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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey Aaron, Welcome back.

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Speaker 2: To the Book of Joe Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci

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Speaker 2: and of course Joe Madden and Joe. It's it's that

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Speaker 2: time of year, this month of December. There are a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who find out what they're worth. So

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Speaker 2: I want to give you a choice here. It's not

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Speaker 2: quite let's make a deal because I only have two doors,

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Speaker 2: but I want you to pick either door number one

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Speaker 2: or door number two, which path we're going to go

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Speaker 2: down at least to start this edition of the Book

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Speaker 2: of Joe.

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Speaker 1: What's your choice?

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Speaker 3: My choice.

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Speaker 2: I'm not giving you a subjects you know, they don't

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Speaker 2: give you any hints, and let's make a deal.

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Speaker 4: Okay, okay, okay, I'll go Dylan Cees.

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Speaker 1: All right, that was door number one.

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Speaker 2: So you're gonna be the door where we figure out

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Speaker 2: what your value is this time of year, we're talking

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Speaker 2: obviously about free agency. At door number two is we'll

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Speaker 2: get to a Hall of Fame vote coming up another

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Speaker 2: way to establish value perpetually for that matter. But you

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Speaker 2: mentioned Dylan Cees. I found this one really fascinating. We're

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Speaker 2: starting to see some free agents drop and it's all

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Speaker 2: about the pitching market. So far, we'll talk about Ryan

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Speaker 2: Helsley and Devin Williams, a couple of late ending guys.

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Speaker 2: But Dylan Ceese is fascinating to me, Joe, and you've

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Speaker 2: seen this guy. He's got excellent stuff. He's a guy

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Speaker 2: who throws ninety seven ninety eight.

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Speaker 1: He actually spends the baseball more than anybody else in

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Speaker 1: terms of starting pitchers. And he's signing with Toronto.

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Speaker 2: And you have to really like the Toronto rotation at

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Speaker 2: this point now with Dylan Ceas and a whole year

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Speaker 2: of Trey y Savage and Kevin Gosman and on and on.

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Speaker 1: A ghost, tell me what you thought of this signing.

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Speaker 2: You have to like the fit with Toronto building on

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Speaker 2: the momentum of winning an American League pennant.

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Speaker 1: But Dylan Cees.

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Speaker 2: What is it about Dylan Cees where the results don't

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Speaker 2: match the st else?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: I mean you look at his overall record as a

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Speaker 4: major league pitcher and then you look at the number

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Speaker 4: of dollars he's getting paid to play. It's incredible, right,

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Speaker 4: I would My first thought was any old timers that's

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Speaker 4: still out there that kick butt in their in their

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Speaker 4: time frame, looks at their record.

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Speaker 3: And go wow, and again just wins and losses.

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Speaker 4: And you look at how the game is perceived today,

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Speaker 4: where you know, wins by starting pitchers aren't as valued

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Speaker 4: as they once had been. Or although I think to

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Speaker 4: the picture himself, it still is. However, it's uh the

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Speaker 4: way it's viewed. Uh, financially it's not the same.

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Speaker 3: You're right.

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Speaker 4: When I watched this guy, you wonder how I don't

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Speaker 4: know him. I never got to know him with the

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Speaker 4: Cubs before he was straighted. But just watching this might

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Speaker 4: be dumb, but how easily the manager could take the

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Speaker 4: ball away from him when he takes him out of

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Speaker 4: the game.

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Speaker 3: It just seems it's almost like.

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Speaker 4: He's been trained to to fit into that five inning

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Speaker 4: guy or six inning guy. Maybe throw X number of pitches,

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Speaker 4: throw as hard as you can. Like I said, it's

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Speaker 4: been the ball. Well, I just don't know where the

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Speaker 4: mental side of his game lies. That's it, and I

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Speaker 4: might be completely wrong, but that's that's just the perception

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Speaker 4: I get from watching. On the other hand, I think

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Speaker 4: the Blue Jays that's a great sign for the blue Jays.

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Speaker 4: I agree physically, he gives him an outstanding staff that

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Speaker 4: ballpark there, I don't know how it's playing now, meaning

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Speaker 4: Toronto Ballpark, because I remember when I was still working there,

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Speaker 4: the ball did fly and I and I think this

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Speaker 4: guy can be you know, he can make mistakes in

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Speaker 4: that ballpark that can't hurt him.

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Speaker 3: So this is like curious.

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Speaker 4: Yes, if I'm a team with all whatever, all these

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Speaker 4: different potential playoff teams next year, I would absolutely have

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Speaker 4: been in the game with with Dylan Cees.

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Speaker 3: But I'd want to know more about him.

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Speaker 4: I just don't know enough, because that's my perception from

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Speaker 4: watching from a distance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, first of all, when we look

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Speaker 2: at his era and it's not very good, right, coming

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Speaker 2: off a four point five to five season, and by

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Speaker 2: the way, there is some deferred money in this contract,

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Speaker 2: So to me, he's about a twenty six million dollars

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Speaker 2: a year pitcher, and he really equates to Carlos Verdam

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Speaker 2: the twenty seven and twenty six million for the Yankees.

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Speaker 1: The same kind of pitcher, high strike out rate.

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Speaker 2: He gets into bouts of inconsistencies because he just purely

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Speaker 2: does not throw enough strikes, and to me, he spins

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Speaker 2: the ball way too much.

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Speaker 1: He's got to change that. This guy who throws the

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Speaker 1: ball spins the ball fifty three percent of the time.

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Speaker 2: Major League gaverage is thirty one percent. He's essentially a

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Speaker 2: two pitch guy. And to me, when you throw that

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Speaker 2: much spin, hitters take it. There's nobody goes up to

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Speaker 2: the plate, very few who sit on spin. And if

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Speaker 2: Dylan Cez is gonna start you off with spin, which

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Speaker 2: he does a lot of times, and think he's gonna

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Speaker 2: throw his two strike slider and get a swing, it's

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Speaker 2: not happening. So he's consistently falling behind. When you look

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Speaker 2: at Dylan Sees' numbers, he does not do the fundamentals

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Speaker 2: of pitching well.

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Speaker 1: He is below average and throwing first pitch strikes. He's

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Speaker 1: below average and filling the zone, which is ridiculous when

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Speaker 1: you have the kind of arm that he has. And

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Speaker 1: he's below average at hitting the edges of the plate

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Speaker 1: as well. So he's pitching from behind a lot.

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Speaker 2: His ops allowed with no strikes on the batter and

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Speaker 2: he gets too many of these counts. Is over twelve hundred,

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Speaker 2: the third worst in baseball. He's in a class with

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Speaker 2: guys like Bailly Ober and JP Sears. That's not an

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Speaker 2: elite pitcher, elite stuff. Absolutely, he's a swing and miss guy.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Joe teams are looking at free agents,

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Speaker 2: they're not looking at era. They want to look at

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Speaker 2: does he get swing and miss?

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Speaker 1: And he does.

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Speaker 2: And they look at mechanics and durability injury history, and

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Speaker 2: this guy's been durable. He's taking the ball thirty two

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Speaker 2: or thirty three times five consecutive seasons.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot there to unpack. If you're the

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Speaker 1: Toronto Blue Jays and you're Pete Walker, the pitching coach,

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Speaker 1: and I've talked to him about this, he's.

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Speaker 2: Going to Robbie Ray him. That's another good comp to

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Speaker 2: Dylan Ceas. Robbie Ray couldn't throw a strike, great stuff,

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Speaker 2: high strikeout guy getting more than eleven punchouts per nine.

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Speaker 1: They got him in the zone.

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Speaker 2: That's what the Toronto Blue Jays have to do with

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Speaker 2: Dylan Cees.

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Speaker 1: I call it the ninety four percent solution.

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Speaker 2: If you throw a pitch in the strike zone first pitch,

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Speaker 2: the result is going to be positive ninety four percent

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Speaker 2: of the time. I'm talking about a swing, a miss,

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Speaker 2: a called strike, or a foul ball. Why wouldn't you

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Speaker 2: do that. That's what the Tampa Bay Rays do. They

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Speaker 2: sit in the middle of the zone with the catcher.

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Speaker 2: Fill it up in the middle of the zone at

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Speaker 2: least aim at, you know, in the strike zone first pitch,

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Speaker 2: and then you expand outward.

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Speaker 1: That's what Dylan Cees has to do. You can't be

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Speaker 1: throwing first pitch sliders on the edge of the plate

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Speaker 1: or off the edge of the plate and falling behind.

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Speaker 2: One more issue here, he was tipping his pitches and

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Speaker 2: he figured something out later in the season and was better.

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Speaker 2: But this is what happens in today's game essentially, especially

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Speaker 2: when you're essentially a two pitch pitcher, which Cease is.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot going on there for the Blue

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Speaker 2: Jays to say, you know what, with a mix of

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Speaker 2: pitches that we kind of revamp, cure the tipping problem.

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Speaker 2: This guy's going to be a dominant pitcher for us.

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Speaker 2: I can see why there's, you know, a ceiling for

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Speaker 2: Dylan Cease that he has not reached yet. So Mike

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Speaker 2: comp Sir Carlos Redon, who became a much better picture

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Speaker 2: with the Yankees by adding pitches, and I think Cease

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Speaker 2: to me has to add a two seamer.

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Speaker 1: And getting in the strike someone more.

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Speaker 2: There's the same story with Robbie Ray and with Matthew

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Speaker 2: Boyd another guy, very similar pictures, all three of them

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Speaker 2: high strikeout guys, high era, find another pitch, get in

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Speaker 2: the strike zone.

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Speaker 3: That's an awesome breakdown.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I mean, if you were you put your scouting

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Speaker 4: hat on right there, if you're sitting in a meeting

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Speaker 4: and you throw out through all of that out at me,

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Speaker 4: you're actually building a very convincing case to item. Because

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Speaker 4: what you're talking about there is that I could hear

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Speaker 4: all the Blue Jay staff, with the pitching coaches, front office, whomever,

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Speaker 4: analytical group, we could fix him.

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Speaker 3: This is very doable.

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Speaker 4: And having a history of having done in the past,

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Speaker 4: all the things you're speaking about there have a believable

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Speaker 4: component to them that they can get better. First of all,

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Speaker 4: when you talk about the breaking ball over the fastball usage,

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Speaker 4: immediately my mind goes to wherever he started or wherever

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Speaker 4: got into his head first major League wise convinced him

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Speaker 4: how good his breaking ball was and how often he

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Speaker 4: had to throw it. Now, I mean that happens in

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Speaker 4: analytical departments too. That can be part of it. I

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Speaker 4: don't know that, but that sounds like it may have

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Speaker 4: been that. It also sounds like for whatever reason, he's

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Speaker 4: not proud of his fastball, and maybe maybe you have

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Speaker 4: this too when it comes to throwing, Like if he

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Speaker 4: has command issues, does he fastball command it just seems

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Speaker 4: to be lacking. Does he actually feel like he could

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Speaker 4: throw his breaking ball for strike more consistently and he

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Speaker 4: can break the ball. And then also you kind of

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Speaker 4: alluded to, but there's two options on a break and

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Speaker 4: ball that's really good to have become a strike, one

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Speaker 4: that it's called the other one that it's chased. So

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Speaker 4: just like it's not like there's a whole lot of

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Speaker 4: stuff going on here that needs to be simplified. And again,

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Speaker 4: I think it is a good sign. I think it's

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Speaker 4: an interesting sign. Is actual baseball numbers outside of swing

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Speaker 4: and miss do not really, especially in today's game, reflect

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Speaker 4: why it should be paid that much money. But in

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Speaker 4: this world of we can fix them, and that happens, man,

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Speaker 4: and you know, we all believe we can fix somebody.

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Speaker 4: Every organization feels as though they have the secret sauce

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Speaker 4: to get a really impressive talent who's been under achieving,

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Speaker 4: and all of a sudden make him achieved to the

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Speaker 4: level that everybody deems is potential. So that's what's going

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Speaker 4: on here. I think they see it. They believe they're

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Speaker 4: better than others at doing these kind of things, and

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Speaker 4: I think that that's part of the reason why they

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Speaker 4: feel as though this is a good bet for them.

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Speaker 4: So it is a good bet on so many different reasons.

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Speaker 4: I don't know the guy, like I said, but beyond

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Speaker 4: fixing this mechanical breakdown or physical breakdown regarding percentage of

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Speaker 4: pitcherstone and how often and strike one and the importance

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Speaker 4: of all that, I'm sure he's been.

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Speaker 3: Told that before. They think they can fix.

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Speaker 4: This, and I think that's what it really breaks down to,

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Speaker 4: is that they have a lot of confidence in their group.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's stay on the theme of fixing pitchers. Orioles

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Speaker 2: signed Ryan Helsley to a two year contract, reportedly twenty

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Speaker 2: eight million dollars. There's no way around this, Joe. He

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Speaker 2: was bad with the New York Mets last year. I

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Speaker 2: mean like really bad. Twenty innings, twenty two appearances. His

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Speaker 2: era was seven point two home run rates, strikeout rate,

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Speaker 2: walk rate, all of them not good.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if the Orioles.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say they're taking a flyer on

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Speaker 2: this guy, because he's got a tremendous arm. Right, He's

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Speaker 2: another guy essentially a two pitch pitcher, but he doesn't

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Speaker 2: throw strikes. He's only in the nineteenth percentile and walk rate.

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Speaker 2: Here's what's shocking to me, Joe, He's in the seventh percentile,

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Speaker 2: which is really low in terms of exs of velocity allowed.

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Speaker 2: He got hit, and he got hit hard, and especially

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Speaker 2: his fastball. He throws ninety nine. And the slugging percentage

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Speaker 2: against Ryan Helsley's fastball last year was six sixty seven.

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Speaker 2: The batting average was over four hundred. He had the fifth.

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Speaker 1: Worst fastball in Major League Baseball, averaging ninety nine miles

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Speaker 1: per hour. And he ran away from his fastball.

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Speaker 2: He wound up throwing a lot more spin and again,

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Speaker 2: two pitch guy. And we hear this a lot, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's true to some extent, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's also sometimes a crutch. You know, partly he blamed

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Speaker 2: it on tipping his pitches. You hear about this all

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Speaker 2: the time. Nobody ever gets hit because their stuff is bad.

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Speaker 2: They always get hit because it's these pitches. But what

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Speaker 2: do you see with the Orioles, You know, taking a

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Speaker 2: flyer somewhat on Helsy at least to me as a closer, because.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't do that job in New York.

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Speaker 2: I'm not that he was going to be a closer,

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Speaker 2: but I mean late inning leverage guy. I know he

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Speaker 2: had a problem with pitching more than one inning and

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Speaker 2: getting himself ready to pitch a non ninth inning. After

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Speaker 2: the trade from Saint Louis, he should be the ninth

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Speaker 2: inning guy in Baltimore.

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Speaker 1: What do you see there in future with Hellsley and

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Speaker 1: the Orioles.

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Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I saw him with the Cardinals

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Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, and I thought he pitched

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Speaker 4: pretty well.

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Speaker 3: I loved the arm like you're talking about.

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Speaker 4: And again I wrote different notes down as you're talking

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Speaker 4: about it that when I saw him last year, man,

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Speaker 4: I really thought there was way too many breaking balls.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent that's what I thought I was seeing.

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Speaker 4: He was not proud of his fastball. It seemed as

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Speaker 4: though fastball being getting hit, so he lost confidence in

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Speaker 4: it and I'm gonna throw more breaking balls, and then

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Speaker 4: he became very predictable.

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Speaker 3: But like you said, it is a great arm. It

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Speaker 3: is a fabulous arm.

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Speaker 4: So for me, I'd be curious curious if he could

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Speaker 4: just add something soft. I don't know if that's a

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Speaker 4: change up, grip, change up once in a while, a split,

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Speaker 4: something to that effect. When you get to be his

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Speaker 4: age and what he's able or not able to do,

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Speaker 4: I would consider doing something like that. Spread your fingers

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Speaker 4: a little bit, try to throw it as hard as

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Speaker 4: you can, see what happens, see what comes out of it.

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Speaker 4: If he can get something that gets them all velocity

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Speaker 4: a I would do that, take some pressure off. Like

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Speaker 4: the two pitch mix, you get to a point in

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Speaker 4: your career sometimes you have to add something like that

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Speaker 4: if things you're doing to this point are not working.

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Speaker 4: So I'd be curious about that. As regarding what they think, however,

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Speaker 4: I think it's a good sign I do. I kind

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Speaker 4: of liked it when I saw it coming off such

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Speaker 4: a bad moment in Baltimore. The guy's got to do

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Speaker 4: a lot of soul searching and a lot of analyzation

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Speaker 4: over the offseason and try to figure out exactly what happened.

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Speaker 3: I would Baltimore's.

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Speaker 4: Position where they're at, It's not ten amount of signing kimberl.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I thought Craig was really much pretty much

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Speaker 4: at the end a couple of years ago, so when

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Speaker 4: they did that, I didn't like that sign for Baltimore

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Speaker 4: at all.

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Speaker 3: But this guy, I still think he has.

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Speaker 4: There's something left in the tank there, and I would

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Speaker 4: bet that there's They have some kind of an idea

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Speaker 4: of adding something softer to his mix in order to

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Speaker 4: get that fastball to explode more from the hitter's perspective.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's a good sign. I think it's

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Speaker 3: kind of interesting.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. Also, Devin Williams leaving the Yankees for the New

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Speaker 1: York Mets.

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Speaker 2: Now, it doesn't mean they're out on Edwin Diaz. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I think he's still a priority for them. It would

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Speaker 2: be a great back end, right if you have Williams

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Speaker 2: and Diaz.

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Speaker 1: To take care of it at least the last six outs

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Speaker 1: of the game. That's the plan.

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Speaker 2: It's not a long contract, a three year deal, fifty

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Speaker 2: one million dollars with deferral, so it's actually less so

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Speaker 2: the money is not terrible. But Devin Williams struggled at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of last season. Now he pitched better at

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Speaker 2: the end of the year, but that was his best stuff.

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Speaker 1: Was one of the Yankees took him out of the

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Speaker 1: closer's role and David Bednark came in wound up taking

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Speaker 1: those highest leverage situations. What do you see with.

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Speaker 2: Williams because we know again another two pitch guy who

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Speaker 2: relies a lot on chase, I mean a lot. He's

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Speaker 2: well below the major league gaverage on the pitches in

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Speaker 2: the zone. I look the way he throws in every

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Speaker 2: year in his career. His arm angle has gotten lower

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Speaker 2: and lower, and he's got great movement on the change up.

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Speaker 2: That airbender pitch is just an outlier pitch, but the

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Speaker 2: more hitters see it, the more they're taking that pitch.

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Speaker 2: And he's to me, not in the zone enough. Another

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Speaker 2: guy who his fastball got hit gave up five home runs.

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Speaker 1: Williams is a good sign for the Mets.

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Speaker 2: Joe, But to me, there's always concern with some of

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Speaker 2: these closers two pitch guys, whether they're tipping or whether

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Speaker 2: they're just not in the strike zone enough.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I really do like this sign. I think he's

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Speaker 4: gonna have a bounce back here. I agree with the

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Speaker 4: armslot actually saw that action. I think I asked an

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Speaker 4: MLB network.

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Speaker 3: I asked the guys.

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Speaker 4: They said, it looks to me like his arms lower,

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Speaker 4: and you're saying they reiterated that was actually true. I

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Speaker 4: think with that everything's gotten flat to a certain extent,

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Speaker 4: and I have to believe he's going to make some

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Speaker 4: kind of adjustment going to this year, his second year

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Speaker 4: in the city, in New York City. I think it's

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Speaker 4: gonna actually help him. He had a bad look, man,

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Speaker 4: he just in the beginning of the year, and even

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Speaker 4: towards the end. I mean he looked a little bit better.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a face reader. I can't help it.

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Speaker 4: He did not have the typical confidence because I seen

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Speaker 4: him really good.

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Speaker 3: I would start right there.

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Speaker 4: I would start at the arm a little bit higher,

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Speaker 4: get back to whatever his best year arm angle was,

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Speaker 4: attempt to at least, and then just cut it loose

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Speaker 4: from there, because it's like everything else, like your swing

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Speaker 4: or baseball swing, golf swing, armstroke, when that gets off

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Speaker 4: just a little bit, man, weird things happen and you're

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Speaker 4: just not the same. Whether it's a lot of times

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Speaker 4: it's unintentional, maybe an injury caused this unintentionally, or like

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Speaker 4: something was bothering him unintentionally. Could even have been something

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Speaker 4: in a lake that he was overcoming. So I like

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Speaker 4: this actually a lot. I think he's going to bounce

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Speaker 4: this year. He's getting back into the league that he

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Speaker 4: had done really well in. There's some kind of familiarity

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Speaker 4: component to that too, even though it's inbred now everybody

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Speaker 4: plays everybody else. But I kind of like this, and

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Speaker 4: I would start right there. Mariano Rivera was a one

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Speaker 4: pitch pitcher and was really good. You know, there's relief pitchers,

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Speaker 4: especially a devastating change up to me off of a fastball,

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Speaker 4: while that is the best other pitch, because his changeup

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Speaker 4: is like a split workball, whatever, it just dives it.

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Speaker 4: It's there and it's gone, and there's no not one hitter.

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Speaker 3: It's hard.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to sit on a change up and actually

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Speaker 4: do something with it, and it's that good. It's hard

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Speaker 4: to put your mind in that state of mind to

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Speaker 4: sit there. Something soft, soft, soft, So I like it.

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Speaker 4: I think he's going to do better than he did

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Speaker 4: last year. I'd like to start with the armstroke, where

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Speaker 4: is it and see why it's gotten lower, So they

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Speaker 4: could start with it there and do And I think

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Speaker 4: you suggested a fastball command.

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Speaker 3: He does. He's shotgun at times.

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Speaker 4: Man shotgun fastball really takes puts a lot more pressure

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Speaker 4: on the offs beach pitch because guys are going to

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Speaker 4: take him more often. There's no question fastball command him

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Speaker 4: getting ahead of a hitter early in account while that

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Speaker 4: changeup automatically becomes better. So it's not rocket science. That's

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Speaker 4: what he's probably thinking about right now. But I would

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Speaker 4: start with the armstroke and try to get it back

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Speaker 4: to a particular point from release, a point perspective where

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Speaker 4: it had been when he was very successful.

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Speaker 1: That's a great breakdown. Excellent stuff, Joe.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break and I promise

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Speaker 2: you we're going to talk about a Hall of Fame

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Speaker 2: vote coming up. It's one of the Era Committees of

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Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame, voting on contemporary era players. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to put you in a room, Joe, with fifteen

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Speaker 2: other people, with eight players on the ballot.

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Speaker 1: You can vote for up to three. Who are you

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Speaker 1: voting for? We'll dive into that right after this.

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Speaker 2: On the Book of Joe, Welcome back. It's the Book

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Speaker 2: of Joe podcast and it's also a Hall of Fame time,

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Speaker 2: at least when it comes to one of the era

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Speaker 2: committees of the Baseball Hall of Fame. It's a rotating

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Speaker 2: basis based on different eras of Major League Baseball history.

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Speaker 1: This is the contemporary era. Eight players are on the ballot.

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Speaker 2: You need to get seventy five percent of the sixteen

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Speaker 2: people in the room, and let's separate them out. You've

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Speaker 2: got three guys who've been tainted by steroid use, talking

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Speaker 2: about Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Gary Sheffield. And of

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Speaker 2: the same ballot you have Carlos Delgado, Jeff Kent, Don Mattingly,

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Speaker 2: Dale Murphy, and Fernando Vealezuela.

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Speaker 1: It's a really really good ballot.

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Speaker 2: Once again, you need to get three quarters of the

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Speaker 2: vote here, as you do in the regular BBWAA balloting.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about this ballot? Joan, where would

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Speaker 1: you go if you were in that room?

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Speaker 4: I missed one guy, Delgado Kent maddingly and okay, okay.

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Speaker 3: Thank you? Where would I go? No, it's not I

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Speaker 3: saw that immediately. You're right. This is this is like

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Speaker 3: you can make a case for everybody.

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Speaker 4: On that list, right, I mean everybody there, And of

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Speaker 4: course the first three guys would have been there by

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Speaker 4: now had they not been tainted it in some way. Absolutely,

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Speaker 4: as I faced Elgatto he's one of my first shift guys.

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Speaker 4: Kent in the World Series in two thousand and two,

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Speaker 4: maddingly you know what he had done is so underrated

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Speaker 4: and how good he was. And of course Valenzuela just

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Speaker 4: turned on. He was almost like a Fidrich of his time,

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Speaker 4: just really turned on the baseball world with the quirkiness

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Speaker 4: and success simultaneously. Then you get a Murphy who just

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Speaker 4: quietly went about his business and what started out as

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Speaker 4: a catcher came a center for older hit bombs, just

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Speaker 4: played the game in a in a quite elegant way.

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Speaker 4: The guys just a really really big, strong, good baseball player.

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Speaker 3: So where would I go?

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Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, I think you have to

436
00:21:15,638 --> 00:21:17,718
Speaker 4: decide whether or not how do you feel about the

437
00:21:17,718 --> 00:21:21,358
Speaker 4: first three guys, Bonds, Clements, and Sheffield in regards to

438
00:21:21,998 --> 00:21:26,078
Speaker 4: the storoid issue. At what point do you are you

439
00:21:26,118 --> 00:21:27,918
Speaker 4: going to relax it as a voter or do you

440
00:21:27,958 --> 00:21:31,758
Speaker 4: never relax it as a voter. Then you look at

441
00:21:31,798 --> 00:21:34,798
Speaker 4: maybe some other guys you might be suspicious of that

442
00:21:35,078 --> 00:21:38,438
Speaker 4: have actually maybe eventually gotten to the hall, and then

443
00:21:38,478 --> 00:21:40,718
Speaker 4: somehow in the back of your mind, I still have

444
00:21:40,758 --> 00:21:44,878
Speaker 4: suspicions whether or not these guys were using or not.

445
00:21:45,518 --> 00:21:48,758
Speaker 4: So for me, like obviously the first three guys, yes,

446
00:21:49,278 --> 00:21:52,038
Speaker 4: we could all I think easily agree belonging in the

447
00:21:52,038 --> 00:21:53,638
Speaker 4: Hall of Fame. Then I think it comes down to

448
00:21:53,758 --> 00:21:57,398
Speaker 4: your your your your voting moras. How do I feel

449
00:21:57,438 --> 00:22:00,038
Speaker 4: about this? Do I feel that it's time? Have they

450
00:22:00,078 --> 00:22:02,438
Speaker 4: have they served enough time? Or do I never give

451
00:22:02,438 --> 00:22:07,558
Speaker 4: them an opportunity? Do I equate steroids with gambling in

452
00:22:07,598 --> 00:22:12,558
Speaker 4: a sense regarding you know, going against the rules of baseball?

453
00:22:13,198 --> 00:22:16,398
Speaker 4: And do I eventually put Pete Rose in and Shuley

454
00:22:16,518 --> 00:22:19,158
Speaker 4: Joe Jackson in that group? And if they're worthy based

455
00:22:19,198 --> 00:22:21,638
Speaker 4: on what's going on in the world today where gambling

456
00:22:21,638 --> 00:22:25,158
Speaker 4: has become a part of the fabric of industrial sports

457
00:22:25,238 --> 00:22:27,758
Speaker 4: is compared to in the past. So at what point

458
00:22:27,758 --> 00:22:30,678
Speaker 4: do I get over it? Am I over it? And

459
00:22:30,838 --> 00:22:33,478
Speaker 4: just a long answer, But so that's that's where you

460
00:22:33,478 --> 00:22:36,598
Speaker 4: have to start with. I believe and if in fact

461
00:22:36,998 --> 00:22:39,398
Speaker 4: so My point is, if in fact you can get

462
00:22:39,438 --> 00:22:41,878
Speaker 4: over it, I would choose those three guys. If in

463
00:22:41,918 --> 00:22:44,558
Speaker 4: fact you can't get over it, that's among three out

464
00:22:44,558 --> 00:22:47,998
Speaker 4: of the five below that, and I really believe that

465
00:22:48,118 --> 00:22:51,238
Speaker 4: Madningly in I would go at Balanzuela in and then

466
00:22:51,438 --> 00:22:55,238
Speaker 4: after that probably Delgado. So I would go with those

467
00:22:55,238 --> 00:22:58,038
Speaker 4: three guys if if I can't choose the first three,

468
00:22:58,318 --> 00:23:01,998
Speaker 4: if my sensibilities permit, I would go Bonds, Clements, and Sheffield.

469
00:23:02,478 --> 00:23:07,318
Speaker 4: And if not, I would go with Delgado, Madningly and Balanzuela.

470
00:23:07,358 --> 00:23:11,038
Speaker 2: Otherwise, Yeah, you just spoke well about how difficult the

471
00:23:11,158 --> 00:23:11,638
Speaker 2: choice is.

472
00:23:12,238 --> 00:23:12,438
Speaker 1: Now.

473
00:23:12,438 --> 00:23:15,078
Speaker 2: Listen, Bonds and Clemens have been on one of these

474
00:23:15,118 --> 00:23:17,558
Speaker 2: ballots before. We know that they had ten shots on

475
00:23:17,598 --> 00:23:18,798
Speaker 2: the Baseball Writer's ballot.

476
00:23:18,838 --> 00:23:20,758
Speaker 1: They got two thirds of the vote, but they didn't

477
00:23:20,758 --> 00:23:22,118
Speaker 1: get the three quarters to get in.

478
00:23:22,678 --> 00:23:24,878
Speaker 2: Last time they were on one of these ballots, they

479
00:23:24,918 --> 00:23:28,678
Speaker 2: had fewer than five votes. It's definitely a lack of

480
00:23:28,678 --> 00:23:31,638
Speaker 2: support there. Think about this, Joe, you mentioned kind of

481
00:23:32,358 --> 00:23:35,598
Speaker 2: the moral question you have to raise with two of them.

482
00:23:35,638 --> 00:23:37,918
Speaker 1: To me, it's not really a moral question. It's more

483
00:23:38,038 --> 00:23:39,478
Speaker 1: like did you play fairly?

484
00:23:39,758 --> 00:23:42,198
Speaker 2: It's like the least thing you can ask of anybody

485
00:23:42,278 --> 00:23:44,998
Speaker 2: in sports, did you play on an even playing field?

486
00:23:45,038 --> 00:23:47,758
Speaker 2: And if you didn't, I'm sorry. I'm not voting for you,

487
00:23:48,158 --> 00:23:50,238
Speaker 2: and I think that's the problem here. You get into

488
00:23:50,278 --> 00:23:52,038
Speaker 2: that room, and I've been in that room.

489
00:23:51,918 --> 00:23:55,198
Speaker 1: Not for this particular committee, but you have to get

490
00:23:55,238 --> 00:23:59,558
Speaker 1: there and make an argument for people who knowingly cheated

491
00:23:59,598 --> 00:24:02,158
Speaker 1: the game. When you have people like you just mentioned

492
00:24:02,238 --> 00:24:07,318
Speaker 1: Delgatto and Matt and Murphy and Vealnezuela. You're going to

493
00:24:07,358 --> 00:24:09,398
Speaker 1: make a case for those guys.

494
00:24:09,598 --> 00:24:11,558
Speaker 2: Don't tell me that there weren't rules at the time.

495
00:24:11,638 --> 00:24:14,998
Speaker 2: Everybody knew when they were using peds they were doing

496
00:24:15,038 --> 00:24:17,598
Speaker 2: something they weren't proud of, and nobody talked about it.

497
00:24:17,638 --> 00:24:20,838
Speaker 2: And they still haven't admitted it to this day because

498
00:24:20,838 --> 00:24:22,558
Speaker 2: they know it's wrong and they know it's tainted.

499
00:24:22,838 --> 00:24:26,198
Speaker 1: It is really hard to make that argument and convince.

500
00:24:25,958 --> 00:24:28,878
Speaker 2: Three quarters of the people in any room that that

501
00:24:29,118 --> 00:24:31,318
Speaker 2: was worthy of the highest.

502
00:24:30,998 --> 00:24:33,198
Speaker 1: Individual honor you can ever get in baseball.

503
00:24:33,678 --> 00:24:36,238
Speaker 2: That's why it's so difficult for those guys not to

504
00:24:36,278 --> 00:24:39,678
Speaker 2: get votes, but to get enough votes, especially on a

505
00:24:39,718 --> 00:24:43,038
Speaker 2: ballot like this with so many good candidates. So for me,

506
00:24:43,438 --> 00:24:45,518
Speaker 2: I want to start with DoD maddingly and I want

507
00:24:45,518 --> 00:24:48,078
Speaker 2: to get your take on this, Joe, because when I'm

508
00:24:48,078 --> 00:24:52,038
Speaker 2: in that room, I would consider someone's entire contributions to

509
00:24:52,078 --> 00:24:54,598
Speaker 2: the game of baseball. Yes, you're on the ballot primarily

510
00:24:54,638 --> 00:24:56,518
Speaker 2: because of what you did as a player. And there

511
00:24:56,558 --> 00:24:59,038
Speaker 2: was a six year period there where Don Maddingley was the.

512
00:24:58,958 --> 00:25:02,118
Speaker 1: Best player in baseball. You look at the whole package.

513
00:25:02,318 --> 00:25:04,278
Speaker 1: He had a six year period where he led the

514
00:25:04,278 --> 00:25:07,958
Speaker 1: Major leagues and slugging and was a Gold Glove defender

515
00:25:07,958 --> 00:25:10,798
Speaker 1: at first base. Not just a gold Glover, one of,

516
00:25:10,878 --> 00:25:11,318
Speaker 1: if not.

517
00:25:11,278 --> 00:25:14,078
Speaker 2: The best defenders at that position or at any position actually.

518
00:25:14,838 --> 00:25:17,358
Speaker 2: But I look, he went on to manage twelve years

519
00:25:17,358 --> 00:25:20,278
Speaker 2: in the major leagues. I'm gonna draw a ven diagram

520
00:25:20,358 --> 00:25:23,918
Speaker 2: for you, Joe. Remember the ven diagrams? No, what is

521
00:25:23,958 --> 00:25:26,758
Speaker 2: it ven diagrams? Back in I don't know. I guess

522
00:25:26,758 --> 00:25:32,238
Speaker 2: it was the diagram, you know, the interlocking or intersecting

523
00:25:32,518 --> 00:25:35,558
Speaker 2: circle of subsets of things.

524
00:25:35,878 --> 00:25:37,038
Speaker 3: But I wasn't good at that stuff.

525
00:25:37,038 --> 00:25:40,238
Speaker 1: But yes, I'll keep it simple for you. There are

526
00:25:40,278 --> 00:25:43,238
Speaker 1: two hundred and ninety eight players who've had two thousand

527
00:25:43,318 --> 00:25:46,158
Speaker 1: hits in the major leagues. That's one of our circles.

528
00:25:46,518 --> 00:25:49,358
Speaker 2: Then we've got another circle of guys who have managed

529
00:25:49,478 --> 00:25:54,798
Speaker 2: eighteen hundred games. There's seventy four in that circle. If

530
00:25:54,798 --> 00:25:57,318
Speaker 2: you combine the two of them two thousand hits eighteen

531
00:25:57,398 --> 00:26:00,838
Speaker 2: hundred games managed. There's only seven people in the history

532
00:26:00,838 --> 00:26:02,918
Speaker 2: of the game that have done both, and Don Manningly

533
00:26:03,198 --> 00:26:08,358
Speaker 2: is one of those. You know, I just look at

534
00:26:08,398 --> 00:26:11,158
Speaker 2: the fact that, yeah, he didn't win a championship as

535
00:26:11,478 --> 00:26:14,758
Speaker 2: a manager, but that's twelve years of managing. I just

536
00:26:14,838 --> 00:26:18,918
Speaker 2: can't not consider for a guy who put up those

537
00:26:18,998 --> 00:26:20,558
Speaker 2: kind of numbers offensively as well.

538
00:26:20,558 --> 00:26:21,318
Speaker 1: One more thing.

539
00:26:21,198 --> 00:26:23,638
Speaker 2: For you, Joe, you saw how good of a hitter

540
00:26:23,718 --> 00:26:25,798
Speaker 2: he was. You had to defend the field against him.

541
00:26:25,878 --> 00:26:27,718
Speaker 2: I mean, you weren't shifting on him. I don't think

542
00:26:28,758 --> 00:26:31,958
Speaker 2: Since the game was integrated in nineteen forty seven, there

543
00:26:31,998 --> 00:26:35,238
Speaker 2: have been thirty three players who have been career three

544
00:26:35,318 --> 00:26:38,838
Speaker 2: hundred hitters who also totaled more than thirty three hundred

545
00:26:38,838 --> 00:26:43,358
Speaker 2: total bases. So you're talking about premier hitters of that group,

546
00:26:43,718 --> 00:26:48,878
Speaker 2: the ones with the fewest strikeouts, Tony Gwynn, Don Mattingly,

547
00:26:49,518 --> 00:26:53,318
Speaker 2: and Stam Usual. That's a pretty good company for a

548
00:26:53,318 --> 00:26:55,238
Speaker 2: guy who's not just a great hitter, but put the

549
00:26:55,238 --> 00:26:58,358
Speaker 2: ball in play. Leading the league and slugging the major

550
00:26:58,438 --> 00:27:00,998
Speaker 2: leagues and slugging over six year period and not striking

551
00:27:01,038 --> 00:27:04,718
Speaker 2: out more walks than strikeouts in his career. It's pretty incredible.

552
00:27:04,718 --> 00:27:05,958
Speaker 2: I know it was a little short because of the

553
00:27:06,038 --> 00:27:09,478
Speaker 2: back injury. He lost power as he kept playing because

554
00:27:09,518 --> 00:27:11,798
Speaker 2: of that. Well, I would take a hard look at

555
00:27:11,838 --> 00:27:13,118
Speaker 2: Don Maddingly and.

556
00:27:13,118 --> 00:27:15,358
Speaker 4: They all left tenant hitters that you described right there,

557
00:27:15,518 --> 00:27:20,158
Speaker 4: right Yeah, I think a six year window is pretty

558
00:27:20,158 --> 00:27:24,038
Speaker 4: significant to accomplish that over six years, And like you're

559
00:27:24,038 --> 00:27:26,598
Speaker 4: talking about put the entire game together. Is this just

560
00:27:26,638 --> 00:27:29,798
Speaker 4: like wins for a picture? Is it just batting average

561
00:27:29,798 --> 00:27:32,198
Speaker 4: for a hitter. I don't even know his war is

562
00:27:32,238 --> 00:27:35,438
Speaker 4: considered for his his career numbers.

563
00:27:35,438 --> 00:27:36,878
Speaker 3: I don't even know what that may look like.

564
00:27:36,998 --> 00:27:41,038
Speaker 4: But how about just the eyeball test on Maddeningly as

565
00:27:41,078 --> 00:27:43,998
Speaker 4: a Hall of Famer. As far as I'm concerned, you

566
00:27:44,078 --> 00:27:49,038
Speaker 4: said the twelve years of managing, I'd have to believe

567
00:27:49,038 --> 00:27:50,518
Speaker 4: it counts in some way.

568
00:27:50,558 --> 00:27:51,238
Speaker 3: You're correct.

569
00:27:51,358 --> 00:27:54,918
Speaker 4: You're probably thinking about Molatar, Joe Tory, Frank Robinson. I

570
00:27:54,958 --> 00:27:56,878
Speaker 4: bet you these other guys are on the list that

571
00:27:56,998 --> 00:28:01,718
Speaker 4: did something similar to that. I just think if you

572
00:28:01,798 --> 00:28:03,878
Speaker 4: check out the whole body of work, like you said,

573
00:28:04,038 --> 00:28:07,638
Speaker 4: offense defense, just as he was the captain of the

574
00:28:07,718 --> 00:28:11,038
Speaker 4: Yankees too, wasn't he for a bit? All the things

575
00:28:11,038 --> 00:28:12,998
Speaker 4: that he's done. If you if you put in one

576
00:28:12,998 --> 00:28:16,518
Speaker 4: big ball, it's pretty significant. So again, how do you

577
00:28:16,558 --> 00:28:20,718
Speaker 4: evaluate who's eligible and then who belongs in the Hall

578
00:28:20,758 --> 00:28:24,718
Speaker 4: of Fame? I think at some point you got to

579
00:28:24,758 --> 00:28:27,318
Speaker 4: go beyond numbers a little bit. I think the human

580
00:28:27,358 --> 00:28:30,198
Speaker 4: side of this thing and the whole body of work.

581
00:28:30,278 --> 00:28:33,398
Speaker 4: Again talking about the liberal arts component, liberal arts component

582
00:28:33,478 --> 00:28:35,518
Speaker 4: of the game. The fact that this guy did so

583
00:28:35,598 --> 00:28:39,358
Speaker 4: many things so well, and then, like I said, just

584
00:28:39,398 --> 00:28:43,638
Speaker 4: that six year window right there is significant. Does that

585
00:28:43,718 --> 00:28:47,038
Speaker 4: equal I don't know, four hundred ninety three home runs?

586
00:28:47,358 --> 00:28:50,718
Speaker 4: Does that equal two and fifty five wins that Bob

587
00:28:50,718 --> 00:28:53,598
Speaker 4: Gibson had. I mean, you know, there's this threshold that

588
00:28:54,038 --> 00:28:57,798
Speaker 4: sometimes guys don't reach those magic numbers. But again, if

589
00:28:57,838 --> 00:29:00,238
Speaker 4: you look at exactly what they did, yeah, that was

590
00:29:00,318 --> 00:29:01,398
Speaker 4: that was a Hall of Fame player.

591
00:29:01,718 --> 00:29:03,598
Speaker 2: It's a great point you bring up, Joe, and I

592
00:29:03,598 --> 00:29:05,598
Speaker 2: think that that's where the debate really has gone more

593
00:29:05,638 --> 00:29:10,078
Speaker 2: in recent years, is like a six year period as

594
00:29:10,078 --> 00:29:11,678
Speaker 2: the best player in the game, is that enough to

595
00:29:11,718 --> 00:29:14,318
Speaker 2: be a Hall of Famer? And traditionally, and he alluded

596
00:29:14,358 --> 00:29:16,598
Speaker 2: to this, it was the counting numbers that got you in.

597
00:29:16,638 --> 00:29:19,278
Speaker 1: You had to get some of those magic numbers, those thresholds.

598
00:29:19,678 --> 00:29:22,078
Speaker 2: But I think more and more we're looking at did

599
00:29:22,118 --> 00:29:24,878
Speaker 2: someone dominate the game over an extended period of time?

600
00:29:25,878 --> 00:29:27,478
Speaker 2: And I used to think that period would have to

601
00:29:27,518 --> 00:29:30,358
Speaker 2: be like nine, ten years, But I think the standards

602
00:29:30,398 --> 00:29:32,998
Speaker 2: a little bit different now. First of all, I think

603
00:29:33,038 --> 00:29:36,558
Speaker 2: it is harder to dominate the game just the you know,

604
00:29:36,918 --> 00:29:38,958
Speaker 2: the talent level of the game is so high across

605
00:29:38,998 --> 00:29:40,238
Speaker 2: the board, it's hard to do that.

606
00:29:40,918 --> 00:29:43,118
Speaker 1: But Dale Murphy fits in that same category.

607
00:29:43,198 --> 00:29:43,398
Speaker 3: Joe.

608
00:29:43,398 --> 00:29:45,718
Speaker 2: You talk about a six year period where he made

609
00:29:45,758 --> 00:29:48,238
Speaker 2: the All Star team every year, won five goal gloves,

610
00:29:48,278 --> 00:29:50,798
Speaker 2: two MVPs back to back, by the way, two home

611
00:29:50,878 --> 00:29:53,718
Speaker 2: run titles, two RBI titles. And he did that while

612
00:29:53,758 --> 00:29:56,118
Speaker 2: playing center field. You mentioned he was a guy catcher

613
00:29:56,198 --> 00:29:58,078
Speaker 2: starting out. They moved him out to center field. He

614
00:29:58,118 --> 00:30:01,638
Speaker 2: was a great center fielder. You look at his OPS

615
00:30:01,718 --> 00:30:04,998
Speaker 2: just when playing center field, eight to fifty f four ops.

616
00:30:06,158 --> 00:30:08,638
Speaker 2: There have been sixteen players who played at least a

617
00:30:08,678 --> 00:30:12,278
Speaker 2: thousand games in center field with an OPS that high.

618
00:30:12,358 --> 00:30:13,758
Speaker 1: That's a pretty small group.

619
00:30:13,838 --> 00:30:18,278
Speaker 2: Right of those sixteen, there's only been four of those

620
00:30:18,758 --> 00:30:21,638
Speaker 2: who won five goal gloves or more.

621
00:30:21,518 --> 00:30:23,158
Speaker 1: While playing center field.

622
00:30:23,478 --> 00:30:28,438
Speaker 2: Willie Mays, Ken Griffy Junior, Dale Murphy, and your boy

623
00:30:28,558 --> 00:30:29,318
Speaker 2: Jim Edmonds.

624
00:30:29,598 --> 00:30:29,998
Speaker 1: That's it.

625
00:30:30,398 --> 00:30:32,838
Speaker 2: Five goal gloves with an A fifty four ops in

626
00:30:32,918 --> 00:30:33,558
Speaker 2: center field.

627
00:30:33,838 --> 00:30:33,998
Speaker 3: Yeah.

628
00:30:34,038 --> 00:30:35,598
Speaker 4: I mean when you were starting to talk about them,

629
00:30:35,598 --> 00:30:36,758
Speaker 4: I immediately thought about Jim.

630
00:30:36,758 --> 00:30:39,198
Speaker 3: You know, then you added them to that list. Listen,

631
00:30:39,718 --> 00:30:41,278
Speaker 3: that's what I'm saying. You're right.

632
00:30:41,358 --> 00:30:43,238
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm glad I'm not in a position I

633
00:30:43,278 --> 00:30:45,718
Speaker 4: have to make these votes. But what you're doing right

634
00:30:45,758 --> 00:30:47,598
Speaker 4: now is exactly what I've probably would have done or

635
00:30:47,638 --> 00:30:49,318
Speaker 4: would have done, is like try to break all of

636
00:30:49,358 --> 00:30:51,918
Speaker 4: this stuff down, because the menu tay of all this

637
00:30:51,998 --> 00:30:53,798
Speaker 4: really is going to be the difference maker. Under the

638
00:30:53,798 --> 00:30:55,478
Speaker 4: hood stuff is going to be the difference maker.

639
00:30:55,478 --> 00:30:58,158
Speaker 3: If you get to choose three of these eight, you

640
00:30:58,238 --> 00:30:58,878
Speaker 3: got to go there.

641
00:30:58,958 --> 00:31:01,598
Speaker 4: Like I said, the first three, over fifty percent of

642
00:31:01,598 --> 00:31:03,598
Speaker 4: the voters are going to cross them off automatically, just

643
00:31:03,598 --> 00:31:05,998
Speaker 4: space on what had happened in their past.

644
00:31:06,278 --> 00:31:08,678
Speaker 3: So they're really going three out of five on the bottom.

645
00:31:08,718 --> 00:31:10,158
Speaker 4: So that gives you a chance to do a deep

646
00:31:10,198 --> 00:31:13,718
Speaker 4: dive into all those five guys. And so, yeah, well

647
00:31:13,758 --> 00:31:17,518
Speaker 4: you just said about Murphy is pretty outstanding, and I didn't,

648
00:31:17,558 --> 00:31:20,638
Speaker 4: you know, I didn't realize all the MVP stuff. I'm sorry,

649
00:31:20,678 --> 00:31:22,438
Speaker 4: but I didn't know that off the top of my head.

650
00:31:22,918 --> 00:31:25,118
Speaker 4: But it all makes sense. I mean, he was that good.

651
00:31:25,118 --> 00:31:27,598
Speaker 4: I mean America's team at that time. I watched them

652
00:31:27,598 --> 00:31:31,438
Speaker 4: often between WGN or TBS back in the day with

653
00:31:31,478 --> 00:31:33,078
Speaker 4: the Brave Mean on all the time. You got to

654
00:31:33,118 --> 00:31:36,318
Speaker 4: see these guys play, and he was all of that.

655
00:31:36,358 --> 00:31:40,118
Speaker 4: And I know he's a wonderful man. So again, that's it.

656
00:31:40,198 --> 00:31:42,518
Speaker 4: You have to do your own personal deep dive as

657
00:31:42,518 --> 00:31:46,598
Speaker 4: a voter and come up with your conclusions, because, like

658
00:31:46,678 --> 00:31:48,558
Speaker 4: you're just suggesting, you can make a case for all

659
00:31:48,558 --> 00:31:49,198
Speaker 4: of these people.

660
00:31:49,638 --> 00:31:51,038
Speaker 1: Can I make a case for Jeff Kent?

661
00:31:51,398 --> 00:31:51,718
Speaker 3: Sure?

662
00:31:51,958 --> 00:31:53,118
Speaker 1: Why does he get more love?

663
00:31:53,238 --> 00:31:55,478
Speaker 2: I mean, he got very little love from the writers

664
00:31:55,478 --> 00:31:57,798
Speaker 2: when he was on the ballot. This is a guy

665
00:31:57,838 --> 00:32:01,798
Speaker 2: who is His career batting average was two ninety. You

666
00:32:01,838 --> 00:32:04,318
Speaker 2: put runners out there in scoring position, he was better.

667
00:32:04,358 --> 00:32:07,158
Speaker 1: He hit three hundred. He is the highest.

668
00:32:06,758 --> 00:32:10,758
Speaker 2: Career postseason ops of any second basement in history. He

669
00:32:10,838 --> 00:32:14,678
Speaker 2: has more home runs, more hundred RBI seasons, and more

670
00:32:14,718 --> 00:32:19,438
Speaker 2: games hitting cleanup than any second basement in baseball history.

671
00:32:21,438 --> 00:32:24,398
Speaker 2: That's a pretty darn good credentials. You look at any

672
00:32:24,438 --> 00:32:27,558
Speaker 2: position on the field and the guy who had the

673
00:32:27,598 --> 00:32:30,318
Speaker 2: most home runs at that position, if you take out

674
00:32:30,638 --> 00:32:33,798
Speaker 2: Barry Bonds and steroid use, they're all in the Hall

675
00:32:33,838 --> 00:32:36,118
Speaker 2: of Fame or now by Pool's case at first base

676
00:32:36,278 --> 00:32:39,638
Speaker 2: going in and Jeff Kent, I'm not sure if he's

677
00:32:39,678 --> 00:32:42,038
Speaker 2: going to win on this ballot, because again it's a

678
00:32:42,078 --> 00:32:46,038
Speaker 2: really deep, good ballot. There's got to be a place

679
00:32:46,038 --> 00:32:47,598
Speaker 2: for a guy who hit more home runs than any

680
00:32:47,678 --> 00:32:48,918
Speaker 2: second basement in history.

681
00:32:49,798 --> 00:32:50,278
Speaker 3: I think so.

682
00:32:50,398 --> 00:32:53,398
Speaker 4: And then again, I don't want to belabor this, but

683
00:32:53,478 --> 00:32:56,198
Speaker 4: like Bobby Gritch, you look at Bobby Grich's war versus

684
00:32:56,238 --> 00:32:58,758
Speaker 4: Ryan Sandbury, and I love Ryan Sandburg, but look at

685
00:32:58,798 --> 00:33:02,798
Speaker 4: Ritchie did it? Nobody ever even talks about Ritchie. That's

686
00:33:02,838 --> 00:33:06,758
Speaker 4: another sub But what I realized was I was my

687
00:33:07,198 --> 00:33:11,958
Speaker 4: voting was leaned towards American leaguers. I saw Delgatto play,

688
00:33:11,958 --> 00:33:14,638
Speaker 4: I saw Maddingly play on the field, so I guess

689
00:33:14,758 --> 00:33:16,918
Speaker 4: automatically I went there. Kent I just saw in the

690
00:33:16,958 --> 00:33:20,158
Speaker 4: World Series. Primarily, I saw him in spring trainingsc is

691
00:33:20,198 --> 00:33:21,758
Speaker 4: at that time, you didn't see a lot of the

692
00:33:21,798 --> 00:33:25,598
Speaker 4: other league. Vealezuela was just the thing. I wasn't even around.

693
00:33:25,638 --> 00:33:27,318
Speaker 4: I was in the minor leagues pretty much. And Murphy,

694
00:33:27,318 --> 00:33:30,078
Speaker 4: like I said, was on TV. So again, yeah, listen,

695
00:33:30,198 --> 00:33:32,558
Speaker 4: Kent very dangerous. I saw himhen he was what the

696
00:33:32,558 --> 00:33:34,878
Speaker 4: Indians and the Mets right, Yes, and he do both

697
00:33:35,558 --> 00:33:38,878
Speaker 4: and he wasn't. It was just I just whenever I

698
00:33:38,918 --> 00:33:40,278
Speaker 4: saw him, I didn't see him that well.

699
00:33:40,438 --> 00:33:42,678
Speaker 3: You know, then I know what he did. I get it.

700
00:33:43,718 --> 00:33:45,318
Speaker 3: And then all the I think part.

701
00:33:45,158 --> 00:33:46,958
Speaker 4: Of the voting component of it, I just think it

702
00:33:47,038 --> 00:33:49,198
Speaker 4: might be a personality issue because I know he did

703
00:33:49,278 --> 00:33:52,718
Speaker 4: rub some people the wrong way, good, bad and different.

704
00:33:52,718 --> 00:33:56,198
Speaker 4: I'm just saying I think sometimes when you're when you're

705
00:33:56,278 --> 00:33:58,518
Speaker 4: voting or you're evaluating. To me, and I used to

706
00:33:58,558 --> 00:34:01,398
Speaker 4: have these meetings with my coaches all the time, Okay,

707
00:34:02,158 --> 00:34:04,878
Speaker 4: you need to keep the personality of this first. Okay,

708
00:34:04,878 --> 00:34:07,998
Speaker 4: I want you to evaluate the player as you're seeing it. Okay,

709
00:34:08,038 --> 00:34:09,838
Speaker 4: look at him. What are his tools all about? How

710
00:34:09,838 --> 00:34:13,638
Speaker 4: do you project the abilities? You know, hit, the five tools,

711
00:34:13,678 --> 00:34:15,718
Speaker 4: all of that. You've already brought up. What he does

712
00:34:15,718 --> 00:34:19,638
Speaker 4: with runners in scoring position, defensively, range, accuracy with armat

713
00:34:19,678 --> 00:34:21,278
Speaker 4: centa give me that and then tell me you don't

714
00:34:21,358 --> 00:34:23,718
Speaker 4: like him, Tell me you don't like him for whatever reason.

715
00:34:23,758 --> 00:34:28,038
Speaker 4: Tell you see a personality flaw that you think they

716
00:34:28,118 --> 00:34:30,718
Speaker 4: a lot Oftentimes to me, the personality flaw would be

717
00:34:30,838 --> 00:34:34,278
Speaker 4: that coaches cannot connect with the player, whereas, oh, he

718
00:34:34,318 --> 00:34:37,798
Speaker 4: doesn't listen, he doesn't retain things, whereas I for me

719
00:34:37,838 --> 00:34:39,638
Speaker 4: a lot of times was maybe just the coach didn't

720
00:34:39,638 --> 00:34:39,998
Speaker 4: say it in.

721
00:34:39,958 --> 00:34:40,638
Speaker 3: The right words.

722
00:34:40,838 --> 00:34:44,478
Speaker 4: So there's two different ways to evaluate, and for me,

723
00:34:44,598 --> 00:34:47,798
Speaker 4: the one that really should take center stage would be

724
00:34:47,918 --> 00:34:51,518
Speaker 4: the evaluation on ability and performance. That's number one, and

725
00:34:51,558 --> 00:34:54,398
Speaker 4: then interject the personality side of it. And then if

726
00:34:54,398 --> 00:34:57,518
Speaker 4: you saw some real flaws in there. I'm talking from

727
00:34:57,518 --> 00:35:00,278
Speaker 4: a team perspective, Yeah, I can influence how we like

728
00:35:00,358 --> 00:35:04,198
Speaker 4: to do business here. But in his situation, you had

729
00:35:04,198 --> 00:35:06,758
Speaker 4: a personality far or disliked from whatever reason. That should

730
00:35:06,758 --> 00:35:08,998
Speaker 4: be totally thrown in the waste basket because in this

731
00:35:09,078 --> 00:35:12,438
Speaker 4: situation it should be all about a good scouting report

732
00:35:12,438 --> 00:35:13,798
Speaker 4: and we saw him as a player and with the

733
00:35:13,878 --> 00:35:18,678
Speaker 4: numbers said and indicated. So I do believe possibly a

734
00:35:18,718 --> 00:35:21,038
Speaker 4: lot of the negative side of that was the evaluation,

735
00:35:21,318 --> 00:35:24,438
Speaker 4: you know, interaction with them, possibly turn some people off.

736
00:35:24,678 --> 00:35:25,678
Speaker 1: Yeah, you might be right.

737
00:35:25,758 --> 00:35:28,238
Speaker 2: I mean human nature, right, I mean it shouldn't factor in,

738
00:35:28,278 --> 00:35:30,918
Speaker 2: but human nature that it does. He also bounced around,

739
00:35:30,958 --> 00:35:33,878
Speaker 2: as you alluded to, a bunch of different teams. And

740
00:35:34,238 --> 00:35:36,318
Speaker 2: there's the defense. You know, people want to hold his

741
00:35:36,398 --> 00:35:38,318
Speaker 2: defense against him. Was he a great defender? And no,

742
00:35:38,518 --> 00:35:39,798
Speaker 2: But this is the way I look at it, Joe,

743
00:35:39,798 --> 00:35:42,198
Speaker 2: and I want your managers had on for this one.

744
00:35:42,758 --> 00:35:44,678
Speaker 2: There was only ten players in the history of the

745
00:35:44,678 --> 00:35:47,118
Speaker 2: game who played more games at second base than Jeff Kent.

746
00:35:47,678 --> 00:35:50,718
Speaker 2: Managers do not run guys out to a position who

747
00:35:50,798 --> 00:35:52,238
Speaker 2: can't play the position.

748
00:35:52,118 --> 00:35:55,278
Speaker 1: Year after year. And he played on really good teams.

749
00:35:55,398 --> 00:35:58,878
Speaker 2: He was in the postseason a lot with San Francisco, Houston,

750
00:35:59,158 --> 00:36:02,878
Speaker 2: you name it. So he was good enough that they

751
00:36:02,958 --> 00:36:05,038
Speaker 2: kept running him out there at second base. And when

752
00:36:05,078 --> 00:36:07,638
Speaker 2: you have a second baseman who slugs and heads clean up,

753
00:36:07,998 --> 00:36:10,358
Speaker 2: you know this, Joe, it's like having an offensive catcher.

754
00:36:10,638 --> 00:36:13,158
Speaker 2: You have an edge on the other team. That's a

755
00:36:13,278 --> 00:36:16,358
Speaker 2: huge advantage. So was he a great defender.

756
00:36:16,798 --> 00:36:20,078
Speaker 1: No, but he was a defender year after year after

757
00:36:20,158 --> 00:36:23,518
Speaker 1: year at that position on winning teams. So to me,

758
00:36:23,718 --> 00:36:25,198
Speaker 1: don't hold his defense against him.

759
00:36:25,358 --> 00:36:27,118
Speaker 4: Well, with a guy like that, then you can look

760
00:36:27,158 --> 00:36:29,358
Speaker 4: at a position that may be more offensive and get

761
00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:32,398
Speaker 4: a more defensive player to counteract the fact that this

762
00:36:32,438 --> 00:36:34,958
Speaker 4: guy's going to do so much damage at second manager

763
00:36:34,998 --> 00:36:37,558
Speaker 4: really speaking, man, I'll tell you what, when you didn't

764
00:36:37,598 --> 00:36:41,478
Speaker 4: have strong defense there at second base, that would always

765
00:36:41,518 --> 00:36:44,158
Speaker 4: bother me everything up the middle. However, I would look

766
00:36:44,198 --> 00:36:46,078
Speaker 4: back at the pitching staffs in general, and I don't

767
00:36:46,118 --> 00:36:50,518
Speaker 4: know this, but flyball versus ground ball pitchers, and then

768
00:36:50,558 --> 00:36:52,638
Speaker 4: how good were they at positioning at that time, because

769
00:36:52,678 --> 00:36:54,918
Speaker 4: that was done by lines on a chart that your

770
00:36:54,958 --> 00:36:57,758
Speaker 4: bench coach kept. So a guy like kent to me

771
00:36:58,038 --> 00:37:03,038
Speaker 4: really could survive easily if your staff was composed primarily

772
00:37:03,078 --> 00:37:06,118
Speaker 4: of flyball pitcher. And if they did, then you feel

773
00:37:06,118 --> 00:37:09,558
Speaker 4: better about him at second base. Secondarily, if that's not

774
00:37:09,638 --> 00:37:11,518
Speaker 4: the case, you really have to do a good job.

775
00:37:12,078 --> 00:37:13,998
Speaker 4: Where do I start this guy? You have to increase

776
00:37:13,998 --> 00:37:15,838
Speaker 4: his range by putting him closer to where the ball

777
00:37:15,918 --> 00:37:17,638
Speaker 4: is being hit and hit hard.

778
00:37:18,398 --> 00:37:20,398
Speaker 3: That would be like, if I'm working with him.

779
00:37:20,238 --> 00:37:22,398
Speaker 4: And I'm the charge of the defense, I would spend

780
00:37:22,398 --> 00:37:24,918
Speaker 4: a lot of time on where do I start Jeff

781
00:37:24,918 --> 00:37:28,558
Speaker 4: today regarding this whole line, because that would be part

782
00:37:28,598 --> 00:37:30,798
Speaker 4: of the way to maximize his defense.

783
00:37:31,118 --> 00:37:32,478
Speaker 3: I think in today's game.

784
00:37:32,518 --> 00:37:35,158
Speaker 4: With the analytical component, I think it would be easier

785
00:37:35,598 --> 00:37:39,998
Speaker 4: to put him in the right spot more consistently. And

786
00:37:39,318 --> 00:37:42,398
Speaker 4: I do believe, I mean, if he's an offensive second

787
00:37:42,398 --> 00:37:45,318
Speaker 4: basement like that, he would play today because after all,

788
00:37:45,358 --> 00:37:49,438
Speaker 4: analytics loves offense. Although run prevention is a big phrase utilized,

789
00:37:49,478 --> 00:37:51,558
Speaker 4: but those are the kind of my thoughts with him.

790
00:37:51,598 --> 00:37:54,278
Speaker 3: That's what I would. I would because I did.

791
00:37:54,318 --> 00:37:55,958
Speaker 4: I mean, I used to do the defense a lot

792
00:37:55,998 --> 00:37:58,478
Speaker 4: for the Angels back in the day, and I would

793
00:37:58,478 --> 00:38:02,078
Speaker 4: sit down after every game and Diego Lopez was the

794
00:38:02,158 --> 00:38:05,638
Speaker 4: video guy. I'd have Diego on a video cassette. He

795
00:38:05,678 --> 00:38:08,718
Speaker 4: would put down the twenty seven action pitches or thirty

796
00:38:08,758 --> 00:38:11,438
Speaker 4: whatever forty from the day before, and I would look

797
00:38:11,478 --> 00:38:13,998
Speaker 4: at the action pitches, whether it's a strikeout of ball

798
00:38:14,038 --> 00:38:16,798
Speaker 4: four ball and play. I'm looking at bad angles, how

799
00:38:16,798 --> 00:38:19,118
Speaker 4: the ball came off dude's bats, and I would combine

800
00:38:19,198 --> 00:38:21,198
Speaker 4: that with the actual scouting report, and then I would

801
00:38:21,198 --> 00:38:23,678
Speaker 4: try to decide for where does somebody have to be

802
00:38:23,678 --> 00:38:25,238
Speaker 4: and I would talk to him about that, and you

803
00:38:25,398 --> 00:38:28,078
Speaker 4: just watch watch bad angles and if he's late, he

804
00:38:28,118 --> 00:38:31,038
Speaker 4: looks to me late lately, he's not catching up the fastballs.

805
00:38:31,278 --> 00:38:33,158
Speaker 4: Those are the kind of things that you really want

806
00:38:33,198 --> 00:38:35,278
Speaker 4: to feed into it. Jeff Kent to make him a

807
00:38:35,318 --> 00:38:37,918
Speaker 4: better second basement. I would like to believe a lot

808
00:38:37,958 --> 00:38:39,878
Speaker 4: of that was done. But at the end of the day,

809
00:38:39,918 --> 00:38:41,958
Speaker 4: long answer, if this guy can hit to those levels

810
00:38:41,958 --> 00:38:43,798
Speaker 4: that you're talking about, he's going to play.

811
00:38:44,398 --> 00:38:47,118
Speaker 2: That's the bottom line for me, Joe, And like you,

812
00:38:47,198 --> 00:38:50,198
Speaker 2: I love defense. I think you can't separate it from pitching.

813
00:38:50,198 --> 00:38:55,598
Speaker 2: They're interconnected. But I think about this, Think about the

814
00:38:55,638 --> 00:38:58,998
Speaker 2: New York Yankees up the middle. Hori Posada got knocked

815
00:38:58,998 --> 00:39:02,198
Speaker 2: for his defense, Derek Jeter got knocked for his defense.

816
00:39:02,278 --> 00:39:04,558
Speaker 2: Bertie Williams got knocked for his defense.

817
00:39:04,918 --> 00:39:07,798
Speaker 1: What did the Yankees do every year they won with

818
00:39:07,838 --> 00:39:11,398
Speaker 1: those guys up the middle. So do I love defense?

819
00:39:11,478 --> 00:39:12,078
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

820
00:39:12,118 --> 00:39:15,118
Speaker 1: Do I trust defensive metrics? No, I don't. And I

821
00:39:15,158 --> 00:39:18,878
Speaker 1: think too many times people voters at least are working

822
00:39:18,918 --> 00:39:21,438
Speaker 1: off reputations and saying, you know what, that guy was

823
00:39:21,438 --> 00:39:23,198
Speaker 1: a good hitter, but he was not a good defender.

824
00:39:23,238 --> 00:39:26,078
Speaker 1: I'm not going to vote for him. You know that's

825
00:39:26,118 --> 00:39:30,158
Speaker 1: just gobbledegook. I mean, just watched it again. Derek Jeter

826
00:39:30,238 --> 00:39:32,398
Speaker 1: played shortstop his whole career until he was forty one

827
00:39:32,478 --> 00:39:34,798
Speaker 1: years old. You know, if he was that bad, they

828
00:39:34,838 --> 00:39:36,278
Speaker 1: would have moved him off that position.

829
00:39:36,838 --> 00:39:39,998
Speaker 4: Watch the game. Watch the game. I you know, and

830
00:39:40,038 --> 00:39:42,038
Speaker 4: I know this for a fact, as I've been told this,

831
00:39:42,118 --> 00:39:45,878
Speaker 4: and I in today's world, I think a lot of

832
00:39:45,878 --> 00:39:47,638
Speaker 4: people that are observing the game in order to write

833
00:39:47,638 --> 00:39:50,278
Speaker 4: about the game are not watching the game. They're going

834
00:39:50,318 --> 00:39:53,278
Speaker 4: to react to what's being fed to them on their

835
00:39:53,318 --> 00:39:54,998
Speaker 4: feeds during the course of the game. They're going to

836
00:39:55,038 --> 00:39:58,118
Speaker 4: react to social media commentary things like that. Are not

837
00:39:58,158 --> 00:40:00,478
Speaker 4: really going to watch what's going on, and because they're

838
00:40:00,478 --> 00:40:03,358
Speaker 4: gonna rely on statistical information to make up their mind

839
00:40:03,358 --> 00:40:07,078
Speaker 4: when it comes to and I realize that sometimes you

840
00:40:07,118 --> 00:40:09,998
Speaker 4: can be deceived, like I will have a perception of

841
00:40:10,158 --> 00:40:12,838
Speaker 4: Tom Erducci as a hitter, and then when I bring

842
00:40:12,878 --> 00:40:14,798
Speaker 4: it to my guys.

843
00:40:14,558 --> 00:40:15,998
Speaker 3: And my analytical department, they come back.

844
00:40:15,998 --> 00:40:17,718
Speaker 4: I said, could you run this because I think I'm

845
00:40:17,758 --> 00:40:19,438
Speaker 4: seeing this, And I'll come back and I say, no,

846
00:40:19,878 --> 00:40:22,918
Speaker 4: it's completely opposite of what you think you're saying. Amen,

847
00:40:23,358 --> 00:40:25,838
Speaker 4: I believe you, and I listen and then I reevaluate.

848
00:40:26,318 --> 00:40:29,558
Speaker 4: But you got to watch the game. You got to

849
00:40:29,598 --> 00:40:31,958
Speaker 4: watch the game, and that comes right down to first

850
00:40:32,038 --> 00:40:34,038
Speaker 4: steps angles, How does.

851
00:40:33,918 --> 00:40:34,318
Speaker 3: This you know?

852
00:40:34,318 --> 00:40:36,918
Speaker 4: What is this guy accuracy of his arm? Like, what

853
00:40:36,958 --> 00:40:39,958
Speaker 4: are you seeing out there? What's going on out there?

854
00:40:40,238 --> 00:40:43,078
Speaker 4: And then if you want to overlay the statistical information

855
00:40:43,198 --> 00:40:45,078
Speaker 4: over what you actually saw, go ahead and do it.

856
00:40:45,438 --> 00:40:48,358
Speaker 4: But I think in today's world, with the reliance so

857
00:40:48,518 --> 00:40:51,318
Speaker 4: much on being told what is right and wrong as

858
00:40:51,358 --> 00:40:55,718
Speaker 4: opposed to attempt to observe and use your acumen to

859
00:40:55,798 --> 00:40:59,878
Speaker 4: see things. Listen, I love ron Rennicky. I talk about

860
00:40:59,958 --> 00:41:02,478
Speaker 4: Rags all the time. Rags saw things. Rags was a

861
00:41:02,518 --> 00:41:06,318
Speaker 4: great coach, not a good coach, because Ronnie saw things anytime.

862
00:41:06,358 --> 00:41:09,638
Speaker 4: I meaning that he would pick up on nuance of

863
00:41:09,718 --> 00:41:12,558
Speaker 4: a field. There is not getting set properly, coming set

864
00:41:12,598 --> 00:41:15,558
Speaker 4: too late, moving with the wrong foot first, getting deeked

865
00:41:15,598 --> 00:41:19,078
Speaker 4: in his position, base running just in, he came, got

866
00:41:19,078 --> 00:41:21,038
Speaker 4: his lead too late, whatever whatever it might be. He

867
00:41:21,078 --> 00:41:23,798
Speaker 4: would see things. And that's what you want to be

868
00:41:23,838 --> 00:41:26,598
Speaker 4: able to do. And you only do that by disconnecting

869
00:41:26,638 --> 00:41:29,118
Speaker 4: from the ball. In other words, you're not watching the

870
00:41:29,118 --> 00:41:30,718
Speaker 4: ball from the picture's hand of the hitter where it's

871
00:41:30,758 --> 00:41:33,638
Speaker 4: hit all the time. You have to really disconnect and

872
00:41:34,038 --> 00:41:35,918
Speaker 4: spare it down in the shortstop. It's almost like the

873
00:41:35,958 --> 00:41:38,598
Speaker 4: isolated camera they used to show a lot in sports,

874
00:41:38,598 --> 00:41:41,518
Speaker 4: and they would show it on somebody and then obviously

875
00:41:41,598 --> 00:41:43,038
Speaker 4: the ball would hit in that area and then you

876
00:41:43,038 --> 00:41:45,318
Speaker 4: would see this reaction on the camera and you would

877
00:41:45,318 --> 00:41:46,838
Speaker 4: see why the play was.

878
00:41:46,758 --> 00:41:48,558
Speaker 3: Made or not play or not made.

879
00:41:48,598 --> 00:41:51,998
Speaker 4: So these are the things I just I get frustrated

880
00:41:52,038 --> 00:41:56,238
Speaker 4: with because I am so in tune to and able

881
00:41:56,278 --> 00:41:59,718
Speaker 4: to see things based on my training, and I don't

882
00:41:59,718 --> 00:42:02,158
Speaker 4: have to rely on that information all the time.

883
00:42:02,478 --> 00:42:04,358
Speaker 3: I want to overlay it and.

884
00:42:04,278 --> 00:42:06,518
Speaker 4: When I'm wrong, ask the question, is I think I'm

885
00:42:06,558 --> 00:42:08,478
Speaker 4: seeing this, Tommy, what do you got And you come

886
00:42:08,518 --> 00:42:09,998
Speaker 4: back and said, no, listen, man, I ran this and

887
00:42:10,038 --> 00:42:12,438
Speaker 4: this is here's actually what is going on. And I

888
00:42:12,478 --> 00:42:16,358
Speaker 4: accept that, but I still want to challenge myself to

889
00:42:16,478 --> 00:42:19,678
Speaker 4: utilize my acumen to see things and then combine it

890
00:42:19,718 --> 00:42:20,078
Speaker 4: with data.

891
00:42:20,598 --> 00:42:21,318
Speaker 3: I love that.

892
00:42:21,638 --> 00:42:24,558
Speaker 2: And speaking of coaches, there was a bit of news

893
00:42:24,558 --> 00:42:27,878
Speaker 2: on one of your former coaches off your World Championship,

894
00:42:27,918 --> 00:42:31,198
Speaker 2: cub Staff. We'll get into that and our final thought

895
00:42:31,238 --> 00:42:35,238
Speaker 2: of the day right after this on the Book of Joe.

896
00:42:47,118 --> 00:42:49,998
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I'm sure you

897
00:42:50,038 --> 00:42:54,798
Speaker 2: probably saw this. Joe Brandon Hyde. Hyder, released of course

898
00:42:55,038 --> 00:42:57,758
Speaker 2: during the season last year by the Orioles as their manager,

899
00:42:57,838 --> 00:43:01,878
Speaker 2: signed on with the Tampa Bay Rays as an advisor.

900
00:43:02,358 --> 00:43:05,198
Speaker 1: Interesting move, I believe. Doesn't a hider still live in

901
00:43:05,198 --> 00:43:07,038
Speaker 1: that area, the Tampa Bay area.

902
00:43:07,358 --> 00:43:08,558
Speaker 3: He's done in Sarasota.

903
00:43:08,558 --> 00:43:10,838
Speaker 4: I just talked to him right before it happened, so

904
00:43:10,878 --> 00:43:12,638
Speaker 4: I knew it had a chance that I could not

905
00:43:12,718 --> 00:43:15,638
Speaker 4: be happier. I mean, had this guy as a coach

906
00:43:15,758 --> 00:43:18,998
Speaker 4: for when I was with the Cubs. I trusted him implicitly.

907
00:43:18,998 --> 00:43:21,838
Speaker 4: The guy does his work. The guy he's not afraid

908
00:43:21,878 --> 00:43:24,478
Speaker 4: of a tough conversation. He's a baseball guy. Went to

909
00:43:24,518 --> 00:43:27,678
Speaker 4: Long Beach State. Amen, al lujah. I'll take those guys

910
00:43:28,198 --> 00:43:30,278
Speaker 4: every day of the week and twice on Sunday. They've

911
00:43:30,278 --> 00:43:33,478
Speaker 4: been they've been trained properly. They're straightforward, they don't know

912
00:43:33,518 --> 00:43:36,118
Speaker 4: how to lie. They're just they're just and they're just good,

913
00:43:36,238 --> 00:43:37,558
Speaker 4: solid baseball people.

914
00:43:38,038 --> 00:43:40,438
Speaker 3: And that's Hyder. Hyder is really good at all this.

915
00:43:40,558 --> 00:43:44,438
Speaker 4: So you know, as like I said, as a bench

916
00:43:44,478 --> 00:43:46,198
Speaker 4: coach for me and even as a first base coach

917
00:43:46,238 --> 00:43:48,878
Speaker 4: with the Cubs, and he did a lot in spring training.

918
00:43:48,878 --> 00:43:51,798
Speaker 4: He helped run all these spring training God, I would watch it.

919
00:43:51,798 --> 00:43:54,278
Speaker 4: It was precise. He had a sense of humor. He

920
00:43:54,358 --> 00:43:57,918
Speaker 4: takes charge of the situation. You're not He's not a pushover.

921
00:43:57,998 --> 00:44:00,598
Speaker 4: You're not going to mess with him. He has opinions,

922
00:44:00,598 --> 00:44:02,678
Speaker 4: he knows what he believes in all of this stuff.

923
00:44:03,358 --> 00:44:05,118
Speaker 4: So I could not happier I talked him about It

924
00:44:05,158 --> 00:44:06,478
Speaker 4: was so jack when he told me.

925
00:44:06,878 --> 00:44:07,958
Speaker 3: And it's a great fit for him.

926
00:44:07,998 --> 00:44:09,638
Speaker 1: I believe, Yeah, that is a great fit.

927
00:44:09,678 --> 00:44:12,358
Speaker 2: And everything you said about him obviously is true, especially

928
00:44:12,358 --> 00:44:14,638
Speaker 2: your part about you know, don't.

929
00:44:14,438 --> 00:44:16,358
Speaker 1: Mess with him if you're not playing the game the

930
00:44:16,438 --> 00:44:18,918
Speaker 1: right way. But I've always thought.

931
00:44:18,718 --> 00:44:22,438
Speaker 2: Of a Hyter just as a truly authentic, honest guy, right,

932
00:44:22,518 --> 00:44:24,678
Speaker 2: that's right. You know, he speaks the truth and nothing

933
00:44:24,718 --> 00:44:26,518
Speaker 2: but the truth. And in this game, I think that

934
00:44:26,638 --> 00:44:29,038
Speaker 2: stands out. And I always say that's if you want

935
00:44:29,038 --> 00:44:30,918
Speaker 2: to be a great coach or a manager, it has

936
00:44:30,998 --> 00:44:34,278
Speaker 2: to start with that. You know, players you know this, Joe,

937
00:44:34,358 --> 00:44:37,438
Speaker 2: they'll see through it if you're just blowing smoke. I

938
00:44:37,598 --> 00:44:39,038
Speaker 2: never got any of that from Hyder.

939
00:44:39,478 --> 00:44:44,518
Speaker 4: Is impossible, It doesn't. It doesn't possess that he's just

940
00:44:44,638 --> 00:44:47,198
Speaker 4: not capable of doing that. He's he I'm telling you

941
00:44:48,358 --> 00:44:51,398
Speaker 4: my time spend in Southern California. We've talked about this before.

942
00:44:51,798 --> 00:44:54,518
Speaker 4: One of the most cherished parts about that is the

943
00:44:54,598 --> 00:44:58,998
Speaker 4: baseball people that help me, help nurture me to do

944
00:44:59,038 --> 00:45:02,718
Speaker 4: what I eventually did. It's a it's a conservative bastion

945
00:45:02,838 --> 00:45:06,278
Speaker 4: of baseball Southern Collifornia for at least formerly the coaches,

946
00:45:06,318 --> 00:45:10,238
Speaker 4: head coaches, scouts in general, right down to Babbeloo, Bob.

947
00:45:10,078 --> 00:45:11,598
Speaker 3: Clear my mentor with the Angels.

948
00:45:11,598 --> 00:45:14,118
Speaker 4: I mean, these guys, God, if you did not want

949
00:45:14,158 --> 00:45:16,438
Speaker 4: to hear the answer, please don't ask the question, because

950
00:45:16,438 --> 00:45:19,198
Speaker 4: they're not going to dissemble. They're going to tell you straightforwardly.

951
00:45:19,918 --> 00:45:21,998
Speaker 4: And the only way to do that if you're going

952
00:45:22,038 --> 00:45:25,958
Speaker 4: to help make somebody better. There's a great line honesty

953
00:45:25,998 --> 00:45:27,718
Speaker 4: without compassion equals cruelty.

954
00:45:27,878 --> 00:45:30,958
Speaker 3: So these guys they just didn't know that.

955
00:45:31,078 --> 00:45:34,358
Speaker 4: They just told you. And that's where it was raised.

956
00:45:34,358 --> 00:45:36,798
Speaker 4: That's Hider was raised. That's how he was raised. It's

957
00:45:36,798 --> 00:45:39,918
Speaker 4: the only way to be raised. And that's why the

958
00:45:39,958 --> 00:45:42,078
Speaker 4: guy from that neck of the woods are so good

959
00:45:42,598 --> 00:45:44,798
Speaker 4: and I have such a warm fuzzy about it, right

960
00:45:44,838 --> 00:45:47,678
Speaker 4: down to Jim Deets, who recently passed away at San

961
00:45:47,718 --> 00:45:50,678
Speaker 4: Diego State. Deeker was the guy that got Tony Gwynn

962
00:45:50,678 --> 00:45:54,958
Speaker 4: to go to San Diego State. I worked with Diets

963
00:45:55,038 --> 00:45:59,958
Speaker 4: in Boulder, Colorado, in nineteen nineteen eighty and God, I mean,

964
00:45:59,998 --> 00:46:01,638
Speaker 4: I don't know if I've ever met anybody worked harder

965
00:46:01,718 --> 00:46:05,198
Speaker 4: than he did, or cared more than he did, and

966
00:46:05,638 --> 00:46:09,918
Speaker 4: taught the game. Jimmy would get on the ground literally

967
00:46:10,118 --> 00:46:13,238
Speaker 4: when a guy was hitting somebody's throwing a batting practice.

968
00:46:13,238 --> 00:46:16,318
Speaker 4: He would get bellied on the ground and he arms out.

969
00:46:16,358 --> 00:46:20,158
Speaker 4: He would hold the guy's feet and ankles and move

970
00:46:20,238 --> 00:46:22,478
Speaker 4: the feet and ankles as the ball was coming in

971
00:46:22,758 --> 00:46:24,998
Speaker 4: to teach him how to move his feet properly. Who

972
00:46:25,038 --> 00:46:27,998
Speaker 4: does that? Who does that? I mean, these guys were nuts.

973
00:46:28,438 --> 00:46:31,158
Speaker 4: He actually put the lights up. He put the lights

974
00:46:31,478 --> 00:46:34,518
Speaker 4: on the light towers at San Diego State. He got

975
00:46:34,638 --> 00:46:36,638
Speaker 4: up on the towers themselves and put the lights in

976
00:46:36,918 --> 00:46:37,718
Speaker 4: to save money.

977
00:46:37,958 --> 00:46:40,558
Speaker 3: So all these dudes in southern California, I'm telling.

978
00:46:40,358 --> 00:46:44,358
Speaker 4: You, man, high school coaches, junior college coaches, all of

979
00:46:44,398 --> 00:46:49,158
Speaker 4: them spectacular. And I'm always I'm going off on a tangent.

980
00:46:49,198 --> 00:46:52,078
Speaker 4: But that's Wherehyder comes from. And he was taught properly,

981
00:46:52,438 --> 00:46:53,798
Speaker 4: and that is the best and.

982
00:46:53,838 --> 00:46:54,638
Speaker 3: Only way to coach.

983
00:46:54,918 --> 00:46:55,758
Speaker 1: That's very cool.

984
00:46:55,838 --> 00:46:57,638
Speaker 2: I've never heard about a guy beating on the ground

985
00:46:57,638 --> 00:47:00,918
Speaker 2: as a hitting coach to move his feet bellied down.

986
00:47:01,078 --> 00:47:03,318
Speaker 4: I saw it in Boulder. I couldn't believe it, could

987
00:47:03,398 --> 00:47:03,918
Speaker 4: not believe it.

988
00:47:04,078 --> 00:47:05,998
Speaker 2: Of course, Heider was a just a couple of years

989
00:47:06,038 --> 00:47:08,558
Speaker 2: ago Manager of the Year. I look back at this, Joe,

990
00:47:08,558 --> 00:47:11,998
Speaker 2: between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three, the twelve Managers

991
00:47:11,998 --> 00:47:15,078
Speaker 2: of the year, eight of them are no longer managing.

992
00:47:15,318 --> 00:47:17,518
Speaker 2: Eight of the twelve that wasn't that long ago, folks,

993
00:47:18,318 --> 00:47:22,118
Speaker 2: buckshow Walter, Gabe, Kapler, Dob Manningly, Mike Schilt, Bright, Snicker,

994
00:47:22,158 --> 00:47:25,038
Speaker 2: Bob Melvin Rockobell Delli, and Brandon Hyde.

995
00:47:25,478 --> 00:47:29,158
Speaker 1: So hopefully, if Hyde does want to manage again, hopefully

996
00:47:29,158 --> 00:47:32,198
Speaker 1: there's another opportunity for him in this game. But good

997
00:47:32,238 --> 00:47:35,358
Speaker 1: to year. He's sticking around with the Rays and sticking

998
00:47:35,398 --> 00:47:36,078
Speaker 1: around at home.

999
00:47:36,798 --> 00:47:39,998
Speaker 2: That brings us to our final thought, Joe, we've been

1000
00:47:40,038 --> 00:47:41,998
Speaker 2: over the map, all over the map a little bit today,

1001
00:47:42,078 --> 00:47:45,518
Speaker 2: but we're talking about valuation, free agents, Hall of Fame.

1002
00:47:46,878 --> 00:47:48,638
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what you've got in mind, whether that

1003
00:47:48,718 --> 00:47:51,718
Speaker 2: dovetails with some of our topics today, but it's always interesting.

1004
00:47:51,758 --> 00:47:52,558
Speaker 1: What do you got today?

1005
00:47:52,798 --> 00:47:55,118
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, weirdly I did.

1006
00:47:55,158 --> 00:47:56,958
Speaker 4: I had five of them or four of them circle

1007
00:47:56,998 --> 00:47:59,478
Speaker 4: for today because I was not certain how about me?

1008
00:48:00,918 --> 00:48:03,638
Speaker 4: And I went with I had a Mark Twain list

1009
00:48:03,638 --> 00:48:06,998
Speaker 4: of stuff went in doubt quote Mark Twain.

1010
00:48:08,038 --> 00:48:09,758
Speaker 3: So I don't know. But there's a couple that I

1011
00:48:09,798 --> 00:48:10,278
Speaker 3: really liked.

1012
00:48:10,318 --> 00:48:12,958
Speaker 4: I'm just and you could fit these in any way

1013
00:48:12,998 --> 00:48:15,398
Speaker 4: you want, but they're really short, which I like, and

1014
00:48:15,558 --> 00:48:16,598
Speaker 4: they're always perceptive.

1015
00:48:16,638 --> 00:48:17,158
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna go.

1016
00:48:17,518 --> 00:48:20,478
Speaker 4: I'm gonna start with number twenty four because I really

1017
00:48:20,558 --> 00:48:24,398
Speaker 4: like this one a lot. A lie can travel halfway

1018
00:48:24,438 --> 00:48:27,278
Speaker 4: around the world where the truth is putting on its shoes.

1019
00:48:27,558 --> 00:48:31,438
Speaker 3: Wow. Do I love that? We all know that, And that's.

1020
00:48:31,238 --> 00:48:34,478
Speaker 4: A really part of today's culture in general. I think, okay,

1021
00:48:34,558 --> 00:48:37,718
Speaker 4: number five, Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is

1022
00:48:37,758 --> 00:48:40,918
Speaker 4: because fiction is obliged to stick to the possibilities.

1023
00:48:41,318 --> 00:48:41,998
Speaker 3: Truth isn't.

1024
00:48:42,278 --> 00:48:46,838
Speaker 4: Wow, And again, wear that as you like wherever you

1025
00:48:46,878 --> 00:48:49,078
Speaker 4: find yourself on Whenever you find yourself on the side

1026
00:48:49,118 --> 00:48:51,998
Speaker 4: of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

1027
00:48:52,038 --> 00:48:55,438
Speaker 4: And I've known that since the seventies. I love that one, right,

1028
00:48:55,518 --> 00:48:58,878
Speaker 4: because sometimes you almost want to run away, for I

1029
00:48:58,918 --> 00:49:01,478
Speaker 4: do oftentimes, and I guess I've been accused of I'll

1030
00:49:01,558 --> 00:49:04,398
Speaker 4: run away from the crowd because the when you get

1031
00:49:04,398 --> 00:49:08,918
Speaker 4: this group think going on, man, And when group think occurs,

1032
00:49:09,798 --> 00:49:12,718
Speaker 4: it's the it's the head, it's the leader, it's whomever

1033
00:49:12,958 --> 00:49:16,238
Speaker 4: the dictator might be of that group. That's regardless of

1034
00:49:16,278 --> 00:49:18,758
Speaker 4: how open they want to make it appear. At the

1035
00:49:18,838 --> 00:49:21,878
Speaker 4: end of the day, that's the voice and only voice

1036
00:49:21,918 --> 00:49:23,518
Speaker 4: that's going to count. Maybe that's the right way to be.

1037
00:49:23,598 --> 00:49:27,918
Speaker 4: I don't know, but when you get to those majority groups,

1038
00:49:27,918 --> 00:49:30,878
Speaker 4: and man, I've always been a part of the minority.

1039
00:49:30,918 --> 00:49:32,958
Speaker 3: And I love this one, and I'll save this for last.

1040
00:49:32,998 --> 00:49:35,358
Speaker 4: I've had a lot of worries in my life, most

1041
00:49:35,358 --> 00:49:36,558
Speaker 4: of which never happened.

1042
00:49:36,878 --> 00:49:39,558
Speaker 3: And it's true. And I was just talking to Wendy

1043
00:49:39,598 --> 00:49:40,318
Speaker 3: about that the other day.

1044
00:49:40,318 --> 00:49:42,278
Speaker 4: I mean, we always worry about stuff, and we always

1045
00:49:42,318 --> 00:49:43,318
Speaker 4: fabricate worry.

1046
00:49:43,718 --> 00:49:45,238
Speaker 3: And when you do that, you don't stay.

1047
00:49:45,038 --> 00:49:47,438
Speaker 4: In the present tense often enough, and it takes you

1048
00:49:47,518 --> 00:49:51,518
Speaker 4: off on these tangents. And really there's a big energy

1049
00:49:51,558 --> 00:49:54,878
Speaker 4: loss in that when you constantly permit yourself to go

1050
00:49:54,918 --> 00:49:55,798
Speaker 4: off on tangents.

1051
00:49:55,798 --> 00:49:59,678
Speaker 3: So remember that you have a lot of worries in life.

1052
00:49:59,798 --> 00:50:03,398
Speaker 4: I don't even know over ninety percent, maybe ninety over

1053
00:50:03,478 --> 00:50:04,998
Speaker 4: ninety five percent never happened.

1054
00:50:05,438 --> 00:50:08,838
Speaker 1: Wow, that's some great stuff. Mark Twade. By the way,

1055
00:50:08,958 --> 00:50:11,078
Speaker 1: Hall of Famer, doubt first ballot of.

1056
00:50:11,078 --> 00:50:13,038
Speaker 3: Hall of Fame, first ballot, exactly.

1057
00:50:14,038 --> 00:50:17,038
Speaker 1: I love the part about the majority as well, Joe.

1058
00:50:17,078 --> 00:50:20,198
Speaker 1: I mean where that phrase the wisdom of the crowd

1059
00:50:20,398 --> 00:50:23,398
Speaker 1: came from? Man, run away from that. That's the way

1060
00:50:23,438 --> 00:50:24,118
Speaker 1: I look at it.

1061
00:50:24,438 --> 00:50:28,198
Speaker 4: Don't walk run Absolutely, that's correct. Hey, Tommy, let me

1062
00:50:28,198 --> 00:50:31,478
Speaker 4: tell you about something. On December seventeenth down here in

1063
00:50:31,518 --> 00:50:35,518
Speaker 4: Tampa at Alva Restaurant, We're going to have a thanks Miss.

1064
00:50:35,518 --> 00:50:41,158
Speaker 4: Thanks missus my invention kind of where you serve the homeless.

1065
00:50:41,158 --> 00:50:43,158
Speaker 4: And I chose the word thanks miss because I wanted

1066
00:50:43,198 --> 00:50:46,678
Speaker 4: to indicate these people are in need to need our

1067
00:50:46,678 --> 00:50:49,038
Speaker 4: help regardless of the time of the year. We always

1068
00:50:49,038 --> 00:50:53,478
Speaker 4: tend to focus on helping other people during holidays. Thanks

1069
00:50:53,478 --> 00:50:55,878
Speaker 4: Miss to me indicated any any time of the year,

1070
00:50:55,878 --> 00:50:58,278
Speaker 4: and I was really zeroing in on any date between

1071
00:50:58,558 --> 00:51:01,478
Speaker 4: Thanksgiving and Christmas to come up with thanks Miss. But

1072
00:51:01,518 --> 00:51:05,358
Speaker 4: we've been doing it since two thousand and six. Excuse me,

1073
00:51:05,398 --> 00:51:08,518
Speaker 4: since the pandemic, it's gone more difficult, been doing it

1074
00:51:08,558 --> 00:51:11,238
Speaker 4: in Pennsylvania, but but bringing it back as a fundraiser

1075
00:51:11,958 --> 00:51:15,598
Speaker 4: at AVA on December seventeenth. Got thirty celebs involved already.

1076
00:51:15,998 --> 00:51:17,678
Speaker 4: Coach Sean Cooper is going to be there, a Jason

1077
00:51:17,758 --> 00:51:22,118
Speaker 4: Light from the Bucks, Freddie McGriff working on some Maddy Joyce,

1078
00:51:22,878 --> 00:51:24,678
Speaker 4: some guys that used to be with the Rais and

1079
00:51:24,758 --> 00:51:27,758
Speaker 4: working on some present rays and some others. Hopefully you

1080
00:51:27,838 --> 00:51:30,398
Speaker 4: can try to trap Coach Gruden to come on down

1081
00:51:30,438 --> 00:51:32,558
Speaker 4: to it also, But anyway, it's going to be like

1082
00:51:32,598 --> 00:51:35,678
Speaker 4: thirty dudes there and also Brittany Linsey Come's going to

1083
00:51:35,678 --> 00:51:38,278
Speaker 4: be there, so she's wonderful. We're going to serve this

1084
00:51:38,278 --> 00:51:41,838
Speaker 4: petty meatball sausage and homemade piogi would be a part

1085
00:51:41,878 --> 00:51:43,478
Speaker 4: of this. We got one hundred and fifty that we

1086
00:51:43,518 --> 00:51:45,638
Speaker 4: could handle. You're going to get a copy of the

1087
00:51:45,678 --> 00:51:50,198
Speaker 4: Book of Joe and a beanie that indicates the thanks Massana.

1088
00:51:50,278 --> 00:51:53,958
Speaker 4: We have tables at twenty five hundred dollars sponsorships up

1089
00:51:53,998 --> 00:51:56,278
Speaker 4: to a ten thousand dollars sponsorship, and I think general

1090
00:51:56,318 --> 00:51:59,198
Speaker 4: admissions one hundred and fifty bucks and it's going to

1091
00:51:59,198 --> 00:52:01,398
Speaker 4: be sold out. It almost already is so, but I

1092
00:52:01,438 --> 00:52:03,358
Speaker 4: wanted to put it out there. Anybody's insted it in

1093
00:52:03,398 --> 00:52:05,678
Speaker 4: the air in the area, get in touch with us

1094
00:52:06,958 --> 00:52:10,558
Speaker 4: and I could get you that information. Even if you

1095
00:52:10,718 --> 00:52:15,038
Speaker 4: just called Ava the restaurant Ava Ava seven eighteen South

1096
00:52:15,078 --> 00:52:18,558
Speaker 4: Howard Avenue in Tampa, they'll be able to give you

1097
00:52:18,598 --> 00:52:21,198
Speaker 4: information how to get this done. Anyway, it's just the

1098
00:52:21,198 --> 00:52:22,998
Speaker 4: beginning of it. I have other plans. I want to

1099
00:52:22,998 --> 00:52:25,278
Speaker 4: get it rolling again. I want to bring back thanks

1100
00:52:25,278 --> 00:52:27,438
Speaker 4: here in Florida, which we are. I want to get

1101
00:52:27,438 --> 00:52:29,318
Speaker 4: it back in Pennsylvania, want to do it in Chicago.

1102
00:52:29,358 --> 00:52:32,598
Speaker 4: Those that'll be my triangle to work with. And it

1103
00:52:32,638 --> 00:52:36,558
Speaker 4: is it's for the homeless, and we try to we

1104
00:52:36,958 --> 00:52:39,478
Speaker 4: do serve them, we honor them at that point. We

1105
00:52:39,798 --> 00:52:42,558
Speaker 4: do attempt to give them a gift every place that

1106
00:52:42,638 --> 00:52:46,758
Speaker 4: we serve at and it could be anywhere from one

1107
00:52:46,798 --> 00:52:49,278
Speaker 4: hundred people to two hundred and fifty three hundred people

1108
00:52:49,278 --> 00:52:52,638
Speaker 4: that attend on a particular night. So anyway, that's the

1109
00:52:52,918 --> 00:52:55,798
Speaker 4: cliff notes. If you're in Tampa, come by and see

1110
00:52:55,878 --> 00:52:58,678
Speaker 4: us again. It's the first and I really want to

1111
00:52:58,718 --> 00:53:00,638
Speaker 4: try to make it a part of spring training somehow,

1112
00:53:00,878 --> 00:53:02,998
Speaker 4: and that would be my next idea and I'll keep

1113
00:53:02,998 --> 00:53:03,758
Speaker 4: you posting on that.

1114
00:53:03,958 --> 00:53:05,078
Speaker 1: Oh that is awesome, Joe.

1115
00:53:05,198 --> 00:53:09,238
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it's super important to remember those less fortunate,

1116
00:53:09,398 --> 00:53:13,158
Speaker 2: especially this time of year. Wish all the best with

1117
00:53:13,238 --> 00:53:15,878
Speaker 2: that event and all the people helping you with that.

1118
00:53:15,958 --> 00:53:17,838
Speaker 2: And by the way, I have been to Ava and

1119
00:53:18,158 --> 00:53:20,918
Speaker 2: it's awesome, so good luck with that event.

1120
00:53:21,118 --> 00:53:23,918
Speaker 3: Thank you man. Food's great. Thank you, Jail. Jail.

1121
00:53:24,158 --> 00:53:26,358
Speaker 4: Our chef is actually making a homemade piolgi for this

1122
00:53:26,758 --> 00:53:28,118
Speaker 4: and I sampled it the other night.

1123
00:53:28,158 --> 00:53:29,758
Speaker 1: Outstanding, great stuff.

1124
00:53:29,838 --> 00:53:30,038
Speaker 3: Joe.

1125
00:53:30,038 --> 00:53:32,038
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.

1126
00:53:32,238 --> 00:53:35,438
Speaker 3: See you, Tommy.

1127
00:53:41,638 --> 00:53:44,878
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1128
00:53:45,078 --> 00:53:50,078
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1129
00:53:50,198 --> 00:53:51,958
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