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Speaker 1: This is me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to hunt podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear

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Speaker 1: for every hunt first, like go farther, stay longer. I

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Speaker 1: spent five hours teaching my nephew how to play cribbage.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to spend five hours teaching me because

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Speaker 1: he's six years old. That is not no, you know,

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Speaker 1: but he was just like, I want to learn this

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Speaker 1: everybody else's playing at because it was dumping rain the

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Speaker 1: whole time, and ma'am okay, Tannon five, Tanon five? What's

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Speaker 1: tanon five? Like a cribbage become the We're in a cabin,

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Speaker 1: we have nothing to do. Everybody, it's the best two

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Speaker 1: person card game out there. That's really my old man,

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Speaker 1: you might as well run it, turn it the machine

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Speaker 1: on in my old man. In my old man's old age,

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Speaker 1: him and his friends were very into taking any kind

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Speaker 1: of oddball item and drilling whatever hundreds of holes you

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Speaker 1: need to drill into it to make a cribbage score card.

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Speaker 1: So if like someone found an antler, right, you do

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Speaker 1: that with it. If someone's like, look at this old

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Speaker 1: bowling pin at a heart at a yard sale, they

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Speaker 1: would band saw the bowling pin and a half and

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Speaker 1: then I want to take it home, and my dad

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Speaker 1: would take his home and they'd go up and drill

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Speaker 1: holes in it. Yeah, hunters, and they would have a bowl,

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Speaker 1: a bowling pin, crimpage board. Yeah, it didn't matter what,

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Speaker 1: anything that would accommodate one on it. I know you're

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Speaker 1: not a card game enthusiast, and if either of you,

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Speaker 1: if your brothers aren't either, Oh no, we played cards

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Speaker 1: like a madman growing up. Yeah, but I've offered to

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Speaker 1: to play with you since we've known each other. Well,

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Speaker 1: I just want to saying around, I'd be honored to

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Speaker 1: take it and keep it, you know, alive. When I

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Speaker 1: go home. When I go home to visit my mom

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Speaker 1: soon here, I will bring you back. I'll probably bring

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Speaker 1: you a bowling ball, one bowling pin, one which I

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Speaker 1: feel still laying around. I'll definitely find some antler ones

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Speaker 1: and I'll bring him to you. We played. We used

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Speaker 1: to throw craps on an army blanket because that's how

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Speaker 1: my dad did it in the army we would, Um,

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Speaker 1: he'd like pin He'd lay the blanket on the ground

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Speaker 1: and pin it up the wall as the backboard. She said,

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Speaker 1: when you're throwing apps in the army, it needs to

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Speaker 1: be quiet, so you it wouldn't make any noise. You

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Speaker 1: threw the dice and it hit a wall, a wool

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Speaker 1: blanket hanging on the wall, and would be like silent crabs. Um.

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Speaker 1: We played a lot of poker, a lot of poker,

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Speaker 1: and everybody had like a sock follow change, Mm hmm,

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Speaker 1: go get your sock, dude. I could tell you, like

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Speaker 1: a very great story about one of those socks. Will

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Speaker 1: the change if I couldn't do it on this show

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Speaker 1: doesn't involve violance, it was. I would absolutely tell a

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Speaker 1: violent story. It's not a violent story. It's a sexy story.

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Speaker 1: But yeah. Joined today by John Mollem, who's been on

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Speaker 1: the show how many times? Once twice twice, at least twice.

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Speaker 1: He has a brand spickitty new book out, Serious Face

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Speaker 1: Essays by John Wellem, several of which pertained to the

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Speaker 1: stuff we like to talk about. That's right, because you, um,

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Speaker 1: you have a things you're right about. One of the

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Speaker 1: things you write about. I don't know if you describe

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Speaker 1: it this way, but you write a lot about human

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Speaker 1: relationships with nature, especially when they get a little they

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Speaker 1: go a little haywire. I think that's like, how do

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Speaker 1: you put it? I like to think of it as

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Speaker 1: I like to write about people who are getting really

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Speaker 1: confused by animals, you know, because the there's lots of

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Speaker 1: stories where a bunch of people are doing very confusing,

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Speaker 1: nutty things, trying to accomplish something, and there's an animal

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Speaker 1: right in the center of the story, and the animal

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Speaker 1: can't tell its side of the story, so you just

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Speaker 1: get to deal with all the people acting crazy. And

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Speaker 1: something about that really scratches an itch for me. Like

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Speaker 1: if you could go to a monk seal and say

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Speaker 1: what do you think about all of this? You know what,

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Speaker 1: I think he'd say. I think he wouldn't know that

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Speaker 1: it's going on, absolutely not. I always say that the

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Speaker 1: animals always have no comment, you know, and that in

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Speaker 1: some ways I think that that brings the crazyness of

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Speaker 1: people into higher reliase because they get to speak for it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because if you they get to speak for it, and

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Speaker 1: it turns out that it says many different things to them,

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Speaker 1: to many different people. And if you have a story

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Speaker 1: where there's some kind of controversy among people, then you

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Speaker 1: have to go around as a journalist and talk to

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Speaker 1: all of those people and align their accounts and somehow

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Speaker 1: makes sense of all their different stories. But if one

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Speaker 1: the main character in the story is an animal and

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Speaker 1: they're not talking, then you can just show the nuttiness

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Speaker 1: of people. It's a very pure way I think to

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Speaker 1: show how dysfunctional we are as a species is to

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Speaker 1: show us kind of colliding up against some other species.

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Speaker 1: I can't tell if I'm gonna beat your ass in trivia?

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Speaker 1: Are you staying for trivia? You're definitely gonna beat my

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Speaker 1: ass in trivia without a doubt. No, I think that

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Speaker 1: you don't know. I think you're going to be a

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Speaker 1: strong player. I think you're gonna be a very strong player.

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Speaker 1: I think you've already gotten in my head where I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling like you're gonna beat my ass trivia. So my

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Speaker 1: game is collapsed. Okay, well we'll see, we'll see my

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Speaker 1: game is so I started out strong. Um, we'll have

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Speaker 1: already talked about this, but our trivia show has gone weekly. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's a weekly release hosted by Spencer new heart. I

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Speaker 1: think you'll do good, but I think I'll beat you

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Speaker 1: because here's the deal. You'll do good on all the

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Speaker 1: geography like history stuff, you'll do good on, but there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be some like technical there's gonna be some technical

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Speaker 1: archery question or something that I might be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I remember what that is, and you're just not going

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Speaker 1: to know. I mean, am I the only guest you've

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Speaker 1: ever had on the show who's never hunted? So I'm

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Speaker 1: already a disadvantage. I feel you're of a very small few. No,

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Speaker 1: that's not really true. Okay, As a casual listener to

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Speaker 1: the show, I definitely feel like I'm I'm not qualified

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Speaker 1: to be here. But like, but that's gonna come out

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Speaker 1: in the trivia. But I know for a fact that

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Speaker 1: you almost hunted, that's right, because you got real curious

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Speaker 1: about the deer in your yard. Well, you've got me

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Speaker 1: a real curious about it. I did go hunting once.

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Speaker 1: We may have talked about this once. I did go

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Speaker 1: hunting once, but we did not see an elk the

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Speaker 1: whole time I was out there, and that sharpened my

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Speaker 1: appreciation for hunting for sure. Where are you at with

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Speaker 1: the deer in New yard right now, you haven't eaten one.

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Speaker 1: Well know, the where I'm at with the deer in

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Speaker 1: my yard is I spent a lot of the pandemic

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Speaker 1: building a deer fence, and it became like, you know, my, my,

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Speaker 1: what's what like? It was like my Vietnam. You know.

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Speaker 1: It was like me just like in an intractable situation,

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Speaker 1: biting off more than I could chew, trying to protect

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Speaker 1: your garden, trying to protect my garden. I mean mostly okay,

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Speaker 1: so it mostly started as I was really a yes, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean I was so I had I had the

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Speaker 1: last book I had come out, came out on March,

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Speaker 1: I think, so I had all this time blocked out.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna go on a big book tour, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was going to be like a big deal. And

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Speaker 1: then it all got crushed. And I was home doing

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Speaker 1: Zoom second grade with my daughter, just hating life. And

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Speaker 1: I got real mad one day and I went out

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Speaker 1: and there's I live on Bambridge Island. There's not much

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Speaker 1: to do there. So I drove out of my driveway

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Speaker 1: in a in a huff, and I went and I bought.

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Speaker 1: I went to the garden center because that was like

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Speaker 1: the only place you could go to blow up some steam,

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Speaker 1: and I impulse bought four little fruit trees. And then

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Speaker 1: I got home and I realized the deer are gonna

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Speaker 1: tear these things apart. So I decided I would just

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Speaker 1: build a fence around the little fruit trees. And then

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, why don't I just build a

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Speaker 1: fence around everything? And that really spiraled out of control.

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Speaker 1: So I built like it's something like six hundred feet

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Speaker 1: of fence, and um, it took me, I mean many

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Speaker 1: ups and downs, psychological as well as logistical. I think

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Speaker 1: I did all right for someone had never done it.

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Speaker 1: Be like what you put in a wooden post and yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then deer netting through some of the woods and stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I finally finished in July, and I had an

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Speaker 1: opening ceremony two for all the people would help me.

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Speaker 1: I invited them, I gave some some remarks, I gave

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Speaker 1: a little speech. In front of the fence. We had

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Speaker 1: like red, white and blue bunting on the fence. We

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Speaker 1: had a cake, we had a fence cake. And since then,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to report there's only been like one or

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Speaker 1: two occasions when I've seen a deer inside the fence,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's because my fence butts against my

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Speaker 1: neighbor's fence and they're jumping over that fence. So the

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Speaker 1: next summer's project could be that's that's your Cambodia, that's

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Speaker 1: that's right Vietnam. It said the right thing. Um. So

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Speaker 1: that's the situation where the deer is that there. We've

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Speaker 1: sort of reached an understanding. I think, um that is

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Speaker 1: becoming uh, it's ZEITGEISTI in a way, because that's becoming

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Speaker 1: a thing um where I grew up is they are

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Speaker 1: taking orchards um, and I mean hundreds of acres of

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Speaker 1: orchard and building exclosures, which was just not a thing

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Speaker 1: as a kid. And I think this is going to

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Speaker 1: have We're talking about major reductions in habit deer habitat

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Speaker 1: in that instead of trying to protect individual saplings, these

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Speaker 1: are orchards around my buddy Maths place. They're a bunch

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Speaker 1: of them. Now they're doing it with state funding, like

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Speaker 1: state offsets, because it's just pist and match about it's

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Speaker 1: the state's deer, right. They're building these deerproof fence around

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Speaker 1: like several hundred acre farms and being like there are

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Speaker 1: no deer on this chunk of land anymore. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what I did with my not several Yeah, that bumbs

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Speaker 1: me out that you did that. Well, I left half

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Speaker 1: to write an article about that. I left half the property.

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Speaker 1: The deer can go there. They just you know you

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Speaker 1: you did the same thing with your garden. No, I

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Speaker 1: didn't do my yard, and in my garden he didn't do.

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Speaker 1: I did about it's probably like two and a half acres. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a sizeable fans. Yeah, and what do you think

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Speaker 1: birds come in there? No, as soon as I see

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Speaker 1: a bird, um. No, But you know, the coyotes still

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Speaker 1: come through. They still come in because the wooden panels

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Speaker 1: of the fence, the openings are fairly large. Build the fence,

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Speaker 1: then we got a dog. The dog goes right through

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Speaker 1: the fence. That was dumb, you know, get the dog first,

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Speaker 1: then build a fence. But yeah, the deer, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's plenty of room for the deer on Bainbridge. I'm

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Speaker 1: not worried about them. John joined us on episode two

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Speaker 1: sixty six. Okay, threre times a charm. Creane calls you

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Speaker 1: a brilliant writer. Thank you, I love this. Um Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna getting all that. Oh we just we just

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Speaker 1: reminded everybody that the podcast is not weekly. Is there

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Speaker 1: anything in here and I need to say about that

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcast, Apple, Spotify, et cetera. But

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Speaker 1: do you don't have to subscribe to like another show

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Speaker 1: its Feet, It serves on this feed. You don't need

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Speaker 1: to do ship right, So stay if you are. If

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Speaker 1: you have not subscribed to the Meat Eat podcast feed

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Speaker 1: on the various platforms that you listen on, please subscribe,

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Speaker 1: and Trivia will just slide in on my phone. I

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Speaker 1: have a little thing in my notes on my phone.

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Speaker 1: I have a thing called podcast, and I just write

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Speaker 1: down things that I feel like I should talk about

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Speaker 1: on the show. I was in the Fort Myer, Florida

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Speaker 1: airport and there was two I was like by two

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Speaker 1: girls that sort of like ran it, knew each other

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Speaker 1: and ran into each other unexpectedly. I love when that happens.

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Speaker 1: One of them said, this is a quote where you

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Speaker 1: headed end quote quote to Durango to stay in a yurt.

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Speaker 1: I had pointed out that like your stairs were they

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Speaker 1: very hipsterish like the rs so like I feel that

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Speaker 1: yours are very left wing and it's like staying in

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Speaker 1: a year has become like a thing in and of itself.

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Speaker 1: You would never say, I'm going to Durango to stay

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Speaker 1: in a tent. Do you know what I'm saying. You'd

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Speaker 1: be like, I'm going to Durango to stay in a camper.

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Speaker 1: It's like a market. It's like you're defining yourself. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're attaching yourself to that type of person who goes

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Speaker 1: around and stays in another thing. I might not. I

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Speaker 1: gotta hit a couple of these things. And does this

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Speaker 1: person even though that your is a ubiquitous term. That's

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Speaker 1: a lot of different structures like, um, yeah, I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't interview that. John would have been in their interviewing,

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Speaker 1: But no, I didn't even know that. Um My, buddy,

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Speaker 1: ron he's telling me about his pet crow as a kid,

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Speaker 1: like Seth had a crow and Ronnie had a crow,

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Speaker 1: and he when he was little, he got it out

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Speaker 1: of the cemetery him his buddies each took one, climbed

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Speaker 1: up and got him out of a nest, and he

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Speaker 1: raised it up and the crow would like to go

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Speaker 1: out with him hunting other birds. He was little, he

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Speaker 1: had a pellet gun, and he'd shoot a bird okay,

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Speaker 1: and the crow would Peckett's eyes out, and then the

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Speaker 1: crow would eat the bird's liver. And I knew that much,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't know this. One day, Ronnie and this crow,

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Speaker 1: we're out and Ronnie dropped a pellet while he was

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Speaker 1: loading his pellet gun. The crow ate it and died

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Speaker 1: right in front of him. That's some lived by the sword,

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Speaker 1: died by the sword ship right there. Last one, Cal,

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Speaker 1: I had a dream in which you said, and this

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Speaker 1: is the greatest line you've ever said. You said that

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Speaker 1: you hold on in your dream dream state. The only

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Speaker 1: good thing Calls said is something that's the best thing

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Speaker 1: your version of Cal. You imagine it's you using cow.

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Speaker 1: It's like a ventrilo because dummy in your sleep, he said,

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Speaker 1: he said he's so tired that his nose hairs are

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Speaker 1: hanging straight down. That's like, that's so tired. Your nose

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Speaker 1: hair has lost their curl. You know that type of

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Speaker 1: that type of tired. It's great. That should be on

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Speaker 1: the shirt. Oh, tune in right now because tomorrow tune

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Speaker 1: to the meat Eater YouTube channel. Go on YouTube, subscribe

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Speaker 1: to meat eater and you'll see Uh, a very own

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Speaker 1: Jannis to tell Us and Kevin Gillespie preparing a dish

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Speaker 1: with Yanni's special big horn. Ram, Yanni can't remember what

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Speaker 1: it was delicious. I have all the ingredients to make

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Speaker 1: more of it. I'm trying to Masala. No, wasn't Massala.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I heard like vind like something that's spicy.

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Speaker 1: What We're losing a lot of lists. They're not listening

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Speaker 1: to this. Uh. We just had the Dustin Hoff shooter

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Speaker 1: of the huff Buck, so he was on the show.

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Speaker 1: If he were listening, Um, Dustin Hoff from Indiana killed

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Speaker 1: a giant buck. Realize pretty quickly that it must be

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Speaker 1: the biggest buck ever killed in Indiana. Turns was the

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Speaker 1: biggest typical white tail ever killed in the U. S A.

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Speaker 1: As a joke, kind of as a joke, he was

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Speaker 1: giving away so much information about where the buck was

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Speaker 1: that kind of as a joke. We were bleeping out

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Speaker 1: names of surrounding landowners. Doug rode In, Doug durn Our, beloved,

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Speaker 1: Dug durn bubbly Doug rode In. The bleeping of the

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Speaker 1: names of the landowners near where this guy killed that

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Speaker 1: big giant buck is funny and adds to the story

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Speaker 1: in a great and humorous way. But it makes me

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Speaker 1: think of two things. One that Buck is dead. The

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Speaker 1: odds of another like him being around is unlikely. So

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Speaker 1: that's chasing a ghost. This from a man that killed

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Speaker 1: the standard, which remains. He was shocked when he found it,

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Speaker 1: killed it, and never another one. Right, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of nice knocks and ye like, maybe not, maybe they're

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Speaker 1: not the freak, but nice but right his second comment,

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Speaker 1: it reminds me this is Doug talking again. It reminds

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Speaker 1: me of what the wise and beautiful Pat Dirkin said

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Speaker 1: to me when I brought up my concerns about drawing

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Speaker 1: hunters from out of the area to the Casanovia Northeast

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Speaker 1: Richland County by saying where I killed the standard In

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Speaker 1: an article he was writing for the national publication Quality

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Speaker 1: White Tails. He goes on to say, I'm paraphrasing Pat

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Speaker 1: and my experience, So this is this is him paraphrasing

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Speaker 1: Pat Dirkin says, in my experience, people from outside the

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Speaker 1: area don't become a problem. It's the locals that were

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Speaker 1: and are the problem. And they already know all about

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Speaker 1: the big deer on your place and the area Doug

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Speaker 1: then goes on to say my experiences that Pat was

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Speaker 1: spot on with that assessment. Dustin Huff pointed out in

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Speaker 1: the podcast episode is me talking, not Pat or Doug.

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Speaker 1: Dust Huff point out the podcast episode that since that

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Speaker 1: he killed this big giant buck, they have found a

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Speaker 1: few bucks dead with their heads cut off, decapitated um.

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Speaker 1: And he was talking about that, and he was attributing

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Speaker 1: it to people coming to that area now with big

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Speaker 1: buck fever. Doug says, I guarantee you the bucks found

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Speaker 1: dead with the heads cut off after this fella killed

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Speaker 1: that big giant buck was the work of locals, not

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Speaker 1: some poacher's drawn to the area. About hearing about this

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Speaker 1: b G B and three. If you've got kids around,

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Speaker 1: plug their ears and three this Doug talking. When I

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Speaker 1: heard he killed it with a crossbow. I said, fuck yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, need do this. He's also he's also really

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Speaker 1: happy that a mostly casual hunter killed that deer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was too. I was happy about that. It was

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Speaker 1: kind of like the I don't want to say it

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Speaker 1: was the focus of the interview. Yeah, you give everybody

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Speaker 1: the story about bighorn sheep tags in New Mexico. This

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Speaker 1: is interesting This is a trend that I don't think

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Speaker 1: is going away. I'm not prepared for this, but I'll

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Speaker 1: give it a go. What the hell were you doing

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Speaker 1: when you got she sent you the stuff? You don't

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Speaker 1: starty the song and do all ancillary research and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do, I do what I can. I do what

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Speaker 1: I can. Yeah, I just picked you up all night

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Speaker 1: like reading, like prior finding. I see how it goes.

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Speaker 1: So that way, when Steve doesn't do what he just

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Speaker 1: suggested I do, he can just throw it. I've seen

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Speaker 1: this for the first time. Uh. It sounds like there's

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Speaker 1: some folks that want to locals in New Mexico want

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Speaker 1: to have more opportunities to hunt big horn sheep in

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Speaker 1: their own state, and one of the options they're throwing

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Speaker 1: around to figure that out is to um take away

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Speaker 1: all of the big horn sheep tags that are available

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Speaker 1: to non residents. There's only seven permits available for non

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Speaker 1: residents in New Mexico. Um. But that's an idea of

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Speaker 1: getting thrown around, and it's going to be heard by

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Speaker 1: I don't know some you know New Mexican game and

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Speaker 1: fish the commission and whatnot. Person wrote in well, I

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Speaker 1: was gonna hit this point. Okay, go ahead. Well I

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Speaker 1: was just gonna we're gonna tag team the story Steve.

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Speaker 1: Steve read up as I was giving you that. So

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Speaker 1: here's a perspective on it. Residents of New Mexico would

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Speaker 1: be like, it doesn't make sense that I have to

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Speaker 1: try to get a sheep tag my whole life and

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Speaker 1: never get one, and it's stayed owned wildlife, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just I'm here in state. And and then when they

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Speaker 1: give a ram take out it's some hoser from wherever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some holes are from Minnesota draws the sheep tag and

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Speaker 1: and this you know, yeah, Yanni's a nonresident big horn

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Speaker 1: hunter because he he used to live in Colorado, moved away,

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Speaker 1: drew a tag. And now here's an example of you know,

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Speaker 1: he should have liked by some people's perspective, Um, he

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Speaker 1: should have when he moved away. That should have been

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Speaker 1: the end of him trying to get a tag there

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Speaker 1: because he doesn't live there. This guy points this out,

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Speaker 1: This is a fallure rights in from Texas. Um never

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Speaker 1: hunted big horns as a Texas resident, he has We'll

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Speaker 1: just say he has zero chance because they give out

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Speaker 1: a tag. I think Texas does one like only do

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Speaker 1: one general draw tag a year in Texas. I think

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Speaker 1: it's something like that one or two. Yea. It's like

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Speaker 1: there's like uh tag in Texas. So it's never gonna

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Speaker 1: happen for me. Yet he's a supporter of the Wild

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Speaker 1: Chief Foundation because he dreams of someday hunting a ram.

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Speaker 1: This trend word to catch on and continue. Um, he

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Speaker 1: doesn't see in his view residents Uh, you know, aspiring

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Speaker 1: sheep hunters from outside of New Mexico are gonna have

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Speaker 1: zero incentive to give two ships about what's going on

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Speaker 1: with sheep or sheep in New Mexico if this were

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Speaker 1: to become a trend. The guy in Florida who is

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Speaker 1: a big wild Sheep supporter, but the Western states all say, like,

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Speaker 1: no non residents, what is that? What are the implications

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Speaker 1: for that? His relationship to sheep and sheep conservation? Good question. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the sheep thing is an amazing deal. Right. You go

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Speaker 1: to Wild Sheep Foundation, which raises an unbelievable amount of

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Speaker 1: cash at their annual banquet sheep show, and if you

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Speaker 1: really wanted to do the math, it is the tiniest majority,

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Speaker 1: your tiniest minority of people in that room have killed

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Speaker 1: the greatest majority of sheep, and the vast majority of

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Speaker 1: people there at this point will likely never draw a

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Speaker 1: sheep tag, but their cough up cash too. What was

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Speaker 1: that was that sort of like club they have the

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Speaker 1: less than one is the So there's multiple clubs in there,

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Speaker 1: but there's the less than one club, which is if

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Speaker 1: you have never drawn a sheep tag or I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: you've never successfully harvested a sheep, then you can pay

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Speaker 1: some cash to uh ideally up your odds for a

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Speaker 1: series of drawings that you must be present to win,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty cool. I drew a sheep tag. Remember

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Speaker 1: it was in the wrong continent. No, No. The outfitter

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Speaker 1: was like, oh god, you're not seventy and they kind

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Speaker 1: of like refused to call me back. And I got

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Speaker 1: ahold of sheep wild Sheep, and I was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you guys paid a lot of money for this hunt.

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Speaker 1: This isn't working out and it just kind of died

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Speaker 1: from there. Yeah, and they're like, well, you know you

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Speaker 1: could sell that uh hunt. I said, So this outfitter

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Speaker 1: that I'm having all sorts of good luck with, you

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Speaker 1: want me to sell the to somebody else. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go on it. Why would I

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Speaker 1: sell it to somebody. I think you're right, though, Steve,

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Speaker 1: that states are going to continue to clamp down on

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Speaker 1: the number of like once in a lifetime tags available

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Speaker 1: to non residents. I'm pretty sure Wyoming's working something. I

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Speaker 1: know Wyoming is working on half of its residence. When

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Speaker 1: we were talking about the like recent issues around you know,

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Speaker 1: the conversation around lead non lead, and I all I said,

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Speaker 1: I said one day on this same digital radio program,

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Speaker 1: I said that conversation ain't going away, and that got

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Speaker 1: people mad to observe that a conversation ain't going away.

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Speaker 1: This conversation is not going away. But one thing that's

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Speaker 1: confus using to me is from the Wild Sheeps the

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Speaker 1: Wild Cheep Foundation's website, even though they seemed well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what their position is, but at the at

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Speaker 1: the end of their notes as bottom line, this discussion

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Speaker 1: over New Mexico big horn sheep would be dramatically different

425
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: if it were not for the decades of support brought

426
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: by nonresident hunters that have significantly contributed to successfully growing

427
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: the state's sheep population. The discussion would be why don't

428
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: we have more sheep? Real conservation work is growing the

429
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: pie for everyone, not fighting over the slice. The point

430
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: this is a proposal to this is not so then

431
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: I so that kind of seems to be in the

432
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: spirit of what the listener is. For sure, you have

433
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: this argument of like, well they're paying more money, you

434
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: guys should like that. And then you get into this

435
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 1: whole other world of auction tags and governors tags, and

436
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: he's like, well, these people are paying the most money, right,

437
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: so should we give them more to it? Sure? And

438
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: then you got res in so they're like, what the hell? Yeah,

439
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like when it used to be

440
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: able to what did prior in the nineties here in Montana,

441
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: what were your special draw applications? What was the cost

442
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: prior to the big bump up to two? It was

443
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,239
Speaker 1: something I know that not for non residents it was

444
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: six hundred bucks a pop. And I think for residents

445
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: it was like twenty bucks a pop or fort sub

446
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: twenty not more something like that. Oh no, no no, I'm wrong,

447
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. I think it was seventy five bucks. I

448
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: don't know anyway, when that jump, how about not a shipload?

449
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: Not a shipload would be great to what most people

450
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: would consider a shipload when that jump occurred here. I

451
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many people. We're like, well, that

452
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: prices me out of the Game's weird because the ones

453
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: in a lifetime tag, like in Colorado, residents kicking like

454
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: two for once in a lifetime tags, and it's ten

455
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: times that for a nonresident. But it's still like Montana

456
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: is cheap for ye sheep. It is, but it's it's

457
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: you know, we we talked about it all the time.

458
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: It's like that, what are you getting for that cost

459
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: at the pump? It's like, well, I do burn a

460
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: lot of gas, but I go here and I do

461
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: all this stuff and it makes me super happy. But

462
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people are like, I'm not driving. Here's

463
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: a little tidbit some people might appreciate different states that

464
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: do like nonresident tag draws. They run different programs where

465
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: in some states you have to pre pay. I don't

466
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: know what it is now, but it used to be

467
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: in Montana you had to prepay for any tag that

468
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: you applied for. So if you applied for Moose, sheep

469
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 1: and goat as a nonresident, you had to send a

470
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: cash year's check. I think it was eight hundred bucks

471
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: a piece because you had to send a cashiers check

472
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: I think for dollars if you're gonna do all three.

473
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: Oh and then because the problem they would run into

474
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: is people would apply for stuff they had no way

475
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: of paying for, and then you do the draw, and

476
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: then you got all these these people that then they

477
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: can wait all these months for they buy the tag.

478
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: They never come up with the money, so then they're like, Okay,

479
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: you gotta pay up front. Some states do it where

480
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 1: you submit a credit card number and they're like, you

481
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: need to make sure that credit card is active and

482
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: that your credit card company is aware that there could

483
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: be a ding, because if that credit card is rejected,

484
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: we go to the next name. And so they do

485
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: their draw, It spits out names, they run the credit card.

486
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: If that credit card has any problem, it's onto the

487
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: next name. And I've heard from people over the years

488
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: who like, for whatever reason, head over, didn't pay overdrawn

489
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: and miss their chance because their credit card got no

490
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: second chance. It's like when that thing goes, it goes.

491
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: And the remember when Chris Denim used to do from

492
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: Western Hunter, when he used to do tag draw stuff,

493
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: he said, I keep a credit card only for this purpose.

494
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: And I know that there's no problem with that credit card.

495
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: There's nothing on it. Does he make like ten dollar

496
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: charges like you know soda pop at the cast and

497
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: on time? Uh? And I heard someone won't say that. Um,

498
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: the reason States made you prepay is they're making all

499
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: this money on interest, and so they like to have

500
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: this two months where they're holding hundreds or millions of dollars.

501
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: Someone said, man, when you and someone said the interest

502
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: if you, if you think about the time, the interest

503
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't pay for the return postage to send that person's

504
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: check back, not counting like the banking fees and all

505
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: that for how long they're actually holding this pile of money. Yeah,

506
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: that's why they all went digital now, is because they

507
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: were losing money with the amount for what it costs

508
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: to deal with the processing of the checks and then

509
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: and then mailing back refunds, et cetera very costly. Watch

510
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: this transition. You're ready, I'm ready. The guy tam Van

511
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: Tron is a licensed commercial fishermen in the region of

512
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: San Francisco, California. He goes out into a protected marine

513
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: preserve at the Fairy Lan Islands, sets traps in the

514
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: marine preserve. The Fairy Island Marine Preserve where he's not

515
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: you dassn't set your traps there, says traps catches nearly

516
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: three hundred dungees, Dungeoness craps, two sixty Dungeoness crabs in

517
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: those traps. Dungeoness crab. Right now, it's going for a

518
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: dead middle price. So we're we're assuming, like you know,

519
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: it's a varied price. We're saying about it's about pound okay,

520
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: the middle of the road Dungeoness crab. Wait, it's two pounds.

521
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: This all your math? Grin, No, this was a podcast listener.

522
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: But I think I think I bought Dungeoness crab for

523
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: like before. But I spent some time in San Jose

524
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: and um, you know what's funny. Oh no, we were

525
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: eating shrimp last night, but I gave away a bag

526
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: of Dungeoness crab last night. I realized I gave away

527
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: probably the dungeons last night. But um, uh no, I

528
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: know last night I gave away twenty four dollars for

529
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: the Dungeoness crab. So I remember buying it when it

530
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: would come in, and I remember buying it that you

531
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: could buy, uh, Dungeoness crab for seven dollars. Oh huh

532
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 1: in California. That's like live crab, probably coming right off

533
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: the boat. You know, I used to buy it because

534
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: I liked it. So this guy has seven thousand dollars

535
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: worth of illegally caught crab more or less more rounding

536
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: off figures the fine for doing such the fine million

537
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: bucks fair excessive. I think that the rub is that

538
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: he was in, not that he like overcapped in an

539
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: area he was supposed to be in. It's like intentionally

540
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: went to a marine preserve. Oh, he's claiming that he

541
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: didn't know the waters were closed. Come on, according to

542
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: the right. And then they and then they also said

543
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: don't touch your traps, don't retrieve anything, don't move them nothing,

544
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: leave them alone. And after he was told this by

545
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: the authorities, the authorities did find that some traps were

546
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: they were pulling traps and letting crabs going. They knew

547
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: where they all were, and while they're pulling them, they

548
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: realized that two dozen were missing. What are they were

549
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: doing that just to kind of gay estimate how many

550
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: crabs could have been caught? That wasn't really explained in

551
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: the arm. They probably wanted to seize them all. I

552
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: would imagine, can we get that broken. The traps, well, yeah,

553
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: they were leaving them like pulling traps, throwing the crabs

554
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: back and then leaving them in the water, even in

555
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: the water the traps. Let's say, get by the cops

556
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: for a d y right then go okay, this is

557
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: the thing you're yeah, okay, now go park your vehicle

558
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: and we'll take you to jail. That's what's happening here

559
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: right there. Like you stay away from all this stuff

560
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: because you you can no longer fish. That's the situation

561
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: that you're in. And then they got to go go

562
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: deal with it. I don't think there's much like a

563
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: like they come out, here's all his traps. They say,

564
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 1: you're in restricted waters. Don't mess at the traps. We're

565
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: gonna pull up traps. Many crabs you caught, and then

566
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: they're not putting the traps back down. The area is

567
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: closed because of whale migrations, is not closed as like

568
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: a crabbing protection area anyways. In California, UM, the Dungeoness

569
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: crab industry UH drove thirty million dollars in revenue. One

570
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: million dollar fine can break that down per crab a

571
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: million dollars. The one million divided by two sixty, that's

572
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: going to be more. I don't know, caviar, Hey, have

573
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: anything we talked about? Strike your fancy? Can you see

574
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: any big features about anything we've talked about? Six bucks? Yeah? Crap.

575
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna titillate folks with something. Uh. They in

576
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: big game poaching a lot of states. I think this

577
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: is more and more common all the time, in big

578
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: game poaching a lot of states. Uh, they do a

579
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: thing where they have to value the wildlife. Are you

580
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: famor with this? And then if you, like, for instance,

581
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: if you killed like a dull white tail, they're gonna

582
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: sign a value to that dull white tail, and it's

583
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: gonna be like a modest value. If you were to

584
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: kill like the huffbuck, like the biggest typical white tail

585
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: ever killed right in Indiana, and you poach that, they're

586
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: gonna assign a very different value to that dear and

587
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: they're gonna look at like what it's market value would be,

588
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: Like what would some two they have a formula, have

589
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: a math formula for it. What would some two inch

590
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: white tail costs someone to go shoot it? In a

591
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: high fence operation? And like your dear that white tailed

592
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: dough was worth a hunter box to hunter box, dear

593
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: you shots worth, we're gonna say that's worth. But this

594
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: is this is this is crab crab. I mean, I've

595
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: got a transition, but then I also wanted to ask

596
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: John something before we transition, but he's not interested in that.

597
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: He just told me he doesn't if we transition to

598
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: his monk Seal story. They're all kinds of numbers listed

599
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 1: for like rewards given to people who have uh information

600
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 1: on as you know, killed animal. You have a whole list,

601
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: but I think yeah, but I think too, you're dealing

602
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: with two separate things, right, because you're dealing with the

603
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: value of the wildlife. But also it's penalizing, right, it's

604
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: a deterrent right to say this guy went out there,

605
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: he's going to spend a million dollars now for his mistake.

606
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: That's a deterrent. That's not because they can claim he

607
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: did a million dollars worth of damage. So and the rewards,

608
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: to my knowledge, are often put up not by the

609
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: government but by like humane society. These are like for killings,

610
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 1: you know, like um not as assassinations to call them assassinations.

611
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: We're not talking about hunting violations. We're talking about you know,

612
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: someone you know, wrenching the head off a pelican because frustrated.

613
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: Are sure over in Idaho like that. There's a group

614
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: that pays bounties you know to uh two trappers and

615
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 1: two wolf hunters, private order that kicks in money. Yeah.

616
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: I think that's pretty but you gotta be a member.

617
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: Just sign up ahead of time. It's like joining the

618
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: Turkey Derby, I think. So. Yeah. I do like to

619
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: see a fine, though, that seems like more than less

620
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: because I always feel like when I hear about wildlife,

621
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: uh finds given out for you know, wildlife crimes or

622
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: public land sort of infractions or whatever. Really well, if

623
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: that's all cause, let's all go and do it, and

624
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: when we get caught, we'll just pay the fine and

625
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 1: keep on doing it, you know. I sometimes I feel

626
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: that when you're reading about a poaching thing and then

627
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: you you know, it's like this elaborate, premeditated deal, and

628
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, and and uh, it winds up being like

629
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: like even more like people are selling stuff, you know,

630
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: and it winds up being not well. This was also

631
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: a commercial fishing violation, which I'm sure factored into that

632
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: fine too. It's not like some recreational fisherman went out

633
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: and was over the limit. Be a higher standard of regulation.

634
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: If people want to talk about monks, he was last summer,

635
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: Well we're gonna talk about them big time. Well I'm

636
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: gonna start it right now. Then last summer, you gotta woman,

637
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: you gotta set the whole thing up. Man, Can I

638
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 1: give you this little anecdote just like this is right

639
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: last last summer? So then it sounds like a natural transition.

640
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: Last summer, you had a woman I think from Louisiana

641
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: who was on in Hawaii and was you know, there's

642
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: a monk seal hauled out on the beach and she

643
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: filmed herself going and touching the monk sealift fine for that.

644
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: You know, the video went viral, and I think that's

645
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: all de terrence. She did not she did not cause

646
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: fifty dollars. She ever actually pay it that, I do

647
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: not know. You never hear these things after the fact, right,

648
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: But but that was the fine they level on the

649
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: last did her lawyer get away down and you don't

650
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: know what happened. What happened? It was levied against her.

651
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a Dangerous Species Act violation, right, that's

652
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: harassment quote unquote is defined by the law. Yeah, so,

653
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: and that's why they have they have seal exclusion zones

654
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: where they have volunteers and back me up, Steve, backed

655
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: me up because this is fast nating. But I want

656
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: to get to this um in your new book, Serious

657
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: Face is a what's that one called about the monk seals?

658
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: I can't believe this is happening? Yeah, can you even

659
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: believe this is happening? And you even believe this is happening?

660
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: And it tells the story of the It's kind of

661
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: an endangered species story. It's like a like a C.

662
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: S I endangered species of um. Targeted intentional targeted killings

663
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: of an endangered species. That's right. I call them assassinate.

664
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: You called want to fight about that. I wanted to

665
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: fight about it because when when a hunter shot pedals

666
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: the bear, So there was a bear was just itching

667
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: to get right back to that. There there was a

668
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: bear in New Jersey that had had some deformity at bird.

669
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: People debate whether it had a deformity at birth or

670
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: it had been injured, but it would it's it's front

671
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: feet weren't very functional. It would spend a lot of

672
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: time walking around on its back feet. Some guy during

673
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: the Bear season, Um, I don't know if anyone. We

674
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: should try to get him on the show, but he's

675
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: tryably not talking. We have been identified, but he's he

676
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: talking to he's doing interviews. Know that the hunter has

677
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 1: never been identified. There was a lot of everyone thought

678
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: was one guy, and he started receiving death threats, but

679
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear it wasn't actually him. Well

680
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: here's the deal, Um, he would get a sympathetic audience.

681
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,959
Speaker 1: I'm sure he would. I don't have anything I would want.

682
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: I would I would look like the first question I

683
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: would be like, did you see it coming walking on

684
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: its back feet? And if so, did you wonder what

685
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: it was doing? Did you know there was a bear

686
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: hereabouts that walks on his back feet and has the

687
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: name Pedals? Or would he say I had no idea

688
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: to do what it was on It's all four ft

689
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: when I saw it, I had no idea about any

690
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: of this. It was just right. But when when Pedals

691
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: was killed, it was billed that he had been assassinated?

692
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: Was it now? Yes, dude? And I could we could

693
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: find the article. I did not say that one. And

694
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: when you wrote in a bit you were doing a

695
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: recap of like important deaths throughout the year, and you

696
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: did a thing about because you're interested in when wildlife

697
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: makes people nuts. You recap the pedals story. I don't

698
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: remember you using assassinated in it. But then and talking

699
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: about the killing of monk seals by Hawaiians, you said,

700
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: you say, I struggle to find the right word for

701
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: what it is, and you say it's like an assassination.

702
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: And I wanted to take I wanted to be like, oh,

703
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: come on, but I'm like no, because it is a

704
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: political yes, right, like assassination is like a it's a

705
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: political killing. It's a statement, the golden to achieve. It's

706
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: to achieve a goal. I would say. I mean, I

707
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: haven't looked up and it's a statement. It's meant to

708
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: be perceived in political terms. I think that guys are

709
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: really good because I just looked it up on Merriam

710
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: Webster and it says murdered by sudden or secret attack,

711
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: often for political core reasons. So in that way, in

712
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: the story you're going to tell um, I think, does

713
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: it say people? It doesn't even specify who's doing well, Um,

714
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: the it's it was comma the act or an instance

715
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 1: of an ass of assassinating someone such as a prominent

716
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: political leader. But that's why I'm an innovative writer. I mean,

717
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: that's the beauty of what I'm doing in that piece.

718
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: Is I'm applying that, you know, I'm I'm seeing it

719
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: for what it is is that we have built up

720
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 1: such a political controversy over this species the other species

721
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,959
Speaker 1: that we can only really understand it's killing in political terms.

722
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: And this is crazy, right, It's crazy to say that

723
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: I'm not That's what I'm acknowledging is it's crazy to

724
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: think that a marine mammal can be assassinated. But when

725
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: you see the facts, that's exactly what's been going on.

726
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: In a way, I decided where I want you to start.

727
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: There's a tinge of anthropomorphization there too. There's more than

728
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: a tingion. I'm just going to back up for hot second.

729
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: A lot of the headlines that I'm seeing just say

730
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: killed from like Washington Post, et cetera. Just says killed petals.

731
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: But I see it the Newsweek. God Newsweek is infamous

732
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: for their like beheaded elk headline real quick in Rocky

733
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 1: Mountain National Park was a huge bowl and it died.

734
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: They think it got killed by what do you killed by?

735
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 1: Mountain lined mountaine, and so some guy took its head

736
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: in the headline was that it was They don't say

737
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: like the famous decapitated, no beheaded, no famous behaded in

738
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: Rocky National Park And you're like, oh, that's weird. Like

739
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: someone walked out to the broad It's like, oh, no,

740
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: it died and then someone like took the head home.

741
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 1: Oh but the newswork headline says the the shameful slaughter

742
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: of petals the bear crant. If you want to make

743
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: a cash bet. Hmm. That word was used. It was

744
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: used in the Pope, not the post. It was used

745
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: in like one of those digital huff post. Just you

746
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: go ahead and follow that up up on that. Um,

747
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 1: here's what I want you to start, the Monk Seals.

748
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 1: I want you to start the Monk Seals story one

749
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: thousand five years ago. Sure, one thousand five. Look good,

750
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: this guy, look at good. This guys he's like, no problem.

751
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: It was a Wednesday. Um no, I mean that's when.

752
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: So that's when Polynesians reach Hawaii, right and everything ecologically

753
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: starts to change, and so you had monk seals, which

754
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: are because we all know what monk seals are there,

755
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: giant ass seals. Yeah, I wouldn't say we all know,

756
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: come on a little bit. I think they're about eight

757
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: hundred pounds. That's what blows my mind when we get

758
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: to the part about the kid that killed one of

759
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: the rock Yeah, hundred pounds. Yeah, but they're you know,

760
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: they're sort of defenseless, right, they're not meant so they

761
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time. We'll get back to years ago,

762
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: but well, years ago, they also spent a lot of time.

763
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: You know, they swim around, they're eating octopus, they're eating stuff,

764
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: turning over rocks, and then they come out on the

765
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 1: beach and they lay there for hours just digesting, hauled

766
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: out fully out of the water on the beach and

767
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: they'll spend hours and hours like that. And their native

768
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: to them, their native to the islands, and so no,

769
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: they are there. Yeah, you'll get to that. Yeah. But

770
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: so once the Polynesians come, it's pretty fast. It seems

771
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: that the monk seals disappear, at least from the main

772
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: Hawaiian islands. Right. They probably have retreated like up into

773
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: the Leeward Islands. You know, they like frigate shoals, all

774
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: the ones that we don't really talk about when we

775
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: talk about Hawaii, the little archipelago that's off to the

776
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: west toward Fiji, and that's where they stay. Right. So

777
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: then you fast forward, uh to you know what, I

778
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: think a thing that people do that annoys me a

779
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: little bit, and you just did it. What bring it, Steve?

780
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: Bring it? There is this thing. There's this thing people

781
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: say or they're like, you know, there used to be

782
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: a lot of elk in the Great Plains. Okay, there's

783
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: this idea that that they retreated from the Great Plains

784
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: and went into the mountains. What I think happened is

785
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: they were in the mountains, they were on the Great Plains,

786
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 1: and now they're gone from the Great Plants. That's absolutely true.

787
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: So I don't think that these monk seals moved there.

788
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: I think they were eliminated from parts of their range

789
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: and remained in other parts. So you're saying the word

790
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: retreat implies that there was a conscious group decision, like

791
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: a movement, rather than they were like killed off here

792
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: but not here. You're absolutely right. I mean, that's a

793
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: monk seals story. I mean, no, I think that's we

794
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: know that. And thank you for I don't want to

795
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: come in hot. You know, you're very particular about language.

796
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, so thank you. So they remained in

797
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: the Leeward Islands, which I didn't know we're a thing

798
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: till I didn't. I mean I knew, I knew they

799
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,760
Speaker 1: were there. I didn't know that we call them Hawaii.

800
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. And um, and then what started

801
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: happening was so basically then in nineteen seventy six, So

802
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: that's three years after you know, fast forward a thousand

803
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: years and change, and the three years after the Endangered

804
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: Species Act has passed UM in nineteen seventy six, the

805
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: federal government protects the monk seals. They are at that time,

806
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: I believe, the most endangered um marine mammal in terms

807
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: of their numbers. We absolutely, like I think in the

808
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: like the low hundreds, like maybe two. So I don't

809
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: know at that moment how many there were. And they

810
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: launched this project that even at this point I think

811
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: is still projected to take forty five years and close

812
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: to four hundred million dollars to recover the species. According

813
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: to the government's plan, and at first nothing's happening, and

814
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: then slowly, like starting in the you know, nineties, mid

815
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: nineties or so, the monk seals start to appear in

816
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: the main Hawaiian islands, mostly in Kauai because that's the

817
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,479
Speaker 1: you know, the westernmost island, and people who have grown

818
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: up in Hawaii, whose families have been there for generations

819
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: have never seen monk seals, start to see monk seals.

820
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: You know, they're out fishing or whatever. They see monk

821
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: seals taking their fish, scaring away their fish, and uh

822
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: eight eight hundred pound fish eater. Yes, yeah, yeah, but

823
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: the tiny, charubic little face with whiskers, very beautiful little

824
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: face as a button. Most biologists would describe the very

825
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: cute face really kind of disgusting, lovery body, you know,

826
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: just with that cute little button face attached to it. Yeah,

827
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: not only had they not only had native wines not

828
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 1: seen them, but the animals must have disappeared so quickly

829
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: upon colonization that they point out that they don't have

830
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: a word for them. But you could also you know,

831
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if you talk with this your but

832
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: but you could also argue that there was but in

833
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: the eight hundred years or whatever of non use, it

834
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: hasn't needed to be carried out. Yeah, and the and

835
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: the federal government. So, I mean a lot of what

836
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: I'm writing about in that in that piece is that

837
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: just the complete breakdown, like the bungling breakdown of communication

838
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: between the government and the people. Because you, right, you

839
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: have you have Native Hawaiian saying, what is this thing?

840
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: You know, we don't and it's getting in our way.

841
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: You're giving it all this money. Meanwhile, you're the same

842
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,919
Speaker 1: government that stole our land, right, and we don't get

843
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: anything from you, right, So there's a lot of resentment

844
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: towards this animal. And they say, and we don't even

845
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 1: have a word for it, which it's not in any chance,

846
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 1: it's not in there's no you know, carvings of it anything.

847
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: And the government does some research and they say, well,

848
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: we think it's this this word, which I think translates

849
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,919
Speaker 1: something like dog, right, And and that doesn't go over

850
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: too well, you know, I think that's the translation. Yeah,

851
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: And so so that goes on. You know, there's about

852
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 1: a decade of that of that kind of intractable conflict.

853
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 1: By the time show up in Hawaii, tell about the

854
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: protect protect people. Yeah, so these are you know, like

855
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: a lot of endangered species. They have um gathered a

856
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: constituency around them, right fan club, Yeah, fan you know,

857
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: people people who want to do right by this vulnerable animal,

858
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, for whatever reason, because they love the animal,

859
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: because they see it as a symbol, you know, the

860
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: way to help in the larger mess of human society,

861
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: whatever you want to say. And the government has mobilized

862
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: these people, um to create seal protection zones or exclusion

863
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 1: zones so that when a seal hauls out on the beach,

864
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: you you know, a call goes out and you immediately

865
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:44,919
Speaker 1: get you know, half a dozen mostly white people, uh,

866
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: putting you know, yellow tape around them and steaks and

867
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: protecting the seal. So you can understand that that also

868
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: doesn't look so good to the people who do not

869
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: like the seals, do not want the seals around is

870
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 1: um all maybe like air is one of those around

871
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: this island? Right to have kept everybody? And the title,

872
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: the title of the piece, can you even believe this

873
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: is happening? Is actually comes from a native Hawaiian guy

874
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: who I spent you know a couple of hours with

875
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: where he was basically just you know, shouting his side

876
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: of the story at me increasingly, you know, frustrated by

877
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: the whole situation. And I say in the piece that

878
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: was kind of the look in his eyes the whole

879
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: time was like can you even believe this has happened?

880
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: You know, just like complete disbelief that this government would

881
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: do this. So, you know, I'm simplifying a little bit.

882
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 1: I don't mean to generalize that like all Native Hawaiians

883
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 1: don't like whatever, but to point out that this is

884
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: a very long piece of investigative reporting collected in the

885
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: book serious face, and we are doing a abbreviated yes,

886
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 1: now it's not as bad as coming on NPR and

887
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: have to do it in four minutes. No, I appreciate that.

888
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: Does you can't even remember saying and make it like

889
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: the main thing you said, that's right. Um. So, anyway,

890
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: so that the situation when I go to Kauai in

891
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve early two thousand and exacerbated by the

892
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: fact that the previous year in in about the six

893
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: months prior, there have been for assassinations of steals um

894
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 1: a string of assassinations that started with one on Molokai,

895
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: which is a you know, the least populated of the

896
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: of the islands, and then also on kauai Qui favor too.

897
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: There's a piece, there's a part of your story that

898
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: you probably don't think is that important. But the what

899
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 1: were the birds that were showing up with the broken wings?

900
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: Newles sheerwaters. So this is another people were just like

901
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: it seems like fishermen when these birds are coming down

902
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: the Oh sorry, those are pelicans. Yeah, so they were,

903
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: so in the piece, I kind of do a roundup

904
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: of assassinations. Well I would, I'd say those are all assassinations.

905
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: I'd be careful about qualifying them all. Some of those

906
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,720
Speaker 1: I think are just you know, people losing their ship

907
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: momentarily and hurting an animal, you know, but because there

908
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily the political you know, discourse around those animals.

909
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean kind of the the point of

910
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: the piece in my mind, what was interested in me is,

911
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: you know, we talk a lot about conservation. We talk

912
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: a lot about bringing species back to levels approaching what

913
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: they maybe once were. But we because conservation doesn't have

914
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, it's mostly failures. You know,

915
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: when you look at the whole of the endangered Species Act.

916
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't say failure because it's not done,

917
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: but it's not like you know, it's very hard work.

918
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: And so there's only a handful of cases where we

919
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 1: really have these animals introduced back to levels where now

920
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: they're starting to be in people's way again. I think

921
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 1: it's sub two that go on the Endangered Species Act

922
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 1: come off due to recovery. I think you're more likely

923
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: to come off because they realize that they find another

924
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: population they didn't know about, or you come off because

925
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: you're extinct, right or another little interesting wrinkle is that

926
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: is you're more likely to go extinct I believe before

927
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: you even get on the list because you're you're held

928
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: in this kind of like holding area called the warranted

929
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: but precluded where then yeah, where the government says like, yeah,

930
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,399
Speaker 1: you're at you know this, this species deserves protection, but

931
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: we just we just can't. Right now. We're gonna put

932
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 1: you on this category called warranted but precluded and a

933
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: species of God, we can't because we can't afford it.

934
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: We can't, you know, I don't know whatever, you know,

935
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: just saying like we we recognize this is worthy and

936
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: we're going to get to it. But we just have

937
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: to hold off on giving you the protection that it

938
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: deserves right now. Um. But anyway, but yeah, So the

939
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: upshot for me of this whole story they think I'll

940
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: be interested in is what happens. You know, the monk

941
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,439
Speaker 1: seal is not a success story, but it's the fact

942
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: that they're now appearing in places that they haven't appeared

943
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: has been enough to raise this problem of you know,

944
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: some of these animals disappeared because we didn't want them.

945
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: They're right, people. People gotten mad at intentional. It was intentional,

946
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: and now they're coming back, and so we've never really

947
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's an environmental lawyer in the

948
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 1: piece who says, you know, we put all this energy

949
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: into saving wildlife and wildness, but we never really talked

950
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: about how much wildness we want and how much we're

951
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: willing to live with. And that's what was happening with

952
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: the monk seals. So you had this clash right between

953
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: the government and the people who wanted them to rebound,

954
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: and then the people who were who's lived experience was

955
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: being upset by their rebounding. I still want to hit

956
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: the thing. I'll just do it myself, Okay, it's just

957
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: a kind of horrific details. The birds. Yeah, there was

958
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: a bird were like they would mess with fishermen. Yeah,

959
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: they'd laying on the boats pelicans and it seems as

960
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: though they were just reaching up and snapping their wingbones. Yeah,

961
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: so you're finding dead pelicans with two broken wings, like

962
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 1: someone just going snap. Yeah, which is like worse than

963
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 1: just cutting its head off. Yeah, do you know what

964
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like so like to do that, to

965
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 1: snap its wingbones and then be like so long, buddy. Yeah,

966
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,320
Speaker 1: it's just casualness of it. It's just it's like disgust.

967
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: It's just it's just keep a little sharp machete on.

968
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: But like, I don't know. Yeah, there's all kinds of examples,

969
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: like people that are like fishing for a living treating

970
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: other stuff really badly. Like I mean, in Southeast Alaska

971
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: they hate those sea otters, right, sea lions too. Yeah,

972
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: and now, and uh isn't in Washington like they're allowing

973
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: the killing of a certain number of sea lions to

974
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: protect salmon they've been doing in the Columbia for a while. Yeah.

975
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: Go on, Well, so yeah, so I show up and

976
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: I think I'm in the right You know cs I

977
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: monk seal. Right, they've got four assassinations, they've got investigators

978
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: looking at the evidence, quote unquote, and they've got rewards

979
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollar reward for each seal. Information about each

980
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 1: seal killing, describe how they're killed or what they know

981
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: about the killings. Well, when I arrived, all I knew

982
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: was one had been shot and I believe three for

983
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: what they were calling blunt head trauma. And one had

984
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: a spear fishing spear starter that happened while I was there,

985
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: but survived and but survived. Yeah, and um, that's a

986
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: hail Mary. Yeah, you can imagine that person cut the line, yeah,

987
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: rather than reeling it in. I think that's right. Um,

988
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:39,919
Speaker 1: that one was a juvenile though, so it was even

989
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: more adorable, you know when they put it on the

990
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: evening news. Um. But yeah, So I show up and

991
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,439
Speaker 1: the first thing I realized is this is not there's

992
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: no police work when it comes to dead seals. You know,

993
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: like they've got Noah has its investigators and they're they're

994
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: trying their best. But what do you do? You know,

995
00:58:58,240 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: as one of the cops says, is like, you can't

996
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 1: talk to the seals friends, right, And you don't even know,

997
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: you know, if it washes up somewhere, has it been

998
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: killed in that spot? Was it killed somewhere else? Did

999
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: the did the head trauma happen just from bouncing around

1000
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: on rocks after it's been you know, killed in some

1001
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: other way or died in natural causes. So immediately realized like,

1002
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: this is a mess. You know, this is not a

1003
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 1: police procedural for me to for me to follow, and

1004
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: I start reporting on the clash itself, right and yeah,

1005
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: but you gotta get like how hard could the police

1006
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: work of Ben? Because you ended up talking to the

1007
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: guy that did it? Well, I saw, I saw the crime.

1008
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: I solve the crime. So that's what's so funny. But

1009
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: like you're not there that long and here you are

1010
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: having coffee with the guy who's got a reward on

1011
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: his head. Yeah, did you collect the money? I did

1012
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: not collect the movie? And it was funny because after

1013
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: the peace published, I got a call from the same

1014
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: Noah cops, you know, the investor who is it? Yeah?

1015
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: There and no, I mean he knew. His whole tone

1016
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: of voice was listen, I got a this call. You.

1017
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: I know you're not gonna tell me anything, but any

1018
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: chance you're gonna tell me, because I'm sorry I can't

1019
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: tell you. But but yeah, basically I had met a

1020
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: guy named Walter Riddy who I've hung out with him

1021
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: you have. Yeah, he's a phenomenal guy, and um I

1022
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 1: met him sort of by chance when I was you know,

1023
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: when I first arrived in Hawaii on that trip, and

1024
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 1: he had told me that he knew the person. He

1025
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: called him the kid who had killed the first monk seal,

1026
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,439
Speaker 1: the one that had set off this you know, quote

1027
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: unquote set off the string of killings, and that he

1028
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 1: was you know, very remorseful about it, YadA YadA, And

1029
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: I kind of kept after him and eventually I was

1030
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: invited to meet this guy and by that this Walt

1031
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: like I I met him, I should say, But anyway,

1032
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: he's a like not spiritual leader, but I mean he's

1033
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: a he's an active he's an organizer. I'd says. He's

1034
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: done a lot of activism against um, you know, military

1035
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: testing in in Malachai, against development, and he he was

1036
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: counseling to kill He's very revered in the community, so

1037
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 1: that when he found out that he was he was

1038
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: not one of the people who was anti monk seal.

1039
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: You know, he understood that the monk seals were supposed

1040
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: to be there, that there should be this kind of

1041
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: coexistence and an actual affinity between native Hawaiians and a

1042
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: native Hawaiian species. And so when he found out who

1043
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: this this kid was, he just went knocked on his

1044
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: door and he said, I want to talk to you

1045
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 1: about the seal. And you know, for the kid, that

1046
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: was a big deal for Uncle Uncle Walter to show

1047
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,439
Speaker 1: up at his house. And you know, I had spent

1048
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: a week just talking to both sides of this debate,

1049
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: and everyone on both sides, you know, you just get

1050
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: the impression that anyone who kills the seal is going

1051
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: to be this kind of burly, angry native Hawaiian fisherman

1052
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: who you know, lost his ship at a seal and finally,

1053
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 1: you know, snapped and killed it. And um and that

1054
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: was Uncle Walter's assumption too. And when I met the kid,

1055
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 1: what I found out was that essentially it was was

1056
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: an accident. Um. I mean that's a generous way of

1057
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 1: putting and not a fisherman, not a fisherman at all.

1058
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: That was the only time he had been fishing that

1059
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: hole that whole season. But he was with some friends

1060
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 1: and it was a pure pressure situation because they were

1061
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: looking for a spot to fish. Every every place they

1062
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: went there was a monk seal there, and they've been

1063
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: hiking and hiking and hiking. Finally they got to this

1064
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: one spot and there was a big male seal there

1065
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: and he was kind of goaded by his friends to

1066
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, he thought he'd scare it away by throwing

1067
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: a rock at it and a court His story, which was,

1068
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: you know, I ran past the Noah investigators they said

1069
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: it sounded incredible based on injuries, was that he hit

1070
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: this thing square in the head with a rock. It

1071
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: went unconscious and was dead. So that was he was

1072
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: broken up about it. This kid was broken up about it,

1073
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: and he was more broken up about it when the

1074
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: next seal was killed and the seal after that and

1075
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: the seal after that, because he felt, oh, I started

1076
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: this whole chain reaction. You know, I uncorked all this

1077
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: frustration that's been going on, and I sort of showed

1078
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: it a way to deal with it right away, to

1079
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: take it out on the seals um And it was

1080
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 1: not I mean, that was one of those moments. I mean,

1081
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: there's a lot of moments like this in the book,

1082
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: but that was one of those moments where I just

1083
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: could not believe. I mean not to me is like

1084
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: the privilege of doing this work is if you can

1085
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: spend enough time and attention on these stories and you

1086
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 1: just keep kind of scratching layer after layer of understanding

1087
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 1: away from it until you actually get to what happened,

1088
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: you find the most surprising things. And that's the This

1089
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: was the epitome of that for me, is that I

1090
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: could not have invented this situation. One of the one

1091
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 1: of the early things that happened to me as I

1092
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 1: was like training to be a writer that made me

1093
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: appreciate the work of good journalism was after the murder

1094
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: of Matthew Shepard and Laramie Wyoming that it was immediately

1095
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 1: it was that some cowboys found a gay kid and

1096
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: out of just pure unbridled hatred, dragged him out of

1097
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: a bar and killed him. And that story ran and

1098
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: ran and ran, and then a journalist from Harper's went

1099
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 1: in just hung out in the town and met everyone involved,

1100
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 1: and when she wrote her piece about it, it it was like,

1101
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: that is not at all what happened at all. No

1102
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: one had gotten it right, like the relationship between all

1103
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: the individuals involved, the lack of cowboy noess that it

1104
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: not being motivated by that, it being like financial entanglements. Yeah,

1105
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, like they got for people

1106
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: that will going to spend three weeks somewhere and be like,

1107
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: so what happened now that night? I mean, I don't

1108
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: know that story in particular, but that's the phenomenon that

1109
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: I've encountered again and again. It's weird because I think

1110
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: that we It's interesting cause I was having this conversation

1111
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 1: with someone the other day, and I think it's like

1112
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: we're wired to kind of just snap everything into like

1113
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 1: a tidy story so that we can make sense of it.

1114
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: You know. Otherwise we'd just be walking around this like

1115
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: incoherent cloud of facts all the time, having to use

1116
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: our brains all the time. Yeah. Yeah, you need things

1117
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: that you can just take for granted, right, And I

1118
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: think that's how we kind of walked through the world,

1119
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: just metabolizing everything that's happening, you know. The writer Joan Didion,

1120
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 1: of course, Yeah, in her in her book, I think

1121
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: it's in Slouching towards beth Lehem she talks about and

1122
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: this is pre Internet. When she wrote this, she's like

1123
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 1: there's so much information, right that, Like you get people

1124
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: where there's so much information they can't deal with it all,

1125
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 1: and they're thirsty for just something very simple, and all

1126
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: the better if they're the only one that knows it.

1127
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's nice, right when you can

1128
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 1: repackage it and and and tell it farther, right, Yeah,

1129
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's like that. Yeah, that's I

1130
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 1: think what the realization I was having talking to this

1131
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: other person was, like I guess that's sort of what

1132
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: I see myself as doing now. Is like it's like

1133
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 1: Jiu jitsung the storytelling instinct, you know, to unravel the

1134
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 1: stories you know that we that we lock onto and

1135
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: then kind of see all of the parts laid out

1136
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 1: and put them back together into something a little more real, right, Um,

1137
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 1: And it's it's when they click back into place, like

1138
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 1: with this kid on Malakai that that I just I

1139
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 1: mean it like it almost feels like a spiritual experience,

1140
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: like to see like, oh my god, like the world

1141
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 1: is very very complicated and it's so much more than

1142
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 1: we understand, And what else do I walk around not

1143
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: appreciating the complexity of That's the thing I appreciate and

1144
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 1: all the stuff you've written and then again in this story,

1145
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: is that, um Like, I know your wildlife advocate, a

1146
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: conservation advocate, right like you. You like to see intact,

1147
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: healthy habitat and like a clean planet and that means

1148
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: a lot to you. Um, But you're able to go

1149
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 1: into a thing like this and not be like, I'm

1150
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: gonna root these assholes out and it's horrible, but you

1151
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: give like a very fair and I'm not I'm not

1152
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: native Hawaiian, I don't know, but you give what seems

1153
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 1: to me like a very fair recounting of how we

1154
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 1: got here. Yeah, it isn't like isn't like the whole

1155
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 1: point is to like make people bleed. Yeah, And it's

1156
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: also not to make people have some kind of simplistic

1157
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 1: sense of hope. You know. I think both those things

1158
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: are pretty boring, right, And and I think that's why

1159
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: I never really read a lot of you know, quote

1160
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: unquote in nature writing about conservation before I started doing

1161
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 1: it myself. Is it? It seemed like it was very

1162
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: easy to just you get the sense of what's happening

1163
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: in these stories pretty quick. In a lot of tellings

1164
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: of them that were you know, thank God for the

1165
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 1: people who are protecting the seal or you know, against

1166
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: the nasty you know whoever it is, hunters, landowners, whatever,

1167
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: you know. Um, I just feel like that's really a

1168
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: case where you see stories snapping into those those outlines

1169
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: pretty quick. You know, where you wouldn't do well as

1170
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 1: a writer where writing animated children's movies. No, because you're

1171
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: the bad guy. Let me guess it's the evil logging

1172
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: or mining consortium. Yeah, yeah, I would not. I don't

1173
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 1: think with a sadistic tinge. Yeah. I also I just

1174
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: don't really do morals either. I think I think the

1175
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 1: morals of the story always escaped me. You know, John,

1176
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 1: what what happened after? Like how long ago did you

1177
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 1: did you do this? Well? So that was about ten

1178
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: years ago that I was there, and and the story

1179
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: since then it's kind of just been more of the same. Honestly.

1180
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 1: The the monk seal numbers are up, um modestly, but

1181
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 1: I think they still getting assassinated. There were four killings

1182
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: last year, I believe, and there were two this year

1183
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: on Molokai. And there was a study, yeah, and there

1184
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 1: was a study recently that as I read it this morning,

1185
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 1: after you phoned me to tell me i'd better have

1186
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: some contemporary monk seal facts, Steve. As I read this study,

1187
01:08:55,960 --> 01:09:01,440
Speaker 1: it was showing that what I would call assassination, um,

1188
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:06,200
Speaker 1: intentional killings are the leading cause of monk sealed deaths

1189
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 1: by well, you know, anthropogenic monks that more than more

1190
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 1: than tanglings, more than exactly um that there are now

1191
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:20,679
Speaker 1: more more seals have died because they've been intentionally killed

1192
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: rather than other human calls. Uh, tell quick about that

1193
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: island I had never heard of. And the brothers that

1194
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 1: own the island, Knee How. I that was an interesting

1195
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 1: It sounds a good fishing spot. Yeah. Yeah, you can

1196
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 1: put up with an old man yelling at you from

1197
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 1: the shore all the monk seals. Yeah, so Knee How,

1198
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 1: which I had never heard of. Um, is a it's

1199
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: an island. Um. I mean it's big, it's you know,

1200
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: they think it's about seventies square miles and it's right

1201
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 1: across from Kauai and uh. In eighteen sixty four, King

1202
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,839
Speaker 1: Kamaya May has sold the island to a ranching family,

1203
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 1: a white ranching family. I don't know. Yeah, it was

1204
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 1: cheap I'm sure and uh, and that descendence of that

1205
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 1: family still own it's it's now under the control of

1206
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 1: two brothers, Keith and Bruce Robinson. They're both getting up

1207
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 1: there in years and it's known as the Forbidden Island

1208
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: because the Robinson's do not like to have people on there.

1209
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: You can, they will. They've taken a limited number of

1210
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: tourists there. I guess you can hunt there hot tip um,

1211
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 1: but you know, it's very expensive to get there, and

1212
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 1: they control the helicopter company that takes you in and out,

1213
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 1: and it's very very difficult to access, very very difficult

1214
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 1: to know what's going on there. There are some Native

1215
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:55,519
Speaker 1: knee howandsh or Nee How people who live on the

1216
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 1: island and have lived there for generations. There's been like

1217
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 1: and they've been entangled with that family for years. I mean,

1218
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 1: as Keith Robinson put it to me, they are a

1219
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 1: feudal landlord. Those people are their tenants. Feudal landlord. Yes. Um,

1220
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 1: it's a very bizarre situation to exist in the Centurion.

1221
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 1: You point out that they use it for training down

1222
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 1: the pilots and evasion. Uh, they have in the past. Yeah,

1223
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: So there and in the Native Nie How when they

1224
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 1: run them down down in the training and they said

1225
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 1: that they they get them pretty easy. Yeah that's there.

1226
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,680
Speaker 1: That's their only extra mural sport. Um. So yeah, so

1227
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 1: they you know, the robin doesn't have just had to

1228
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: find ways like that to make money. They do a

1229
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 1: lot of military you know, they have a radar station there,

1230
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:42,920
Speaker 1: I believe, on on the mountain side. And I was

1231
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: able for some reason, uh you know, which wasn't clear,

1232
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 1: which only became clear to me later, I was able

1233
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,679
Speaker 1: to talk my way on to knee How flew over

1234
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 1: with Keith Robinson because knee How happens to be one

1235
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: of the best places for monks seals right now. The

1236
01:11:56,920 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: Robinson's out of a kind of like very right wing

1237
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: anti government, um, you know, wanting to stick it to

1238
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:05,720
Speaker 1: the government instead of killing the seals, they've saved the seals,

1239
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 1: so they're they're conservation proms. It's great. The rub being

1240
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: they won't let the government come look at them. No,

1241
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 1: not at all, not at all. And it's like, oh,

1242
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 1: you're interested in these seals? Are you plethora of endangered

1243
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 1: seals that we have here? You can't, you can't and

1244
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 1: you don't want you counting them. And the reason, according

1245
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 1: to Keith, is because they don't have to put up

1246
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: with any you know, fussy community meetings and hearings and

1247
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. They just tell the people living there,

1248
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 1: who are their tenants again, their feudal tenants and employees,

1249
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: we're going to protect the seals, so and then and

1250
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 1: then then they do it. Um and so, Yeah, the

1251
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 1: government has been you know really, I mean, I think

1252
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 1: they may have made a little more progress. But at

1253
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: the time I was there, they were they were definitely

1254
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:51,640
Speaker 1: just like really, I mean, they were like fascinated, what

1255
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 1: what did you see there? You know, like I was.

1256
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 1: But but when I got there, it also became apparent

1257
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:00,919
Speaker 1: that um, the Robinsons that were really upset that fisherman

1258
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:03,439
Speaker 1: from Kauai. We're coming too close to knee how and

1259
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 1: they I think as I interpreted it, and I'm you know,

1260
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 1: Keith Robinson was not very happy with me after this

1261
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 1: this story because he didn't I don't think he liked

1262
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 1: this interpretation. But he was trying to broke her some

1263
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: deal with the with Noah to set up a marine

1264
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 1: preserve around his island so that the fisherman could not

1265
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 1: come anymore and his quiver. Yeah, he was using the seal.

1266
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: So he when he took me there, he really wanted

1267
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:26,799
Speaker 1: to show me how there weren't actually that many seals

1268
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:28,880
Speaker 1: and they were suffering and it was all because of

1269
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 1: these intruding fishermen from kwaiet and to to you know,

1270
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 1: create this atmosphere where it's like now and even knee

1271
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: house seals are are in trouble. Yeah, that's what he

1272
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 1: John's explained. Like in this navigation of this the owner

1273
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,839
Speaker 1: is like where they all go, this is a disaster,

1274
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 1: but his drivers like seems like it's about and then

1275
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 1: he just he just stormed off, stormed off. You know.

1276
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:55,160
Speaker 1: It was like so yeah, it was a wild day.

1277
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:56,640
Speaker 1: It was a wild day. I mean, Keith is a

1278
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: very interesting character. And you know when I met him,

1279
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: he was wearing in a uh, you know, work clothes

1280
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 1: and a green hard hat and he handed me a

1281
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 1: self published book about the apocalypse, which had a painting

1282
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 1: of mushroom clouds and fires and then a little figure

1283
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 1: in the corner wearing the same work clothes in a

1284
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 1: green heart hat. And so that was like some reading

1285
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 1: material for the helicopter flight over See, I don't want

1286
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 1: this to be taking because I I would like nothing

1287
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 1: more than the foster friendship with this individual. Yeah, so

1288
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:26,519
Speaker 1: I don't want if he's listening, I don't want to

1289
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 1: take listen. I want to be friends. Okay, I want

1290
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 1: to hang out on the island. I want to hunt.

1291
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 1: I'll interview about the book. Anything mean John saying I

1292
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: wanna be really tight? Yeah? And I was very tight?

1293
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: Would I would say? I mean, he's in a very

1294
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,599
Speaker 1: untenable position, you know, So I don't think there's any

1295
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: right way to be Keith Robinson right now? You know

1296
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 1: it's John. When you sat down in the helicopter and

1297
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:53,720
Speaker 1: he thumbed open the first page of the book, did

1298
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: it say something along the lines of, so you're in

1299
01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: my helicopter, things you know about me? Yeah? No, I

1300
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 1: do remember that he was like nagging the pilot to

1301
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: fly in a perfectly straight line to save money on gas. Um.

1302
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 1: You know, he's very cash poor. He owns this island,

1303
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:13,600
Speaker 1: but he's he's really having some cash fallow problems. That

1304
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:16,640
Speaker 1: seemed so, but in all fairness, is like, do you

1305
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 1: feel that he's legitimately interested in the ecology of the island. Oh? Absolutely,

1306
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 1: He's like one of the most successful conservationists in America

1307
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: right now. I mean he's done, he's you know, bred

1308
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 1: a lot of endangered native plants. Oh and he I

1309
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 1: forgot he had that tree. Yeah, he had a He

1310
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:36,160
Speaker 1: had a one was it the last one of the

1311
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 1: of the native a particular native Hawaiian hardwood tree. This

1312
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 1: was in the nineties, that he kept from a seed,

1313
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: that he kept from a seed. And and as I

1314
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 1: understand this was this was something I could not definitively

1315
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of. But as I understand it,

1316
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 1: and this this is a little bit speculative, but it

1317
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,479
Speaker 1: seems like he had misread a Fish and Wildlife Service

1318
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 1: document about about his tree that made it seem to

1319
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:02,720
Speaker 1: him that they were going to come and claim his

1320
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:08,879
Speaker 1: tree by imminent domain. And he just implied very strongly

1321
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: to me that he then killed the tree rather than

1322
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:14,919
Speaker 1: let the government take it because it was against his principles,

1323
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 1: and that he told them that if they were going

1324
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:18,920
Speaker 1: to come take his tree, there'd be like another Ruby

1325
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 1: Ridge on Nihow. Because the headline to the thing or

1326
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:25,560
Speaker 1: somewhere in it said something about like the containment and

1327
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: I believe it was like support and protect. And then

1328
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:31,160
Speaker 1: in the bottom it was like, we really need to

1329
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 1: work with this guy, yeah, to keep his tree happy. Yeah.

1330
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 1: And he would not be very specific about the story,

1331
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:39,559
Speaker 1: although he wanted to tell me that story many times.

1332
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 1: He told you three days later the tree was dead. Yeah, yeah,

1333
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: so that was his That's why I said, strongly implied,

1334
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,559
Speaker 1: strongly implied that he killed that tree rather than let

1335
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 1: the government take it. I'd love to get this guy

1336
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 1: on the show. Don't tell him, you know me that

1337
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:58,680
Speaker 1: helicopter pilot better find out a straight asked way to

1338
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,519
Speaker 1: fly over here. It out as you say, tell them,

1339
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 1: we'll find a very efficient means of travel. Okay, you're

1340
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 1: ready to move on to the macaques. Hold on, you

1341
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:15,040
Speaker 1: gotta cover just because it is the cutest thing. Monks

1342
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 1: seals with eels coming out of their noses. It's so sad,

1343
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 1: like big slimy boger. You didn't see this happen. This

1344
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:31,160
Speaker 1: is a frequent thing. And that's what job of the

1345
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:39,680
Speaker 1: hut was created off of man eating the seals and

1346
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:43,320
Speaker 1: then like a spaghetti noodle when your kid tells one

1347
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 1: of those funny jokes, the seals eat the seals eating

1348
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 1: the eel. Yeah, and then like a lugie. You know

1349
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 1: they hack up the seal or the eel through their

1350
01:17:55,960 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 1: little seals. Yeah, it is. That's that's your first kid's book, John,

1351
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 1: Which ones are the bad guys exactly? And then at

1352
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 1: the end you can be like you tell me they

1353
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:21,080
Speaker 1: Pixar is not gonna pick that one up anyways. Is

1354
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 1: it a live when it comes out? No, he's got

1355
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: a dead heel hanging out his nose. Yeah. People, these

1356
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: these folks that protect the seals get very concerned over

1357
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 1: the well being of the seal and uh, I think

1358
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:40,719
Speaker 1: maybe one of one has died from some blockage and stuff.

1359
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, it's been a few years since I

1360
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,600
Speaker 1: research that one. Yeah, there's a lot of there's a

1361
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:49,640
Speaker 1: lot of I mean it's not just killing, you know,

1362
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 1: like we're talking before, they've they've got a toxic plasmosis

1363
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: threat from feral cat species that they think are affecting

1364
01:18:56,439 --> 01:18:59,519
Speaker 1: the seals. Now we've covered that very heavily on the

1365
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:03,760
Speaker 1: show Eels. Yeah, how does that because all he's got

1366
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:05,640
Speaker 1: to do is get out there and that when he's

1367
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 1: because cats like ship in the sand and are out

1368
01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:11,880
Speaker 1: in the sand. But I think it's a great point

1369
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 1: to bring up right, it's like we always protect animals

1370
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,519
Speaker 1: on our terms. Then they're living this entire other life,

1371
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,120
Speaker 1: in this case in the ocean, which is a giant

1372
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:26,560
Speaker 1: place that is full of dangers that they have to

1373
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 1: conquer on their own, and it's you know, then they

1374
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 1: show up and they got a eel dangling out of

1375
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 1: their nose and people are like, well, that's not part

1376
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:35,560
Speaker 1: of the plan. He's like, listen, but you know what

1377
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 1: my main problem is this eel hang out. If you

1378
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:44,880
Speaker 1: want to help me, let me tell you yanked a

1379
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,599
Speaker 1: some bitch out of my nose kills me. You ready

1380
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,799
Speaker 1: for mccaques? Which what was I calling this morning? Macause?

1381
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:53,760
Speaker 1: And I had you all confused? Yeah, I thought you

1382
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 1: were talking about that little monkeys called him maccaque. Now

1383
01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 1: I thought it was a macaw. And it's also apparently

1384
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:09,759
Speaker 1: a tribe. Yeah, is it mccoq or maccaque maccaque friends

1385
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:15,600
Speaker 1: of s Chaster. Yeah, yeah, it sounds right, it sounds wrong, right,

1386
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:18,480
Speaker 1: It sounds like mccoq would be a little more civilized.

1387
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 1: But you know it's m a who's looking at it?

1388
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 1: A yeah? Alright, already want to start. You don't need

1389
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 1: to go back hundred years, hundred years ago. They were

1390
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 1: not they were non Florida. I mean we can go

1391
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: back a hundred years. That's yeah, okay, go ahead, picture

1392
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:52,000
Speaker 1: it Ferris Wheel, well a lot more fish it was.

1393
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:55,800
Speaker 1: It was a land of amusements, the land of the

1394
01:20:55,880 --> 01:20:59,120
Speaker 1: vacation land already, and a New Yorker named Colonel Twoey,

1395
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:02,439
Speaker 1: Colonel being his first name, not a rank, started a

1396
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:08,680
Speaker 1: tourist name it is. It's pretty badass, colonel dog want

1397
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 1: to name him? Why not name your kid general? He's

1398
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 1: got to earn admiral. He starts at colonel. See how

1399
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: he does? How does he get how does he get advancement?

1400
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 1: Maybe he started his private video. It was spelled CEO

1401
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:25,680
Speaker 1: L not k R K E R. Yeah, like like

1402
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:30,800
Speaker 1: uh popcorn colonel, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, not like the

1403
01:21:30,840 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 1: popcorn colonel, like the military colonel. So Mr Colonel Tooey

1404
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: had some kind of tourist attraction going in the middle

1405
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,559
Speaker 1: of Florida in a town called Akala on a silver river,

1406
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 1: and he decided he wanted to up his game a notch.

1407
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 1: And he brought over six macaques from somewhere I don't

1408
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 1: know where, and decided he was going to put them

1409
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 1: on a little island in the river and you'd get

1410
01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: to be able to see monkeys. When he came to

1411
01:21:55,160 --> 01:21:57,760
Speaker 1: visit his place, he did not realize that mccas are

1412
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 1: tremendous swimmers. This is my favorite detail story. Within minutes,

1413
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 1: certainly by some accounts, they were off the island. Um,

1414
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 1: so that was that was in the thirties. You'd like

1415
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:16,400
Speaker 1: to imagine I'm kind of standing there, you know, feeling

1416
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:18,840
Speaker 1: very proud, just gazing out at his little monkey island,

1417
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 1: and then sort of dawning on him. Um, tell some kids, Okay,

1418
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:26,360
Speaker 1: now go feed the monkeys, and they're like, which ones? Yeah, yeah, Well,

1419
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:28,200
Speaker 1: I just imagine he's still standing there. Just they're just

1420
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:32,400
Speaker 1: slashing toward him. It's like normandy, you know. Um. But yeah,

1421
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 1: and then but so then you've got wild monkeys in Florida,

1422
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 1: and by the eighties there were about four hundred of

1423
01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:43,639
Speaker 1: them each separate troops. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna preface

1424
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:47,280
Speaker 1: all this by saying this, the census, the monkey censuses

1425
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:52,759
Speaker 1: in Florida are very fuzzy. Several recounts. We never write

1426
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 1: a lot of hanging chads. We never really have very

1427
01:22:56,360 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 1: good information. It seems about how many monkeys there are

1428
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 1: in Florida any given time. But you know, there's wild

1429
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:04,760
Speaker 1: monkeys living in Florida, something I did not know, so

1430
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:09,880
Speaker 1: pause that story. In two thousand twelve, the summer of

1431
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:14,519
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, I went to Tampa to um look

1432
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:17,920
Speaker 1: for the mystery Monkey of Tampa Bay, which was a

1433
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: maccaque that had first appeared behind the Bennigan's um in

1434
01:23:23,560 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, I believe a hundred miles away from

1435
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:29,680
Speaker 1: the very far away. Yeah, yeah, this is way out,

1436
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, Tampa. It's like way out on the coast. Um.

1437
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:34,960
Speaker 1: So it's crossed the whole interior of the state. And

1438
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:38,439
Speaker 1: the theory was when they called out um a gentleman

1439
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 1: named Vernon Yates, who's a renowned freelance animal trapper in Florida,

1440
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:46,719
Speaker 1: to come corral this monkey behind the Bennigan's, he was floored.

1441
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 1: He could not believe that this thing was, as he

1442
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 1: put it, very streetwise because when a pet maccaque um,

1443
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:57,240
Speaker 1: of which there apparently are many licensed pet maccaques in Florida,

1444
01:23:57,280 --> 01:23:59,679
Speaker 1: when they escape, they tend to just fry themselves immediately

1445
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:01,680
Speaker 1: on a our line or get hit in traffic or something.

1446
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 1: But this thing, this thing could boogie, this thing could

1447
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 1: get through, it could read your mind. Yeah, it was.

1448
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 1: It had a kind of a ninja like a nimbleness

1449
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:14,599
Speaker 1: that was evading both Vernon and the Fishing Wildlife Commission

1450
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 1: officers who were sent out to travel. And he darted

1451
01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:19,960
Speaker 1: it like multiple time to get away before it fell.

1452
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,559
Speaker 1: He's like, look and pull out the dark the line

1453
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:30,599
Speaker 1: where he looks him in the eye and like pulls. Yeah,

1454
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 1: that that detail we work. We used to work a

1455
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:37,760
Speaker 1: lot with a guy named Mo and he was a

1456
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 1: cameraman and he described being in the jungle in South

1457
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 1: America and he's with some guys. This wasn't working with us,

1458
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:47,000
Speaker 1: working with someone else. He's with some guys that were

1459
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:49,960
Speaker 1: blowgun hunters. They were in Columbia and they're blowgun hunters.

1460
01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 1: And he's said one of these guys was his monkey

1461
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 1: up in a tree. He said, it's kind of the

1462
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 1: most disturbing thing you've ever seen in his life. These

1463
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:59,920
Speaker 1: guys like with that blowgun and that dart hits the

1464
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 1: monkey in the back. He said, that monkey reaches around

1465
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:05,599
Speaker 1: behind his back pulls the dart out. Yeah, he said,

1466
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 1: just not what you expect like a game animal to

1467
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:11,080
Speaker 1: do right right, because they don't have a possible he said,

1468
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:14,639
Speaker 1: just seemed like at that moment, he's like everything was wrong.

1469
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:19,280
Speaker 1: My other favorite details. Apparently there was a moment because

1470
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 1: this was this Bennigan's pursuit was just the first of many, right,

1471
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:23,840
Speaker 1: So I think Vernon, by the time I saw Vernon

1472
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:25,519
Speaker 1: in two thousand talking, this has been going on for

1473
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 1: three and a half years, and he had said he

1474
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 1: had more than a hundred occasions he had gone out

1475
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: after this monkey. On one of them, there was a

1476
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:36,280
Speaker 1: fish and wildlife officer caught it in three years. He

1477
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:38,600
Speaker 1: hadn't caught in three and a half years. And he

1478
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 1: was you know. I went to his house and he

1479
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 1: he took a map of Florida out to show me

1480
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 1: kind of where the monkeys travels had taken him. And

1481
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 1: he just kept having to flip the map over, like

1482
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:49,880
Speaker 1: bring out a different map at a bigger scale. He

1483
01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 1: just kept getting more and more elaborate, you know. Um,

1484
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:54,320
Speaker 1: And he was sure it was the same monkey, like

1485
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:56,559
Speaker 1: he was marked somehow, he would They were, well, they

1486
01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:58,120
Speaker 1: were very sure it was the same monkey, just by

1487
01:25:58,160 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 1: its behavior, I think, And that's what I guess that

1488
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 1: an open question, but there it seemed to be consensus

1489
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:07,639
Speaker 1: of very long causeway, probably in the back of a truck. Yeah. Yeah,

1490
01:26:07,880 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 1: And it started. It was in different neighborhoods. It was

1491
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:13,559
Speaker 1: eating fruit off people's roofs um, it was getting around

1492
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:16,600
Speaker 1: and uh. And what happened again in a in a

1493
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:21,760
Speaker 1: similar and yet extremely different Yeah, he's abounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1494
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:24,240
Speaker 1: he's he's a little guy. He's pretty adorable, I think

1495
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 1: he Uh. And he became known as the Mystery Monkey

1496
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 1: of Tampa Bay. And in the same way as this

1497
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 1: Monk Seal story unfolded, but in a very different version

1498
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:36,200
Speaker 1: of it. A there was a political dynamic around the

1499
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:39,880
Speaker 1: Mystery Monkey in that here you had um Vernon Yates.

1500
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 1: It was sort of caricatured as this you know, dopey

1501
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:46,120
Speaker 1: small town sheriff animal, trapper guy out to you know,

1502
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:49,120
Speaker 1: trap this innocent creature, and the state, you know, the

1503
01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:53,639
Speaker 1: power of the state clamping down on the the animal. Yeah.

1504
01:26:53,920 --> 01:26:56,880
Speaker 1: And the populace wanted the monkey to be free. You know.

1505
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:59,559
Speaker 1: They were they were t shirts stay free Mystery Monkey,

1506
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 1: they were billboards, um, you know, social media accounts, and

1507
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:08,479
Speaker 1: it became again another intractable kind of um, you know,

1508
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 1: disagreement about what this monkey was all about and what

1509
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 1: we what we should do with it, right, you know,

1510
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:15,840
Speaker 1: you had the state saying it's a danger to people.

1511
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:20,720
Speaker 1: It's probably um suffering itself because they're communal animals, they're

1512
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:23,200
Speaker 1: social animals, and this one's been you know, outside of

1513
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:25,840
Speaker 1: its troop, and they have hepatitises over there. They all

1514
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 1: have herpies, not all, a lot of them have herpes

1515
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:32,840
Speaker 1: b I believe, which is was used as a as

1516
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:35,080
Speaker 1: kind of scare tactic as I see it by the

1517
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:37,560
Speaker 1: state to say, this is another reason we have to

1518
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:39,720
Speaker 1: get this monkey. Although when you kind of dig into

1519
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:41,799
Speaker 1: the science, because everybody will make love with the monkey

1520
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 1: and wind up yeah you know, yeah, people love and

1521
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 1: the monkeys with herpes are definitely telling the monkeys without

1522
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: herpes like, hey, everybody's got it. Yeah, you know, it's yeah,

1523
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:57,600
Speaker 1: um so yeah, so so uh so I was, and

1524
01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 1: I was there, um right before Republican Convention, you know,

1525
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:05,280
Speaker 1: in two thousand and twelve. This was the Romney in

1526
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:08,880
Speaker 1: their freedom was in the air, the Tea Party was ascendant. Um,

1527
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:10,439
Speaker 1: there was a lot of you know, in a way,

1528
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:15,000
Speaker 1: the monkey debate really mirrored the American debate of like,

1529
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:18,800
Speaker 1: you know, what is the line between tyranny and lawlessness?

1530
01:28:19,240 --> 01:28:21,880
Speaker 1: And you know what is the government for? And um,

1531
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:25,280
Speaker 1: you know, shouldn't we all just be free? And uh,

1532
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 1: it was fascinating. It was fascinating. I mean, the characters

1533
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 1: involved were fascinating. This guy Vernon shown, you know, he

1534
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 1: had like seventeen tigers at his house and uh, a

1535
01:28:34,520 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 1: big pile of alligators in the concrete pool. And uh

1536
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 1: and again in in just as I solved that monks

1537
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:46,400
Speaker 1: monksil crime, I managed to find the monkey, um, living

1538
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 1: very happily in someone's backyard. They had sort of reached

1539
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:53,479
Speaker 1: a kind of daytent with the monkey, and we're letting

1540
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:56,920
Speaker 1: it hang around their property. Um. It was actually through

1541
01:28:57,000 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 1: some reporter from the Tampa Bay Times had had had

1542
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 1: found this out, and I knew another source who had

1543
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 1: been working with the family to kind of take care

1544
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 1: of the monkey and keep the monkey, you know, close

1545
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:12,920
Speaker 1: and and well cared for, but also not bring it

1546
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:14,599
Speaker 1: too close to you know, everyone bringing into their house

1547
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:17,559
Speaker 1: or anything like that. It seemed to be working out

1548
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:19,240
Speaker 1: in a weird way. It was a weird kind of

1549
01:29:19,320 --> 01:29:24,040
Speaker 1: compromise happening between the monkeys rights and the humans need

1550
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: to keep the monkey a monkey. Did you ever get

1551
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:32,120
Speaker 1: Vernon's like personal opinion on whether or not the monkey

1552
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:34,160
Speaker 1: should be caught, like, aside from the fact that it's

1553
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:37,240
Speaker 1: his job, he absolutely thought the monkeys should be caught.

1554
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 1: He thought, I mean, like like this, like the wildlife officers,

1555
01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:47,439
Speaker 1: imagine your job is to keep wildlife healthy and keep

1556
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:50,360
Speaker 1: people safe from wildlife, and now you've got a monkey

1557
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 1: running around and everyone's more concerned about the monkeys rights.

1558
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:58,519
Speaker 1: So Vernon was was adamant that, um, you know, he

1559
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:01,559
Speaker 1: was doing this for the monkey, that the monkey needed

1560
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 1: to be captured. And we can jump ahead because the

1561
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:07,240
Speaker 1: you know, some stuff happened after I did this story,

1562
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:09,640
Speaker 1: but that it was in the monkey's best interest to

1563
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:12,559
Speaker 1: be brought into captivity where it could be with other

1564
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 1: monkeys of its kind and live out its life there.

1565
01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:17,559
Speaker 1: It was safer for the monkey and was safer for people.

1566
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,200
Speaker 1: Was there any talk about putting the monkey back on

1567
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 1: the river. No, because that's a I don't know that

1568
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:27,040
Speaker 1: this is why, but the monkeys on the river themselves

1569
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:30,280
Speaker 1: have been a huge source of controversy and aggravation because

1570
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:33,280
Speaker 1: at different times the state has tried to um trap

1571
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 1: that population and extinguish that population, which doesn't go over well,

1572
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 1: which does not go over well with people who like adorable,

1573
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:45,280
Speaker 1: anthropomorphized monkeys. Um, so there was I don't think there

1574
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:47,800
Speaker 1: was any sense that they were going to like relocate

1575
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:52,839
Speaker 1: the mystery monkey. Everyone knows about the non native situation Florida,

1576
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:55,040
Speaker 1: but very few people know about the non native monkeys

1577
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:57,240
Speaker 1: in Florida. Yeah, I had no idea. And there's other

1578
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:01,280
Speaker 1: there's another monkey population. Apparently there's a very monkeys by

1579
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:05,200
Speaker 1: the lad that. Yeah, that's been there for as long

1580
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:09,200
Speaker 1: as I was interested in monkeys in Florida, popular popular

1581
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:13,599
Speaker 1: uprisings around monkeys in Florida. Ever, did they ever get him? Oh? Sorry, Oh,

1582
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 1: I guess I was just wondering about Vernon's opinion too,

1583
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:19,719
Speaker 1: because in his role, right, he's got a pool full

1584
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 1: of alligators, he's got tigers, he knows that so much

1585
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:29,519
Speaker 1: of that exists in the state of Florida. It just

1586
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:33,759
Speaker 1: crossed my mind that he could possibly have an opinion

1587
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,599
Speaker 1: of like, I'm glad I'm getting paid to go try

1588
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:43,599
Speaker 1: to capture the monkey. But doesn't matter. No, he doesn't

1589
01:31:43,640 --> 01:31:48,320
Speaker 1: matter because there's already so many exactly. Well, I mean

1590
01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 1: he the reason why he has those animals is that

1591
01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:53,360
Speaker 1: those are animals that have that he has offered to

1592
01:31:53,479 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 1: read home from licensed or unlicensed owners in the state

1593
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 1: of Florida who did not you know, who were not

1594
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:04,719
Speaker 1: keeping their animals humanely. He complained to John about losing

1595
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:07,519
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars or the tortoises, and a divorce

1596
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:13,560
Speaker 1: settlement that's right, came after my turtles. Yeah, he loves tortoises.

1597
01:32:13,680 --> 01:32:15,400
Speaker 1: Was his sweet spot. I think he had a special

1598
01:32:15,560 --> 01:32:18,960
Speaker 1: special place in his heart for tortoises. Um. Yeah, one

1599
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:21,480
Speaker 1: of his five divorces, he got cleaned out of his tortoises.

1600
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 1: So so the mystery monkeys settled down and lived his life.

1601
01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:29,040
Speaker 1: Well that was where my story. That was where my

1602
01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:33,519
Speaker 1: story ended. And then a few months later, um, the

1603
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:39,080
Speaker 1: monkey was you know, everything was still peaceable at the house.

1604
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:43,800
Speaker 1: And then the monkey jumped on the woman the homeowners

1605
01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 1: back and startled her classic monkey on your back, absolutely

1606
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:53,800
Speaker 1: that you know, startled her. She reacted, that freaked out

1607
01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 1: the monkey, and the monkey bit her on the shoulder

1608
01:32:56,760 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 1: and then it was game over. So at that point

1609
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 1: the monkey had to be caught to be I guess

1610
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:04,600
Speaker 1: tested in the same way you know you get bit

1611
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:07,439
Speaker 1: by a stray dollar or something. I don't know the

1612
01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:11,120
Speaker 1: ins and outs of it, and involves decapitations often. Well,

1613
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:16,160
Speaker 1: this monkey was not decapitated, were beheaded. Um so Vernon

1614
01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:20,360
Speaker 1: came back in with this the state will Vernon was

1615
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:22,400
Speaker 1: probably the first call. I mean, you're not gonna at

1616
01:33:22,439 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 1: the time he had sunk into this, do you think

1617
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:25,720
Speaker 1: they're gonna give it to someone else? And this time

1618
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:27,960
Speaker 1: they were able to get him. They trapped the monkey,

1619
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:32,760
Speaker 1: who was then named Cornelius after the monkey and Planet

1620
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:34,040
Speaker 1: of the Apes, which I think I could take a

1621
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:35,600
Speaker 1: little bit of credit for because there's a part in

1622
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 1: the piece where I sort of have this delusional fever

1623
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 1: dream while I'm reading Planet of the Apes at a

1624
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 1: La Quinta in in Ocala. But they named him, uh,

1625
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 1: they named him Cornelius. They brought him to a kind

1626
01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:50,479
Speaker 1: of like a roadside attraction type zoo thing where he

1627
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:54,640
Speaker 1: was paired with another monkey named Cora. Settled down, he

1628
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:58,519
Speaker 1: had children, seemed to be living a happy life until

1629
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:04,280
Speaker 1: until his hours ago he developed as they had given

1630
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:06,200
Speaker 1: him a cyanide pillow to keep in his cheek and

1631
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:09,800
Speaker 1: when Um, no, until a few years ago. I guess

1632
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 1: that that facility where he was had come under fire

1633
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:17,240
Speaker 1: from Peter and some other organizations and they started, um

1634
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 1: they had a dozen or more tigers at this place,

1635
01:34:22,680 --> 01:34:25,679
Speaker 1: and there were some complaints and they started offloading their tigers,

1636
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:29,880
Speaker 1: driving them out to Oklahoma to the guy in that

1637
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:35,560
Speaker 1: Netflix show. Yeah, and Somes got tangled up with a

1638
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 1: tiger king. Well, that's where this So there was a

1639
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:42,680
Speaker 1: follow up report in the Tampa Bay Times trying to

1640
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:45,480
Speaker 1: figure this out, and it seems like in the confusion

1641
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 1: over all of this, Cornelius, the trail on Cornelius went cold.

1642
01:34:50,200 --> 01:34:53,040
Speaker 1: We don't know where he is and where he wound up,

1643
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 1: and uh, there's really no paper trail or anything. Yeah,

1644
01:34:57,360 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 1: are you going back down? I mean, I think it's

1645
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:02,719
Speaker 1: been it's been covered to death, but I'm curious. I'd

1646
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 1: like to know where he is. But if the trail

1647
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:07,679
Speaker 1: is cold, then it's obviously just right for John Well. Yeah,

1648
01:35:07,680 --> 01:35:11,479
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm gonna crack that one. But what

1649
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 1: you found the monks, the little sass in days, you

1650
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:17,720
Speaker 1: will find that monkey. Feel like it's like a lethal weapon. Lie,

1651
01:35:17,720 --> 01:35:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm getting too old for this. One last time. I

1652
01:35:22,240 --> 01:35:25,680
Speaker 1: think it's hilarious how you're staying at a Laquinta too,

1653
01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:29,599
Speaker 1: you know, because they're claimed to fame is they're always

1654
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:36,080
Speaker 1: pet friendly. There's no chance you have that monkey. I mean,

1655
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:39,200
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say they were getting into and they

1656
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 1: were getting into Netflix documentary territory. If it turns out

1657
01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:46,439
Speaker 1: that you have pretty well, there's a whole dome. Turn

1658
01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:50,720
Speaker 1: your friend in or not for reward, you know. But

1659
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:53,400
Speaker 1: that's actually the weird thing is that the monkey is

1660
01:35:53,479 --> 01:35:55,920
Speaker 1: not the reason why we don't know where the monkey

1661
01:35:56,040 --> 01:35:59,240
Speaker 1: is is because there's really no regulation that would require

1662
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:01,160
Speaker 1: them to stay where the monkey is there. As this

1663
01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:03,400
Speaker 1: there was a quote in this Tampa Bay Times to

1664
01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:06,280
Speaker 1: followup where the someone from the state was basically, it's

1665
01:36:06,320 --> 01:36:07,840
Speaker 1: just like a TV. You don't have to tell us

1666
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:11,439
Speaker 1: when you sell your TV to someone, right, So that

1667
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:15,280
Speaker 1: person who has the monkey should theoretically have papers for

1668
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:18,920
Speaker 1: the monkey, but there's no database where you can look

1669
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:24,760
Speaker 1: up who has what monkey, so they're just property. M Um.

1670
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:29,640
Speaker 1: In my Buffalo book, I wrote about uh, you know

1671
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:33,960
Speaker 1: the buffalo from the buffalohead Nickel. Not long after the

1672
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:40,160
Speaker 1: artist Um did his sculpture, which became the buffalo head nickel.

1673
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:45,000
Speaker 1: That buffalo's name is Black Diamond. He was sold um

1674
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:49,640
Speaker 1: in the meatpacking district in Manhattan and butchered and um

1675
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:55,720
Speaker 1: yielded an incredible eleven pounds bones meat. The guy that

1676
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:58,680
Speaker 1: owned the meat pack was a guy named Sills. I

1677
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,360
Speaker 1: think it was his last name. S I LZ got stuffed.

1678
01:37:03,920 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 1: So he for years had Black Diamond's head stuff from

1679
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:16,559
Speaker 1: the buffalo head nickel. He sold it right now someone. Ah,

1680
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:23,679
Speaker 1: it's speculated that someone has that stuffed head and doesn't

1681
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: know what it is, because no one's ever come forward

1682
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:30,680
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, I have Black Diamond's head. So

1683
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,160
Speaker 1: unless it got lost in the house firedever, it likes

1684
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:35,600
Speaker 1: like someone's like, I don't know where. It's just the

1685
01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:37,800
Speaker 1: thing I got from my grandpa. Yeah, there should be

1686
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:40,720
Speaker 1: some way, like you could get an alert on your phone,

1687
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:42,320
Speaker 1: like an Amber alert and it would just be like,

1688
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:44,200
Speaker 1: do you have a buffalo head? Can you send a

1689
01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:46,960
Speaker 1: picture of it to this? Can you know we just

1690
01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:50,160
Speaker 1: did it, just large buffalo head that looks like the

1691
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:53,720
Speaker 1: buffalo head nickel. Yeah. Yeah, we keep cracked this in

1692
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:56,040
Speaker 1: thirty seconds if we had a will to do it.

1693
01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:00,080
Speaker 1: UM so working on next. I know you can't you

1694
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 1: say not not that you're working on like a murder mystery,

1695
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:04,240
Speaker 1: but you don't want to talk about it because you're

1696
01:38:04,240 --> 01:38:06,840
Speaker 1: waiting on some permissions. But what what can you tell us?

1697
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:08,880
Speaker 1: Can you say what it involves without saying where it

1698
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:12,160
Speaker 1: involves it? This is my favorite subject. Yeah, well we've

1699
01:38:12,200 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 1: talked about neandertals before, right, So yeah, so I got

1700
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 1: really after I did a story about Neandertals, I got,

1701
01:38:18,400 --> 01:38:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, just kind of reawakened to how cool deep

1702
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:25,120
Speaker 1: time is that there were there were people so long ago.

1703
01:38:25,439 --> 01:38:28,960
Speaker 1: So yes, I've been really interested in writing about Paleolithic

1704
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:31,920
Speaker 1: cave art and I've been trying to find a way

1705
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 1: to do it. Um. What I didn't understand is that

1706
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:39,120
Speaker 1: these caves are like, um, the people who study these caves,

1707
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:42,840
Speaker 1: it's very proprietary, so like it's you know, this person

1708
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 1: will they're the person for that cave, you know, and

1709
01:38:45,400 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 1: then yeah, kind of if you're an up and coming researcher,

1710
01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:51,080
Speaker 1: you have to wait until that person retires or to

1711
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:53,040
Speaker 1: get your hands on a cave. Yeah. They're sort of

1712
01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:57,680
Speaker 1: like Supreme Court appointments or something. So yeah, so I've

1713
01:38:57,680 --> 01:38:59,880
Speaker 1: been talking to a lot of people, you know, all

1714
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 1: spring about trying to trying to talk my way into

1715
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:06,000
Speaker 1: a into a cave because I think it's um. I

1716
01:39:06,080 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 1: think there was this feeling in the past that the

1717
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:13,280
Speaker 1: people studying cave art we're we're trying to over interpret

1718
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:15,559
Speaker 1: what they were seeing, you know, so they would everything

1719
01:39:15,640 --> 01:39:19,360
Speaker 1: had to have like the biggest mediat possible explanation, like

1720
01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, we see X on a cave wall, and

1721
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:26,160
Speaker 1: therefore it means this about the Testament to the extinctions. Yeah,

1722
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:30,240
Speaker 1: they were you know, they revered the elk because here's

1723
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 1: a you know, and I think that that's that's kind

1724
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:36,599
Speaker 1: of that approaches in my mind from what I've learned,

1725
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:39,640
Speaker 1: is it's kind of being deflated a little bit and

1726
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:42,280
Speaker 1: people are studying more like the material culture of it,

1727
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:44,200
Speaker 1: like how was this actually made? What do we know

1728
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:46,120
Speaker 1: about the moment that it was made? And things like that.

1729
01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:50,800
Speaker 1: There was a lot of comments is that you kind

1730
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:53,519
Speaker 1: of down like the religious spiritual side of things too,

1731
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:59,400
Speaker 1: Like the people who painted were very special and because

1732
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:02,479
Speaker 1: because they had to be. There's no way it was

1733
01:40:02,840 --> 01:40:05,320
Speaker 1: There's no way it was like fourteen fifty year old

1734
01:40:05,400 --> 01:40:08,480
Speaker 1: kids dicking around in the cave but it was predominantly

1735
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:14,560
Speaker 1: male also, but they did some I think fingerprint analysis

1736
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:18,560
Speaker 1: something something pretty cool. And there's a lot of surprisingly

1737
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:24,320
Speaker 1: a lot of small children, females get out of my

1738
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:27,160
Speaker 1: way and go paint on the wall. You're telling me

1739
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:30,080
Speaker 1: kids drew stuff on walls. Well, yeah, And that one

1740
01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:31,720
Speaker 1: thing that I didn't realize either is like so many

1741
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:33,640
Speaker 1: of these sites because you know, you see, I've never

1742
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:36,040
Speaker 1: been in any of these caves, but you see, you know,

1743
01:40:36,080 --> 01:40:38,680
Speaker 1: the photographs of the walls. But I didn't realize is

1744
01:40:38,720 --> 01:40:40,720
Speaker 1: that a lot of these places where the biggest they

1745
01:40:40,760 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 1: call them galleries, where the biggest galleries are actually like

1746
01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:47,560
Speaker 1: really deep inside caves so that you like, you know,

1747
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:52,240
Speaker 1: they're they're through narrow passages, like they're very purposeful places

1748
01:40:52,600 --> 01:40:54,560
Speaker 1: that you had to try to get to, you know.

1749
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:56,360
Speaker 1: They didn't just walk in the cave and start drawing.

1750
01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:59,800
Speaker 1: And so that suggests like little crawls, like crawl spaces

1751
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 1: your crime and understuffing around it and exactly so they

1752
01:41:03,040 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 1: were very specific about where they wanted to do this.

1753
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:06,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means, but that just seemed

1754
01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 1: like an interesting fact. I mean, I think that one

1755
01:41:09,320 --> 01:41:11,800
Speaker 1: points to little people like children going in there and

1756
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:13,880
Speaker 1: doing it. Yeah, that's actually an interesting thought. I hadn't

1757
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:15,960
Speaker 1: thought about that yet. You know, Uh, you've no doubt

1758
01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:18,920
Speaker 1: seen her Zog's movie about cave paintings, so I'm big

1759
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:23,960
Speaker 1: her Zog. I was deeply disappointed with that movie. I

1760
01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:27,080
Speaker 1: want to see that movie with another writer who's been

1761
01:41:27,120 --> 01:41:29,479
Speaker 1: on this podcast. I would almost regard you guys as

1762
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:33,800
Speaker 1: peers and contemporaries. Ben Wallace Um. I went to see

1763
01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:38,000
Speaker 1: it with him and we laughed and I said, I

1764
01:41:38,120 --> 01:41:41,439
Speaker 1: don't know how you could make a bad movie about

1765
01:41:41,560 --> 01:41:44,879
Speaker 1: cave paintings, And he said, I was just wondering myself

1766
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:51,040
Speaker 1: the exact opposite. What did you what didn't you like

1767
01:41:51,120 --> 01:41:52,880
Speaker 1: about it? I love that movie. It was too it

1768
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:56,480
Speaker 1: was too it was too like it made it all ethereal,

1769
01:41:57,280 --> 01:41:59,880
Speaker 1: it was too like what were they dreaming? This must

1770
01:41:59,880 --> 01:42:02,720
Speaker 1: be their dreams? And you're kind of just what was

1771
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:04,800
Speaker 1: it like? What was it made out of? What do

1772
01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:08,800
Speaker 1: we think it was? Like? Stop stop this nonsense about

1773
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:13,439
Speaker 1: that these are like shamans capturing their dreams. Yeah, I

1774
01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:15,320
Speaker 1: can see that. I mean they did just things just

1775
01:42:15,400 --> 01:42:17,720
Speaker 1: so overblown. You got guys like dressed up like they're

1776
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,080
Speaker 1: from a long time ago. Like you like role play?

1777
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:24,880
Speaker 1: What do they call them? People? Large? There's like lar

1778
01:42:25,000 --> 01:42:29,200
Speaker 1: Per's in it, live action role players of like cave people.

1779
01:42:31,880 --> 01:42:33,759
Speaker 1: I love that. I don't think you want to alienate

1780
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:40,240
Speaker 1: the larking audience already most I'm a fan That Little

1781
01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:43,280
Speaker 1: Deader needs to Fly. He's got some masterpieces. Grizzly Man.

1782
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 1: He's got a novel out now. Yeah, it just came

1783
01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:50,240
Speaker 1: out and then he made, Um, what's that one Little

1784
01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:52,479
Speaker 1: Deader needs a Fly? Then he made a fictionalized version

1785
01:42:52,520 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 1: with Christian Bale. Yeah, I met him. I met him

1786
01:42:56,920 --> 01:42:59,320
Speaker 1: once at a in the We were trapped in the

1787
01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:04,679
Speaker 1: room of an ideas festival in Mexico together. They wouldn't

1788
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:07,320
Speaker 1: let us out for a few hours school and uh,

1789
01:43:07,640 --> 01:43:09,559
Speaker 1: there were a bunch of us and I slowly kind

1790
01:43:09,560 --> 01:43:12,439
Speaker 1: of made my way over to Werner Hertzog to ship

1791
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:14,280
Speaker 1: a little bit. He was telling me. This was right

1792
01:43:14,320 --> 01:43:17,680
Speaker 1: before he was making that documentary about volcanos, and he

1793
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:20,960
Speaker 1: kept he just wanted to talk about volcanoes all the time,

1794
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:24,040
Speaker 1: and that felt like the perfect way to meet. He's

1795
01:43:24,040 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 1: like a method actor, but a documents artists. Um he uh,

1796
01:43:31,400 --> 01:43:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, he wrote he made that crazy ass when

1797
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:35,240
Speaker 1: he used to do fictional films, not used to, but

1798
01:43:35,439 --> 01:43:37,760
Speaker 1: focused on He did Fits Crawl though, and it's about

1799
01:43:37,800 --> 01:43:42,080
Speaker 1: it like a deranged Robbert rubber Baron who the movie

1800
01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:44,479
Speaker 1: is that a guy does the impossible. He like build,

1801
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:47,559
Speaker 1: He moves his boat from one drainage in the Amazon

1802
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:51,760
Speaker 1: to the other, which involves like hoisting it up and

1803
01:43:51,840 --> 01:43:54,320
Speaker 1: over a ridge and down in another valley. So you think,

1804
01:43:54,400 --> 01:43:55,760
Speaker 1: like today you'd be like, oh, we'll just make a

1805
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:59,280
Speaker 1: thing look like c G I whatever. But he did

1806
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 1: the insane thing. They did exactly that. They took a

1807
01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:07,559
Speaker 1: boat and moved it. People like died on the production,

1808
01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:09,840
Speaker 1: and they made a movie about the movie called Burden

1809
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:14,280
Speaker 1: of Dreams. And in Burden of Dreams, Herzog is losing

1810
01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:17,679
Speaker 1: his mind over that he can't get his movie finished,

1811
01:44:17,680 --> 01:44:21,080
Speaker 1: which he did eventually finished, and he's going off about

1812
01:44:21,120 --> 01:44:25,559
Speaker 1: how much he hates the jungle, and Herzog says, birds

1813
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:36,599
Speaker 1: don't sing, they scream in agony. All right, man, thanks

1814
01:44:36,600 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Thank you, Thanks for tell

1815
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:41,560
Speaker 1: everybody your other books. We didn't really do we do

1816
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:45,080
Speaker 1: a show about about this is chance. I think we

1817
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:48,680
Speaker 1: focused on that specific Okay, So John MoU Alum like

1818
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:54,080
Speaker 1: move like cow Alum, not like Alan John m o

1819
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,519
Speaker 1: A L L E M no h in the John

1820
01:44:58,439 --> 01:45:01,400
Speaker 1: New book is serious face, author of This is Chance,

1821
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:04,439
Speaker 1: author of what was the Candidate? Not the creatures, wild

1822
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:09,559
Speaker 1: wild Ones, more about all about animals, about animals, well

1823
01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:15,000
Speaker 1: people all people going wacky about animals. Um am I

1824
01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:19,280
Speaker 1: missing books. This is Chance was about the biggest earthquake

1825
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:23,400
Speaker 1: to ever strike, sixty four earthquake. Yeah, good Friday earthquake.

1826
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:29,479
Speaker 1: Focuses on narrows in on a woman who became very

1827
01:45:29,520 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 1: influential in the chaos, Yeah, translating and providing news as

1828
01:45:35,320 --> 01:45:38,439
Speaker 1: this as the catastrophe unfolded. That's right, radio reporter named

1829
01:45:38,479 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 1: Genie Chance, who kind of was in the right place

1830
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:43,040
Speaker 1: at the right time and spent all of that weekend

1831
01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:48,120
Speaker 1: on the air pretty much as just chaos, as just

1832
01:45:48,240 --> 01:45:51,759
Speaker 1: being one source of like concrete information in a situation

1833
01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:54,200
Speaker 1: that did not seem to have much certainty at all,

1834
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:56,640
Speaker 1: and stay tuned for his thing on campaigns, which I

1835
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:00,240
Speaker 1: promise you'll be good. Thank you, you know, all right,

1836
01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:02,040
Speaker 1: Thanks everybody, Thanks, Thanks