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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Bresso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Much of our work is by necessity conducted out of

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Speaker 1: the public eye. We do that to protect the constitutional

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Speaker 1: rights of all Americans and to protect the integrity of

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Speaker 1: our investigations. Despite the intention of Attorney General Merrick Garland

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Speaker 1: and the Justice Department to keep secret the details of

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Speaker 1: its investigation and unprecedented search of former President Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: Moral Lago estate, the federal judge who approved the search

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Speaker 1: warrant has other ideas. US Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhardt ruled

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Speaker 1: that portions of the FBI affidavit used to secure the

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Speaker 1: search warrant should be unsealed, and he gave the government

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Speaker 1: until noon on Thursday to propose what information in the

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Speaker 1: affidavit should be kept secret. Joining me as former federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutor Jennifer Rogers electure at Columbia Law School, Jennifer, are

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Speaker 1: you surprised that the judge has decided to release parts

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Speaker 1: of that FBI affidavit? Yes, I was really surprised. I,

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Speaker 1: along with basically every other legal commentator I saw, I

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Speaker 1: thought that there was virtually no chance the judge would

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Speaker 1: do that. I guess the judge was just convinced here

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Speaker 1: that there's such great public interest in this that, assuming

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Speaker 1: it can be properly redacted, the public ought to be

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Speaker 1: able to see portions of it. So now the big

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Speaker 1: question turns to what redactions will the judge except from

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Speaker 1: d o J. Just how unusual is it to unseal

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Speaker 1: an affidavit while the investigation is still going on. It's

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Speaker 1: very unusual, and usually it's because the person whose property

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Speaker 1: has been searched has no interest in the public learning

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Speaker 1: about that and learning about the investigations that is likely

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Speaker 1: targeting that person, So you know, you don't typically have

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Speaker 1: people wanting these things publicly released. This, of course, is

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Speaker 1: a unique situation where Trump wants to try to turn

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Speaker 1: it to his advantage and claim he's being targeted and

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Speaker 1: so on. So that's why we are where we are.

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Speaker 1: And also, of course Trump isn't the party that moves

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Speaker 1: to unseal. It was media organizations. Media doesn't typically care

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Speaker 1: about your average search warrants explain what kind of information

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Speaker 1: normally goes into an affidavits supporting a search want request,

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Speaker 1: So it's not the entire investigation necessarily, but what it

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Speaker 1: has to do is established probable cause that at least

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Speaker 1: one crime has been committed and that evidence of that

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Speaker 1: crime can be found at the scene that is to

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Speaker 1: be searched. So they have to go through the information

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Speaker 1: that leads to that conclusion. So in this case, I

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Speaker 1: assume that it goes through however they learned that there

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Speaker 1: were potentially documents that should not have been at Mara

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Speaker 1: Lagos there. It likely goes through the negotiations with Trump's team,

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Speaker 1: the back and forth that they had the boxes that

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Speaker 1: worst these by National Archives. However, they determined that there

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Speaker 1: were still things outstanding, the further negotiations, the subpoena, and

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Speaker 1: then ultimately, however, they reached a conclusion that there still

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Speaker 1: were items outstanding that were likely at Moral Lago That

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Speaker 1: may include statements from witnesses who saw documents there. It's

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Speaker 1: essentially the evidence that establishes to a judge of satisfaction

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Speaker 1: not be under reasonable doubt, not even by a preponderance,

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Speaker 1: but at least that there's probable cause to believe this

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Speaker 1: crime has been committed and you can find the evidence there.

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Speaker 1: And importantly, it has to be that the evidence is

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Speaker 1: there at the time they're going to search. It can't

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Speaker 1: be at one time there was evidence there. It has

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Speaker 1: to be fairly fresh. J. Brad, the Justice Department's counter

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Speaker 1: intelligence chief, argued that the ongoing investigation would be severely compromised,

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Speaker 1: including the names of agents and witnesses, and that there

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Speaker 1: was a threat of possible obstruction and interference in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: In a case where the judge has already found probable

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Speaker 1: cause that there's a violation of one of the obstruction statutes.

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Speaker 1: That sounds pretty convincing to me at least. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and that's why it's so critical what the judge does

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Speaker 1: with the request for redaction, because you know, there's really

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Speaker 1: no point in releasing a document if virtually everything in

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Speaker 1: it is redacted and you can't learn anything. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't assist the public and this matter of great importance,

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Speaker 1: as the judge has determined. On the other hand, I

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Speaker 1: think the judge should take seriously the Justice Department's concerns

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Speaker 1: about its investigation and the integrity of the investigation, and

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Speaker 1: of course the safety of most primarily witnesses, not just

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Speaker 1: their safety, but that they should not be tampered with,

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Speaker 1: of course, So you know, weighing all of that, the

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Speaker 1: question is how extensive. Will the redactions speak? You know,

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Speaker 1: there's some information in the public already about these negotiations

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Speaker 1: between Trump's team and the National Archives and then eventually

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Speaker 1: the FBI. Some of that seems like it could come

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Speaker 1: out and not be redacted. That would be safe. You know.

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Speaker 1: The things I expect to be redacted are whatever source

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Speaker 1: information they received that these documents are still at Moral

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Speaker 1: Lago and exactly where they are. That's the sort of

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Speaker 1: information you would think would be redacted. And then of

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Speaker 1: course anything else sensitive that they think would jeopardize the

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Speaker 1: ongoing nature of the investigation will likely be redacted to

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Speaker 1: But I expect they can release some of this, particularly

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Speaker 1: about the back and forth with Team Trump and his

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Speaker 1: lawyers and the National Archives and SBI. I think we'll

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Speaker 1: see some of that. Do you think we'll learn more

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Speaker 1: about the classified documents that they were looking for. That's

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Speaker 1: an interesting question. I certainly who were certainly not going

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Speaker 1: to see any information that's specific enough that itself is classified.

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Speaker 1: You know, In other words, we're not going to hear, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a cable that talks about you know, Russia's nuclear

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Speaker 1: program and says that it's you know, X, Y and

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Speaker 1: Z but would the judge entertain releasing some gen neural

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Speaker 1: information about the nature of the documents? Um, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe if the judge determines that that that

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Speaker 1: information doesn't jeopardize the investigation. I mean, that seems to

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Speaker 1: be where he will likely draw the line. So we

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Speaker 1: could learn more, but it'll be fairly general. The judge

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Speaker 1: gave the Justice Department a week to propose what information

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Speaker 1: the documents should be kept secret, and he said he'll

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Speaker 1: propose his own redactions if he disagrees with their. So

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Speaker 1: is he trying to send a message to them, don't

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Speaker 1: redact everything, or I'm going to do my own stuff. Oh?

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Speaker 1: Of course, of course he's saying, be reasonable, you know,

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Speaker 1: don't send me a document that that redacts everything except

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Speaker 1: the the BUZ and the a's in the end, you know,

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Speaker 1: the articles. Um, so sure he's saying, don't do this,

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Speaker 1: but you know they should be reasonable anyway, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and I suspect, you know, what usually happens is

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Speaker 1: the o J is a little bit too conservative and

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Speaker 1: the judge may push back a little bit. So you

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Speaker 1: know what, we'll have to see what we end up with.

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Speaker 1: I mean, hopefully the public will be able to learn

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Speaker 1: a bit more without jeopardizing the investigation or any of

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Speaker 1: the witnesses. I mean, I think that's what all of

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Speaker 1: us wants. What does it tell you that one of

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Speaker 1: Trump's attorneys attended the court hearing but declined to comment

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Speaker 1: other than to say Trump wants the affidavit unsealed. So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. So, of course Trump has been saying for

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Speaker 1: days that he wants the affidavit unsealed. But my view

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Speaker 1: is he doesn't really want it unsealed. He wants to

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Speaker 1: see it because he wants to identify people who have

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Speaker 1: provided information to the government against him. But does he

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Speaker 1: really want it fully unsealed? Does he really want the

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Speaker 1: public to be able to see the basis for the

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Speaker 1: probably cause to believe that crimes have been committed? In

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Speaker 1: evidence of those crimes, you know, is at Mara Lago,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. So. I think the reason that

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Speaker 1: he had a lawyer there but didn't actually make a

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Speaker 1: formal legal filing calling for the unsealing, joining in the

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Speaker 1: media's request really shows that he actually doesn't want it

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Speaker 1: in public, He just wants to know within it. Now,

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Speaker 1: he said he'd allow the government time to appeal his ruling.

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Speaker 1: Is that something you think the Justice Department might actually

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Speaker 1: do appeal? I think they might appeal if in the

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Speaker 1: end they feel that the judge's ruling releases too much information.

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Speaker 1: So we'll we'll have to wait and see what the

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Speaker 1: outcome of that is. But yet, certainly, if they think

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Speaker 1: that their investigation is jeopardized, or certainly any classified material

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Speaker 1: is jeopardized by what the judge wants to be released,

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Speaker 1: I think they will appeal. Thanks Jennifer. That's former federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutor Jennifer Rogers. We will not talk about this until

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Speaker 1: it's over. It's a grand jury and grand juries, as

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Speaker 1: I recall, a secret Rudy Giuliani appeared before the Georgia

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Speaker 1: grand jury investigating criminal efforts to overturn the election on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: Giuliani was told that he's now target of the investigation

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Speaker 1: that Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis has been conducting

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Speaker 1: for more than a year. We're gonna look at everything

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Speaker 1: until that investigation is complete. It's not known what Giuliani

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Speaker 1: said in his six hours in the closed door session,

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Speaker 1: but he made several appearances before Georgia lawmakers promoting conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories and claiming that he had evidence of widespread voter fraud.

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Speaker 1: You can see them counting the ballots more than once, two, three, four,

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Speaker 1: or five times. You would have to be a moron

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Speaker 1: not to realize if that voter fraud. Joining me is

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Widra, president of the Constitutional Accountability Center. Rudy Giuliani

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Speaker 1: was told by Atlanta prosecutors that he's a target in

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Speaker 1: their investigation. Is it unusual to call a target to

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Speaker 1: testify before the grand jury? Why would he answer any

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Speaker 1: questions when he's the target? Well, I think that's a

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Speaker 1: very good question. You know, if you are called before

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Speaker 1: a grand jury, you can be called as a witness,

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Speaker 1: you know, simply a material witness, or you can be

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Speaker 1: called as a target. And we understand that he is

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Speaker 1: a target, and that means that the grand jury and

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor likely have substantial evidence that linked him to

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Speaker 1: a crime, and he could very likely be charged. So

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Speaker 1: I think there is a very very strong likelihood that

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Speaker 1: he invoked the Fifth Amendment privilege against self incrimination and

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Speaker 1: declined to answer questions. You know, he could have also

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Speaker 1: tried to put forth this attorney client privilege, but I

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Speaker 1: don't think that really would relate to most of the

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Speaker 1: questions of allegations of crime, because they simply weren't taking

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Speaker 1: place in conversations between him and Donald Trump. And also

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Speaker 1: there's a client fraud exception to the attorney client privilege,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't allow you to assert that privilege over fraudulent

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Speaker 1: criminal conversation. On his podcast on Monday, Giuliani said, quote,

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Speaker 1: as I recall correctly, I appeared in Georgia as attorney

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Speaker 1: for Donald J. Trump, So I'm going to be prosecuted

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Speaker 1: for what I did as an attorney. Does that theory

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Speaker 1: make sense to you? No, it doesn't make a lot

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Speaker 1: of sense. You know, it's unclear whether Julian was on

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Speaker 1: a mission from Trump as his attorney in George or not.

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Speaker 1: But the real gist of the matter is when he

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Speaker 1: was making these public statements that the you know, for example,

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Speaker 1: to the Georgia send a judiciary committee hearing about election integrity,

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Speaker 1: you know, in which he spread conspiracy theories about what

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Speaker 1: he referred to his widespread irregularities, which there's been absolutely

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Speaker 1: no evidence bound that that has any merit whatsoever. You know,

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Speaker 1: whether those are part of an unlawful, coordinated attempt to

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Speaker 1: alter the outcome of the elections, and that's not protected

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Speaker 1: by any type of attorney relationship. If Juliani made statements

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Speaker 1: at legislative hearings in Georgia falsely claiming that there have

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Speaker 1: been widespread voter products, so he testified before the grand

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Speaker 1: jury for about six hours, does that length of time

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Speaker 1: mean that he didn't take the fifth for every question

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Speaker 1: or didn't invoke attorney client privilege, or could it take

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Speaker 1: that long just to have them ask questions and answer?

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Speaker 1: In other words, does the time tell us anything? The

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Speaker 1: time doesn't necessarily tell us what happened. You know, he

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Speaker 1: could very well have pleaded the fifth to every question

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Speaker 1: and they simply had six hours worth with breaks, of course,

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Speaker 1: a question to ask him, because very frequently prosecutors who

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Speaker 1: are investigators will continue to ask the questions even if

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Speaker 1: they know that the witness is going to invocus fifth,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, it definitely does go faster than

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Speaker 1: if the witness gave a full answer to the questions.

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Speaker 1: It nonetheless does take quite a bit of time. Among

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Speaker 1: the potential crimes that the d. A. Willis is investigating

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Speaker 1: is making false statements to state and local government bodies,

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Speaker 1: as well as solicitation of election fraud and conspiracy. Since

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Speaker 1: Giuliani's statements before Georgia lawmakers have been proven, does it

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Speaker 1: seem like it would be difficult for him to get

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Speaker 1: around a charge of making false statements to state government bodies. Right,

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Speaker 1: And that's why in some ways claims about attorney client privilege,

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Speaker 1: you know, don't really make sense in this instance, because

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Speaker 1: Juliani was making public comments. They were during a legislative

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Speaker 1: committee hearing. They have been televised, you know, we've seen

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Speaker 1: the tape. So these statements are out there, and the

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Speaker 1: fact that they are false is incredibly well known, even

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Speaker 1: if some people continue to refuse to accept that truth.

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Speaker 1: And so we know that the scope of the investigation

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Speaker 1: that D. A. Willis is undertaking includes the call between

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Speaker 1: Trump and Rappensburger, which call between Rappensburger and Senator Graham,

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Speaker 1: and also include these false comments made by Juliani. And

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Speaker 1: so given that it is so clear cut, it could

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Speaker 1: be an important first step for this investigation to charge

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Speaker 1: Juliani and then go from there. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: also it would be in a important steps for the

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Speaker 1: nation because we have continually heard these false claims of

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Speaker 1: election abroad about the twenty elections. They've been said over

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Speaker 1: and over publicly by Donald Trump and his allies without

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Speaker 1: really any consequence or accountability, And so I think to

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Speaker 1: have some actual accountability attached to those false statements could

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Speaker 1: be a way of finally getting more people on board

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Speaker 1: with the actual truth that there wasn't wide spread election

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Speaker 1: fraud of the twenty twenty election. And so I think

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Speaker 1: charging Giuliani for those false statements would be an important

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Speaker 1: step in the d A investigation and could be an

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Speaker 1: important step for the country as well. Atlanta prosecutors have

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Speaker 1: also told sixteen Trump fake electors that their targets. But

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Speaker 1: this focus on Giuliani brings that investigation right into Trump's

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Speaker 1: inner circle. Giuliani went from being a material witness to

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Speaker 1: being a target. So is Trump far behind or is

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Speaker 1: that a bridge to far? You know, We certainly don't know.

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Speaker 1: We can speculate based on what the DA is investigating.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things she is specifically investigating is

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Speaker 1: a phone call between Donald Trump himself and Wrapping Burger.

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Speaker 1: And so if that particular call is part of the

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Speaker 1: scope of the investigation, obviously that directly involves Trump. And

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Speaker 1: so I think that if I were Donald Trump, I

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Speaker 1: would continue to be nervous about this investigation. Willis has

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Speaker 1: said that the investigation could result in a multi defendant

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Speaker 1: racketeering or conspiracy case. She's brought rico cases before, and

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Speaker 1: so does it seem like the time that she's taking

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Speaker 1: and the people that she's calling in before the grand

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Speaker 1: jury lead to a conclusion that it's a bigger case

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Speaker 1: than we might have anticipated when she started. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: I think that that often happens with grand juries, because

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Speaker 1: you know, part of the reason you have a grand

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Speaker 1: jury when you're engaged an investigation is to have the

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Speaker 1: authority to subpoena witnesses and information because there are limits

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Speaker 1: to getting people to willingly participate in your investigation. Is

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Speaker 1: so very frequently after you and panel a grand jury,

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Speaker 1: you will learn new things. So I think that it

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Speaker 1: would be not surprising at all if her investigation did

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Speaker 1: continue to turn up additional evidence of criminal activity and

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Speaker 1: unlawful activity. Willis has said that the investigation could result

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Speaker 1: in a multidefendant racketeering or conspiracy case. She's brought rico

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Speaker 1: cases before, and so does it seem like the time

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Speaker 1: that she's taking and the people that she's calling in

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Speaker 1: before the grand jury lead to a conclusion that it's

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Speaker 1: a bigger case than we might have anticipated when she started. Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: I think that that often happens with grand juries because

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Speaker 1: you know, part of the reason you have a grand

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Speaker 1: jury when you're engaged in investigation is to have the

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Speaker 1: authority to subpoena witnesses and information because you know there

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Speaker 1: are limits to getting people to willingly participate in your investigation.

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Speaker 1: Is so very frequently after you and panel a grand jury,

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Speaker 1: you will learn new things. So I think that it

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Speaker 1: would be, um, not surprising at all if her investigation

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Speaker 1: did continue to turn up additional evidence of criminal activity

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Speaker 1: and unlawful activity. And um, we know that just from

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Speaker 1: the January six committee hearings that there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of tentacles to this effort to Keith Donald Trump empowered

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Speaker 1: despite the votes in the election. And you know in

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Speaker 1: Georgia in particular, President Biden one by nearly twelve thousand bots. Um.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it wouldn't be surprising if the grand

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Speaker 1: jury investigation turned up additional evidence and the tard Its group,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned Senator Lindsey Graham and also to other

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Speaker 1: lawyers who represented Trump during the election, tried to challenge

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Speaker 1: the subpoenas. Graham was turned down and Jenna Ellis, the

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Speaker 1: attorney was turned down John Eastman, it's still up in

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Speaker 1: the air. The judge is not being intimidated or playing

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Speaker 1: around with this, neither is the d A. Is it

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Speaker 1: unusual to have these national figures being called to a

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Speaker 1: grand jury by a county d A. So there's there's

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Speaker 1: very little that is normal about this, but it is,

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Speaker 1: I would say appropriate. You have state and local laws

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Speaker 1: that apply to everyone, whether you're you know, powerful or

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Speaker 1: power less, whether you're um infamous statist or just a

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Speaker 1: regular person, and you know it. So this is very

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Speaker 1: unusual because we have this coordinated effort going up to

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Speaker 1: the former president of the United States to overturn the

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Speaker 1: will of the people, and it happens to be centered

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Speaker 1: in Fulton County, Georgia. But in many ways, you know,

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Speaker 1: the president and his allies took the fight to Sultan

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Speaker 1: County by making these unsubstantiated claims of election of fraud

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Speaker 1: that they claimed took place in Fulton County. And the

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Speaker 1: fact is that no election fraud took place, No widespread

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Speaker 1: election fraud took place, in Fulton County. And so the

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Speaker 1: Fulton County d A is pushing back against this conspiracy

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Speaker 1: to try to overturn the results of the people who

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Speaker 1: voted in that county and the people across the nation

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Speaker 1: who voted to put Joe Biden into power instead of

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. And so it certainly is high profile, of course,

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Speaker 1: but I think that what we're seeing is a d

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Speaker 1: A and a judge and a and jury who are

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Speaker 1: not afraid to really stand up to say no one

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Speaker 1: is above the law, and we are going to require

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Speaker 1: you to comply with the law, even if we're, you know,

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Speaker 1: just a little county in Georgia. Our laws apply to everyone,

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Speaker 1: including you. Thanks so much, Elizabeth. That's Elizabeth Widerette, president

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Speaker 1: of the Constitutional Accountability Center. Alan Weisselberg, the Trump organization's

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Speaker 1: longtime chief financial officer, pleaded guilty to evading taxes on

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Speaker 1: a free apartment and other perks amounting to more than

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Speaker 1: one point seven million dollars worth of untaxed extras, striking

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Speaker 1: a deal with prosecutors that could make him a star

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Speaker 1: witness against the company. At a trial this fall. The

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Speaker 1: seventy five year old acknowledged guilt on all fifteen charges.

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Speaker 1: As part of his plea agreement, Weislberg will spend five

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Speaker 1: months behind bars, followed by five years of probation. He

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Speaker 1: also agreed to pay nearly two million dollars in back taxes,

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Speaker 1: penalties and interest. Joining me as Greg Farrell Bloomberg News

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter for the Legal Enforcement Team. Is this plea

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Speaker 1: deal Weislberg flipping on Trump? No, not in the sense

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Speaker 1: that we understand flipping as being let's say Michael Cohen

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Speaker 1: several years ago, where this Cohen describes he decided to

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Speaker 1: plead guilty, and he testified to the best of his knowledge,

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Speaker 1: including against Trump in the Stormy Daniel's case and related cases,

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Speaker 1: and eventually has really been aggressive in promoting that. Weizelberg's

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Speaker 1: trying to walk a fine line he wants to and

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Speaker 1: succeeded in reducing exposure to life five months maximum. He's

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Speaker 1: the guy seventy that matters. I mean, he might get

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Speaker 1: you know, less than that, and he's playing guilty to

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Speaker 1: fifteen charges and he will be required, if called, to

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Speaker 1: testify in the rest of the trial against the Trump organization,

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Speaker 1: to testify about what he did. So it's not like

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Speaker 1: ratting out Donald Trump personally saying I was in the

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Speaker 1: room with him and did this, but just providing testimony

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Speaker 1: that as an official, the guy who actually controlled the

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Speaker 1: finances and the payments, et cetera of the company, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be very damaging to the organization and implicitly

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Speaker 1: to Trump himself. I looked at it in a different way.

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Speaker 1: He didn't implicate Trump or his family, and he's not

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Speaker 1: going to testify about Trump and his family, and he

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Speaker 1: hasn't cooperated with prosecutors in their broader investigation into Trump,

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Speaker 1: So why give him a deal? I think the prosecutors

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Speaker 1: a must have realized that despite the fact that he's

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Speaker 1: facing fifteen years, a guy his age on something like

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Speaker 1: this where there's not a lot of case history is

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Speaker 1: probably not at awhere near that, and then the effort

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Speaker 1: and manpower going into prosecuting him versus the value he

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Speaker 1: would have to testify in court about his role there,

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Speaker 1: like publiclarations. Wise, it's already a victory, you know, because

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Speaker 1: everybody was giving up on Alvin Bragg when the investigation

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Speaker 1: of Trump were dead, you know, when those two star

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Speaker 1: appointees of Civance left, and now this is very much

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Speaker 1: back in the game. So it's a momentum for the

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Speaker 1: d a's office if they want to continue pursuing Trump himself.

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Speaker 1: It cuts out a very toilsome part of the trial

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Speaker 1: against an individual, and it's much tougher to get a

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Speaker 1: criminal conviction of a guy who seventy five years old,

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Speaker 1: and you generate some sympathy for him that it isn't

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Speaker 1: an organization. People just don't care about finding an organization guilty.

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Speaker 1: The organizations not going to jail. So there are several upsides,

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Speaker 1: you know, embedded in this for the prosecution, right. So,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that the Trump organization sent out a

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Speaker 1: statement that I had done nothing wrong and look forward

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Speaker 1: to going to trial, and the company called Wisselberg a

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Speaker 1: fine and honorable man, So they're happy that he kept

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Speaker 1: his mouth shut, at least as far as Trump is concerned.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about the criminal investigation

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Speaker 1: to Trump, which you referenced. So there was this push

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Speaker 1: when Civance was prosecutor to try to pursue this criminally,

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Speaker 1: and we went up to the Supreme Court to get

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Speaker 1: the tax documents, push, push, push, and then Alvin Brad

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Speaker 1: comes in and nothing. He says, it's still going on.

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Speaker 1: But is it is there an investigation going on? This

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Speaker 1: is a a complex story, so to simplify it, you

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Speaker 1: are correct. The former district attorneys I Vance Um embarked

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Speaker 1: on this prosecution several years ago after a Bloomberg story.

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Speaker 1: A story in Bloomberg News pointed out that you know,

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Speaker 1: Wislberg had been paying for the Trump organization, had been

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Speaker 1: paying for the apartment of Weislberg's son and his wife,

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of other payments like that that were

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Speaker 1: off the books and books and records, violations to conceal

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Speaker 1: a fraud. That's a that's a that's a that's a

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Speaker 1: crime in New York state law. So prosecute started that,

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Speaker 1: and you're right. They asked for eight years of Trump's

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Speaker 1: tax returns and the company's tax returns, and Trump, as usual,

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Speaker 1: fought it all the way to the Supreme Court and

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Speaker 1: lost and went to the Supreme Court again. So he

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Speaker 1: helped run out the clock by ending that way against ivance. However,

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Speaker 1: it was a year ago or late June early July

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Speaker 1: last year, when Weisselberg and the organization would charged criminally.

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Speaker 1: Um and Vance had decided not to run for re

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Speaker 1: election and he had six months left in his term.

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Speaker 1: And it's strange how he played the last few months.

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Speaker 1: I think he could have you know, there was no

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Speaker 1: new information that came in in the second half of UH,

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Speaker 1: and yet he waited until mid December, with two weeks

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Speaker 1: left in his term and a successor who had been elected,

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Speaker 1: UM to you know, basically, UH direct his top two

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Speaker 1: deputies to pursue this aggressively with an eye towards getting

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Speaker 1: indicted within three months of the new guy's term. So

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Speaker 1: um anyway, you know, this is how it's unfolds. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Alvin Bragg takes office and uh uh you know, he

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Speaker 1: starts going over some of the material there. Some of

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Speaker 1: the material that had been passed along to Alvin Bragg

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Speaker 1: by the two men you know in question van system

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Speaker 1: did not contain some of the downsides of a prosecution.

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Speaker 1: In other words, there was a lot of paperwork and

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Speaker 1: arguments why this was the right thing to do, uh

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Speaker 1: and why it could be very winnable. There were a

432
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: few documents that had been existed in the office that

433
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: pointed out the challenges of this case that were omitted

434
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: from the file that these two individuals presented to Alvin Bragg,

435
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: and of course, you know, he's the Bosty office. When

436
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: he eventually did see this, he developed some skepticism towards

437
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: the presentations they had made to him. Um. And then

438
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: I guess the video. When they realized they weren't going

439
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: to be controlling this investigation or getting what they wanted, um,

440
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: they quit. One of one of the two wrote a

441
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: resignation letter h that was so detailed and critical of

442
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 1: Brag that it had to have been something that was

443
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: designed to be put in the public domain. UM. So yes,

444
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: there was. So there was a widespread belief that, based

445
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: on the resignation letter, that that Bragg's investigation was over. Um.

446
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: But I think he was hoping to get something more

447
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: and as small as this. My it be even though

448
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: you and I wouldn't use the word flip to uh

449
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: to talk about al Weisenberg, he will have to testify

450
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: truthfully about crimes he committed and admitted to. So this

451
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: is something that's going to be damaging it. This could

452
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: be something like even though it might seem incremental, I

453
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: think it's a little bigger than that that could break

454
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: other pieces of the puzzle loose. So anyway, that's a

455
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, a summary of the events of the last

456
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: more complex, and a lot of things we don't know

457
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: from the outside looking in looking at this investigation, all

458
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: that will happen to the Trump organization, as I understand

459
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: it is fines if they're convicted. Is the Attorney General

460
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: Letitia James? Is investigation more problematic for Trump? Yes? I

461
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: think so for several reasons. One, it's a civil case.

462
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: It's a civil case, which means, you know, the bar

463
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 1: is lower in terms of a jury if she actually

464
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: files the suit against the Trump organization accusative defraud and

465
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: New York State and other entities. But she represents the

466
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: state so defraud and New York's date of tax revenue

467
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: or whatever, um, she has a lot of strong evidence

468
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: on her own. Um. The fact that the CFO of

469
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: the Trump organization, you know, in another venue, the d

470
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: A's Office, criminally pleaded guilty to fifteen criminal counts about

471
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: tax evasion and tax abuse is a positive for her,

472
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, to the extent she wants to bring it

473
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: in and I like, do you need me more evidence

474
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: that you know, the Trump organization intentionally cheated new York State.

475
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: You have got the CFO admitting to a portion of

476
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: that so if she does, and when Trump himself and

477
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: his son, uh, finally Stafford depositions they took the Fifth

478
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: Amendment UM like frequently and provided no meaningful answers. Now

479
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: that's another difference between a criminal investigation by the d

480
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: A and a civil investigation by the a g UM.

481
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: In a criminal trial, you know, a jury is not

482
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: allowed to draw any inferences from a witness who takes

483
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: the fifth UM. There's a protection against that. But in

484
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: a civil trial, you can draw an inference. UM. That's

485
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: sort of so if you could say, you know, we

486
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: talked to the CEO, we tried to depose him. In

487
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: this case, this would be letician James's people. If she

488
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: goes to trial and he took the fifth he refused

489
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: to answer any questions on the grounds that may incriminate him.

490
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: So that's something that a jury could you know, take

491
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: as a as an inference. So I think she has

492
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: a much higher chance of success with this UM. And

493
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: then yes, she has the power to you know, first

494
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: of all, uh, that could be a huge financial penalty

495
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: which would really you know, cripple the Trump organization or worse,

496
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: I mean, she tried to disband UM, the National Rifle

497
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: Association in the n r A. So I'm not sure

498
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: she'd be a very squeamish or uh, you know, delicate

499
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: about how to treat the Trump organization. I wouldn't be

500
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: surprised if she really went for it and say this

501
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: is a criminal enterprise and you know, should not be

502
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: allowed to do business or be headquartered in New York. So, Wiselberg,

503
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: the judge is not going to sentence him till after

504
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: the trial in October. Yes, So that's that's a standard practice.

505
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: So in order to ensure you don't want to be

506
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: too lenient or too harsh, you know, you want to

507
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: see if the guy actually was truthfully testifying. Otherwise, if

508
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: things go sideways or he doesn't testify truthfully, that will

509
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: affect the sentence. The prosecutors might tear it him and say, no,

510
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: this guy, you know, didn't tell the truth, and he's

511
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: got a two million dollar fine, which might be a

512
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: drop in the bucket to him. I don't I'm not

513
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: sure if it's a drop in the bucket to him.

514
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: But for someone facing you know, time in Riker's jail,

515
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: that's the least of his problems, if you know what

516
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: I mean. So he's got the money, and I'm sure

517
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: he would not want to pay it, but the serious

518
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: jail time, years in prison at his age, it's sort

519
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 1: of like the real you know, sort of damocles over him.

520
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Greg. That's Greg Ferrell, Bloomberg News investigative

521
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: reporter for the Legal Enforcement Team. The Trump Organization is

522
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: facing the same charges as Weisselberg. In a statement, the

523
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: organization said, we now look forward to having our day

524
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: in court, which quite interestingly, has been scheduled for October

525
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: twenty four, just days before the midterm elections. And that's

526
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember

527
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: you can always get the latest legal news on our

528
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

529
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast slash Law.

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00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg