WEBVTT - The New Deal 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 Sleepwalkers is a production of I Heart Radio and Unusual 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:17.080 productions in Casa Yeah Familiar. I was already at home, 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.720 resting with my family when I suddenly get a phone call. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:30.640 Had fallen from the sky. Picture of field in rural Mexico. 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:35.560 Surrounding it yellow tape, a police car flashing lights, soldiers 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.760 carrying automatic weapons. Inside the line of cordon is a 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.760 large transparent globe, a bit like a washed up jellyfish, 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.400 but in fact it had fallen from the sky. Here 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:54.320 is state official Juan Carlos Castile, important to corder. It 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:58.400 fell from the sky at n in an erratic way, 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.360 making circles. The artifact itself had some sensors and light 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:07.240 that was flashing beeping one Manuel Sanchez. You had the 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.520 guts to approach the object, look at it closely, take 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.160 pictures and share them. Those pictures quickly turned into a 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.759 social media phenomenon. It really cost punic in the people. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.679 Maybe they have never seen something like this. Actually, people 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.760 came from other settlements to see the artifact to take 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.840 selfies with it. I imagine that it could be an 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:33.360 ESPIONA charity fact that relay the images. Classified Information Officer 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.720 Castillo worried about the origin when a beeping wearing jellyfish 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:41.039 falls out of the sky. Sure it could be spycraft, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:46.319 but if it's something even scarier, something other worldly, Officer 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.320 Castillo noticed that the beast was tagged with the phone number, 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.320 and if you dial that number, you'd ultimately get to 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.080 balloon C s I. This is where we find out 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.920 why balloons either last a hundred days or they don't. 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:03.160 That's La des Roche and where at X, a secretive 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.880 lab at alphabet, Google's parent company. Their mission is no 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.520 less than to invent the future. And it's X who 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.640 piloted the program to launch balloons into the stratosphere and 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.920 retrieve them when they come down. So, in order to 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.440 look at a balloon that's the size of a tennis court, 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.960 where a failure smaller than a millimeter is a huge 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.480 problem for us UM, we do have to build specialized equipment. 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.799 So behind me is the world's largest flatbed scanner. We're 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.760 working on models of what does a certain type of 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.840 damage look like, what do we think causes that damage? 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.480 It kind of makes a fingerprint. But why does X 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.160 and balloons into the sky for months at a time 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:47.320 in the first place, I'm Velosen and this is Sleepwalkers. 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.880 So carry you first told me about this balloon being 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.520 discovered in rural Mexico, and then we tracked down the 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.960 first responders. But what grabbed you about the story? First 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:09.520 of all, it's a crazy story. Something fell out of 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.720 the sky into a field in rural Mexico, which I love. 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.240 But it's also one of those moments when you know, 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.119 real people come in contact with technology in a way 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.120 that almost feels like not to mention them again, but 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.240 like a Steven Spielberg movie, you know. I mean, just 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.760 imagine not knowing what this thing is in your backyard, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.960 and it sort of reminds me of other stories that 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.200 we've reported on, whether it's Gillian with targeting, Glen with 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:38.680 parole algorithms. You know, the way in which people interact 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:43.160 with technology is changing, and this is just the perfect 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:48.400 example of that. This February, we went to Mountain View 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.640 in California to visit x and learn how they're involved 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.400 with giant balloons floating in the stratosphere, because, as it 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.200 turns out, rural Mexico isn't the only place they've made contact. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.080 We had internet before Maria, we had so many things 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:08.080 that we depended on the Internet for everything. Five days 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:12.240 after Hurrican Maria devastated Puerto Rico, the SEC granted an 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:16.080 experimental license to X to restore cell service to the island. 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.839 The government let X step in to provide a service 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.320 it couldn't, and Google sent their balloons. So when we 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.800 saw what was happening in Puerto Rico, you know, it 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.680 was really hard for us not the help right like that. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.560 The whole company in some sense really wanted to get 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.240 behind that effort. It's kind of a rare opportunity when um, 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.920 there's a problem like that, where you know, problem with connectivity, 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.279 everyone's offline and you happen to have a fleet of 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.200 stratospheric Internet balloons like UM, I think we're probably the 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.320 only ones who can say that. That's Sell Candido, head 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.400 of Engineering Fallon And if cell towers in the sky 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.560 sound like the stuff of science fiction, they're already here 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:01.560 on A massive magnitude eight earthquake hit Peru, and while 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.080 cell towers and cables were down, Loons balloons were able 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:09.160 to restore temporary Internet access within just forty eight hours. 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.880 But how does Sell and his team get the balloons 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.880 to go where they're needed. So the idea in Act 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.520 one was we were going to build this ring or 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.320 balloons around the world, covering an entire latitude band. Obviously, 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.240 that's kind of a challenging concept to execute. Most of 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.760 them will be over the ocean, not connecting anyone. The 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.719 idea just wasn't feasible. So to make it work Google 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.920 had to figure out how to get the balloons to navigate. 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.240 Astro Tylor runs X and he supervised the original development 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.120 of Loon. We always hoped that the balloons could be 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:48.799 intelligent in which winds they choose to jump onto. As 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.320 the balloons have gotten better and better at predicting what 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.239 the winds will be at different altitudes, they can play 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:59.120 these more and more sophisticated chess games. If I go 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.919 up by a kilometer, I think I could catch a 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.960 wind that's going to the left at ten miles an hour, 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.360 and I'll hang out there for about three hours. Then 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.640 I'll go down by two kilometers and it plays this 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.560 out and makes this plan for how it's going to 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.679 get not just kind of to Australia, but right over Perth, 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:23.080 constantly reading the winds and predicting how they might change 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.120 in order to stay around the Earth is no small task, 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.400 and according to Sell, it takes a lot of computing power. 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:33.120 I don't think that you would be able to do this, 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.359 you know, if you had a person navigating each balloon. 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:42.080 The information processing capability and the act that you have 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.960 to be constantly watching making adjustments, it's a job that's 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.159 really well suited to a computer. It is a huge 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.839 volume of computation in our data center. I think that 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.520 is an area where Alphabet has a big advantage. How 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.400 big is a giant data center? Oh um, they're giant 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.760 shy uping center, bigger than shopping centers, powered by often 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.960 renewable energy, so they're often built next to a river 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.280 just so it can use an entire hydro electric plant. 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.200 You know, there's a time of computers being put to 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:17.000 all kinds of problems across Alphabet Luon is one of them. Right. 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.640 The reality is that today a company like Alphabet has 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:25.080 more computational power, more data and more engineering expertise than 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:29.080 most countries. So it can restore connectivity to Puerto Rico 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.360 or Peru after a natural disaster, and it can help 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.760 in daily emergencies as well as Obviously, Christio told us. 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.080 There are situations in his underconnected area that are currently 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.480 impossible to communicate quickly enough to receive help in time, 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.640 and Luon could change that. So the balloon that fell 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:47.960 out of the sky in Mexico, it was a sign 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.400 of things to come of a new global infrastructure being 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:56.120 built by technology companies, not governments, and that brings real leverage, 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.920 which is something we should all think about, even if 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.160 we don't find a giant gen fish in our backyard. 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:08.120 I'm all for development. There are emergency situations in the 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.560 Sierra that are impossible to communicate to us in order 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.000 to act within reasonable time frames, but I don't dismiss 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.800 the possibility of it being a trick by a company 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:25.960 to steal information from us either. Of course, these balloons 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.520 are actually very well intentioned fundamentally to bring internet to 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.280 places where it doesn't otherwise exist. That said, Kara, Google 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.240 aren't the only people trying to do this. Facebook are two, 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:38.560 and they had a program for a while attempting to 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.120 use solar powered drones to connect the world. Right, And 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.800 when Facebook and Google are both trying to do something, 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.120 it's says to me that it's probably not purely a 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.960 philanthropic endeavor, there's probably some bottom line and getting all 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.440 those people online. So anyway, we just heard from astro Teller, 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.520 who runs X, which is historically a very secretive organization. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.200 We were invited inside the building. Do you understand a 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.320 bit more about how one of the world's most powerful companies, 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:12.480 Google is thinking about inventing the future. Hi, I'm astro Teller. 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.760 I am the captain of Moonshots here at X. It's 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.920 the part of alphabet where we try to design things 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.959 that can become, if we're lucky, new businesses, hopefully Google scale, 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.360 new businesses that can be as good for the world 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.199 as Google husband. So Astro has charged with bulk producing 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:36.040 Google scale innovations, as impossible as that sounds, but like 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.800 any good factory supervisor, he's got some clear criteria. In 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.040 order for something to be a moonshot, we require that 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.520 it has three things. A huge problem with the world, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.720 radical proposed solution, and then some kind of breakthrough technology 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.560 that gives us at least a fighting chance of making 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.760 that science fiction sounding product. If you look around, you'll 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:59.800 see a lot of bear concrete, polished cement floors apply 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.800 would on the walls. The building's work in progress because 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:07.439 the projects here are a work in progress. To even 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:11.400 be considered for development at X, ideas have to be spectacular, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.520 balanced at the edge of the impossible. When someone says, 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.679 what if we put a band of copper around the 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:24.040 North Pole and let the flux of Earth's magnetic core, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.720 which goes up and down like a reversing, very slow 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:33.640 alternating current, turn it into current in that wire, and 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.720 then we could pipe all that current down to Norway 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:41.480 or something and power the Earth that way. That may 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:47.319 not actually work, but that statement that what if definitely 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:51.160 took you outside of the normal, And as Astro points out, 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.120 the lab itself is a moon shot. He has charged 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.480 with delivering ten X impact on the world's most intractable problems. 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.880 But they take think concerns seriously too, which is reportedly 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.320 why X abandoned what on an invisibility device. We go 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.400 talk to the public, we go talk to experts and 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.679 thought leaders, we go talk to regulators, and we put 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.920 these half formed ideas and prototypes in front of them 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.000 and say, this is the problem we're trying to solve, 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.360 here's how we're currently trying to solve it. What do 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.800 you think And we get feedback and that helps educate 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:30.160 us and repoint us in various ways. Internally, we also 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.760 play a lot of what if games, So an example 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:38.360 is what we call design fiction, where we either make 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:43.440 pictures or literally write stories about our technology and how 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.320 it might play out. But if you can't imagine it 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.400 working out in really good ways for society, we definitely 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.160 shouldn't be making it. And if you can imagine it 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.920 working out, but you can describe some bad things that 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:01.239 this moonshot might cause in society, being able to describe 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.520 those things means maybe we can change how we're working 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.200 on the moon shot. It's good to hear that there's 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.040 a strong ethical framework governing innovation at X, but it's 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.360 still a private company and they're making ethical decisions that 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.120 impact all of us. Astro has been talking about infrastructure, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.000 but remember in our first episode the program to deter 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.640 potential terrorists using targeted ads that was also sponsored by Google. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.080 So providing Internet and deterring terrorists are both good ideas, 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.320 but when the same company does both and so much more, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:39.040 the concentration of power is concerning. Then again, in a 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.960 political environment of gridlock and proposed cuts to science funding, 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.120 maybe we should be grateful that the big technology companies 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:51.560 are stepping into tackle urgent problems. You've heard the bacteria 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:56.800 around the world are becoming more resistant to antibiotics. There's 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:02.160 no way for some drug company to chase after all 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:07.640 of these increasingly antibiotic resistant bacteria. And yet if we 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.160 don't chase after them, we're going to look back at 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.600 this time in the world as the golden age of 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.320 antibiotics and sure miss it. Even if you could just 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:21.880 simulate a bacteria inside a computer, that is asked, what 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:26.160 would happen to this bacteria if I knocked out this gene, 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.240 if I changed the pH in the solution that it's 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.560 sitting in, if I subjected it to a lot of 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.280 UV light. If you could just ask those kinds of 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:40.359 basic questions, you could start to design new antibacterial agents 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.200 at a thousand times the rate because you don't have 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.080 to go around pipetting and waiting for these things to 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:51.040 grow or die. If you could simulate life, that is, 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.480 model any part of biology inside the computer, it would 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.559 be a do over for the life sciences. That's an 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.000 example of something we're in the very early days of exploring. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:09.360 Alphabet Google x loon Jigsaw. This constellation of interlocking companies 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.280 is working on everything from bringing the Internet remote parts 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.880 of the world, to deterring terrorists to creating new kinds 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.480 of antibiotics. And if that sounds a lot like the 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:22.480 work of government, well that's because it is. When we 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.400 come back, we ask what does this concentration of power 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.880 mean for us and what should we do about it. 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.520 We've been talking a lot about Google Cara, but of 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.840 course there's not just Google. We mentioned Facebook earlier, and 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.160 then there's Amazon. Amazon makes up almost half of all 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.520 online sales in the US. Just think about everything, you know. 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.720 We've talked about Alexa gathering intimate data and more than 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.640 a hundred million American homes and Jeff Be's His ambitions 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.680 also include redefining healthcare in the US and also recently 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:02.840 colonizing space where nicely so humble. Um, but it is 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.720 getting harder and harder to define what these massive businesses 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.320 actually are. Donald Trump calls the Washington Post the Amazon 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.880 Washington Post, which it is since Bezo sported. I mean, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.240 I guess, not exactly the Amazon Washington Post. But it 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.640 does identify a real issue, which is that it's getting 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:22.120 harder and harder to say what these multi industry companies are. Well, yes, 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.000 because they all do so much, So how do we 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.640 regulate them. One person who's been out in front of 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.880 this issue is Lena Can While at Yale Law School 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:35.040 and age eight, she wrote a landmark article called Amazon's 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.680 antitrust Paradox. And we're now starting to have conversations as 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.800 a society about using monopoly law to limit the power 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.760 of the big tech companies. But Lena really kicks out 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.560 of the conversation. So I was very excited when she 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.040 agreed to join us on the show. These technologies are complicated. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.120 There are oftentimes involved in multiple lines of business, and 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.440 so for many everyday people, including lawmakers, they don't actually 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.360 understand and how these firms operate. According to Lena, the 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:07.480 big three Amazon, Facebook, and Google have one thing in common. 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:13.040 They've emerged as gatekeepers of the digital economy. Amazon, Google 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.480 and Facebook are in a position where they can really 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.600 pick winners and losers, especially among the merchants or the 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.240 content producers or the app developers that are now reliant 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.840 on their platform to get to market. So if you're 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:31.400 a consumer, you're primarily thinking about price, about convenience, about quality, um, 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.760 you know, if the fact, if you're a new parent 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.640 and you can just order diapers and they'll be reliably 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.400 at your doorstep the next morning, there's no doubt that 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:45.320 Amazon has provided important benefits to consumers. But if you're 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.640 thinking about the company as a citizen, and you're thinking 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.600 about the market power that it has, if you're thinking 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.320 about the way that it was able to avoid paying 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.480 sales taxes for the first years that it was in business, 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.000 if you're looking at the way in which Amazon or 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.840 distorted its searched for its second headquarters, where it was 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.639 pretty ruthlessly pitting city against city and showing that it 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.199 was really willing to extort municipalities try and get the 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.640 biggest subsidy possible, and then ended up playing a bit 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:15.919 of a bait and switch where it collected all of 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.760 this information from all of these different cities, which now 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.600 inevitably will give it a competitive advantage. I mean, there's 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.840 just so many different dimensions of Amazon's dominance that are troubling. 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.040 If there was any doubt about Amazon's power to compel politicians, 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.040 the search for the second headquarters should have cleared it up. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.560 And now Amazon is beginning to build leverage over the 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.800 federal government. There have been reports from the Institute for 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.399 Local Self Reliance about how Amazon is now on the 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.359 cusp of receiving potentially a big contract with the Pentagon Um. 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.640 So it's just entrenching itself deeper and deeper into our 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.000 daily lives in ways that if you just look at 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.199 an isolation, you will miss the bigger picture. But I 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.760 think as a citizen and as somebody who's looking at 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.440 the social and political implications of this, it's quite troubling. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.639 I'm very struck Carab by Lena's distinction between being a 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.800 consumer and being a citizen, because of course, as consumers, 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.120 we always want the best price and the most convenience. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.880 But it's fascinating to think that that can be directly 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.760 at odds with our responsibilities and even our interests as citizens. Yeah, 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:22.280 you know, I think a lot of readers who love 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.120 independent bookstores have this problem. You know, do I order 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.200 on Amazon because I want the book tomorrow and because 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.119 it's cheap and because I'm trying to save money, or 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.560 do I buy it at the independent bookstore where you know, 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.000 I've gone and loved for years. So yeah, I always 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:36.680 think about that. But you know, I think we also 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:38.920 have to think about shareholders and politicians when we talk 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.520 about this. Amazon shareholders are trying to keep Amazon from 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.760 selling Amazon's recognition technology to the US government, But those 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.000 same shareholders are profiting off of Amazon success, So we 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.920 really can't always rely on shareholders to do that. Yeah. 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.200 I mean, those shareholders who don't want Amazon to sell 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.760 facial recognition technology to the government are actually acting against 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.240 them interests, and that's an anomaly, which is why we 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:08.600 have government theoretically. But remember the Facebook Senate hearings. I mean, 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.320 the senators did a terrible job of holding Zuckerberg to account. 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.600 Mr Zuckerberg, I remember well your first visit to Capitol 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.520 Hill back in two thousand and ten, you spoke to 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.879 the Senate Republican high Tech tasks for us, which I 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:25.159 chare You said back then that Facebook would always be free. 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.960 How do you sustain a bitteress model in which users 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:36.840 don't play for your service? Senator, we run ads? Nice, see, Senator, 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.640 we run ads. That was Mark Zuckerberg's response to Senator 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.080 orn Hatch, which was probably the low point in a 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.320 series of low points in those Senate hearings, and also 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.600 the moment that really maybe want to make this podcast 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.760 because clearly the people who have the power and duty 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.440 to question the big technology companies are either being deredicted 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.280 their responsibilities or they simply don't understand what's going on. 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.359 And I'm not sure which is worse. Part of the 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.359 issue with the Senate is that collectively they are a 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.960 million years old, um. But part of it is also 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.159 that they all rely on Facebook ads and pages for reelection, 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.679 and they want Facebook money in their states. That's what 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:19.080 we call a conflict of interest. Conflict of interest and 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.960 a friend of mine from university literally wrote the book 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.200 on this issue. It's called Future Politics. He's a lawyer 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:31.000 called Jamie Suskind. It's an ancient idea in human civilization 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.639 that we don't allow great forms of power to be 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:40.119 erected over us without some degree of transparency, so we 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.359 know what's being done with technology. It's very early days, 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.800 but we need to look at the stuff as citizens 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.720 like we would at any form of power that a 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.600 cruise over our head, whether it's corporate power or political 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.760 power or great economic power. One of the big problems, 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.399 as Jamie sees it, is that as these big technology 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.200 companies get involved with things like creating new drug or 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.120 fighting terrorism. We start to talk about them as nation states, 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:06.640 and we missed the mark. You know, you'll see journalists 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.680 and commentators saying our tech firms are the new states, 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.560 and I just think that's that's sloppy thinking they might 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.119 have some stuff in common with states. But tech firms 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.600 are commercial entities operating in a market system for the 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:22.120 pursuit of profit and are answerable to their shareholders, which 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.720 is obviously just a profoundly different social institution to a state. 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.000 Kara mentioned that Amazon shareholders were pressuring the company to 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.600 ban facial recognition software sales, but in late May of 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.200 that measure was roundly defeated by a vote at the 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:42.040 company's annual general meeting, so Amazon will continue selling facial 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:46.240 recognition technology. And this highlights what Jamie is saying. These 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.639 firms are motivated by profit, unlike states, which are motivated 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.879 by protecting their citizens. Senator Elizabeth Warren has suggested one 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.800 solution might be to treat the big technology companies like 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:01.600 utility companies, things like regulating price and access. But Jamie 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:06.120 thinks this actually underplays just how powerful and consequential these 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:09.480 companies really are. They're not like utility firms. The water 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:12.040 company doesn't get you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do. 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.359 It doesn't affect the democratic process, it doesn't set the 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.399 limits of your liberty, and it doesn't distribute things of 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.719 importance throughout society according to principles of justice, which are 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:24.679 all things that I would say that tech firms now do. 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:27.560 So rowing back, we don't really have the words to 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.840 describe what a tech firm is conceptually and politically, and 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:32.800 so it's no wonder that we're not coming up with 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:36.040 policies and regulations and laws because we don't even have 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.360 the words to describe the future, even if we could 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:43.240 see it. When we come back, we investigate that future 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:52.600 and ask what we can do to regain some control. So, Kara, 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:54.679 everyone is now thinking a lot about the role of 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.960 technology in our lives, and one of the popular things 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.399 recently has been for reporters to try and live without technology. 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:04.520 I feel like phone detox is the new weight watchers, 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.200 and I'm kind of sick of it. But Kashmir Hill 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:10.280 did this really interesting story for Gizmoto where she tried 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:13.200 not to use any products from the big five tech companies. 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.439 You know, she blocked Amazon, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and Apple, 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:18.879 and she said it was hell, you know, I think 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:22.800 about my own life, Google and Amazon are absolutely indispensable 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:24.719 to me. And then there are times where I'm like, oh, 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:27.080 I don't really use Facebook that much, you know, and 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:31.119 I'm sitting in a public restroom at two pm on 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.760 Instagram and sort of check on my there's Facebook, right, 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.639 And I think what Kashmir Hills story also revealed is 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:39.600 that even when we think we're not using one of 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.960 those companies products, we may well be using a website 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:45.679 or an app that's powered by them. So it's basically 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:48.840 impossible to opt out his Lina again, if what you 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:50.679 mean by opt out is you know, not have an 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.120 Amazon Prime account or not have Gmail. You know, there 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.440 may be ways in which you can stop using these 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.760 services in a day to day sense, But Amazon also 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.479 owns Amazon Web Services UM, which you know much of 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:08.080 the Internet now relies on. Google is providing the back 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:11.840 end infrastructure for so many other services. So I think, 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.040 you know, if you're if you're trying to UM, if 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:17.480 you're trying to delete these firms from all aspects of 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:20.359 your life, it actually becomes very difficult to live in 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:24.199