1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with iHeart Radio. And 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: how the tech are you. It's time for a tech 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: Stuff Classic episode. We are actually going to continue the 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: conversation that was begun in last week's classic episode. Last 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: week was The Manhattan Project Part one. This week it's 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: tech Stuff takes Manhattan Project. Ben Boland joins us yet 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: again to chat about the Manhattan Project, and I hope 10 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: you enjoy. So I'd like to say all listeners, if 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: you have not heard part one of this product, of 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: this podcast or this series, then I implore you. Maybe 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: maybe that's too strong a word. I don't know. No, 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: I think implore is a good word because otherwise they're 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: going to be a lot of play. It's gonna be 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: like watching uh season four losting. It'll be like it'll 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: be like if you if you've heard, hey, that Game 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: of Thrones show is supposed to be really good, let 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: me just watch this one episode. You won't know who 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: any of the people are or why they're doing what 21 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: they're doing. Uh. So, here's a quick previously on tech stuff. 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: We ended up covering the physics that led up to 23 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: the discovery of fission. We also covered the political landscape, 24 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: the fact that World War two was well, first it 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: was building, you know, the world was building up to 26 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: World War two, and then World War two breaks out, 27 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: and how that ended up creating a fast track in 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: the United States for research into fission, specifically in the 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: weaponization of fission, using using atomic science to create a weapon, 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: because there was the very real threat that the Nazis 31 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: were working on their own program for such a thing, 32 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: and even before the United States was pulled into the war, UH, 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: there was this this need. Einstein himself had expressed concern. 34 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: And we also talked about sort of the the players 35 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: that we're all doing various lines of research into the 36 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: separate separation of of ions of uranium, because, as it 37 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: turns out, you two thirty five is really what you 38 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: want if you're trying to achieve nuclear fission, especially a 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: sustainable chain reaction, but you two thirty eight is overwhelmingly 40 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: the more abundant version of uranium that's found in nature, 41 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: and separating the two is not an easy task. So 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: we have multiple areas of research looking into ways to 43 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: do that and also a need to find a way 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 1: to weaponize it. We concluded Part one this is just 45 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: of set US upper parts. We concluded Part one talking 46 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: about how there was Army corp of engineers have become 47 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: involved and there was a fellow named James C. Marshall 48 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: who was initially in charge. James C. Marshall's headquarters were 49 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: located in Manhattan and specifically was the Manhattan Energy District. 50 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: Was the code name for it, and the secret project, 51 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: super secret project to develop atomic weapons became known as 52 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project, even after those headquarters were no longer 53 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: in Manhattan. Yeah, you know, if you find a name 54 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: that works, you stick. You stick with the name. And 55 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: it's one of those it's one of those common misconceptions 56 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: because as as we've mentioned on the previous episode, this 57 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: uh Manhattan Project did not occur. Not only did not 58 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: occur in just Manhattan or just in Mexico, but it 59 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: occurred in areas across the across the US. There's some 60 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: really cool stuff that's going to happen. There are towns 61 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: that only exist because of the Manhattan Project. They would 62 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: not have otherwise grown up where they are. And to 63 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: really get into this. At this stage, the very early 64 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: days of the Manhattan Project as an official thing, there 65 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: were some tensions that were already building up between the 66 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: scientific community, the various research centers that were looking into this, 67 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: and the Army that was more or less kind of 68 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: facilitating it, you know, sort of in charge. But also 69 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: mainly their purpose was to make sure that the scientists 70 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: were going to have the facilities and resources that they 71 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: would need in order to do what they needed to do, 72 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: and also the ones to crack the whip on the timeline. Yeah. Well, 73 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: and as it turns out, the Army moves at a 74 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: certain pace that the scientists didn't find particularly helpful. That, 75 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: you know, the essentially bureaucracy got in the way things, 76 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: Things slowed down, and the scientists were not entirely happy 77 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: with the way Marshall was running things. So in September 78 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: nineteen forty to the Army decides to replace Marshall with 79 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: Colonel Leslie R. Groves, who, after six days after becoming 80 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: the head of the Manhattan Project was promoted to brigadier general. 81 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: So calling him colonel Groves is misleading, since he was 82 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: almost immediately a brigadier general. Gross was instrumental in bringing 83 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: the Pentagon or building the Pentagon. He was he was 84 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: one of the people very much in charge of that project. 85 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: And he also had a background as an engineer, so 86 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: he understood the needs of building facilities, you know what, 87 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: what actually is required to do this, and he knew 88 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: how to work on this in a very uh aggressive timeline, 89 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: I guess is the best way to put it. So 90 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: Groves moves in and then there were all these different 91 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: sites that the scientists had identified as being potentially ideal 92 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: for the Manhattan Project, and Marshall had been very slowly 93 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: invest gating them. Groves, on the other hand, said all right, 94 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: let's do it, and I'd like to get them. Let's 95 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: get her done. Uh So Groves really look at the 96 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: at the headquarters from Manhattan to d C. But of 97 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: course it was already known as the Manhattan Project. It 98 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: was not going to be called the d C Project. 99 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: It got stuck that way, and he made Colonel Kenneth D. Nichols, 100 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: who was jame C. Marshall's deputy, into his chief aid 101 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: on the project. Marshall himself became a district engineer within 102 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: the program, and that's where he really excelled. Within the 103 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: Manhattan Project because his his talents were considerable. It's just 104 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: they were better suited for a different a different job 105 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: than overseeing the entire project. I see what you're saying. Yeah, because, 106 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: as it turns out, you know, you want someone who's 107 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,119 Speaker 1: aggressive so that things can get started, but you also 108 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: want people who observe the need for caution when you're 109 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: handling nuclear materials. It's important to Marshall was not fired. No, 110 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: he was just simply reassigned. It was one of those 111 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: things where the need for this project was clear, but 112 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: how to organize it was something that was kind of 113 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: up in the air for a little bit. Is the 114 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: first time anybody was doing something like this as far 115 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: as exactly you know, the ancient Egyptians. No, Uh So 116 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: at the same time that this is going on, Vanavar Bush. 117 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: If you don't know who that is, you need to 118 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: listen to our last episode. Yeah, I think that's just 119 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: gonna get more difficult from this point forward. Uh set 120 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: up the Military Policy Committee, which would be made up 121 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: of a representative from the Army, a representative from the Navy, 122 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: and one from the Office of Scientific Research and Development. 123 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: If you recall, Bush himself was the head of the 124 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: Office of Scientific Research and Development, but was constantly moving 125 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,559 Speaker 1: up because his considerable talents and also getting things done. 126 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: Bush I think was probably one of the best at 127 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: figuring out who would be ideal to run certain parts 128 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: of this project. Like he was really good at matching 129 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: the people with the parts of the project that needed them. 130 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: Um very visionary kind of guy. Also very very effective 131 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: at being a liaison between the big the big machine 132 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: and then these brilliant scientists. Uh yeah. He seemed to 133 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: know how to handle people no matter what background they 134 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: came from, and those folks are invaluable. I mean, you 135 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: can find people who are really smart and really talented, 136 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: but if they don't know how to how to interact 137 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: with other people, they don't go very far. Bush, however, 138 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: was not one of those guys. We'll be back with 139 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: more of this classic episode of tech stuff after this 140 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: quick break. Groves himself made it clear that the pursuit 141 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: of multiple lines of research for that isotopes separation that 142 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: was something that could not go on forever. That really 143 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: what needed to happen was the project needed to settle 144 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: on the you know, one, one line or maybe two 145 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: lines of inquiry to really concentrate their efforts. Even if 146 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: it turned out those were not the most uh efficient, 147 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: it would mean that they could at least concentrate their 148 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: their you know, their workforce, because at the time these 149 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: scientists have their pet projects, which some of them have, 150 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: even if they some of them already kind of indicate 151 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: that this will be enormously expensive unless there's some breakthrough. 152 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: And and you had groups that had very different views 153 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: on the efficacy of the various methodologies. For example, the 154 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: British loved the idea of gaseous diffusion for isotope separation. Meanwhile, 155 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: you have Oppenheimer who was demonstrating that the electro magnetic 156 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: version of isotope separation could be incredibly effective. It's just 157 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: that he was working on a smaller scale, right, But 158 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: the scale that he was working on, if he could 159 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: scale up, he was pretty sure this methodology would be 160 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: incredibly fruitful. So he was arguing quite strongly for that. 161 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: So you had all these different camps coming in and 162 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: then you had other versions as well, but we're just 163 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: two of them. And that's what GROLs was saying. Okay, guys, 164 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: really by the end of this year, by the end 165 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: of two let's really settle on a specific one so 166 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: that we can actually make a weapon that will make 167 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: a difference in this war, because at the rate we're going, 168 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: by the time we create a weapon, piece will have 169 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: broken out and then we'll just feel like jackasses, or 170 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: it would be a situation where if we don't get there, 171 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: someone is going to because the paranoid at that time 172 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: was so very high. Right even first of all, there 173 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: was not really any There was no way of knowing 174 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: what was going on in the Nazi camps, so it 175 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: could very well be that Nazi scientists were much closer there. 176 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: That was the legitimate fear. But beyond that, there were 177 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: already tensions between the United States and other nations, specifically 178 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, and so there was also a real 179 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: fear that Soviet Union could be investigating this as well. 180 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: And so even if the weapon weren't used in World 181 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: War Two, it would be really important for the United 182 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: States interests for there to be such a weapon period. 183 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: In fact, that's going to play a part when we 184 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: get to the point of actually deploying said weapon. But anyway, 185 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: November Uh, there was one of the methods of isotope 186 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: separation that just did not pan out and that was 187 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: using CENTRICU centrifuges. And it's because the centrifuge machines were 188 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: not dependable. They would break down too frequently. So it 189 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: wasn't that the methodology was bad, it was that the 190 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: machinery itself was not dependable. Yeah. So, um, I mean 191 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: if you were remember the stucks net story, you know, 192 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: those were centrifuges that were set to spend at the 193 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: wrong speed which ended up causing uh, some pretty big issues. Yeah. 194 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's something that we've known about 195 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: for since the nineteen forties, is that if you don't 196 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: get the machinery to work correctly, then you're not going 197 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: to be producing the you two that you need. So 198 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 1: electromagnetic separation was the big winner so far with you 199 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: to guest, iffusion was promising enough to still be in 200 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: the running for consideration and the Brits. The Brits were 201 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 1: still very much behind that. Plutonium, which was a completely 202 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: separate line of inquiry. Remember most of this was focused 203 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: on uranium. Plutonium was ended up getting a big boost 204 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: as well. The Metallurgical Laboratory in Chicago, which had just 205 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: recently brought Enrico Fermi on. He had been working at 206 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 1: Columbia and he had moved over or two the Metallurgical 207 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: Laboratory in Chicago. They produced a small amount of pure plutonium. 208 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: They had uranium piles and plutonium was a byproduct of 209 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: the process they were using, and so they were saying, well, 210 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: plutonium is a better Uh. It's it's more apt to 211 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: undergo fission than you is. The problem is making enough 212 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: plutonium for that to be effective. So it was promising. 213 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: But when we're talking small amount of pure plutonium, it's microscopic, 214 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: that's how small. So not useful for any sort of 215 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: practical Yeah. Nothing, nothing at all except for the fact 216 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: that's saying we've proven that it works, so so if 217 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: we can, if we can scale this up, then it 218 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: could be a promising means of generating plutonium. And it 219 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: was Glenn Seaboards team if you don't know who seaboard as, 220 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: you need to listen to the last episode. Uh, figured 221 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: out how to separate the plutonium from a radiated uranium. Uh. 222 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: And then you had the theoretical physicists, So these are 223 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: the guys who you know, You had the the experimental 224 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: ones who are actually making theory. You know, putting theory 225 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: too to the test. But the theoretical physicists who are 226 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: led by Oppenheimer, we're refining their calculations to figure out 227 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: exactly how much fission herble material would be needed to 228 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: create a working bomb. Now, the Brits had come forward 229 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: and said probably between five to ten k UM. After 230 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: their after they work with Oppenheimer and the other theorists, 231 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: they said, yeah, we think that might be an underestimation. 232 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: You might need twice as much. By the way, they 233 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: would change this again later on, and each time the 234 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: goal posts will moved further out that we need to 235 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: we need we're going to need more material based on 236 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: our calculations to make a truly UH reactive system where 237 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: there is a sustainable chain reaction. So Oppenheimer was recommending 238 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: search into a fusion bomb, not just fission. Fusion bomb 239 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: would actually be triggered by initially a fission reaction, So 240 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: you have to have fissionable material first, and then you 241 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: would the energy from that. That interaction would provide the 242 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: necessary energy to facilitate a fusion reaction which could be 243 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: much more powerful. This would be the super bomb. Hydrogen 244 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: bomb was one of those things that was bandied about 245 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: quite a bit in these early days. But frankly, everyone's like, 246 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: let's let's crack fission first breakfast. Yeah exactly, But but 247 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: s one, the Office of Science and Research authorize some 248 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: research into light materials, deuterium being the main one to 249 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: look into the possibility of a fusion bomb, So they 250 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: didn't want to discount it or dismiss it. But they 251 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: also didn't want to put all the eggs in the 252 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: fusion basket. Right. Well, it's you know, if you consider 253 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: just what what outlines earlier, it's at it's complicating a 254 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: process that we have yet to successfully do you know, 255 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: are complete. Right, And so then Groves can't decides, okay, 256 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: since peagures out, that's not gonna work. It's it's it 257 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: will take us too long to refine the process for 258 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: it to be practical. Let's focus right now on the 259 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: pile research that's what generates plutonium, the electromagnetic research, and 260 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: the gaseous diffusion research, and we're gonna skip the pilot 261 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: plant stage go straight to full scale production. In other words, 262 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: normally you would create a slightly larger pilot plant to 263 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: make certain that the things you had tested in the 264 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: laboratory still work at the plant stage, but if they 265 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: don't work, then you can tweak things because the pilot 266 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: plant isn't so large or so the infrastructure is not 267 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: so rigid that you can't shift things around. So idea 268 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: being that you find the ideal operating conditions at the 269 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: pilot plant stage, then you scale up to full scale. 270 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: They're skipping pilot plant and saying we don't have time 271 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: for it, which is a dangerous yeah, literally and figuratively right, 272 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: because figuratively you could say, well, we built this facility 273 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: based upon our best estimation and it turns out that 274 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: was off, and now we're stuck with it and we 275 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: have to use an unideal situation to do whatever it 276 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: is we need to do. Literally, you're dealing with radioactive 277 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: material and if it gets out of control, that would 278 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: be devastating. December second, ninety two, Enrico Fermi and his 279 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: team demonstrating in front of a group of dignitaries a 280 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: nuclear chain reaction which lasted for twenty eight minutes until 281 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: firm ME shut it down. So that was this is 282 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: where we get one of the most famous exchanges from 283 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project, and it was when Compton who called Conant. 284 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: Those names will be familiar, you know. Yeah. So Compton 285 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: called Conan and they had the following exchange, up, who 286 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: do you want to be? Do you want to be 287 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: Compton or Conan? I will you know what, I'll be 288 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: Compion and I go ahead, ring ring, Hello. The Italian 289 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: navigator has landed in the New World. How were the 290 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: natives very friendly? And that was that was the way 291 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: of describing Not only was the the experiment of success, 292 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: but it it impressed the dignitaries who were there to 293 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: see it. So that was that was there coded some 294 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: semi coded, like improvised way of of saying what had 295 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: happened without you know, squeezing or or or or or 296 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: dropping information that might be you know, pretty sensitive over 297 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: a telephone line. You did a bang up job with these, 298 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: with these notes. And uh when I saw when I 299 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: first saw this, it made me want to go into 300 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: a rabbit hole of finding all of the recorded UH 301 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: code word conversations of this time, because it must sound 302 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: so bizarre because people are saying it with gravity, but 303 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: they're saying stuff like, um, they're saying stuff like the 304 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: rabbit has left the hutch. The rabbit has left the hutch, 305 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: and then the person on the other line is like green, 306 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: and someone goes blue and hangs up, you know, right, 307 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: and you're like, does there any record of what this 308 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: actually meant? I mean, the probably the most famous quote 309 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: out of all of the Manhattan Project, I would argue, 310 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: comes from Oppenheimer, absolutely and spawned so many, um, so 311 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: many things, ranging from uh out and out conspiracy theories 312 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: to uh just fascinating biographies to to spoil it because 313 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I'll forget about the time we get around 314 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: to the part when the bomb is being tested. Oppenheimer's 315 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: famous quote, you've probably heard it before as I am 316 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: become Death, the destroyer of worlds. Yeah, and he um. 317 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: He has a quotation where he explains that because that's 318 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: some ominous stuff, that's like a nick cave with a 319 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: bad seed song. Sure it, sure is. It were there 320 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: with red right hand, if I were, if I were 321 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: just hanging out, if you and I were hanging out 322 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: when when the bomb dropped and someone said that they 323 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: would immediately become a dangerous person, I would seriously wonder like, 324 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: should we have you around? Yeah, for a moment, I 325 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: thought you were going to say, like if we were 326 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: out and I just turned to you and said, hey, Jonathan, 327 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: I am become deaf to the straight of worlds. I 328 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: would take that as something to really mull over and 329 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: possibly start to look for the nearest exite, especially if 330 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: we were if we were just going down the street 331 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: to a food truck or something. Right, Yeah, we're just 332 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: heading out to the one over in the parking lot 333 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: talking about tune your own horn. But there is a 334 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: context of this, so yeah, and we can said that 335 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: we'll get there a little bit later. We've got more 336 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: to say in this classic episode of tech stuff. After 337 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: these quick messages, in December two, the US government allocated 338 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 1: half a billion dollars, which would eventually grow to more 339 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: than two billion dollars dollars to fund further development. By 340 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: the way, those costs, that's just the official numbers. There 341 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: could be tons and tons that are tied into it 342 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: in one way or another. Uh and and not to 343 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: mention funds that didn't come directly from the United States government, 344 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: right right, And that's that's a huge part of this. 345 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: The truth of the matter is that we probably will 346 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: never know for sure, but we do know that two billion, 347 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: although it may be the sticker price was not was 348 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: not the the entirety of it. Yeah. And in fact, 349 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: when we say we may never know, no one may 350 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: might know. It's it's it's such a huge undertaking that 351 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: it's very unlikely there's a document anywhere that has the 352 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: full tally. It's just it's it's just too big. It's 353 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: too big. Yeah, So it's not it's not like a 354 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: conspiracy as much as it is a tremendously difficult calculation. Exactly, 355 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: I've got the I've got the inflation number two there, 356 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: what's that? And so we said two billion in nineteen Okay, 357 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: so let's let just just do some math here. Let 358 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 1: me get my advocates out two billion. Uh oh, you 359 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: have to use smaller values. I was on a calculator. 360 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: It says you have to use smaller values. So just 361 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: a lot of money will leave it. Okay, Yes, a 362 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: significant amount of cash. So the money went on to 363 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: establish full scale gaseous fusion plants, full scale plutonium plants, 364 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: and smaller electro magnetic plants, power plants, you know, like 365 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: the manufacturing facilities, not not like biological plants. That doesn't 366 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: come along until much later. Yes, and Vanavar Bush said 367 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: the earliest of them could be expected would be early 368 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, and he was actually trying to be 369 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 1: a little conservative because the earlier reports that suggested that 370 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: if things worked out, there might be a weapon ready 371 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: as early as ninety four. But Bush was thinking, you know, 372 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna pad that a little bit. And as it 373 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: turns out, even that was optimistic early a little optimistic. 374 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: Plutonium was looking promising, but people were worried that the 375 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: radioactive pile approach, which is what fer Me was using, 376 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be scalable. That they'd be able to 377 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: produce plutonium, but would be at such small amounts that 378 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: it would take way too long to have enough for 379 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: it to be a weapon, especially considering that they want 380 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: to build more of the one because they have to 381 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: test it, and they're still not absolutely sure how much 382 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: they need per weapon. Right, And Uh, the demonstrations for 383 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: ME had shown revealed that there could be a chain reaction, 384 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: but the reaction was at too slow a rate for 385 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: it to be used potentially as a weapon. Uh. The 386 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: idea being that, yeah, you could do this to to 387 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: generate energy, like it could be a nuclear power plant. 388 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: The chain reaction would allow you to to harness in 389 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: that respect, but it wouldn't be so fast to create 390 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: an explosive event, so it would not be useful as 391 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: a weapon. Um. However, more research would go into that also. 392 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: Form Me's approach was at such a slow rate of 393 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: of energy release that they did not need any sort 394 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: of cooling system, so um, there was no need for 395 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: the very advanced cooling systems that you will find in 396 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants these days, which was kind of interest 397 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: to me. And there were three different competing designs for 398 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: nuclear piles. One was water a water cooled model which 399 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: was developed by Kale Young and Eugene Wigner. One was 400 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: a liquid metal cooled approach headed by our good friend 401 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: Leo listened to the last, and the last was a 402 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: helium cooled pile which was headed by Thomas V. Moore, 403 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: who was an engineer. Was pretty interesting. Yeah, I had 404 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: a great nickname is called may West, um, presumably because 405 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: the design included spherical segments in the outer shell of 406 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: the facility and May West was built. I don't mean 407 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: the actress. I mean I do mean the Actress, but 408 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: I really mean the the actual facility name nicknamed may West. 409 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: That was its official name by the way. Scale Yeah, right, 410 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: So Groves demanded that the Metallurgical Lab come up with 411 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: a unified approach. Uh not not. You know, he wasn't 412 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: gonna say, all right, look, let's have all three of 413 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: these progress at the same time, because he was already 414 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: dealing with a branch further up right. He was saying, 415 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: plutonium is just one of the legs of research they're 416 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: already funding, the other two being electromagnetic and gaseous diffusion. 417 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: So he didn't want plutonium research to then split into 418 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: three separate groups as well. That would just become unmanageable. 419 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: So uh, a small facility would be headed by FERMI 420 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: and shut down in nineteen forty three, so firm's research 421 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: could end up informing the next stage. UM. They would 422 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: then be able to decide if that was in fact 423 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,239 Speaker 1: the way they wanted to go. Plus they could take 424 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: all the plutonium that was made by that that's part 425 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: of the research, and set that aside. May West would 426 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: be built and ready for operation by March nineteen forty four, 427 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: and its design would allow it to produce a hundred 428 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: grams of plutonium per day, which was significantly more than 429 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: firm's approach UM, and good old Leo was allowed to 430 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: continue research on liquid metal cooling systems kind of on 431 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: his own. So because it wasn't as big of a priority, right, yea, 432 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't. It didn't look as promising too, Grows, and 433 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: so even the Grows was like, look, you have to 434 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: settle on one. Technically, all three continued UM Again, they 435 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: didn't want to draw any conclusions too early on, and 436 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: it turned out that they backed the wrong horse men. Meanwhile, 437 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: Glee Glenn Seaboard's work and plutonium extraction made it possible 438 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: to separate plutonium from a radiated uranium, which was an 439 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: important step because both plutonium and a radiated uranium were 440 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: byproducts of this pile research, and you have to separate 441 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: the two if you want to get the fissionable material 442 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: necessary to create the chain reactions. UM. So as one 443 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: felt that the plutonium experiments could potentially be dangerous. Uh, 444 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: and so they were there's thinking maybe we should, um, 445 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: maybe we should start separating out some of these facilities, 446 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: Like maybe we shouldn't co locate the ISID, the the 447 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: plutonium separation facility with the nuclear pile facility. Let's they 448 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: go back to your basket phrase. Let's know, why do 449 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: we need to keep all our disasters in one basket? Yeah? 450 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: And then and then this also, you know, needs to 451 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: be in an unpopulated area. Yes, because if you recall 452 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: from the first episode, the nuclear pile research was largely 453 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: taking place in an old racket court underneath the grand 454 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: stand at the University of Chicago. UM, so not you 455 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: know there there the facility or the department actually was saying, yeah, 456 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: we kind of wish you had come to us before 457 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: you decided to use that area because this is kind 458 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: of scary. Um. So they started looking around for potential 459 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: partners to help build the facility and it uh, there 460 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: was one specifically that they looked at, and they required 461 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: a lot of um oh, corsion is the wrong word, 462 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,959 Speaker 1: but convincing for them to take part in it. It 463 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,479 Speaker 1: was DuPont Um and DuPont was not super keen on 464 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: doing this. It actually did take quite a few conversations 465 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: before they came on board, but they would ultimately build 466 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: the facility. UM. And also in two Oppenheimer suggested the 467 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: location of Los Alamos, New Mexico, as one of the 468 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: three sites the Manhattan Project would use. To pursue the 469 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: effort of building an atomic bomb very remote location. Oppenheimer 470 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: himself owned a ranch that was neighboring Los Alamos, so 471 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: he thought of it as being remote enough for it 472 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: to be a useful test site and development site. Also, 473 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: there were very few people who were there uh, and 474 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: the ones who were there could be convinced to move 475 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: by offering them a decent amount of money for their 476 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: their land, especially considering that the value of the land 477 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: at the time was pretty low because like what's out 478 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: there very little. Yeah, there was a boys school that 479 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: was out there, but Gross went up in offered to 480 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: buy it from from the schools. I'll offered to buy 481 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: the land, and they said, all right, we'll relocate and 482 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: they left. Um. So in nineteen forty three, in eastern Tennessee, 483 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: work was well underway on several facilities. There was the 484 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: plutonium plant that was designated X ten. That was the 485 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: electromagnetic facility which was Y twelve, and a ghasiut diffusion 486 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: plant which was called K twent five UH. And this 487 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: was a site that was located west of Knoxville, Tennessee. 488 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: It was nineties square miles or fifty nine thousand acres, 489 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: and it became a military reservation with the official name 490 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: of Clinton Engineer Works UM. By the summer nineteen forty three, 491 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project headquarters would move from Washington to this 492 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: site in Tennessee, and eventually that that military site grew 493 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: into a full fledged town that today is called oak Ridge. 494 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: Got a little tangent for you here, what's that? So 495 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: my my family, my extended family, is from the Tri 496 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: Cities area, which is uh in the very very tip 497 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: of Tennessee, up in the mountains, and for a time, 498 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: members of my family lived and worked around the area 499 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: that would be known as oak Ridge. And it was 500 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: sort of an open secret that something was going on, 501 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: but people really didn't have any any idea that UM, 502 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: any idea how big Oak Ridge would actually become, to 503 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: the point where I think at some point it was 504 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: power providing like power to uh one seven of the 505 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: power it was actually drawing one So drawing and drawing 506 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: the power. Yeah, that one some of the power of 507 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: the entire country, not of Tennessee, of the entire United States. 508 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: One seventh of the power being generated in the United 509 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: States was dedicated to powering the facilities at what would 510 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: become oak Ridge, that it was never called oak Ridge 511 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: during the duration of the Manhattan project that come later, 512 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: But eventually it did grow into a full fledged town 513 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: because they these projects were enormous and needed a huge 514 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: variety of workers to make things run, everything from administrative 515 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: staff to the people who actually operated the machinery and 516 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: the controls, the people who were transporting materials. That there 517 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: was support staff to support all of that. It just 518 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: it quickly grew into and a full fledged town. Um. 519 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: And so this was and a lot of people didn't 520 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: know what they were working on beyond like their actual 521 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: day to day jobs. They didn't know what the end 522 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: goal was, right, And it's something that happens today even 523 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: in other large scale projects. That it's the compartmentalization of 524 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: information and one of the you know, it's kind of 525 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: an ugly truth that gets sensationalized a lot, but I 526 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: think we'll we'll explore it later on in the show. Uh. 527 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: The primary reason for this at this time was the complete, 528 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: can completely consuming paranoia on the part of the military 529 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: of spine and espionage and not. You know, this wasn't 530 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: some um hair brained fantastical thing. This was a valid concern. 531 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: YEA as it turns out, it was so valid that 532 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: it ended up not being paranoid enough. In Washington State 533 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: we have the third of the three sites. The project 534 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: set up headquarters in Hanford, and they created another boom town, 535 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: another town that was specifically meant to help push the 536 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: the goals of the Manhattan Project. Uh Hanford would become 537 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: home to the water cooling pile facilities and the chemical 538 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: separation plants, which were called the Queen Mary's And that 539 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: only really makes sense if you see a picture of them, 540 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: because it looks almost like the shape of the stuff 541 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: that's above ground looks like it's in the shape of 542 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: an old ocean liner, as if you had taken Queen 543 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: Mary ocean liner and buried it in the ground, so 544 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: only the very top is visible. That's why they were 545 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: called that um so in the In the spring of 546 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: nineteen forty three, Oppenheimer had another lab set up in 547 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: Los Alamos, New Mexico. He began to suspect that it 548 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: might take three times as much material, not two times 549 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: as much as they had previously estimated to make a 550 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 1: working bomb. By the way, part of the reason why 551 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: the atomic bombs ended up being so incredibly devastating is 552 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: because they kept on thinking that they were going to 553 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: need more and more visionable material, and it turned out 554 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: that some of the earlier estimations might have been a 555 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: little more on the dot than they had worried about. 556 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: Both the Y twelve, which was that electromagnetic plant, and 557 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: the K twenty five, that's the gasiest diffusion plant experienced problems. UH. 558 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: They were having issues all the way from and project 559 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: scientists decided to take a look at another method of 560 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 1: isotope separation called thermal diffusion, which had previously been under 561 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: consideration but kind of dismissed as being two slow and 562 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: too poorly understood to rely upon as a reliable means 563 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: of getting a weapon UH built, because you know, they 564 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: they might pan out in the long run, but in 565 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: wartime consideration, it's not practical. At this point, they started 566 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: to revisit it UH, and with both of those facilities 567 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: having issues, there was a lot of incentive to look 568 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: at it again because if either the other two didn't 569 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 1: pan out because of technical difficulties, because because of skipping 570 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 1: that pilot plant step, they needed to have a fallback plan. 571 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 1: So Oppenheimer suggested to Grows that they build a thermal 572 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: diffusion plant at oak Ridge and Grows agreed and co 573 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: located it with the power plant for the K twenty 574 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: five um, which the reason for that was the K 575 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: The power plant would create steam, which would turn turbines 576 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: that generates electricity, basic power plant design. So they decided, well, 577 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 1: that steam is really hot. We can then use that 578 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: as part of the thermal diffusion process to provide the heat, 579 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: the thermal meaning heat. Uh. This would be the best 580 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: way of doing it. We wouldn't have to build another 581 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: facility to generate steam. We could just co locate it 582 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: with this other one. So we've got all the science 583 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: about the fissionable materials, but there's a whole other section 584 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 1: we got to talk about two, the actual development of 585 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: the bomb itself. Oh yes, that is that is going 586 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: to be an important part of this story, isn't it. 587 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: So so you've got you've got the science going on 588 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: about how do we create this chain reaction? But then 589 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: you think, well, what about the actual device that's going 590 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: to hold this material and initiate that chain reaction? Uh? 591 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: And there were some different approaches for that too. So 592 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: they started working on the ordinance aspects. That's essentially the 593 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: physical manifestation of this bomb, like the physical parts. They 594 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:54,439 Speaker 1: called it the gadget. Um. So, in order to do this, uh, 595 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: they were looking at multiple methods. One was that this 596 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: creating two subcritical masses of sable material that would come 597 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: together so that you know, when they're separated, everything's kosher. 598 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about it blowing up relatively 599 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: for our purposes, and then bringing them together that's what 600 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: would allow the very rapid fission process to occur, releasing 601 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: enormous amounts of energy in the process. Thus you get 602 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: the big boom. Uh. So they started looking into ways 603 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: they could do this, and they had to figure out 604 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: how to do it precisely at a high speed, and 605 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: they had to make sure that whatever they did would 606 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: not cause a predetonation, because that would be bad. You 607 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: don't want your bomb going off before you you planned 608 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: on it going off. Um. So, one of the things 609 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: they were looking at was the gun method, which was 610 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: essentially firing a plug of fissionable material into a subcritical mass, 611 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: turning it into critical. Um. So, think of it as 612 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: it's a bomb that has within it and actual gun. 613 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: There's a barrel, it's got a plug of this stuff. 614 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: When the trigger is pulled, essentially it fires that plug 615 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: into the subcritical mass and then starts the chain reaction. 616 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: All this happens in a second. I mean, it's it's 617 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: incredible how fast it happens. But there are some things 618 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: that can go wrong. Yes, there are things that can 619 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: go wrong, and one of those things is it maybe 620 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: that it doesn't start the reaction fast enough. So that 621 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: was one of the deals. They wanted to test this theory, 622 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: both with you tout and with plutonium approaches. And there 623 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: was another approach that was looked at as well, not 624 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: just using the gun, but what if you were to 625 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: create an implosion. Uh. So an implosion would be too 626 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: You would create shock waves that would then uh end 627 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: up instigating this this chain reaction. Um. And the person 628 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: who started looking at implosion tests first really was Seth 629 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,919 Speaker 1: h nedder Meyer uh and he was kind of left 630 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: to his own devices to look into this, and um 631 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,280 Speaker 1: he uh ended up looking at it along with John 632 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: von Neumann, who was Hungarian refugee who visited Los Alumos late. 633 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:25,320 Speaker 1: He was looking at various ways to create a reliable 634 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: bomb as well. So you've got the nuclear physicists all 635 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: working on the fuel and uh, fissionable material side, and 636 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: then you have the other like mechanical engineers looking at well, 637 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 1: how can we make this a practical weapon? So so 638 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: sort of like two parallel versions of research. Also, there 639 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: was some friction between Neddermeyer and Navy captain named william S. 640 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: Dieck Parsons. He was actually in charge of ordinance. So 641 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: when you've got a guy who's working on one of 642 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: the methods, the implosion method and the guy who's in 643 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: charge of it not getting along, that was is an issue. Uh, 644 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: And so you had to have kind of liaisons with 645 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 1: that as well, so that you did have some ego 646 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: battles going on, um people who thought that things needed 647 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: to go a certain way and other folks who felt 648 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: very strongly that that was not the appropriate direction. So 649 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: a lot of drama going on behind the scenes as well, 650 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: not just with the technology and the science, but with personalities, 651 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: which is always kind of interesting. Uh. Then you had 652 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: the Army Air Force involved there. You've got like so 653 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: many different departments that there's departmental issues as well. Uh. 654 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: Parsons group was developing two bomb models by March nine, 655 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: and to test he wanted to test these with B 656 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: twenty nines. These are essentially the methodology without the actual 657 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: bomb materials um and they named them thin Man, which 658 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: was named after President Roosevelt. That used the plutonium gun design, 659 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: so firing a plug of plutonium into fissionable material. Yes. 660 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: And then you had fat Man, which was named after 661 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,399 Speaker 1: Winston Churchill. That was an implosion prototype, so you had 662 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: the implosion one needed a larger form factor, thus fat Man, 663 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: and then you had thin Man. Uh. You also had 664 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: a smaller uranium gadget called Little Boy, which was using 665 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: a uranium gun, So so you had the plutonium gun 666 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 1: and the uranium gun. Ah. The plutonium gun eventually was 667 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: abandoned because it turned out that plutonium to thirty nine 668 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: could pick up a neutron and become plutonium to forty 669 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: and increase the chances of predetonation, which we have already 670 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: established is a bad thing. So they said, well, if 671 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: we're going to use plutonium, we can't use the gun method. 672 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: It would only really work with the implosion method. So 673 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: the thin Man variation on these bombs that was abandoned. 674 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: So you had a fat Man and Little Boy versions, 675 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: and that was it because otherwise it was too dangerous. 676 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: But this this also meant that the approaches were requiring 677 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: the the timeline to extend a bit. They were not 678 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: going to make that early nine deadline of a working bomb. 679 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: And at this point in the war, the the tide 680 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: is turning yes, yeah, And in fact, on the Army 681 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: Corps of engineer side you had Groves and Marshall meeting 682 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: together and discussing what's happening, and their estimation was that 683 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: by the time a bomb would be ready, they were 684 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: being quoted that on August first would be the earliest 685 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: that a bomb would be available. They were pretty sure 686 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,959 Speaker 1: that by then Germany was going to have surrendered. The 687 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: tides were turning enough where it looked like it was 688 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 1: just Germany was on borrowed time, however, and the Pacific 689 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: theater Japan would likely fight to the very end. The 690 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: Japanese culture was such that there was very little chance 691 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: of Japan's government reconciling, at least in a way that 692 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,399 Speaker 1: the West found um acceptable. Because the West was going 693 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: to demand that Japan dismantle its empirical system, and that 694 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: was so deeply ingrained in Japanese culture. It was unlikely 695 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: to happen until just catastrophic losses were experienced on Japan's side. Also, 696 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: the economies of well, the economies of all all the 697 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: countries involved at some point shifted greatly, as they do 698 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: during times of war. But the Japanese economy at the 699 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:46,319 Speaker 1: time was a war powered economy, like it was necessary 700 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: to keep the cycle going. Yeah, so pretty grim, uh, 701 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: And but it became more and more apparent to the 702 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: Army Corps of Engineers that, in fact, if they were 703 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: able to produce a working bomb, the target was not 704 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: going to be Germany. It was going to be Japan. 705 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,439 Speaker 1: They knew this in early ninety five, they were pretty sure. 706 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: Um by mid expenditures were around a hundred million dollars 707 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: per month, And in late nineteen early ninety five, progress 708 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: at oak Ridge meant that the August first deadline actually 709 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: started to look realistic. It didn't, you know, at first 710 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,359 Speaker 1: they were they were worried that even August first might 711 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: be too aggressive. But the early problems that have been 712 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: plaguing the facilities had largely been worked out, and now 713 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: all the different lines of research were starting to be fruitful. 714 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,440 Speaker 1: So at this point they weren't even saying which version 715 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: is going to work. They were. They were pretty sure 716 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: there was going to be at least two. The plutonium 717 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 1: implosion bomb like it was very promising, and the uranium 718 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: gadget bomb the gun method look like it was very promising. 719 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: So then they started looking into how they were going 720 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 1: to to actually build these. Meanwhile, Hanford up in Washington, 721 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: their bluetooning facilities had some problems. Early. There was an 722 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: issue with what was called xenon poisoning, which was not 723 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: for the employees there. This was the this was the 724 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: nuclear fuel. Yeah, the xenon m The process was producing xenon, 725 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,959 Speaker 1: and the problem was that the way the chain reaction works, 726 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: if you remember from our our previous episode, AH, these 727 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: radioactive elements when they decay, give off fast moving neutrons 728 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: which can then trigger another another particle to to undergo fission. 729 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: And thus it ends up reducing fast moving neutrons. And 730 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,719 Speaker 1: as long as it's reduced, it's as long as it's 731 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: producing more than one of those fast moving neutrons, this 732 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,120 Speaker 1: becomes an expanding chain reaction. Right. It's like you know, 733 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: you tell two friends and they tell two friends and 734 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,800 Speaker 1: they that sort of thing. Perfect. Um. So the problem 735 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: was that xenon, which was being produced by this Uh, 736 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: this process could accept neutron so readily that it would 737 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: end up preventing a chain reaction from happening. Essentially, he's like, 738 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,760 Speaker 1: come on over here, boys were good. And then because 739 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: the neutrons were being accepted by Zenon, they were not 740 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 1: triggering further fission. And so once they figured that out, 741 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: they were able to take advantage of something DuPont had 742 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: absolutely insisted upon when it agreed to build the facilities. 743 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: They had designed the facility to allow for operation at 744 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 1: greater power levels, which originally the scientists were saying we 745 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: don't or actually it is really the Army Corps of 746 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: Engineer saying we don't want this. It's too expensive, it's 747 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: it's not necessary. We've been told that it should work 748 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: at these lower power levels, and DuPont said, no, we're 749 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: gonna have to insist, and as it turns out, that 750 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 1: was the right decision. Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion 751 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: of this Tex Stuff classic episode right after we take 752 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:15,280 Speaker 1: this break. So, by operating at the greater power levels, 753 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 1: that overwhelmed the xenon. So, in other words, it was 754 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,800 Speaker 1: generating neutrons at a rate so fast that the Xenon 755 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: was not going to be able to accept them at 756 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,800 Speaker 1: the rate they were coming out, so it was allowing 757 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: that chain reaction to occur after all. So the Hanford 758 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: facility began producing plutonium and significant amounts and sent the 759 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 1: first shipment to Los Alamos in February. So the plutonium 760 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: gun method obomb design did not work. The only way 761 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: the plutonium was going to be useful is if they 762 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,959 Speaker 1: could prove the implosion method would work. So that's where 763 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,439 Speaker 1: the focus shifted. At that point, they knew the gun 764 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: design was a bust, so they started looking significantly into implosion. 765 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: So by late they were pretty sure that the uranium 766 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: gun method was viable. So that was gonna be the 767 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: little boy version of the bomb. Uh. They froze that design, 768 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,319 Speaker 1: meaning they said, all right, this is definitely what we 769 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: are going to build. They froze it in February. Plutonium. Uh, 770 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,680 Speaker 1: their work with that was obviously taking a little longer. 771 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,359 Speaker 1: They knew the gun design wasn't going to work, but 772 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: once they figured out the implosion design, that got approved 773 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: in March, and they scheduled a test for the fourth 774 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 1: of July because the fireworks you'd ever see. However, they 775 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: actually moved it back to July because of weather actually, 776 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,880 Speaker 1: and they named it the Trinity Test and it happened 777 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: at five thirty in the morning. So interesting thing. They 778 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 1: the uranium gun method was so certain they didn't test it. 779 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,720 Speaker 1: They never, they never, they never tested the bomb before 780 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,439 Speaker 1: they used it. But the plutonium method, they weren't sure. 781 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,800 Speaker 1: So they build this plutonium bomb, the implosion based bomb. 782 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: At five thirty in the morning on July, they fire it. 783 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: They used a firing tower to hold the bomb and 784 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,879 Speaker 1: to to kind of approximate where the bomb would be 785 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: before it detonated, because the bombs detonate before they hit 786 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: the ground. Yeah, yeah, it's not like there's a tip 787 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,320 Speaker 1: on the bomb that hits the ground. Their their program 788 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: to get to a certain elevation, built to get to 789 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: a certain elevation and then explode above the ground because 790 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,879 Speaker 1: it maximizes the damage. Yeah. This is where this, by 791 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,359 Speaker 1: the way, is also where our conversation it's gonna get 792 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:46,160 Speaker 1: pretty heavy because we're now talking about actual physical damage 793 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 1: and the loss of human life. So while we were 794 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 1: maybe a little cavalier, I don't know even if cavaliers 795 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,759 Speaker 1: the word, but we were playful at points This is 796 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,280 Speaker 1: where this show is really going to get serious, because 797 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about real human being inks. So this test 798 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: was phenomenally impressive and successful from a weaponization point of view. 799 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,280 Speaker 1: It vaporized the firing tower, It turned asphalt into sand, 800 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 1: and it turned sand into glass. Uh. The explosion knocked 801 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: over a two hundred tons steel container that was a 802 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 1: half mile from ground zero. The steel container had been 803 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,320 Speaker 1: built and designed and put down as part of the test, 804 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: but they didn't intend to actually use it on the 805 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: July sixteenth test. It was literally just standing where they 806 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: had left it and it knocked it over. Um. The 807 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,359 Speaker 1: explosion was bright enough to cause temporary blindness and observers, 808 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,320 Speaker 1: even those who were wearing goggles with smoke glass lenses, 809 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,480 Speaker 1: they knew it was going to be bright, they had 810 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: no idea how bright it was going to be, and 811 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,280 Speaker 1: some of them lost their vision for a while. Glass 812 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: would shatter in houses a hundred twenty five miles from 813 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 1: the explosion point, and it was a quick went to 814 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand to twenty thousand tons of T and T 815 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,959 Speaker 1: they had estimated it would be about equivalent to five 816 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: thousand tons. And this goes back to the earlier statements 817 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,839 Speaker 1: with this. Also, by the way, the day that Oppenheimer 818 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:19,240 Speaker 1: creeps out everyone but uh and and there we say whoops. 819 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 1: Instead of whoops, he says, I become Death, Death, destroyer 820 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,720 Speaker 1: of world. Yeah, and just just briefly on that the 821 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: the reason that he said that. There's a great quotation 822 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 1: from him here says we knew the world would not 823 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,800 Speaker 1: be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, 824 00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: most people were silent. I remember the line from the 825 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,840 Speaker 1: Hindu scripture the Bahaga bad Ghita. Vishnu is trying to 826 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: persuade the prince that he should do his duty, and 827 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 1: to impress him, takes on his multi armed form and says, now, 828 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,360 Speaker 1: I've become Death, the destroyer of worlds. I suppose we 829 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,359 Speaker 1: all thought that one way or another. You know, I'm 830 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,320 Speaker 1: not sure. I'm not sure if they did. But this, 831 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: uh yeah, in this in this day, Um, you know, 832 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,600 Speaker 1: you have to think about how how you would feel 833 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 1: a d miles away. This thing blows up and the 834 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,959 Speaker 1: I don't know blame is the right word. But because 835 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 1: they kept up in the amount they thought they needed. Yeah, 836 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,839 Speaker 1: that's what happened. And those people who witnessed the detonation 837 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,640 Speaker 1: and participated in it were very lucky to survive. Yeah, 838 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 1: And and you think about this, like, you know, they 839 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,040 Speaker 1: didn't have a full understanding of what the long term 840 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,800 Speaker 1: effects were going to be of this, not just you know, 841 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,799 Speaker 1: the initial effects are devastating enough, but the long term 842 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: effects continue to end up, you know, causing damage and 843 00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,759 Speaker 1: killing years after the initial explosion. We'll get into some 844 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,920 Speaker 1: figures a little bit. So, uh. I think this is 845 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,320 Speaker 1: also one of those points where there's that moment of 846 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 1: realization that the thing you've been working so hard, the 847 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: thing that previously had just been theory that you had 848 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,400 Speaker 1: based it upon observations of the inner g that was 849 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: released in these nuclear reactions, something that you knew was 850 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: possible but had not actually seen for yourself, now is reality. 851 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,640 Speaker 1: It is no longer abstract thought, is no longer the 852 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,000 Speaker 1: realm of calculations on a sheet of paper. Now it's real. 853 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:25,359 Speaker 1: And that's got to be a heavy, heavy moment, especially, Yeah, 854 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,760 Speaker 1: especially when you consider what the intended purposes. On the April, 855 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 1: President Roosevelt dies and Vice President Harry S. Truman is 856 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: sworn in as president. Here's how secret the Manhattan Project was, 857 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,120 Speaker 1: despite the fact that it employed around a hundred thirty 858 00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,360 Speaker 1: thousand people at one time or another. Truman didn't know 859 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: about it. Detonated a nuclear weapon, and the vice president 860 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,359 Speaker 1: didn't know about it. He didn't know about No. At 861 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,640 Speaker 1: this point in April, they hadn't quite so. But in 862 00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: April they hadn't happened yet. But Truman, they were well 863 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,240 Speaker 1: on their way to the test. Truman had no idea. 864 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 1: He was briefed on it as part of becoming president 865 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 1: during war, which is, you know, a pretty tough gig, 866 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: no matter how you look at it. But Truman understood 867 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: the relevance of the project and he supported it. Uh. 868 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,200 Speaker 1: You know, Plus it's pretty late in the game. They 869 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,200 Speaker 1: had built the thing pretty much there, just needed to 870 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,279 Speaker 1: tested at that point. Um. So, on the political side, 871 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,279 Speaker 1: Germany had surrendered and it was clear that Japan was 872 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,920 Speaker 1: going to lose the conflict, but it was probably going 873 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,319 Speaker 1: to fight until the very end. So it was going 874 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,360 Speaker 1: to require a massive invasion of Japan using you know, 875 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:43,120 Speaker 1: a coordinated effort with the Allied forces in order to 876 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 1: make it happen. No telling how many people would die 877 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,640 Speaker 1: on both sides of that, uh, and it was going 878 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,480 Speaker 1: to be it was going to to extend the war 879 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:57,160 Speaker 1: even further, and so there was a very serious discussion 880 00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: about what do we do. Do we go forward with 881 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,200 Speaker 1: invasion plans or do we actually use this weapon? We 882 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: have this we have designed now. The US informed Churchill 883 00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: of the success of the the test, and Churchill was 884 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: all for it until he found out it was nicknamed 885 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:19,640 Speaker 1: fat Boy fat Man. Yeah, yeah, fat Man named after him. Yeah. No, 886 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,840 Speaker 1: uh yeah he I don't know if he ever, I 887 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: don't know when he get the memo on that part, 888 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,759 Speaker 1: but he was totally on board. Truman told Stalin, Uh, 889 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,600 Speaker 1: he had been told by his his advisors, Hey, don't 890 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,759 Speaker 1: tell Stalin. Stalin's kind of a bad guy. You don't 891 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 1: want to. You don't want to let him know about 892 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,080 Speaker 1: this ahead of time. But Truman felt that it was 893 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:46,319 Speaker 1: necessary to preserve the uneasy piece between the United States 894 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,600 Speaker 1: and the Soviet Union, So he told Stalin of the 895 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 1: development of the weapon and told told Song without the 896 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,719 Speaker 1: presence of an interpreter, it's just Truman and Stalin, and 897 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,440 Speaker 1: Stalin was very composed. And it turns out the reason 898 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 1: he was composed was because he already I knew about it. Um, 899 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:08,359 Speaker 1: he already knew about it, because despite the paranoia, there 900 00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:13,800 Speaker 1: was a Soviet spy amongst the Brits who were working 901 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:18,799 Speaker 1: alongside the Americans on the Manhattan Project. So um, yeah, 902 00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:20,600 Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about him in a second. 903 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 1: But the US wanted unconditional surrender of Japan, the dismantling 904 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,160 Speaker 1: of the imperial system, and Japan I wanted to surrender 905 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,480 Speaker 1: based on intercepted messages between Tokyo and Moscow, but not 906 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,080 Speaker 1: under the conditions that the Americans were demanding. Japan, I 907 00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,719 Speaker 1: believe still wanted to maintain some of the territory. Yeah, 908 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,279 Speaker 1: and they didn't want to abandon the empire approach of 909 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,440 Speaker 1: their government like that was that was a big deal. 910 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,480 Speaker 1: And the United States like, no, your empire, the imperial 911 00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 1: method has to go. It can we want democracy, we 912 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:59,480 Speaker 1: want a different system of government. Yeah, So it was, 913 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,719 Speaker 1: I mean, it was a tall order and Japan was 914 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,360 Speaker 1: not like the Japanese government was not in a position 915 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,040 Speaker 1: that could easily capitulate to those demands. So things are 916 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: moving out ahead. And on August six, the and Nola 917 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,240 Speaker 1: gay a B twenty nine bomber, piloted by Colonel Paul Tibbots, 918 00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,560 Speaker 1: released a nine thousand seven hundred pound uranium gun bomb 919 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,200 Speaker 1: called Little Boy. This remember this is the one that 920 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,880 Speaker 1: had never been tested. They knew they were confident it 921 00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: would work, but they had never actually tested this bomb. 922 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,440 Speaker 1: And it was released at approximately eight fifteen am, thirty 923 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: one thousand feet above Hiroshima, Japan, and forty three seconds 924 00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,120 Speaker 1: later it detonated. At that point, it was at an 925 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,040 Speaker 1: altitude of nineteen feet above the city, and the initial 926 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:52,800 Speaker 1: explosion killed seventy thousand people, more or less instantly. Yeah, 927 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,440 Speaker 1: uh where this is where you hear about people's shadows 928 00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,880 Speaker 1: being burned into the walls behind them because of the 929 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,160 Speaker 1: intense energy that was released by this bomb. By n 930 00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,680 Speaker 1: fifty the death count would be closer to two hundred thousand, 931 00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:12,960 Speaker 1: So that seventy thousand those that was initial where again instantaneous, 932 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,920 Speaker 1: not even a moment to think it's just over. But 933 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 1: another hundred thirty thousand would die due to radiation sickness, 934 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:25,280 Speaker 1: So an agonizing fate for so many. Nearly all the 935 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: buildings in a five square mile radius were either leveled 936 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,280 Speaker 1: completely or just severely damaged to the point where there 937 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,520 Speaker 1: was no chance of using them again. They would need 938 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,040 Speaker 1: to be taken down Truman announced the Hiroshima raid that 939 00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,760 Speaker 1: evening to the American public, which was the first time 940 00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,600 Speaker 1: that the United States revealed to the general public that 941 00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: they had been working on an atomic weapon. This was 942 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,080 Speaker 1: the first time the Manhattan Project had been unveiled in 943 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,439 Speaker 1: a sense that it existed, right. They didn't go into 944 00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,000 Speaker 1: any details about how much work had gone into it 945 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,439 Speaker 1: and what had happened, but that this was the first time, 946 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,280 Speaker 1: so again, a hundred people had worked on it. Many 947 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 1: of those people this was the first time they found 948 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 1: out what their work was, what the result was like, 949 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:16,040 Speaker 1: they didn't know necessarily, there were very few of that 950 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,240 Speaker 1: hundred thirty thod who actually knew what the purpose of 951 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,880 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project really was, which is phenomenal. It's hard 952 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,920 Speaker 1: in hindsight, It's hard for us to imagine that. I'm 953 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,720 Speaker 1: sure at the time it was a job, you know, 954 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,560 Speaker 1: you were working on science. Yeah, And and the U 955 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:39,160 Speaker 1: and communication worked differently because this pre internet. Yeah. So um. 956 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: The United States and in the wake of this, calls 957 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:47,400 Speaker 1: for Japan's surrender according to the earlier terms. Japan did 958 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:52,440 Speaker 1: not immediately respond, which then led to the August ninth 959 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: bombing of Nagasaki. Uh This was the plutonium implosion method. 960 00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,200 Speaker 1: This was the one that they had tested previously. This 961 00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,240 Speaker 1: was called Man and it was carried by a plane 962 01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:07,880 Speaker 1: named box Box Car b O C K not b 963 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,920 Speaker 1: O X, and Nagasaki was actually the secondary target. The 964 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,600 Speaker 1: primary target was the Kokura Arsenal, which would have been 965 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,800 Speaker 1: more of a military target than Nagasaki was, but weather 966 01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 1: prevented the pilot, Charles Sweeney, from flying over it. He 967 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,000 Speaker 1: felt that there was too low of a chance that 968 01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:27,520 Speaker 1: he would be able to drop the bomb on the 969 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,200 Speaker 1: intended target, so he swapped swapped out to his secondary target, 970 01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:34,240 Speaker 1: which was Nagasaki. I was dropped at an altitude of 971 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,920 Speaker 1: twenty nine thousand feet and detonated one thousand, six hundred 972 01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,720 Speaker 1: fifty feet above Nagasaki at eleven oh one am and 973 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,760 Speaker 1: exploded with a force of twenty one thousand tons of TNT. 974 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:51,600 Speaker 1: Now it killed forty thousand people and injured another sixty 975 01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:55,080 Speaker 1: thousand on that initial explosion, and the eventual death toll 976 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,760 Speaker 1: was calculated at around a hundred forty thousand, largely because 977 01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,040 Speaker 1: Nagasaki did not have the same population density as Hiroshima. 978 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,439 Speaker 1: Wasn't that it wasn't that this was a less devastating bomb. 979 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:10,560 Speaker 1: It was that due to the geography, it affected fewer people. 980 01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,160 Speaker 1: So in the space of just a few days, Yeah, 981 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:21,840 Speaker 1: Japan lost three. Ultimately would lose three. The initial would 982 01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 1: be closer to a hundred ten thousand Yeah, in two bombings. UH, devastating, 983 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:35,960 Speaker 1: absolutely devastating. UM. The Manhattan Project itself would continue because 984 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:39,360 Speaker 1: while it had built these bombs specifically for the purpose 985 01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,720 Speaker 1: of bringing World War two to an end. Uh, the 986 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: research was going to continue on and it would end 987 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:53,080 Speaker 1: officially in and hand over the research into atomic weaponry 988 01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:58,040 Speaker 1: to a new group, the Atomic Energy Commission, which we 989 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,200 Speaker 1: talked about extensively when we took cover at Area fifty one. 990 01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,160 Speaker 1: Atomic Energy Commission was important during the the establishment of 991 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,920 Speaker 1: Area fifty one, So I mentioned that there had been 992 01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,800 Speaker 1: a spy who reported to the Soviet Union. That would 993 01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:16,200 Speaker 1: be Klaus Fuchs, who was part of the British contention 994 01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 1: of scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project. It was 995 01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,800 Speaker 1: not discovered until nineteen nine that he was actually a 996 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:26,000 Speaker 1: Soviet agent. So throughout the entirety of the Manhattan Project, 997 01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:27,600 Speaker 1: all the way to the point where it was over, 998 01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,840 Speaker 1: he was feeding information to the Soviet Union. He was 999 01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,640 Speaker 1: caught and convicted of espionage and was eventually released in 1000 01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine. He then moved to what was then 1001 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,360 Speaker 1: East Germany. Kids, if you don't know that there was 1002 01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,520 Speaker 1: an East Germany, there was for a while. Uh, you 1003 01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:50,040 Speaker 1: need to look that up. He was eventually Um. He 1004 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:54,040 Speaker 1: eventually rather provided information that helped China develop its first 1005 01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: atomic bomb. Yeah. So you may have heard stories recently 1006 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,920 Speaker 1: in the past few years about a scientist named A. Q. 1007 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:09,640 Speaker 1: Kahn continually linked to other countries acquiring nuclear weaponry or 1008 01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:14,920 Speaker 1: knowledge of the atomic process. Uh. This is um Claus 1009 01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,840 Speaker 1: food Fukes is like the original version of that, and 1010 01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:23,000 Speaker 1: did quite a bit to propagate this technology. Also, Um, 1011 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:29,800 Speaker 1: the Manhattan Project, on balance is fairly lucky that he's 1012 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,000 Speaker 1: the kind of spy. He was a spy sent to 1013 01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:38,600 Speaker 1: feed information rather than to stymy the progress. It made 1014 01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,240 Speaker 1: a contribution. The goal of ending World War two was 1015 01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,960 Speaker 1: shared obviously by both Stalin and uh the United States. Um. 1016 01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:52,200 Speaker 1: But obviously Stalin also had a very strong interest in 1017 01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,040 Speaker 1: gaining that information for on behalf of Soviet Union, so 1018 01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,440 Speaker 1: that the United States would not have the upper hand 1019 01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,760 Speaker 1: for very long in what would then become the Cold War. 1020 01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,280 Speaker 1: Another important person that we didn't really mention. I mean, 1021 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,760 Speaker 1: there's so many, there are times there's there's just the 1022 01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,200 Speaker 1: list of names connected to the Manhattan Project as incredibly long, 1023 01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,160 Speaker 1: hundred thirty thousand as it turns out. Um. But another 1024 01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:19,480 Speaker 1: important person on the physics side was Edward Teller, a 1025 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,240 Speaker 1: theoretical physicist. He was the one who was really pushing 1026 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,800 Speaker 1: for the development of the hydrogen bomb. In fact, he 1027 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:27,600 Speaker 1: has been referred to as the father of the hydrogen bomb, 1028 01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,240 Speaker 1: a name he did not like. Um. They called it 1029 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,080 Speaker 1: the super bomb during the Manhattan Project, and eventually it 1030 01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:39,920 Speaker 1: would be developed, uh, not really not used, but but 1031 01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:44,080 Speaker 1: developed and tested. So that is the story of the 1032 01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,920 Speaker 1: Manhattan Project, from the beginning all the way to the 1033 01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,240 Speaker 1: development and deployment of the two atomic bombs that were 1034 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,640 Speaker 1: dropped on Japan. Yeah, and we touched on a lot 1035 01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,160 Speaker 1: of things that are stories in themselves, the U S 1036 01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,560 Speaker 1: SRS program. I think Stalin learned of the US program 1037 01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:06,640 Speaker 1: or the US intentions in which and then there's this 1038 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,560 Speaker 1: there's this story that I think you mentioned in part 1039 01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:14,560 Speaker 1: one about what happens to um, the scientists who are 1040 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:19,240 Speaker 1: held consentially or not in the German program, and uh, 1041 01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,600 Speaker 1: you know operation paper clip, what you get more rocketry. 1042 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,000 Speaker 1: That's more rocketry on the U S side. But the 1043 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:31,120 Speaker 1: USS are forcibly abducted some scientists from the German program. 1044 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,160 Speaker 1: Very strange times. There's there's tons of stuff we can 1045 01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:37,000 Speaker 1: talk about, and in fact, I'm sure stuff they don't 1046 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:38,360 Speaker 1: want you to know. US covered quite a bit of 1047 01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,920 Speaker 1: this materiality one or two. Yeah, so I highly recommend 1048 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,240 Speaker 1: you go check out that show just in general, but 1049 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,760 Speaker 1: especially if you want to learn more about, you know, 1050 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the tactics that were employed. This was I mean, there 1051 01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,320 Speaker 1: are no games higher stakes than this, right, this is 1052 01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,920 Speaker 1: this is incredibly grim stuff when you boil it down 1053 01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,000 Speaker 1: to what's actually the end goal and what is happening. 1054 01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:08,080 Speaker 1: And as a result, uh, there are nations and people 1055 01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,840 Speaker 1: who will you know, there's no there's no limit to 1056 01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,640 Speaker 1: what they will know the tactics they will employ to 1057 01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,680 Speaker 1: achieve the goal because the goal the stakes are so high. 1058 01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:24,360 Speaker 1: And uh, sometimes that leads to stories of heroism, which 1059 01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,640 Speaker 1: is amazing. Sometimes it leads to stories of that is dirty, 1060 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,920 Speaker 1: underhanded stuff, you know that uprooting people whether they are 1061 01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:37,160 Speaker 1: quote unquote on the wrong side or not, and forcing 1062 01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:39,920 Speaker 1: them to work on your behalf. In some cases, there 1063 01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:41,560 Speaker 1: were people who were more than willing to do that 1064 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,360 Speaker 1: because to them, the science was what was important. They 1065 01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,960 Speaker 1: were that their ultimate moral compass. Can I work on 1066 01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,520 Speaker 1: the science? Yeah, And it wasn't so much who who 1067 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,040 Speaker 1: is the person like, I'm not the one who decides 1068 01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,720 Speaker 1: who this gets used on. I'm the one who figures 1069 01:06:56,720 --> 01:07:00,160 Speaker 1: out whether or not it works. Um. It's just an 1070 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,600 Speaker 1: odd story, and there's so many of them. But on 1071 01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,840 Speaker 1: all sides, So could I ask you, um and tell 1072 01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:08,680 Speaker 1: me if this is to tell me if this is 1073 01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,160 Speaker 1: too much of a heavier speculative thing. What's that? Do 1074 01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:17,200 Speaker 1: you think the world is a better place with this technology? Oh? Boy, 1075 01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:25,600 Speaker 1: I quarrel with it myself. I think I think nuclear 1076 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:30,520 Speaker 1: power certainly has some very important applications, uh, some of 1077 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:37,000 Speaker 1: which are incredibly beneficial to humanity, even with the problematic 1078 01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:42,640 Speaker 1: nuclear fuel and nuclear waste issues. Um. So on that side, 1079 01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:47,440 Speaker 1: I think that it was incredibly important and beneficial. From 1080 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,960 Speaker 1: a weaponry side, I think it just caused enormous amounts 1081 01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:56,960 Speaker 1: of harm beyond the obvious of the people who lost 1082 01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,160 Speaker 1: their lives as a result of the bombs being dropped. 1083 01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:04,600 Speaker 1: There are stories of people who who uh may have 1084 01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:09,200 Speaker 1: developed cancer just from working on the projects. Whether or 1085 01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,480 Speaker 1: not that's actually the cause, it's impossible to say because 1086 01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,240 Speaker 1: they're just too many vectors to take into account, but 1087 01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,519 Speaker 1: it seems like it's a likely source at least for 1088 01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:21,599 Speaker 1: some of the cases, if not many of them. Um, 1089 01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the Cold War was awful. I mean it 1090 01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:29,000 Speaker 1: led to the space race, which was awesome, and a 1091 01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:34,240 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of the world changing or civilization 1092 01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:38,720 Speaker 1: changing technology that we have today comes from times of conflict. Yeah, 1093 01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:40,600 Speaker 1: it's true. I mean, we would not be where we 1094 01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,120 Speaker 1: are today without that conflict. But I don't necessarily think 1095 01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:46,280 Speaker 1: that's put us in a great place. I mean, there's 1096 01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:51,240 Speaker 1: certainly there are current conflicts in the world Cold and 1097 01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:56,120 Speaker 1: otherwise that uh, the presence of nuclear weapons have made 1098 01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:01,639 Speaker 1: far more complex and higher stakes than would otherwise exist. 1099 01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:05,519 Speaker 1: And I'm not a big fan of that. So, I mean, 1100 01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:08,880 Speaker 1: and ultimately, I do believe that the Allied Powers would 1101 01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:12,040 Speaker 1: have won World War Two without the use of atomic weapons. 1102 01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,080 Speaker 1: You know, it would have happened. The question is how 1103 01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,599 Speaker 1: long would it have taken and how much more would Japan? 1104 01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:24,840 Speaker 1: Would Japan have suffered more due to the nature of 1105 01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:28,560 Speaker 1: the war, than it did from the bombs. That's a 1106 01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:30,800 Speaker 1: question that's impossible to answer because there's no way of 1107 01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:34,720 Speaker 1: knowing how it would have turned out otherwise. Um And 1108 01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,800 Speaker 1: ultimately you start to wonder if perhaps the bombing of 1109 01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:42,200 Speaker 1: Japan was not only to force Japan to capitulate to 1110 01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,799 Speaker 1: the United States demands and the Allied demands of surrender, 1111 01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,760 Speaker 1: but also perhaps a demonstration of the United States is 1112 01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:55,240 Speaker 1: superiority and weaponry to say, hey, everybody in the world, 1113 01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,400 Speaker 1: pay attention, because this is what we can do now. 1114 01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,840 Speaker 1: And I would like to think that that was if 1115 01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:07,439 Speaker 1: apart the smallest of parts, but something deep inside me 1116 01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:12,439 Speaker 1: worries about that. And that wraps up Part two of 1117 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:16,320 Speaker 1: our discussion about the Manhattan Project. Tech Stuff Takes Manhattan. 1118 01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:19,800 Speaker 1: Thanks to Ben Boland for joining the show way back 1119 01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:22,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand and fifteen. You're a real minch or 1120 01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,120 Speaker 1: at least you were seven years ago. I'm sure you 1121 01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,920 Speaker 1: still are. I mean, we're arch nemesses now because I'm 1122 01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:33,880 Speaker 1: I'm his alter ego villain character Quister on Ridiculous History. 1123 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,439 Speaker 1: So yeah, I have to have him back on the 1124 01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:40,040 Speaker 1: show so that he can get his licks in since 1125 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,360 Speaker 1: I'm always on his shows. Giving him grief. If you 1126 01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:45,920 Speaker 1: have suggestions for topics we should cover in future episodes 1127 01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,040 Speaker 1: of tech Stuff, please reach out the best way to 1128 01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:50,280 Speaker 1: do that is on Twitter. The handle for the show 1129 01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:53,639 Speaker 1: is tech Stuff hs W and I'll talk to you again, 1130 01:10:54,360 --> 01:11:03,439 Speaker 1: Really Sick. Text Stuff is an I Heart Radio production. 1131 01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:06,479 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 1132 01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,800 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1133 01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:10,800 Speaker 1: your favorite shows,