1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 1: Push Kim. Hey there against the rules listeners, it's Michael 2 00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:26,516 Speaker 1: Lewis here. You might've heard that I've been working on 3 00:00:26,556 --> 00:00:30,396 Speaker 1: a new book about the crypto Exchange FTX and its founder, 4 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:34,196 Speaker 1: Sam Bankman Freed, and I'm still working on it, talking 5 00:00:34,196 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 1: to experts on background here in this feed. But I'm 6 00:00:37,796 --> 00:00:40,116 Speaker 1: finally able to tell you just a bit more about 7 00:00:40,116 --> 00:00:43,036 Speaker 1: the book itself, like the title, for instance, and when 8 00:00:43,076 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 1: it will be published. 9 00:00:45,116 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 2: So here we go. 10 00:00:47,796 --> 00:00:51,156 Speaker 1: My next book is going to be called Going Infinite, 11 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:55,636 Speaker 1: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. It's coming 12 00:00:55,636 --> 00:01:00,516 Speaker 1: out October third. And rather than tell you what's in it, 13 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:02,116 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of the pleasure is going 14 00:01:02,196 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 1: to come from you not knowing what's in it, how 15 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:06,876 Speaker 1: about I just read you a little jacket copy and 16 00:01:06,956 --> 00:01:10,236 Speaker 1: I quote Michael Lewis, take you along on a quest 17 00:01:10,276 --> 00:01:14,316 Speaker 1: to understand who Sam Bankman Freed really is, what motivated him, 18 00:01:14,316 --> 00:01:16,956 Speaker 1: and what his spectacular rise and fall means for the 19 00:01:16,996 --> 00:01:19,916 Speaker 1: rest of us. Who was this rumpled guy in cargo 20 00:01:19,956 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 1: shorts and limp white socks whose eyes twitched across zoom 21 00:01:22,876 --> 00:01:26,356 Speaker 1: meetings as he played video games on the side right 22 00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:28,196 Speaker 1: on the roller coaster with me? Is I traced the 23 00:01:28,316 --> 00:01:30,836 Speaker 1: ups and downs of a character who never liked the 24 00:01:30,916 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 1: rules and was allowed to live by his own until 25 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:36,516 Speaker 1: it all came undone. I didn't write those words, but 26 00:01:36,556 --> 00:01:39,756 Speaker 1: I think they sound okay. I'd read that book if 27 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:43,876 Speaker 1: I weren't still writing it. Going Infinite, The Rise and 28 00:01:43,956 --> 00:01:47,756 Speaker 1: Fall of a New Tycoon will be available October twenty 29 00:01:47,796 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 1: twenty three. In fact, you could pre order it now 30 00:01:51,036 --> 00:02:01,236 Speaker 1: from your favorite bookstore. Look forward to your response. Hey everyone, 31 00:02:01,276 --> 00:02:03,916 Speaker 1: Michael lewis here today. We're back in your feed to 32 00:02:03,956 --> 00:02:07,556 Speaker 1: bring you an episode from Revisionist History, another podcast from 33 00:02:07,636 --> 00:02:11,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. This season, on Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell is 34 00:02:11,996 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 1: diving into one of the most infuriating corners in American life, guns. 35 00:02:17,676 --> 00:02:20,676 Speaker 1: The six episode series looks at America's gun problem through 36 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:25,396 Speaker 1: topics like TV westerns, the assassination of Robert Kennedy, and 37 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:28,756 Speaker 1: the insanity of the Supreme Court. In the first episode, 38 00:02:28,756 --> 00:02:30,916 Speaker 1: Malcolm takes a close look at a name that popped 39 00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:33,316 Speaker 1: up in a recent landmark Supreme Court ruling on the 40 00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:38,036 Speaker 1: Second Amendment, a seventeenth century englishman named John Knight. He'll 41 00:02:38,036 --> 00:02:40,396 Speaker 1: discover who this man is and why so much about 42 00:02:40,396 --> 00:02:44,036 Speaker 1: twenty first century American gun control hinges on his story. 43 00:02:44,996 --> 00:02:47,876 Speaker 1: All right, here's the episode. You can binge listen to 44 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:51,476 Speaker 1: all six episodes early in ad free by subscribing to 45 00:02:51,476 --> 00:02:56,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts, or by visiting pushkin dot fm, 46 00:02:56,156 --> 00:03:00,156 Speaker 1: slash plus, or Here are the episodes weekly in the 47 00:03:00,156 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 1: Revisionist History podcast feed. 48 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:13,876 Speaker 3: Sixteen eighty six, in Bristol, a major port and manufacturing 49 00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:17,676 Speaker 3: center on the southwest coast of England, a local merchant 50 00:03:17,756 --> 00:03:21,676 Speaker 3: named John Knight, Sir John Knight is riding up a 51 00:03:21,716 --> 00:03:26,796 Speaker 3: steep road outside the city to an Anglican church, Saint Michael's. 52 00:03:26,916 --> 00:03:32,316 Speaker 3: On the hill greystone slate roof sturdy walls built during 53 00:03:32,356 --> 00:03:35,996 Speaker 3: medieval times to withstand the full brunt of hostile force. 54 00:03:36,876 --> 00:03:42,516 Speaker 3: The city of Bristol spread out below. Sir John Knight 55 00:03:42,716 --> 00:04:03,196 Speaker 3: bursts in and then, oh my god, John Lone. My 56 00:04:03,316 --> 00:04:06,676 Speaker 3: name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my 57 00:04:06,796 --> 00:04:12,436 Speaker 3: podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. In this episode, I 58 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:15,956 Speaker 3: invite you to descend with me into the deep and 59 00:04:16,036 --> 00:04:22,436 Speaker 3: bottomless historical pit that is Sir John Knight, the irrepressible 60 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:26,556 Speaker 3: Englishman who has achieved more than three centuries after his 61 00:04:26,676 --> 00:04:49,396 Speaker 3: death a sudden and extraordinary celebrity. How was it that 62 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:52,996 Speaker 3: the John Knight case came to such a promise? Who 63 00:04:53,116 --> 00:04:55,916 Speaker 3: uncovered it? It doesn't sound like this wasn't a case 64 00:04:55,956 --> 00:04:58,236 Speaker 3: that was in There wasn't a famous case name at 65 00:04:58,276 --> 00:04:58,556 Speaker 3: the time. 66 00:04:58,636 --> 00:05:00,636 Speaker 4: Now I don't I hate to say, it's like, you know, 67 00:05:01,756 --> 00:05:03,316 Speaker 4: if you talk about history, like you know, you can 68 00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:05,596 Speaker 4: go to Africa and find a rock with somebody's name 69 00:05:05,596 --> 00:05:07,516 Speaker 4: on it. This is, you know, founded by white guy 70 00:05:07,676 --> 00:05:11,596 Speaker 4: in nineteen eighteen. No, it was existing, right, it was there. 71 00:05:11,636 --> 00:05:12,676 Speaker 4: It's always been there. 72 00:05:13,556 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 3: So I wanted to explain how that happened and why 73 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:21,516 Speaker 3: he matters. And I know that this is something you've 74 00:05:21,556 --> 00:05:25,956 Speaker 3: thought about, so I naturally wanted to call you. First 75 00:05:26,036 --> 00:05:31,996 Speaker 3: question set for me. Who is the first modern legal 76 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:36,076 Speaker 3: scholar to reference Sir John Knight? 77 00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:39,876 Speaker 5: Depends on what you mean by mom William Hawkins into 78 00:05:39,876 --> 00:05:42,756 Speaker 5: seventy six in his seventeen sixteen treatise. 79 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:47,876 Speaker 3: I mean last fifty years his most recent celebrity. 80 00:05:49,076 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 5: Well, I mean he was around in case law, you know, 81 00:05:52,196 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 5: not as common as he's been in the twenty first century, 82 00:05:54,756 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 5: but he was always around in case law. To some degree, 83 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:02,036 Speaker 5: you know, shows up in the major eighteen forty three 84 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:05,636 Speaker 5: case in North Carolina, and then another nineteen sixty eight 85 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:08,156 Speaker 5: North Carolina case, among others. 86 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:12,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I you know, I was. I got 87 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:16,836 Speaker 3: really interested in the way the Second Amendment debate has 88 00:06:16,876 --> 00:06:20,956 Speaker 3: been transformed and in this sort of focus on history, 89 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:23,596 Speaker 3: and I got The reason I got into is that 90 00:06:23,596 --> 00:06:25,676 Speaker 3: I got really fascinated by the Sir John Knight case. 91 00:06:26,396 --> 00:06:29,036 Speaker 6: Now, oh, yes, right, and. 92 00:06:28,956 --> 00:06:31,356 Speaker 3: Everyone says, oh, the person you have to talk to 93 00:06:32,036 --> 00:06:35,276 Speaker 3: is Joyce Malcolm. So here I am, and here you. 94 00:06:35,236 --> 00:06:36,676 Speaker 6: Are, here I am. 95 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:40,276 Speaker 3: When you were doing your book, your original work on this, 96 00:06:40,756 --> 00:06:43,236 Speaker 3: how did you come across the Sir John Knight case. 97 00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:46,276 Speaker 6: Ah, well, it's a long time going out. 98 00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:50,196 Speaker 3: John Knight's name is spoken first only in the smallest 99 00:06:50,236 --> 00:06:55,036 Speaker 3: of historical circles. Then it gets repeated again and again 100 00:06:55,436 --> 00:06:58,556 Speaker 3: with increasing frequency in bigger and bigger rooms. 101 00:06:59,116 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 7: I was at a conference in d C where they 102 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:04,836 Speaker 7: were discussing Second Amendment issues, and they had people giving 103 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:07,516 Speaker 7: papers from all perspectives, and I was just there to 104 00:07:07,636 --> 00:07:11,196 Speaker 7: offer some historic important I found myself having to clarify 105 00:07:11,316 --> 00:07:14,276 Speaker 7: some of the basic details and mis assertions have been 106 00:07:14,276 --> 00:07:17,356 Speaker 7: made about what had actually happened, So I said, I 107 00:07:17,356 --> 00:07:19,036 Speaker 7: happened to know about this because I've read a lot 108 00:07:19,036 --> 00:07:19,756 Speaker 7: of the sources. 109 00:07:20,036 --> 00:07:22,996 Speaker 3: Do we know what Sir John looked like, his family life, 110 00:07:23,316 --> 00:07:27,156 Speaker 3: his personal circumstances, Not really, but we do know something 111 00:07:27,156 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 3: of his character, principled to a fault, contentious, possessed of 112 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 3: a steadfastness of mind. 113 00:07:34,756 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 8: Indeed, so he was a Bristol merchant, he was from 114 00:07:41,396 --> 00:07:45,556 Speaker 8: quite an important Bristol mercantile family, and perhaps because his 115 00:07:45,676 --> 00:07:50,916 Speaker 8: father had been a sugar maker, Sir John Knight appears 116 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:53,036 Speaker 8: to have gone out to the West Indies and spent 117 00:07:53,076 --> 00:07:57,356 Speaker 8: a period of time there, apparently rather controversially, because when 118 00:07:57,356 --> 00:08:01,076 Speaker 8: he then applied a couple of years before we're deinning 119 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:04,516 Speaker 8: with to be the governor of the Leeward Islands, he 120 00:08:04,556 --> 00:08:07,996 Speaker 8: appears to have been vetoed by the people there saying 121 00:08:07,996 --> 00:08:10,436 Speaker 8: that from their experience, he was the last person that 122 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 8: they wanted to come out as the governor, and it 123 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:18,076 Speaker 8: may have been partly his resentment at that throwback, people 124 00:08:18,076 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 8: have suggested may have been one reason why he turned 125 00:08:21,276 --> 00:08:24,556 Speaker 8: against the government of James the Second, which up until 126 00:08:24,556 --> 00:08:29,596 Speaker 8: that point he had been very strongly supporting. So he 127 00:08:29,636 --> 00:08:32,076 Speaker 8: appears to have been a man of a short temper, 128 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 8: much disliked by many other people, highly manipulative. 129 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:44,396 Speaker 3: But do we need to make friends of our heroes, No, 130 00:08:44,476 --> 00:08:47,396 Speaker 3: we don't. What we demand of our heroes is that 131 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:51,596 Speaker 3: they serve some larger cause, that they stand for something 132 00:08:51,956 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 3: that their name would be uttered with reverence on some 133 00:08:55,316 --> 00:08:56,436 Speaker 3: grand stage. 134 00:08:56,996 --> 00:09:01,156 Speaker 9: I know you've had a substantial debate with your friends 135 00:09:01,156 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 9: on the other side about the Statute of Northampton. 136 00:09:04,236 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 3: Do you know who that is? Neil Gorsuch, Supreme Court Justice, 137 00:09:08,556 --> 00:09:12,636 Speaker 3: during arguments in November of twenty twenty one, posing a 138 00:09:12,716 --> 00:09:16,116 Speaker 3: question to the legendary appellate lawyer Paul Clement. 139 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 9: We haven't heard about that today, and I just wanted 140 00:09:18,756 --> 00:09:19,556 Speaker 9: to give you a chance. 141 00:09:21,156 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 10: Thank you, Justice Gorsich. I'd say just a couple of 142 00:09:23,436 --> 00:09:25,516 Speaker 10: quick things about the Statute of Northampton. 143 00:09:25,756 --> 00:09:27,716 Speaker 3: Wait for it. Wait for it. 144 00:09:28,396 --> 00:09:31,156 Speaker 10: First of all, I think that it was very clear 145 00:09:31,316 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 10: from the Knight's Case and the treatises that this court 146 00:09:34,596 --> 00:09:37,556 Speaker 10: relied on in Heller that by the time of the 147 00:09:37,556 --> 00:09:39,836 Speaker 10: framing of the Knight's case. 148 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 3: Oh, when the final accounting is done of the twenty 149 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:55,556 Speaker 3: first century, a handful of Supreme Court cases will stand 150 00:09:55,556 --> 00:09:59,596 Speaker 3: out as landmarks. The Citizens United Case from twenty ten, 151 00:09:59,716 --> 00:10:03,396 Speaker 3: for example, which freed corporations to spend enormous amounts of 152 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:07,756 Speaker 3: money on political candidates, the decision to overturn abortion rights, 153 00:10:08,596 --> 00:10:12,516 Speaker 3: and very high on that list, a pivotal gun rights 154 00:10:12,596 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 3: case that came before the Court in late twenty twenty one. 155 00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:22,636 Speaker 10: We will hear argument this morning in case twenty eight 156 00:10:22,756 --> 00:10:27,836 Speaker 10: forty three New York State Rifle and Pistol Association versus Bruin. 157 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 3: New York Rifle and Pistol otherwise known as the Bruin Case. 158 00:10:33,276 --> 00:10:36,556 Speaker 3: Broom was about the Second Amendment to the Constitution, A 159 00:10:36,596 --> 00:10:40,956 Speaker 3: well regulated militia comma being necessary to the security of 160 00:10:40,996 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 3: a free state comma the right of the people to 161 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 3: keep and bear arms comma shall not be infringed. What 162 00:10:49,076 --> 00:10:52,716 Speaker 3: does that sentence mean? For years and years scholars have 163 00:10:52,836 --> 00:10:55,116 Speaker 3: argued about that. We even weighed in on it here 164 00:10:55,156 --> 00:10:59,116 Speaker 3: at Revisionist History. If you remember in season three's Divide 165 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 3: and Conquer episode with an investigation of the significance of 166 00:11:03,076 --> 00:11:06,676 Speaker 3: the commas that surround the phrase being necessary to the 167 00:11:06,716 --> 00:11:11,596 Speaker 3: security of a free state. But then along comes the 168 00:11:11,636 --> 00:11:15,636 Speaker 3: Bruin case. For one hundred years a law has been 169 00:11:15,676 --> 00:11:17,876 Speaker 3: on the books in New York State that says you 170 00:11:17,916 --> 00:11:20,756 Speaker 3: can only get a handgun if you prove you need 171 00:11:20,796 --> 00:11:24,556 Speaker 3: one for some specific purpose. And the gun lovers of 172 00:11:24,636 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 3: New York are unhappy about this. They sue. The Supreme 173 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,516 Speaker 3: Court agrees to take the case, and in November of 174 00:11:32,556 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, lawyers for both sides gather for what 175 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:39,716 Speaker 3: is the first stage in all Supreme Court cases, oral arguments. 176 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:43,916 Speaker 3: They're in the Court's Central Chamber on First Street, across 177 00:11:43,916 --> 00:11:47,836 Speaker 3: from the Capital, an imposing room in the grand Neoclassical 178 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:52,516 Speaker 3: Revival style, forty four foot ceilings twenty four ionic columns 179 00:11:52,516 --> 00:11:56,756 Speaker 3: in marble shipped from Liguria, Italy. The justices are sitting 180 00:11:56,796 --> 00:12:00,036 Speaker 3: all in a row behind a long curved mahogany table, 181 00:12:00,356 --> 00:12:02,196 Speaker 3: there to hear the lawyers on both sides of the 182 00:12:02,196 --> 00:12:07,276 Speaker 3: Bruin case present their oral arguments. The room's packed, A 183 00:12:07,356 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 3: sense of anticipation is in the. 184 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:13,396 Speaker 10: Air, Mister Chief Justice, and may it please the Court. 185 00:12:13,996 --> 00:12:17,516 Speaker 10: The text of the Second Amendment enshrines aright not just 186 00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 10: to keep arms, but to bear them, And the relevant 187 00:12:20,836 --> 00:12:24,316 Speaker 10: history and tradition exhaustively surveyed by this Court in the 188 00:12:24,356 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 10: Heller decision confirmed that the text protects an individual right 189 00:12:29,476 --> 00:12:33,876 Speaker 10: to carry firearms outside the home for purposes of self defense. 190 00:12:34,796 --> 00:12:37,676 Speaker 3: Paul Clement, lawyer for the gun rights group. 191 00:12:37,636 --> 00:12:39,996 Speaker 11: I'm happy to continue by point I missed the Clement. 192 00:12:40,356 --> 00:12:42,036 Speaker 11: I'm sorry to interrupt you. 193 00:12:42,516 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 3: That's Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Thomas would go on 194 00:12:46,316 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 3: to write the Court's majority opinion in the case. This 195 00:12:49,996 --> 00:12:52,876 Speaker 3: is the moment where he tips his hand shows us 196 00:12:53,276 --> 00:12:54,036 Speaker 3: where he's leaning. 197 00:12:54,596 --> 00:13:02,996 Speaker 11: If we analyze this and use history, tradition texts of 198 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:04,916 Speaker 11: the Second Amendment, we're going to have to do it 199 00:13:04,956 --> 00:13:09,676 Speaker 11: by analogy. So can you give me a rite regulation 200 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:16,036 Speaker 11: on in history that is a base that would form 201 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:19,316 Speaker 11: a basis for a legitimate regulation today. If we're going 202 00:13:19,356 --> 00:13:22,116 Speaker 11: to do it by analogy, what would we analogize it to. 203 00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:23,276 Speaker 11: What would that look like? 204 00:13:24,556 --> 00:13:27,636 Speaker 3: If you were a law student armed with a yellow highlighter, 205 00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:32,796 Speaker 3: you would underline the words history and tradition. Why Because 206 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:36,116 Speaker 3: Thomas is telling us something crucial here. He doesn't care 207 00:13:36,156 --> 00:13:38,796 Speaker 3: about the commas in the Second Amendment. He doesn't care 208 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:41,556 Speaker 3: about the arcane theories of the legal scholars. He doesn't 209 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:43,796 Speaker 3: even care about what the citizens of New York State 210 00:13:44,036 --> 00:13:47,156 Speaker 3: may or may not think about restricting handguns. He cares 211 00:13:47,156 --> 00:13:51,356 Speaker 3: about what the Founders thought when they wrote the Second Amendment. 212 00:13:51,996 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 3: And when he says you're going to have to do 213 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:56,716 Speaker 3: it by analogy, what he means is the only way 214 00:13:56,756 --> 00:14:01,276 Speaker 3: to decide whether a restriction on guns is valid, is 215 00:14:01,356 --> 00:14:04,876 Speaker 3: consistent with the Second Amendment, is did the Founders way 216 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:08,876 Speaker 3: back when ever, consider a restriction that looks like this 217 00:14:08,956 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 3: New York law, would they have been okay with it? 218 00:14:12,276 --> 00:14:16,796 Speaker 11: And Clement agrees, So can you give me a regulation 219 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:23,276 Speaker 11: in history that is a base that would form a 220 00:14:23,356 --> 00:14:25,876 Speaker 11: basis for a legitimate regulation today. 221 00:14:26,596 --> 00:14:30,996 Speaker 3: Yes, that's what this case is about. We're arguing history. 222 00:14:30,676 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 12: Here, mister Chief Justice, and may it please the court. 223 00:14:34,716 --> 00:14:37,796 Speaker 3: Then the attorney for the other side stands up, Barbara Underwood, 224 00:14:38,116 --> 00:14:40,316 Speaker 3: Solicitor General of the State of New York. 225 00:14:40,916 --> 00:14:44,236 Speaker 12: For centuries, English and American law have imposed limits on 226 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:47,756 Speaker 12: carrying firearms in public and the interests of public safety. 227 00:14:48,276 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 12: The history runs from the fourteenth century Statute of Northampton, 228 00:14:52,356 --> 00:14:56,316 Speaker 12: which prohibited carrying arms in fairs and markets and other 229 00:14:56,396 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 12: public gathering places, to similar laws adopted by half of 230 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:04,396 Speaker 12: the American colonies and states in the Founding period. 231 00:15:04,716 --> 00:15:08,476 Speaker 3: The Statute of Northampton. That's the third time we've heard 232 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:11,316 Speaker 3: it mentioned. In a case heard in the twenty first 233 00:15:11,316 --> 00:15:14,796 Speaker 3: century about a law passed in the twentieth century. The 234 00:15:14,836 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 3: court has asked for insight into how the founders felt 235 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:21,116 Speaker 3: in the eighteenth century, and the lawyers said, well, then 236 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:25,516 Speaker 3: we need to look to the fourteenth century. Thirteen twenty 237 00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:29,676 Speaker 3: eight to be precise, Your Honor, during the reign of 238 00:15:29,796 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 3: Edward the Second, the English Parliament passed the Statute of Northampton, 239 00:15:34,236 --> 00:15:37,916 Speaker 3: which says that no man shall disturb the peace by 240 00:15:38,036 --> 00:15:43,556 Speaker 3: riding armed night or day, without quote forfeiting their bodies 241 00:15:43,596 --> 00:15:48,036 Speaker 3: to prison at the King's pleasure. The Statute of Northampton 242 00:15:48,396 --> 00:15:51,476 Speaker 3: is part of English common law. English common law is 243 00:15:51,516 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 3: what the first English settlers brought with them on the Mayflower. 244 00:15:55,676 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 3: English common law is what the founding fathers learned in school. 245 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:02,236 Speaker 3: You want an analogy from history, you want to play 246 00:16:02,396 --> 00:16:06,116 Speaker 3: early history. I give you a crucial law from thirteen 247 00:16:06,236 --> 00:16:11,356 Speaker 3: twenty eight which absolutely found knew about that restricts guns 248 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:15,196 Speaker 3: way more than anything we're talking about in this court, 249 00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:20,716 Speaker 3: Your Honor. If court cases are chess, this is check. 250 00:16:21,356 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 3: The only way the gun rights crowd can win is 251 00:16:23,636 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 3: if they can find their own bit of ancient history 252 00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 3: that trump's the Statute of Northampton, and incredibly they do. 253 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 3: John Love, Yeah, yeah, going back to when you were 254 00:16:43,396 --> 00:16:46,276 Speaker 3: doing your book, your original work on this, how did 255 00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:48,436 Speaker 3: you come across the Sir John Knight case. 256 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 6: Ah, well, it's a long time ago now, but I 257 00:16:53,156 --> 00:16:56,316 Speaker 6: looked through all of the cases and there are these 258 00:16:56,356 --> 00:16:59,476 Speaker 6: little handbooks on what the law was at different times 259 00:16:59,476 --> 00:17:02,716 Speaker 6: that were published is to help justices of the peace 260 00:17:02,796 --> 00:17:05,916 Speaker 6: and judges. I looked through the laws. I did a 261 00:17:05,996 --> 00:17:13,716 Speaker 6: lot of manuscript reading and really investigating what Parliament was doing, 262 00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:15,196 Speaker 6: what was happening at that time. 263 00:17:15,636 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 3: Joyce Malcolm the Patrick Henry Professor of Constitutional Law and 264 00:17:19,836 --> 00:17:23,356 Speaker 3: the Second Amendment at the antonin Scalia Law School at 265 00:17:23,356 --> 00:17:27,876 Speaker 3: George Mason University in Virginia. In a world where history 266 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:32,756 Speaker 3: matters more than law or public sentiment, historians become heroes. 267 00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:37,476 Speaker 3: The magazine National Review once described Joyce Malcolm as the 268 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 3: nice girl who saved the Second Amendment. She quote looks 269 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:46,036 Speaker 3: nothing like a hardened veteran of the gun control wars. Small, 270 00:17:46,636 --> 00:17:50,276 Speaker 3: slender and bookish. She's a wisp of a woman who 271 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:54,476 Speaker 3: enjoys plunging into the archives and sitting through panel discussions 272 00:17:54,876 --> 00:17:59,716 Speaker 3: at academic conferences, Malcolm felt the argument over gun rights 273 00:17:59,956 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 3: had been set adrift from history. If we didn't know 274 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:06,196 Speaker 3: what the founders thought, how would we know what we 275 00:18:06,276 --> 00:18:09,476 Speaker 3: should think. In her most famous book, To Keep and 276 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 3: Bear Arms, The Origin of an American Right, she set 277 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:15,276 Speaker 3: out to answer that question, and while pouring through case 278 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:18,956 Speaker 3: books from the eighteenth and nineteenth century, she found it 279 00:18:19,596 --> 00:18:23,516 Speaker 3: the key that unlocked the whole mystery. No more than 280 00:18:23,556 --> 00:18:26,276 Speaker 3: a handful of paragraphs and a short summary, but the 281 00:18:26,316 --> 00:18:33,516 Speaker 3: story it told was riveting. It's sixteen eighty six. England 282 00:18:33,636 --> 00:18:38,076 Speaker 3: is overwhelmingly Protestant, legally and officially dominated by the Church 283 00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:41,796 Speaker 3: of England, but for a brief period in the sixteen eighties, 284 00:18:42,236 --> 00:18:45,876 Speaker 3: the king was James the Second, who was Catholic, and 285 00:18:45,996 --> 00:18:49,716 Speaker 3: Church of England loyalists were outraged by the possibility that 286 00:18:49,756 --> 00:18:53,076 Speaker 3: the king might try and empower his fellow Catholics, and 287 00:18:53,156 --> 00:18:57,036 Speaker 3: one of those outraged Church of England loyalists was a 288 00:18:57,076 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 3: merchant from the coastal town of Bristol, a man named 289 00:19:02,196 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 3: Sir John Knight. One day, Knight rides up a steep 290 00:19:12,396 --> 00:19:15,516 Speaker 3: road outside Bristol to the Anglican Church of Saint Michael 291 00:19:15,516 --> 00:19:19,996 Speaker 3: on the hill. He bursts in the story, goes waving 292 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:25,116 Speaker 3: his guns, gives an impassioned speech. James the Second hears 293 00:19:25,116 --> 00:19:29,276 Speaker 3: of it and has Knight arrested charges him under the 294 00:19:29,316 --> 00:19:30,636 Speaker 3: Statute of Northampton. 295 00:19:33,876 --> 00:19:36,756 Speaker 7: The information sets forth that the defendant did walk about 296 00:19:36,756 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 7: the streets armed with guns, and that he went into 297 00:19:39,036 --> 00:19:41,236 Speaker 7: the Church of Saint Michael in Bristol in the time 298 00:19:41,276 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 7: of divine service with a gun to terrify the King's subjects. 299 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:51,476 Speaker 3: And what happens. The jury decides not guilty. Joyce Malcolm 300 00:19:51,556 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 3: reads this and it takes her breath away. Everyone thinks 301 00:19:55,076 --> 00:19:58,356 Speaker 3: that English common law, on which the American legal tradition 302 00:19:58,476 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 3: is based was hostile to people walking around with guns. 303 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:06,396 Speaker 3: But that is not true. John Knight was acquitted. John 304 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:09,636 Speaker 3: Knight goes up against the Statute of Northampton, and John 305 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 3: Knight wins. One side says the Statute of Northampton. Check. 306 00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:19,276 Speaker 3: The other side counters John Knight, checkmate. 307 00:20:21,476 --> 00:20:24,756 Speaker 6: So there's been this big debate about what the Statute 308 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:28,276 Speaker 6: of Northampton meant. But I can say that if it 309 00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:32,356 Speaker 6: was archaic by the seventeenth century, it was certainly archaic 310 00:20:32,676 --> 00:20:36,156 Speaker 6: by the eighteenth century, when we've got the Second Amendment, 311 00:20:36,236 --> 00:20:38,836 Speaker 6: and for sure the twenty first century. 312 00:20:38,876 --> 00:20:43,116 Speaker 3: The nice girl who saved the Second Amendment. And if 313 00:20:43,156 --> 00:20:45,476 Speaker 3: you read through the briefs file before the Supreme Court 314 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 3: in Bruin, what do you find John Knight. Everywhere we 315 00:20:50,236 --> 00:20:52,916 Speaker 3: hear about the famous case of Sir John Knight, we 316 00:20:52,996 --> 00:20:55,876 Speaker 3: get history lessons on John Knight. We learned that the 317 00:20:55,956 --> 00:20:59,236 Speaker 3: legal entanglement he found himself in after he burst into 318 00:20:59,316 --> 00:21:02,076 Speaker 3: the church at Saint Michael's on the Hill is the 319 00:21:02,116 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 3: most quote significant precedent quote in understanding a crucial turn 320 00:21:07,356 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 3: in Second Amendment law. During oral arguments, Neil Gore sutch 321 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 3: lobs as softball Paul Clement about the Statute of Northampton. 322 00:21:16,516 --> 00:21:20,636 Speaker 9: I know you've had a substantial debate, was your friends 323 00:21:20,676 --> 00:21:23,076 Speaker 9: on the other side about the Statute of Northampton? 324 00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:27,516 Speaker 3: And Paul Clement knocks the question out of the park 325 00:21:28,156 --> 00:21:37,396 Speaker 3: John Knight? Baby Oh. Then six months later comes the 326 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:42,476 Speaker 3: final ruling in Bruin. Just as Clarence Thomas promised, It's 327 00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:46,276 Speaker 3: all about history. Eight pages on the Perier between twelve 328 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:50,916 Speaker 3: eighty five and seventeen seventy six, five pages on Colonial America, 329 00:21:51,236 --> 00:21:54,196 Speaker 3: nine pages on seventeen ninety one to the Civil War. 330 00:21:54,636 --> 00:21:57,756 Speaker 3: Six pages on the Path to reconstruction, one of the 331 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:02,556 Speaker 3: most important cases of our generation, a landmark that once 332 00:22:02,636 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 3: and for all clarifies the most controversial of all the 333 00:22:06,196 --> 00:22:10,236 Speaker 3: amendments to the US Constitution. The debate is over. Now 334 00:22:10,276 --> 00:22:12,956 Speaker 3: we know with the founders under the sway of the 335 00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:16,396 Speaker 3: Statute of Northampton. No, they were not, the court rules. 336 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:20,996 Speaker 3: History teaches us. Otherwise the founders would have frowned on 337 00:22:21,036 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 3: the way in New York State tried to regulate handguns. 338 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 3: And we know this because of one man's heroic acquittal. 339 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:31,596 Speaker 3: If you read the brew and ruling, John Knight looms 340 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:36,676 Speaker 3: over it like a colossus. John Knight, John Knight, John Knight. 341 00:22:36,836 --> 00:22:39,916 Speaker 3: He pops up again and again like a late seventeenth 342 00:22:39,996 --> 00:22:44,876 Speaker 3: century whack a mole. I've been really drawn effect this morning. 343 00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:49,516 Speaker 3: I was reading over again this stuff about the Rex v. Night, 344 00:22:49,916 --> 00:22:53,036 Speaker 3: the John Knight case. I call up a second Amendment 345 00:22:53,076 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 3: scholar named Patrick Charles. Before long talk swung to John Knight. 346 00:22:57,636 --> 00:23:00,636 Speaker 3: Of course it did. There's no quitting John Knight once 347 00:23:00,676 --> 00:23:04,236 Speaker 3: you catch John Knight fever. But you know that it's 348 00:23:04,236 --> 00:23:08,236 Speaker 3: a totally fascinating history taken in itself, but in context 349 00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:11,836 Speaker 3: the idea is it, You know, in the middle of 350 00:23:11,916 --> 00:23:17,996 Speaker 3: a contemporary debate about how to handle the possession of 351 00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:23,316 Speaker 3: dangerous weapons in America, that we're spending our time obsessing 352 00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:27,276 Speaker 3: about a case from the seventeenth century in Bristol and 353 00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 3: England is hilarious. 354 00:23:29,516 --> 00:23:31,796 Speaker 13: Yes, on the one level, you're you're absolutely critic. 355 00:23:31,996 --> 00:23:34,556 Speaker 3: Patrick Charles and I agreed that it was hilarious to 356 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:36,876 Speaker 3: spend so much time on John Knight. And then what 357 00:23:36,956 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 3: do we do? We continue talking about John Knight. John 358 00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:44,716 Speaker 3: Knight is the groundhog who emerges from his musty English 359 00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:48,396 Speaker 3: lair every spring to cast a shadow across twenty first 360 00:23:48,396 --> 00:23:53,036 Speaker 3: century jurisprudence, the beaver who stealthily builds a legal edifice 361 00:23:53,436 --> 00:23:58,476 Speaker 3: out of mud and sticks, The constitutional scholar and a 362 00:23:58,516 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 3: founding member of the John Knight fan Club. David Copple 363 00:24:01,836 --> 00:24:04,796 Speaker 3: once combed through the library of an eighteenth century law 364 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:07,836 Speaker 3: professor named George Wythe who taught law to a Supreme 365 00:24:07,876 --> 00:24:11,956 Speaker 3: Court justice, a couple of presidents, some founding fathers, and 366 00:24:12,036 --> 00:24:15,076 Speaker 3: he found that John Knight's name was all over law 367 00:24:15,116 --> 00:24:18,436 Speaker 3: books back then. Surely this is all the founders were 368 00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:21,076 Speaker 3: talking about over a good pipe and a bottle of 369 00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:26,636 Speaker 3: claret in the drawing rooms of colonial Philadelphia. You were 370 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:27,716 Speaker 3: in Bristol not long ago. 371 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:32,356 Speaker 5: I was my wife and I were on vacation and 372 00:24:32,516 --> 00:24:34,756 Speaker 5: as we were on our way from Cornwall to Wales, 373 00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:41,276 Speaker 5: I we did stop at Saint Michael Church in Bristol 374 00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:44,676 Speaker 5: where all this stuff happened, because I wanted to see it, 375 00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:47,476 Speaker 5: maybe see if Sir John Knight was buried in that graveyard. 376 00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 3: David Copple, on vacation, says to his wife, we cannot 377 00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:55,796 Speaker 3: quit this storied isle without paying homage to the man 378 00:24:56,076 --> 00:25:01,516 Speaker 3: whose brave example saved America from the tyranny of restrictive 379 00:25:01,516 --> 00:25:02,236 Speaker 3: gun laws. 380 00:25:03,076 --> 00:25:06,236 Speaker 5: And it was interesting. It's not a huge cathedral type church. 381 00:25:06,316 --> 00:25:09,236 Speaker 5: It's a medium sized church, but it's up on the hill. Well, 382 00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:12,876 Speaker 5: as I learned the hard way, because I was driving 383 00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:16,196 Speaker 5: a stick shift and getting up that very steep hill 384 00:25:16,356 --> 00:25:17,876 Speaker 5: was was quite a challenge. 385 00:25:18,196 --> 00:25:20,876 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but you're in the area and you couldn't 386 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:23,636 Speaker 3: resist to stop by. And actually I kind of want 387 00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:24,916 Speaker 3: to see Saint Michael's myself. 388 00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:27,116 Speaker 5: Go ahead, tell me why you want to You want 389 00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 5: to see it. 390 00:25:27,476 --> 00:25:30,236 Speaker 3: Too, of course I do. I mean, who wouldn't want 391 00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:32,116 Speaker 3: to learn of this giant in the place of his 392 00:25:32,236 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 3: birth and death. But then, just as I was packing 393 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:39,876 Speaker 3: my bags for Bristol, I thought, wait, let me check 394 00:25:39,876 --> 00:25:44,396 Speaker 3: in with a more disinterested historian of that period. I 395 00:25:44,476 --> 00:25:48,676 Speaker 3: called around, someone recommended a man named Jonathan Barry of 396 00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:52,156 Speaker 3: the University of Eciter. When you, as a historian of 397 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:56,436 Speaker 3: this period, see the way that John Knight has suddenly 398 00:25:56,476 --> 00:26:02,236 Speaker 3: popped up in American gun rights discourse, what's your reaction. 399 00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:05,556 Speaker 8: Well, I find it bizarre because nobody that's ever heard 400 00:26:05,556 --> 00:26:08,436 Speaker 8: of him or the case, and it has no implication, 401 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:11,836 Speaker 8: you know, as I know in the English, Jurish Britain's 402 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:12,596 Speaker 8: not the languagers. 403 00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:13,156 Speaker 11: But you know. 404 00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 8: It's of no significance. 405 00:26:16,436 --> 00:26:20,436 Speaker 3: Huh. So in England, John Knight is a nobody, But 406 00:26:20,556 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 3: in the hallowed halls of the Supreme Court three and 407 00:26:23,396 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 3: a half thousand miles away, he's a superstar. It's a puzzle, 408 00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:33,956 Speaker 3: and it is for puzzles like these that God invented 409 00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 3: revisionous history. One of the problems associated with the coronation 410 00:26:54,716 --> 00:26:57,596 Speaker 3: of John Knight as the savior of the gun rights 411 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:00,356 Speaker 3: movement is that our understanding of the details of his 412 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:05,196 Speaker 3: arrest and acquittal was limited. We had the verdict, but 413 00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 3: not much else. After all, it happened in sixty eighty. 414 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:12,636 Speaker 3: It's not like there are digital records somewhere in the 415 00:27:12,676 --> 00:27:16,116 Speaker 3: Bristol courthouse. What was known about the case came from 416 00:27:16,236 --> 00:27:19,796 Speaker 3: legal catalogs from the eighteenth and nineteenth century, the kind 417 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:22,876 Speaker 3: that a lawyer or a judge might subscribe to that 418 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:26,716 Speaker 3: offer brief summaries, news briefings of the goings on in 419 00:27:26,796 --> 00:27:30,956 Speaker 3: various courthouses around England. That's what Joyce Malcolm found in 420 00:27:30,996 --> 00:27:34,196 Speaker 3: her Eureka moment, a brief write up from a long 421 00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:37,156 Speaker 3: ago legal newsletter on a matter of Rex v. 422 00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:37,476 Speaker 2: Night. 423 00:27:38,236 --> 00:27:41,476 Speaker 3: It was about a paragraph long. But let's be honest, 424 00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:45,836 Speaker 3: one paragraph in a legal digest is not exactly the 425 00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 3: strongest of foundations for completely overturning our understanding of the 426 00:27:50,756 --> 00:27:56,636 Speaker 3: Second Amendment. And perhaps more ominously, the newly inaugurated members 427 00:27:56,876 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 3: of the Sir John Knight Fan Club tended to be lawyers, 428 00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:03,876 Speaker 3: and lawyers deal in black and white, hard facts, the 429 00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:07,796 Speaker 3: letter of the law, tangible evidence. But now they had 430 00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:11,116 Speaker 3: crossed over into the lens of history, and history is 431 00:28:11,156 --> 00:28:14,076 Speaker 3: not like the law at all. History is a living 432 00:28:14,196 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 3: organic thing that gets rewritten all the time. I mean, 433 00:28:17,196 --> 00:28:20,036 Speaker 3: why do you think we call this podcast revisionist history 434 00:28:20,516 --> 00:28:23,876 Speaker 3: because historians love to say, wait a minute, I found 435 00:28:23,916 --> 00:28:26,996 Speaker 3: something new that makes me think we didn't quite realize 436 00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:29,996 Speaker 3: what we were talking about before. And in the case 437 00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:34,516 Speaker 3: of Sir John Knight, that something new was the Newsletter 438 00:28:34,876 --> 00:28:36,796 Speaker 3: of the Intrepid Roger. 439 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:39,956 Speaker 7: Morris ra Jamaris. 440 00:28:44,356 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 3: Roger Morris was a journalist who wrote a private newsletter 441 00:28:48,076 --> 00:28:51,636 Speaker 3: in the sixteen eighties for a variety of well connected clients. 442 00:28:52,796 --> 00:28:57,516 Speaker 3: Roger Morris knew everyone and everything in late seventeenth century England. 443 00:28:57,876 --> 00:29:01,036 Speaker 3: He passed on high end gossip. He told stories no 444 00:29:01,076 --> 00:29:04,476 Speaker 3: one had ever heard before, about brothels and prostitutes and 445 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:07,836 Speaker 3: somebody bearing their breast to the Moroccan ambassador. He wrote 446 00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 3: about how the ice was so thick in the long 447 00:29:09,796 --> 00:29:12,996 Speaker 3: cold winter of sixteen eighty four that people roasted an 448 00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:17,036 Speaker 3: ox on the River Thames. He saw the king's baby 449 00:29:17,036 --> 00:29:20,076 Speaker 3: and air up close and reported, and you have to 450 00:29:20,116 --> 00:29:24,236 Speaker 3: love this little bit of late medieval trolling. The child 451 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:27,196 Speaker 3: was a large, full child in the head and the 452 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:32,076 Speaker 3: upper parts, but not suitably proportioned in the lower parts. 453 00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:36,956 Speaker 3: Roger Morris was a gold mine. But there were a 454 00:29:36,996 --> 00:29:42,756 Speaker 3: few problems. The first was that Roger Morris's reputation did 455 00:29:42,796 --> 00:29:46,636 Speaker 3: not extend beyond the late seventeenth century. His newsletters ended 456 00:29:46,716 --> 00:29:49,716 Speaker 3: up in an obscure library in central London where no 457 00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 3: one paid attention to them for several hundred years. Second problem, 458 00:29:55,236 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 3: Roger Morris was incredibly prolific. That Roger morris archives extend 459 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:03,556 Speaker 3: into the millions of words, So if you wanted to 460 00:30:03,596 --> 00:30:06,356 Speaker 3: find out what Roger Morris had to say about this 461 00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:11,676 Speaker 3: or that, you had to make a commitment. Third, and 462 00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:16,116 Speaker 3: maybe the biggest problem of all, Roger Morris's entire life 463 00:30:16,116 --> 00:30:20,196 Speaker 3: work was written in code. I mean, if you're going 464 00:30:20,236 --> 00:30:22,836 Speaker 3: to diss the private parts of the heir to the throne, 465 00:30:22,996 --> 00:30:24,716 Speaker 3: you have to take some precautions. 466 00:30:29,076 --> 00:30:33,076 Speaker 7: There was an attempt by historian called Douglas Lacy to 467 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 7: try and to start to work on a volume. 468 00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:38,036 Speaker 3: That's the historian Tim Harris. 469 00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:42,356 Speaker 7: He did a book in the nineteen fifties. He couldn't 470 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 7: break the shorthand couldn't break the code, and it's too 471 00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:46,356 Speaker 7: much for one person's take on. 472 00:30:46,956 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 3: A cryptographer from Oxford had to get involved. Teams of 473 00:30:50,476 --> 00:30:54,236 Speaker 3: historians volunteered passing the job down from one generation to 474 00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:59,196 Speaker 3: the next, until finally there it was a full shelf 475 00:30:59,516 --> 00:31:05,316 Speaker 3: of encyclopedia sized volumes, offering hitherto unknown insights into one 476 00:31:05,316 --> 00:31:10,516 Speaker 3: of the most complex eras in British history. It turns 477 00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:13,956 Speaker 3: out had a lot to say about Sir John Knight. 478 00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 7: It's a seven volume edition and there was a team 479 00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:20,636 Speaker 7: of us who did it, and now it's widely available. 480 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:22,756 Speaker 7: And because it's widely available, people are looking at it 481 00:31:22,796 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 7: more and say, oh, there's not more we can find 482 00:31:24,516 --> 00:31:28,996 Speaker 7: out about this is John knightcase. It's an incredible source. 483 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:32,396 Speaker 7: It has lots of very valuable information, and it's clearly 484 00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:36,076 Speaker 7: well informed and if you could check his information against 485 00:31:36,116 --> 00:31:38,556 Speaker 7: other sources, it's clearly accurate. But he also gives you 486 00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:40,876 Speaker 7: additional information which you won't get elsewhere. 487 00:31:41,836 --> 00:31:44,836 Speaker 3: So much additional information. Oh my god. 488 00:31:45,156 --> 00:31:50,436 Speaker 8: So he was a Bristol merchant. He was from quite 489 00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:52,996 Speaker 8: an important Bristol mercantile family. 490 00:31:53,956 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 3: Jonathan Berry, historian at the University of Etceter. The Knights 491 00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 3: ran sugar refineries, they had plantations in the Caribbean. They 492 00:32:02,236 --> 00:32:05,796 Speaker 3: were politically well connected and their sympathies did not lie 493 00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:09,436 Speaker 3: with the Catholic King of England, James the second John 494 00:32:09,516 --> 00:32:13,876 Speaker 3: Knight hated Catholics. One day he learns that a group 495 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:17,116 Speaker 3: of Irish Catholics are holding a secret mass in a 496 00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:21,796 Speaker 3: house in Bristol. He arranges to have the priest arrested. 497 00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:24,596 Speaker 7: So he gets the Lord Mayor and other magistrates to 498 00:32:24,796 --> 00:32:28,156 Speaker 7: raid this Catholic chapel to a couple of weeks later, 499 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:32,156 Speaker 7: there's an anti Catholic ritual in Bristol which the government 500 00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:35,796 Speaker 7: suspects the magistrates to Bristol and maybe Sir John Knight 501 00:32:35,836 --> 00:32:39,196 Speaker 7: were involved in encouraging, where they parade through the city 502 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:42,476 Speaker 7: scoffing the mass. Say they hold a piece of bread 503 00:32:42,556 --> 00:32:45,356 Speaker 7: up in the air, and they have someone dressed as 504 00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:47,316 Speaker 7: a Virgin Mary, and someone dressed as a monk, and 505 00:32:47,396 --> 00:32:49,316 Speaker 7: the monk is fonndeling the Virgin Mary. 506 00:32:49,596 --> 00:32:52,356 Speaker 3: The monk is fondling the Virgin Mary. 507 00:32:52,556 --> 00:32:54,516 Speaker 7: So the government is upset about this. 508 00:32:54,876 --> 00:32:57,756 Speaker 3: The King of England is a Catholic, remember. 509 00:32:57,716 --> 00:33:00,756 Speaker 7: And after that, Sir John Knight claims that he's threatened 510 00:33:01,076 --> 00:33:04,116 Speaker 7: and is beaten up by a couple of irishmen. So 511 00:33:04,156 --> 00:33:06,916 Speaker 7: Sir John Knight was advised to retire to a house 512 00:33:06,956 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 7: in the country. But because he was in fear of 513 00:33:10,636 --> 00:33:13,996 Speaker 7: beaten up. He was quite They beat him and kicked 514 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:19,316 Speaker 7: him when they attacked him when he came into Bristol. Subsequently, 515 00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:22,956 Speaker 7: he came with a company of people carrying swords and 516 00:33:23,756 --> 00:33:27,476 Speaker 7: muscus in front before him, but he left these at 517 00:33:27,516 --> 00:33:31,316 Speaker 7: the walls of the city, because you're not allowed to 518 00:33:31,316 --> 00:33:35,516 Speaker 7: carry arms into the city Bristol. Bristol had its own bylaws. 519 00:33:35,876 --> 00:33:39,196 Speaker 3: Yes, you heard that correctly. He checks his guns at 520 00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:42,556 Speaker 3: the gate. Now this is worth a slight digression. 521 00:33:42,716 --> 00:33:48,316 Speaker 8: We tend to forget how violent and militaristic seventeenth century 522 00:33:49,756 --> 00:33:53,236 Speaker 8: England in general, and a place like Bristol in particular were. 523 00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:55,196 Speaker 3: Jonathan Barry Again. 524 00:33:55,436 --> 00:33:57,796 Speaker 8: One reflection of the fact is that Bristol was a 525 00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:01,996 Speaker 8: leading place for private teering, where basically you capture the 526 00:34:02,036 --> 00:34:04,676 Speaker 8: ships of your rival traders, as it were, so you 527 00:34:04,796 --> 00:34:08,156 Speaker 8: load yourself up. Bristol is just beginning at this period 528 00:34:08,196 --> 00:34:12,996 Speaker 8: to get involved in the slave trade with Africa, which 529 00:34:12,996 --> 00:34:16,876 Speaker 8: of course both involved the use of military force, but also, 530 00:34:16,916 --> 00:34:18,796 Speaker 8: as you may know, that the chief one of the 531 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:21,796 Speaker 8: chief products that you actually took there to trade with 532 00:34:22,036 --> 00:34:26,076 Speaker 8: was arms, and one of the things that Bristol and 533 00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:28,876 Speaker 8: places around it were producing, in fact, were lots of arms. 534 00:34:28,916 --> 00:34:33,516 Speaker 8: But also they needed weapons, cannons for their ships and 535 00:34:33,556 --> 00:34:36,236 Speaker 8: so on. So we have to imagine the society in 536 00:34:36,236 --> 00:34:38,076 Speaker 8: which there are a lot of people that are used 537 00:34:38,276 --> 00:34:39,516 Speaker 8: to using weapons. 538 00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:42,676 Speaker 3: So why would the nightcase represent some kind of turning 539 00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:47,156 Speaker 3: point in British attitudes towards guns. Bristol was a washing guns, 540 00:34:47,636 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 3: so much so that they were forced to put gun 541 00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 3: control measures in place that put anything in America today 542 00:34:53,556 --> 00:34:54,076 Speaker 3: to shame. 543 00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:57,156 Speaker 8: I mean, I think it's absurd to think that the 544 00:34:57,156 --> 00:34:59,716 Speaker 8: crucial issue here was about whether a man was bearing 545 00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:02,636 Speaker 8: arms or not because of lots of people wandering around 546 00:35:02,716 --> 00:35:03,556 Speaker 8: bearing arms. 547 00:35:04,036 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 3: Anyway, back to our story with Tim Herris. 548 00:35:07,156 --> 00:35:10,236 Speaker 7: And then on one day he goes to church, and 549 00:35:10,276 --> 00:35:12,556 Speaker 7: he does go with his attendant and goes with a 550 00:35:12,636 --> 00:35:16,636 Speaker 7: gun and sword, but he leaves these, he says, he 551 00:35:16,756 --> 00:35:19,356 Speaker 7: leaves these at the porch with his attendant. 552 00:35:20,356 --> 00:35:23,476 Speaker 3: The church is Saint Michael's on the hill, his church, 553 00:35:23,996 --> 00:35:28,316 Speaker 3: the one overlooking Bristol. He gets off his horse, checks 554 00:35:28,356 --> 00:35:32,796 Speaker 3: his weapons at the door. It's not enormously significant here. 555 00:35:32,836 --> 00:35:36,036 Speaker 3: So here we have a case that Second Amendment types 556 00:35:36,076 --> 00:35:39,436 Speaker 3: are claiming, is this enormously important precedent for the right 557 00:35:39,836 --> 00:35:42,436 Speaker 3: of an individual to bear arms. But the individual in 558 00:35:42,556 --> 00:35:46,236 Speaker 3: question checks his arms at the door of the church. 559 00:35:48,356 --> 00:35:52,556 Speaker 3: I mean, it's like this is something to do. He's 560 00:35:52,596 --> 00:35:54,716 Speaker 3: not even he's not waving his gun around or claiming 561 00:35:54,756 --> 00:35:57,796 Speaker 3: he can wave his gun around. He he quite willingly 562 00:35:58,516 --> 00:36:02,156 Speaker 3: adheres to local norms about where guns should and shouldn't 563 00:36:02,156 --> 00:36:02,996 Speaker 3: be carried. 564 00:36:04,716 --> 00:36:07,556 Speaker 7: Yes, that seems to be the case. 565 00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:12,436 Speaker 3: Okay, So Knight enters the church and he shouts out, 566 00:36:12,676 --> 00:36:15,036 Speaker 3: the Catholics are trying to kill me, and they're going 567 00:36:15,116 --> 00:36:19,316 Speaker 3: to try and kill you too. Another quick digression. I 568 00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:22,876 Speaker 3: asked Jonathan Barry about that moment. One question before we 569 00:36:22,916 --> 00:36:24,636 Speaker 3: go on with the story. I want to go back 570 00:36:25,636 --> 00:36:28,956 Speaker 3: how Catholic was Bristol in this era, So. 571 00:36:28,956 --> 00:36:32,156 Speaker 8: If almost almost non existent? 572 00:36:33,036 --> 00:36:36,876 Speaker 3: Oh wait wait, so wait, So John Knight is going 573 00:36:36,916 --> 00:36:40,276 Speaker 3: into this parish church and saying we're all in danger 574 00:36:40,276 --> 00:36:42,876 Speaker 3: of being God freed by the Catholics. 575 00:36:42,476 --> 00:36:46,076 Speaker 8: Somebody, and the number of Catholics in Bristol to have 576 00:36:46,236 --> 00:36:48,396 Speaker 8: conducted such a plot was minuscule. 577 00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:52,396 Speaker 3: So he goes into this church and he says he 578 00:36:52,476 --> 00:36:55,996 Speaker 3: tries to kind of whip the church up into a 579 00:36:56,036 --> 00:36:59,236 Speaker 3: frenzy about the Irish threat and the government says, you've 580 00:36:59,236 --> 00:37:02,636 Speaker 3: gone too far. He's implying that the Catholic king is 581 00:37:02,676 --> 00:37:07,396 Speaker 3: somehow conspiring against his own people, and that's when he 582 00:37:07,436 --> 00:37:10,876 Speaker 3: gets in trouble with the law. Yes, he doesn't sound 583 00:37:10,916 --> 00:37:12,156 Speaker 3: very likable, Sir John Knight. 584 00:37:12,516 --> 00:37:14,796 Speaker 8: Nobody appears to have liked Sir John Knight. 585 00:37:15,356 --> 00:37:20,356 Speaker 3: No, the government goes after John Knight because he's a jackass. 586 00:37:20,876 --> 00:37:25,676 Speaker 3: He's running around conjuring up ridiculous conspiracy theories about Catholics. 587 00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:31,236 Speaker 7: So the charge. All the newsletter accounts I've read emphasize 588 00:37:31,996 --> 00:37:35,596 Speaker 7: that it's the words that he spoke in the church, 589 00:37:36,356 --> 00:37:40,996 Speaker 7: which and therefore this was proof of his disloyalty. That 590 00:37:41,236 --> 00:37:44,156 Speaker 7: was a key issue for why they wanted to arrest him. 591 00:37:44,596 --> 00:37:48,476 Speaker 7: That I decide to get him on the Statute of Northampton, 592 00:37:49,676 --> 00:37:53,276 Speaker 7: which is a statute from thirteen twenty eight saying it's 593 00:37:53,276 --> 00:37:56,676 Speaker 7: a breach of the peace, and he pleaded not guilty. 594 00:37:56,876 --> 00:38:00,476 Speaker 7: He claims that he didn't take the gun or the 595 00:38:00,516 --> 00:38:04,756 Speaker 7: sword into the church. He left it outside. And the 596 00:38:04,836 --> 00:38:07,276 Speaker 7: church is actually just outside the walls of the city 597 00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:11,356 Speaker 7: of Bristol as it was back then as Protestant church. Obviously, 598 00:38:12,036 --> 00:38:16,396 Speaker 7: and he leaves the gun and the sword outside, and 599 00:38:16,796 --> 00:38:20,436 Speaker 7: the jury said, he's got a proven track record of 600 00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:24,516 Speaker 7: being loyal to the government, and so they found him 601 00:38:24,556 --> 00:38:25,476 Speaker 7: not guilty. 602 00:38:25,516 --> 00:38:28,836 Speaker 3: Because he didn't brandish a gun in church. The jury 603 00:38:28,956 --> 00:38:32,316 Speaker 3: didn't find him disloyal because they knew he'd been loyal 604 00:38:32,356 --> 00:38:36,036 Speaker 3: to the previous Protestant king. He wasn't armed, so they 605 00:38:36,036 --> 00:38:39,116 Speaker 3: couldn't get him on that. He just didn't like Catholics. 606 00:38:39,676 --> 00:38:42,956 Speaker 3: And so what this is Bristol in sixteen eighty six. 607 00:38:43,316 --> 00:38:46,876 Speaker 3: No one in Bristol in sixteen eighty six likes Catholics. 608 00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:50,956 Speaker 3: The case against him is dead on arrival. And by 609 00:38:50,956 --> 00:38:53,596 Speaker 3: the way, no one knows this better than the government. 610 00:38:54,316 --> 00:38:58,276 Speaker 7: So they actually don't want to prosecute Knights. They actually 611 00:38:58,316 --> 00:39:01,436 Speaker 7: want Knight to apologize, and then they try and bury 612 00:39:01,476 --> 00:39:04,276 Speaker 7: the case. That seems to be what's implied in the 613 00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:07,596 Speaker 7: newsletter accounts I've read. That doesn't happen. They would have 614 00:39:07,636 --> 00:39:10,876 Speaker 7: preferred if he's apoon, they could have said, okay, we'll 615 00:39:10,916 --> 00:39:11,276 Speaker 7: let it go. 616 00:39:12,476 --> 00:39:16,596 Speaker 3: So to recap John Knight's episode in the Church of 617 00:39:16,636 --> 00:39:19,876 Speaker 3: Saint Michael has become a heroic moment to the American 618 00:39:19,916 --> 00:39:23,636 Speaker 3: gun rights movement. Even though John Knight wasn't actually carrying 619 00:39:23,636 --> 00:39:26,316 Speaker 3: a gun when he entered the Church of Saint Michael, 620 00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:29,156 Speaker 3: even though the case against him had nothing to do 621 00:39:29,236 --> 00:39:32,356 Speaker 3: with guns, even though Bristol in fact had gun control 622 00:39:32,516 --> 00:39:35,956 Speaker 3: ordinances that puts every gun control ordinance in America today 623 00:39:35,996 --> 00:39:39,996 Speaker 3: to shame, And even though the whole Brew ha was 624 00:39:40,156 --> 00:39:42,956 Speaker 3: just about him being a bigot who was terrified of 625 00:39:42,996 --> 00:39:47,116 Speaker 3: a Catholic conspiracy taking over Bristol, even though there were 626 00:39:47,116 --> 00:39:50,956 Speaker 3: hardly any Catholics in Bristol, and even though the whole 627 00:39:50,956 --> 00:39:54,756 Speaker 3: case was dead on arrival, and Knight could have apologized 628 00:39:55,116 --> 00:39:57,836 Speaker 3: and made it all go away, and just didn't feel 629 00:39:57,876 --> 00:40:01,076 Speaker 3: like it. But the only way you would know all 630 00:40:01,116 --> 00:40:03,676 Speaker 3: this is if you were willing to wade to the 631 00:40:03,716 --> 00:40:09,876 Speaker 3: seven volumes of Roger Morris's coded newsletters. And who has 632 00:40:09,916 --> 00:40:14,996 Speaker 3: time for that? I was reading the did you read 633 00:40:15,036 --> 00:40:19,236 Speaker 3: There's the historian Tim Harris wrote an essay on I 634 00:40:19,396 --> 00:40:21,796 Speaker 3: was amused to see there was That? In his he 635 00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:25,036 Speaker 3: talks about the John Night case, about how when he 636 00:40:25,116 --> 00:40:31,716 Speaker 3: goes to the church, the Protestant Church, to speak to 637 00:40:31,756 --> 00:40:34,316 Speaker 3: what he thought of was the threat being posed by 638 00:40:34,316 --> 00:40:38,516 Speaker 3: the Catholics and Bristol. He insists that he checks his 639 00:40:39,236 --> 00:40:41,876 Speaker 3: weapons at the front of the church. And he also 640 00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:45,516 Speaker 3: says that when he goes into Bristol, he abided by 641 00:40:45,556 --> 00:40:49,116 Speaker 3: the bylaws of Bristol and didn't carry his weapons into 642 00:40:49,156 --> 00:40:55,596 Speaker 3: the past the city's limits. I wondered how Joyce Malcolm 643 00:40:55,676 --> 00:40:58,236 Speaker 3: made sense of all these new facts. The Roger Morris 644 00:40:58,316 --> 00:41:02,556 Speaker 3: newsletters were finally decoded more than ten years after she 645 00:41:02,636 --> 00:41:07,996 Speaker 3: wrote her opus to keep him bare arms. So I'm 646 00:41:07,996 --> 00:41:11,196 Speaker 3: just curious that how do those sort of two facts 647 00:41:11,196 --> 00:41:14,156 Speaker 3: fit into this story. So even if we have if 648 00:41:14,156 --> 00:41:20,476 Speaker 3: the Sir John Knight case represents some kind of affirmation 649 00:41:20,636 --> 00:41:23,396 Speaker 3: of the individual right to peace will carry So John 650 00:41:23,476 --> 00:41:29,836 Speaker 3: Knight himself is complying with some pretty strict gun control laws, 651 00:41:29,876 --> 00:41:30,236 Speaker 3: isn't he. 652 00:41:31,756 --> 00:41:35,036 Speaker 6: I think, to be honest that I think that Professor 653 00:41:35,076 --> 00:41:39,796 Speaker 6: Harris is wrong. First of all, because there was such 654 00:41:39,796 --> 00:41:42,356 Speaker 6: a there was all of these duties and requirements to 655 00:41:42,396 --> 00:41:46,476 Speaker 6: protect yourself. And in the in the judge's opinion in 656 00:41:46,516 --> 00:41:49,276 Speaker 6: the in the Sir John Knight case, he says that 657 00:41:49,316 --> 00:41:54,876 Speaker 6: the law allows gentlemen to go about with arms as 658 00:41:54,876 --> 00:41:58,796 Speaker 6: long as they're not you know, unusual and the dangerous weapons. 659 00:41:59,356 --> 00:42:02,876 Speaker 6: So the judge seems at odds with Professor Harris. 660 00:42:03,916 --> 00:42:07,796 Speaker 3: But what do you make of Sir John Knight's claim 661 00:42:07,876 --> 00:42:11,036 Speaker 3: that he checked his weapons at the front of the 662 00:42:11,116 --> 00:42:13,876 Speaker 3: church and didn't carry his weapons into the city of Bristol. 663 00:42:16,436 --> 00:42:20,196 Speaker 6: I find that very odd because if that were the case, 664 00:42:20,236 --> 00:42:22,116 Speaker 6: if there was a law that he couldn't carry his 665 00:42:22,156 --> 00:42:24,876 Speaker 6: weapons into the city of Bristol at all, that the 666 00:42:24,916 --> 00:42:27,676 Speaker 6: whole city was what we would now call a sensitive 667 00:42:27,716 --> 00:42:31,476 Speaker 6: place that no one could wear. It goes against your 668 00:42:31,556 --> 00:42:33,996 Speaker 6: right to protect yourself. That goes against your right to 669 00:42:33,996 --> 00:42:37,236 Speaker 6: protect yourself in your house. It goes against the judges ruling. 670 00:42:38,276 --> 00:42:44,476 Speaker 6: And to be honest, Professor Harris is British. They don't 671 00:42:44,516 --> 00:42:46,116 Speaker 6: think much of the right to be armed. 672 00:42:47,396 --> 00:42:50,436 Speaker 3: The homicide rate in the United States, if you're wondering, 673 00:42:50,996 --> 00:42:54,196 Speaker 3: is four and a half times higher than the United Kingdom. 674 00:42:55,276 --> 00:43:00,596 Speaker 6: When I explored that right and told my British friends 675 00:43:00,716 --> 00:43:03,516 Speaker 6: about it, most of them didn't even realize they ever 676 00:43:03,596 --> 00:43:06,556 Speaker 6: had had a right to be armed. There's this whole 677 00:43:06,636 --> 00:43:09,956 Speaker 6: history and that they haven't looked. And I think it 678 00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:13,356 Speaker 6: was because I said earlier, I asked an American question 679 00:43:13,876 --> 00:43:19,236 Speaker 6: we were interested in that they weren't particularly interested in 680 00:43:20,596 --> 00:43:23,756 Speaker 6: a right to be armed, and so it wasn't something 681 00:43:23,796 --> 00:43:27,356 Speaker 6: that they had studied or been even very curious about 682 00:43:27,476 --> 00:43:29,076 Speaker 6: until I started to write about it. 683 00:43:29,516 --> 00:43:32,796 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, But if the British are interested in a 684 00:43:32,916 --> 00:43:36,756 Speaker 3: right to bear arms, then why are we drawing on 685 00:43:36,796 --> 00:43:40,396 Speaker 3: British Why is the British tradition relevant to the discussion 686 00:43:40,436 --> 00:43:43,436 Speaker 3: of American individual gun rights? 687 00:43:43,996 --> 00:43:46,276 Speaker 6: I think this was a history that was lost to them. 688 00:43:46,356 --> 00:43:49,236 Speaker 6: I think modern British people have a different view of it. 689 00:43:49,916 --> 00:43:54,076 Speaker 6: They're much more dependent on the state taking care of them, 690 00:43:54,236 --> 00:44:00,396 Speaker 6: particularly since World War Two. This is earlier British history. 691 00:44:00,556 --> 00:44:02,756 Speaker 6: Is there a history that they really were not that 692 00:44:02,916 --> 00:44:06,596 Speaker 6: familiar with? You know, they were looking at other things? 693 00:44:07,596 --> 00:44:09,796 Speaker 6: And I think that one of the I guess the 694 00:44:09,836 --> 00:44:12,116 Speaker 6: contribution I made was that I was an American that 695 00:44:12,196 --> 00:44:16,156 Speaker 6: looked at British history in English history with American questions, 696 00:44:16,196 --> 00:44:17,756 Speaker 6: with the things we were interested in. 697 00:44:18,316 --> 00:44:23,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, and what is the Supreme Court? How did the 698 00:44:23,116 --> 00:44:26,036 Speaker 3: highest legal body in the land, in the landmark ruling 699 00:44:26,076 --> 00:44:28,876 Speaker 3: of New York State Pistol and Rifle Association v. Bruin 700 00:44:29,476 --> 00:44:32,516 Speaker 3: handle the fact that their hero has feet of clay. 701 00:44:33,236 --> 00:44:34,476 Speaker 13: I know I had a summarized summer. 702 00:44:34,716 --> 00:44:40,076 Speaker 9: Let me see I think that's it. 703 00:44:41,916 --> 00:44:46,956 Speaker 3: Yes, I asked Patrick Charles to read me the relevant section. 704 00:44:47,676 --> 00:44:51,556 Speaker 13: To the extent that there are multiple plausible interpretations of 705 00:44:51,596 --> 00:44:53,796 Speaker 13: Sir John Knight's case, we will favor the one that 706 00:44:53,916 --> 00:44:56,636 Speaker 13: is more consistent with the Second Amendments command. 707 00:44:59,996 --> 00:45:03,596 Speaker 3: Which, in other words, there's a whole long list of 708 00:45:03,596 --> 00:45:05,356 Speaker 3: ways we can make sense of this. We're going to 709 00:45:05,356 --> 00:45:08,516 Speaker 3: pick the one we like the most. Okay, that's exactly. 710 00:45:09,316 --> 00:45:12,116 Speaker 3: That's the one that makes our life easiest in arguing 711 00:45:12,276 --> 00:45:15,716 Speaker 3: the case we've already decided we want to argue. It's 712 00:45:16,636 --> 00:45:18,076 Speaker 3: like history is cherry picking. 713 00:45:18,276 --> 00:45:19,516 Speaker 13: Oh, it's so cherry picked. 714 00:45:21,036 --> 00:45:24,676 Speaker 3: The Supreme Court decides to clear up the ambiguity over 715 00:45:24,676 --> 00:45:27,916 Speaker 3: the Second Amendment. Let us leave the verdict to history, 716 00:45:28,236 --> 00:45:31,556 Speaker 3: they declare. But then their hero turns out to have 717 00:45:31,596 --> 00:45:34,436 Speaker 3: feet of clay. So they shrug and go on with 718 00:45:34,476 --> 00:45:36,396 Speaker 3: the things that they had already made up their mind 719 00:45:36,396 --> 00:45:39,476 Speaker 3: to do before they tried to convince us that they 720 00:45:39,516 --> 00:45:43,276 Speaker 3: wanted to play historian and go to England and make 721 00:45:43,316 --> 00:45:46,636 Speaker 3: their pilgrimage to Saint Michael on the Hill and pretend 722 00:45:46,876 --> 00:45:49,516 Speaker 3: that the man who they have chosen to symbolize the 723 00:45:49,516 --> 00:45:53,156 Speaker 3: grand tradition of American gun rights is something other than 724 00:45:53,196 --> 00:45:57,636 Speaker 3: a jackass. And after far too many hours reconstructing the 725 00:45:57,676 --> 00:46:01,436 Speaker 3: history of this jackass, I realized that I had fallen 726 00:46:01,596 --> 00:46:04,916 Speaker 3: into the same trap that we've all fallen into in 727 00:46:04,956 --> 00:46:08,076 Speaker 3: his country when it comes to gun violence. We're talking 728 00:46:08,436 --> 00:46:13,356 Speaker 3: about the wrong things, telling irrelevant stories. And over the 729 00:46:13,356 --> 00:46:16,796 Speaker 3: course of the next five episodes of Revisionist History, I 730 00:46:16,876 --> 00:46:20,196 Speaker 3: want to try and change that conversation. I'm going to 731 00:46:20,236 --> 00:46:23,276 Speaker 3: take you to North Carolina to shoot guns, Visit an 732 00:46:23,316 --> 00:46:25,756 Speaker 3: old man in Alabama with a crazy story to tell, 733 00:46:26,036 --> 00:46:30,556 Speaker 3: Revisit the assassination of Robert Kennedy, on and on, but 734 00:46:30,596 --> 00:46:35,476 Speaker 3: no more John Knight. I promise we've all had it 735 00:46:35,516 --> 00:46:41,236 Speaker 3: with John Knight. 736 00:46:44,316 --> 00:46:48,556 Speaker 7: What kind of person was he? Not sort of person 737 00:46:48,596 --> 00:46:50,196 Speaker 7: I want to have a drink with. It was a 738 00:46:50,276 --> 00:46:53,436 Speaker 7: nasty piece of work, really, he was vindictive and spiteful. 739 00:46:53,476 --> 00:46:57,756 Speaker 7: He's a biggot, he's a trouble maker. He's obviously deliberately 740 00:46:57,796 --> 00:47:01,596 Speaker 7: going out to try and provoke trouble in April sixteen 741 00:47:01,716 --> 00:47:04,716 Speaker 7: eighty six when he gets his priests arrested because he's 742 00:47:04,716 --> 00:47:07,756 Speaker 7: staring things up. So yeah, not a nice piece of work. 743 00:47:07,836 --> 00:47:10,636 Speaker 7: That's my basic view of him, he's involved in the 744 00:47:10,676 --> 00:47:14,276 Speaker 7: slave traders sugar refiner. I would hardly see that he 745 00:47:14,436 --> 00:47:18,036 Speaker 7: was the sort of hero figure the champions of American 746 00:47:18,116 --> 00:47:21,556 Speaker 7: liberty would want to celebrate, although maybe that's not the point. 747 00:47:22,396 --> 00:47:44,356 Speaker 2: Oh Our revisionist history Gun series was produced by Jacob Smith, Bend, 748 00:47:44,476 --> 00:47:48,716 Speaker 2: daph Haffrey, Kiara Powell, Tally Emlin, and Leeming Gistuo. 749 00:47:49,996 --> 00:47:53,396 Speaker 3: We were edited by Peter Clowney and Julia Barton, fact 750 00:47:53,516 --> 00:47:57,836 Speaker 3: checking by Arthur Gomperts and Kashelle Williams. Original scoring by 751 00:47:57,916 --> 00:48:02,236 Speaker 3: Luis Kira, with vocals in this episode by the Magnificent 752 00:48:02,556 --> 00:48:08,356 Speaker 3: Ethan Herschenfeld. Mastering by Flon Williams. Engineering by Nina Lawrence. 753 00:48:09,676 --> 00:48:10,716 Speaker 3: I'm Malcolm Bad