1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson. 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling railvalry. No, no, sibling, 4 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: you don't do that with your mouth, revelry. That's good. 5 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: Doctor Nancy s Eagle, Yes, I call her a DNS. 6 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: So I thought this was so cool. We talked to 7 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: the doctor Nancy was like a grill session. It was 8 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: like just like, well, then what if this happens? But 9 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: then what if that happens? Oh my god? You what that? 10 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: We also forgot to ask a question afterwards. We were like, 11 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: why didn't we ask that question? Which one? I know? 12 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: First of all, explain who she is before? Okay, so 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:12,639 Speaker 1: Nancy doctor Siegel. Nancy Siegel is the go to twin 14 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: expert twenty five plus years study only twins. She's the 15 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: director of the Twins Studies Center at California State University Fullerton. 16 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: She's traveled the world studying twins and exploring nature versus nurtures. 17 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: Oliver and I were question exactly because Katie and I 18 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: are with that like the nature versus nurture thing, because 19 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: we come from a family where we have the same 20 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: values and we do things a little bit differently. So 21 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: the whole nature nurture thing is a big play. It 22 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: plays big and sort of the way that I think. 23 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: And so in this context with twins, it was just fast, fascinating. Yeah, 24 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: so fascinating, and she really broke down the differences, you know, 25 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: and shared some crazy stories about twins meeting later in 26 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: life and then some of the similarities that they shared. 27 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: And obviously, well maybe I don't want to ruin that. 28 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ruin. No, I'm not. You guys are 29 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: going to listen. It's a fascinating conversation. It's amazing. So 30 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: you're you're gonna they're gonna look, there's stories you're gonna hear. 31 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: We're like, what the hell I mean, It's it's really 32 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: just amazing, amazing stuff. So here is doctor Nancy Siegel. Hello, doctor, Hi, 33 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: how are you? Kate and Oliver? Really nice to meet you. 34 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to our Sibling Revelry podcast. I love the name. 35 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: It's fabulous. Thanks. It's what we strive for, you know, 36 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: to revel in each other, which happens percent of the time. No, 37 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: that's that's ridiculous. Sorry, And you're the big brother Oliver, right, 38 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: I am the first one who's gotten that right. Yes, 39 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: I was just so weird because he looks so much 40 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: older than me. I would think, I look pretty good, 41 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: you look great, you look great. I'm a fraternal twin. 42 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if you know that, but I have 43 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: a fraternal twin sister, and she looks a lot older 44 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: than me, but I'm technically the older one. Oh really, 45 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of weird because everyone assumes she's older, but 46 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: she's not. Bye, how by how long are you older? 47 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: Seven minutes? But that can meet a lot when you're 48 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: a kid. Well, I'm gonna actually that's funny. Does that? 49 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: Does that? Is that something that always comes into play 50 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: when you're when twins are talking about who's older and 51 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: who's younger? Or is it tongue in cheek or does 52 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: it matter? Once in a great while, it doesn't really matter. 53 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: I mean, she sort of took the position of the 54 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: older one, so I've lived with it. I'm comfortable with 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: where I am. Oh my god, for everyone listening, I 56 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: would just like for you to introduce yourself a little 57 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: bit and tell everybody what it is that you do 58 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: what you specialize in. Sure, Well, I'm doctor Nancy Stiegel. 59 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: I'm a psychology professor at California State University, Fullerton. I'm 60 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: also the director and the founder of the Twins Study Center, 61 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: and we provide information on twins to interested scholars and 62 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: the public, and that also supports my research and the 63 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: research of my colleagues and students. I teach special seminars 64 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: and twin research and I just love studying twins because 65 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: they're so professionally engaging and so personally meaningful to me 66 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: as a maternal twin. It's a simple and elegant way 67 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: of looking at genetic and environment that influences on behavior. 68 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: And the great thing for me is that it never 69 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: gets old. There are always new things to study that 70 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: are more exciting than last year's. Well. It's like it's 71 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,679 Speaker 1: something where when you hear studies about twins, I feel 72 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: like it always makes a headline, like whether it's the 73 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: there was the study that they did with this going 74 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: into space? Do you remember that? And then the documentary 75 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: that actually you touch on in your new book. You 76 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: have a new book, and uh, did you see that documentary? 77 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: I did? Crazy? Crazy? What was it called? Again? Uh? Oh, 78 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: the documentary Three Identical Strangers, Yes, that was what it was. Yes, 79 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: Oh sure, Oh my god, what an unbelievable story. It's unbelievable. 80 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: And the book goes into the stories of all those 81 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: other tours were studied and some who were separated, who 82 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: were not studied. Right, We've interviewed a couple twins. We 83 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: had the Property brothers on, we had oh, the Bella twins. Yeah, 84 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: and there really is there really is something very to me, 85 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: at least interviewing all these siblings, very different about the 86 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: twin experience. But it feels like it's a very codependent 87 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: relationship a lot of the time, and that they have 88 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: to learn twins have to learn how to It's maybe 89 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more difficult to individuate, you know. I 90 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: think that the ones who seem to be codependent are 91 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: the ones that we hear about. But for the most part, 92 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: twins are very healthy group, and in fact, one study 93 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: found that there were lower rates of suicide in twins 94 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: than in non twins because they have a support system 95 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: built in for life. But what so fascinates me about 96 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: identical twins in particular is that they just understand each 97 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: other so well. They have it built in support system. 98 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: They understand each other, they react to the world in 99 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: the same way. And so I don't know if the 100 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: Triple said this in the documentary or not, but in 101 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: another program that I saw with them, they said, you know, 102 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: it's very easy to have an argument because you know 103 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: what the other one is going to say. So they 104 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: think alike. And it's a real luxury, you know that. 105 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: I think many people crave and are jealous of, and 106 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: yet I think it's what we all strive for, somebody 107 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: who understands us and who accepts us unconditionally. Now, fraternal 108 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: twins are much more variable in that respect. They're ordinary siblings, 109 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: just like the two of you. But the difference is 110 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: that they come into the world at the same point 111 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: in time, so they share many developmental mind stones alike, 112 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: but they're not quite as close as the identicals on average. 113 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: They're genetically different. So what makes that up? Why is that? 114 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: I mean, why is it that an identical twin has 115 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: that kind of connection. It's because they're genetically the same. 116 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: They're essentially clones, and so they react to the world 117 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: in the same way, they respond to things, the same way, 118 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: They like the same people and opportunities and events. They 119 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: have the same talents and likes and dislikes, and so 120 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: they just move in life in sync. And sometimes they 121 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: feel that maybe they should differentiate, because that's what society expects, 122 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: you know, we all appreciate individual differences so much and 123 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: value our uniqueness. But when they try to do that, 124 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: they often find they're uncomfortable, you know, they're doing what 125 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: doesn't feel quite right, and so they get back together again. 126 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: And I think that we shouldn't judge them if they're 127 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: happy and get along. But how much is it nature 128 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: versus nurture? Meaning like, what if you're a twin and 129 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: you make the decision not to dress alike or run 130 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: in the same stride. We have twins who run right by, 131 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: identical twins who see all the time, I mean literally 132 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: for years outfit everything. It's beautiful and perfect and so 133 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: in sync. And they could win some sort of an 134 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: Olympic medal if they if they, if they chose to enter. 135 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: But where is the nature versus nurture? If I just said, hey, 136 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want to be anything like you. 137 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to dress anything like you, Well, you 138 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: know that's really the million dollar question. And actually we 139 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: don't talk about nature versus nurture. We talk about nature 140 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: dash nurture, or nature and nurture, because everything we do 141 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: is a product of both. Now, the way that we 142 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: can assign a genetic complement or a genetic value to 143 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: a certain behavior like personality. Most personality traits like extraversion 144 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: sociability have about a fifty percent genetic influence when you 145 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: look at populations, but at individual levels, if one twin 146 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: doesn't want to dress alike or wants to be a 147 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: little more reclusive, that's a decision that person makes. And 148 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, genes are not deterministic. Genes act in probabilistic ways, 149 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: and so they don't tell you dress alike or tell 150 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: you study art at school. They may incline you in 151 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: that way, and it's up to you decide to do it. 152 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: You know, we find genetic effects on divorce. People with 153 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: different difficult personalities will divorce more than people who don't 154 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: have difficult personalities. But their genes don't tell them to divorce. 155 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: They make that decision to divorce or to separate or 156 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: what have you. Are you saying that divorce can be 157 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: a genetic disposition, Yes, I can Kate, it can. But 158 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: it's not like there is a gene for divorce. It's 159 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: a constellation of genes that have to do with personality, temperament, 160 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: things like that. So, for example, I can't blame my 161 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: mom for the you can with some sort of a 162 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: divorce situation, your tiny bit, tiny bit, But ultimately you 163 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: make that decision. And remember remember too that that you 164 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: don't inherit all genes from your mom. You and charit 165 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: half and those genes that you get from your dad 166 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: will interact with the genes from your mom maybe produce 167 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: a whole different you. Right, so we definitely have the 168 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: divorce gene. Yeah, okay, but good, all right, you get 169 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: to the award. But the thing is that just because 170 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: you have that predisposition, it's probably good to know that 171 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: because then you can be aware of it and maybe 172 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: take steps to take care of it. So, for example, 173 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: suppose alcoholism runs in your family. Right, it doesn't mean 174 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: that you are destined to be an alcoholic, but because 175 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: of that, you may moderate your drinks a little bit, 176 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, things like that. So it's helpful to know 177 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: what predispositions run in your family just as a guide, 178 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: but at an individual level. You know, something can have 179 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: a very highly genetic influence and at your level, doesn't 180 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: mean when you're dealing with when you're dealing with identical 181 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: twins specifically, because it seems like the fraternal twins. Yes, 182 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: you are just born at the same time, so those 183 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: develop developmental milestones are are the same. But what about 184 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: sort of the as far as identical twins, the levels 185 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: of competition, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, well 186 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: that's that's a great area. And you know, competition takes 187 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: on a whole new meeting with identical twins, because what 188 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: it means for many pairs is that I can do 189 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: a little bit better than you, but because I'm genetically 190 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: the same, I can probably catch right up. And I 191 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: think that's why we see a lot of identical twins 192 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: who were lead athletes in the Olympics. I've done some 193 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: stats on that. It's a competition, but but just like 194 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: but it is the kind of thing where if I 195 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: do better than you, I'm not going to lord it 196 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: over you. It's a double victory for both of us. Right. 197 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: I played with two sets of identical twins and soccer, 198 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: both of whom went and played at the professional level. 199 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: But growing up. We played together all the time and 200 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: it was really interesting. They were very similar. I mean 201 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: they definitely pot were stronger in different positions, but they 202 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: were like very like great athletes. Yeah, because they when 203 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: they come home from school, they have each other to 204 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: practice with, somebody an identical twin. One said, we have 205 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: twenty four hour practice partners, and other kids don't have that, 206 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: so they really What I find so striking about identical 207 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: twins is that there was such a selfless attitude toward victory. 208 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: For one, you know, the skiers Phil and Steve Mayer, 209 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: they were in the Olympic sloalums back in nineteen eighty four. 210 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: One of them turned into gold medal performance and the 211 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: other one and he said to his brother, here's what 212 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: you have to do to beat me. And that's amazing, right. 213 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: Would I could never be that selfless with my twins. No, well, 214 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: it's your fraternal it's different, yeah, I mean, but so basically, 215 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: Oliver and I if we were fraternal twins, because I 216 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: have a friend who us praternal twins, we would be 217 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: exactly the same genetic makeup as we are right now, 218 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: only the same age. Right, Yes, that's right, exactly exactly 219 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: so one, I'm gonna explain really quickly how it works, 220 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: the fraternal twin versus the identical twins. I will I 221 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: know because I'm very smart. So with identical twins, what 222 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,119 Speaker 1: happens is that the mother releases an egg, it's fertilized 223 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: by the father, and sometime within the first fourteen days 224 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: after conception, that fertilized egg divides and it creates two 225 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: identical twins, and in the case of those triplets, one 226 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: of those eggs divided again to produce three of them. Now, 227 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: with fraternal twins, the mom releases two eggs at the 228 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: same time and they're separately fertilized by different sperm from 229 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: the father. So they are genetically no more like than siblings, 230 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: which are half their genes on average, but they're born 231 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: at the same time. They have the same intriut to environment, 232 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: so they might be more like because of those reasons 233 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: or too. Five to one night's day. Yeah, oh you've done, 234 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: You've done your homework. Oh really? Yeah? Yeah. You can 235 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: have twins, Kate that have different fathers. They have the 236 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: same mother and different fathers. If the mother releases two 237 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: eggs and she has sexual relations with two different men, 238 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: within about a four day window, then they can be 239 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: conceived with different fathers, So they're really genetic half siblings. 240 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: How many of them all out there? How many are 241 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: out there in the world. We don't know that. We 242 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: don't know that exactly. A lot of people claim that 243 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: they're rather rare. Honestly, I don't think they are. I 244 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: think that it's a matter of detecting them. If, for example, 245 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: the two fathers had similar ethnicities, hair color, I mean, this, 246 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: and that, then you're not going to detect it. But 247 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: one of the very first cases ever reported on was 248 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: a Caucasian woman who had sexual relations with a Caucasian 249 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: man and an African American. And I'm sorry, you couldn't 250 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: hide it. Yeah. Wow, wow, this is really interesting from 251 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: a scientific standpoint, you know, because of course, I think 252 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: we all do have some sort of psychic ability, I 253 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe tapping into something bigger, right, I mean, 254 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: Kate says that she has sort of feelings and she's 255 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: a bit psychic. I'm just saying. I'm just saying, I am, 256 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: you know, But when you're talking about twins, and you're here, 257 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: especially identical twins, and you're hearing about sort of when 258 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: one feels something the other feels the other, or the 259 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: specific study of the amount of bracelets that that one 260 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: twin had on when they finally met they had the 261 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: exact same I mean, is there is there science backed 262 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: so the couple the woman who's talking about is there 263 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: were these twins raised apart in England. They were women. 264 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: They met in their thirties, and we studied them at 265 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: the University of Minnesota, and when they showed up at 266 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: the airport, they were both wearing seven bracelets, three rings 267 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: in a watch. Now I look at that in a 268 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: more scientific vein, because why do you wear jewelry because 269 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: it looks very nice on your hands? They had long, 270 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: slender fingers, they could afford to buy it. They might 271 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: have been attracted to glittery, shiny objects. So I don't 272 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: think it's just a coincidence. And I've looked at the 273 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: psychic sorts of studies that have been done with twins, 274 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: and I think that there are better explanations for that 275 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: grounded in their genetic identity. I really believe that you're 276 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: right that we do hear sometimes about one twin who's 277 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: worried about the other and the other one's lying dead. 278 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: In the street. But there are many times when there 279 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: are missus and if you if you worry about your 280 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: twin all the time, and you say, I know that 281 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: that phone call is from them, I mean if they 282 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: call you ten times a day, it's not a big yeah, 283 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: exactly exactly, I don't know. I mean, there is the 284 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: quantum entanglement thing that that word remember that I use 285 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: that I have with my with certain people in my family, 286 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: like my mom. I will have not spoken to her 287 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: for a week, and all of a sudden, the phone 288 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: will ring. No, I will think before the phone rings, 289 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: I know moms calling me. And it's not even like 290 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: a thought that I'm consciously creating. It just comes like 291 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: Mom's gonna call, and the phone will ring, like that's 292 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: happened to me multiple times, and it's And the way 293 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: I would the way I would look at that is 294 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: that you haven't heard from your mom, probably thinking about her. 295 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: It's time that she called, right. Except I do believe 296 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: in the quantum. I do believe that there are there 297 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: are certain sort of things out there that we haven't 298 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: quite that they're that they're researching about quantum entanglement. Yeah, 299 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: I mean being a being, a being a doctor having 300 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: seen these twins, especially in this world, identical twins who 301 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: seemingly have a connection beyond what two regular people might 302 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: not have. How how do you square that? I mean, 303 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: do you do you have some mysticism or you like 304 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: stress out? No, No, not at all. I'm completely scientific 305 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: in this respect, and I just think that anything is possible. 306 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: We have to stay open to any kind of new evidence. 307 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm willing to be persuaded. But I just see that 308 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: if the genes behind the behaviors we know so much 309 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: about our behavior has a genetic component to it, not entirely, 310 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: but a genetic one that's substantial, And I just look 311 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: at it that way. And identical twins are not exactly 312 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: the same either. I mean, there are lots of variations. 313 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: It's just that they're more like than any other pair 314 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: of people. That's that's my take on them. What about 315 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: the sets of twins that have been stopped swapped. There's 316 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: like the story of you know, them being swapped at 317 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: birth and then rediscovering the right or adopted right. Yes, now, 318 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: I wrote about that in my sixth book, Accidental Brothers. 319 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: Those Colombian twins, and this was an amazing situation of 320 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: two identical male pairs born a day apart, one in 321 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: the lively capital city of Bogota, Colombia and the other 322 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: in a little old village with no running water and 323 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: the three walled house up in the north. And one 324 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: of the little boys up north was so sick, so 325 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: we had to come down to the better hospital in Bogata, 326 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: and he was there for a week, And while he 327 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: was there, he was accidentally switched with one of the 328 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: other twins, so the wrong baby was brought back and 329 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: the wrong baby stayed in Bogata. So they grew up 330 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: as two sets of unrelated brothers, thinking they were fraternal twins. 331 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: And then it came to light when they were twenty five, 332 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: when the boys up north moved to Bogata to work, 333 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: and somebody confused somebody for the other, and eventually the 334 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: truth came out. But as I always remember, one of 335 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: the twins saying to me, I went on the computer 336 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: and I saw myself in clothes I didn't own, and 337 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: a place I've never been, And next to me was 338 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: my fraternal twin brother, wearing clothes he doesn't own, in 339 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: a place he's never been. And he said he just 340 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: freaked out so when I heard this story, I knew 341 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: I was going to Bogata. I was on the next 342 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: literally and went twice to Columbia to study them. It 343 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: was an amazing case. But I'll tell you, twins are 344 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: such amazing cases. You know. The book I just did, 345 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: Deliberately Divided, I mean that, I think is a very 346 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: sad commentary on people who manipulate the lives of others 347 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: and don't allow twinship to be an important, celebrated relationship, 348 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: which it is. How so expand on that though, how 349 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: is it not celebrated and how is that sort of curtailed? Well, no, 350 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: twin relationships are very highly valued. They are. And so 351 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: what these investigators did in my book Deliberately Divided, was 352 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: that they were at an adoption agency, the Lewis Wise 353 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Adoption Agency, and young onwed mothers in the sixties would 354 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: come and they would give up their babies for adoption, 355 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: and the agency consultant felt that twins would better off 356 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: growing up apart. She claimed the development the literature just that. 357 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: But there was no such development the literature I've looked. 358 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: And so they were adopted into different families and the 359 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: parents were never told that they were raising part of 360 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: a twin. So the twins never knew, the families never knew. 361 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: But these children were tracked secretly for twelve years. The 362 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: triplets were part of that study, as were see the triples, 363 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: and then four other sets of identical twins, so a 364 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: total of eleven children. Now when I say secretly tracked, 365 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: the parents were told that the children were in a 366 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: developmental study of adoption, but they were never told the 367 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: true purpose, which was a nature nurture study using identical 368 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: twins separated at girth. The agency also separated a number 369 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: of sets of fraternal twins, and it's unclear why they did, 370 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: because you know, these twins don't go through that differentiation 371 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: process the way identicals do. But they were kept apart 372 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: and they weren't studied, which also was very bad science 373 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: because you need the fraternal twin control, so that was 374 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: a problem. But anyway, they this all came to like, 375 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, when the triplets met, you know, you saw 376 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: that wonderful re enactment of free identical strangers, and then 377 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: more pairs began to surface, and that's what happened. Unlike 378 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: a scale of one to ten, right, how much how 379 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: excited is a twin to actually meet their other twin 380 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: or do you find their trepidation? God, damn, Like that's 381 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: like how you would be, Oh yeah, like I don't 382 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: have too many problems in my life. I don't need 383 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: the other one. It's unlikely or a twins believe me. 384 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: So I would say on a scale of one to ten, Kate, 385 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: it's probably a ten in terms of the excitement. But 386 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: is there trepidation? Of course there is because you worry 387 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: is he or she going to be better looking than me, 388 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: or jealous of me or want something. But what some 389 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: of these twins said was that the two I'll tell 390 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: you one example, Melanie and Ellen. So Melanie and Ellen 391 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,239 Speaker 1: met in their late twenties, and both of them were 392 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: very shy and reserved, and they both dropped that to 393 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: college after a semester, and they realized that had they 394 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: been together, they probably could have withstood the pressure of college. 395 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: Together they would have been a support system. So these 396 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: twins were denied this wonderful relationship growing up together, and 397 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: those two have had some bumps along the way. The 398 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: triples of course did as well. You know, when Bobby 399 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: walked away from the restaurant, that was difficult and leaving 400 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: Eddie and David there to manage the restaurant alone. That 401 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: was a big blow to Eddie. And then there were 402 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: other pairs where it's a wonderful fraternal pair Alison and 403 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: Michelle who got along just beautifully, and then sadly, Michelle 404 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: died just last June, so they only had less than 405 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: three years together. And it was a wonderful two and 406 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: a half years that they had. But you know, to've 407 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: been denied this all your life and then to have 408 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: it and to lose it again, it was just so 409 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: selfish and so unthinking. And these were child development experts 410 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: who are doing this, they should have known better. Blind 411 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: scientific ambition. They were hoping, they were hoping that they 412 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: were hoping to settle the nature nurture question for good, 413 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: and that's what work rove. But about that, actually, when 414 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: you are not who not not twins who have been separated, 415 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: identical twins especially, but when you do have that kind 416 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: of a trauma in your life where one of them 417 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: might might pass unexpectedly, I mean it's got to be 418 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, just double the pain in the sense there's 419 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: a part of you that is diet it has gone. 420 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: It's devastating. You know, at the University of Minnesota, when 421 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: we studied twins, we had this pair of identical firemen. 422 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: They met when they were in their thirties, both six 423 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: foot four, got along absolutely perfectly, beer drinking, you know, 424 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 1: love to eat, a place called Luigi's. Oh, they were 425 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: just exactly the same. And then one of them passed 426 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: away just Saturday of last week. I think it was 427 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: at the age of sixty seven. And their brothers have 428 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: been estranged for various reasons. But the one who survived 429 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: posted a note on Facebook and said, for sixty seven 430 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: years there were two of me walking around and now 431 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: there's only one rest in peace. So even though there 432 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: was an estrangement, there was some kind of an attachment 433 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: and a feeling and an emotional involvement that ran very deeply. 434 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, I have a study actually of nearly eight 435 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: hundred twins whose twins have passed away, and I can 436 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: tell you it is just devastating for them, absolutely devastating, 437 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: they think, even more so than I mean, it's hard 438 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: to quantify that, but say it must be. But it's 439 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: hard to quantify that. But even more so than sort 440 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: of a regular sort of sibling couple. I guess I'll 441 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: tell you how I quantify it. So what I do 442 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: is I have them rape the grief intensity for the 443 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: twin and rate the grief intensity for other people who've 444 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: died in their lifetime like a brother, a mother, a father, 445 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: and aunt uncle, and the twin usually comes out ahead 446 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: regardless of identical or fraternal, but usually very high with identicals. 447 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: But see, they have a different starting point for people 448 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: who are not twins. It could be that a mother 449 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: or father is more important than a sibling, you know, 450 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. The twins have this very 451 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: very high point that they're beginning from. So I think 452 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: that's the difference. It makes sense. I mean, you know 453 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: it no matter what, like you, it's not a matter 454 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: of love. It's literally almost like a it's I mean, 455 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: like imagine you had looked at yourself every day when 456 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: you like facetimed your sister or your brother, and it 457 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: was like that was your bro, like like it was you. 458 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: It's gotta be so interesting though, so weird, because I 459 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: think you and I would look at each other and 460 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: be like, well if if you were I was a girl, 461 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: and we were like, well we look the same. But 462 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: that novelty goes away quickly, I would think, or you're 463 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: born maybe with even out the novelty of that. That 464 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: was really fascinating. Or are you like you look great? 465 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: Like I guess I look great because you look great. 466 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: Let me con that that up. First of all, identical 467 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: twins often don't think they look alike, which I find extraordinary. 468 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: I don't know how they can't think that. But the 469 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: other thing that I noticed that was so amazing is 470 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: that in Minnesota, sometimes the twins would be a different weight. 471 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: So there was one pair of very attractive women. Yeah, 472 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: so very attractive, but one was ten pounds heavier than 473 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: the other, and the one who was slimmer looked at 474 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: her heavier sister and said, I mean, she looks great. 475 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: And I'm always worried about my weight, and even ten 476 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: pounds heavier, I look fine. So twins are the unique 477 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: position of seeing themselves in ways that we never can. 478 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: We can look at it a mirror, but we can't 479 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: see ourselves as a person in three D moving around 480 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,239 Speaker 1: in space, so we never really know what we look like. 481 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: It's impossible. Only twins can. That's so wild, It's true, 482 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: because it's like sometimes I'll it's like you've a skewed 483 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: way of listening to your voice, hearing your voice. You 484 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: hear it and then you actually hear it back and 485 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: you're like, I don't sound anything like I think I sound. 486 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: Same thing with your face, you like look, You're like, yeah, 487 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: I look I look good. Then like someone takes a 488 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: video and you're like, oh, I'm like so like from 489 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: a different perspective, like I'm not seeing myself like that. 490 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: But if you actually had an identical twin, you would 491 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: you you probably judge yourself harsh more harshly. You might. 492 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,239 Speaker 1: You might, yeah, I'd be like do I look like 493 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: I think you might? Except in this case, she thought 494 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: her look great. So I'm always really intrigued by Like, 495 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,719 Speaker 1: I've heard stories that twins have had the same dreams. 496 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard stories like that? Yes, I sure have. 497 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: And it's not surprising to me at all because they 498 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,479 Speaker 1: go through many of the same experiences together. They had 499 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: similar thoughts, similar thought processes, So it's not surprising to 500 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: me at all. I don't I don't think that one 501 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: sends her dreams to the other one's head. I don't 502 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: think that at all. But I do think that because 503 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: they interpret the world in similar ways and think a 504 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: lot about things in the same ways. I mean, these 505 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: twins raised apart, both in deliberately divided and the ones 506 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: that I staid in Minnesota. I'm always amazed when I 507 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: hear these similar kinds of reflections that both were shy, 508 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: or both were outgoing, Y're both worried about this or that. 509 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really amazing, actually, And when you look 510 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: at their homes, there's a lot of similarity. You know, 511 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: this is something that I think people will be interested 512 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: in if you think about how your homes are decorated. 513 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: You know, you often think that's just a purely environmental thing, 514 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: but actually home is a reflection of you. You choose 515 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: to put this there, you choose to put that there, 516 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: or the color scheme. So it's not that it's just 517 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: the house happens to be there. You've designed it a 518 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: certain sort of a way, and so there's really a 519 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: genetic influence on environmental factors. I think that's something people 520 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: don't often think about. I mean, how often do you 521 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: see twins And I guess we're just talking about identic 522 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: so much because there's such a genetic connection there. But 523 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: how often do you see identical twins where one is 524 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: like a buttoned up goody two shoes and the other 525 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: one is like, you know, out there, like doing coke 526 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: and raging and athing like ah, you know. I mean, 527 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: how often do you see that discrepancy? You see it? 528 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: You see it very rarely. You see it, but it's rare. 529 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: I knew a pair of twins where one was an ordinary, 530 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: normal housewife, no big deal, and it's just there was 531 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: a murderer. Are you going whoa? Yeah? I mean, these 532 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: things happen, and maybe it was something that happened prenatally 533 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: to affect the brain. You know, our environments and not 534 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: just what we experience in life, but a lot goes 535 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: on in the womb. With identical twins. There can be 536 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: shared circulations and fetal crowding and all kinds of things. 537 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: Different brain cells turn on or turn off, so there 538 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: can be different sorts of things we have. I've studied 539 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 1: several sets of identical twin women where one at an 540 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: early age felt like she was trapped in a man's 541 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: body and eventually did sex reassignment surgery. Those are amazing cases, 542 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: absolutely amazing cases. I was on the Oprah Winfrey Show 543 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: once with two sets of twins like that, And I 544 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: have to say, in all the years I've seen Oprah, 545 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: I never saw her speechless until this one day, and 546 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: it was just really, really difficulty. Ollie. We love our Sokara. 547 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: We love it, always have. 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This is a natural, authentic fit to Kate 572 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: and Oliver Hudson, There's no doubt about it. So we 573 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: get excited to promote this brand because essentially we're promoting 574 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: ourselves because we are eighty percent corse Light for cores 575 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: Ollie question, are you a cores in a bottle or 576 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: are you cores in the can? Cores in the can? 577 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: Without even the thought yes, why yeah, I just love 578 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: the can. I love the silver bullet, you know what 579 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah. Part of drinking a cores light is 580 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: the esthetic of it. You know, you got to feel good. 581 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: And when I have that silver can with the cold ice, 582 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: blue Mountains when I know it's freezing to death, It's 583 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: when I feel my best. So when I need to 584 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: take a second from myself and Kate I can speaking 585 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: for hers, well, I'm gonna say we so when we 586 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: need to take a second for ourselves, we reach for 587 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: the beer that is made to chill. To get the 588 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: course light. Get course light delivered straight to your door 589 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: with Drizzly or instacart by going to coreslight dot com, 590 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: Slash Hudson Celebrate Responsible Court Proun Company, Golden Colorado. You know, 591 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: it's also interesting are male female twins, because we find 592 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: that the females often tend to be more outgoing, more assertive, 593 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: somewhat masculinized, perhaps by exposure to the male hormone and neutero. 594 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: And you know, we've known for years that females tend 595 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: to be a little maternal towards their twin brothers, you know, 596 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: tend to boss them around. Partly it's because female's mature 597 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: ahead of males anyway, intellectually, physically, socially. And yet you know, 598 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: you can't discount the hormonal influence. But the problem is 599 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: it's confounded because you know, when you're a male female 600 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 1: twin you're growing up together, but you also had the 601 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: hormonal exposure, so you've got to figure out a way 602 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: to separate those out. Hmmm, that's really interesting. Yeah, how's 603 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: your relationship with your twin? Well, my relationship with my 604 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: twin is great. Now we're adults and we're pretty close, 605 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: But growing up, we were like ships passing in the night. 606 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: We had separate testsive friends, even though we had shared 607 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: a bedroom, had same parents and experiences, but we went 608 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: to different classes, which was better for us too, and 609 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: then even different schools beginning in the seventh grade. Wow, 610 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: And we discussed things and we know that well, we're 611 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: pretty sure. We know that if we'd met socially, we 612 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: never would have been friends because we're so different. But 613 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: because we're siblings, you know, we have a family history. 614 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: We know each other so well, and I love her 615 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: and I trust her. You know, when my parents passed away, 616 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: she took care of all the bank stuff, and I never, 617 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: once for a second ever thought she'd cheat me. I mean, 618 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: I know siblings worry about those things. I never did. 619 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: Full wonderful person, but we're just we're just not We 620 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: don't have that typical, identical training to talk to you about. Don't. No, 621 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: you don't. Genes reshuffle in every generation. Explain this to me. 622 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: What does that mean? You know? Okay, yeah, that's a 623 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: good question. So all of us have forty six genes, 624 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: forty six well, forty six chromosomes, and we have tons 625 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: and tons and tons of genes yet so it's twenty 626 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: three pairs. I get one pair from mom and one 627 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: pair from Dad. When I reproduce, the fertilize the egg 628 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: that I will contribute has only one copy of each 629 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: of my of each of the chromosomes. So you know, 630 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: it could be I get this chromosome from Mom, and 631 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: this chromosome from Dad goes into the fertilized egg. So 632 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: it's a completely unique constellation of genes and chromosomes. And 633 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: so when it when it merges with the sperm, and 634 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,240 Speaker 1: the sperm goes through that same process, it's all different. 635 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: It's all different. You know, if we all reproduced ourselves, 636 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: I mean to be no variability in the population, we 637 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: probably all die. But you need that genetic variability to 638 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: keep the human species going. But Howard twins from a 639 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: genetic standpoint, Howard twins twins hereditary, meaning oh yeah, how 640 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: does that work. If you have twins in your family, 641 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: are more likely to have it. Yeah, it's a great 642 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: question and you have to answer it differently for identicals 643 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: and fraternals. Now, let's talk about fraternal first because they're easy. 644 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: So fraternal twins, it's probably a hormonal underpinning, mostly in 645 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: the part of the mother, although we can't discount a 646 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: contribution from the father. It could be that something the 647 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: father transmits alters the intriutor and landscape and another egg 648 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: is released. But we do know that these factors affect 649 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: fraternal twinning. It runs in your family. It tends to 650 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: come from the mother's side. Women who have fraternal twins 651 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: tend to be taller and heavier on average, and they 652 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: tend to be of African descent. There's a higher proportion 653 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: fraternal twins in African populations. Now. With identical twinning, it 654 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: was thought for years that this was totally random, that 655 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: anybody could have them, and you know, it didn't matter 656 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 1: that you had them in your family. But now new 657 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: studies have shown that there may be a subset of 658 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: families or identical twinning is genetically passed on. When I 659 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: was in Brazil, there was a family down in the south. 660 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: There's many families in the very southern tip of Brazil 661 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: and they have a very high concentration of identical twins. 662 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,479 Speaker 1: In fact, in one family they went five generations. There's 663 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: a pocket of many identical twins in India and another 664 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: pocket in Iran. So they're getting close to finding a 665 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: certain gene that maybe is conducive to splitting of the 666 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: fertilized egg. Now, think about this is an amazing case 667 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: I studied in Canada's a mother who conceived fraternal twins naturally, 668 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: so she had two fertilized eggs in there, but they 669 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: both split. So she had two sets of identical twin 670 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: boys whoa and they were completely different, you know, between pairs, 671 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: but within pairs exactly the same in one in one 672 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,240 Speaker 1: in one pregnancy. I mean, yes, it one pregnancy, because 673 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: each of her fraternal twin embryos divided, right, so she 674 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: had four she had quadruplets. But you see two looked alike, 675 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: but two looked alike and two looked alike. You got 676 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: it exactly. And then right, so there's there's four kids 677 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: and two were identical, two are identical. What would you 678 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: do if that happened? Could you imagine I'd run, like, 679 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, showing up to the doctor's office and being like, oh, 680 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: I'm pregnant, you know what, like four like a like 681 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: a like a litter. And first they first I thought 682 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: it was just three, but one baby was hiding, so 683 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: it was four. So I mean, this mother welcomed the 684 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean you could just laugh and what can you 685 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: do about it? Nothing you can do. But the point 686 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: is that it makes you think are identical and fraternal 687 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: twinning processes are they independent? I mean, here's the mother 688 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: who had fraternals and identicals, so it may be that 689 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: these things kind of come together in some families. We 690 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: also know that older mothers have a higher chance of 691 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,399 Speaker 1: having fraternal twins, so it begins about age thirty five. 692 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: And you could think about it as kind of a 693 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: reproductive mistake, because the human womb is designed to carry 694 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: one baby. But if you think about it in an 695 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,280 Speaker 1: evolutionary term, it's kind of a cost benefit analysis because 696 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: the older you are when you have a baby, the 697 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: higher the chance of a defective baby right down syndrome 698 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: is higher among older women. But it's also that, hey, 699 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: it's my last chance to get my jeens out there, 700 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: so let's try for two. Right, Well, that's a good question. Actually, 701 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: let's go back to early man. I mean, have you 702 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 1: gone that far back? Twins? You know, back when? Yeah, 703 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: we were just becoming human. In fact, God, I just 704 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: looked at this article in an archaeological review and they 705 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: found these these twin mummies that were buried together. I 706 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: can't remember how far back it goes, but there was 707 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: definitely twinning, you know, throughout human history. Definitely was. It 708 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: could be that, of course, the twiny frequency has increased 709 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: because we know more more about how to manage multiple 710 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: pregnancies and things of that sort. With IVF, it's it's 711 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: shooting way up. But nevertheless, there were twins all throughout 712 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: human history. Yeah. Absolutely. What about identical twins marrying? Identity? Oh, 713 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: one of my favorite subjects. I have studied that, I 714 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: definitely have. What have you studied? Well, I feel like 715 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: you've studied me and I don't even know it. You 716 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: never know, you never know. Yeah, let's tell the identical marriage. 717 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,439 Speaker 1: I want to know. So when identical twins married, it's 718 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,919 Speaker 1: it's extraordinary because their children are not just first cause, 719 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: but they're full siblings genetically speaking, because the parents are 720 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: all genetically interchangeable, so a lot of them, a lot 721 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: of twins don't want to marry just non twins because 722 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: non twins often don't understand the special relationship. So they think, 723 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: keep it in the family. It's all married twins. And 724 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: they go to those Twinsburg festivals in Twinsburg, Ohio, every August, 725 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: and sometimes they go there to meet twins. So these 726 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: one twins I know, Mark and Craig, they went and 727 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: they happened to meet Diane and Darlene, and Mark, rather 728 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: Craig claims that he could only marry Diane, and Darlene 729 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: was not the least but attractive to him, and the 730 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: same went the other way. And I find that extraordinary 731 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,439 Speaker 1: because I often thought, well, it doesn't matter who you married, 732 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,760 Speaker 1: it's all the same. But I'm learning that very subtle 733 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: differences in behavior or appearance have huge consequences for who 734 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: you marry, absolutely huge. Some women I know who married 735 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: one identical twin will say I love my husband, but 736 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: I mean I like my brother in law, but I 737 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: could never marry him, And and that is so interesting. 738 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: I think if we study twins, we could learn a 739 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: lot about what causes made attraction, why you are attracted 740 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: to one person and not to another. These are fascinating. 741 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: Five has that study been you know, sort of expanded on, 742 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: because amazing because to have like a sibling who's identical 743 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: and you're like, I am not like you is. Yeah, 744 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: it's it's really fascinating. And you know, there was a 745 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 1: one family I found where the two moms had given 746 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: birth on the same day, so the children really really 747 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: like fraternal twins even though they weren't, but they were 748 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: kind of like equivalents. So you know, just by doing 749 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: everything naturally, if twins just marry and have kids, it 750 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: creates all kinds of fascinating research situations that we can 751 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: take advantage of. I love it, no wonder, I'm now 752 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: I'm understanding why you have dedicated your life to this. 753 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,760 Speaker 1: I mean it is extremely fascinating and can be really 754 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: eye opening to not just twins, but having studied twins, 755 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: and it's just about every humanity and the way we tract. 756 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: That is the whole point that you can study twins 757 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: at two levels. You can study twins for twins, you know, 758 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 1: should you set right them in schools, she dress them alike? 759 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: This is but twins are really a research model. For 760 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: understanding why we all are the way that we are. 761 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: It's implications for how we behave. I feel like, what 762 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: if there was a set of identical twins that were 763 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: together that just decided we all love each other, We're 764 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: just gonna we're just married, or like like you know, 765 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 1: because if you think about it, I mean, then there's 766 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: the opposite, which is like if you fall in love 767 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: with it. This is maybe another interesting con like if 768 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 1: you fall off, how could you not not be in 769 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: love with the other one right the stead they're like twingers. Yeah, well, 770 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,760 Speaker 1: I know this conversation can really go to new depths. 771 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure, but yeah, I would love to do that study. 772 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: There's so many studies I still want to do. I 773 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: still want to do the study I just mentioned to 774 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 1: look at made attraction in identical twins who marry identical twins. 775 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: I would love to study the different life experiences of 776 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,399 Speaker 1: biracial twins, you know, one who may look more black 777 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: and one who may look more white in a basically 778 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: white community or a black community. I would love to 779 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: study those. And I think there's enough cases to do 780 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: that I haven't studied. I just completed on the caring 781 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: and investment of identical twins ants toward their nieces and 782 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:49,320 Speaker 1: nephews because they're essentially at their own genetic children. Right, Okay, 783 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: So identical twins marry and have kids, they marry ordinary people, 784 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: not twins. The kids are first cousins, right, do that? Okay? 785 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: But twin A is the genetic aunt or uncle to 786 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: her nieces and nephews, right, the aunt or uncle, but 787 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: she's also the genetic mother or father because she and 788 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: her sister or brother genetically interchanging with Oh right, okay, 789 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,359 Speaker 1: that's so interesting. Okay, that would be like if we 790 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: were identical twins, dad, or you would share a different 791 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,320 Speaker 1: kind of genetic relationship with writer than you do. Yes, exactly. 792 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,840 Speaker 1: And I wow, that's trippy, isn't that? That's really interesting 793 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,760 Speaker 1: because I'm just putting myself there, right, I can actually 794 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: relate to that, even though that's like if I shared 795 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: that with you, how I would feel even more intensely 796 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,279 Speaker 1: about your kids. But that's what the research showed that 797 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: the identical twin aunts and uncles were more closely involved 798 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: and caring and thought the kid was like their kid 799 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: as opposed to the fraternal ones. And so what I 800 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: want to do now, wow, if I have the time, 801 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: because I'm working on two new books at the moment, 802 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: but when I have time, I want to get it 803 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: from the kids perspective, How do you feel towards your 804 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: mother and your or your father and your aunt or uncle, 805 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: if they're twins, and if you're if the mother and 806 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: father are identical, versus if they're fraternal. So I want 807 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: to go not from parent to kid, but I want 808 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 1: to go from kid to parent. I think that'd be 809 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,360 Speaker 1: a fascinating There's so many questions, I mean, even in 810 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: like if they're doing the same job and one is 811 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 1: advancing and the other one is not, you know, but 812 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: they're the exact same person. Or what about psychological act 813 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: What if like Liam Hemsworth had an identical twin and 814 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: they were both actors, but Liam like became the Marvel 815 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: filthor guy and the other one's like what happened? Well, 816 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: look at look at Rommy, look at Roy and that's right. 817 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: And his brother is an education I think he's not 818 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,240 Speaker 1: an actress. He's an education yes, but he does. And 819 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: yet they seem perfectly happy doing project your own feet 820 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: don't care into it. I don't care if I do 821 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,240 Speaker 1: what was his What if his twin was an actor 822 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: and he was like kind of not doing it, well, 823 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: that would suck for the twin, I guess it. Sorry 824 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: twins feel that way, but you know, I think I 825 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: felt like it wouldn't be dissimilar. It wouldn't be or 826 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,759 Speaker 1: they could like they could like be like, dude, can 827 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: you take you could like they could work as a team. 828 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,359 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a lot of that twins, a lot 829 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: of team work. Yeah, like the lots of twins. Do 830 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,719 Speaker 1: you know that where you're sort of like, I'm just 831 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,399 Speaker 1: fucking exhausted, like will you take over next week? Under filming? Perfect? Yeah, Well, 832 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: you know the former mayor of El Paso, uh uh, 833 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:49,799 Speaker 1: the two Mexican identical twin politicians, uh, Julian Castro and 834 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,680 Speaker 1: his brother Hobby Julian and I can't the Castro brothers. 835 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 1: When was the mayor of El Paso for a while 836 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: and one day he couldn't be at a parade. It 837 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: was brother substituted. Of course, they got a lot, they 838 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: got a lot of gouff when they found out. That's 839 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 1: really funny. Yeah, course, I personally probably would do that 840 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,239 Speaker 1: all the time. Both an advantage what is the statistic. 841 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,840 Speaker 1: The twinning rates in US rose drastically from eighteen point 842 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: nine per thousand births in nineteen eighty to thirty three 843 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,960 Speaker 1: point three twins per thousand births and two thousand seventeen, 844 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,000 Speaker 1: and this is the IVY and this is due to IVF. 845 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,759 Speaker 1: It's largely due to IVF. It's also largely due to 846 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,000 Speaker 1: the fact that women are delaying the child bearing years 847 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,960 Speaker 1: to have education and careers, and so the older mothers 848 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: have a higher chance of paternal twining. But it's also 849 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,279 Speaker 1: somewhat due to better hospitalization practices and the fact that 850 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: when you do IVF, it also increases the rate of 851 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: identical twinning, not as dramatically, but the way it works 852 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 1: is that when you're micro manipulating an egg in the laboratory, 853 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: you know you're doing things to it, and you increase 854 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: the chance of splitting. So there's a slight but consistent 855 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: increase of identical twenty. Now, those are the most those 856 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 1: are the penultimate stats you just cited, Kate. The more 857 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,759 Speaker 1: recent one that came after that shows a slight decline 858 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 1: in the paternal twenty to maybe one and thirty two 859 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,279 Speaker 1: like that, And that's because in the past, doctors used 860 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,279 Speaker 1: to implant multiple embryos so that at least one would take, 861 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: but now they're better able to implant one to guarantee success. Ollie, 862 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: do you identify as crypto curious? Yeah, of course, I yeah, 863 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,040 Speaker 1: I do. I do. I'm crypto curious without a doubt, 864 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: without a doubt, I think about entering the world of 865 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 1: crypto all the time. I may or may not have 866 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: some of my funds wrapped up in some cryptocurrency, and 867 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: I do use coinbase great well. Coinbase makes learning to 868 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: buy and sell simple. It's super easy to buy and 869 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,920 Speaker 1: sell and use, and they teach you. There's learning resources, 870 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: there's global app they give you like a really trust 871 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,440 Speaker 1: and easy to use platform to buy, sell, and spend cryptocurrency. 872 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,399 Speaker 1: So it's a great place to learn. And I say 873 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: this because I think it's really important that you know 874 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,520 Speaker 1: try it. You know you if you want, you know, 875 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,920 Speaker 1: use a little bit. You don't have to go crazy, 876 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: but to start to understand the language. Coin Base is 877 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 1: a great It's a great place to start, and they 878 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,240 Speaker 1: really support the most popular digital currencies on the market, 879 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: and then they make them very accessible to everyone. So 880 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 1: it's an amazing place to go explore this world. For 881 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,759 Speaker 1: those of you who are already into it, you know 882 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: what we're talking about, man, that's right. So for a 883 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,520 Speaker 1: limited time, new users can get ten dollars in free 884 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,280 Speaker 1: bitcoin when you sign up today at coinbase dot com 885 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 1: slash sibling. So sign up at coinbase dot com slash 886 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 1: sibling for ten dollars and free bitcoin. This offer is 887 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: for a limited time only, so be sure to sign 888 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:24,760 Speaker 1: up today. That's coinbase dot com slash sibling. I actually 889 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,319 Speaker 1: study a kind of kinship that's seat of interesting. I 890 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,280 Speaker 1: call them virtual twins. And virtual twins are same age, 891 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: unrelated children raised together. So maybe an infertile couple, they 892 00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,280 Speaker 1: adopt to children at the same time who were completely 893 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,560 Speaker 1: unrelated but at the same age, so they grew up 894 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 1: very twinly. And sometimes sometimes what happens is that the 895 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: mother does get pregnant, but meanwhile she's starting the adoption process, 896 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,480 Speaker 1: so she's got a biological kid and an adopted one. 897 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,839 Speaker 1: But they're unrelated, and they grow up like twins, gonna 898 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,160 Speaker 1: be the same age, and they're very fascinating. They're nothing 899 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,000 Speaker 1: alike despite growing up so close together. And what about 900 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,399 Speaker 1: what about the sort of Irish twin. You know where 901 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: you're under eleven months, you know where you have the baby, 902 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 1: and then you get pregnant. Right. I have a friend 903 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:13,799 Speaker 1: who has had that happen to her, And does that 904 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,000 Speaker 1: do they kind of grow up more like twins? Some 905 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,960 Speaker 1: probably do and some probably don't. Right, what about DNA? 906 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:21,799 Speaker 1: What if? What if? What if I have a twin 907 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: and I kill somebody and i'm and my other twin 908 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: gets accused of the crime. Well, that used to happen, 909 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,719 Speaker 1: but it doesn't now because of what we call epigenetic factors, 910 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,360 Speaker 1: which is a turning on and turning off of genes. 911 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,319 Speaker 1: And aside from that, we have these random what are 912 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,360 Speaker 1: called somatic mutations where a gene may change, and so 913 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: your set of epigenetic markers and gene changes might be 914 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,799 Speaker 1: different than your twins. So so now they could they 915 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: could find out, you know what it was. Here's an 916 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,399 Speaker 1: interesting one. So there's been a couple of cases I've 917 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: come across where both identical twins have to course with 918 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,400 Speaker 1: a woman and she gets pregnant. Who's the father? In 919 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 1: the old days, you couldn't tell, and judges couldn't even assign, 920 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,879 Speaker 1: you know, support, But now you can now you can. Wow, 921 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,680 Speaker 1: are there any are there any crazy murder sort of 922 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,799 Speaker 1: DNA twin identical? Two? Well, there's a book I have 923 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,360 Speaker 1: about twins who were just both murderers, like the Cray 924 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,879 Speaker 1: twins you know from England, And I mean there are 925 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 1: twins who work like that together and do terrible things. 926 00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:37,440 Speaker 1: But you know, it's sensational and it's very atypical, very typical. Yeah, well, 927 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,480 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about your book, you know, 928 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,880 Speaker 1: deliberately Divided. So what made that? You know you this 929 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:48,400 Speaker 1: is your seventh book, right, yes, correct, well you're yeah, 930 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 1: so what so? So why was this a natural progression 931 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 1: for your seventh book? Okay, so Three Identical Strangers came 932 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 1: out the movie in twenty eighteen. In twenty seventeen, there 933 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,840 Speaker 1: was a movie called The Twinning Reaction, made by a 934 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 1: much smaller independent filmmaker, which didn't get the attention it deserved, 935 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,799 Speaker 1: but it was terrific. Anyway. I'd always known about this 936 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: particular story. I learned about it in the eighties when 937 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: I was first of Minnesota, and I was rather intrigued 938 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 1: by it, but also horrified by it because it was 939 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: a study of I mean, I would never separate twins 940 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: that my job was to bring twins together, not to 941 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: separate them, so I always kept track of that. I 942 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,319 Speaker 1: actually met Peter Nubauer, the main investigator. I met him once, 943 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,799 Speaker 1: and I spoke to many many people. Anyway, when the 944 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,239 Speaker 1: movie came out, the woman who had done the independent 945 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,360 Speaker 1: film said to me, look, I have mountains of material. 946 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,520 Speaker 1: You should write the book. And I had a stabbatical 947 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,120 Speaker 1: coming up. So I thought about it, and I knew 948 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,040 Speaker 1: that it was going to be a difficult book to write. 949 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: I knew because it was going to be controversial, and 950 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,600 Speaker 1: I knew that the investigators had a lot of defenders, 951 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,480 Speaker 1: and so I thought a lot about it, and then 952 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,600 Speaker 1: I thought, I'm going to do it because it has 953 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,640 Speaker 1: to be done. It's a blemish in the history of 954 00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,840 Speaker 1: twin studies, and I'm going to have to do it. Also, 955 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,680 Speaker 1: the data records they had were sealed completely at Eale 956 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,280 Speaker 1: University's archives, and the twins are having a really difficult 957 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,359 Speaker 1: time getting them. So I thought, if I did this book, 958 00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 1: maybe that would help open up the records. So I 959 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,840 Speaker 1: decided to do it, and for all those reasons, because 960 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,880 Speaker 1: to help the twins, to call attention to this, to 961 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,680 Speaker 1: really let people know what went on behind that film. 962 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 1: There was a lot more that you can then you 963 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,279 Speaker 1: can put into a ninety minute film. So that was 964 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,440 Speaker 1: the reason I did it. And you know, with my 965 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,880 Speaker 1: background and twins Raised apart, my background in twinship anyway, 966 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,600 Speaker 1: that's what I did. And I not only went through 967 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,400 Speaker 1: who was separated and why, and went through the lives 968 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,200 Speaker 1: of the investigators, the lives of the families. I looked 969 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,440 Speaker 1: at the media's attempts. Sixty minutes tried many times to 970 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,279 Speaker 1: expose this and they never were successful. I looked at 971 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,040 Speaker 1: the fa involved in this and the failed attempts at publication, 972 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,879 Speaker 1: and then at the very end I saved that from 973 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:11,360 Speaker 1: my own unbiasedly unbiased. I went on the data, but 974 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,400 Speaker 1: my own views on this particular study. Now, can you 975 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 1: talk about the Jim twins For those who don't know, 976 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,080 Speaker 1: they were separated until they met when they were forty right, 977 00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,560 Speaker 1: thirty nine, thirty nine. The Jim twins were separated at 978 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,320 Speaker 1: birth and they were the first study to launch, the 979 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,760 Speaker 1: first pair of twins to launch the Minnesota Study of 980 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 1: Twins Raised Apart. So the Jim Twins were these two 981 00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,360 Speaker 1: gentlemen who grew up apart in Ohio, different cities forty 982 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,840 Speaker 1: miles apart or so, and each parent was told that 983 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,440 Speaker 1: the other one had a twin, but the twin had 984 00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,280 Speaker 1: died at birth. When one of the mothers went to 985 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,520 Speaker 1: the courthouse when her child was five, the cleric said 986 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,360 Speaker 1: to the mother, interesting, the other child is also named Jim, 987 00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,840 Speaker 1: and so she pursued it and realized that he was 988 00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,000 Speaker 1: still alive. When her son was older, she said, look, 989 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, you've got an identical twin out there. But 990 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 1: he wasn't ready to find him. And when he was 991 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: at the age of thirty nine, they met and their 992 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,560 Speaker 1: story was covered in papers around the world. They had 993 00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 1: so many similarities. They both used to scatter love letters 994 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,600 Speaker 1: around the house for their wives. They both bit their nails. 995 00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,640 Speaker 1: They both smoked salems. They both drove light blue Pontiacs. 996 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,720 Speaker 1: They both vacasioned in the same Florida's strip of Beach. 997 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,440 Speaker 1: They both married women named Betty, divorced them and married Linda. 998 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,800 Speaker 1: They both named their sons James Allen. They both had 999 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,000 Speaker 1: mixed headache syndrome that they described as someone banging your 1000 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,560 Speaker 1: head with a hammer. They both were woodworkers, and they 1001 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,760 Speaker 1: both were part time sheriffs and both worked part time 1002 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:48,120 Speaker 1: in McDonald's, So they had lots and lots of similarities, 1003 00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,960 Speaker 1: and so Professor Bishard, who was the director of the study, 1004 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 1: decided to bring them to the university, put them through 1005 00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,400 Speaker 1: an assessment battery, and published it. Maybe it's a case study. 1006 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,080 Speaker 1: I was not in Minnesota the time. I was still 1007 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,880 Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago getting my degree. Anyway, the 1008 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,959 Speaker 1: Jim twins attracted so much attention that other pairs began 1009 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,280 Speaker 1: to contact Minnesota, so that following year I went there 1010 00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,680 Speaker 1: as a post doc and worked exclusively on the study, 1011 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,880 Speaker 1: and more and more twins were coming to be studied. 1012 00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,640 Speaker 1: So we ended up with a total of one hundred 1013 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 1: and thirty seven pairs, eighty one identical and fifty six fraternal. 1014 00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,760 Speaker 1: I know the Jim twins. I knew them. Both Jim 1015 00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: twins have passed away, and I've been in touch with 1016 00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,120 Speaker 1: one of the wives from time to time. But they are, 1017 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, kind of the the quintessential rear deparved pair 1018 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,240 Speaker 1: of twins because they were so similar. They really were. 1019 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,480 Speaker 1: But that those examples, I mean that that's crazy from 1020 00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,720 Speaker 1: and so well scientifically, how are we I know, you've 1021 00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,520 Speaker 1: kind of touched on it. But from a scientific place, 1022 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,200 Speaker 1: how are we how are we squaring that? That's well, 1023 00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:00,000 Speaker 1: the mixed headache syndrome, you could understand something biological. But yeah, 1024 01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:05,960 Speaker 1: let's think about yeah crazy. I mean that names of 1025 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,320 Speaker 1: wives are rather difficult, and that could be just a 1026 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,480 Speaker 1: matter of chance. But maybe you're attracted to somebody with 1027 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,240 Speaker 1: a certain name now naming their sons James Allen. Obviously 1028 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,240 Speaker 1: that's the function of husband and wife. What you name 1029 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,760 Speaker 1: a child, but it could be that most twins, most 1030 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,680 Speaker 1: of them were traditional, so you name the firstborn son 1031 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,280 Speaker 1: after the father, and maybe Alan was the name they liked. 1032 01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,160 Speaker 1: It goes well with James. But see, what's beautiful about 1033 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,360 Speaker 1: rear to part twins is that it gives you new 1034 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,800 Speaker 1: ways of thinking about ordinary observations. You know, for example, 1035 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,400 Speaker 1: all of us have quirks. You know, sometimes you take 1036 01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,520 Speaker 1: a necklace and you twirl around your neck, or you 1037 01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,600 Speaker 1: do something with your head, or god knows what you do. 1038 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,280 Speaker 1: But we all do this thing, and we all assume 1039 01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:52,280 Speaker 1: these are just kind of random things, but maybe they're not. 1040 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,080 Speaker 1: You know, maybe we sit a certain way because we're 1041 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,840 Speaker 1: more comfortable that way, because our bodies are put together, 1042 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:00,000 Speaker 1: and if we had a twin, they'd be sitting exactly 1043 01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 1: the same way. And we see in un post photographs. 1044 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,120 Speaker 1: I have a bunch of these in my in one 1045 01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,520 Speaker 1: of my books, where the twins are just told to 1046 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,920 Speaker 1: stand and they stand the same way. They both slouch 1047 01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,880 Speaker 1: or they both hold their hands a certain way because 1048 01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:18,560 Speaker 1: they're comfortable. I just is there any other studies with 1049 01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:24,680 Speaker 1: animals that are similar? Yes? Are there? Are there identical 1050 01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:29,640 Speaker 1: twins in other specie like of course, and so I 1051 01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,480 Speaker 1: mean I know that there's but like, are there any 1052 01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:36,480 Speaker 1: studies done in like, you know, animals that have more 1053 01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:43,400 Speaker 1: the more similarities to humans. Well, the studies that have 1054 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,800 Speaker 1: there are studies that have been done using chimpanzees, but 1055 01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:50,600 Speaker 1: there are very very few chimpanzee twins. They don't they 1056 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,160 Speaker 1: don't do well. But there have been studies done with 1057 01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,760 Speaker 1: identical mice and they do find that, you know, the 1058 01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:01,240 Speaker 1: mice are similar, but certain environmental things and make them different. 1059 01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,600 Speaker 1: There was a very interesting study done on lambs. Now 1060 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:08,160 Speaker 1: these are fraternal twins, so to speak, they're not genetically 1061 01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,919 Speaker 1: the same. But this mom, this mother lamb gave birth 1062 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,040 Speaker 1: to fraternal twins and they took one lamb away and 1063 01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:19,280 Speaker 1: raised it somewhere else, and they find that the mother, 1064 01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:22,000 Speaker 1: you know, when she goes and she smells them and 1065 01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,760 Speaker 1: licks them. I mean she could identify her child. So 1066 01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,520 Speaker 1: to that degree, relative identification has been studied a lot 1067 01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:34,240 Speaker 1: in other animals Kpe. But in chimpanzees, they they twins 1068 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,760 Speaker 1: don't do well. No, they don't survive. They rarely survive. 1069 01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:40,040 Speaker 1: I have a in one of my my first book, 1070 01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,640 Speaker 1: I actually have a chart of all the champanzees that 1071 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,040 Speaker 1: did survive. Jane Goodall actually had a pair called guy 1072 01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:52,840 Speaker 1: Er and gimbal and they didn't survive. Interesting. Yeah, I 1073 01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,640 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm going to like, you know, alien types, 1074 01:02:55,640 --> 01:03:02,600 Speaker 1: stuff like clone. Yeah, what about cloned animal? Yes, well yeah, 1075 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,720 Speaker 1: cloned animals would be fabulous to study. The thing is 1076 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,000 Speaker 1: that you can. I mean, the clones are generically the same, 1077 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: but you'd have to make sure the conditions would be 1078 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,880 Speaker 1: the same. Now, I think human cloning is also a 1079 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,920 Speaker 1: fascinating topic, and I've thought a lot about that. Human 1080 01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:24,400 Speaker 1: reproductive cloning. I have no problem with it. Yeah, yeah, 1081 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,480 Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I'll tell you why, because think about it. 1082 01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,400 Speaker 1: Let's suppose we could do it. We can't and it's 1083 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,919 Speaker 1: not ethical. But suppose we could. Okay, most people would 1084 01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 1: not have children that way. Most people would still want 1085 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,520 Speaker 1: children the old fashioned way, so it would be like 1086 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,680 Speaker 1: a last ditch effort to have a biological child. Also, 1087 01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,600 Speaker 1: the child would come into the world at a different time, 1088 01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,360 Speaker 1: So if you had a certain talent, your child might 1089 01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,440 Speaker 1: have the predisposition, and maybe that talent is not valued 1090 01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,440 Speaker 1: in that particular generation, so it would not be, you know, 1091 01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 1: exactly the same. On the other hand, it could be 1092 01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,800 Speaker 1: that you have a certain understanding as a parent and 1093 01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,680 Speaker 1: to give your child more understanding than you know if 1094 01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,000 Speaker 1: you weren't a clone, so you could clone yourself and 1095 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,000 Speaker 1: raise them as your child. Yeah, you could. I mean, 1096 01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,600 Speaker 1: if we have the technology narcissistic to me, that just 1097 01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:24,600 Speaker 1: feels like insane. It could be. It could be, Yeah, 1098 01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it could be narcissistic to some degree. But 1099 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, in any new scientific technology, science moves forward 1100 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,520 Speaker 1: and we try to anticipate the problems it's going to raise. 1101 01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,720 Speaker 1: We can't anticipate everything. So it could be that let's 1102 01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,919 Speaker 1: suppose you're a Holocaust survivor and all your family's wiped out, 1103 01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,479 Speaker 1: that you want to carry on the family line. Maybe 1104 01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 1: human cloning is the only route available to you. So 1105 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,680 Speaker 1: that's you know, but again, you know, it's interesting that 1106 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,400 Speaker 1: that women who are sixty five seventy they could have 1107 01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,680 Speaker 1: children if they wanted, just take eggs and implant them 1108 01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,400 Speaker 1: in the uters. But you don't see that happening because 1109 01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:05,960 Speaker 1: women who are sixty five mint seven, they don't want 1110 01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:07,760 Speaker 1: to be moms. Yeah, you're like, I don't want to 1111 01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,400 Speaker 1: I don't even want to carry Yeah yeah, yeah right. 1112 01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,360 Speaker 1: So my point is that even if we could do 1113 01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,240 Speaker 1: human reproductive cloning, not if it was going to race 1114 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,360 Speaker 1: out to do it, I think very few people would. 1115 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:24,800 Speaker 1: That's my kin. Here we go eg for the expert. 1116 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:31,000 Speaker 1: Let's say you decide to take out your eggs, pick 1117 01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,200 Speaker 1: what you want, get all the genetic testing done, put 1118 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:39,920 Speaker 1: that egg back into your body. Can that egg split 1119 01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:45,960 Speaker 1: or is it all right? So, so, even though it's 1120 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:51,080 Speaker 1: already been fertilized outside of the womb, if it's replanted 1121 01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,480 Speaker 1: into the womb, can it split and become an identical Yeah? 1122 01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,200 Speaker 1: I think it could. And the reason I say that 1123 01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,880 Speaker 1: is because the window of opportunity for dividing is the 1124 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:04,360 Speaker 1: fourteenth day, and so most embryos are planted implanted between 1125 01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,680 Speaker 1: three and five days. There's a whole other week. I 1126 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,440 Speaker 1: wonder if you could split outside put in I can 1127 01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,560 Speaker 1: give you, yeah, I can, well, but that would be 1128 01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,000 Speaker 1: aful non ethical. But here here's an example. You you've 1129 01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,680 Speaker 1: heard of Optimom, right, yeah, yeah, okay, So Optimom gave 1130 01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:23,360 Speaker 1: birth to what fourteen children? Right? I think it was, 1131 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:30,400 Speaker 1: but she only had it was not fourteen embryos implanted. 1132 01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,320 Speaker 1: It was not, but I think it was ten. But 1133 01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,680 Speaker 1: two of those split, so she had identical two SUPs 1134 01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,080 Speaker 1: of identical twins when the babies were born. Yeah, so 1135 01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,240 Speaker 1: that's answered your question, right, okay, Jesus. And then she 1136 01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:46,240 Speaker 1: did a porno. She did you know that? She went 1137 01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:50,560 Speaker 1: to my university? Oh really? Yeah yeah, Kelsey Folk and 1138 01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:52,320 Speaker 1: I never knew her here, but she went here for 1139 01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,640 Speaker 1: what about it? What about this idea? And then I'll 1140 01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:56,200 Speaker 1: let you and then we'll let you go because I've 1141 01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,240 Speaker 1: just so many ques. It's just like so fascinating, but 1142 01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:02,480 Speaker 1: real quick, like the identicals who don't know that they 1143 01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:04,560 Speaker 1: have one. I mean, I can't imagine if I'm walking 1144 01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:08,400 Speaker 1: down Santa Monica Boulevard and I see myself, I'd have 1145 01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,400 Speaker 1: like a back to the future moment where I just 1146 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:12,480 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, time and space changes and I 1147 01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,640 Speaker 1: might faint or throw up or something might happen. I 1148 01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:19,959 Speaker 1: mean that has those stories must exist where you are 1149 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,200 Speaker 1: looking in a mirror and don't even realize you have 1150 01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:25,360 Speaker 1: a twin until then. There's one story where a pair 1151 01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:28,680 Speaker 1: of rear apart twins met that way. Most of the 1152 01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,680 Speaker 1: time it's confusion by other people. But there were these 1153 01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:35,360 Speaker 1: Scottish ladies who grew up close together in Scotland, but 1154 01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,680 Speaker 1: they were different sides of the family. Anyway. They were 1155 01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,360 Speaker 1: sixty six and one of them was working in a 1156 01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,960 Speaker 1: church and the other one came to visit the church 1157 01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,800 Speaker 1: and knocked on the door and nobody answered it. But 1158 01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:50,720 Speaker 1: then when the woman opened the door, they came out 1159 01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,400 Speaker 1: to this little garden and they recognize each other right away. 1160 01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:57,200 Speaker 1: Now they both knew they had a twin. They knew 1161 01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,840 Speaker 1: this all their lives, but nevertheless they weren't prepared for this. 1162 01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,360 Speaker 1: So that's the only case we have where you recognize 1163 01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,240 Speaker 1: yourself now. In my book Deliberately Divided, I had this 1164 01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,160 Speaker 1: amazing case of this guy Justin Goldberg, who's a music 1165 01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:14,880 Speaker 1: producer who lives in Los Angeles, and he was adopted 1166 01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:18,000 Speaker 1: from Louise Wise in nineteen sixty four, so he was 1167 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,240 Speaker 1: right in that period. But they were separating twins, and 1168 01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:24,960 Speaker 1: his daughter was at the farmer's market and she saw 1169 01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:28,080 Speaker 1: what she was positive was her dad's lookalike, and she 1170 01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,280 Speaker 1: videotaped it and it's the most amazing photograph. If you 1171 01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:34,360 Speaker 1: look in the book, you'll see Justin and you'll see 1172 01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:36,639 Speaker 1: this look alike. And they tried hard to find him, 1173 01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,920 Speaker 1: but eventually he was in touch with his biological mother, 1174 01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:43,720 Speaker 1: who said that you were not a twin, but because 1175 01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:48,080 Speaker 1: the lookalike and because of this Louise Wise adoption service connection, 1176 01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,559 Speaker 1: that case was very, very significant. I dashed out to 1177 01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:55,120 Speaker 1: his house with ABC twenty twenty to do a piece 1178 01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,040 Speaker 1: on that. Yeah, that was great. Great. So okay, so 1179 01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,479 Speaker 1: let's first of all, thank you so much for coming 1180 01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,880 Speaker 1: on and talking with us about all of this. But 1181 01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,600 Speaker 1: let's end with what two things. One I'd love to 1182 01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:12,400 Speaker 1: know what for you. I mean, I know it's probably 1183 01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,360 Speaker 1: hard to decipher what this would be, but the most 1184 01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,519 Speaker 1: surprising thing you've come across in your research that you 1185 01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:23,479 Speaker 1: really was the most unexpected. And then I guess the 1186 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,000 Speaker 1: last question would be what are you looking forward to 1187 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:30,479 Speaker 1: next with your research and your book. Yeah, so, I 1188 01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:34,800 Speaker 1: think that the most important finding from the research is 1189 01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:40,240 Speaker 1: that living together does not make you alike. That if 1190 01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,040 Speaker 1: family members live together, it's the genes that make them 1191 01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:47,200 Speaker 1: alike and not the common environment. In terms of a 1192 01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:49,760 Speaker 1: pair of twins that I think are the most spectacular, 1193 01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:53,000 Speaker 1: it has to be Oscar and Jack. Oscar was raised 1194 01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:56,880 Speaker 1: Jewish by his father in Trinidad. I'm sorry. Jack was 1195 01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,160 Speaker 1: raised Jewish by his father in Trinidad. And Oscar was 1196 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:04,240 Speaker 1: raised Catholic by his mother in Nazi Germany, and he 1197 01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:05,920 Speaker 1: was never a Nazi, but he did go to the 1198 01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,639 Speaker 1: Hitler youth and the war was over by the time 1199 01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,920 Speaker 1: he was twelve. When they met in their forties, they 1200 01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:16,040 Speaker 1: knew that if their positions had been reversed, they would 1201 01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:20,240 Speaker 1: have embraced the philosophy of the other, and currently it 1202 01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,120 Speaker 1: was a philosophy that they both completely loathed and rejected. 1203 01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:28,439 Speaker 1: Oscar rejected Jackson, Jack's rejected Oscars. But they know that 1204 01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:30,920 Speaker 1: if they'd been reversed, they would have been inculcated in 1205 01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:33,720 Speaker 1: the culture of their country at that particular point in time. 1206 01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:39,080 Speaker 1: I find that absolutely extraordinary. Now what I'm working on 1207 01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,320 Speaker 1: at the moment, I'm working on two books right now. 1208 01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:46,320 Speaker 1: One of them has the working title of Border Crossings, 1209 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,240 Speaker 1: and it's going to be an in depth study of 1210 01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:54,240 Speaker 1: a family from Los Angeles that made national and international 1211 01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:59,120 Speaker 1: headlines over the last four years. It is a gay couple. 1212 01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,960 Speaker 1: They met in Israel. One is an Israeli man, he's 1213 01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:05,920 Speaker 1: in his thirties. The other is an American who went 1214 01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,160 Speaker 1: there to study in his forties. They met in Israel, 1215 01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,439 Speaker 1: they married in Canada in twenty ten, because you couldn't 1216 01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:14,679 Speaker 1: marry in the US or in Israel at that time. 1217 01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:18,880 Speaker 1: And while in Canada, they had fraternal twin boys through 1218 01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:21,639 Speaker 1: a surrogate, and each man was the father of one 1219 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,840 Speaker 1: of the boys, and so it was a wonderful, loving, 1220 01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:28,479 Speaker 1: happy family until they tried to leave Toronto to move 1221 01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,160 Speaker 1: to the United States. And because one of the babies 1222 01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:34,800 Speaker 1: had a Canadian mom and his Jeli father did not 1223 01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:38,000 Speaker 1: have the US parent, they were going to deny him citizenship. 1224 01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,400 Speaker 1: So this is a case that almost made it to 1225 01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:46,240 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. And so it combines twinship, family, marriage laws, 1226 01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:48,800 Speaker 1: immigration laws. I think it's going to be a very 1227 01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:56,320 Speaker 1: rich story. Another great, awesome idea, not drama. Yeah. Yeah, 1228 01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:59,320 Speaker 1: So I've met some of the family already, talked to 1229 01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:01,040 Speaker 1: some of them. I've I've got a lot of interviews 1230 01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:05,200 Speaker 1: lined up. I'm very excited about that one's that's great. Yeah. 1231 01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:09,560 Speaker 1: My second book is called The Twins, Children of the Holocaust, 1232 01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:15,200 Speaker 1: and this in nineteen eighty five, as a Jewish twin myself, 1233 01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:20,280 Speaker 1: I went to Israel and to first to Poland Auschwitzburg 1234 01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:22,880 Speaker 1: and now you know, one of the concentration camps, and 1235 01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,479 Speaker 1: that was where doctor Joseph Mangele had done his horrific 1236 01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,400 Speaker 1: experiments on the twins and dwarfs and other people with 1237 01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:34,160 Speaker 1: medical anomalies. And I took extraordinary photographs. I'm not a photographer, 1238 01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:37,400 Speaker 1: but it's amazing what a nikon camera can do. And 1239 01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:40,760 Speaker 1: so I have probably one hundred hundred and fifty beautiful photographs. 1240 01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,600 Speaker 1: And during COVID, when I was home, I thought that 1241 01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:46,679 Speaker 1: I should publish these, and so I have a contract 1242 01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:49,320 Speaker 1: now to publish about fifty or sixty of them, and 1243 01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:51,559 Speaker 1: it's going to be a photography book, something I've never 1244 01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:55,040 Speaker 1: done before, with just a little bit of annotation and background, 1245 01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,880 Speaker 1: because I wanted photographs to speak for themselves. So that's 1246 01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,880 Speaker 1: another project I'm very excited about. And I've been in 1247 01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,439 Speaker 1: touch with some of those twins, you know, their eighties 1248 01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:05,880 Speaker 1: and nineties now, they were the twin children at the time, 1249 01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:07,479 Speaker 1: so some of them were still alive and I've done 1250 01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,400 Speaker 1: some interviews with them as well. That's my other project. 1251 01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:15,559 Speaker 1: Amazing cool well, doctor Siegel, thank you so much for 1252 01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:17,840 Speaker 1: joining us. Pleasure to meet both of you, really, and 1253 01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm most fortunate that in this product. Thank you right, 1254 01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:26,519 Speaker 1: thank you. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson 1255 01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:31,000 Speaker 1: and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Alison President, editor is Josh Wendish. 1256 01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,519 Speaker 1: Music by Mark Hudson aka Uncle Man.