WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: TechStuff Takes Manhattan (Project) 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.640 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.479 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with iHeart Radio. And 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.000 how the tech are you. It's time for a tech 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:24.239 Stuff Classic episode. We are actually going to continue the 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:28.720 conversation that was begun in last week's classic episode. Last 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.720 week was The Manhattan Project Part one. This week it's 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.960 tech Stuff takes Manhattan Project. Ben Boland joins us yet 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.280 again to chat about the Manhattan Project, and I hope 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:46.120 you enjoy. So I'd like to say all listeners, if 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.440 you have not heard part one of this product, of 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.640 this podcast or this series, then I implore you. Maybe 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:56.520 maybe that's too strong a word. I don't know. No, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.920 I think implore is a good word because otherwise they're 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:01.640 going to be a lot of play. It's gonna be 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:07.600 like watching uh season four losting. It'll be like it'll 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.240 be like if you if you've heard, hey, that Game 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.759 of Thrones show is supposed to be really good, let 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:14.840 me just watch this one episode. You won't know who 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.240 any of the people are or why they're doing what 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:21.600 they're doing. Uh. So, here's a quick previously on tech stuff. 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.319 We ended up covering the physics that led up to 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:30.280 the discovery of fission. We also covered the political landscape, 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.920 the fact that World War two was well, first it 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.480 was building, you know, the world was building up to 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.759 World War two, and then World War two breaks out, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.959 and how that ended up creating a fast track in 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:49.480 the United States for research into fission, specifically in the 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:55.000 weaponization of fission, using using atomic science to create a weapon, 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.200 because there was the very real threat that the Nazis 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.560 were working on their own program for such a thing, 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:07.320 and even before the United States was pulled into the war, UH, 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:12.639 there was this this need. Einstein himself had expressed concern. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.880 And we also talked about sort of the the players 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.360 that we're all doing various lines of research into the 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.400 separate separation of of ions of uranium, because, as it 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.320 turns out, you two thirty five is really what you 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.560 want if you're trying to achieve nuclear fission, especially a 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:35.280 sustainable chain reaction, but you two thirty eight is overwhelmingly 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.480 the more abundant version of uranium that's found in nature, 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.200 and separating the two is not an easy task. So 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.920 we have multiple areas of research looking into ways to 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.720 do that and also a need to find a way 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:53.679 to weaponize it. We concluded Part one this is just 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.440 of set US upper parts. We concluded Part one talking 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:01.480 about how there was Army corp of engineers have become 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.160 involved and there was a fellow named James C. Marshall 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.840 who was initially in charge. James C. Marshall's headquarters were 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:14.639 located in Manhattan and specifically was the Manhattan Energy District. 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:19.040 Was the code name for it, and the secret project, 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:24.760 super secret project to develop atomic weapons became known as 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.560 the Manhattan Project, even after those headquarters were no longer 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.200 in Manhattan. Yeah, you know, if you find a name 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:33.680 that works, you stick. You stick with the name. And 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.800 it's one of those it's one of those common misconceptions 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.880 because as as we've mentioned on the previous episode, this 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.000 uh Manhattan Project did not occur. Not only did not 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.120 occur in just Manhattan or just in Mexico, but it 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:52.320 occurred in areas across the across the US. There's some 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.080 really cool stuff that's going to happen. There are towns 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.640 that only exist because of the Manhattan Project. They would 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.360 not have otherwise grown up where they are. And to 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.280 really get into this. At this stage, the very early 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:12.920 days of the Manhattan Project as an official thing, there 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:15.880 were some tensions that were already building up between the 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:20.640 scientific community, the various research centers that were looking into this, 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.960 and the Army that was more or less kind of 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.039 facilitating it, you know, sort of in charge. But also 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.320 mainly their purpose was to make sure that the scientists 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.600 were going to have the facilities and resources that they 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.440 would need in order to do what they needed to do, 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:41.000 and also the ones to crack the whip on the timeline. Yeah. Well, 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.120 and as it turns out, the Army moves at a 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:48.039 certain pace that the scientists didn't find particularly helpful. That, 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.239 you know, the essentially bureaucracy got in the way things, 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:56.039 Things slowed down, and the scientists were not entirely happy 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.960 with the way Marshall was running things. So in September 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:04.120 nineteen forty to the Army decides to replace Marshall with 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:09.560 Colonel Leslie R. Groves, who, after six days after becoming 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.160 the head of the Manhattan Project was promoted to brigadier general. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:18.080 So calling him colonel Groves is misleading, since he was 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.800 almost immediately a brigadier general. Gross was instrumental in bringing 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.560 the Pentagon or building the Pentagon. He was he was 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.080 one of the people very much in charge of that project. 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.240 And he also had a background as an engineer, so 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.880 he understood the needs of building facilities, you know what, 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.240 what actually is required to do this, and he knew 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:44.560 how to work on this in a very uh aggressive timeline, 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.080 I guess is the best way to put it. So 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.000 Groves moves in and then there were all these different 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:55.960 sites that the scientists had identified as being potentially ideal 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.440 for the Manhattan Project, and Marshall had been very slowly 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.600 invest gating them. Groves, on the other hand, said all right, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.680 let's do it, and I'd like to get them. Let's 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.599 get her done. Uh So Groves really look at the 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:09.880 at the headquarters from Manhattan to d C. But of 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.240 course it was already known as the Manhattan Project. It 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:13.960 was not going to be called the d C Project. 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:18.680 It got stuck that way, and he made Colonel Kenneth D. Nichols, 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.279 who was jame C. Marshall's deputy, into his chief aid 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.240 on the project. Marshall himself became a district engineer within 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.839 the program, and that's where he really excelled. Within the 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:36.120 Manhattan Project because his his talents were considerable. It's just 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:40.440 they were better suited for a different a different job 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.839 than overseeing the entire project. I see what you're saying. Yeah, because, 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:46.640 as it turns out, you know, you want someone who's 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.119 aggressive so that things can get started, but you also 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.880 want people who observe the need for caution when you're 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:59.640 handling nuclear materials. It's important to Marshall was not fired. No, 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.520 he was just simply reassigned. It was one of those 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:08.240 things where the need for this project was clear, but 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.720 how to organize it was something that was kind of 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:14.400 up in the air for a little bit. Is the 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.120 first time anybody was doing something like this as far 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:22.600 as exactly you know, the ancient Egyptians. No, Uh So 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.320 at the same time that this is going on, Vanavar Bush. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:26.720 If you don't know who that is, you need to 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.000 listen to our last episode. Yeah, I think that's just 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.000 gonna get more difficult from this point forward. Uh set 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.000 up the Military Policy Committee, which would be made up 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.400 of a representative from the Army, a representative from the Navy, 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.400 and one from the Office of Scientific Research and Development. 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.360 If you recall, Bush himself was the head of the 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.640 Office of Scientific Research and Development, but was constantly moving 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.559 up because his considerable talents and also getting things done. 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.280 Bush I think was probably one of the best at 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:03.560 figuring out who would be ideal to run certain parts 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.560 of this project. Like he was really good at matching 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.800 the people with the parts of the project that needed them. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:16.000 Um very visionary kind of guy. Also very very effective 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.480 at being a liaison between the big the big machine 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.640 and then these brilliant scientists. Uh yeah. He seemed to 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.200 know how to handle people no matter what background they 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.440 came from, and those folks are invaluable. I mean, you 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.000 can find people who are really smart and really talented, 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:34.640 but if they don't know how to how to interact 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.360 with other people, they don't go very far. Bush, however, 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.280 was not one of those guys. We'll be back with 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.960 more of this classic episode of tech stuff after this 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:56.120 quick break. Groves himself made it clear that the pursuit 0:08:56.160 --> 0:09:00.160 of multiple lines of research for that isotopes separation that 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.360 was something that could not go on forever. That really 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.480 what needed to happen was the project needed to settle 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.200 on the you know, one, one line or maybe two 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:16.800 lines of inquiry to really concentrate their efforts. Even if 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.920 it turned out those were not the most uh efficient, 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.559 it would mean that they could at least concentrate their 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.400 their you know, their workforce, because at the time these 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:31.920 scientists have their pet projects, which some of them have, 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.640 even if they some of them already kind of indicate 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.120 that this will be enormously expensive unless there's some breakthrough. 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.120 And and you had groups that had very different views 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.480 on the efficacy of the various methodologies. For example, the 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.760 British loved the idea of gaseous diffusion for isotope separation. Meanwhile, 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.640 you have Oppenheimer who was demonstrating that the electro magnetic 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:02.400 version of isotope separation could be incredibly effective. It's just 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.760 that he was working on a smaller scale, right, But 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.120 the scale that he was working on, if he could 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.920 scale up, he was pretty sure this methodology would be 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.000 incredibly fruitful. So he was arguing quite strongly for that. 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:18.920 So you had all these different camps coming in and 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.600 then you had other versions as well, but we're just 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.240 two of them. And that's what GROLs was saying. Okay, guys, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.480 really by the end of this year, by the end 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.640 of two let's really settle on a specific one so 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.240 that we can actually make a weapon that will make 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.120 a difference in this war, because at the rate we're going, 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.040 by the time we create a weapon, piece will have 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.560 broken out and then we'll just feel like jackasses, or 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.600 it would be a situation where if we don't get there, 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.080 someone is going to because the paranoid at that time 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.040 was so very high. Right even first of all, there 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.880 was not really any There was no way of knowing 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.320 what was going on in the Nazi camps, so it 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.880 could very well be that Nazi scientists were much closer there. 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.480 That was the legitimate fear. But beyond that, there were 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.959 already tensions between the United States and other nations, specifically 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.120 the Soviet Union, and so there was also a real 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:17.160 fear that Soviet Union could be investigating this as well. 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.360 And so even if the weapon weren't used in World 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.680 War Two, it would be really important for the United 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.480 States interests for there to be such a weapon period. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.880 In fact, that's going to play a part when we 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.079 get to the point of actually deploying said weapon. But anyway, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:39.079 November Uh, there was one of the methods of isotope 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.680 separation that just did not pan out and that was 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:48.280 using CENTRICU centrifuges. And it's because the centrifuge machines were 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:52.200 not dependable. They would break down too frequently. So it 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.600 wasn't that the methodology was bad, it was that the 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:59.600 machinery itself was not dependable. Yeah. So, um, I mean 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.680 if you were remember the stucks net story, you know, 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.000 those were centrifuges that were set to spend at the 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:12.720 wrong speed which ended up causing uh, some pretty big issues. Yeah. 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.600 So you know, it's it's something that we've known about 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:19.000 for since the nineteen forties, is that if you don't 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.760 get the machinery to work correctly, then you're not going 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.559 to be producing the you two that you need. So 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.719 electromagnetic separation was the big winner so far with you 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:35.360 to guest, iffusion was promising enough to still be in 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.839 the running for consideration and the Brits. The Brits were 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.959 still very much behind that. Plutonium, which was a completely 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.000 separate line of inquiry. Remember most of this was focused 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.560 on uranium. Plutonium was ended up getting a big boost 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.560 as well. The Metallurgical Laboratory in Chicago, which had just 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.240 recently brought Enrico Fermi on. He had been working at 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.719 Columbia and he had moved over or two the Metallurgical 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:06.200 Laboratory in Chicago. They produced a small amount of pure plutonium. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.920 They had uranium piles and plutonium was a byproduct of 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.640 the process they were using, and so they were saying, well, 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:19.960 plutonium is a better Uh. It's it's more apt to 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.480 undergo fission than you is. The problem is making enough 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:29.040 plutonium for that to be effective. So it was promising. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.480 But when we're talking small amount of pure plutonium, it's microscopic, 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.720 that's how small. So not useful for any sort of 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.640 practical Yeah. Nothing, nothing at all except for the fact 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:43.640 that's saying we've proven that it works, so so if 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.800 we can, if we can scale this up, then it 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.200 could be a promising means of generating plutonium. And it 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.720 was Glenn Seaboards team if you don't know who seaboard as, 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.439 you need to listen to the last episode. Uh, figured 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.520 out how to separate the plutonium from a radiated uranium. Uh. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.000 And then you had the theoretical physicists, So these are 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.400 the guys who you know, You had the the experimental 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.680 ones who are actually making theory. You know, putting theory 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.200 too to the test. But the theoretical physicists who are 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.800 led by Oppenheimer, we're refining their calculations to figure out 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.400 exactly how much fission herble material would be needed to 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.360 create a working bomb. Now, the Brits had come forward 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:28.680 and said probably between five to ten k UM. After 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.800 their after they work with Oppenheimer and the other theorists, 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.840 they said, yeah, we think that might be an underestimation. 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.920 You might need twice as much. By the way, they 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.800 would change this again later on, and each time the 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.280 goal posts will moved further out that we need to 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.160 we need we're going to need more material based on 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:54.600 our calculations to make a truly UH reactive system where 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:59.920 there is a sustainable chain reaction. So Oppenheimer was recommending 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.520 search into a fusion bomb, not just fission. Fusion bomb 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.880 would actually be triggered by initially a fission reaction, So 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.880 you have to have fissionable material first, and then you 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:17.520 would the energy from that. That interaction would provide the 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.600 necessary energy to facilitate a fusion reaction which could be 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.720 much more powerful. This would be the super bomb. Hydrogen 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.000 bomb was one of those things that was bandied about 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.720 quite a bit in these early days. But frankly, everyone's like, 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.680 let's let's crack fission first breakfast. Yeah exactly, But but 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:41.880 s one, the Office of Science and Research authorize some 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.880 research into light materials, deuterium being the main one to 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.720 look into the possibility of a fusion bomb, So they 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.760 didn't want to discount it or dismiss it. But they 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.560 also didn't want to put all the eggs in the 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.480 fusion basket. Right. Well, it's you know, if you consider 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:03.000 just what what outlines earlier, it's at it's complicating a 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:08.040 process that we have yet to successfully do you know, 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:13.840 are complete. Right, And so then Groves can't decides, okay, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.280 since peagures out, that's not gonna work. It's it's it 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.800 will take us too long to refine the process for 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:24.040 it to be practical. Let's focus right now on the 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:29.120 pile research that's what generates plutonium, the electromagnetic research, and 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:33.320 the gaseous diffusion research, and we're gonna skip the pilot 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.280 plant stage go straight to full scale production. In other words, 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.520 normally you would create a slightly larger pilot plant to 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.720 make certain that the things you had tested in the 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:49.360 laboratory still work at the plant stage, but if they 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.240 don't work, then you can tweak things because the pilot 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.200 plant isn't so large or so the infrastructure is not 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.280 so rigid that you can't shift things around. So idea 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.120 being that you find the ideal operating conditions at the 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.000 pilot plant stage, then you scale up to full scale. 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:09.960 They're skipping pilot plant and saying we don't have time 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:15.080 for it, which is a dangerous yeah, literally and figuratively right, 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.919 because figuratively you could say, well, we built this facility 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.760 based upon our best estimation and it turns out that 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.840 was off, and now we're stuck with it and we 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:29.119 have to use an unideal situation to do whatever it 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.359 is we need to do. Literally, you're dealing with radioactive 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:37.000 material and if it gets out of control, that would 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:43.040 be devastating. December second, ninety two, Enrico Fermi and his 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.760 team demonstrating in front of a group of dignitaries a 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.879 nuclear chain reaction which lasted for twenty eight minutes until 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:54.280 firm ME shut it down. So that was this is 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.600 where we get one of the most famous exchanges from 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:02.320 the Manhattan Project, and it was when Compton who called Conant. 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:07.640 Those names will be familiar, you know. Yeah. So Compton 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.200 called Conan and they had the following exchange, up, who 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:12.239 do you want to be? Do you want to be 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.240 Compton or Conan? I will you know what, I'll be 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:22.480 Compion and I go ahead, ring ring, Hello. The Italian 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.919 navigator has landed in the New World. How were the 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.440 natives very friendly? And that was that was the way 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.920 of describing Not only was the the experiment of success, 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.439 but it it impressed the dignitaries who were there to 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.679 see it. So that was that was there coded some 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:46.919 semi coded, like improvised way of of saying what had 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:51.040 happened without you know, squeezing or or or or or 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.880 dropping information that might be you know, pretty sensitive over 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.680 a telephone line. You did a bang up job with these, 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.199 with these notes. And uh when I saw when I 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.480 first saw this, it made me want to go into 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:09.240 a rabbit hole of finding all of the recorded UH 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.480 code word conversations of this time, because it must sound 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.800 so bizarre because people are saying it with gravity, but 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.800 they're saying stuff like, um, they're saying stuff like the 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.359 rabbit has left the hutch. The rabbit has left the hutch, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.600 and then the person on the other line is like green, 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.120 and someone goes blue and hangs up, you know, right, 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.800 and you're like, does there any record of what this 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.200 actually meant? I mean, the probably the most famous quote 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.399 out of all of the Manhattan Project, I would argue, 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:48.879 comes from Oppenheimer, absolutely and spawned so many, um, so 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:53.360 many things, ranging from uh out and out conspiracy theories 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:58.879 to uh just fascinating biographies to to spoil it because 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.080 I mean, I'll forget about the time we get around 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.640 to the part when the bomb is being tested. Oppenheimer's 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.760 famous quote, you've probably heard it before as I am 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.280 become Death, the destroyer of worlds. Yeah, and he um. 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.880 He has a quotation where he explains that because that's 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.159 some ominous stuff, that's like a nick cave with a 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.560 bad seed song. Sure it, sure is. It were there 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.840 with red right hand, if I were, if I were 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.640 just hanging out, if you and I were hanging out 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.640 when when the bomb dropped and someone said that they 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.560 would immediately become a dangerous person, I would seriously wonder like, 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.840 should we have you around? Yeah, for a moment, I 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:35.280 thought you were going to say, like if we were 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.480 out and I just turned to you and said, hey, Jonathan, 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.399 I am become deaf to the straight of worlds. I 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:44.879 would take that as something to really mull over and 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.960 possibly start to look for the nearest exite, especially if 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.920 we were if we were just going down the street 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.080 to a food truck or something. Right, Yeah, we're just 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.000 heading out to the one over in the parking lot 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.040 talking about tune your own horn. But there is a 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.399 context of this, so yeah, and we can said that 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.560 we'll get there a little bit later. We've got more 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.040 to say in this classic episode of tech stuff. After 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:21.280 these quick messages, in December two, the US government allocated 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:25.360 half a billion dollars, which would eventually grow to more 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:31.320 than two billion dollars dollars to fund further development. By 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.359 the way, those costs, that's just the official numbers. There 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.960 could be tons and tons that are tied into it 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:40.679 in one way or another. Uh and and not to 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.760 mention funds that didn't come directly from the United States government, 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.880 right right, And that's that's a huge part of this. 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:49.640 The truth of the matter is that we probably will 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:54.240 never know for sure, but we do know that two billion, 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.320 although it may be the sticker price was not was 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.920 not the the entirety of it. Yeah. And in fact, 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.360 when we say we may never know, no one may 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:09.280 might know. It's it's it's such a huge undertaking that 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:13.679 it's very unlikely there's a document anywhere that has the 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:17.360 full tally. It's just it's it's just too big. It's 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:19.760 too big. Yeah, So it's not it's not like a 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:25.240 conspiracy as much as it is a tremendously difficult calculation. Exactly, 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.200 I've got the I've got the inflation number two there, 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.960 what's that? And so we said two billion in nineteen Okay, 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:38.000 so let's let just just do some math here. Let 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:43.959 me get my advocates out two billion. Uh oh, you 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.880 have to use smaller values. I was on a calculator. 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:50.879 It says you have to use smaller values. So just 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:54.080 a lot of money will leave it. Okay, Yes, a 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:58.000 significant amount of cash. So the money went on to 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:03.200 establish full scale gaseous fusion plants, full scale plutonium plants, 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:07.520 and smaller electro magnetic plants, power plants, you know, like 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:13.000 the manufacturing facilities, not not like biological plants. That doesn't 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:16.400 come along until much later. Yes, and Vanavar Bush said 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:18.639 the earliest of them could be expected would be early 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:21.480 nineteen forty five, and he was actually trying to be 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.400 a little conservative because the earlier reports that suggested that 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:28.879 if things worked out, there might be a weapon ready 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:33.240 as early as ninety four. But Bush was thinking, you know, 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:35.520 I'm gonna pad that a little bit. And as it 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:39.960 turns out, even that was optimistic early a little optimistic. 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:46.080 Plutonium was looking promising, but people were worried that the 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:49.159 radioactive pile approach, which is what fer Me was using, 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.520 wasn't going to be scalable. That they'd be able to 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:54.800 produce plutonium, but would be at such small amounts that 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:56.679 it would take way too long to have enough for 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.440 it to be a weapon, especially considering that they want 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:01.000 to build more of the one because they have to 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:05.640 test it, and they're still not absolutely sure how much 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:10.320 they need per weapon. Right, And Uh, the demonstrations for 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.280 ME had shown revealed that there could be a chain reaction, 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:16.879 but the reaction was at too slow a rate for 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:20.080 it to be used potentially as a weapon. Uh. The 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:21.960 idea being that, yeah, you could do this to to 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.439 generate energy, like it could be a nuclear power plant. 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:28.600 The chain reaction would allow you to to harness in 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:32.480 that respect, but it wouldn't be so fast to create 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:37.520 an explosive event, so it would not be useful as 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:42.280 a weapon. Um. However, more research would go into that also. 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:46.399 Form Me's approach was at such a slow rate of 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.320 of energy release that they did not need any sort 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:53.840 of cooling system, so um, there was no need for 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.000 the very advanced cooling systems that you will find in 0:24:57.080 --> 0:25:00.200 nuclear power plants these days, which was kind of interest 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:03.399 to me. And there were three different competing designs for 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:07.320 nuclear piles. One was water a water cooled model which 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.440 was developed by Kale Young and Eugene Wigner. One was 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:14.080 a liquid metal cooled approach headed by our good friend 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:17.359