1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Christine is a longtime special ed teacher in the St. 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Louis area. She remembers the day that her son Zack 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: introduced her to his new girlfriend. Her name was Sarah. 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: At this point, they had been dating a while and 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: Zach really likes her. Zach did tell me that she 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: was a nurse, so I did like that. You have 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: to be a caring person to be a nurse. Had 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: told her other things too. She lives in Illinois and 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: she loved dogs just like me. You may hear one 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: of them panting in the background here. I asked, Low, 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: how did you meet this girl? And then he said 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: e harmony? And I was like, oh, okay, brother. But 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: that skepticism disappeared when Sarah walked in the door one 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: autumn day in two thousand and eight, she just had 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: this right smile, just her eyes kind of gleam. She 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: said she was working at a St. Louis hospital, at 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: least for now. She wanted to work in the neo 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: natal unit of Children's hospital. She wanted to work with 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: the premier babies. She also said that she was a 20 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: camp counselor at the MSD Camp summer camp for kids 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: with muscular dysgraphy as a teacher. Christine loved the way 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: that Sarah was so dedicated to children, and I thought, wow, 23 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: this is a nice girl. At the time, Sarah was 24 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: twenty three years old, she was living back in her 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: hometown but commuting to St. Louis and dating Zach. Christine 26 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: thought that they were getting serious quickly, too quickly, but 27 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: she liked Sarah. Christine told us by the way that 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: Zach preferred for his mom to tell this story, she 29 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: got really close with me. We did shopping together, We 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: did a lot of stuff together that you would do 31 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: like with a daughter in law, you know, not maybe 32 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: so much the girlfriend. And unlike what Sarah told Aaron 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: Johnson that her parents were doctors or her college sweet 34 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: mates that she had leukemia, the story she told Christine 35 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: seemed to be, at least at first, the truth. She 36 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: said that she was really into skiing at Hidden Valley, 37 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: but not heading to the Olympics. And she talked about 38 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: her mom and dad. They got divorced when she was 39 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: really young, and she did not ever want to be divorced. 40 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: She made that clear. Her dad was a truck driver, 41 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: so she never got to see him. Her dad was 42 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: not in the picture much, but he did by her car. 43 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: While they were dating, she didn't seem to have a 44 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: warm relationship with her mom. Zach didn't offer the greatest 45 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: endorsement either. He described her as just cold. He used 46 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: a bad word. She would say, that's why I love you, 47 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: because you're so kind and you're just a total opposite 48 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: of my mom. The holidays came, we were baking Christmas cuckys, 49 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: and she were talking about her mom almost NonStop and 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: about how I am the exact opposite of her mom. 51 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: That December, she and Zack came over one evening and 52 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: said they had some news. Everyone sat down in the 53 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: living room on the sofa. She showed me her hand 54 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: with this ring and a big old smile. I believe 55 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: she started crying. Zach was recently divorced, and Christine was 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: glad her son had found someone who made him happy, 57 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: and most importantly, Sarah really seemed to care about Zack's kid, 58 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: who was just a year old at the time. Zach 59 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: had a brief marriage that didn't last, but the little 60 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: boy that came out of it was the light of 61 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: his grandmother's life. For Sarah, marrying Zach would be like 62 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: instant motherhood. She really liked this little ready made family 63 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: that she had was Zack. The even set for portraits Sarah, 64 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: Zach and his son for Christmas, and that's what she gave. 65 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: She gave everybody pictures. I said, wow, Sarah, you put 66 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: a lot of time an effort and spent a lot 67 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: of money, you know, for Christmas this year. And she goes, 68 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: she goes, well, I haven't had a family for Christmas, 69 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: and I just wanted it to be special. So everything 70 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: is wonderful. New Year's Eve is when things start to 71 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: fall apart. New Year's Eve, Sarah told her fiance something 72 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: about herself that she had been raped for reasons he 73 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: couldn't quite articulate. To his mom, Zach was skeptical. Something 74 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: about her story was just too implausible for him. He 75 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: just said something seemed really off about it. And I 76 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: don't know what it was, you know, he couldn't really 77 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: tell me what exactly about it was off. I'm like, 78 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: who lies about this? It has to be true. Nobody's 79 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: going to lie about something like that. And then I'm thinking, 80 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: for Sarah was right? Do you know? And uh so 81 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: he was like, I don't know. I said, oh, I 82 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: basically told him, don't ruin it. You know she's a 83 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: nice girl. The first week in January two thousand nine, 84 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: he broke off the engagement. Everybody was mad at Zach, 85 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: my dad, my mom, my brother, and my sister in law. 86 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: It was a really bad time for him because we 87 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: were all like, how did you do this? And she's 88 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: calling me and crying and I'm crying, and I'm like, 89 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: I don't know what's wrong with him. I was team 90 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: Sarah all the way, and so is my mom and 91 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: my dad, and oh, everybody was like, how could you 92 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: do this to her? I mean, I really felt bad 93 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: for Zach. He held his ground. He said, I'm telling 94 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: you there's something about her that's just not right. I'm 95 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: Laura Beale. You're listening to Sympathy Pains. This is episode 96 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: five Truth. In February of two thousand nine, Christine was 97 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: still stinging from her son's broken engagement. She had come 98 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: to already think of Sarah like a daughter in law, 99 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: and now she was out of her life. But Sarah 100 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: wasn't going to stay out of her life, not by 101 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: a long shot. Christine came home from work one afternoon 102 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: and pulled a plain white envelope out of her mailbox. 103 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: The return address was Sarah's, and I'm like, well, I 104 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: haven't heard from her a while. I wonder, you know, 105 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: I had never received a piece of mail from her before. 106 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: There was no note, but something was tucked inside, a 107 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: picture of an ultrasound. Christine stared at the image in shock. 108 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: Sarah was pregnant, and even if Sarah wasn't going to 109 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: be your daughter in law, it didn't change the fact 110 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: that this was her grand baby. I immediately go to Zach, 111 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: what what's going on? What is this? He says, I 112 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: don't think it's real. She's just upset that I broke 113 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: up with her, and I was like, oh my gosh, 114 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: you better marry her. He was adamant. He didn't believe 115 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: her anymore about anything. She's just trying to use this, 116 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: so we get back together again. He goes, I don't 117 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: think it's real. For the next few months, Chris Dean 118 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: and Sarah talked from time to time that summer. Sarah 119 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: said she was on vacation in southern California and she 120 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: went into a labor early and the baby was born 121 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: as a PREMI I was heartbroken that this baby was 122 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: born prematurely and is sitting there fighting for life. Sarah 123 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: named the newborn Isabella, the name Zach had picked out 124 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: if his son had been a girl, Isabella Christine. Her 125 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: middle name was after Zack's mom, and Sarah started a 126 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: blog to post updates on the baby. And I'm looking 127 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: at the blog all the time. There's pictures, and there's 128 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: like narratives that she wrote daily, like long narratives. I 129 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: was hanging onto every word. Christine's parents and friends were 130 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: glued to the blog too. The one person who wasn't 131 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: it was Zack. He wasn't even convinced there was a 132 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: baby at all. Actually, he told his mom that he 133 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: thought the snapshots were of different infants. I'm like, how 134 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: can you say that. Being so far away was tearing 135 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: Christine apart. She was my baby granddaughter, and I wanted 136 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: to see her. I knew I probably couldn't hold her, 137 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: but I wanted to see her and I wanted to 138 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: be there with her. She called Sarah. I just said 139 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: I'm leaving early in the morning, um and driving, And 140 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: I said I'll drive twenty four hours straight through. Later 141 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: that same night, Sarah called her back and says, I 142 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: have some horrible news for you. Isabella died in my 143 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: arms tonight. She just couldn't fight any longer. It was 144 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: like a bomb had just dropped on my head. I 145 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: was devastated. Christine mourned for months. She couldn't even attend 146 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: the funeral for little Isabella Christine because there wasn't one. 147 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: She spent months grieving the granddaughter she never met. Christmas 148 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: came around and Christine found a card from Sarah in 149 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: her mailbox and something else, pictures of a baby, maybe 150 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: six months old, and it says Merry Christmas from Sarah, 151 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: Adam and Isabella. Another bomb hits me. She tried to 152 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: reach Sarah in agony, but she didn't answer her messages. 153 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: Was this her Isabella? So then fast forward the next Christmas, 154 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: I get another Christmas collage and it is a little 155 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: girl and it says again, Merry Christmas from Sarah, Adam 156 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: and Isabella. Uh. Christine of course had no idea that. 157 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, the year before Zack even 158 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: met Sarah, she had started a blog with a profile 159 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: picture of herself looking hugely pregnant. She said she was 160 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: a student nurse married to the most wonderful man in 161 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: the world named Adam. Staring at the picture on the 162 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: Christmas card, Christine thought that the baby girl looks strikingly 163 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: like her grandson. I'm like, oh my god, that is 164 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: my granddaughter. She called Sarah again. This time she answered, 165 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, what is going on? I thought you said 166 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: the baby died. Sarah told her that the baby hadn't died, 167 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: but she didn't want her to be raised by parents 168 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: who weren't together like she'd been, that she had met 169 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: and married a guy who completed their family. I just, 170 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: I begged her. I said, I don't have to be grandma. 171 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: Can we meet at a park and just like I 172 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: could just be your friend, you know, I just want 173 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: to be in her life. It was sad, it was horrible. 174 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm almost crying now. Sarah never sent another card. 175 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: It was like, your heart is out there somewhere, like 176 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: part of your heart is out there somewhere, and you 177 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: have no idea. A few more years went by. In 178 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: late summer two thousand seventeen, Sarah started texting Christine again. 179 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 1: The year before, in a parallel Sarah universe, she had 180 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,719 Speaker 1: risen from her power chair at Camp Summit, ridden off 181 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: in a van when Christine got the text from Sarah. 182 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: She was sitting at a Mexican restaurant with her grandson 183 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: and a couple of his friends. Just the four of 184 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: us were there. We were waiting for our food. I 185 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: just I remember, she just starts texting me. You know, 186 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: how are you back? I mean, there was some small 187 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: talk before that, and she was like, are you still teaching? 188 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: And then of course I said, yes, I'm still teaching. 189 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 1: I'm fine. So how is Adam and Isabella? She said, well, 190 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: I have some bad news, and then she texted that 191 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: Isabella was killed in a car accident. Christine sat at 192 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: the table waiting for her food to arrive. Stunned. She 193 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: went through the rest of the meal in a daze. 194 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: She had lost her only granddaughter. Again, I said, can 195 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: I see some pictures of her, you know, before the accident, 196 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: and so she sent lots of pictures. A day or 197 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: two later, Sarah came over to Christine's house. She went 198 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: straight to the couch and then we just started hugging 199 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: each other and crying. She told me all of out, 200 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: and we boo hooed like her and I were hugging 201 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: each other, just bawling, bawling. A couple more years past 202 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: with Christine carrying around a granddaughter's sized hole in her heart. 203 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: Then in the spring of two tho, she got a 204 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: text from her son, You're not going to believe this, 205 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: but Sarah was on the Dr Phil show. I just 206 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: watched it. Told you guys, nobody believed me. That night, 207 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: after work, Christine called up the links on YouTube. My 208 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: like jaw was dropped the whole show. I could not 209 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: be leave what I was hearing. She was in my 210 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: house telling me that my grand baby died two times, 211 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: and it was the first time time I believed that 212 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: I did not have a granddaughter. Christine was livid, wounded. 213 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: She took my trust and people. At the same time, 214 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: she felt like Sarah needed therapy. At the end of 215 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: the show, it said that she was given a chance 216 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: to go to some place to go get some help. 217 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: But even as Christine was watching the video on YouTube, 218 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: Sarah had already left treatment and was back home. If 219 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: Sarah wasn't going to stop on her own, there were 220 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: now plenty of other people who were going to try 221 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: to make or see the truth. Chris Conrad is a stocky, 222 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: middle aged man with glasses and a high forehead. Today. 223 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: He's the city manager in Highland, Illinois. We talked one 224 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: day in his office on the first floor of city Hall, 225 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: a building with the kind of gingerbread trim that looks 226 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: more like a chalet seeing the Alps, and not a 227 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: small town in the Mississippi Valley. Highland was founded by 228 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: Swiss immigrants. They are pretty proud of their Swiss heritage. Searcy, 229 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: Switzerland is our sister city. Not a ton of controversy 230 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: in Highland. The day we spoke, Chris was getting ready 231 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: for the upcoming charity pie auction in the town square. 232 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: Before he was city manager, he was police chief, and 233 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: if you go all the way back to two thousand six, 234 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: he was a beat cup. That was the year he 235 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: got a call from the local FBI office about a 236 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: woman and a stolen quilt. They asked that we reached 237 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: out to her and find out what was going on. 238 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: Was there a part of you that that the FBI 239 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: has contacted me about a quilt? Well, you know, at 240 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: this point I had been an officer for six years, 241 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: and so I understood death by deception. Was he went 242 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: by her house and learned that she was away at college. 243 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: Had wait till the weekend when she was home, but 244 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: then ended up bringing her bringing her in to talking 245 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: to her about the issue. She seemed nervous. I remember 246 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: that seemed like any other college student that would be 247 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: talking to an officer, so I didn't necessarily think that 248 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: was out of line. Sitting at the police station, she 249 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: said this originally started as doing research for a school 250 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: project on s M A, and that she was a 251 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: nursing student that in doing that research, she started pretending 252 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: to have it and then created another persona on the 253 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: chat room that she was the parent of a child 254 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: that had it. She didn't really have, didn't really have 255 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: an excuse as to why she did it. She was 256 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: embarrassed that she had done it, seemed to acknowledge that 257 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: had gone too far. I remember thinking as I was 258 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: talking to her that she was a little socially awkward 259 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: and not a psychologist. But I remember thinking to myself 260 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: that it was probably she enjoyed the attention that came 261 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: from it. They didn't press charges, but he told her 262 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: he was going to call the college and tell them 263 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: she needed a referral for counseling. That day, he sent 264 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: an email to Andrea Smith, the computer whiz who had 265 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: found out that Sarah was lying. He told Andrea that 266 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: he had called a former teacher of hers and it learned. 267 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: As he wrote to Andrea, Sarah was always slightly different 268 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: and never really fit in with any particular crowd, just 269 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: had a lot of problems socially. He also said he 270 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: was going to speak with Sarah's mom about, as he 271 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: called it, issues that needed to be addressed professionally. I 272 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: don't know if this was the first time someone said 273 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: Sarah needed treatment, but it certainly wouldn't be the last. 274 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: And I don't know how her mom reacted to the advice. 275 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: Mental health issues come with such stigma that people are 276 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: often afraid to acknowledge a problem exists, even to themselves, 277 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: especially in a small town where you can't easily fade 278 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: into anonymity. Even when people do seek therapy, they often 279 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: face a shortage of providers or insurance that views mental 280 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 1: health coverage as some kind of luxury. The fact that 281 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: Sarah didn't get treatment right then and there isn't all 282 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: that surprising. In a given year, more than half of 283 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: adults experiencing mental illness won't receive care for it. Back 284 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: in South Carolina, Andrea was thrilled to get the quilt back. 285 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: I sent an email out to the s M a 286 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: support chat and asked everybody to write a little thank 287 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: you note to Officer Conrad and send pictures of the 288 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: kids send them to me, and I put together a 289 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: big box and sent it to him. So in two 290 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen, when Andrea teamed up with Liz and Bethany, 291 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: she knew who she was going to call. By then, 292 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: Officer Conrad had been promoted to Chief Conrad. He referred 293 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: Andrea to a member of his force, the Tromon. David 294 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: Brin's with the Highland Police Department. Tall and friendly, He's 295 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: been a policeman for about thirteen years. Came down to 296 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: this area for college and like the area so just 297 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: happened to stay. He was named Officer of the Year 298 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: once by the local Optimists Club. By the time he 299 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: talked to Andrea, David Brines already knew about Sarah had 300 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: been getting calls from Liz and Bethany. To investigate. He 301 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: obtained records from the Young Survival Coalition, the breast cancer 302 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: charity that had sponsored the bike ride where she met Liz. 303 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: I found out that the bike had been donated to her. 304 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: So at that point we realized that we did have 305 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: a fraud, but the crime was out of state, out 306 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: of his local jurisdiction. So in the summer of two 307 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen, he called the FBI investigators discovered another stolen bike. 308 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: Sarah had ordered a bicycle off of the eBay and 309 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: I said, those were several thousand dollars. It was sent 310 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: through the postal service after she ordered it in February, 311 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: but she told the seller it never arrived and got 312 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: her money back. In doing so, she committed mail fraud. 313 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: At that point we had a federal crime. The case 314 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: was now in the hands of a federal prosecutor. Lukeweisler 315 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: I am an assistant United States Attorney in the Southern 316 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: District of Illinois. I've been in this office for about 317 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: two years. Before that, I was in private practice for 318 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: about six years. Luke is a young guy, late thirties 319 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: who coaches the basketball and soccer teams of his three 320 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: young boys. He grew up in Springfield, Missouri, the youngest 321 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: of four, where his dad was a pharmacist and his 322 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: mother was a teacher. He himself taught middle school math 323 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: for two years in the Rio Grand Valley before he 324 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: went to law school. It was in law school that 325 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: he heard a federal prosecutor talk about how his job 326 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: protects people. It inspired him. Every day here, I am 327 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: pushed to do the right thing for the right reasons, 328 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: and so you know, this is a job where I 329 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: feel like I can really make a difference, and that's 330 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: that's why I'm here. He specializes in white collar crimes, corruption, 331 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: money laundering, identity theft. Now that I've been to this 332 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: job for a little while, I am more keenly aware 333 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: of just the amount of fraud that that takes place 334 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: in the world. Being a part of the way to 335 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: confront that and the way to to resolve it for 336 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: people is a really big deal because it it is 337 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: something that has a tremendous impact on people's lives. But 338 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,719 Speaker 1: he had never heard of a case quite like the 339 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: one that landed on his desk. In July of two 340 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: thousand nine, the head of the fraud unit came into 341 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: his office and said, you know, there's there's a new 342 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: case that I want you to handle. There's a woman 343 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: who has faked breast cancer and muscular dystrophe, has most 344 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: likely defrauded some nonprofits. You mentioned that that she had 345 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: largely confessed to the conduct on national television. I think 346 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: my reaction was probably the same as as most people 347 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: that first hear about this case. There's just kind of 348 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: disbelief about what happened. He started looking into the evidence 349 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: that FBI agents and postal inspectors had gathered. When you 350 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: really think about what it takes to commit that fraud, 351 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: that she actually went to a camp, actually allowed counselors 352 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,239 Speaker 1: at that camp to bathe her, to feed her, I 353 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: mean to to for those counselors to learn after the 354 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: fact that she was capable of doing all those things 355 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: on her own, that is just devastating. It went from 356 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: a case that I guess, on its face just had 357 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: some bizarre details into a case that was really worth pursuing. 358 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: He had seen his share of medicare scams and fake 359 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: go fund me accounts. This was different. I don't believe 360 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: that her her primary or soul objective anyway, was just 361 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: to obtain money. In most of our cases, that is 362 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: the soul objective, and it's the soul objective. Unusually a 363 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: pretty grand scale, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars 364 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: are usually at stake. This was not the case here, 365 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, based purely on dollars, it almost wouldn't be 366 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: a federal case. The law says that you can't physically 367 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: hurt another person and you can't take their money, but 368 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: you can take their trust, their love, their faith and 369 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: people and crush it. Luke saw that Sarah seemed to 370 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: choose communities and people who were the most vulnerable and 371 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: the most giving. They're not going to question if somebody's 372 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: in a wheelchair whether or not that person can walk. 373 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: You know, if somebody is going to have the appearance 374 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 1: of having gone through chemotherapy, they're not going to question that. 375 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: And she exploited that empathy that they have the emotional 376 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: harm here dwarfed what the financial harm was. Something else 377 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: nagged at him too. He walked me through her biggest 378 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: crime in the eyes of the law, stealing the bike 379 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: she ordered off eBay. It was worth more than four 380 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, so she used her mom's credit card to 381 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: order it. She received that bicycle and then claimed that 382 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: she didn't so she disputed the transaction when when she 383 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: actually did receive the bike and was ultimately reimbursed for 384 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: that money. What really bothered him more than what she 385 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: did was when she did it. She was on Dr 386 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: Phil in April of two thousand. May of two thousand 387 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: and nineteen is when that dispute occurred on the credit card. 388 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: After she was on Dr Phil, vowing to do whatever 389 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: it took to change her life, she stole a bicycle 390 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: and after Dr Phil she signed up for a charity 391 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: swim event, putting her back in the midst of the 392 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: kind of people she had a history of lying to. 393 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: Luke couldn't force Sarah to get help, but he could 394 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: do something to protect more people from getting hurt. This 395 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: was something that she wasn't going to be deterred from 396 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: doing without some sort of intervention beyond what had been 397 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: done to that point, and what had been done at 398 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: that point was significant. She was somebody that that wasn't 399 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: going to be deterred without prosecution. By December of two 400 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen, I had already met Liz and Bethany. I 401 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: knew the FEDS were investigating, so I sent Sarah a 402 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 1: text and asked her if she would speak with me. 403 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: She answered, I'm not interested in doing a story. I've 404 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: been working to put this behind me. The next day, 405 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: I asked her if she would reconsider telling her I 406 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: wanted to hear her context, explanation, regrets, anything that would 407 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: help me understand what she had done. She wrote back, 408 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: It's in the past and nothing positive will come from 409 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: rehashing the past. For over a year, I've reached out 410 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: to Sarah, Sarah's former classmates and members of her family. 411 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: Few of them responded, and none would go on tape. 412 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: One former friend told me she felt bad for Sarah's 413 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: family and didn't want to seem like she was piling on. 414 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: Highland is a small town people talk. I flipped through 415 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: old yearbooks from Highland High School, hoping images of the 416 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: teenage Sarah might offer hints to the adults she would become. 417 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: As a junior, she joined a health promotion group called 418 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: Life Savers and was cast in a production of The 419 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz. The last page of her senior yearbook 420 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: shows a photo of her walking across the age of graduation, grinning, 421 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 1: shaking hands with a school board member. She looks like 422 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: any other graduate and a cap and gown, ready to 423 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: go into the world. Zoom in on the photo and 424 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: you can see that her right ankle is strapped into 425 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: a fracture boot all of us are products of where 426 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: we come from, but from the outside, it's hard to 427 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: know what goes on inside of family. Sarah's aunt, the 428 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: one who spoke with Liz and Brian Hickock's exchange polite 429 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: text messages with me, but didn't want to speak on 430 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: the phone. She told me Sarah's not a mean person, 431 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: just a young woman who wanted to be loved and accepted. 432 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: She wrote that Sarah didn't have enough self worth to 433 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: believe that she could make friends by just being herself. 434 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: What Sarah really needed, her aunt said, was family. She 435 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: wanted what her cousins had. She wrote, families to have 436 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 1: fun and spend time together, care for one another, travel together, 437 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: and build dreams. Reading this reminded me that in Sarah's 438 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: make believe personas, she often seemed to borrow the names 439 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: of her cousins and her cousin's children as if they 440 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: had something she did not. If her family wouldn't help 441 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: me understand Sarah, I turned to someone else who might well. 442 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: I see people with mood disorders, and I also see 443 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: people who have factitious disorder. And factitious disorder is brought 444 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: term to describe people who have much house and syndrome. 445 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: Dr Stewart Eisendraft is on the psychiatry faculty at the 446 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: University of California in San Francisco. Dr Eisendraff spoke with 447 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: me with one big caveat. He wanted it to be 448 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: clear that he hasn't examined or diagnosed Sarah, and that 449 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: his comments are based on his three decades of experience 450 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: with something called Munchhausen syndrome. The description of Munchausen sounds familiar. 451 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: That's basically where a person creates signs or symptoms of 452 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: physical illness for purposes of being in the sick role. 453 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: It isn't somebody who creates science or symptoms of illness 454 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: in order to achieve some goals such as a monetary award. Rather, 455 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: they do it because they want to be in the 456 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: patient role and whatever benefits go along with that. He 457 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: wasn't surprised to learn that Sarah had been a nurse. 458 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: In general, people with factitious disorder fifty or more have 459 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: been involved with the health care system, but the most 460 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: common thing is a nurse or nurse's aid. Our speculation 461 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: is that the people can go into the health care 462 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: fields because they want to help take care of other people. 463 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: They want to get care for themselves as well. They 464 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: oscillate often between being in a caregiving role and being 465 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: a caregiving recipient. In doing so, they may be searching 466 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: for something they're not getting at home. They may recreate, 467 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: say some family dynamics where they're getting a second family 468 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: as it were. I don't want to oversimplify, but it's 469 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: like they're seeking a sort of family nurturing relationship. Is 470 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: that kind of what you're saying, Yes, that's exactly it. 471 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: Or it can be a reaction to genuine medical trauma 472 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: from the past. They might try to in a sense, 473 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: recreated because this time they know they're in control of it, 474 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: when in the original episode they were. Whatever the reason 475 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: behind the behavior, Dr Eisendraff says, there's one commonality, a 476 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: disregard for its impact on others. There are often what 477 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: we call sociopathic. They don't have any empathy for the 478 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: people around them, so they may be quite cruel to 479 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: the people around them, but they're not concerned about that. 480 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: They're only concerned about what they're what they're getting from 481 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: the situation. They may be aware that it's antisocial or pathological, 482 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: but they rationalize it saying that to themselves, this is 483 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: what they need to do in order to get their 484 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: needs met. Sometimes the motive is deliberate control of another 485 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 1: person's feelings. One dynamic might be that the patient is 486 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: trying to provoke anger in the people around him or her, 487 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: or humiliation. It may be humiliating because they that's the issue, 488 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: that's the kind of traumatic situation that the patient is 489 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: working around, that they were humiliated as a child or 490 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: as a young adult, and that they recreate this situation 491 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: with other people. I think I've just always assumed that 492 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: the motive was to get attention and support. But what 493 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: you're saying is we can't make that assumption. It's a 494 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: common factor getting attention and support, but it's definitely not 495 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: the only factor. Does everyone who has this need psychotherapy 496 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: to stop? Or can they just decide I don't want 497 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: to live this way anymore and I'm not going to 498 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: do it. But my experience, it's very unusual for somebody 499 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: to stop on their own. And this psychotherapy is it lifelong? 500 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: Is it something that you know you pretty much just 501 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: have to keep treating it and keep treating it so 502 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't control your life. Yes, it's basically very long 503 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: term and requires rigorous attention over time. When you're dealing 504 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: with Munchausen, they have a very severe condition that is 505 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: like stage four cancer, and they deserve support not for 506 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: what the person is portraying themselves as, but for the 507 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: condition that causes them to portray it in the first place. 508 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: So instead of feeling sorry for them for they have 509 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: because they have cancer, it's really recognizing they have a 510 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: factitious disorder and they need treatment for that. Sarah thought 511 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: she had to move through the world as someone else, 512 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: someone who needed help, someone with a disability. The tragedy 513 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: is she probably did have a disability, just an invisible one, 514 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: not one that people can easily recognize and feel sympathy for, 515 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: also one extraordinarily difficult for her and her family to face. 516 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: During one pH in conversation with Liz, she told me 517 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: something surprising that she and Brian had driven halfway across 518 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: the country from their home in Rhode Island to Illinois. 519 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: I had to see her. I had to see who 520 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: she was in her elements, and we found her address, 521 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: and we drove around her town, and we went to 522 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: her coffee shop, and we saw all the places where 523 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: she would go and we sat in front her house. 524 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: She came out of her house, and both of us 525 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: were just completely breathless at that moment. It was like 526 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: our hearts stopped seeing her walk out of her house, 527 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: getting her car with her license plates and her personal 528 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: plates and go about her life. And we followed her 529 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: for a bit. So you drove all the way from 530 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: Rhode Island to Illinois just to lay eyes on her. 531 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: We did. I mean, somebody listening to this might think, wow, 532 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: that is just over the top. This was just kind 533 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: of closure if you were and seeing her. Liz wanted 534 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: to see Sarah, the real Sarah at home. She felt 535 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: like she couldn't put this behind her unless she figured 536 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: out who Sarah really was. In some ways, I didn't 537 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: blame her. I'd been wanting to understand Sarah too, looking 538 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: for clues. My mind kept going back to something that 539 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: Bethany told me, the one thing that I've never heard 540 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: her lie about. She's lied about everything else, from cousin's, 541 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: nephew's husband's, you know, dead relatives, kids, whatever. Anytime I 542 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: asked her about her father, she shut it down and 543 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: she said, no, he left when I was little, and 544 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: that was it. So I asked Officer Bryan's in Highland 545 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,879 Speaker 1: if he knew anything about Sarah's father. I did look 546 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: for it, but I was I wasn't able to find 547 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: anything of any sort of father figure for her, So 548 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: even you couldn't find, like even a name of who 549 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: he was. I kept looking, thinking her dad might provide 550 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: a clue to what her life was missing. I learned 551 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: his name is Dave and he lives in a tiny 552 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: town on Roots, less than an hour from Highland. Laura 553 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: les over your letter about Sarah That's next on the 554 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: final episode of Sympathy Pains. Sympathy Pains is a production 555 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: of Neon Hum Media and I Heart Radio. I'm your host, 556 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: Laura Beale I wrote and reported the episodes. Natalie Rinn 557 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: is the lead producer. Our editor is Katherine st. Louis. 558 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 1: Associate producer is Rufaro Mazzarua. Our executive producer is Jonathan Hirsch. 559 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: Samantha Allison is our production manager. Fact checker is Jacqueline Colletti. 560 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: Jesse Perlstein composed the theme song and music heard throughout 561 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: the series. Additional tracks are by Blue Dot Sessions and 562 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: Epidemic Sound. Scott Somerville is our engineer and sound designer. 563 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Stephanie Serrano from I Heart Radio. Special 564 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: thanks to Carrie Lieberman and Bethan Macaluso. Executive producer at 565 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: I Heeart Radio is Dylan Fagan. If you or someone 566 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: you know is struggling with mental illness, you can call 567 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,959 Speaker 1: the National Alliance on Mental Illness at eight hundred nine 568 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: five oh six two six four. That's eight hundred nine 569 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: five O N A m I