WEBVTT - Week in Tech: AI’s Problem Solving Problem 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.760 Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.599 I'ma's Voloshan and carac prices out this week, so I'll 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.680 be bringing you the headlines of the week, including AI's 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.960 black box problem and open Eyes push to infiltrate college campuses. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.520 And on today's Tech Support segment, we'll talk to four 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.680 or four Media's Jason Kebler about the weird world of 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.880 body scans and the future of TSA security. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:44.440 Airplanes and airports in general are interesting because it feels 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.640 like new technologies are like rolled out there before they're 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:50.240 rolled out more broadly into society. 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.480 All of that On the weekend Tech It's a Spooky Day, Friday, 0:00:54.600 --> 0:01:02.200 June thirteenth. As I mentioned, Carras out this week, so 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.800 we're going to dive right into the headlines, and a 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.679 couple of big stories have been on my mind, both 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.400 highlighting that as AI becomes more and more ubiquitous and 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.360 as a rush to deploy it, we still don't fully 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.480 understand how these systems actually work. AI models are such 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.160 a black box that even the developers who build them 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.160 can't always explain or predict the behavior of their models, 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.080 And this week, Axios released a detailed roundup of how 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.959 leaders are simultaneously admitting this lack of knowledge while also 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:39.039 pushing for rapid deployment and implementation. Here's an example. Anthropic, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.039 while testing its latest model, Clawed four, gave the model 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:47.640 access to corporate emails, setting up this fictional scenario where 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.400 Claude knew that one it was going to be shut 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.520 down and two that the engineer responsible for shutting it 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.400 down was having an affair. In eighty four percent of 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:02.280 cases when this test was run, the model attempted to 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:07.080 blackmail the engineer, supposedly to preserve itself. And here's the thing. 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.600 Anthropic doesn't know how the new model chose blackmail as 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.880 a tactic or how to prevent it from doing so 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.320 in future, but Anthropic released the model. Now there is 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.920 an accepted term to refer to this problem I that 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.920 we don't yet understand the why of AI's behavior, and 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:32.040 that term is interpretability. CEOs of AI companies like open 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:36.360 Ai Samultman and Anthropics Dario Amode have openly acknowledged that 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.120 quote interpretability is an important problem to solve and that 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.919 our lack of understanding about how these models work can 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.200 pose significant risk in April, A. Mooday wrote that quote 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:51.280 people outside the field are often surprised and alarmed to 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.680 learn that we do not understand how our AI creations work. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.239 They are right to be concerned. This lack of understanding 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.680 is essentially unprecedented in the history of technology. The question 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.600 to me is is there enough investment and attention going 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.360 towards this problem versus the race forever stronger performance between 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:14.480 privately funded companies. AI is being developed and implemented without 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:19.239 meaningful guardrails, and that's something that US government is actively encouraging. 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.800 In fact, President Trump's Big Beautiful Bill includes a provision 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:28.799 for a decade long ban on states attempting to regulate AI, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:34.600 either through new regulations or through enforcing existing regulations. Now 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:36.440 the bill has been passed by the House and is 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.600 being heard in the Senate. Changes are very possible because 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.400 even Republican senators like Josh Hawley of Missouri and Marshall 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.120 Blackburn of Tennessee have pushed back on this ban. Now, 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.800 for those hoping humans will maintain control over AI, there 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.360 is some potentially encouraging news coming out of Apple This week. 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:59.680 The company's machine learning researchers publish an academic paper with 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:05.280 very buzzy title, The Illusion of Thinking. The paper studies 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:09.400 reasoning models like open Aiyes three and deep seeks are one, 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.960 which are models designed to problem solve. What the Apple 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.640 paper found is that when these reasoning models are presented 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:20.440 with complex logic problems, the models fail to solve the problems. 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.839 Mashable reports that in the study, reasoning models were given 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.799 classic logic puzzles like jumping checker pieces into empty spaces, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.120 or the river crossing problem, the one involving a fox, 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.599 a chicken, and a bag of grain. This is a 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.240 pretty simple test of a human's ability to problem solve, 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.600 because once you figure out the rules, it's actually pretty 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.240 easy to continue solving these problems even when they get 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:46.400 more complex. But these reasoning models start to fail at 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.240 a certain point. So the big question is is this 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.280 simply a bump in the road or is it indicative 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.360 of a larger problem in how these reasoning models actually work. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.080 Which brings me to my next headline from the New 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:04.320 York Times, Welcome to campus, here's your chat GPT. Because 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.919 if critical thinking and logical reasoning skills are where humans 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.200 still have an edge over AI, it's pretty reasonable to me. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.720 There are concerns about the rise of AI on college campuses. 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.880 Apparently Open Ai has a plan to integrate chatbots into 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.320 every facet of student life, and they're calling the goal 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.880 of this AI integrated higher ed quote AI Native Universities. 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:31.719 A suite of premium services called chat gpt Edu is 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.960 being sold to universities for faculty and students to use, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.800 and the company is promising AI tutors and chatbots that 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.799 can do everything from conduct mock job interviews to quiz 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.880 you before exams. Schools are getting in on the action. 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.720 California State University is making chatchipt available to more than 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:54.240 four hundred and sixty thousand students. Duke University made its 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:59.320 own AI powered platform called Duke gpt, and in June 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:04.479 they began offering unlimited Chatchipt access to students and faculty. 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.400 Even if a campus isn't striking a deal with open Ai. 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.520 There's a marketing campaign targeting the handful and I assume 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.160 it is a handful of students who aren't yet using chatchypt. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.840 Many find this all deeply troubling, especially as there's new 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:24.440 data and research to suggest that so called cognitive offloading 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.200 I letting a chatbot write your first draft or think 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:33.039 for you makes you measurably less able to problem solve yourself. 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.640 On the other hand, recent grads are facing historically tough 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.320 job market, especially in fields where AI is starting to 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.880 automate tasks like writing code. So these schools are trying 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.799 to boost their students' prospects by providing them with AI 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.560 tools and with the skills to make the most of 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.680 the tools. So is this strange moment where we don't 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.159 really understand how our lambs make their decisions or how 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.240 using them affects our brains. But they're here, We're using 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.120 them anyway, and we and they are adapting in real time. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.640 As The Times puts it, quote open ayes pushed to 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:13.080 AIIFI college education amounts to a national experiment on millions 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:21.920 of students. I've got a couple more headlines for you, 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.360 and one starts with an old idea brought to life 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.960 with modern technology. About half of all people on Earth 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:33.000 experience some form of water scarcity. But could that change 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:37.120 if you drink the ocean. Desalination, the process of removing 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.760 salt to create clean drinking water, has been possible for decades, 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:45.280 but it's the most expensive way to create clean drinking water. However, 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.240 The Wall Street Journal recently spoke to three companies that 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:52.360 are experimenting with an alternative method, a potential solution we've 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.040 known about for years, but that is now being made 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.480 possible by the improved functionality and lower prices of deep 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:04.240 sea roboots, under sea power cables, and other technologies. Basically, 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.920 the old way of desalinating water involved pumping seawater to 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.200 the surface and then boiling it to create clean water. 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.760 The new way involves an underwater membrane that uses the 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:20.040 ocean's natural pressure to filter out salt before clean water 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.920 is then pumped to the surface. It's a method that 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.840 could save significant energy and money. Sometimes innovation relies on 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:33.160 simple upgrades, other times it's all about competition. President Donald 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.160 Trump's one hundred and seventy five billion dollar plan for 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.480 a quote Golden Dome defense system has triggered a race 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.160 between tech companies and defense groups. According to Financial Times, 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.040 the idea is to create a space based system that 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:52.679 can detect and destroy foreign weapons like missiles at launch. 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:57.000 The Trump administration is called for quote non traditional contractors 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.000 to help create a system. Cue the competition between ten 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.480 tech companies like Paneteer and Microsoft, and established defense contractors 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.640 like Lockheed Martin. This all comes at a time when 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.360 big tech companies like Meta are stepping into the world 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:16.359 of developing military technology, and startup defense companies like Anderil 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.920 are raising money at huge valuations ahead of plans to 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.600 go public. The Missile Defense Agency plans to award ten 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.520 year contracts in an open competitive process, and so far 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.200 the agency has gotten over five hundred responses to their 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:38.959 request for information. After the break, we'll hear from four 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.520 or four Media's Jason Kebler about the dreaded airport pat 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:57.160 down and its future high tech makeover. So for our 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.080 next segment, we're going to dive into one of the 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:03.000 more annoying parts travel, especially for anyone who flies frequently, 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.880 airport security and the role technology. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:06.920 Plays in it. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.040 In response to nine to eleven, the Transportation Security Administration, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.800 or TSA was born. Ever since, TSA has been part 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.800 of the flying experience here in the US, ensuring that 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.920 passengers are safe and highly agitated, one plastic bin at 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.800 a time. If you're not one of about thirty percent 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.839 of American fliers with TSA pre check, you know the 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.920 drill put your personal items in a plastic bin, take 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.480 off your shoes, put your bins through the conveyor belt 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.600 where they will go under a scanner, walk through a 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.720 body scanner, and then if you're unlucky or you've forgot 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.600 to take a receipt out of your pocket, you might 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.000 be pulled aside for an intimate pat down, which can 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.200 be pretty awkward. Over the years, there have been multiple 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.800 upgrades to TSA technology, from more discerning luggage scanners to 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.520 full body scans in place of metal detectors. But the 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.440 latest idea from the Department of Homeland Security, well, I 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.400 certainly don't see it coming. And here to tell us 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.520 how virtual reality could forever alter the dreaded pat down 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.640 process is four or four Media's Jason Kebler. Jason, thanks 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:10.800 for coming back to tech stuff. 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:12.680 Hey, thanks for having me. So. 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:14.839 I'm always quite fascinated by airport so I spent a 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.080 lot of time in them, and so when I saw 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.840 your most recent piece with the headline TSA working on 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.960 heptic tech to feel your body in virtual reality, I 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.560 had to know more. What inspired the piece and what 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:28.040 did you learn? 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.520 Yeah, I mean I think that since nine to eleven, 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.480 TSA has been looking for ways to quote unquote improve. 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:37.559 The security process. 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:39.679 It's like one day you'll just show up at the 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:41.839 airport and they'll have all new machines and it will 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.360 be like a totally different process. And I think that 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.720 airplane security and airport security is something that the United 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.320 States really likes to spend money on, I mean, for 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:53.720 sort of obvious reasons. 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.120 After something like nine to eleven. There's sort of the. 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.920 Security theater of it all where it's like, please take 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.080 off your shoes, We're going to go through your bags. 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.440 Sometimes you can bring liquids, sometimes you can't. It really 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.320 feels like a roll of the dice. And so TSA 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:12.640 has been basically researching this technology to give their agents 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:18.360 virtual reality goggles and then haptic feedback gloves, and so 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.880 haptic feedback is like where you wear a glove and 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:26.200 you can literally like feel in virtual reality. And so 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:32.959 they've really designed this incredibly complex and seemingly like overkill 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.520 a piece of technology where instead of doing a pat down, 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.280 which notoriously can be very invasive, like that certainly is 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.240 a problem, they're saying, well, people don't like those, so 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.040 we're going to do a virtual reality pat down by 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.880 using these like advanced sensors to detect the outlines of 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.400 someone's body and see if they have like sharp objects 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.040 that they're trying to smuggle in, and then the TSA 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.160 officer will be able to see that in their virtual 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.320 reality and also like feel that in their haptic gloves, 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.280 but without actually touching you. And so I don't know, 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.080 I don't know how you feel about it. I saw 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.360 it and I was like, this is this seems like overkill? 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.560 And in some ways, it's like the clothes, right, there's that, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.280 and then there's also like nominally, like if someone is 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.480 touching you, you can say I don't like that, like 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.960 stop doing that. But you know, in this case, they're 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.000 literally creating like a three D scan of your body, 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:35.160 and in some ways it's like possibly more invasive. I 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.800 don't know, it's it's just like very weird technology. I 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.640 think it's kind of uncharted territory. 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.600 What does it mean to feel when we're talking about 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:43.240 haptic tech? 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.280 Yeah, so I've never done it myself. Like this technology 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.959 does exist in rudimentary form, but as I understand it, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.360 it's like you're wearing a glove that has electronics in it, 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.000 and like let's say you move your hand around, presumably 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.600 some air pockets or some thing in there will activate 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:05.240 so that your hand is feeling like a force back 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:10.960 against it. That would simulate you actually touching something. I'm 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.880 trying to think of like analogies for what that might be. Like, 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.600 I think maybe like a massage chair, Like imagine a 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:19.560 massage chair that. 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.920 You wear, or a video game controller or a steering 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.160 wheel that kind of rattles around and like moves your 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:25.920 hands and stuff. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.280 Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.200 So it's that and then the sort of like input 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.920 data would come from all these sensors that would like 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:41.000 project an image onto your hand, and then your hand 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.160 would be connected to this VR system so it would 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.440 track your hand around in virtual reality. And then you know, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.160 basically like put some physics in there where it says 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.800 like okay, you're touching a table, you're touching a person, 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.080 here's what it should feel like. And that technology does 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.640 exist where like handtrack in virtual reality, object tracking in 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.680 virtual reality, that sort of thing. So really like the 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.920 haptics is the new thing here and sort of making 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:14.120 that happen in real time where a sensor array is 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.360 grabbing all of that as you walk through security. 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.120 Use the word wild in your story, which I think 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.880 is an appropriate one. You know this obviously a podcast. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.320 Can you give a visual of what this will look like? 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.000 I mean the TSA agent wearing a headset, wearing these levels, 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:34.400 because there's also some quite amusing cartoons or like visualizations 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:36.320 that you're able to source in your reporting of what 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:37.800 TSA imagine this will look like. 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.640 Yeah, so I want to stress that a lot of 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.200 this comes from patent applications, which are you know, kind 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:48.280 of like it's very very early. We don't know that 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.920 if this technology is going to be deployed, whether it 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.480 will be deployed, what it will look like when it's deployed. 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:59.080 But in patent schematics and drawings, it's like they sort 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.320 of imagine and hey, this is what we think it 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.400 could look like. And so in the information sheet, they 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.800 have a TSA officer who has a computer strapped to 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.040 his face like a VR goggles, and he's holding up 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.520 a gloved hand, and then they have this diagram of 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.360 a baseball, like they drew a baseball on a table, 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.840 and then they have this, uh, they call it a glove, 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:32.400 but it's really like a hand computer like it's like 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.720 they took a touchpad and put it on someone's hand, 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.960 strapped it their hand, and that is the haptic feedback glove. 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:40.640 And so. 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.840 It reminded me of that toy I had when I 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.120 was a kid with all those little pins, the like 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.160 metal pins where you could put your hand or face and. 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:51.120 It would do an outline. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.880 Yeah, and so that's kind of what it's like, a 0:16:54.960 --> 0:17:00.320 digital recreation of that. They also have a diagram where 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.960 a person is trying to smuggle in scissors around their chest, 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.159 and so they have like a picture of scissors on 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.560 someone's chest, and then they have a picture of their 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.800 belt buckle and the hands are like right up on 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:18.280 their waist and the diagram makes sure to say that 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.920 it says, quote scan imagery obscured it due to proximity 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:28.719 to private body zone. And yeah, so this technology would 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:34.880 like somehow obscure I guess, your private areas because they're 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:36.080 conscious of your privacy. 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.000 But the idea is like you will stand facing a 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:45.360 TSA agent. They'll be wearing a virtual reality headset, running 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.119 their hands up and down your body but not actually 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.800 touching you, and then both feeling on their hands and 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.520 seeing in VR objects that maybe underneath your clothes. 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:57.080 That's what they're proposing. 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.840 And it certainly sounds like the TSA officer could be 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.280 right next to you, but they also make it sound 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.920 like they could be like in another room. For example, 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.640 you'd walk through some sort of sensor system that would 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.000 like scan your body in real time, and then the 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.280 officer either could be there and would be like, oh, 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.000 I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you, but they 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.439 could also be in another room doing this sort of 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:22.760 without you even knowing. 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.840 So how did you hear about this? And do you 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.000 have the sense this is something that would actually be 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.320 seeing in airports anytime soon? 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.560 Yeah, So it's interesting. The Department of Homeland. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:38.399 Security, which oversees TSA, actually published a two page information 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.840 sheet about this on its website. And I mean, I 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.000 guess this is something that they do periodically where they're like, 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.239 we have new research, come check it out, but they 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.720 publish it like pretty deep on their website. And frankly, 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.800 we have like a lot of nerds who read our 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:56.320 articles and are constantly scanning for things like this and 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.159 know that it's something that we would care about, you know. 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:03.520 We try to write about futuristic and weird technology, and 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.959 so one of our readers sent it to us. I 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.040 checked it out, and from that information sheet it said, 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.320 like want to learn more, go check out these patents. 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.040 Whether we see this in practice or not, I'm not sure. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.960 It seems pretty early, like I haven't seen video of 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.280 this working, like a prototype or anything like that. It 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:28.520 seems like it's more of a concept that they're working 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.440 on at the moment and our researching. I also think 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.800 that honestly, like since nine to eleven, TSA has kind 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.440 of dialed in the security screening process. I don't think 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.480 it's anything that anyone enjoys. But we're not waiting for 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.160 two hours at the security line anymore like we were 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.480 kind of immediately after nine to eleven. As unpleasant as 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:53.080 it can be, it's usually pretty quick. And so I 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.000 don't know if we'll ever see this, but it is 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:56.520 tech that they're researching. 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.360 And where does the money come from? 0:19:58.440 --> 0:19:58.840 Is this? 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:00.600 Like do we know how long it? You know how 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.119 much they've spent on it? Like what's the kind of 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.680 the structural backdrop of this type of project. 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.840 Yeah, So the Department of Homeland Security has an Office 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.840 of Science and Technology, but they don't say here's how 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:16.040 much money we spent on this specific virtual reality haptic 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.680 feedback remote sensing. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.960 Is the Nintendo we of apod security basically, right. 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:25.879 Yeah, but I think it is important to sort of 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.119 realize that we're in an era where a lot of 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:33.720 government funding is being slashed for new technologies. And I'm 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.800 not saying that DHS shouldn't be researching new technology, Like 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.480 a lot of new technology comes out of agencies like 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.600 the Department of Homeland Security, like the CIA, like the NSSA. 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.240 But at the same time, like this feels like something 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.399 that's a solution in search of a problem, I would say, 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.600 And so yeah, it's something to consider. Like we're slashing 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.520 budgets for science across the government, but we're not really 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.480 slashing budgets for the Department of Homeland Security. 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.120 Were increasing that budget if anything. 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.760 Yeah, I mean I did see on your reporting that 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.399 I think they filed the patents for this technology in 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.040 twenty twenty two, so I guess under the Biden. 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.720 Administration they've been working on it for a while. 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.199 I mean, this is not like a recent fancy, so 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.800 that's kind of interesting. I Mean, some people say the 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:25.000 whole VR is a solution in search of a problem, right, 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.679 But like, what's the wider arc of leading edge tech 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.400 for the miniature industrial complex. 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:37.239 Yeah, it's interesting because VR and the metaverse, which you know, 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.080 associated technology, has been a massive flop. 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:42.439 Like it was the. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.320 AI before there was AI, it was crypto before it 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:48.600 was crypto. Like that, there was tons and tons of 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.879 hype about VR being just around the corner and people 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.120 using it for all sorts of things, whether to work, 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.720 to play, to game. But interestingly, like one of the 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.720 places where VR has actually been useful has been on 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:06.640 the job training and for things like post traumatic stress disorder, 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.040 exposure therapy for soldiers and things like that, and so 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:16.320 the military actually has found some uses for virtual reality. 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:20.639 At the same time, DHS has been really interested in 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:27.600 using virtual reality to kind of like see through things 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:29.600 for lack of a better term, Like there was this 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.760 project that Customs and Border Patrol tried to do where 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.760 they wanted to use virtual reality goggles in a way 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:40.000 similar to this to see through boxes in order to 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:44.400 determine whether like counterfeit goods were being brought into the country. 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.600 As far as I know, they're not doing anything like that. 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.680 That was a project that has been around for many 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:54.560 years and was never deployed. There's been university research that 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:57.320 was associated with the Department of Homeland Security where they 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:02.360 wanted to use VR at the border to see terrorists, 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:05.280 is what they said, but they never explained. Yeah, they 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:08.120 never explained like how that would work. But I do 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.920 think that there was a period that is still going 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.679 on but has largely been taken over by AI, where 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:18.040 you would take any process that the government would do 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:20.800 or that any business would do, and say, well, how 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.040 can we add VR to this Because it's sort of 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.800 the hyped new technology. We can seem like we're forward looking, 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.880 and we can also maybe get some money to research something. 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:31.560 That makes sense. 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:35.480 Are there any other interesting airport tech stories that you've 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:36.560 come across recently? 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:39.360 I need to do more reporting on this, but facial 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:43.280 recognition is very very common at airports now. Global Entry, 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.760 which is a customs and border patrol system where you 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:48.920 don't need to show your passport if you've been pre 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:53.359 vetted and are an American citizen, now uses facial recognition 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:55.520 where you just get off the plane and they detect 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:57.159