absolutely right on something. So it's a criticism.

938
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 7: I think that is fair of me, that that perception.

939
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 7: I can only argue against it so much because I

940
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 7: understand how Stephen A. Smith would think that he and

941
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 7: I are doing the same thing when I don't think

942
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 7: we're doing the same thing. But he's like, why are

943
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 7: you better than me? Because I do debate television for

944
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 7: the lowest common denominator that casts a wide, wide net.

945
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 7: And I tell you publicly that my main goal, or

946
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 7: one of my chief goals, is to make money for

947
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 7: my bosses. That I am in the business of making

948
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 7: money for my bosses. He's a good businessman, and that

949
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 7: is a prudent model, and he is. His story at

950
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 7: ESPN is unlike any in the history of the media

951
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 7: business to be fired and make it all the way back,

952
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 7: and that is all the way.

953
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: Back, become the face of the entire company.

954
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 7: Right, And so that is a good way to do it.

955
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 7: And I and I will appear sanctimonious and self righteous

956
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 7: if I tell you that's not what I chose. I

957
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 7: chose to be a niche thing. That wouldn't be that

958
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 7: kind of that wouldn't be what he is. And see,

959
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 7: I don't want to say he's a company man, because

960
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 7: he's a company man like he's I can't believe what

961
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 7: he has built. But he'll also tell you at every

962
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 7: turn that he lives in service of making his boss's money.

963
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 7: And that's just not what I do. And if he

964
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,479
Speaker 7: were to take that as criticism that I'm being self

965
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 7: righteous and sanctimonies, as if I'm better than him, I

966
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 7: understand how he would arrive at that position, even though

967
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 7: I don't think I'm better than him. And in fact,

968
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 7: I would say at television he's a good deal better

969
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 7: than me.

970
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think probably you know, your lived experience

971
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 2: very much shapes how you look at things, and you know,

972
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 2: for those people who don't know. But Stephen A was

973
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 2: let go by ESPN right, he was persona non grata,

974
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 2: Like when I got to ESPN, quite frankly, his show

975
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,919
Speaker 2: that he used to have was still going, and then

976
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 2: when all of that kind of dissipated and he was

977
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 2: off the network, it was a very frosty time, and

978
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: so he the media business wasn't where is now where

979
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 2: you can kind of be independent, And while there is

980
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: some struggle to it, the thought of not being at

981
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: ESPN is not crazy anymore. Like when Dan Patrick left,

982
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 2: people thought he was insane for leaving ESPN. And so

983
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 2: when Stephen A when their relationship disintegrated there, it was

984
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 2: it put him in like a no man's land, and

985
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 2: it took a big fight and a lot of clawing

986
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: for him to get back on the network. So I

987
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 2: think he probably looks at the experience much differently because

988
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 2: he saw a cold life without ESPN.

989
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 7: Oh and Jamel, like, I mean, he's a black dude,

990
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 7: and it's just all it's just all of it would

991
00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 7: be much harder for him. Like I I am in

992
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 7: awe that Stephen A. Smith, after being fired by ESPN,

993
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 7: has absolutely, unequivocally become the modern day Howard Cosell. I

994
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 7: cannot believe the degree of difficulty on that as a

995
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 7: fired black man with a failed show on that network,

996
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 7: I can't help but be awed by that, because he

997
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 7: played the game flawlessly to get the things that he wanted,

998
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 7: and the degree of difficulty on that, you'd be in

999
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 7: the rare position of being able to understand how that

1000
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 7: is as a black woman. In fact, stephen A and

1001
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 7: I have had these conversations, and I'm not betraying any

1002
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 7: confidences when I say so, like in an assortment of

1003
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 7: fights and conflicts that I had at ESPN, where by

1004
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 7: the way, he's the only one telling me, calling me

1005
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 7: up and saying to me, Dan, you can't go against

1006
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 7: the company publicly there. You can't do what you're doing

1007
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 7: on that one. I can't help but be amazed at

1008
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 7: what it is that he has made there of himself

1009
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 7: around so many obstacles, because you can speak uniquely what

1010
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 7: he has said to me a number of times, Dan,

1011
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 7: you're not black like you can do that. You can

1012
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 7: do X, Y and Z. I cannot do that when

1013
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 7: I'm yelling about bosses and stuff, When I'm yelling about

1014
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 7: this person's incompetent. Is this person evil or just incompetent?

1015
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,800
Speaker 7: He's like, you can do whatever it is that you're

1016
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 7: doing there. I can't and won't do that. I have

1017
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 7: responsibility to other black journalists. I have a responsibility to

1018
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 7: the black platform. I have a responsibility to black employees

1019
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:53,479
Speaker 7: at ESPN. I can't do the things that you're doing there.

1020
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 7: That's your mess to make, not Yeah, I was.

1021
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: Of the opinion, like I think you shared that during

1022
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 2: this interview that Stephen A was probably the person who

1023
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 2: had the most freedom to say what he wants to

1024
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 2: say until Pat McAfee came along, when I realized clearly

1025
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 2: my idea of freedom was greatly distorted because Pat McAfee

1026
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 2: has disrupted the system of how they do things at

1027
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: ESPN in a way that I'm frankly stunned by, repeatedly,

1028
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 2: repeatedly stunned.

1029
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:23,959
Speaker 1: Of course, you know.

1030
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 7: How the naive tables have turned on, and Cowboy Hat

1031
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 7: might have the interesting how naive you are?

1032
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 2: You're right, I mean, I just never thought that that

1033
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 2: was possible, even.

1034
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: For a white man.

1035
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 2: I gotta be honest, because and perhaps I was. I

1036
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,439
Speaker 2: actually underestimated whiteness. And that's wild because I'm a black

1037
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 2: woman that's lived in this country for their entire lives,

1038
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,919
Speaker 2: and I underestimated whiteness and how that works. But I've

1039
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 2: seen Pat McAfee do something that I just never thought

1040
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 2: I would ever see at ESPN. And you know, many

1041
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 2: of his transgressions, if you want to put that, put

1042
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 2: him that way, well documented.

1043
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 11: You know.

1044
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 1: He flamed our old boss, Norby Williamson. He got him

1045
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: about the paint in a way that I was like, well.

1046
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 7: My, hold on, hold on, please please, if I may

1047
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 7: just correct you a little bit there, that was never

1048
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 7: my old boss.

1049
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: Oh, you're right, you're please, You're right, it was.

1050
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 7: Please be clear on that. I mean he was there.

1051
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 7: I'm not saying there, but you're not saying no. But

1052
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 7: I'm also not saying he didn't have the power to

1053
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 7: be my boss. I am simply correcting you on that

1054
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 7: person was never going to be my boss. Never mind

1055
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 7: even if he was my boss in what direct reports

1056
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 7: are that person was never going to be my boss.

1057
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: No, Like, no, well, I did not avoid that.

1058
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: I was unsuccessful at avoiding that. But that's what happens

1059
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 2: when you're a part of Sports Center. So that person

1060
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 2: was my boss. And again, as I.

1061
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: Said at the time, did o Pat McAfee did all right?

1062
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 2: But even beyond all that, with some of the things

1063
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 2: he said and done, and most recently he at the

1064
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 2: idea of actually having to practice journalism at and even

1065
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 2: though we see how his show is platform. But what

1066
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 2: I guess the rambling question I'm getting to is what

1067
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 2: do you make of the Pat McAfee effect at ESPN?

1068
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 7: Oh so super interesting. I could talk about this with

1069
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 7: you for a long time because this is my business

1070
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 7: and I care about this business. And I'm guessing we're

1071
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 7: all ready going to get aggregated in some way given

1072
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 7: how politicized both you and I are on whatever it

1073
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 7: is that it sounded like moments ago where it may

1074
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 7: have seemed like we are saying just flatly that Pat

1075
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 7: McAfee gets away with all of that, or may be

1076
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 7: perceived because of whiteness. It isn't just that because of that,

1077
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 7: It is absolutely not. I mean, he's wildly entertaining. He

1078
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 7: serves a young demo, and he comes in kicking the

1079
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 7: door down at a time, and this part is breathtaking

1080
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 7: where ESPN needs him more than he needs ESPN because

1081
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 7: all of the walls have crashed in on ESPN is

1082
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 7: renting his show, paying him a ton of money. So

1083
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 7: he could give millions of dollars to Aaron Rodgers and

1084
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 7: Bill Belichick and it's on their tab to grow his

1085
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 7: show because they don't know how to get young audience.

1086
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 7: And he's wildly charismatic and he has, you know, wrestling

1087
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 7: skills that make him counterculture in a way that people

1088
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 7: who are tired of journalism might want something different at

1089
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 7: ESPN that is pro athlete. And I have just watched

1090
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 7: in a genuine interest, right like I'm just wildly interested

1091
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 7: on Hey, does everyone else see what's happening here? And

1092
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 7: how awesome and amazing it is that it's so different

1093
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,439
Speaker 7: from the way ESPN has done different this past. Keep

1094
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 7: in mind Jamel dan Patrick tells the story and it's

1095
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 7: amazing one. And you know this, and you and I

1096
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 7: have talked about some of this about ESPN. The way

1097
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 7: leadership worked there is just don't set any precedents for

1098
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 7: anybody on anything, so no one else can say, well,

1099
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 7: he or she got that, so can I have that?

1100
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 7: The beginning of the end for me at ESPN. I

1101
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 7: don't think anybody knows this is actually that I got

1102
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 7: a T shirt company in negotiations, I got a merch

1103
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 7: company in my last negotiations, and Disney wasn't really happy

1104
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 7: with the idea that I can make my own cartoons,

1105
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 7: you know. Not surprisingly, Disney pretty proprietary about those things.

1106
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 7: So the precedent had been set that now anybody there

1107
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 7: can ask four things like that. But the famous story

1108
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 7: I tell is Dan Patrick is with Keith Oberman on

1109
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 7: a culturally groundbreaking show that was the most powerful thing

1110
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 7: of its time, and Dan Patrick wanted a television in

1111
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 7: his office so before going on Sports Center he could

1112
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 7: simply see what was happening in sports pre internet. And

1113
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 7: the answer was no, because then Keith Oberman would also

1114
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 7: want one. So if that's their system of governance since

1115
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 7: the beginning of time, imagine my shock when someone's getting

1116
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 7: drunk on thirty Guinnesses and telling all the smoke that

1117
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 7: he's got all sorts of drugs in his system because

1118
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 7: he's like, I don't care, I'm having fun. It's part

1119
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 7: of his appeal, and it's something that Disney signed up

1120
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 7: for in a way that breaks all precedents. And I

1121
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 7: obviously welcome all the anarchists who changed the game, like,

1122
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 7: because what ends up happening with anything I say when

1123
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 7: I point this stuff out to people like, Hey, they

1124
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 7: told me this was coming. They told me that whatever

1125
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 7: I was doing that they wanted more sec football that

1126
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 7: their customers want, and they're entitled to. They run their

1127
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 7: business the way they want. They don't have to make

1128
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 7: it about journalism. So they choose this guy who's not

1129
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 7: about journalism, and they allow him to urinate all over

1130
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 7: journalism and it only makes him more popular. While it's

1131
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 7: kind of the opposite of what it is that we

1132
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 7: came up and back when ESPN needed the name Chicago

1133
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 7: Tribune in the newsroom because that's what they were going

1134
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 7: for back then.

1135
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want people to understand, because you know

1136
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 2: you're right, and I know how headlines work, is that

1137
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 2: there will be a headline that says Dan Levatard and

1138
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 2: Jamel Hill says Pat McAfee's.

1139
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 1: Only successful because he's white.

1140
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 2: Like, No, I am not saying that at all, Like

1141
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 2: he's successful for all the reasons that you mentioned that

1142
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: have nothing to do with his whiteness. However, what I

1143
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 2: will say is that I do think that his behavior,

1144
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that in a wagging the finger

1145
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 2: kind of way, is more palatable because.

1146
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: Of who he is.

1147
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 2: Because he is a youngish white man that is specifically

1148
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 2: has an audience that is also youngish, and there are

1149
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 2: certain things that he can do that Frankly, I don't

1150
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: know that a black person in his position would be

1151
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: able to do those things on that network. And that's

1152
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 2: not to say that that's any in any ways his fault.

1153
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 2: But like, listen, I remember when Mike and I had

1154
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 2: His and Hers and we did a boys in the

1155
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 2: Hood skit which called for you know, ice Cube to

1156
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 2: be drinking a forty ounce, right, Like it's the infamous.

1157
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: Scene where him and Cuba Gooding.

1158
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 2: It's toward the end of the movie and he's just

1159
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 2: lamenting about all the violence in his neighborhood, and we

1160
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 2: basically recreated that scene and I was I told one

1161
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:31,479
Speaker 2: of the production assistants, go get me a real forty ounce,

1162
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 2: and they were just like, we can't possibly do that, Like,

1163
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 2: we can't have you drinking a forty on there, And

1164
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 2: I was like, in order for me to sell it,

1165
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 2: this has got to be a real forty and I

1166
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 2: just wanted to sort of test the boundaries. And the

1167
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 2: conversations around that forty hous were just nauseating, right, They're

1168
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 2: just soul killing. It just sucks all.

1169
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: The creativity out of you. We got it done. I drink.

1170
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 2: I tell people all the time, real forty houtse Yes,

1171
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: I drink, and I'm pretty sure I'll go down in history,

1172
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 2: although maybe not so much because McAfee is there as

1173
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 2: the only person in he it's being history to drink

1174
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 2: an actual forty ounce of beer on air. I'm very

1175
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:08,919
Speaker 2: proud of this, but I guess what ultimately why I

1176
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 2: also am as equally fascinated by the effect of this.

1177
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 2: It's not about Pat McAfee being the first, it's about

1178
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 2: who will be the second.

1179
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 1: Will there be a second?

1180
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 2: Will Is this an experiment that they will be willing

1181
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 2: to try over and over again? And I don't know

1182
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 2: that that will that will be the case. I don't

1183
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 2: know that they're gonna somebody who doesn't look like Pat McAfee.

1184
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 2: They're gonna welcome them saying yes, I take edibles, Yes

1185
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 2: I do all this stuff. Yeah I'm high, Yeah I'm drunk. Yeah,

1186
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 2: I don't care about my bosses, fuck everybody like.

1187
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if them or any.

1188
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 2: Or many media companies are in the position to extend

1189
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 2: that to people who only look one way and I

1190
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 2: don't know if I'm being wrong about that or whatever,

1191
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 2: but that's just my sense.

1192
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 7: I think that they're already doing it, and McAfee will

1193
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 7: be the pioneer or the trendsetter here and we will

1194
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 7: see what Shannon Sharp and Steven A. Smith get to

1195
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 7: do with the same power. And I don't know whether

1196
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 7: they have the same lack of fear. They don't seem

1197
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 7: to run their lives quite the same way that McAfee does,

1198
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 7: but we will. We will see how the rules are

1199
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 7: or aren't different if they get into any of these things,

1200
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 7: and then we'll have all the arguments around that. I

1201
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 7: did hear I heard Shannon the other day because he's

1202
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 7: on the same path of owning his own stuff and

1203
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 7: being a brand so powerful that he doesn't have to

1204
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 7: actually respect quote unquote bosses at ESPN. They report to

1205
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 7: Eiger and Pataro's there, that's the CEO of Disney and

1206
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 7: the president of ESPN. And I'm putting report in quote

1207
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 7: marks because I don't think that Shannon Sharp actually has

1208
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 7: to listen to much of anybody anymore because he's got

1209
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 7: his own thing, and he he also doesn't need ESPN.

1210
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 7: ESPN needs him like that's the seismic shift, right, It's

1211
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 7: it's that's always been a production company. The dirty secret

1212
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,439
Speaker 7: about ESPN. I say this on my show all the time.

1213
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 7: Nobody notices this, but you do realize that all of us,

1214
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 7: on all the other shows are just the infomercials to

1215
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,480
Speaker 7: get you to the games, right, Like, these shows don't

1216
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 7: have to be any good, they don't have to be

1217
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 7: any popular. They don't even have to do numbers. Really,

1218
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 7: like whatever First Take does is between you know, five

1219
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 7: hundred thousand and a million in numbers, and at the

1220
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 7: height of ESPN they had one hundred and twenty million subscribers,

1221
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 7: so one hundred and nineteen million of them weren't paying

1222
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 7: to watch, weren't watching First Take, and we're paying anyway

1223
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 7: to not watch First Take. So all of the shows

1224
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 7: are just infomercials and they can do whatever they want

1225
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 7: with the shows. I know. Roy Wood Junior tells me

1226
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 7: that in comedy he keeps an eye on sports television

1227
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 7: because it's just so cheap. It can just you can

1228
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 7: make it so much more cheaply two hours of television

1229
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 7: because it's just people talking that all of this stuff

1230
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 7: is Actually there's not a lot of incentive to make

1231
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 7: any of it any good because just get them to

1232
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 7: the games. And now they have a little more pressure

1233
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 7: because of the streaming has taken so many of their

1234
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,479
Speaker 7: built in advantages. Right, it's not one hundred and twenty

1235
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 7: million people anymore who are paying for this and not

1236
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:20,599
Speaker 7: watching it. It's whatever it is, sixty million, seventy million

1237
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 7: because people are off the grid. Streaming is eating up

1238
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:27,679
Speaker 7: some of the numbers, and they now have to they

1239
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 7: have to get different audiences in the tent. What is

1240
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 7: Shannon Sharp's audience? Hey, come over here, I want you

1241
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 7: to watch Shannon on our thing. So what do you think? Like,

1242
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 7: I think Shannon Sharp can get away with a good deal,

1243
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 7: because when I saw him interviewed the other day, there

1244
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,560
Speaker 7: was something. There are a lot of reports about McAfee

1245
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 7: and Steven a are fighting or discord on the set

1246
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 7: of First Take, and Shannon Sharp's like, what discord can

1247
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 7: there be with me? I show up, I sit in

1248
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 7: a closet. I don't do any production meetings. I don't

1249
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,560
Speaker 7: talk to any producers. I don't talk to any vice presidents.

1250
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 7: I deal with whatever it is three or four people

1251
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 7: at the company. Don't put me in your discord. I

1252
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 7: don't talk to anybody, and he doesn't have to imagine

1253
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:07,640
Speaker 7: us trying to do the job that way. This is

1254
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,759
Speaker 7: what they've welcomed in the door. And here's the funny

1255
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,480
Speaker 7: thing about it, Jamel, and interesting to you. I imagine

1256
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 7: these athletes have so much more confidence than the journalists do.

1257
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 7: So like so many athletes I've talked to at ESPN

1258
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 7: who look at me and just in general the hair

1259
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,759
Speaker 7: business and vanity business that is television, after a lifetime

1260
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 7: of being coached, and they say, why are you guys

1261
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 7: so insecure? Like we're used to criticism, We're used to,

1262
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 7: you know, corrections coaching, And so I just think that

1263
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,600
Speaker 7: Shannon Sharp and Pat McAfee and people like them, with

1264
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 7: their own brand and their own power and a lack

1265
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 7: of fear, can actually come in and be totally unafraid

1266
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 7: of bosses because they're just producers. It's just a production

1267
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 7: company and it's been making infomercials for a long time

1268
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 7: with those produce just trying to hold on desperately to

1269
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 7: the power that now McAfee knocks out of their hands

1270
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 7: and Shannon Sharp knocks on out of the hands because like, no,

1271
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 7: I'm going to go talk to Iger. I don't need

1272
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 7: to listen to you.

1273
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 2: Well, Dan, I want to thank you for joining me

1274
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 2: on this episode of His Politics. I appreciate your continued support.

1275
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 2: You're a dear friend of mine. You know how I

1276
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 2: feel about you on a personal level, So for you

1277
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,440
Speaker 2: to allow me this time with you is really magnificent

1278
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 2: because I know you do not do this off.

1279
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,639
Speaker 7: Tell you again, as I've told you before, that beyond

1280
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 7: admiring you, I genuinely love you. You are a person

1281
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 7: that I think is very special in a lot of

1282
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 7: different ways. So thank you for having me here, and

1283
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 7: thank you for being like one of the best guests

1284
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 7: we've had for a really long time in our universe.

1285
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: All right, appreciate you, Dan.

1286
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 2: I hope you all enjoyed that conversation and have enjoyed

1287
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 2: this initial episode of Spolitics so far. Now, how comes

1288
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 2: the time when I ask you for a favor, or

1289
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 2: rather make a request I want to hear from you.

1290
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 2: Yes you Now, I know you will listen to episodes

1291
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 2: of Politics and have questions of your own.

1292
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 1: So every week I'm going to answer a.

1293
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 2: Question from you all about anything that you might have

1294
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,480
Speaker 2: been thinking as you have been listening to an episode

1295
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 2: of Spolitics. All you have to do is email your

1296
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 2: question or send in a video to Spolitics twenty twenty four.

1297
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:28,480
Speaker 1: At gmail dot com.

1298
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 2: That's Politics twenty twenty four at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: And in case you're wondering, here's how you.

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Speaker 2: Spell spolitics s p O l I t I c

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01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 2: S s p O l I t.

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01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: I c s. Hopefully you got that.

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01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:48,680
Speaker 2: Also, make sure to follow Spolitics pod on Instagram and

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01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 2: on TikTok. Now, I know you enjoyed this first episode,

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01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 2: so let me give you an idea of what's to

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01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 2: come this season on Spolitics. But of course, craig sister

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Speaker 2: former First Lady Michelle Obama rich and her as an athlete.

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Speaker 11: What kind of athlete was Michelle? She could play every

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01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 11: sport I played. She played baseball, softball, basketball, and she

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Speaker 11: ran track. We went to a day camp in Chicago

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Speaker 11: at Rainbow Beach and she would win all the ribbons

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Speaker 11: for track. So she was fast, athletic, and she had

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Speaker 11: the spirit of an athlete, right, so she was trying

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Speaker 11: to win. She wasn't just out there for exercise.

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Speaker 12: I want black men's ideas to be invested in and

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01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 12: those ideas can result in businesses they can result in

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Speaker 12: whatever your personal ambition may be, job wise, et cetera.

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Speaker 12: Because ultimately this is about access to our dream of health.

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Speaker 13: And well, every investment I make is first and foremost,

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Speaker 13: and investment business matters above all. In all these investments

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Speaker 13: in women's sports, like don't get it twisted, Like, yes,

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Speaker 13: obviously I'm married to Serena the Goat, Yes I have

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Speaker 13: two daughters. But the number one driving force behind all

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Speaker 13: these investments, starting with Angel City back in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 13: has been business opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Everyone loves to say, shut up and dribble in to that,

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Speaker 1: I say, I wish we could, but we can't.

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Speaker 14: So many of these athletes who were exercising their power

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Speaker 14: in that way, who were being political, I think that

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Speaker 14: those were women that a lot of women in society

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Speaker 14: could look to and say, well, if they can do it,

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Speaker 14: maybe I should be doing something.

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Speaker 7: What else?

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Speaker 14: You know, what else could I be doing? If these

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Speaker 14: athletes can be paying attention and doing something and trying

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Speaker 14: to make a difference, you know, and they're a fan

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Speaker 14: of that person, that's maybe raising their awareness in a

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Speaker 14: way that they didn't have before. That's maybe making them

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Speaker 14: aware of power that they didn't understand that they had.

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Speaker 10: And the last five electure is Jamail. We've seen black

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Speaker 10: turn up from we are now at the point of

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Speaker 10: pre Obama level. That's a concern because I need Black

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Speaker 10: people to understand if we vote at our capacity, Jamail,

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Speaker 10: we wipe out racists.

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Speaker 2: Politics is a production of iHeart Podcast and The Unbothered Network.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Schakoigne.

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Speaker 2: Lucas Hyman is head of audio and a executive producer.

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Speaker 2: Megan Armstrong is associate producer. Original music Frost Politics provided

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Speaker 2: by Kyle VISs from wiz FX