1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: and today we're talking about how to get paid what's 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: You're worth with Alex Carter. That's right, buddy. Today's conversation 4 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: is going to be all about getting that raise that 5 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: you deserve, and we believe that by the end of 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: this episode, listeners are going to be ready to ask 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: for a higher salary. We're joined by Alex Carter, who 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: is a clinical professor of law and she's also the 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: director of the Mediation Clinic at Columbia Law School. But 10 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: she is also a leading trainer on negotiation and mediation 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: for many from the private and public sectors out there, 12 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: including the United Nations. That's right, the UN, but US 13 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: courts and federal agencies, corporations as well like Bloomberg, Amazon, 14 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: and Microsoft. So that means that Alex is more than 15 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: qualified to have written the book asked for more ten 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: questions to negotiate anything, and we are excited to talk 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: with her today. Alex, thank you for joining us today 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: on the podcast. Hey, Matt and Joel, I'm thrilled to 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: be here. We're glad to have you here, Alex. And 20 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: the first question we ask anybody who comes on the show, 21 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: we want to know kind of like what they like 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: to splore. John tells us a little bit bit about them, 23 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: also about how they handle their money. So I know 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: you're saving an investing for the future, but what are 25 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: you splurging on in the here and now too? Love 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: this question. I spend on support, you know, these days, 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: as a full time professor, as somebody who's doing keynote speaking, 28 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm writing, I'm also a busy wife and mom. I've 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: got an active social life with my friends. I find 30 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: that when I spend money on support, helping to support 31 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: myself with childcare, with help in the home, you know, 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: helping me to book those appointments or do that thing, 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, do those things that I need to do 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: outside of work, It's an investment in myself and a 35 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: sustainable work life that then carries me through so I 36 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: can perform at the level I want. I like it. 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: I think that's like really insightful too, Like you know 38 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: yourself and you know what you need, and it's it's 39 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: like you said, it's going to help you kind of 40 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: do the things you want to do without getting burned out. Yeah, 41 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: that's right. And support is something that people don't often 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: talk about you see the highlight reel on social media. 43 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: It looks like people are doing it all by themselves. 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I assure you I am not. Hey. I appreciate your 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: honesty and your transparency. Maybe you could. I guess it's 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: up to you whether or not you're gonna You're gonna 47 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: share highlight the folks who support you on social media 48 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: as well. But it's yeah, we appreciate you talking about that. 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: That's that's really cool. We are talking about negotiating today, 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: So Alex, how how bad is it? What are we 51 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: potentially giving up when we avoid negotiating. Yeah, So there 52 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: was a study done a number of years ago around 53 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: folks coming out of their MBA degree, and the folks 54 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: who didn't negotiate their first salary out of graduate school 55 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: ended up. You know, if everything from there remained the same, 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: the raises, the promotions from that point on, the person 57 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: who didn't negotiate would have to work years longer, something 58 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: like seven years wow, to retire at the same level. 59 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: But I want to say to your audience, if you 60 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: didn't always negotiate, the best time to start is today. 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: And it's never too late to start advocating for yourself 62 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: so that you can live the kind of life you 63 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: want to live, and you can retire the way you 64 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: want to retire. It's kind of like planting a tree, right, 65 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, the best time was yesterday, but then 66 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: the second best time is right now, and the same 67 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: It sounds like the same thing is true of negotiation. 68 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: But that word itself, negotiation, it tends to free people out. 69 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: Like if you whispered it in someone's ear, they rember like, yeah, 70 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: get away from me. Not just because you're whispering something 71 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: in my ear, but because you said the word. And 72 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: they think of it as being kind of like adversarial 73 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: in nature. But you say that it's not right. How 74 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: can we reframe that? Yeah, so people often think about 75 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: it as negotiation is synonymous with compromise, right, like I 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: have to lose or I'm going to give something up, 77 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: or it's this fight that I have to gear up for. 78 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: But I always say I actually learned what negotiation was 79 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: on my honeymoon, and not because Matt and Joel. I 80 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: married another lawyer. Although you have certainly added a dynamic 81 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: to the situation. But picture this, I'm in a kayak 82 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: in Hawaii with my husband in the back, and our 83 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: guide says, all right, folks, let's negotiate these things to 84 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: the left, because we're going to hit that beach up there. 85 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,559 Speaker 1: And I remember thinking, oh my god, I can't believe 86 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: of all places in Hawaii, I'm learning now what negotiation 87 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: really is. It's not just the once a year performance 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: review conversations. It's not just the difficult versation I have 89 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: to have with my client over money. Negotiation is steering. 90 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: It's simply the way you steer the relationships in your 91 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: life with your colleagues, with your boss, with your future 92 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: clients and your current clients, and all the people in 93 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: your life. And when you think about negotiation not just 94 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: as the fight over money, but simply the process of 95 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: steering those relationships in a mutually good way, you're in 96 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: the driver's seat in a way that you weren't before. 97 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: You know what. The other thing I'm going to say 98 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: is that when you're steering those relationships, you brought up 99 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 1: the word adversary. People come in to have me train 100 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: them all the time on high stakes, quote unquote adversarial negotiations. 101 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: You're negotiating a huge package with your boss, or maybe 102 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: you're a supplier and you're negotiating with a retailer. Guess what, 103 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: in both of those situations, your quote unquote adversary is 104 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: your partner once that deal is done, and you want 105 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: to make them from the beginning a co conspirator in 106 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: your success. That's what negotiation is. I love that. Yeah, 107 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: you said that. It's steering relationships. It is not compromising. 108 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: It is not an adversarial fight. Do you think that 109 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: that's basically the biggest misconception when it comes to negotiating 110 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: that the folks are just approaching just the entire conversation 111 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: like they're entering it with the wrong mindset. It's like 112 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: a battle motif going on in their mind or something. Yeah. 113 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: I think it's fear. And what happens then is because 114 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: people think, well, this is going to be a fight, 115 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: and the only people who can win this fight are 116 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: the people who take up the most space in the 117 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: room and are the most aggressive. So I'm going to 118 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: count myself out. That's not me. I can't do it. 119 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: So I see people with this limited view of what 120 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: it is, and therefore they just shrink away from it 121 00:06:54,760 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: when I really want people to know, negotiation is for everyone, 122 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: and I can give you tools to help you do 123 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: it your way. If you're somebody who's collaborative, you're great 124 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: at relationships, you generate trust, congratulations you're a negotiator, and 125 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: let us help you. And so that kind of makes 126 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: me think that it is this more long term thing 127 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: I think oftentimes we think of negotiations is like, oh, 128 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to sit down in that meeting and do 129 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: the negotiation tomorrow. What do I need to know at advance? 130 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: But it's more long form in nature, right, So how 131 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: do we approach negotiation when we're thinking about it from 132 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: that kind of forest, not the tree's perspective? Absolutely, I 133 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: love zooming out to see the bigger picture. Well, it 134 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: starts not in a place that most people expect. The 135 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: first negotiation you have in every circumstance is with yourself. 136 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: And the biggest mistake I saw people making, even really credentialed, brilliant, 137 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: hardworking people, is that they didn't know how to steer 138 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: that relationship, the one with themselves and ask themselves the 139 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: right questions even before they get in the room with 140 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: somebody else. And when they don't do that, I can 141 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: see it sometimes if you've ever frozen up in a negotiation. 142 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: If you've ever thought, oh my gosh, I'm not sure 143 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: how to prioritize these things that are coming at me 144 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: or deal with a curveball, chances are you could use 145 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: a little bit more of what I call the mirror. 146 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: This is you spending focus time. And I give you 147 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: just a few questions for you to think about that 148 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: are going to help you save so much time. You're 149 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: going to have more clarity, more confidence, and more efficiency. 150 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: And who doesn't want that? And I think everybody wants that. Yeah, 151 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: like you've got to do that internal work first. So yeah, 152 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: can you share some of those questions here with our listeners? 153 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: Can you elaborate? Absolutely? So the first one, And I 154 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: remember speaking to the Wall Street Journal back when ask 155 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: for More came out, and they said, where does it start? 156 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: And I said, it starts here. Asking yourself, what's the 157 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: problem I want to solve? You know, it seems like 158 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: shouldn't I know that already? Is that something I really 159 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: need to do? I'm just going into my boss to 160 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: ask for a raise. Even then, I would ask you 161 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: to think about what's the problem you're trying to solve. 162 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: Is it that perhaps during the pandemic you took on 163 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of extra work with a lot of churn 164 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: and people leaving, and now the role you're doing is 165 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: not the role you were hired for, and you need 166 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: compensation to match that. That's one kind of conversation. If 167 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: you're going in instead because somebody reached out to you 168 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: and now you thought you knew what was market for 169 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: your position, it's clear the market has shifted, but you'd 170 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: like to stay at your current company, that's a different 171 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: type of conversation. So thinking about what is really the 172 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: problem I want to solve is going to help not 173 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: only shape what you ask for, but how you ask 174 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: for it. And it's going to mean that right at 175 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: the top of the conversation, you're going to be able 176 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: to frame that up in a really concise and powerful way. 177 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: The second and last thing I would highlight. You know, 178 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: there are five questions in the book that are what 179 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: I call mirror questions, but a really important question that 180 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: I'm working with people on right now is what do 181 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: I need? You know, money is just the beginning. When 182 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: you are going in to negotiate. I want you to 183 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: think about everything you need, and I want you to 184 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: put it into two buckets. Tangible and intangible. Tangible could 185 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: be things that you could touch, see or count. Right, 186 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: So it's my salary, it's my bonus. Perhaps it's equity, 187 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: all those different monetary buckets. It might be title, it 188 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: might be headcount. So that could be your tangibles. But 189 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: then I want you also to think about the intangibles, 190 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: the values that you stand for. And I think this 191 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: is really going to resonate with your audience. We find 192 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: that millennial and gen ze workers in particular really value 193 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: certain things. And if you've ever been in a job 194 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: where it ticked all the obvious boxes but you just 195 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: felt I'm not in the right place or this isn't 196 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: working for me, those are your intangible speaking So thinking 197 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: about those that could be freedom, it could be growth, 198 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: And for each one of those, asking yourself, Okay, what 199 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: does freedom look like for me in this job? What 200 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: does growth look like for me? What might respect look 201 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: like for me? And that then gives you the complete 202 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: package of everything. It's going to take tangible and intangible 203 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: to really create the work life you want and set 204 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: you up to retire. Yeah, I think a lot of 205 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: people assume that the thing they're supposed to ask for 206 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: is more money, but when they do some of that 207 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: internal work, they might find wait a second, it's actually 208 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: if I may more money, that wouldn't move the needle 209 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: all that much. And what I would really love to 210 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: have is like two or three more weeks of vacation 211 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: every single year. And your employer might even be more 212 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: amenable to giving you those weeks off than they would 213 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: be to giving you a raise. And so it's kind 214 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: of this win win. But when we don't identify those 215 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: desires and identify what we really want before we get 216 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: into that conversation, like, we might find ourselves at an 217 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: impast when otherwise there could have been some sort of 218 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: solution between the two parties. Right, yes, And let me 219 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: give you a short example. So I was working with 220 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: a woman who got promoted and she quickly maxed them 221 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: out on the money. And she'd done some research, so 222 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: she knew they were being straight with her when they 223 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: said this is the max we have for this position. 224 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: So because she had thought about what else do I need? 225 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: She realized that she's in New York, this new role 226 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: was going to be a bicoastal role. She was going 227 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: to have to go to LA for a week every month, 228 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: and so what did she do. She negotiated for her 229 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: husband to be able to accompany her every other month 230 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: expenses paid on that trip because part of what she 231 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: needed from that was my marriage is really important and 232 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: I want to sustain that connection. Excellent example of creative negotiating. 233 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: I love that. That's so good. So you mentioned that 234 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: you have five different what you call mirror questions, and 235 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're going to touch on this one, 236 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: but you talk about feelings and how important those are 237 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: as well, and you know, anxiety and fear, like they 238 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: just have the ability to completely shut down someone who 239 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: maybe they've already identified their needs, right, And so how 240 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: can someone listening harness, and how can someone maybe use 241 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: those feelings to their advantage as opposed to just completely 242 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: shutting them down. I love that you brought that up. 243 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: And I call feelings the F word because a lot 244 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 1: of people, especially when we're wearing a suit, don't want 245 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: to talk about or think about our feelings. And I 246 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: know that people have said in the past, you know, 247 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: when you negotiate, you have to put your feelings aside. No, 248 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: in fact, feelings are how we make decisions. Think about 249 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: the largest financial decisions you've made in your life, a job, 250 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: your first home, a lot of those. It's our feelings 251 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: talking to us and saying this is really where I 252 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: see myself. So what I have people do is say 253 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: what do I feel? And write it down before you 254 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: get into that second phase of the negotiation with someone else. 255 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: Because when you write feelings down, two things happen. Number One, 256 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: sometimes you're going to write stuff and it's going to 257 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: lose its power over you. You talked about that anxiety 258 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: and fear. I remember once going in to negotiate something 259 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: and before I did, I wrote down how I was 260 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: feeling and yes, okay, vulnerability alert, I'm a negotiation expert. 261 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: And I wrote down, I'm scared they're going to laugh 262 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: me out of the room. That's what I wrote down. 263 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: And then I looked at that and I thought, Alex, 264 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: how likely is it, in fact that you're going to 265 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: state that number and everyone in the room is going 266 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:57,239 Speaker 1: to break into hysterical laughters. That's probably very unlikely. So 267 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: social work research tells us that if we write down 268 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: our feelings, they tend to sort of dissipate. We feel 269 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: more control when we're in the room. But the second 270 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: thing we realize is feelings are data. They can tell 271 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: us what path we want to take. I was counseling 272 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: a man once who needed to have a difficult conversation 273 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: with a subordinate in the workplace about a policy that 274 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: that person had apparently violated, and when he wrote down 275 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: his feelings, he was like, I'm scared to mess up 276 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: this relationship. I'm a little annoyed that this person put 277 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: me in this place in the first place, and I'm 278 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: actually ambivalent about whether this policy is the right one 279 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: in the first place. Bingo. So then he knew he 280 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: had two tracks to pursue. He needed to talk to 281 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: this person and also needed to get together with the 282 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: management committee to say is this really the right possibility? 283 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: Feelings are data and you can use them to your advantage. 284 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: Speaking of data, I feel like stats show that if 285 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: people want the max pay increase, that they should apply elsewhere. 286 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: Right that we find that job switchers make more than 287 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: people who stay at a job. Do you think that 288 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: part of that is a fear of confrontation, That's what 289 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: That's what's keeping folks from negotiating rays and just applying 290 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: down the street and moving on going elsewhere. Is that 291 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: what's happening or something there's something else at play, you know. 292 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: I actually don't think the quote unquote fault in that 293 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: situation is on the individual. Sometimes it might be a 294 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: fear of confrontation, but more often, here's what I see. 295 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: I see two things. One scenario is you've grown up 296 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: at that company. You've been there maybe since you graduated 297 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: college or graduate school. You're ten years in and in 298 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: your boss's minds, you are still that fresh person right 299 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: out of school. Can I say that has happened to me? 300 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: Like my one job, I was literally there for fifteen years. 301 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: I interned there and literally fifteen years in they were 302 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: still calling me intern and just so that's like a joking, 303 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: like a lovely sort of thing, and it's funny, but 304 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: it's also like, is that still how you see me? 305 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: So there's some truth, it's it's kind of funny, but 306 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: it's also just a little odd. You're like, I'm grown 307 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: up now too. Though maybe you see the power in 308 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: labels when you're able to step step back, and you know, 309 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: talking with Alex here, I think she's maybe highlighting the 310 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: fact that that really does have a significant impact not 311 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: just on the way we feel, but maybe how others 312 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: treatise as well. Oh it does. I mean people tell 313 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: me all the time that they get pushed back when 314 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: they negotiate for titles, and I tell them go in 315 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: there and say, titles are signals, and there's a signal 316 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: we could be sending here that's going to benefit all 317 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: of us in the market, right, and let's do that 318 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: an in turn. Not a powerful title. Not a powerful thing. 319 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you. In that case, I'd be like, 320 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: ha ha ha. Actually I'm your boss. So there's that. 321 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: So the first is you've kind of grown up there. 322 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 1: The second thing that I see is that management is 323 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: in kick the can down the road mode or cost 324 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: saving mode, and they think, well, it's an unofficial policy, 325 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: but basically, if you want to make more, you got 326 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: to go elsewhere. And I have heard I can't tell 327 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: you how many people saying to me offline that my 328 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: manager was like, I'm really sorry, you got to generate 329 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: another offer. And it's really risky for companies. I say 330 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: this all the time. It's basically like telling your partner, 331 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, i'd like to have an open relationship, so 332 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: feel free to go out right and if there's anybody 333 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: else you'd like to date. Sounds good. You know. The 334 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: risk is then that the person finds an offer from 335 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: somebody who right off the bat says I see your 336 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: worth and I honor that and a lot of times 337 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: then that builds resentment, and so you're not going to 338 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: be able to keep that person even if you match, 339 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: because you didn't do it when you could. This is 340 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: all great, Alex. These are some of these internals, some 341 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: of these mirror questions that we need to ask ourselves, 342 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: maybe really before we even start having a conversation with 343 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: a supervisor or a boss. But right after the break, 344 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: we're actually going to dive into a bunch of different 345 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: questions that we can be asking when it comes to 346 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: seeking out that higher income. We'll get to all of 347 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: those right after this. All right, we're back from the break. 348 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: We're still talking about getting paid what you're worth with 349 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: Alex Carter, and we talked about a lot of that 350 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: internal work, which is which is so interesting, Like I 351 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: haven't really thought about that much from the negotiation standpoint 352 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: so much. You think of it as external between the 353 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: secondary party. But I feel like, Alex, you said shed 354 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: so much light on what it takes to get kind 355 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: of prepared for that, which is a meaningful part of 356 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: the process, like tilling the soil before you actually go 357 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: and plant the seeds, for sure. And so, Alex, you 358 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: say that the first step is to invite the other 359 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: person to share how they think things are going, how 360 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: well they believe you're performing. Why is that important? W 361 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: We're now starting to kind of approach negotiation negotiations with 362 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: the other party. Yeah, Well, what I would say about 363 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: that is that we want to start broad. So one 364 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: way you could do it would be to say, you 365 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: talk to me about how things are going. But there 366 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: are other ways that you might open up the conversation 367 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: in a broad way. For example, I'm counseling somebody who's 368 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: trying to go in for a promotion, and she goes 369 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: in to say, tell me all about the process, right, 370 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: So getting a lot of information so that you can 371 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: then figure out what you're pitching to. Right. So I 372 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: imagine when I tell people you want to go in 373 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: and go broad, this is what I called the window. Right. 374 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 1: We start in the mirror. We're starting with ourselves, and 375 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: now we're looking to open up a window between us 376 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: and somebody else to really be able to once again 377 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: take that broad view, understand as much as possible about them, 378 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: about the situation, about process and substance, so that we 379 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: can negotiate the best possible offer. And if you want 380 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: to know how to start broad you need to ask 381 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: an open question. You know research. There was a fantastic 382 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: study done by professor Lee Thompson out of Northwestern that 383 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: found that only seven percent of people in this setup 384 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: negotiated the most money. And those people were the ones 385 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: who came in and asked questions first. But not just 386 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: any questions. They asked what she called diagnostic questions or 387 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: open questions. And here's how you do it. Open questions 388 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: start with three different words or phrases. What are your needs? 389 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: What can I do to help you make the case 390 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: for my raise that type of thing? Or how you know? 391 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: How can we achieve this together so that I can 392 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: continue to outperform for your department? What how? Or my favorite, 393 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: what I call the two magic words that you should 394 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,479 Speaker 1: use to start every conversation. Tell me, tell me your 395 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: views on my performance this year. Tell me the company's 396 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: biggest goals for the next year. Tell me what role, 397 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: optimally I would play in supporting you to reach those goals. 398 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: Tell me about the last person you were able to 399 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: achieve a raise for and how they made the case 400 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: for you. Tell me is the most powerful way you 401 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: can start any compensation related conversation. And here's the secret. 402 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: It's not totally a question. It's actually a command. It 403 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: means that you're not going to get or yes or 404 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: no answer. You're basically compelling them to give you as 405 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: much information as possible, and information is power. That's how 406 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: you negotiate. You're basically saying, hey, spill your guts, yeah, 407 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: in a really kind way so that they're like, okay, sure, Yeah. 408 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: It's interesting. I had a gentleman early on in my 409 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: career say to me, you know, Alex, tell me isn't 410 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: really a business question though. It's kind of a therapist question. 411 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: And I said, fine, who knows more about your your 412 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: colleagues or your therapist. Yeah, it gives you so true, 413 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: the absolute most. And then once you ask that question, 414 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: you got to do what I call landing the plane. 415 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: Don't talk over yourself, don't fill the silence, sit back 416 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: and let that person answer your question. Yeah. I mean, 417 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: so that's one of the tips that you mentioned in 418 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: your book as well. So in this process of identifying 419 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: an opportunity essentially a right, like, that's what you're doing 420 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: by asking these questions, the how the tell me? But 421 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: you talk about enjoying the silence even and it can 422 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: be difficult in particular folks like us. You just like 423 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: to talk to fill the void. But you talk about 424 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: how it's so important to put those questions out there 425 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: and just let them hang and just continue to Essentially 426 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: you're going to get even more information from that individual. 427 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: And there's an optimal amount too, right. Oh yeah, you 428 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: read the book, So how much silence do you need 429 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: to really get what's called a high value move from 430 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: the other side? I just did it. Yeah, three and 431 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: a half seconds, that's what I'm talking about. And a 432 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: half seconds, baby, that's what If they were listening on 433 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: double sped up, it's one point seventy five yea, oh man, 434 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: I was born in Brooklyn, So if you're listening to 435 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: me on one and a half, I feel bad for 436 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: you right now. But I'll tell you sometimes you do 437 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: that and that alone gets you the offer. I was 438 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: counseling a woman in her thirties, young president of a company. Right, 439 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: so she rises quickly to the top of leadership. And 440 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: she's an outgoing person. She's normally a talker like me. 441 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: So she's sitting there with the board talking about compensation 442 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: and she says, here's what I'm worth. What do we 443 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: need to do to make the happened? And they say, 444 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: oh gosh, you know, we're not sure we can do that, 445 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: and she just sits and do you know, after a 446 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 1: few seconds, they looked at each other nervously and said, 447 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: all right, let's make it happen. Right, So, for your 448 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: introverted listeners here, introversion can be a superpower. Use your 449 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: comfort with silence to your advantage. And if you're like 450 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: me and you're born in Brooklyn and you'll love to talk, 451 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: it's like going to the gym, it gets easier every time. 452 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: All right, that's great. I love this stuff. So how 453 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: important is data when you enter into negotiations? Is do 454 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: we need how much external like salary sort of data? 455 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: Do we need to know kind of what people in 456 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: the market in similar positions are getting paid, or what 457 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: about like personal accomplishment numbers or metrics too? How much 458 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: of that do we need to kind of bring to 459 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: the table when we're talking with somebody about getting paid more. Yes, Well, 460 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: there's two components to this. One is data and then 461 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: it's framing. That was implicit in what you said. Data 462 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: are very important. Research shows that if you're going to 463 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: make an ask and you want to do the best 464 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: possible when you're making that ask, your ask needs to 465 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: be three things. It needs to be specific, so really concrete. 466 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: It needs to be justifiable, so you need to figure 467 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: out for everything you know, there's usually not one number, 468 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: it's a range, and so specific, justifiable, and then optimistic. 469 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: The way I like to frame this for people is 470 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: I want you to ask for the biggest number or 471 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: the biggest package that you can credibly stand behind. If 472 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: there's a range, you're going to ask for the top 473 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: of the range. And then it comes to framing. And 474 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: that's sort of what you were getting at when talking 475 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: about personal accomplishments. There are so many different ways that 476 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: you can frame things up. I was working with a 477 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: guy who was negotiating to run a venture cap situation 478 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: for a larger company and they offered him a certain 479 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: amount of money and he said, well, this is actually 480 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: what they offered me is middle of the market for 481 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: my accomplishments, and what I'm doing in this role. And 482 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: I said, you are you just going to be a 483 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: venture cat partner or are you running the thing? And 484 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: he thought he was like, actually on running it? And 485 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: I said, okay, So then let's talk about how to 486 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: frame that up and what's the range to head a 487 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: venture cap fund. That one question netted him one hundred 488 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: grand more. So a lot of this is about get 489 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: your data, and online is just the beginning. Right you 490 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: can look at indeed, you can look at Payscale, Glassdoor, 491 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: lots of different websites, but ultimately for you listening out there, 492 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: you want to tap your human intelligence, your network. And 493 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: this is where I always say, especially to women, let's 494 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: get comfortable talking about money. I love when people ask 495 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: me how much did you get for that? Or what 496 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: are you making? Because that's how we all rise. So 497 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: that's your data, and then you're going to frame it 498 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: up in the most optimistic way to get yourself toward 499 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: the top of that range. Well, so as we're seeking 500 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: out those those pieces of data, essentially we're talking about 501 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: expanding that network, Like do you have any tips for 502 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: building that out? Like how can we find others within 503 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: an industry or within our space? To see what it 504 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: is that they're getting paid. Yeah, my number one tip 505 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: is to be generous and be the person that is 506 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: supporting other people, because if you are out there using 507 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: what you have, connecting people, referring people, really getting to 508 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: know people, you know, sometimes networking can seem so transactional. 509 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: And I like to say, I just have a group 510 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: of great friends that I also do business with. And 511 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: it's not just about what position they're in. I know 512 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: when they're doing an IVF cycle, I know when their 513 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: kid is graduating elementary school. You know, I know that 514 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: they knit in their spare time. It's really having deep 515 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: relationships with the people that you resonate with, so that 516 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: then you have that basis of trust to be able 517 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 1: to ask people about money. But I also like to 518 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: find people that I have stuff in common with. Where'd 519 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: you go to college, where did you go to graduate school? 520 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: Where are you from? It could be an ethnic community, 521 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: a religious community, folks who share some of the same 522 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: beliefs you do. You know a lot of folks now 523 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: really we desire to be in community. And what I 524 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: would say is find the people you resonate with, because 525 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: those are going to be the people that you relate 526 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: to more and ultimately you're able to tap better for 527 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: this kind of mutual exchange. Yeah, people are more willing 528 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: to share information with you, even something that seemingly as 529 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: private as salary information, if you feel like you know 530 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: each other and you have more common ground. I'm curious, Alex, 531 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: how do you feel about the pay transparency laws that 532 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: we've seen springing up over the past couple of years 533 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: in different different states, Like how did those impact are 534 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: ability to negotiate and would you say that these have 535 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: helped workers or hurt them overall? Yeah, I think salary 536 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: transparency is going to be a market advantage for the 537 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: companies that implement it. So we've been seeing these, you know, 538 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: laws around this piece meal around the country, you know, 539 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: in Colorado, California, New York City, and I think, you know, 540 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: what I've learned through counseling, you know, thousands of people, 541 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: but also looking at the research is that workers, and 542 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: especially your women and underrepresented workers really worry that they're 543 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: being underpaid, and often they are. I'll speak here, especially 544 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: to the women who are listening here, how many times 545 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: have you been asked, you know, in a job negotiation. Well, Alex, 546 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: what did you make in your last job. So in 547 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: some places it's illegal now to ask that question, but 548 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: it's also irrelevant. I'm not here to interview for my 549 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: last job. I feel like insidious, But people respond and 550 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: they tell, and then that's a huge teal in the 551 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: negotiation process. Yes, you know, And I have some children 552 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: in my life who are obsessed with in Kanto, and 553 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: I always say, we don't talk about Bruno. Somebody wants 554 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: to know what I made before. I'm here to redirect 555 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: and say, you know, actually, each company values roles differently, 556 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: and this role is really different, as is the company. 557 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: So I'd like to talk about how you're valuing the role, 558 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: and then at when we flesh that out, I'm more 559 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: than happy to have a conversation around compensation for this 560 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: role period. So I think salary transparency is something that's 561 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: really going to help a lot of workers, and it's 562 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: going to help companies too, because when people know they're 563 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: being paid fairly, guess what, they work harder, They feel 564 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: more connected to the mission, and they are more likely 565 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: to stay. And for companies, attrition is so expensive for 566 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: a mid range manager, you know, if the person's making 567 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, It could cost companies 568 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: upwards of fifty right or even close to seventy five 569 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: to really replace that person and train and get their 570 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: successor up to speed. So I'm a big fan of 571 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: pay transparency, and I hope that we're going to see 572 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: more of that across the country. So what if there 573 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: isn't transparency when it comes to pay. What if someone's 574 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: out there and they're applying for a job where there 575 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: is no pay range provided at all. How to folks 576 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: essentially address like the elephant in the room, which is 577 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: basically that you've got no idea how much the job 578 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: is actually going to compensate. Yeah, this is a great 579 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: question because people often ask me, Alex, should I go first, 580 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: should I throw out a number, or should I wait 581 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: for them to do it? And the answer is, it depends. 582 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: That's how you know. I'm a lawyer, by the way, guys, 583 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: you know if I say to you it depends. That's 584 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: what we spend all those hundreds of thousands of dollars 585 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: in law school to learn how to say. So here's 586 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: the thing. Oftentimes, and we've all heard the stories, several 587 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: of them went viral last year where somebody goes in 588 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: and they say, I'd like to be paid seventy five 589 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: thousand dollars and actually the company had a range from 590 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: seventy five to one twenty five, and they think, okay, great, 591 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: you know, we'll get this person for seventy five, and 592 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: then subsequently the person figures out that they were hugely 593 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: undervalued and they leave. My advice is, if you have 594 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: rock solid intelligence, like you've got people within that company 595 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: and in the industry who can tell you for sure, 596 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: here's the range, here's where you can aim. Here are 597 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: all the different levers you can pull right, all of 598 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: those drivers that you could put in to create a 599 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: fulsome and creative deal for both sides. If you've got that, 600 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: by all means, I think go in and let them know. 601 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: If you don't, I would let the company go first, 602 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: so that you prevent yourself from undercutting or under selling 603 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 1: yourself on the compensation. And then if they come back 604 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: and say here it is. First of all, do not 605 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: accept on the spot. Okay, I hope I don't have 606 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: to say that more than once, but do not accept 607 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: on the spot. Even if they say, well, we'd really 608 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: like an answer, you should take some time to think 609 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: about this and gather your data. If it's not enough, 610 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: then you gather as much intelligence as you can and 611 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: aim higher and say this role and the responsibilities when 612 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: you put them together with my experience, that number is blank, 613 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: and shoot higher. Okay, Yeah, it sounds like walking away 614 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 1: for a little bit. It's almost like an extended silence 615 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: that might help work in your favor. And I guess too. 616 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: Briefly at the beginning, we talked about benefits and how 617 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: you might ask for vacation time instead of additional pay, 618 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: and how that might lead to just a an accepted 619 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: negotiation from both parties. And so maybe you're sometimes you're 620 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: negotiating for the wrong thing, just that higher salary number one, 621 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: maybe that's not even what you mostly mostly want. But 622 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: how important is it to negotiate other benefits aside from 623 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: salary And what sort of things do you see people 624 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: negotiating for and how often are potential employers like willing 625 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: to negotiate on some of those secondary fronts. Absolutely, so 626 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: it's critically important, you know, when you think about flexibility 627 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: or vacation, you know, oftentimes I'm working with people or 628 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: hearing of people who are negotiating jobs that are in 629 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: different cities, and so thinking about, then, how often do 630 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: you want to be out there with your team. You know, 631 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: it could be asking for a travel budget so that 632 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: you could be out and meeting with your team in 633 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: person X number of times a year. It could also be, 634 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, around vacation. But I like to put things 635 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: into buckets and to say to people, you want to 636 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: negotiate more than money. So what are the things that 637 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: you should negotiate for besides the compensation? And I'll give 638 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: you several of those buckets. I want you to be 639 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: thinking about not just where you are today as you 640 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: start that job, but where you are a year from now, 641 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: when you have your first performance review and maybe your 642 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: first bonus or a chance at a raise, and so 643 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: you're going to work backward from there. You're going to 644 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: think about, what are the performance indicators that I'm going 645 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: to need to meet and what are the things that 646 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: I need to negotiate for today so that I'm going 647 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: to be able to knock it out of the park 648 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: a year from now. And those things could be access 649 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: to information, to people, to the rooms you're going to 650 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: need to be effective in that job. This is why 651 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: it's so important to ask those broad questions about the 652 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: role and the company, because then you're going to get 653 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: a sense book. Okay, so I hear the management committee 654 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: meets once a month. You know, in order to be 655 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: able to do what you need me to do, I'm 656 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: going to need access to that meeting, right, So that's one. 657 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: The second thing I talk about is boundaries and work 658 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: life balance can be part of this. So thinking about 659 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: what's sustainable for you, your family, whatever that might look 660 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: like for you at this stage of your life, and 661 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: thinking about how do I negotiate for that. I know 662 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: a dynamic young woman, she's interviewing for a chief sales 663 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: officer position and she needs to be doing homework with 664 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,439 Speaker 1: her kids from three to four every day, So that 665 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: was part of the negotiation process. They know her. She's 666 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: a killer, she slays in the market, and so this 667 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: was absolutely a thing that they gave to her. She's 668 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: got a blackout period for that time works for her 669 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: and her family. The last thing I would say that 670 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: people could negotiate for, and this goes back to what 671 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: I said at the very beginning of the episode, is support. 672 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: What are the networks you need to be a part 673 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: of what conferences do you need to sponsor, to be 674 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: sponsored for so that you can be visible, What if 675 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,280 Speaker 1: any training do you need? How about headcount, marketing budget? 676 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: All of that can and should be negotiated up front 677 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: because that's how you're going to be successful, and you 678 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: frame it as this is how we win together. And guys, 679 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you right now, I have to say 680 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: one more thing about negotiating severance. If you can negotiate 681 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: your severance upfront, increasingly I hear about people doing this, 682 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: it is to your advantage. Hypothetical dollars are easier to 683 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 1: give than actual dollars after the fact, and so you 684 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: can treat this kind of like a prenup right, we're 685 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: getting married. I have high hopes. I'm super excited for 686 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: this job. I want to be here a long time. 687 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: And as you know now in the market, it's standard 688 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: to be talking about severance upfront, and so let's have 689 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,359 Speaker 1: that conversation, all right, So you can basically negotiate a 690 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: better parting package, better severance package on the way out 691 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: the door. If you do it at the beginning, then 692 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: if you wait until you're getting let go. Absolutely very cool. 693 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: All right, We've got a couple more questions to get 694 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: you with you, Alex, including like, we live in a 695 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 1: new world of work from home, how does that impact 696 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: our ability to negotiate. We'll talk about that in a 697 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: couple more things right after this. All right, we are 698 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: back from the break talking with Alex Carter to ensure 699 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: that you're getting paid what you are worth, and Alex 700 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: just you know, right before the break, Joel mentioned working 701 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: from home. It's something that we have seen changed dramatically 702 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: over the past few years. But how do you think 703 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: that working from home has impacted our ability to showcase 704 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: our accomplishments? Right, we talked about framing the right data 705 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: to our supervisors and bosses to make sure that they 706 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: know what it is that we're accomplishing. It's kind of 707 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: difficult to do that when we aren't working in person, 708 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: and so a I would love for you to talk 709 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: about that. But then also, should negotiation tactics should they 710 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: change if we are almost never in the office interacting 711 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: with our coworkers and interacting with our bosses. Really interesting? Well, 712 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,399 Speaker 1: I think the virtual or hybrid world we're in gives 713 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: us a lot of options for how we negotiate and 714 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: a lot of modalities in addition to in person, we 715 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: can be meeting on video call, we can do a 716 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: phone call, we can do email, or god forbid, we 717 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: can do text. Just kidding, don't do that, Okay. If 718 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: you want to either blow up your work life or 719 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,919 Speaker 1: get divorced, try having an intense conversation over text. Yeah, 720 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: for Twitter, it's bad medium. Yeah yeah, I think there's 721 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: If there's anything worse for negotiating than text, it's probably Twitter. 722 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: Although I have seen a couple of success stories that 723 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: I won't talk about with Twitter employees actually negotiating with 724 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: the CBEO live. But here's what I would say. Has 725 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: it changed the game? It has? And here once again 726 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: I want to speak directly to those of your audience 727 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: who might be underrepresented in the workplace, women and people 728 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: of color in particular, and say that the virtual world 729 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: tends to be a little harder. So to the extent 730 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: you needed to fight for airtime to share your accomplishments 731 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: or share your ideas in person, it becomes even more 732 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: difficult online. And so to those who are listening, who 733 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: are leaders of companies and managers, this is something that 734 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,240 Speaker 1: you can correct from the top. You can be setting 735 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: the tone, setting time for one to ones, really checking 736 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 1: in with your team members and making sure that you're 737 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: aware of what they're doing. But if you're listening to 738 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: this and you're not in that position, you're managing up, 739 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: then I have some tips for you. Okay. Number one, 740 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: if you're looking to make your voice heard, or share 741 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: your wins or share your ideas, right, because both are 742 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: important for compensation, then you need to do what I 743 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: call the meet before the meeting, even if it's a 744 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: zoom call, get on a few minutes early because a 745 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: lot of times compensation decisions turn on what we call 746 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: the power of the informal. It's not what's shared during 747 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: the actual meeting, it's that few minutes of informal chat 748 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: with your manager or a decision maker before it starts, 749 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: to be able to say, hey, Bob, actually thanks for 750 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: your support. The client just sent a tremendous thank you 751 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: note to me saying that the project was incredibly successful. Right, 752 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: being able to share that before the meeting itself. Or 753 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: I have an idea when in the meeting would be 754 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: good for me to share it? Not may I not? 755 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: Can I? But when so? Negotiating some of that time 756 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: and space for yourself the other thing I would do 757 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: would be pass on your positive feedback or your wins 758 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: as you get them. You also want to keep a folder. 759 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes we're so busy, you know, kicking butt 760 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: out there in the workplace, that we forget about it 761 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: and we forget to document it. So when something good happens, 762 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: I want you to do two things. One, put it 763 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: in your folder or keep a list of your accomplishments. 764 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: And number two, forward it to somebody who's senior to you, 765 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: perhaps who supported you in doing this, and saying thanks 766 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: again for your support or the resources. I wanted to 767 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,399 Speaker 1: pass along this incredible feedback we just got so that 768 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: you are staying top of mind. You know. Last thing 769 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: I would say is if you're trying to get that 770 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: raise or promotion, and that's why we're talking here today, 771 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 1: that is not something you preview for the first time 772 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: at that performance review. I want you to treat this 773 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: like a political campaign that you are running year round. 774 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: You're going to be talking to your allies and advocates. 775 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: You're going to be sharing your wins. Maybe you're going 776 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: to set up a pre meeting with your boss to 777 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: ask some of those big questions and say you know 778 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: my job has really changed. I've taken on more responsibility. 779 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: Tell me what it would take and how we can 780 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: work together to get me to a title and a 781 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: compensation level that reflects what I'm doing now. So before 782 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: the money gets allocated, which often has happened by the 783 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: time you have the performance review, you are laying that groundwork. 784 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: You know, set the date for your performance review, but 785 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: do not wait to set the stage. I feel like 786 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: so much of what you're saying, like the way you 787 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: phrase it matters because they're in so many these things. 788 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: Because you're talking about specific words or specific phrases, but 789 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: also some of these specific things that you want us 790 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: to communicate to a superior it could come across as 791 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: bragging if we do it improperly. Right, So, how important 792 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: is it to use the right language and to use 793 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: the right methodology when we're communicating back and forth. Well, unfortunately, 794 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: research shows that it's more important for some of us 795 00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: than others, and namely women and people of color. We 796 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: tend to get more pushback when we are talking about 797 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: our accomplishments or asking for money, depending on the person 798 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: who's receiving that information, and also culturally, you pull from 799 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: an international audience, and there are some places around the 800 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: world where people say to me they did just this 801 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: morning in a keynote I was giving you know what, 802 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: if it's maybe not acceptable for me to be quote 803 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: unquote bragging about my expertise and my accomplishments, and here's 804 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 1: what I would say. There's kind of a formula you 805 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 1: can use for this. It's called the IEW. I'm incredibly 806 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: proud to have led this team or achieved this, and 807 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: I want to shout out everybody who contributed to this. 808 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: It's accurate you led the team, and it's also collaborative 809 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: because you're lifting up other people. And if you're really 810 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: worried about you know, you're managing up. So you're talking 811 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: to a superior and you need to talk about what 812 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: you've achieved. What you could do is go in and 813 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: thank them first, do the WII and say, you know 814 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: this has been If this is true, this has been 815 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: a great environment for me. You have been so supportive 816 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,319 Speaker 1: throughout and that support is a major reason that I'm 817 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,760 Speaker 1: coming to you with several wins that I feel incredibly 818 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 1: proud of this year. Right, it is gracious, it's collaborated, 819 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: and it's also accurate. We don't want the eye to 820 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: get lost in the Wii and say, oh, well it 821 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: was a team effort. Maybe it was, but if you 822 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: led the team, you need to say that these have 823 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: been some amazing like tactical tips. This is some great advice. 824 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: Let's maybe end on a note of encouragement for folks, 825 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: because you've done negotiation work for some like pretty impressive ventities, 826 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: and you've undoubtedly helped many individuals lives. I hear you 827 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: drawing on some different examples as we've talked today, But 828 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: what have you seen some folks ask for and actually 829 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: get that Some of our listeners out there might find 830 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: surprise that they may have thought was not an option 831 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: that was on the table for them, but that they 832 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: were able to get. You mentioned that one like that 833 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,760 Speaker 1: blackout hour for that one mother who was doing homework. 834 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,839 Speaker 1: I freaking love that. I think the ability to set 835 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: that boundary like that's something that she clearly wanted. That 836 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: was one that really stood out to me. But did 837 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,280 Speaker 1: you have any maybe some other examples like that? Yeah, 838 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: so a blackout hour, the person who negotiated the travel 839 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 1: package for her husband. I have lots of success stories, 840 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, I want to tell you one of my own. Also, 841 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 1: when I was first getting started as a speaker. Again 842 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, transparency alert, I negotiate my fee and pretty 843 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: quickly I max them out, and I believe them when 844 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: they say, you know, we saved this for last. We 845 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: didn't realize what speakers cost. We just don't have the budget. 846 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: And I said, okay, tell me more about your event, 847 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 1: and so they described it to me and I said, okay, 848 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 1: so I'm going to do it for the money you mentioned. Plus, 849 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: here are the other things I would like you mentioned. 850 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 1: You've got a professional photographer working this event. I'd love 851 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: to get high res photos of me on your stage 852 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: with your company logo in the background that I can 853 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: use for my portfolio and for my speaker kit. And secondly, 854 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: if I blow the doors off it, as I'm planning 855 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 1: to do, I'd love to have the names of two 856 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: or three managing director level people whom you would have 857 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,399 Speaker 1: as references for me to call other contacts in the 858 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: industry and recommend me as a speaker. I ended up 859 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: getting both of those things, and I went on to 860 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: make over the next couple of years thirty to forty 861 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: times what I made in that one event, just from 862 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: negotiating some additional creative stuff. So that's for the entrepreneurs 863 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 1: out there, right. But thinking about it, I've had people 864 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: negotiate for remote work. I've had them negotiate for and 865 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: enhanced healthcare package. I've had them negotiate for childcare if 866 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 1: that was offered at work. For people who are returning 867 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: to the workforce after a break, they've negotiated for skills 868 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,800 Speaker 1: training or going to conferences, or maybe for the women 869 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,720 Speaker 1: out there belonging to one of the women's networking clubs 870 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,360 Speaker 1: out there, like the Crew or Chief or the List, 871 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: places where you can get equipped and supported as a leader. Truly, 872 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: there are so many different things out there, But I 873 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: guess I want to tell you also that you can 874 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: do this in a way that you're going to get 875 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 1: stuff you didn't expect. I was working with a gentleman 876 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,880 Speaker 1: who talk about growing up. He grew up at this company. 877 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 1: He was at this point where he was a young 878 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: C suite leader running a major division, and his friend 879 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: was the CEO. And he came to me and said, 880 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 1: I'm tremendously resentful, but I can't negotiate. It's my friend. 881 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,480 Speaker 1: And I said you can, and we're going to talk 882 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,920 Speaker 1: about how to do it, and we did it his way. 883 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,080 Speaker 1: We did it collaboratively, we did it with a lot 884 00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: of questions. Not only did this gentleman get fifty percent 885 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: more tacked onto his base and a substantial bonus, but 886 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,880 Speaker 1: the CEO called him two months later and said, you know, 887 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: I'm really impressed with how you did that, and I 888 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: want you to know that I'm thinking of you someday 889 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: for when I retire. Wow, that is the kind of 890 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,440 Speaker 1: unexpected boon you can get by negotiating. You can do 891 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,759 Speaker 1: well monetarily and also show people you're a leader and 892 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: really preserve and enhance those relationships. Alex this has been great, 893 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: just a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. 894 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: Where can our listeners find out more about you and 895 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,359 Speaker 1: find out more about your book? Absolutely well. I'm on 896 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: most social media platforms at Alexandra B. Carter. I am 897 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,399 Speaker 1: also at alex Carter asks dot com, where you can 898 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,320 Speaker 1: find information on ask for more the book and also 899 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,880 Speaker 1: about the speaking and training I do. And I would 900 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: love to hear of any success stories or what you 901 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: took from this podcast. It's really enjoyed, you know, I 902 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 1: see myself as a coach first and foremost, and so 903 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,000 Speaker 1: I'd love to know as your negotiation coach what worked 904 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,760 Speaker 1: for you and what you go on to achieve. Alex, 905 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,439 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to speak 906 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,000 Speaker 1: with us today. Thanks so much. I really enjoyed it. 907 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,319 Speaker 1: So where do we even begin, Joel? After after that conversation, 908 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: I feel like everything that Alex mentioned was goal. Yeah, 909 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,319 Speaker 1: one of the best guests ever. I don't know how 910 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna be able to identify one big takeaway, like yeah, 911 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,640 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, so on that note, what was your 912 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 1: what was your big takeaway? One thing that you have 913 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: to identify that was the most important. You set me 914 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:39,879 Speaker 1: up for failure first here I go. I will say, 915 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,399 Speaker 1: I think I'll fail next, don't worry at the very beginning. Again, yeah, 916 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,600 Speaker 1: so much good information from Alex here, But I think 917 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,279 Speaker 1: at the very beginning when she said that if you 918 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: don't negotiate, you're basically setting yourself up for seven more 919 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 1: years of work and a real problem. Yeah, you and 920 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: I we talked about the compounding returns that you can 921 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,359 Speaker 1: get by investing in the stock market, and it's true 922 00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,120 Speaker 1: right that you're money is going to be working for 923 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 1: you after a decade plus, it's gonna have a massive 924 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,040 Speaker 1: impact on your ability to retire. But the same thing 925 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,040 Speaker 1: is true when you negotiate the earlier that you can 926 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,359 Speaker 1: up your salary, you're gonna have compounding returns as your 927 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,879 Speaker 1: salary increases. Even if you're just once you get into 928 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,400 Speaker 1: that new position, getting that three percent annual raise or 929 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,640 Speaker 1: something like that, Well, if you negotiated more at the beginning, 930 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: it cascades into quite a bit more over the years, 931 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,919 Speaker 1: in the decades. And so I think that's a really 932 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,640 Speaker 1: good point that when we think about compounding returns, we 933 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:29,759 Speaker 1: also have to think about how much more we're going 934 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 1: to earn over our lifetime and how much more financial 935 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,960 Speaker 1: independence it's going to convey to us if we're more 936 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: serious about negotiating totally. Yeah, it's going to have a 937 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 1: massive impact on the financials. But my big takeaway, I'll 938 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,279 Speaker 1: shift from the money to the intangibles, because that's one 939 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,560 Speaker 1: of the things she talked about when it comes to 940 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 1: what it is that you're negotiating for. Right she mentioned 941 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,279 Speaker 1: how you can negotiate for the tangibles, and that's kind 942 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,440 Speaker 1: of what you touched on. Right, So your salary, maybe 943 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,560 Speaker 1: it's equity or a title that you have within that company. 944 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,440 Speaker 1: But you can also negotiate for lifestyle the intangibles, and 945 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 1: she mentioned whether it be values or just the freedom 946 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 1: that you have, maybe the independence that you have to 947 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: perform your job within a certain set of parameters that 948 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,360 Speaker 1: the company's outline for you, or maybe it's just respect, 949 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, like the ability to go to a company 950 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: where it feels like that they respect your opinion, your time, 951 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: how it is that you might want to tackle and 952 00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,439 Speaker 1: approach a problem. It's not just about money. And even 953 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,080 Speaker 1: though here on the show that's you know, five percent 954 00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,400 Speaker 1: of what we talk about at least has to do 955 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,480 Speaker 1: with money, there's that is not the goal in and 956 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: of itself. It's to be able to create, into shape 957 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,399 Speaker 1: and design a life that you're excited to lead. And 958 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:39,840 Speaker 1: I think one of the ways you do that is 959 00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 1: by negotiating lifestyle those intangibles. So that was fantastic. It's 960 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: always good to be reminded of that as the how 961 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,640 Speaker 1: to money guys, because we're here to talk about money, 962 00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,719 Speaker 1: but it's just so important to be reminded that it's 963 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,279 Speaker 1: not only about money, it's about what that money can 964 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,080 Speaker 1: do for you. Well, and I think what she was 965 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,600 Speaker 1: saying too, and I think it's more true in today's 966 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,360 Speaker 1: society and in today's work environment than ever is that 967 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 1: some of those intangibles are actually easier to negotiate four 968 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,960 Speaker 1: than it is just pure competition increases and I think 969 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: for a lot of people it's more meaningful than just 970 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,040 Speaker 1: making more money. That you and I would say the 971 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:12,840 Speaker 1: same thing. It's like if we if we had to 972 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:14,920 Speaker 1: work ten extra hours a week for an extra five 973 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,760 Speaker 1: hundred year, would we do it? Like, probably not, because 974 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 1: those intangibles mean a lot to us too, right, five 975 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: is a lot though, that is a lot of money. 976 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 1: There's a lot of money, is like fifty K would like, 977 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,400 Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, all right maybe, but yeah, you all 978 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: those trade offs matter, right, and and so a mill 979 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 1: over there just like light it on fire, all right, 980 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: But those intangibles are crucial and you're going to you're 981 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,560 Speaker 1: often going to make more progress when you're negotiating for 982 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,919 Speaker 1: those than you are for just pure competition. But making 983 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:44,839 Speaker 1: more money is good too. Yeah that's right. But man, 984 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,040 Speaker 1: one of fantastic guests. So glad we're able to get 985 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 1: Alex on the show today. Let's quickly mentioned the beer 986 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,440 Speaker 1: that you and I enjoyed during this episode. This is Digits, 987 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,480 Speaker 1: which is by Burnt Hickory Brewery, And I'll mention we've 988 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,919 Speaker 1: never had a Burnt Hickory beer here on the show, 989 00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: which are not not too far from where we are 990 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: no back in the day, so like I don't know, 991 00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,439 Speaker 1: maybe close to a decade ago, like as craft beer 992 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: was coming on the scene, this particular beer was something 993 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,200 Speaker 1: that we would we would drive, would we go drive 994 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,520 Speaker 1: around looking for it. I still remember I knew a 995 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,799 Speaker 1: guy who worked at a package store and he would 996 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,440 Speaker 1: set aside a case for me because that's how much 997 00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,640 Speaker 1: I like. Yeah, so it was it was an in 998 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,800 Speaker 1: demand beer. But then obviously as more brewers come online 999 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,120 Speaker 1: and they start making amazing beers, you kind of forget 1000 00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 1: about your first loves. But this was one of the 1001 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 1: one of the og IPAs that we were on the 1002 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,040 Speaker 1: hunt for, and I'm glad that you and I were 1003 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: able to enjoy this one today. What are your thoughts 1004 00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,319 Speaker 1: all right? So it held up in a lot of ways. 1005 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:37,960 Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, it's funny. This is an ipa made 1006 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,000 Speaker 1: with blood oranges, and that's why I always loved it. 1007 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: I like blood orange or for some reason, at least 1008 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: in this recipe, like for this Iba is so good 1009 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,680 Speaker 1: and it's funny. I probably haven't had this beer in years, 1010 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,080 Speaker 1: but it still takes me back to those days where 1011 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,560 Speaker 1: I was early on craft beer, fish gunado drinking it 1012 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: and it's as delicious as ever. Yeah, it's fantastic out. 1013 00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,640 Speaker 1: So the tasting notes on here, blood orange obviously, citrus 1014 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,480 Speaker 1: orange peel, so it's kind of got some of that, 1015 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: like that oil that you get from the from the 1016 00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,600 Speaker 1: skin of the lunch peel, pine and tropical fruit which 1017 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,759 Speaker 1: is certainly a little more of a West Coast style IPA. 1018 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,560 Speaker 1: It's not overly reside and bitter, but pretty clean drinking, right. 1019 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,879 Speaker 1: This isn't a hazy New England that's where it looks 1020 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,359 Speaker 1: like a glass of orange juice. You can very much 1021 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,320 Speaker 1: see through this beer. And plus this g got to 1022 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,160 Speaker 1: kill her label. It's always kind of got this I 1023 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 1: don't know, like this kind of scary looking clip art 1024 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,080 Speaker 1: face on the front of it. I know I've always 1025 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: liked the Candida. I don't know how to describe it, 1026 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 1: but you'll just have to head over to the website 1027 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,719 Speaker 1: and see the image if you'd like to check it out, 1028 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,480 Speaker 1: and we'll also make sure to link to Alex's website 1029 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,160 Speaker 1: where it is that you can buy her book and 1030 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,439 Speaker 1: learn more about what she's up to. You can find 1031 00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,239 Speaker 1: all of that over at how tomoney dot com. And 1032 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 1: so that's going to be it for this episode, buddy, 1033 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,879 Speaker 1: until next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,