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Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to The

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Speaker 1: Velvet's Edge podcast. So you guys know that I am

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Speaker 1: fascinated with human beings and just how we work and

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Speaker 1: why we are driven to do what we do, both

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Speaker 1: emotionally and mentally. I've been extremely fascinated with narcissism as

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Speaker 1: it is such a big word in our culture these days,

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Speaker 1: especially with everything in our society from social media to

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Speaker 1: reality TV. But what if the only form of narcissism

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Speaker 1: wasn't full blown narcissistic personality disorder? What if narcissism was

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Speaker 1: actually measured on a scale and some people were higher

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Speaker 1: on these scale than others. For instance, is that X

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Speaker 1: of yours actually a narcissist or maybe just an asshole?

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Speaker 1: Or how much narcissism do you think that you actually have?

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Speaker 1: Dr Keith Campbell asked all of these questions in his

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Speaker 1: new book, The New Science of Narcissism, where he believes

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Speaker 1: that this scale is the new way to measure how

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Speaker 1: much narcissism truly exist in our culture. Dr Campbell was

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Speaker 1: one of the most insightful and down to earth interviews

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Speaker 1: that I had all year, and therefore there was just

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Speaker 1: no way it couldn't be a part of one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite conversations. I hope you guys enjoyed as much

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Speaker 1: as I did. Here's Dr Keith Campbell. Okay, so I've

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Speaker 1: found you because I don't remember exactly what I was reading,

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Speaker 1: but there was an article talking about the overuse of

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Speaker 1: the word narcissism now and how you know, in our culture,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of like, I have this tendency to be like,

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Speaker 1: oh my ex is such a narcissist. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: had this tendency to just associate the people I've dated

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Speaker 1: in the past with narcissists, and while they may be,

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Speaker 1: what I found so fascinating with what you're saying is

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Speaker 1: that there's a spectrum out there, and so I want

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Speaker 1: to kind of talk a little bit about that today

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Speaker 1: and just kind of our society's association with the word narcissism.

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Speaker 1: But could you start with just giving everyone kind of

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Speaker 1: a grand scale definition of the word narcissism. Yeah, for sure, um,

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Speaker 1: And I said, what you're telling me is something I've

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Speaker 1: I've heard, you know, from other people as well, and

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Speaker 1: it's the idea that we use the terminal arcissism and

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Speaker 1: we're kind of using it pejoratively. It's you know, it's

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Speaker 1: about the X, and it's usually kind of negative, and

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Speaker 1: it's usually saying the person sort of we use it

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Speaker 1: like a jerk may be selfish jerk, So like, how

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Speaker 1: is the X. It's just kind of a narcissist. I'm

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Speaker 1: over it. What does that mean? Well, he's kind of

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Speaker 1: a selfish jerk and cheated on me roses. He was

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Speaker 1: just sort of nice and boring and I just bailed

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Speaker 1: on him, you know. Also, so the narcissist you kind

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Speaker 1: of get an idea across, but it's not very it's

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Speaker 1: not very detailed. And in the in the world of psychology,

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Speaker 1: the world of research, where I like, we have this

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Speaker 1: like a more expansive definition of narcissism and to capture

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Speaker 1: some of these ideas that I'll just go through it

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Speaker 1: and stopped me if I am too boring to any point. Um,

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Speaker 1: But we talked about narcissism first, is a trait and

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Speaker 1: means that people exist on a spectrum or a continuum

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Speaker 1: from sort of levels to low levels, and most people

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Speaker 1: are sort of in the middle. Because and when we

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Speaker 1: talk about narcissism, we really use two different We use

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Speaker 1: two different terms, and what most people are using is

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Speaker 1: when they talk about narcism, it's talking about what we

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Speaker 1: call grandiose narcissism, which is this this narcissism that has

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Speaker 1: imagine having a sense of entitlement and thinking you're special

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Speaker 1: and importance, maybe not being super empathetic with people, but

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Speaker 1: also being outgoing and confident and extroverted and maybe charismatic

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Speaker 1: and maybe likable or energetic when you first meet the person.

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Speaker 1: And so when you take this combination of kind of

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Speaker 1: entitlement and self importance, that also likability and extroversion, and

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Speaker 1: you get this this kind of iron Man character when

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Speaker 1: a Tony Stark character, politician character, it can be it

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Speaker 1: can be something that's that's very likable. UM. So, this

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Speaker 1: grandiose narcissism and the trait we see in actors and

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Speaker 1: politicians and country music, you probably see some of this

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Speaker 1: um where people who are you know, rise to success

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Speaker 1: very easily, but you can have bad relationships within which

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Speaker 1: they'll talk about UM. And then the other side of

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Speaker 1: narcissism is what we call vulnerable narcissism, and this is

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Speaker 1: what you see more in the clinical world in clinical settings,

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Speaker 1: the therapy setting, and these are folks that have that

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Speaker 1: sense of entitlement. They think that better than other people famous,

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Speaker 1: you know, same as grandiose narcissists. But they also are

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Speaker 1: a little bit insecure. They're kind of depressed or anxious,

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Speaker 1: they have some low self esteem, They're vulnerable to criticism,

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Speaker 1: so they're they're they're feelings are threatened pretty easily. They

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Speaker 1: go up and down, and and how good they feel

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Speaker 1: about themselves. And people who are vulnerably narciss cistic, we

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Speaker 1: don't end up voting for for president. They we don't

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Speaker 1: end up seeing them perform, we don't ed updating them

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Speaker 1: quite as much because they're not as outgoing and likable,

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Speaker 1: but they end up in these clinical offices with depression

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Speaker 1: and anxiety because they're They're like, how can people don't

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Speaker 1: appreciate how great they am? How come people don't know

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Speaker 1: how attractive I am? You know? How come I'm not

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Speaker 1: getting all the girls? John is season of what I

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Speaker 1: have on a legend, but I'm scared to talk to anyone.

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Speaker 1: And so you have these two faces of narcissism that exists,

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Speaker 1: and both of them are traits on a continuum, and

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Speaker 1: you can have you can find people that are grandiose

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Speaker 1: and vulnerable, so they're they're grandiose, but they have thin

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Speaker 1: skin too, so you can get a mix. And then

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Speaker 1: the third way we talked about narcissism is a very

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Speaker 1: extreme form which is a personality disorder called narcissistic personality

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Speaker 1: disorder or mp D, and that is a very extreme

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Speaker 1: fortmate narcissism. That's that les two problems or impairment. So

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Speaker 1: to have a clinical disorder, clinical level of narcissism has

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Speaker 1: to be messing up your life in a way that's

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Speaker 1: so intense that you need therapy or treatment. So maybe

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Speaker 1: you're you're ruining your marriage because of your inscidelity, or

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Speaker 1: maybe you're ruining your business because you're you're too overconfident

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Speaker 1: and you don't take feedback from people and you make

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Speaker 1: a bunch of dumb risks and you won't learn from mistakes.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe you're you know, you're investing poorly because you're

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Speaker 1: always overestimating your ability, so that it could be you know,

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Speaker 1: you can have your narcissism that becomes so extreme that

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Speaker 1: it messes if your life and is a disorder. But

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Speaker 1: you can be really narcissistic and not of a disorder.

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Speaker 1: It's just your personality. Okay. I have so many questions

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Speaker 1: about that part of it because just like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's like what, okay, what I was saying about

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Speaker 1: the ex boyfriend situation, Like, I mean your description of

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Speaker 1: a grandiose narcissist literally probably, I mean it just really

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Speaker 1: sounds like a lot of max. So I mean they're

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Speaker 1: you know, they're very charming, you're very drawn to them

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Speaker 1: and all of these things. But it's when you actually

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Speaker 1: get within the relationship that it becomes a problem. So

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Speaker 1: what question is though, like if someone is just has

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Speaker 1: a has a narcissistic traits or like, well, I guess okay,

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Speaker 1: let me start over first question. Do we all have

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Speaker 1: some narcissism in us? Yes, I mean it's a continuum

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Speaker 1: and sort of by definition, we're all on there at

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Speaker 1: some level of No, there's if I gave narcissistic and

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Speaker 1: narcissistic personality inventory, that hundred people. Everybody's on there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but you're going to find a certain number of people

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Speaker 1: that are close to the top, and there's no real

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Speaker 1: line we say, oh that's narcissism and that's not. It's

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Speaker 1: but you're going to find a certain amount of people

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Speaker 1: that are at the high end, but most people on

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Speaker 1: narcissism measures are in the middle, are tun of low.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's just it's just you find some that

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Speaker 1: are in the high end. So the way that you

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Speaker 1: talk about it sounds like it's not that big of

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Speaker 1: a deal. But like what we were saying about the

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Speaker 1: X is, I'm like, oh, I gotta get away from

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Speaker 1: this person, like it's you know, it's not it's not

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Speaker 1: that big a deal for your X. It's a big

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Speaker 1: deal for you, if that makes sense. So so the

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Speaker 1: relationship thing is so interesting and and it's at least

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Speaker 1: to so many problems with narcissism because as you said

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Speaker 1: that the X we're talking about just the generic brandios

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Speaker 1: narcissistic X, not yours totist. In general, somebody was charming, confident,

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Speaker 1: probably likable when he met him, seemed to know what

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Speaker 1: he was doing, seemed to have a way about life.

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Speaker 1: You're get in a relationship with somebody like that. The

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Speaker 1: way relationships work in our culture general is you you

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Speaker 1: start a relationship that usually starts kind of shallow and fun.

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Speaker 1: You find somebody who's sort of attractive, and you go

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Speaker 1: out a few times. It's really fun, you have a

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Speaker 1: great time, you get a rush, you're like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: really like this person. This is great. And then after

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Speaker 1: a few months atart becoming more emotionally intimate with the person,

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Speaker 1: so you started focusing on caring. You start focusing on, hey,

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Speaker 1: maybe we want to make a commitment, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: we even want to move in, or maybe we won't

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Speaker 1: get married to fall in love, you know, and that

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Speaker 1: transition that happens in relationships if you want to take

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Speaker 1: them to the next level. With people who narcissistic, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen well because when you get to that part

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Speaker 1: about the emotion and commitment and you know you can't

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Speaker 1: hit on all my friends and you know you've got

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Speaker 1: to be there emotionally, that doesn't That's not their field,

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Speaker 1: that's not where they do really well. So when you

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Speaker 1: get to that phase in the relationship, that usually starts

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Speaker 1: to fall apart or can start to fall apart, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, sorry and so no, So what what often happened?

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Speaker 1: I mean the story is that you know, you get

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Speaker 1: in the relationship, you're in it a few months, things

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Speaker 1: aren't going well. You start going, well, maybe I'm doing

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Speaker 1: something wrong. Why am I why is this gut not

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Speaker 1: as interested as you seem to be. Maybe there's something

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Speaker 1: wrong with me. I'll try to be nicer, I'll try

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Speaker 1: to be more loving. Well, lo and behold if you're

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Speaker 1: more loving. That kind of pushes the person away because

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Speaker 1: they go, I can get away with anything now, and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of backfires and it falls apart and the

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Speaker 1: person that the narcissist is onto somebody else already and

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Speaker 1: you're sitting there for the next three months, And what

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Speaker 1: the hell do I do wrong? I'm an idiot? How

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Speaker 1: did I not see that coming? What? Or more on?

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm a I'm a bad person who can't

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Speaker 1: handle relationships, And like, no, you're totally fine. You just

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Speaker 1: kind with somebody when that interested in commitment, they're interested,

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Speaker 1: and they're interested in commitment on their terms, but not

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Speaker 1: on the terms that work for both of you. So,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, will you say that it's so it's not

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Speaker 1: an issue for them. Isn't that creating problems in their life?

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Speaker 1: It isn't. So I was a little glod when I

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Speaker 1: said that. And it does cause issues for the narcissists,

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Speaker 1: but issues are usually a little more long term. So

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Speaker 1: what happens to the ex boyfriend to see goes through

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Speaker 1: this relationship a few times because and he looks around

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Speaker 1: and he goes, Tad, my friends are married, and I

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Speaker 1: see some of that families and they and they're getting something.

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Speaker 1: They have this love and I don't have that. And

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I need to figure out

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Speaker 1: how to change so I can have a little more

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Speaker 1: committed relationship. And that's when you start seeing people in

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Speaker 1: narcissistics start seeing that their life choices have some consequences.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense a little later? And and and

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Speaker 1: when I hear from people, you know, I hear from

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Speaker 1: I hear from ten people who had a bad relationship

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Speaker 1: with some needing narcissistic for everybody says, look, I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of a narcissistic Keith and I and I want love

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Speaker 1: and I want a family. I'm just I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: blowing it. Yeah, you know. But that's when but that

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Speaker 1: does happen. It's just usually a little more long term.

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Speaker 1: So it's just a little later once this start realizing

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Speaker 1: or seeing other people go through that process. Yeah, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know. And it's the way, it's the way relationships

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Speaker 1: work in our culture. Because we have these sort of

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Speaker 1: love of attraction relationships and are very individualistic. If you

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Speaker 1: go find do you know whatever, you'll find people in tinder.

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Speaker 1: If we were in India, um, and you know it's

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Speaker 1: a arranged marriage, then this wouldn't be an issue because

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Speaker 1: you can end up with somebody and then you'd have

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Speaker 1: to learn to love them. Right, Okay, I see, So

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Speaker 1: when does it actually become a problem because you say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe we all have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: narcissism in us, and um, I do want to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that test that you can take.

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Speaker 1: But if there's a spectrum and we're all on it

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Speaker 1: in some capacity, when is it actually an issue? Is

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Speaker 1: it when it becomes a disorder or is it just

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Speaker 1: if you're super high and narcissism, Like, how does it?

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Speaker 1: What does that look like? You know? I think that's

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Speaker 1: a it's a great question. And I generally think of

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Speaker 1: personality traits as trade offs, meaning, you know, narcissism really

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Speaker 1: would help me in certain situations like doing podcasts for example,

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Speaker 1: or you know, I go stand out there and tell

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Speaker 1: the world's your allegence, you know, or you're expert. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you gotta ask an ego to do that. And and

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Speaker 1: there are other times when ego really hurts you. So

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Speaker 1: if I'm with my kids or with my dog, or

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Speaker 1: I'm with my wife and you know, we're trying to

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Speaker 1: talk and I'm trying to listen, you know, my ego

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Speaker 1: sort of interferes um. And so the way I'd like

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Speaker 1: to think about it is that we really want our

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Speaker 1: personality to be flexible and adapt to the situation. So

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Speaker 1: we want to be able to be confident when it's

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Speaker 1: time to be confident, but when it's not time to

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Speaker 1: be confident, we need to be able to dial that back.

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Speaker 1: And maybe we want to be super creative when it's

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Speaker 1: time to be creative, but when we're not, you know,

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Speaker 1: when it's time to just get in line with all

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Speaker 1: the rules, we want to turn that back. And you know,

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Speaker 1: so we have these different traits and they and they

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Speaker 1: they work, you know, in different places we want to

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Speaker 1: more or less, and so kind of a healthy personality

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Speaker 1: is some of these psychologically flexible, meaning they can they

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Speaker 1: can move around these traits depending on what they need.

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Speaker 1: Where people get in troubles when they become rigid or

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Speaker 1: inflexible and they they can't really change one way all

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Speaker 1: the time. Yes, no matter what the situation is. It's like,

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Speaker 1: what about my ego needs? Like, dude with a pandemic,

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Speaker 1: you know right, you're not getting your not getting your

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Speaker 1: burger man, it's a pandemic, like my burgers pandemic. Man,

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Speaker 1: let it go. If you can't just let it go,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna suffer because you're like, where are my needs

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Speaker 1: being met? You know when you're thinking about your needs?

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Speaker 1: Everyone's struggling right now, my friend. Okay, well tell me

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Speaker 1: a little more about ego needs because I will tell

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Speaker 1: you this. When I was reading your book, The New

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Speaker 1: Science of Narcissism, I'm reading it and I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I would like I said earlier, I'm like all my access.

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Speaker 1: Then I'm reading it and I'm reading all these hart

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Speaker 1: and I was like, holy shit, am I a narcissist?

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Speaker 1: Like you start to like put yourself on it. I

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Speaker 1: started to really ask myself these hard questions and like

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Speaker 1: what you just said about ego needs, Like we all

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Speaker 1: have needs, right, especially in like a relationship for instance,

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Speaker 1: Like where is the line? I guess is what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out of just getting needs met and

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Speaker 1: being in a healthy relationship and being a healthy person

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Speaker 1: versus being on the opposite end of that. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I guess, like what you're saying, just say staying in

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Speaker 1: the ego place all the time. Yeah, you know a

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Speaker 1: lot of this is about balance and in your industry

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Speaker 1: and everything else. I mean, you know, you're in a

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Speaker 1: celebrity field. You've got to look like a celebrity. And

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Speaker 1: so there's one place I think it's really important. I feel, Look,

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Speaker 1: you can worry about your ego and being the best

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Speaker 1: and being the hottest and being the most popular, and

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Speaker 1: that's all cool as long as you're a loving first,

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Speaker 1: and there's long as you have connections, as long as

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Speaker 1: you have compassion. And so when I look at all

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Speaker 1: the problems of narcissum, because it's very easy to just go, look,

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Speaker 1: you're a narcissistic, don't be such an ego maniac. But like, well,

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Speaker 1: then who's going to jump on stage reciting poetry. Who's

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Speaker 1: going to put up those crazy pictures that look like

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Speaker 1: you know, the kid drew them and say it's modern art.

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Speaker 1: You need an ego for somebody to do. So what

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Speaker 1: I usually think, at least and this is my own

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Speaker 1: life too. You know, we all struggle with this. It's like,

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Speaker 1: if you're still able to have those compassionate connections with people,

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Speaker 1: if you're able to reach out and help people, if

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Speaker 1: you're loving the people, um, that that will buffer you

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Speaker 1: from getting taken over by your ego. So for me,

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Speaker 1: and it's just my personal practice because I have an ego,

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Speaker 1: is I try to always strut the funnel stuff through

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Speaker 1: my heart like it is my heart opened, it's my

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Speaker 1: heart working? Am I looking around? And if I do that,

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Speaker 1: I go. You know, you're not going to get too

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Speaker 1: much trouble. Yeah, you get some trouble, but you're not

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Speaker 1: going to be a total Jurora every day. You're focusing

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Speaker 1: on like expanding your capacity for the love of a

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Speaker 1: little bit, being more connected and if you're a loving person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you probably know people like this kind of egomaniacs,

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Speaker 1: but they really try to be loving, they try to

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Speaker 1: be generous. It's not always there because sometimes they're just

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Speaker 1: taught up in their own thing and they go back

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Speaker 1: to it. Look, I can work with somebody like that.

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Speaker 1: I know they're trying. So that to me is that

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Speaker 1: because if you start fiving the ego directly and saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be popular. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be hot. You kind of do want to be hot,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I don't want to be ugly,

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Speaker 1: well right, and be like trying to talk yourself self

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Speaker 1: out of being successful, like I don't want to be successful,

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Speaker 1: or you know, like why then why are we going

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Speaker 1: to work every day? Like I feel like there's a

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Speaker 1: part of us all that says I want to be successful,

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Speaker 1: and that looks different for different people, but um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the opposite extremes scene a little in humane almost, like

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Speaker 1: they are just kind of impossible, like an impossible standard

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Speaker 1: to meet, right, And I so that's why I think

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Speaker 1: it's that again, if you focus on the heart, um,

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Speaker 1: it keeps you from saying, look, my goal is to

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Speaker 1: be powerful so I can crush people, and instead, my

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Speaker 1: goal is to be powerful and once I'm here, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to try to lift people up with me. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to try to share the view with people. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna try to maybe climb back down in the mountain

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Speaker 1: and give people some kIPS or help them out, you know,

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Speaker 1: try to bring something back to the people. So I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think conceptualize in your life where there's

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Speaker 1: some part in there, where there's some part of that

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Speaker 1: bottom line that's going out to other people. Is a

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Speaker 1: way to balance stats? Um, because you know he goes there.

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Speaker 1: It's it's just that's just we have a very competitive,

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Speaker 1: individualistic society and you need some of it. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: can there every tim's in your life where you're more

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Speaker 1: narcissistic than other times? Like you mentioned? Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: like there's times where a person might be extremely loving

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Speaker 1: or whatever, but then there could be times where they

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Speaker 1: get sucked back into their own stuff. And I know,

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Speaker 1: for instance, I've had like this year, for instance, I

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Speaker 1: had a lot of really big blows work wise, or

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Speaker 1: I was just like super encompassed by a lot of

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Speaker 1: things happening in my personal life. And then of course

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Speaker 1: we all are with this pandemic, right, so I have

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Speaker 1: not felt like my best, most loving self at all

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Speaker 1: the time. Um So is that typical? Like are there

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Speaker 1: times where we can be a little more healthy and

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Speaker 1: staying and out of the ego place? And then tom's

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Speaker 1: where you just get absorbed by it for everyone? Or

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Speaker 1: is that just me? But I think it's you know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's obviously differences between people. But there's two things

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Speaker 1: you've touched on that I think you're really important. One

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Speaker 1: is that there's a general idea, you know that if

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Speaker 1: we if we're well rested and we're stress free, it's

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Speaker 1: much easier to be nice than when we're tired and

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Speaker 1: and and and stressed out or depleted or exhausted. You've

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Speaker 1: gotten work all day. Let's imagine I'm waiting tables, I'm

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Speaker 1: a server at from fancy place and you know, in

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Speaker 1: in uh Nashville, and I'm working hard, you know, pandemics

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Speaker 1: over and I'm smiling at people who are mean to

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Speaker 1: me for eight hours. And I go home to my

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Speaker 1: boyfriend and he's like as a day. I'm like, shut up,

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Speaker 1: I'm exhausted. And so you just get exhausted. And we

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Speaker 1: kind of run our world where we try to be

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Speaker 1: really nice to strangers and we and then we we

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Speaker 1: save our meetenance for those we love. It's a very

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Speaker 1: strange system. We so I think that to be our

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Speaker 1: best self, and I'm most loving self, you know, getting sleep,

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Speaker 1: getting rest, eating nutritious tie, not being you know, on

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Speaker 1: a on a sugar low. With it. It's like the

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Speaker 1: clinicians cooks like a college is always say hungry, angry

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Speaker 1: will only time those guide of that, you know, those

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Speaker 1: kind of things that will lead to stress. And if

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Speaker 1: you you know, if if when you're stressed you become narcissistic,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna make it worse. You're still much you should

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Speaker 1: not gonna be more loving, you might be more angry,

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Speaker 1: you might be more hostile. Um So, I think just

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Speaker 1: a general ease and life will help the other thing

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Speaker 1: or ages you developmental trends and you know you're eighteen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be more focused on yourself twenty one. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to build a career, You're trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out who you are. And then at some point maybe

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Speaker 1: you go, Okay, I've got I've got my foot in

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Speaker 1: the career, I've building something. Now i want to step

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Speaker 1: out and have a family, and maybe then I've got

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Speaker 1: to be less self focused, you know, and then maybe

401
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: once my family is going to gotta get my kids

402
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,199
Speaker 1: looked at, my kids through college, so I'm gonna be

403
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:59,160
Speaker 1: so focused again. To so some models in psychology talk

404
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 1: about life is a sort of a series of cycles

405
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: from some more narcissistics and more interpersonal um and some

406
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: people talk about life is one. You know, there's this

407
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: sort of major cycle. When you're young, you're you're a

408
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 1: little more selfish, and when you get older and you

409
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Speaker 1: get sort of put into the system, you get married,

410
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Speaker 1: you work, you're kind of doing your thing. You become

411
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Speaker 1: a little more socialized, you're a little less narcissistic, you're

412
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Speaker 1: a little more focused on the system. Okay, that makes

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Speaker 1: actual total sense because I think about when I graduated

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Speaker 1: college and I was like applying for my first jobs,

415
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: I had such an entitlement. This is what I always

416
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Speaker 1: tell like young twenties some things. I literally was like, Oh,

417
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna walk into these places and they're going to

418
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Speaker 1: be so happy to hire me, you know, and then

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Speaker 1: you get out there and you're like, oh wait, first

420
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Speaker 1: of all, there's a million other people just like me,

421
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Speaker 1: and um, they you know, either they had they are

422
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Speaker 1: more hard working, or they went to a better school,

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Speaker 1: or they made better grades. Like there's all these different

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Speaker 1: things that I think reality hits and you switch out

425
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: of that entire idle meant. But I've seen a lot

426
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: of people really struggle with that or you know, like

427
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: that's that's a huge tip. I try to give like

428
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: my young interns that work for me and stuff is

429
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 1: just like, stop thinking that you deserve anything and really

430
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: like put the work in to earn it. Yeah, and that,

431
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of the I mean, I

432
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: wrote a lot about generational differences in the past, and

433
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: this stuff comes up, and some of it's developmental and

434
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: it's but yeah, you're you're told for a long period

435
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: of time that you're awesome. Yeah. And you're in school

436
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: and you're told you're awesome, and you're told you're going

437
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: to be a winner. Yeah, and you're not right. No

438
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: one promised you that, and it's not fair and it

439
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: really sucks. And so with that transition, you get your

440
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: ego trash. It's really painful to people. Yeah, and that's

441
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: why I get the example of to like gig wave

442
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: surfers or fighters or people like that are awesome, super

443
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: nice because they just have got crushed so many times,

444
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 1: they've lost so many they become humble and really more

445
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: loving in a way. Um. But what's interesting about your

446
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: story too, is you went for it. You're like I

447
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: thought I was cath Actually I went for it. So

448
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: at least you went for it, you know, and and

449
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: you know I grew up. I I was you know,

450
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: when I was young, I was really secure, really anxious,

451
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I'd go for stuff, but it

452
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: was just gut check controlla you know, if anyone like me,

453
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, they must not know

454
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: who I am. And and that's not fun either. So

455
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: you know that that ego when you started something isn't

456
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: bad to go out there and do it, as long

457
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: as you're able to sort of take that ego off

458
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: pretty quickly when you realize you're you know, you're not

459
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 1: that special that one and it's hard, and and and

460
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: the other thing. I think it's funny when you're bringing

461
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: this up, because I am you know, I started judging

462
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: myself as I got older and studied this. I thought,

463
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: you know, when I'm the dumbest person at the table,

464
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: that's what I've known. I've made it. So that's academic, Yeah,

465
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: as an academic. So I've gone to dinner and I've

466
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: looked around the table. These are the smartest people I've

467
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: ever seen in my right and I thought, I'm sitting

468
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: with them, and then you shouldn't be here. This is

469
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: as good as a kid. Well, that's such a good

470
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: way to look at it though, because we all I

471
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: think a lot of times what I hear people say

472
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: or what I deal with is that um, imposter syndrome.

473
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: And so instead of going, oh my god, I shouldn't

474
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: be here, you're just like happy to be there with

475
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: these people. It's it's, it's, it's it's it's a way

476
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: of kind of just embracing and Poster syndrome a little more.

477
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: Foster syndrome is is totally normal, and it's you know,

478
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 1: it's normal for people, especially when you're rising through a system.

479
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: So every time you start something like oh my god,

480
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,719
Speaker 1: I'm a gratitude Oh my god, I'm a professor. This

481
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: is crazy, you know, and you kind of do that

482
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: your whole life. Um. But but if you're not doing that,

483
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: you know, I always tell my students, it's very easy

484
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: to set up a world where like you don't get

485
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: rattled and you're the you know everything. You just set

486
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: up a very small world for yourself when you're the

487
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: boss and and you won't be threatened and um, and

488
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: you won't grow. But if you want to grow, you

489
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: have to be comfortable being an idiot and being the

490
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: dumbest portion that though, yes, that's so true. And then

491
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: when you start doing you you start going, oh my god,

492
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 1: look how surrounded by these on such idiot you know,

493
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: and I'm on the stage with all these great people,

494
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: and you start getting reinforced for that this is great,

495
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: I'm doing it right. You start to be able to

496
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: embrace your your you know, your failings, and that's when

497
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: you start to grow. Yes, a new thing I started

498
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: doing to when I feel that feeling of like, oh God,

499
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing or I'm starting something

500
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: new and I see other people doing it so easily.

501
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: What I try to say to myself now is um

502
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: to like, look at what they're doing. Look at what

503
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 1: they're doing, well, learn from it, and just go I

504
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: can do that too. I'm in the same place now.

505
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: Maybe you don't know how to do it yet, but

506
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: like I like how he does that, or I like

507
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: how she does this part, and just take take those

508
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: as lessons instead. Yes, because one of the things that

509
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: happens the narcissism you see this with with vulnerable narcissism

510
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: in particular, but grandiose as well as you see anything.

511
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so you know, I'll look at those people.

512
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: It's so easy for them. It's just not fair. You

513
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: screw them. I'm going to trip them up on their back.

514
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shame them, and you know, so you know,

515
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: I see myself doing stuff like that. I'm gonna you

516
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 1: just sound like an envious little child. Yeah, you're acting,

517
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: you know, And it's much better to say, how look

518
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: at these people that are so successful. But I'm so

519
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: glad they did this because I can learn from them

520
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: and I, like you said, take what they're doing well

521
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: and apply it to me and modify it and this

522
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: is awesome and then all internal life. But used like

523
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: you're ego to be able to do that. Yeah, I'm learning,

524
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: I'm I'm growing on changing. This is the process and

525
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: there's a there's a step to do that because you're

526
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: not the best, right. I want to talk a little

527
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: bit about measuring narcissism, because you have a lot in

528
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: your book about actually the science by which you guys

529
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: are starting to change how you measure narcissism. And we

530
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: mentioned a little bit the n p I and UM.

531
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: I took the test and I had a hard time

532
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: because some of the questions I felt like I didn't

533
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: identify with either and some of the questions. I felt

534
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: like I could identify with both, and so then it

535
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: was like, how do I answer? Yeah, that's a strange test. So, um,

536
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: a little bit of history. There was a there's been

537
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: several ways we've measured narcissism, but the testic really popular

538
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: in the eighties and it's still so and strong. It's

539
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: called the narcissistic personnelity, the inventory, and it's a it's

540
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: a strange test, and that most of what we do.

541
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: If you take a psychology to we'll say, you know,

542
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: we'll put it on a five point scale. You know,

543
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: if I rule the world, there would be a much

544
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: better place. One to five. Five is definitely not at all.

545
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: It's usually how you do it. So but there's problems

546
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: with self report, and you know, sometimes people just say

547
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: what they think is the right thing to say. And

548
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: so what they did with this scale and some others

549
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: at the time is they use what's called a forced choice.

550
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: So they give you two questions and you have to

551
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: pick one. But the challenges both those questions are kind

552
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: of socially acceptable. So for example, it might be hey, Keith,

553
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: if you rule the rule the world, it would be

554
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: a much better place versus ruling the world frightens the

555
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: hell out of me. So I have to make a choice,

556
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, if I rule the world, I couldn't

557
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: do any better than anyone else where. I know I'm

558
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: not that narcissistic, but doesn't scare the hell out of me. Oh,

559
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: I think it'd be super fun to rule the right.

560
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: This is exactly what was happening to me when I

561
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: was taking it. So which, so which one do I tack?

562
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: And then it's kind of and so what that means

563
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: is your score is probably gonna you can probably flip

564
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: the narcissistic one on one and the non narcissistic another

565
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: and probably hit up. I'm going to ask you what

566
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,239
Speaker 1: your score was unless you want to tell me. But

567
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: I don't think I do, because I got it and

568
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: I was like, what no, but but but a lot

569
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: of times that's just the framing, and you see the

570
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: framing with that, it makes it interesting because you're answering

571
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: with those forced choice you're gonna answer a little differently.

572
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: If it were one to five scale, you might say,

573
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: if I rule the world be a much better place

574
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: a three out of five totally yes, right, So is

575
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: it accurate? Though, that's the question. Is that how we're

576
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: measuring narcissism, And if so, is that a very accurate

577
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: it way to do that? It's um that forced choice

578
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: format that it works reasonably well, but I think a

579
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: five point liferage scale is a better I mean, sorry

580
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: to these words. It's more psychometrically sound. So I mean,

581
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: my student Brittany built one three built some five point scale.

582
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: It's the nice thing about the n p I. And

583
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: the reason I like the force choice for people to

584
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: take it is because we have so many people are

585
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: taking at forty I am version, and we have a

586
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: pretty good idea what the means for arc It's it

587
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: makes it easy to compare yourself to other people. What

588
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: do you mean meaning if if you got let's say,

589
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: there's the forty point Narcissism scale, and I can say,

590
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: you know, the average score is about you know, for

591
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: some of your age, it is probably uh, I'm just

592
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: gonna say a thirteen and twelve, I don't know. And

593
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: the average scorever president is estimated and maybe the twenty five,

594
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: and the average comedian maybe the nineteen. And you so

595
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: you kind of you kind of get numbers for it.

596
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: I guess we've done it with so many samples, um,

597
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: but it would be much better if we had a

598
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: five point scale that we've given to all those different people. Right,

599
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: we just don't have it. It's just the history of

600
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: how this was made and how it kind of stuck

601
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: stuck around, and you know, we we built better scale

602
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: since then, but they're just not as they're just um,

603
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: haven't been used as much. So it's harder to find

604
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: comparison groups, and they're a little longer than things. Yeah. Well,

605
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: I will say when I took it and I got

606
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: my score and it was higher than I would have liked,

607
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: I have first was like, oh my gosh, Oh my gosh.

608
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: And but then like I started reading or kept reading more,

609
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: and you were saying, like, if you score high, don't

610
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: be alarmed. It's just interesting to recognize that maybe some

611
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: traits about you. So then I started thinking through kind

612
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: of my year, like I was saying to you earlier,

613
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: and I actually think I answered some of the questions

614
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: based on how I've been lately, whereas when I look

615
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: at my life on a grander scheme of like even

616
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: like maybe when I'm in my healthier place, the answer

617
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: is different. So it's like it's not always one or

618
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: the other. And so I just it kind of made

619
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: me think about, Okay, well, maybe right now this is

620
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 1: something that I could look at in certain characteristics, are

621
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: in certain areas of my life, even maybe where I've

622
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: been a little bit too self focused or too self absorbed,

623
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: and then I can look at it and go, Okay,

624
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: what can I do better? Do you know what I'm saying? Absolutely?

625
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: And um, I think that So first of all, these

626
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: score like your personality is going to fluctuate over time,

627
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: It's going to change in some ways that are kind

628
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: of uh, developmentally appropriate. You know, most people over time

629
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: they become maybe a little nice, or as they get older,

630
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: maybe they get old, they get a little less opened

631
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: experience when they're in the oldest age, a little more

632
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, concrete now they think. So there are these

633
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: sort of changes people go to. But also if you

634
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: measure even uh narcissistic personality inventory the extreme forms, people

635
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: will have it and they won't have it for six months,

636
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: they will come back. So people are fluctuating around these

637
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: stores depending on what's going on in the right So

638
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: we're saying that it makes perfect sense, just like it

639
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: would for anxiety. You know, anxiety stores are much higher.

640
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: I don't know if they're much higher. What I can

641
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: tell standing with people that anxiety and depression has probably

642
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: gone up during the pandemic. Yeah, yes, seems that way

643
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: in the data. You know, I don't publicly try to

644
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: be a little more cautious, but yeah, just the ones

645
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: I talk to people like that, I think dosing and

646
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: medicine is probably going up and no one's done their

647
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: study on it. Yeah, like an anxiety meds, I got

648
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: people doses and going up because I've only heard that anecdotally.

649
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: Um so, I mean that's an example where people are

650
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: changing because of a of a social situation and narcissism

651
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: could that as well, And it's part of you just

652
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: people are so isolated right now, totally well right, I

653
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: mean you're with yourself all the time, So it makes

654
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: it a lot easier to just focus on you and

655
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: your needs and all of that stuff, right, because that's

656
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, well what do you do. You're stud your

657
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: kids and you're trying to just survive yourself, and everyone's like,

658
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: what do you got? Six months? So you're going to

659
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: become a great person, feel like, Look, but I'm so depressed.

660
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: Get out of bed, yeah, exactly, to get out of bed,

661
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: maybe eat and make it tell five so I can

662
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: start drinking, right, And but this is but this is America,

663
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: and like we're a high, a cheating culture and like,

664
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: well did you learn Spanish? Exactly? You don't know Spanish?

665
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: Did That's it? So so it's just we live in

666
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: this you know, there's a lot of pressure to perform

667
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: and uh, and it's I love it about America, you

668
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: know how anti American anyway? I love And it's also

669
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: exhausting and just pop a pandemic class they don't know

670
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: what to do just right, you know. I just want

671
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: to survive this thing and then I'll work up on

672
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: the other side. You know, Well, let's kind of talk

673
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: about that then, because you mentioned our society being such

674
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: a you know, a highly like performance based society, and

675
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: I think the pandemic has clearly rocked that for a

676
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 1: lot of people. I know that's been a huge thing

677
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 1: for me is like asking myself the questions who am

678
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: I now? Because so much of my identity was wrapped

679
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: up into my work and my public life like you

680
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: were talking about, and just validation from that and who

681
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: I work with in that celebrity world and all of that,

682
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: and when that's ripped away, you're faced with yourself and

683
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: a lot of other questions. But typically in our world,

684
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: we have this society that's super heavy focused on social

685
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: media and your appearance that way and the percept that

686
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: you're putting out there, even the reality TV stuff. I

687
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: was reading in your book that there's a high narcissistic

688
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: um personality rate amongst reality TV stars because of the

689
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: drama that they're expected to bring. And that's like a

690
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: very typical characteristic right of So can you talk a

691
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: little bit about that and just like our society are

692
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: we are we actually like creating a narcissistic society or

693
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: making it more acceptable to be narcissistic. Uh, yeah, that's

694
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: that's a lot. There's a lot in that question. I'll

695
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: just trying to break it down a little bit. But

696
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: so a few a few things you've mentioned. One is,

697
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, we build a professional identity, um, many of

698
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: us because of the breakdown and sort of work and jobs,

699
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: we all kind of our own bosh. We have to

700
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: build personal brands, right, So it's not just you just

701
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: it's not just you have to be nice, Keith. It's

702
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 1: not just you need to know a few dad jokes

703
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: to get you know, you just you know, but you

704
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: also need a brand. And so you're telling twenty year

705
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: olds you've got to build a brand, and it's it's hard.

706
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: So there's all this pressure building these social brands, and

707
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, we we build brands and we get feedback

708
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: for those you know, so here's who I am. Here's

709
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 1: my feedback, and social media, of course makes it super easy.

710
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: So here's my brand. Let me share it on the Instagram.

711
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're stylist, you're probably doing a lot

712
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: of Instagram. I don't know, but you know, yeah, that

713
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: would be you know, that's very common. See what you

714
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: want to show, what your performance and how good you are,

715
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: and and and and so you're sort of curating a

716
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: brand all the time and getting feedback, and other people

717
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: are doing the same thing, and you're constantly working on

718
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: each other and helping each other, fighting with each other

719
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: whatever to do the build these brands and this stuff,

720
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: and then it all stops and like who am I

721
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: I mean? I all I know is I'm a machine

722
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: that builds brands and an identity and gets feedback and

723
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: that feedback stops it all just kind of help to

724
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: the bottom. And that's, you know, an existential crisis. I mean,

725
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: that's kind of what happens to who am I? What

726
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: am I here for? Um? So I think that's this

727
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: is gonna this transition, I guess, you know, when I

728
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: try to think of positive stuff about the pandemic, which

729
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: I tried to do a few times, especially when I'm

730
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: really depressed by it, is it. It's going to give

731
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: people a chance to really look inward. And and a

732
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: lot of people are reflecting on what they're doing and

733
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: who they want to be. And it's just right for me?

734
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: And if it's not right, what should I do that's

735
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: more authentic or it's more real. And you know, everybody's like,

736
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 1: I'm moving to Montana. You know, everybody. I know it's

737
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: moving to Montana. You've been You've been in Montana the

738
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: winner but it's beautiful. But they never have, you know,

739
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: They're just I'm like, good for you. You know, maybe

740
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: I'll move to Montana. So so this but I think

741
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: people are having that issue. Uh, And I think this

742
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: is like what bring up but it's happened with a

743
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 1: lot of people. It's just identity is so hooked into

744
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: a rapidly moving economy and when that's gone, you know,

745
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: it all kind of calls apart. The other issue is

746
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: about how we're selecting people for a lot of these things,

747
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: and social media selects And when I use the word seless,

748
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: this is it just like an industry term. But select

749
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: for means it pulls forward, attracts, or draws in, um, narcissism.

750
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: So social media pulls for narcissism, meaning we all use

751
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: social media some another, but people in narcissistic tend to

752
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: be really better at it. They tend to have more connections,

753
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: more friends, more interactions. Um, you know, it takes selfies

754
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: and they feel good about it and they share them

755
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 1: and it's just easier for them to use social media.

756
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: Social media select for narcissism, such a grandiose narcissism, reality television,

757
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: flextra narcissism, because you you need a bunch of people

758
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: who want to be a famous for nothing except for famous.

759
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: Who who wants to do that? Well, somebody who sorted

760
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: an arcissustic like I want to be famous? Why do

761
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: you want to be? Saying I just want people to

762
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: think I'm cool? Well, that's the culture that's been created, right,

763
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: Like the Kardashians, I always use them as the example.

764
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: And first of all, I have to give you the

765
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: little note that I did a reality TV show and

766
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: it was but I was terrible at it. And that's

767
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 1: that's why this is so fascinating to me. I actually

768
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: did not enjoy it very much, but I was looking

769
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,959
Speaker 1: at it from a brand perspective of you can't beat

770
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: that exposure. However, it ended up biting me in the

771
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: ass because of my inability to do it the way

772
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: that that system is set up and um, and it

773
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: kind of backfired on me. But what I've noted is

774
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: um is just like that, you know, the the Kardashian

775
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: culture of it. They make it so it looks just

776
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: so glamorous to just get famous for doing nothing or

777
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: having a sex tape or being rich or you know,

778
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 1: any of those things, and it makes it so attainable

779
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: that I think that the culture that we've created is

780
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: one of people just like lusting after that almost, Oh,

781
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, And that's really I would love to

782
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: I want to was I'm really curious after Okay, Yeah,

783
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 1: I think this stuff is is so fascinating and I don't.

784
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: I've never been on reality television, but I've talked to

785
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: the camera people and stuff, and I've heard a lot

786
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: of it is you select people want to be famous

787
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: and then they're drinking, and people kind of set up

788
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: fights and set up drama. Producers will do this. I mean,

789
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: one person told me, so, you know, the only people

790
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: on reality television or real is Jackass. Uh forgot about

791
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: that show? Yeah, the guy was like, I worked with

792
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: jack Ass, and those guys are truly crazy. But everything else,

793
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: you know, everything else is kind of you know, there's

794
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: a lot of alcohol, it's kind of controlled. Their scripts

795
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: that are being built in all the time and narratives,

796
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's true. I haven't done

797
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: well I could tell you. I'll just tell you from

798
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: my experience. What I did end up realizing that I

799
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: enjoyed about it was that I the second season. I

800
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: was on two seasons, and the second season I kind

801
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: of just leaned in and opened up about things I

802
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: was struggling with, and that was a way for me

803
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: to connect because then I started getting, you know, on

804
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: social media, lots of messages from people who have been

805
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: through the same thing, and I really enjoyed that aspect

806
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: of it. I love to connect with people. I love

807
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: hearing stories of people who have gone through the same

808
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: thing as me, Like it just makes me feel not

809
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: so alone in this world. Um. However, the person I

810
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: was on the show very cavalley. I'll just say it,

811
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: but it was. It was a reality TVs Starve from

812
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 1: the past show, and so the way that that dynamic

813
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: was set up was it was supposed to be real

814
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: at first and then they kind of shifted as a

815
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: show needed more ratings and I just couldn't do it. Like,

816
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: I literally couldn't do it because it wasn't It's not

817
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: my wiring to just fake something. You know. It's just

818
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: like a weird dynamic to me, but it is. It

819
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: is set up like that a lot and one person

820
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: and the producers are controlling the narrative, which is just bizarre.

821
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: It's weird. But some people like it even when it's negative,

822
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: because it doesn't it's not you know, any publicity is

823
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: good publicity, right, You're getting attention, you're getting your name

824
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: out there, and like and when I you know, you've

825
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: been around celebrity, but I just say that academics like

826
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: you stick your head out out of the foxhold. Somebody's

827
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: gonna shoot you, right, generally have to people hate your

828
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. I learned that lesson. I mean, I'll

829
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: do this podcast and I'll play somebody right, you like

830
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: a Campbell? What an idiot? You don't know anything? You know?

831
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 1: And you know, Annie s fat. That's my favorite when

832
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: they come in like it has nothing to do with

833
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: what you said. That's what always chills me. It's like, God,

834
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: you're fat. I'm like, oh, hurt. That's the nature of it. Like,

835
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: that's just the nature for modern society. You know, they

836
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: put you out there and people love you know, they

837
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: it's nice getting the same. But some people just like

838
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: attention because they feel they matter and it makes sense.

839
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. Probably I'd probably go on

840
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 1: reality show Up and the Brown don't do it, don't

841
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: do it? It? Well, it feels good until it doesn't,

842
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like the attention feels nice

843
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: when it's working for you, but when it doesn't, it

844
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 1: doesn't feel so good. That's yeah, I um yeah, famous. Anyway,

845
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: it's a different beast, you know, with research, every one

846
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: you write an our icl so back in the back

847
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: in the day when Facebook came out, Um, I was

848
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: I was looking. I was like, oh my god, there's narcissist.

849
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: So I got my said Laura, I'm like, let's study this.

850
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: And that's when we just kind of first figured out

851
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,479
Speaker 1: that there was some link between the narcissism and special media.

852
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of research since, but we

853
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: first had the study. Some newspaper picked it up and

854
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: said facebookers are narcissists. That became like the headline on

855
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 1: the Drudge Report, and you know, I'm getting hate mail

856
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: and my my courson law I'm like, Laura, go talk

857
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,439
Speaker 1: to people in deep famous and she's like, I love

858
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: this thing for about a day and then a day

859
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: and it happened. It's just like, fame sucks. It's not

860
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: how was that hate mail going this? But it was

861
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: really cool because she got to go through a whole

862
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: Thames like in the day and and learned that it's

863
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: really not as great as it sounds. But but that's

864
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: a hard lesson to learn unless you do it because

865
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: because you want to be famous. This is America, of course,

866
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: and no one, no one, as much as you could

867
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: go yeah, but you're getting all this hate mail or

868
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: these bullies. Everyone's kind of like, yeah, but you get X,

869
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: Y and Z. That seems so much better. And I

870
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: guess it just depends on what's more important to you.

871
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: But for me, it wasn't worth it. Like I I

872
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: did not enjoy the death threats or the bullying or

873
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: the like. That's not worth it to me. I would

874
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: rather just go about my life, you know. But for

875
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: some people, I don't care. But that's really interesting for narcissism,

876
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: because you think about narcissism is like, you don't have

877
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: that that interpersonal love piece isn't as important. It's not

878
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: that you can't love, but that piece of love isn't

879
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: as important as that peace for being loved or being admired,

880
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: being noticed. That's interesting. So people like, you know what, Sure,

881
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: some people hate me, but I noticed, and that matters more.

882
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: When I go to bed at night, I'm sort of thinking,

883
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: n I noticed. That's pretty bitching. Yeah. And other people

884
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: are like, you know, I want to be loved and

885
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Yeah, And a lot of us, you know,

886
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: want moost. Then we go to big going in and

887
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 1: loved and my puppies here. But I kind of wish

888
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: I was famous and noticed and you know, other people

889
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: are going out. I'm famous. I wish my puppies were here.

890
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: It's a it's a tradeoff. And the other thing you

891
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: mentioned in there is I have a student who actually

892
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: studies celebrities, um Patrick, and he and what he's noticed

893
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: and some of his work is that people who are

894
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: being authentic and revealing things like uh, talking about you know,

895
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: coming out videos or coming out of crass, coming out

896
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: of gay or coming out as you know, having some

897
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: sort of trauma or whatever, people really respond to that

898
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: that it's a way that people can gain followers and

899
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: gain status. And he told me in my students just

900
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: like I said's not I don't know this as well.

901
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 1: So but what he's told me is certain people will

902
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: just do these coming out videos over and over. What

903
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: do you mean so meaning they'll they'll do a video

904
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: on YouTube and say, yeah, I just you know, I

905
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: want to talk about the depression I had in high

906
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: school and now I'm gonna still myself and I've never

907
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: shared this before, and you talk about it, and then

908
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,479
Speaker 1: six months later they go, you know, that depression video

909
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: works so well? They do it again. Talked about this much,

910
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: but let me talk about some of the depression I

911
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: suffered back in high school. Wait, so this we'll do

912
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: it again. They'll do it again. But that's okay. That's

913
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: what my question is between like these lines of what

914
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: is what is like a healthy or I don't even

915
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: know healthy is the right word, but an appropriate amount

916
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: of narcissism and like what is the difference between what

917
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 1: you just described and then like someone who's just authentically

918
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: Like when you say that, I started to think through

919
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: what I've done because I'm pretty open about a lot

920
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: of my life. But I always feel and I don't

921
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: maybe I'm just complete rely, um, not in touch with

922
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: myself at all. I don't feel like that. But like

923
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: what I feel is when i'm like it feels like

924
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: connecting with people, and like when I feel in my

925
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 1: authentic self, when I'm actually just being genuine about what's

926
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: actually going on versus like trying to make my life

927
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: seem perfect or presenting this perfect picture. And so for me,

928
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: like I have been really open, but am I just

929
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: like the way you made it sound just now is

930
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: that people use that and kind of like I'm doing

931
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: air quotes authenticity to get more followers, which doesn't feel

932
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 1: authentic at all. Actually, so every time in nature there's

933
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,879
Speaker 1: something authentic, like a poisonous snake that makes you sick

934
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 1: if you eat it, or a poisonous fish, there will

935
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: be a mimic who will do the same thing because

936
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: it works, but they won't have the authenticity. There will

937
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 1: be a butterfly that's poisonous that no one else eats,

938
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: so all the birds won't eat it, and it little

939
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: bit another butterfly that looks on the same that's pretty healthy,

940
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: and so and so what happens is um when you

941
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: have something that people respond to, like authenticity at scale.

942
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: So so talking about you know, and this is a

943
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 1: very powerful thing. If you're willing to reveal thinks about yourself,

944
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: people will respond to it. People will do that authentically

945
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: because that's other wire. They feel that there's anyway they

946
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: feel there's an authentic self and an inauthentic self. Other

947
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: people don't have that same wiring. They're they're more willing

948
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: to kind of shift themselves around for the situation. And

949
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: in the West we see that it's sort of manipulative

950
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: or inauthentic, but some sometimes that might not see it's

951
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 1: just it could be called acting and there could be

952
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 1: a skill um, and some people will will use acting

953
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: to kind of get the same rewards, so rather than

954
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: real tears, their tears might be inauthentic. But in there,

955
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: I feel like, look it's working. I'm doing this performance

956
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: and people are people are responding to it in an

957
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: authentic emotional way, just as like as I recited to

958
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: play by Yates or play the George Martin song and

959
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: see the sad country guy. I'm trying. I'm sorry, I'm

960
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: trying to relate to your audiences there with George Martin,

961
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: George Joe and that was like, yes, yes, I was

962
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: going to. I mixed up the rat pack with it

963
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: with the country pack, so you know, but but you know,

964
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: like you know George Jones, it is that guy crying

965
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: every time he sings the song. You know, the rooms

966
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: in the house. I mean, it's it's a performance. So

967
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: so I like to think that there's a lot of

968
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 1: room there, and you know, and some people are like,

969
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 1: look I can perform and really do this, and maybe

970
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: I don't feel it, but I perform, and and other

971
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: people like I really wanted to be authentic. Um, well

972
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: that that connection um of revealing parts of yourself. It's

973
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: really an important way to form relationships. But you form

974
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: them all the time. You said, doing you you know,

975
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: you tell and usually it works and you say, yeah,

976
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: I hear something about myself and I said, yeah, here's

977
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: something about it. Myself vulnerable too, and we both we

978
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: both kind of share these things a little bit and

979
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: get to know each other. Um. So it's a it's

980
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 1: a it's a really powerful way to bring people together.

981
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: But I can use that on social media to look,

982
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 1: I'm in the share part of myself. Everyone in the

983
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: audience is going, yeah, I'm in a share part of

984
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: myself with you. And I'll sudden I have like a

985
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: thousand fans. You think we're buddies, but aren't you kind

986
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: of in some ways like I didn't you connect on

987
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: the same on a level of understanding of each other?

988
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you do, you know, I think so.

989
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: I mean I have, you know, relationships with h with

990
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: artists and and did I who I've never met, but

991
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 1: I feel like I understand their emotion. Yeah, you know,

992
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: I listened to their lyrics and helps me understand how

993
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: I'm feeling. Um, you know, so I think I don't

994
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: want to say all this stuff that's good or all

995
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: this stuff is bad. I trying to look at I

996
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: try to look at things as much as possible as

997
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: trade offs. Yeah. Actually really like that tradeoff piece. I

998
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: think that's huge, especially in you know, in businesses that involved,

999
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: you know, being attractive and getting people like you just

1000
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: going to be a tradeoff and being in the public eye.

1001
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: It's really hard to people. You've talked about that, Yeah,

1002
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: but I mean it can be even in everyday life,

1003
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: even if you're not in the public eye. Like you said,

1004
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: when you go to work, you might have to put

1005
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: on a certain demeanor that if you take home, is

1006
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: not gonna consistently work in your relationships. And so I

1007
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: think that's like an interesting the tradeoff piece, or like

1008
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: you could be one way but maybe not all the time, Yes,

1009
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: and and be flexible with who you are and saying

1010
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: look on this way, here, on this way, here, underneath

1011
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: it all. I try to be a moral, ethical person

1012
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 1: who wants to grow and be you know, learn and

1013
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: grow and do good. And you know, I have this

1014
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: broader self, but I'm willing to modify it in different

1015
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: environments um to kind of get what I need and

1016
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: be a better person, right, so what do we need

1017
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: to be on the lookout? Because I mean, your book

1018
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: really kind of details the way you guys are measuring

1019
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: it these days. I do highly recommend this to you

1020
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: guys if you are interested in narcissism. It was very

1021
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. You also really break down um narcissism

1022
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: and relationships, which for me personally, it was a really

1023
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 1: great thing. I didn't know you had another book called

1024
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: When You Love a Man who Loves Himself. I'm like

1025
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: going to order that a music go ahead, and I

1026
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: am gonna say I wrote that when you Love him

1027
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: Man who Loves Himself. I wrote that when I was

1028
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 1: assistant professor and I went to so many dinners with

1029
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: women who are like, you're talking about my access that, Yeah,

1030
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, you're talking about my ex boyfriend. I just

1031
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 1: kind of wrote it's a little bit data, but it

1032
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: it gets those ideas across. I think that was the

1033
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: goal is, well, so what is it that we need

1034
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: to be on the lookout for situations like that, like

1035
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 1: in relationships and then also situations with yourself. Because, as

1036
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 1: I said, I was reading this book kind of noticing

1037
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,399
Speaker 1: some things that I was like, hmmm, I do kind

1038
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: of do that sometimes and maybe I don't like love

1039
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: that about myself. So what should we be on the lookout?

1040
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,879
Speaker 1: And when is it a worrisome trade versus or when

1041
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: is it a just a part of your personality trait

1042
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: too then like a worrisome trade or maybe even a disorder. Yeah, so, um,

1043
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: the looking at other people piece is it's hard because

1044
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 1: people who are really narcissistic don't often present that way.

1045
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: If they want you to like them, they might act

1046
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: that way if you're just waiting tables on them, but

1047
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: if you're in a dating situation at work place, if

1048
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: you're hiring them, you know, you don't see it necessarily.

1049
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: So one big thing to do with people it's just

1050
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,719
Speaker 1: look at their history. And people who in narcissistic love

1051
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: the history of wrecked relationships behind him. You'll see a

1052
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: trail of victims. Um, if you look and you see this,

1053
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: like with the meat too stuck, you're you know, one

1054
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: name will come up and they'll be ten other names.

1055
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: So there's often you know described it before as people

1056
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: are really know arcissistic, almost being like hurricanes to go

1057
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: through life and just leave a trail of destruction behind him.

1058
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: And they might seem really feeling. But you go back

1059
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: and you'll see that trail. But it's hard to do

1060
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: in yourself. You know. In our research and and and

1061
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: student Chelsea Sleep did a lot of this work. It

1062
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: was great, but she asked people. You know, the idea

1063
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: was originally, you know, years ago, I thought people in

1064
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: narcissistic district care. You're like, I'm a dick, but I

1065
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: don't care. I only care about myself. It doesn't really matter.

1066
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: And we looked at hundred of the people and it

1067
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: really seems like people in our statistics see it. It

1068
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: can be a problem. And where they see that problem,

1069
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: it's primarily interpersonal, meaning they just there's this idea I

1070
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: don't have the love or affection I need in my life.

1071
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: So they might say, yeah, I need more narcissism, but

1072
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: work because I'm not successful enough. I need to be

1073
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: more aggressive, more competitive, more lookout for number one. But

1074
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: in my in my personal life, I want more loved.

1075
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 1: And so my sense for people is if if you

1076
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: feel you're missing connection or emotional intimacy, your capacity for

1077
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: love is as smaller than it should be. I think

1078
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: those are things you can work on, and they're not

1079
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: going to mess up your work. You know, being a

1080
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 1: more loving person isn't going to make you a worse

1081
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: country music star. I mean it might. It might actually

1082
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: make you better because there's gonna be a you know,

1083
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: if somebody is gonna have to put together a production

1084
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: shoot for something, I think it's Yeah, I want Keith.

1085
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: He's not a total jerk. He's easy to get along with.

1086
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: I don't want Keith. I don't want Keith because he's

1087
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: kind of a prima donna. You know, we don't freaking diva.

1088
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: We don't need Diva on this site. We just need

1089
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: people who are cool and and work. They talk about

1090
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: this sometimes it's the no asshole rules. If you're that phrase,

1091
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: this is kind of a workplace version of it. It's

1092
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: not too much celebrity, but people. You know, there's even

1093
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: a book called the no Asshole Rule, but it's a

1094
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: policy and hiring when you say, look, even though no

1095
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: matter how talented this person is, if they're if they're

1096
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: kind of a jerk, I don't want him around. And

1097
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: so this is something organizations will use just as a

1098
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: screening device, like I don't you know, I don't care

1099
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 1: how good you are. You've got to be a decent

1100
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: human being, so that that interpersonal piece, being a nice

1101
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: person getting along with people, that's where I really try

1102
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: to focus. Okay, I really like that. The book is

1103
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: called The New Science of Narcissism. It comes out September

1104
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: twenty nine. UM Dr Campbell. Where else can people find you?

1105
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 1: Uh w Keith Campbell dot com. Okay, website and UM

1106
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: Narcissism Lab dot com. We put together a site with

1107
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: some of the narcissism tesla and there if people want

1108
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,439
Speaker 1: to try him. I think we've got three up there,

1109
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: the NPI and a Vulnerable measure UM to those two places. Nice. Okay, Well,

1110
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: you guys go check him out. Like I said, the

1111
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: book comes out on September twenty nine. I'm gonna put

1112
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: the link to purchase it in my bio of this podcast,

1113
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,439
Speaker 1: especially if you know anything about narcissism. I do feel

1114
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: like this book dives into like a little deeper of

1115
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: the study of how you guys are measuring it now,

1116
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: what you're learning. It was just it was very very

1117
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: interesting to me. So I really appreciate you being here

1118
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: and sharing all of that with us, and you guys

1119
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 1: go check out the book and thank you guys. For listening,