WEBVTT - What We Might Learn in the Affidavit for Trump Search 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Bresso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.119 Much of our work is by necessity conducted out of 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:17.000 the public eye. We do that to protect the constitutional 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.639 rights of all Americans and to protect the integrity of 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.360 our investigations. Despite the intention of Attorney General Merrick Garland 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.080 and the Justice Department to keep secret the details of 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:34.199 its investigation and unprecedented search of former President Donald Trump's 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.800 Moral Lago estate, the federal judge who approved the search 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:43.200 warrant has other ideas. US Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhardt ruled 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.879 that portions of the FBI affidavit used to secure the 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.519 search warrant should be unsealed, and he gave the government 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.200 until noon on Thursday to propose what information in the 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.000 affidavit should be kept secret. Joining me as former federal 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:02.800 prosecutor Jennifer Rogers electure at Columbia Law School, Jennifer, are 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.760 you surprised that the judge has decided to release parts 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:11.399 of that FBI affidavit? Yes, I was really surprised. I, 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.680 along with basically every other legal commentator I saw, I 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.479 thought that there was virtually no chance the judge would 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.360 do that. I guess the judge was just convinced here 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.839 that there's such great public interest in this that, assuming 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.360 it can be properly redacted, the public ought to be 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:28.600 able to see portions of it. So now the big 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.559 question turns to what redactions will the judge except from 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.800 d o J. Just how unusual is it to unseal 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.760 an affidavit while the investigation is still going on. It's 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:43.400 very unusual, and usually it's because the person whose property 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.240 has been searched has no interest in the public learning 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:50.200 about that and learning about the investigations that is likely 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.200 targeting that person, So you know, you don't typically have 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.480 people wanting these things publicly released. This, of course, is 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.040 a unique situation where Trump wants to try to turn 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.600 it to his advantage and claim he's being targeted and 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.200 so on. So that's why we are where we are. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.080 And also, of course Trump isn't the party that moves 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.440 to unseal. It was media organizations. Media doesn't typically care 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.600 about your average search warrants explain what kind of information 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.320 normally goes into an affidavits supporting a search want request, 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:27.720 So it's not the entire investigation necessarily, but what it 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.919 has to do is established probable cause that at least 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.760 one crime has been committed and that evidence of that 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.600 crime can be found at the scene that is to 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.440 be searched. So they have to go through the information 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.760 that leads to that conclusion. So in this case, I 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:47.880 assume that it goes through however they learned that there 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.800 were potentially documents that should not have been at Mara 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.799 Lagos there. It likely goes through the negotiations with Trump's team, 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:58.679 the back and forth that they had the boxes that 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.799 worst these by National Archives. However, they determined that there 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:07.240 were still things outstanding, the further negotiations, the subpoena, and 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.520 then ultimately, however, they reached a conclusion that there still 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.560 were items outstanding that were likely at Moral Lago That 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:19.880 may include statements from witnesses who saw documents there. It's 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:24.280 essentially the evidence that establishes to a judge of satisfaction 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.440 not be under reasonable doubt, not even by a preponderance, 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.799 but at least that there's probable cause to believe this 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.400 crime has been committed and you can find the evidence there. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.320 And importantly, it has to be that the evidence is 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.520 there at the time they're going to search. It can't 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.200 be at one time there was evidence there. It has 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.360 to be fairly fresh. J. Brad, the Justice Department's counter 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:50.040 intelligence chief, argued that the ongoing investigation would be severely compromised, 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.840 including the names of agents and witnesses, and that there 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:58.200 was a threat of possible obstruction and interference in the investigation. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.520 In a case where the judge has already found probable 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:06.000 cause that there's a violation of one of the obstruction statutes. 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.880 That sounds pretty convincing to me at least. Yeah, I mean, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.840 and that's why it's so critical what the judge does 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.720 with the request for redaction, because you know, there's really 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.159 no point in releasing a document if virtually everything in 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.760 it is redacted and you can't learn anything. I mean, 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.359 that doesn't assist the public and this matter of great importance, 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.359 as the judge has determined. On the other hand, I 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.360 think the judge should take seriously the Justice Department's concerns 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.000 about its investigation and the integrity of the investigation, and 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:41.120 of course the safety of most primarily witnesses, not just 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.560 their safety, but that they should not be tampered with, 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.080 of course, So you know, weighing all of that, the 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.400 question is how extensive. Will the redactions speak? You know, 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.240 there's some information in the public already about these negotiations 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.000 between Trump's team and the National Archives and then eventually 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.960 the FBI. Some of that seems like it could come 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.760 out and not be redacted. That would be safe. You know. 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.040 The things I expect to be redacted are whatever source 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:10.040 information they received that these documents are still at Moral 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.960 Lago and exactly where they are. That's the sort of 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.560 information you would think would be redacted. And then of 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:19.240 course anything else sensitive that they think would jeopardize the 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.719 ongoing nature of the investigation will likely be redacted to 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.760 But I expect they can release some of this, particularly 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.080 about the back and forth with Team Trump and his 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.680 lawyers and the National Archives and SBI. I think we'll 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.520 see some of that. Do you think we'll learn more 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:38.280 about the classified documents that they were looking for. That's 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.680 an interesting question. I certainly who were certainly not going 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:47.000 to see any information that's specific enough that itself is classified. 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.320 You know, In other words, we're not going to hear, oh, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.960 it's a cable that talks about you know, Russia's nuclear 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.359 program and says that it's you know, X, Y and 0:05:55.440 --> 0:06:00.440 Z but would the judge entertain releasing some gen neural 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:06.039 information about the nature of the documents? Um, I'm not sure. 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.120 I mean maybe if the judge determines that that that 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.960 information doesn't jeopardize the investigation. I mean, that seems to 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.560 be where he will likely draw the line. So we 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.320 could learn more, but it'll be fairly general. The judge 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.480 gave the Justice Department a week to propose what information 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.200 the documents should be kept secret, and he said he'll 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.880 propose his own redactions if he disagrees with their. So 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.359 is he trying to send a message to them, don't 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:39.280 redact everything, or I'm going to do my own stuff. Oh? 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.440 Of course, of course he's saying, be reasonable, you know, 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.279 don't send me a document that that redacts everything except 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.080 the the BUZ and the a's in the end, you know, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.800 the articles. Um, so sure he's saying, don't do this, 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.599 but you know they should be reasonable anyway, you know. 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.120 And and I suspect, you know, what usually happens is 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.159 the o J is a little bit too conservative and 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.800 the judge may push back a little bit. So you 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.080 know what, we'll have to see what we end up with. 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.360 I mean, hopefully the public will be able to learn 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:14.400 a bit more without jeopardizing the investigation or any of 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:16.880 the witnesses. I mean, I think that's what all of 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.400 us wants. What does it tell you that one of 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:24.040 Trump's attorneys attended the court hearing but declined to comment 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.920 other than to say Trump wants the affidavit unsealed. So 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:29.880 it's interesting. So, of course Trump has been saying for 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.880 days that he wants the affidavit unsealed. But my view 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.880 is he doesn't really want it unsealed. He wants to 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.240 see it because he wants to identify people who have 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.240 provided information to the government against him. But does he 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.280 really want it fully unsealed? Does he really want the 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:48.920 public to be able to see the basis for the 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.400 probably cause to believe that crimes have been committed? In 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:53.720 evidence of those crimes, you know, is at Mara Lago, 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.280 I don't think so. So. I think the reason that 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.320 he had a lawyer there but didn't actually make a 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.640 formal legal filing calling for the unsealing, joining in the 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.400 media's request really shows that he actually doesn't want it 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:09.920 in public, He just wants to know within it. Now, 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.440 he said he'd allow the government time to appeal his ruling. 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.360 Is that something you think the Justice Department might actually 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.840 do appeal? I think they might appeal if in the 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.440 end they feel that the judge's ruling releases too much information. 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.120 So we'll we'll have to wait and see what the 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.080 outcome of that is. But yet, certainly, if they think 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:35.160 that their investigation is jeopardized, or certainly any classified material 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:37.520 is jeopardized by what the judge wants to be released, 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.520 I think they will appeal. Thanks Jennifer. That's former federal 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:45.160 prosecutor Jennifer Rogers. We will not talk about this until 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.679 it's over. It's a grand jury and grand juries, as 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.199 I recall, a secret Rudy Giuliani appeared before the Georgia 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:57.679 grand jury investigating criminal efforts to overturn the election on Wednesday. 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.680 Giuliani was told that he's now target of the investigation 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.720 that Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis has been conducting 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.959 for more than a year. We're gonna look at everything 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.960 until that investigation is complete. It's not known what Giuliani 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.760 said in his six hours in the closed door session, 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:21.000 but he made several appearances before Georgia lawmakers promoting conspiracy 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.160 theories and claiming that he had evidence of widespread voter fraud. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.960 You can see them counting the ballots more than once, two, three, four, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.160 or five times. You would have to be a moron 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.319 not to realize if that voter fraud. Joining me is 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:40.520 Elizabeth Widra, president of the Constitutional Accountability Center. Rudy Giuliani 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.040 was told by Atlanta prosecutors that he's a target in 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.440 their investigation. Is it unusual to call a target to 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.480 testify before the grand jury? Why would he answer any 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.040 questions when he's the target? Well, I think that's a 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.920 very good question. You know, if you are called before 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.720 a grand jury, you can be called as a witness, 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.880 you know, simply a material witness, or you can be 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.920 called as a target. And we understand that he is 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.360 a target, and that means that the grand jury and 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.520 the prosecutor likely have substantial evidence that linked him to 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.280 a crime, and he could very likely be charged. So 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:21.360 I think there is a very very strong likelihood that 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:25.600 he invoked the Fifth Amendment privilege against self incrimination and 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.480 declined to answer questions. You know, he could have also 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.800 tried to put forth this attorney client privilege, but I 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.160 don't think that really would relate to most of the 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.600 questions of allegations of crime, because they simply weren't taking 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.559 place in conversations between him and Donald Trump. And also 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.840 there's a client fraud exception to the attorney client privilege, 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:48.160 which doesn't allow you to assert that privilege over fraudulent 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:53.640 criminal conversation. On his podcast on Monday, Giuliani said, quote, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.479 as I recall correctly, I appeared in Georgia as attorney 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.800 for Donald J. Trump, So I'm going to be prosecuted 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.720 for what I did as an attorney. Does that theory 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.760 make sense to you? No, it doesn't make a lot 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.920 of sense. You know, it's unclear whether Julian was on 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.560 a mission from Trump as his attorney in George or not. 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.719 But the real gist of the matter is when he 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.000 was making these public statements that the you know, for example, 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:23.120 to the Georgia send a judiciary committee hearing about election integrity, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.680 you know, in which he spread conspiracy theories about what 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:30.240 he referred to his widespread irregularities, which there's been absolutely 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.560 no evidence bound that that has any merit whatsoever. You know, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.920 whether those are part of an unlawful, coordinated attempt to 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:41.199 alter the outcome of the elections, and that's not protected 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.800 by any type of attorney relationship. If Juliani made statements 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.520 at legislative hearings in Georgia falsely claiming that there have 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.760 been widespread voter products, so he testified before the grand 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.679 jury for about six hours, does that length of time 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.600 mean that he didn't take the fifth for every question 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.199 or didn't invoke attorney client privilege, or could it take 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.320 that long just to have them ask questions and answer? 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.439 In other words, does the time tell us anything? The 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.280 time doesn't necessarily tell us what happened. You know, he 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.840 could very well have pleaded the fifth to every question 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:23.160 and they simply had six hours worth with breaks, of course, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:27.560 a question to ask him, because very frequently prosecutors who 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.400 are investigators will continue to ask the questions even if 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.079 they know that the witness is going to invocus fifth, 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.719 and so you know, it definitely does go faster than 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.000 if the witness gave a full answer to the questions. 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.640 It nonetheless does take quite a bit of time. Among 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:47.920 the potential crimes that the d. A. Willis is investigating 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.560 is making false statements to state and local government bodies, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.120 as well as solicitation of election fraud and conspiracy. Since 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:01.480 Giuliani's statements before Georgia lawmakers have been proven, does it 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.719 seem like it would be difficult for him to get 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:10.160 around a charge of making false statements to state government bodies. Right, 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.640 And that's why in some ways claims about attorney client privilege, 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.400 you know, don't really make sense in this instance, because 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.199 Juliani was making public comments. They were during a legislative 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.880 committee hearing. They have been televised, you know, we've seen 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.880 the tape. So these statements are out there, and the 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.960 fact that they are false is incredibly well known, even 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.000 if some people continue to refuse to accept that truth. 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.920 And so we know that the scope of the investigation 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.560 that D. A. Willis is undertaking includes the call between 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.760 Trump and Rappensburger, which call between Rappensburger and Senator Graham, 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:48.000 and also include these false comments made by Juliani. And 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.120 so given that it is so clear cut, it could 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:55.200 be an important first step for this investigation to charge 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.560 Juliani and then go from there. You know, I think 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.360 also it would be in a important steps for the 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:06.160 nation because we have continually heard these false claims of 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.120 election abroad about the twenty elections. They've been said over 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.600 and over publicly by Donald Trump and his allies without 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.880 really any consequence or accountability, And so I think to 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:21.920 have some actual accountability attached to those false statements could 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.320 be a way of finally getting more people on board 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.400 with the actual truth that there wasn't wide spread election 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.200 fraud of the twenty twenty election. And so I think 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.760 charging Giuliani for those false statements would be an important 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.840 step in the d A investigation and could be an 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.320 important step for the country as well. Atlanta prosecutors have 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:46.120 also told sixteen Trump fake electors that their targets. But 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:51.200 this focus on Giuliani brings that investigation right into Trump's 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:55.240 inner circle. Giuliani went from being a material witness to 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:59.320 being a target. So is Trump far behind or is 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.880 that a bridge to far? You know, We certainly don't know. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.200 We can speculate based on what the DA is investigating. 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.760 And one of the things she is specifically investigating is 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:13.440 a phone call between Donald Trump himself and Wrapping Burger. 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.160 And so if that particular call is part of the 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:21.560 scope of the investigation, obviously that directly involves Trump. And 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.600 so I think that if I were Donald Trump, I 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.760 would continue to be nervous about this investigation. Willis has 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.880 said that the investigation could result in a multi defendant 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:38.880 racketeering or conspiracy case. She's brought rico cases before, and 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.480 so does it seem like the time that she's taking 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.240 and the people that she's calling in before the grand 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.440 jury lead to a conclusion that it's a bigger case 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.960 than we might have anticipated when she started. Yes, well, 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.840 I think that that often happens with grand juries, because 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:58.760 you know, part of the reason you have a grand 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.520 jury when you're engaged an investigation is to have the 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:07.760 authority to subpoena witnesses and information because there are limits 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.920 to getting people to willingly participate in your investigation. Is 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.480 so very frequently after you and panel a grand jury, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.960 you will learn new things. So I think that it 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:21.560 would be not surprising at all if her investigation did 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:26.240 continue to turn up additional evidence of criminal activity and 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:31.400 unlawful activity. Willis has said that the investigation could result 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:36.680 in a multidefendant racketeering or conspiracy case. She's brought rico 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.880 cases before, and so does it seem like the time 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.440 that she's taking and the people that she's calling in 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.960 before the grand jury lead to a conclusion that it's 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:54.880 a bigger case than we might have anticipated when she started. Yes, well, 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.760 I think that that often happens with grand juries because 0:16:58.440 --> 0:16:59.960 you know, part of the reason you have a grand 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.720 jury when you're engaged in investigation is to have the 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.720 authority to subpoena witnesses and information because you know there 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.440 are limits to getting people to willingly participate in your investigation. 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.080 Is so very frequently after you and panel a grand jury, 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.560 you will learn new things. So I think that it 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:23.240 would be, um, not surprising at all if her investigation 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:28.440 did continue to turn up additional evidence of criminal activity 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:34.080 and unlawful activity. And um, we know that just from 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:38.040 the January six committee hearings that there were a lot 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:43.440 of tentacles to this effort to Keith Donald Trump empowered 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.399 despite the votes in the election. And you know in 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:52.120 Georgia in particular, President Biden one by nearly twelve thousand bots. Um. 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.760 So you know, it wouldn't be surprising if the grand 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:01.560 jury investigation turned up additional evidence and the tard Its group, 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.800 as you mentioned Senator Lindsey Graham and also to other 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:10.680 lawyers who represented Trump during the election, tried to challenge 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.600 the subpoenas. Graham was turned down and Jenna Ellis, the 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.720 attorney was turned down John Eastman, it's still up in 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:22.479 the air. The judge is not being intimidated or playing 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.080 around with this, neither is the d A. Is it 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.919 unusual to have these national figures being called to a 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.200 grand jury by a county d A. So there's there's 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.520 very little that is normal about this, but it is, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:44.040 I would say appropriate. You have state and local laws 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:50.000 that apply to everyone, whether you're you know, powerful or 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:55.199 power less, whether you're um infamous statist or just a 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.160 regular person, and you know it. So this is very 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.840 unusual because we have this coordinated effort going up to 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.760 the former president of the United States to overturn the 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.040 will of the people, and it happens to be centered 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.119 in Fulton County, Georgia. But in many ways, you know, 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.479 the president and his allies took the fight to Sultan 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:22.119 County by making these unsubstantiated claims of election of fraud 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.199 that they claimed took place in Fulton County. And the 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:29.200 fact is that no election fraud took place, No widespread 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.199 election fraud took place, in Fulton County. And so the 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:37.760 Fulton County d A is pushing back against this conspiracy 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:42.639 to try to overturn the results of the people who 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.720 voted in that county and the people across the nation 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.479 who voted to put Joe Biden into power instead of 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:55.359 Donald Trump. And so it certainly is high profile, of course, 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.440 but I think that what we're seeing is a d 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.400 A and a judge and a and jury who are 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.880 not afraid to really stand up to say no one 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:09.119 is above the law, and we are going to require 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:13.359 you to comply with the law, even if we're, you know, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:18.800 just a little county in Georgia. Our laws apply to everyone, 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:24.160 including you. Thanks so much, Elizabeth. That's Elizabeth Widerette, president 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:30.840 of the Constitutional Accountability Center. Alan Weisselberg, the Trump organization's 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:35.760 longtime chief financial officer, pleaded guilty to evading taxes on 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.960 a free apartment and other perks amounting to more than 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.680 one point seven million dollars worth of untaxed extras, striking 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.639 a deal with prosecutors that could make him a star 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.399 witness against the company. At a trial this fall. The 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:54.639 seventy five year old acknowledged guilt on all fifteen charges. 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.360 As part of his plea agreement, Weislberg will spend five 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.439 months behind bars, followed by five years of probation. He 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.119 also agreed to pay nearly two million dollars in back taxes, 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.200 penalties and interest. Joining me as Greg Farrell Bloomberg News 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:15.080 investigative reporter for the Legal Enforcement Team. Is this plea 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:19.920 deal Weislberg flipping on Trump? No, not in the sense 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.840 that we understand flipping as being let's say Michael Cohen 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.760 several years ago, where this Cohen describes he decided to 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.520 plead guilty, and he testified to the best of his knowledge, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.040 including against Trump in the Stormy Daniel's case and related cases, 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.640 and eventually has really been aggressive in promoting that. Weizelberg's 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.560 trying to walk a fine line he wants to and 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:46.000 succeeded in reducing exposure to life five months maximum. He's 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.280 the guy seventy that matters. I mean, he might get 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.760 you know, less than that, and he's playing guilty to 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.399 fifteen charges and he will be required, if called, to 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.680 testify in the rest of the trial against the Trump organization, 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.040 to testify about what he did. So it's not like 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.080 ratting out Donald Trump personally saying I was in the 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.919 room with him and did this, but just providing testimony 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:09.320 that as an official, the guy who actually controlled the 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.560 finances and the payments, et cetera of the company, it's 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:15.600 going to be very damaging to the organization and implicitly 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.080 to Trump himself. I looked at it in a different way. 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:23.239 He didn't implicate Trump or his family, and he's not 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.399 going to testify about Trump and his family, and he 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:31.560 hasn't cooperated with prosecutors in their broader investigation into Trump, 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.440 So why give him a deal? I think the prosecutors 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:37.520 a must have realized that despite the fact that he's 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.560 facing fifteen years, a guy his age on something like 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:42.119 this where there's not a lot of case history is 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.160 probably not at awhere near that, and then the effort 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.040 and manpower going into prosecuting him versus the value he 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.800 would have to testify in court about his role there, 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.200 like publiclarations. Wise, it's already a victory, you know, because 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:57.720 everybody was giving up on Alvin Bragg when the investigation 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.600 of Trump were dead, you know, when those two star 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.560 appointees of Civance left, and now this is very much 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:07.359 back in the game. So it's a momentum for the 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.160 d a's office if they want to continue pursuing Trump himself. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.040 It cuts out a very toilsome part of the trial 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:16.359 against an individual, and it's much tougher to get a 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.639 criminal conviction of a guy who seventy five years old, 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:21.960 and you generate some sympathy for him that it isn't 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:25.920 an organization. People just don't care about finding an organization guilty. 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.200 The organizations not going to jail. So there are several upsides, 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.120 you know, embedded in this for the prosecution, right. So, 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:35.280 and the fact that the Trump organization sent out a 0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:38.760 statement that I had done nothing wrong and look forward 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.679 to going to trial, and the company called Wisselberg a 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:46.160 fine and honorable man, So they're happy that he kept 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:48.800 his mouth shut, at least as far as Trump is concerned. 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:51.800 So let's talk a little bit about the criminal investigation 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.520 to Trump, which you referenced. So there was this push 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:59.720 when Civance was prosecutor to try to pursue this criminally, 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.840 and we went up to the Supreme Court to get 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:06.520 the tax documents, push, push, push, and then Alvin Brad 0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:10.280 comes in and nothing. He says, it's still going on. 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.040 But is it is there an investigation going on? This 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:18.159 is a a complex story, so to simplify it, you 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:22.280 are correct. The former district attorneys I Vance Um embarked 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:26.119 on this prosecution several years ago after a Bloomberg story. 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.760 A story in Bloomberg News pointed out that you know, 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.359 Wislberg had been paying for the Trump organization, had been 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.520