1
00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,280
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,119
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,360
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,959
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,360
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,200
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

7
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,799
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

8
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,200
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,360
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:46,000
Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

13
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how's it going.

14
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 1: It's going well, Paul. How about you?

15
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,240
Speaker 2: I'm doing very well. Thank you.

16
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,000
Speaker 1: Listen. I have listener mail that pertains directly to you,

17
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 1: and I've never done this before, but I thought this

18
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 1: was such an interesting comment. I wanted to get your

19
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,600
Speaker 1: reaction before you say anything. It's from a man, so

20
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 1: it's not from a woman, which surprised me too. I

21
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 1: think you get a lot of female attention, is the

22
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:27,280
Speaker 1: impression I get.

23
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,120
Speaker 2: Uh, you know what. I don't look at online comments

24
00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 2: or anything like that, so I'm a little bit scared

25
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 2: about what I'm about to hear.

26
00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,320
Speaker 1: Well, Paul, I think listeners have heard this before. You

27
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,119
Speaker 1: don't watch yourself. You don't listen. I listened to all

28
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,399
Speaker 1: of our episodes on Our Behalf because you don't like

29
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: to even listen to your own voice. You have such

30
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 1: a great voice. I've never understood that.

31
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,920
Speaker 2: No, you know, I just don't understand that. And nobody

32
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,400
Speaker 2: ever commented on my voice before I got into the

33
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,920
Speaker 2: podcast world. Yeah, ohso in the day to day world

34
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,600
Speaker 2: during my career, I was just Paul and the way

35
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:01,000
Speaker 2: I talk.

36
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, let me read this because I think it's sweet. Hi, Kate,

37
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,560
Speaker 1: I'm a seventy one year old fan of Buried Bones.

38
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm also a binge reader of detective novels since listening

39
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 1: to you and Paul so often. Every time a male

40
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,600
Speaker 1: detective or a Marshall speaks in one of these novels,

41
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 1: I hear him speaking in Paul's voice. I just thought

42
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 1: that was so sweet, and I emailed him back and

43
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,919
Speaker 1: I said, I do the same thing now. Every time

44
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,639
Speaker 1: I either write dialogue from a police officer or I

45
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 1: hear something, you know, like I hear it in my head.

46
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,800
Speaker 1: In the book it's your voice, which is a good thing.

47
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 1: Thank goodness, you have a good voice, Paul. But I

48
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 1: thought that was a very sweet comment.

49
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that tells me there's too much Paul out there.

50
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,480
Speaker 2: We need to get some other voices out of the

51
00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 2: law enforcement field.

52
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. But I think it's nice that

53
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 1: what you say resonates with people so much. I think

54
00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:01,480
Speaker 1: that you kind of represent the good officer, the good investigators,

55
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,240
Speaker 1: the good forensics people out there. So it was really nice.

56
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 2: Now that's I mean, that is very nice, and you know,

57
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,560
Speaker 2: I hope that the people who do listen, you know,

58
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 2: recognize that I try to come off with a level

59
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 2: of authenticity and to reflect. You know, I worked with

60
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,560
Speaker 2: just amazing individuals over the course of my career, and

61
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,640
Speaker 2: now that I've got a platform, I do want to

62
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 2: either directly give them some kudos and their opportunities like

63
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 2: I've had the opportunities, or even indirectly just so the

64
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 2: general people understand, you know, the hard work that the

65
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 2: professionals that are tasked with working with some of these

66
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 2: horrific crimes are. You know, what they do and the

67
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:39,800
Speaker 2: good that they accomplish.

68
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,280
Speaker 1: Well, I think you represent them very well. I think

69
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: your depth of knowledge shows so much on this show

70
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,200
Speaker 1: and all of the shows that you're on also, but

71
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 1: particularly our show. I learned something every time. So I

72
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,160
Speaker 1: think the bottom line is you have a nice voice.

73
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:54,480
Speaker 1: That's what everyone's trying to tell you.

74
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,120
Speaker 2: Paul holes well, o, Kate, I appreciate the kind words.

75
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,240
Speaker 1: Well, listen, I have got a treat for you. Not

76
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 1: only do we have a case in this century.

77
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 2: All right, so there you go, it's got something modern.

78
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 1: It is it is, and it's in nineteen sixty one,

79
00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,800
Speaker 1: and it is in Massachusetts, and there are lots of

80
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 1: photos of blood, bloody photos. So I think this is

81
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 1: a big it's like Christmas Day for you.

82
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 2: That's something I always would love to have in all

83
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,240
Speaker 2: of our episode, just so I can kind of weigh

84
00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 2: in and you know, maybe form some opinions.

85
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,000
Speaker 1: If only I had DNA that I could hand you,

86
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 1: that we could run. I think there is nothing more

87
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,159
Speaker 1: perfect for you to talk about today.

88
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 2: Now this sounds awesome. I'm looking forward to it.

89
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:47,720
Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. It is October twenty fourth,

90
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 1: which is actually pretty close to where we are right now.

91
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:56,160
Speaker 1: We're mid October, so October twenty fourth, and we're in Lincoln, Massachusetts,

92
00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,760
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. Lincoln is a suburb of Boston. And

93
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,279
Speaker 1: this all centers around a woman named Joan Rish and

94
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,960
Speaker 1: she is thirty years old. She's a homemaker, and she's

95
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 1: got two kids, and she's been married for five years

96
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,799
Speaker 1: to a man named Martin. He is in New York

97
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,159
Speaker 1: on a business trip. This is one big mystery, like

98
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,440
Speaker 1: more of a mystery I feel like than we've ever tackled,

99
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 1: and a lot of conflicting information. So this is the

100
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,560
Speaker 1: beginning of a two parter for us, and I think

101
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,120
Speaker 1: it's important to establish that there's going to be a

102
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 1: ton to unpack. All the attention is going to be

103
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,479
Speaker 1: centered on Joan here pretty soon. And let's just talk

104
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 1: about the homemaker aspect of this. Because when you're thinking

105
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 1: about somebody who is a potential victim of a crime,

106
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 1: and she may or may not be, then we think

107
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 1: of the person who's at home, male or female, whoever,

108
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,719
Speaker 1: who's at home. They're still exposed to a lot of people, right,

109
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they're out there getting groceries. I know, they're kids' parents.

110
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 1: You know. When I think of somebody who's out in

111
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,280
Speaker 1: the business world, and I think, oh my gosh, of

112
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 1: course there are a target for various reasons, but the

113
00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,240
Speaker 1: person who stays at home could also be a target

114
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 1: because they still have to encounter quite a lot of people, right.

115
00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and you think about somebody who is

116
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,599
Speaker 2: a homemaker, and especially in nineteen sixty one, it's predominantly females,

117
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 2: you know. And then now we've seen, of course a

118
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,960
Speaker 2: cultural shift where more men are staying at home, and

119
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,039
Speaker 2: then post pandemic, now we can see a lot of

120
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,320
Speaker 2: people who are working from home in the online space.

121
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:37,039
Speaker 2: But I think what stands out about this era and

122
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,839
Speaker 2: this homemaker category victimology, if you will, is that they

123
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 2: will have fairly set life patterns, especially you know, if

124
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,479
Speaker 2: you're talking about Joan, who's got two kids. To say,

125
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,039
Speaker 2: the age of the.

126
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,160
Speaker 1: Kids four and two, So a four year old girl

127
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,000
Speaker 1: and a two year old son, and they just had

128
00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,159
Speaker 1: them pretty quickly after they got married apparently.

129
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't know if if these kids are

130
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 2: going into like preschool or daycare, probably not at those ages.

131
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 2: But Joan's still going to have a life pattern that

132
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 2: is going to be centered around, you know, taking care

133
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 2: of the kids, taking care of the meals, you know,

134
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,120
Speaker 2: as you mentioned going out grocery shopping. Does she have

135
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,640
Speaker 2: a somebody who can watch the kids during the day

136
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 2: or is everything on her?

137
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like everything's on her. There's a neighbor who

138
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,720
Speaker 1: comes into play here pretty soon where it sounds like

139
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 1: they kind of watch each other's kids. I don't know

140
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 1: if it's anything formal, but she has a couple of

141
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,320
Speaker 1: unexpected things happening. I don't know. You can tell me

142
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,320
Speaker 1: what you think about the pattern of the day that

143
00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,080
Speaker 1: this starts to happen, and then you can let me

144
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 1: know what you think. But you're just basically saying that

145
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,760
Speaker 1: that people who stay at home oftentimes create a pattern.

146
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 2: Create a pattern in which you know, of course, I'll

147
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 2: have to see how this case develops, but you know,

148
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 2: the pattern in which somebody who is able to you know,

149
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,280
Speaker 2: remotely observe Jones pattern. Let's say a neighbor can start

150
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 2: to predict when Joan would be vulnerable, or somebody who

151
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 2: has focused in on Joan has a potential victim, a

152
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 2: stranger from outside the neighborhood, but is able to post up,

153
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 2: whether it be in a vehicle, whether it be in

154
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,440
Speaker 2: the you know, the recesses of the backyard like a

155
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 2: Joseph DiAngelo and start to see Joan's life pattern and

156
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 2: try to determine, you know, when to attack. And I'm

157
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 2: assuming Joan is a victim in this this case.

158
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean, this case is so mysterious. I'm going to

159
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 1: go with yes, but I'm not one hundred percent sure. Okay,

160
00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,760
Speaker 1: I know, I told you this is one of the

161
00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,000
Speaker 1: wackier ones. So let's just go with yes. Yes, you

162
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 1: must be a victim. Yes.

163
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,720
Speaker 2: And the other thing about the homemaker victimology during this

164
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,800
Speaker 2: era is that somebody is going to be able to

165
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,560
Speaker 2: predict that a female is home and a male is

166
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 2: in the office. And so there again, you don't have

167
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,360
Speaker 2: the male threat to an offender who wants to go

168
00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:58,960
Speaker 2: into the house potentially.

169
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 1: Okay, well, so the social norms of the time play

170
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:09,120
Speaker 1: into this too. Okay, that's interesting. So let's talk about

171
00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,320
Speaker 1: Jones's day. So, as I said before, this is a

172
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,360
Speaker 1: week before Halloween, and she's got these two little kids.

173
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,320
Speaker 1: She has a four year old daughter named Lilian, and

174
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,840
Speaker 1: she has a two year old son named David. And

175
00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,400
Speaker 1: remember her husband's name is Martin. He's in New York

176
00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,199
Speaker 1: verified on a business trip. So Joan goes to the

177
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,360
Speaker 1: dentist where she and the four year old Lillian both

178
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,880
Speaker 1: have appointments at nine point thirty that morning, and the son,

179
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 1: the two year old David, is dropped off at Jon's

180
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,040
Speaker 1: neighbor's house, who is a woman named Barbara Barker, and

181
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,679
Speaker 1: Barbara will become important in a little while. So the

182
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 1: two year old is with the neighbor and Joan takes

183
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 1: Lillian to the dentist. After they get to the appointments,

184
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 1: everything's fine. After they go to the appointments, Joan and

185
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 1: Lilian go shopping and they run a few errands, so

186
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: kind of unpredictable. At this point, she picks up David

187
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,840
Speaker 1: across the street and the family goes back to the

188
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,959
Speaker 1: house around eleven am. This is the most, i will say, Paul,

189
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 1: the most boring setup for a potential murder that we

190
00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,480
Speaker 1: have ever had. I mean, you just don't get any

191
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,960
Speaker 1: more boring than this. It is just a day where

192
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,959
Speaker 1: they're just kind of living life, and that's the scariest,

193
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 1: you know, thing of something that happens that's unexpected. She

194
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: picks up David at the neighbors the family goes back

195
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,120
Speaker 1: to the house. Around eleven, Joan makes the kids some lunch,

196
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,840
Speaker 1: and around noon, David needs a n app so she

197
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 1: puts David down. He naps usually from noon until two PM,

198
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:40,960
Speaker 1: which is great. I don't think my kids are right

199
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,559
Speaker 1: out that long. So at a one twenty the neighbor,

200
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 1: Barbara Barker, her son Douglas comes across the street and

201
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,880
Speaker 1: wants to play with Lillian in Jan's yard. And the

202
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,839
Speaker 1: kids often did this, so he comes across the street.

203
00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 1: I assume they're about the same age, and I think

204
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 1: Barbara's watching them across the street. We don't know what

205
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 1: Jan's doing at this time the mom between one and

206
00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,439
Speaker 1: two on this day, we don't know. But at one

207
00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,440
Speaker 1: fifty five, David is still napping and she leaves him

208
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,839
Speaker 1: in his crib and she takes Lillian and Douglas the

209
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 1: little boy by the hand, and goes back over to

210
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,360
Speaker 1: the swing set, to the neighbor's swing set. She says

211
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,559
Speaker 1: she doesn't tell Barbara that the kids are now back

212
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,200
Speaker 1: in Barbara's own yard, and I don't know why. She

213
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,480
Speaker 1: tells her daughter and Douglas, I'll be right back for

214
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,320
Speaker 1: you guys. I'm just going to go back into the

215
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,559
Speaker 1: house and that is the last time anyone saw Joan alive.

216
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:47,040
Speaker 2: Okay. So Joan takes Barbara's kid and Lillian over to

217
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,640
Speaker 2: Barbara's house at the swing set, leaves him in the yard,

218
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 2: and then tells those kids she's going to go back

219
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 2: to check on David.

220
00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,719
Speaker 1: Right, yes, she says, well, she said, I'm going to

221
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,480
Speaker 1: go back. I'll be right back, just going to go

222
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,240
Speaker 1: check in. And then that was it. And I'll tell

223
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,360
Speaker 1: you the setup of the discovery of what we find, Okay,

224
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,200
Speaker 1: that indicates this was likely a murder. But that is

225
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,840
Speaker 1: the only setup we have. I have a lot of

226
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,160
Speaker 1: early life of Joan that could give us some hints,

227
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,680
Speaker 1: or I have the scenes, so you tell me which

228
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 1: one you want to hear first. But that is all

229
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,319
Speaker 1: we know about what she did beforehand. Husband's clueless, and

230
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 1: the neighbors said, well, I never saw her bring Douglas

231
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,360
Speaker 1: back over with Lilian. But the kids said, yeah, that's

232
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,640
Speaker 1: what she did, and it wouldn't have been unusual at all.

233
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to start with the scene. Okay, do

234
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:36,560
Speaker 2: you know me?

235
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,040
Speaker 1: I know you, Okay, so let's get to it. We

236
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,360
Speaker 1: have some pretty serious blood and I'll tell you don't

237
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,080
Speaker 1: bring up your photo yet. I sent you some photos,

238
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,880
Speaker 1: but you're gonna need to look at him. There's quite

239
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 1: a few photos of what we presume is Joan's blood.

240
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 1: Here's when things go wrong. At one fifty five, Joan

241
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,599
Speaker 1: dropped off her daughter Lilian and the neighbor's kid, Douglas,

242
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,800
Speaker 1: presumably because she was going to put him in the yard,

243
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 1: the neighbor's yard, and come back across the street check

244
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,880
Speaker 1: on David, who I guess, like clockwork, woke up at

245
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 1: two and then nobody sees her again. So time goes

246
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,760
Speaker 1: by and Barbara Barker is alarmed because it's three forty

247
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,760
Speaker 1: five now, so you know, almost two hours after she

248
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 1: had dropped off these two kids in her yard, and

249
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 1: she's kind of going, where's my friend? And Lilian would

250
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 1: like to go home. So she finally walks Lillian back

251
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,400
Speaker 1: to the house, and as I said, you know, this

252
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,240
Speaker 1: is a two hour time difference. Once she gets inside,

253
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 1: Lilian can't find her mom. She's running all over the house. Instead,

254
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,200
Speaker 1: she finds a bloody scene in the kitchen, and a

255
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 1: common quote is that, you know, the kitchen looks like

256
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: it was covered in red paint. There is an author

257
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 1: who really covered this extensively in a book called A

258
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,560
Speaker 1: Kitchen Painted in Blood. His name is Stephen Ahern and

259
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,120
Speaker 1: it's an excellent resource. This is what I know Maren

260
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 1: really looked at for this episode. They said, it is

261
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,320
Speaker 1: just covered in red paint. And you'll see what I

262
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,760
Speaker 1: mean when I show you some of these photos. So

263
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 1: a question I had initially, Barbara I think just left

264
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,480
Speaker 1: her at the door. The neighbor just let, you know,

265
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,200
Speaker 1: let her inside and then shut the door. And Barbara

266
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,360
Speaker 1: didn't go inside, and I don't know why she would

267
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,040
Speaker 1: have anyway, she just said, go find your mom. I'll

268
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 1: see you guys later. She shuts the door. She goes

269
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 1: back over. So Barbara does not see this scene. It

270
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 1: is this four year old wandering around the house alone

271
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 1: until she gets to the kitchen and sees this play scene.

272
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,360
Speaker 1: Lillian goes upstairs at first to look for the mom,

273
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: and David is crying in his crib. We don't know

274
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,000
Speaker 1: if he has been in his crib since he first

275
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 1: went down for a nap, or if at some point

276
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,520
Speaker 1: Joan at two o'clock when he woke up, got him

277
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,360
Speaker 1: and then put him back. We don't know what happened,

278
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,760
Speaker 1: but he's very wet, he has an overfilled diaper. He

279
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 1: obviously hasn't been tended to for a while. So Lillian

280
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,160
Speaker 1: doesn't know. As a four old, of course, doesn't know

281
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: what to do. She waits with David for a few minutes.

282
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,720
Speaker 1: She's completely freaked out, and eventually she runs across the

283
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 1: street and finds Barbara and says, I need to find

284
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,120
Speaker 1: my mom. Do you have anything to say before I

285
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 1: tell you kind of the actions that happen after that.

286
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 2: Well, you know, what a horrific thing for Lilian to

287
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 2: have to be exposed to. I'm sure that that is

288
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 2: something that stayed with Lilian for her entire life. You know.

289
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 2: Part of the assessment of the scene without knowing anything

290
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,480
Speaker 2: about it outside of you know, what sounds like an

291
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,680
Speaker 2: extensive amount of bloodshed within the kitchen is there's a

292
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 2: four year old girl that is wandering through this house.

293
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 2: So there has to be an accounting for her actions

294
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 2: inside that house. Did she go into the kitchen, did

295
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 2: she step into any of the blood? Did she touch

296
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 2: any of the blood? And then as she's moving through

297
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,040
Speaker 2: the house, is there a possibility that Lilian has sort

298
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 2: of contaminated this scene, and this is something that is unavoidable,

299
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,120
Speaker 2: you know, obviously, But as a crime scene investigator, as

300
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 2: an investigator, as a blood pattern person, I have to

301
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,920
Speaker 2: take into account those types of actions that could have

302
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 2: caused some issues within the scene after the offender has left.

303
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 2: So the offender commits a crime and then leaves the

304
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 2: crime scene, now you have the crime scene in a

305
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 2: static space that would be accurate to what the offender

306
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 2: did during the commission of the crime. But then we

307
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 2: have people who discover the body, we have first responders

308
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,160
Speaker 2: coming in. There's changes to the crime scene. And that's

309
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 2: something that I'm now immediately keying in on because Lilian

310
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,040
Speaker 2: has a four year old girl is not necessarily just

311
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 2: going to stop because she sees blood in the kitchen.

312
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: And I had actually wondered is it worth at that

313
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 1: age talking to Lilian and finding out exactly what she

314
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 1: might have done? So, Sweetie, do you think did you

315
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 1: move this? Did you move you know, because there's some

316
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 1: things that are out of place that are really alarming

317
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 1: for investigators, Or do you think at that age she's

318
00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: not even going to be aware of half of what

319
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 1: she did. If she's panicking running around trying to find

320
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: her mother.

321
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where relying on your child interview experts.

322
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 2: You know, in this day and age, we recognize that

323
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 2: we need to approach kids this age in a different

324
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,520
Speaker 2: way than how investigators approached kids as witnesses back in

325
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,199
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties. But yes, you know she at that age,

326
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,640
Speaker 2: I can imagine that she would be able to provide

327
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 2: at least some accurate information as to her behaviors. Maybe

328
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 2: not everything, but the interview needs to be done in

329
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,400
Speaker 2: a proper way.

330
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,800
Speaker 1: Well, when you hear some of the details of this scene,

331
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,480
Speaker 1: you can tell me whether you think this could be

332
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,959
Speaker 1: a Lillian interference thing, or a contamination from first responders

333
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 1: thing or what. Okay, there's an interesting little timeline here.

334
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,399
Speaker 1: So the last time anyone saw Joan was one fifty

335
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,040
Speaker 1: five PM. Then Lillian arrives at the house at three

336
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600
Speaker 1: forty five panics goes to get Barbara. I would have

337
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 1: to imagine in less than ten So Barbara takes from

338
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,440
Speaker 1: four point fifteen until four thirty ish, as late as

339
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 1: four thirty to get another neighbor, a woman named Mary

340
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,159
Speaker 1: Jane Butler, to search with her in this house. So

341
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 1: they don't call the police immediately. They decide these two

342
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: women to go to the house, but they wait an

343
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 1: awful long time. I mean it's about forty five minutes.

344
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,119
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're petrified. If Lillian is describing this red

345
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 1: paint seen in the kitchen, I'm sure they didn't really

346
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,720
Speaker 1: know what to do. I still don't ever really quite

347
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,920
Speaker 1: understand when people just don't call the police. But maybe

348
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 1: in the sixties they were afraid it was something else

349
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,159
Speaker 1: and they were going to embarrass Joan. I don't know.

350
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,800
Speaker 2: Well. Part of it, of course, is that you know,

351
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,280
Speaker 2: ninety nine point nine percent of the people have never

352
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 2: experienced a violent crime. You know, when first exposed to

353
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,120
Speaker 2: something that you've never seen before, you've never walked into before,

354
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,439
Speaker 2: there is going to be this processing what am I

355
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,080
Speaker 2: looking at here and not necessarily understanding. I have a

356
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:06,359
Speaker 2: case where a wife found her son and husband bound

357
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 2: and shot to death, and of course there were pools

358
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,440
Speaker 2: of blood around each of the victim's head. She tells investigators,

359
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 2: I thought they had built grape fruit juice or grape juice,

360
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 2: and they were kneeling down to clean it up. You know,

361
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 2: that just really emphasized she as being what I would

362
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 2: call a naive person from you know, exposure to violent crime,

363
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 2: did not know what she was looking at. I imagine

364
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 2: when Lilian is he got this four year old Lilian,

365
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 2: this little girl coming over and describing red stains or blood.

366
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 2: I'm not even sure she would have recognized it as blood.

367
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,719
Speaker 2: But something is off inside the kitchen, Barbara maybe going

368
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 2: what is going on with her is there's somebody scary

369
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 2: inside the house? And is this why Barbara is now

370
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 2: seeking out a companion sort of a safety net to

371
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 2: go into the house together to kind of see what

372
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 2: Lilian is telling them. And then now you have the

373
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 2: two adult are now recognizing, oh, something really bad is

374
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 2: going on, versus relying upon what the four year old

375
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 2: girl said. So the amount of time it takes before

376
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 2: they notify law enforcement, I think is reasonably explainable based

377
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: on my experiences in terms of you know, victims or

378
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 2: neighbors or something discovering a crime. But it's something at

379
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: least to note, you know, because now you have a

380
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,399
Speaker 2: temporal component that I have to take into consideration. You know,

381
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 2: there's one point fifty five, you know, you've got you know,

382
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 2: Barbera leaving and then now you're you're as far out

383
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 2: as what four point thirty, so you've got two and

384
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 2: a half hours, you know, So this this impacts you know,

385
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 2: how much time you know, the offender may have been

386
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: inside the house, how much time the offender has had

387
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,400
Speaker 2: to leave the house. Right now, you haven't even told

388
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 2: me whether or not Jones' body is found inside the house,

389
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 2: you know. So the temporal component will be something that

390
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 2: comes into play as I get a better understanding of

391
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,679
Speaker 2: the dynamics of what happened during this crime.

392
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 1: And now we're adding two more people to the mix

393
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: to contaminate this scene. Because we have Barbara and Mary

394
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: Jane going to the house. They do not find Joan either.

395
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: There is the bloody kitchen, and at four thirty three,

396
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 1: Barbara calls the police and I will tell you, Paul

397
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: right now. I mean, you know, I like to drag

398
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: you around sometimes. I like to lead you around and

399
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: say this person, were they murdered, were they not murdered?

400
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: She's gone. No one has ever found her. What we're

401
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 1: left with is a huge amount of blood and some

402
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: really weird scenes, some really weird mysteries. But she has

403
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 1: vanished forever.

404
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is a no body homicide, yep.

405
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: If it's a homicide, because there's a big if there

406
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 1: with some of these people.

407
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 2: Well, and that's where, you know, when I get to

408
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 2: take a look at the blood patterns, you know, maybe

409
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: I'll be able to discern whether or not I would

410
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 2: characterize this as a homicide. And usually when we're dealing

411
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: with nobody homicides, we've found a location, a death scene

412
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 2: in which the amount of blood and the types of

413
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 2: blood patterns are present, we're fairly confident that the person

414
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: did not survive. This is where Okay, how did the

415
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,880
Speaker 2: offender get the body in this case Joan away from

416
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: this location? And then where did where did the offender

417
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 2: place Joan? But right now, nobody homicide. Lots of blood

418
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 2: in the kitchen.

419
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: Yes, well my interpretation of lots of blood. They are

420
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: saying half a pint of blood. I don't know if

421
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: that's a lot of blood. It looks like a lot

422
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: of blood in me, But everybody's definition is different. Do

423
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: you consider that if they're estimating correctly half a pint

424
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: of blood?

425
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 2: I you know, I have to see Sometimes you get

426
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 2: these you know, somebody will take a look at a

427
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: blood pool and you know, say, oh, yeah, this is

428
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 2: this is so much of this blood. But when you

429
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: have smears and spatter and there's just no way to

430
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 2: put a volume on it. You know, the volume is

431
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 2: typically when you have a blood pool. And if you

432
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: have a blood pool, that indicates that you had an

433
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 2: individual with a bleeding injury at that location for a

434
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: period of time. So it all depends on how large

435
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: that blood pool is as to whether or not that

436
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 2: appears at that person had a fatal injury and they

437
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: bled out at the location, or you know they didn't

438
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: have a fatal injury.

439
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: Well, let's get one motive out of the way, and

440
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: then I know you're anxious to get to the photos.

441
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: Jones purse is there in the kitchen, car keys are there,

442
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: Money's there. I know that doesn't always mean that robbery

443
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: wasn't a motive, but there is that those would have

444
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: been easy things for somebody to grab. So it says

445
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: that the aside from a small table that seems to

446
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 1: have been thrown from its usual place it's usually under

447
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: the kitchen telephone, but it was in the hallway kind

448
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: of on its side, there isn't a suggestion of a

449
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: struggle except from the blood in the kitchen. Everything in

450
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: the house looks like it's in order, and it looks

451
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: like someone started to clean up the blood but then

452
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: abruptly stopped. Oh okay, yep, and everything else. So I'm

453
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: trying to figure out when to just show you the

454
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 1: photos and stop talking. But there's some interpretation for the

455
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: police to offer you that would go along with the photos.

456
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: So do you want to look at the photos and

457
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: then I can kind of add stuff in as we

458
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: go along, or what do you think?

459
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know. The first thing I need

460
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: to know is, you know, Barbara and the neighbor call

461
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: the police. Are they calling from inside Jones house or

462
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: do they go back across the street? Is Barbara's phone

463
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: something that they interact with.

464
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: The phone receiver in its court had been pulled off

465
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: the wall and then intentionally placed on the rim of

466
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: a small trash can which is full and had been

467
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: set in the middle of the floor. So normally the

468
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: trash can is under the sink. There are a couple

469
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: of things that are off, so it looks like the

470
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: phone receiver in the court had been pulled off the wall.

471
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: So no, I immediate leak kind of keyed in on

472
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: when you said that the small table had been kind

473
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: of strewn aside, and it normally was underneath where the

474
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: phone was on the wall. And so, you know, my

475
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: immediate thought was, well, this almost sounds like Joan recognized

476
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: a threat inside the house, went to the phone, and

477
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: that threat caught up to her at that moment. And

478
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: so now you have that initial interaction between Joan and

479
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: the offender. Now the offender, I don't know if during

480
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: a struggle with you know, you could easily see Joan

481
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: holding onto the phone and during that struggle it gets

482
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 2: pulled out of the wall. But you also may have

483
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 2: an offender who's purposefully removing the phone to prevent the

484
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: operator from being called. Nineteen sixty one is in the

485
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 2: days before nine to one one, so typically you'd be

486
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 2: dialing zero in order to get the operator in order

487
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: to get a hold of law enforcement. You're generally not

488
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 2: calling law enforcement directly during this era. So what I

489
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: have to see, you know, is you know what else

490
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 2: is going on and is this potentially contamination as a

491
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 2: result of Barbara or the neighbor. I'd out Lily would

492
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: be interacting with the phone much. But this is where're

493
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: interviewing you know, what all did you do when you're

494
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: inside the house.

495
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: So I think that your theory must be right, because

496
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: in the whole way, near the overturned table, there's an

497
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: apron that has been flung onto the floor, and there

498
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: is a local telephone directory which is open to the

499
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: section containing numbers for emergency services. So does that sound

500
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: like she heard something? She's opening your right No. Nine

501
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: to one one, She's opening up the telephone book desperately

502
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: trying to find who to call, and is attacked in

503
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: the middle of it.

504
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: Well, that's odd because, of course, you know, if you

505
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: are seeing a threat and that threat sees you, I

506
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 2: would expect this to be a very very quick encounter

507
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 2: where Joan would not have had the time to go

508
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 2: to the telephone book. So you know, I'm starting to

509
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: again this is all just speculation, But I'm wondering, Okay,

510
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 2: does Joan hear something in the house and now now

511
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: needs to take the phone directory out to call emergency

512
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 2: services or is there somebody in there after Joan is bleeding,

513
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 2: who's now second guessing what has happened and is now

514
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 2: going I need to get medical attention to this woman

515
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: and then changes course for one reason or another. So

516
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: I don't know how to interpret it right now.

517
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's just get into it. Let's look at

518
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: the photos. So pull up that document that I sent you.

519
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: So the first photo you see is Joan, the second

520
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: one is the house, so those will be helpful.

521
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: So now I am looking at the first crime scene photo,

522
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 2: which is somewhat of an overview of a photo show

523
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: in the kitchen floor with what appears to be white

524
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: or light colored kitchen cabinetry, as well as possibly on

525
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: the right hand side a stove. It looks like the sink.

526
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: I can't see the countertop, so I'm having to just

527
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: look at the cabinetry and see what the kitchen layout is.

528
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 2: But to the left of the photograph appears to be

529
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: likely where the sink is. To the right appears to

530
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: be where the stove is. And then I see the

531
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: tiled kitchen floor, which is predominantly white square tiles with

532
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: some it's not a random but a few of these

533
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: roughly twelve inch by twelve inch tiles. I'm going to

534
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: call them sort of like your vinyl tile, you know,

535
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: just sort of that kind of era. They're not slate,

536
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: it's not, you know, anything fancy, but you have the

537
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: darker tiles. On the left hand side on the floor

538
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: is a trash can that is very full. And then

539
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: I see up against the kitchen cabinet tree a paper

540
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: towel roll that it looks like it's actually rolled, so

541
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: a fair amount of the paper towels are are away

542
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: from the roll, but it looks more like the paper

543
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: towel roll roll to this location, and as it unspun,

544
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: some of this length of paper towels are just laying there,

545
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: which that is on top of Is that the phone

546
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: book in the back well, I'm now seeing the zoomed

547
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: image and calling that a children's book.

548
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: And the author actually says it's drawing paper. I thought

549
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: it was paper towels too. They say it's drawing paper

550
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: and then write a children's book, okay. And these are

551
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: items that normally sit underneath the small table that's now

552
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: been tossed in the hallway, so they were flung off

553
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: obviously when the furniture was moved.

554
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: Right you know, So right now I think there is

555
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: sequencing information with that paper towel roll on top of

556
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: this children's book or drawing paper. And then towards the

557
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: front of the photo on the floor, I see what

558
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: appears to be some you know, in my experience, these

559
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: are relatively minor blood pools with some blood flows out

560
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: of them. You know, the skitchen floor, even though it's

561
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: very smooth and to us very flat, all of these

562
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: floors have some unevenness and so the blood will eat

563
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: when it pools. You'll start to see some of these

564
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: flows follow the lower parts of the floor, so that's

565
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: fairly typical. Then I do see some smears. In addition,

566
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: there appears to be a paper towel that's on top

567
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,719
Speaker 2: of a blood smear, and I can scroll down. You're

568
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: gonna let me scroll down? Am I going to get

569
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: my handslapped? No? You're good, Okay. I have another view

570
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: which is showing basically I can see the stove, which

571
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: was in the right part of the photo, so like

572
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: if I were to turn to my right about ninety degrees,

573
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: this is a photo showing this other corner of the

574
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: kitchen which shows a door, and it's just a single door.

575
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: It's not like it's a big double door. Don't know

576
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: if it's a bathroom or you know, something else, but

577
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: it's right there in that corner. There appears to be

578
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: maybe a hallway right next to the stove itself that

579
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: leads back to another space in the house of some sort.

580
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: And I think the table that you are describing that

581
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: used to be under the phone is seeing tipped over

582
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: in this you know hallway still somewhat in the kitchen, yep.

583
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: And then there's a child's it's like a high chair,

584
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: right high chair, thank you, you know, that's just to

585
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: the right of the photo, in front of what appears

586
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: to be a furnace along the wall. The previously described

587
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: blood smears and blood pools with the paper towel on

588
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: top in the center of the kitchen floor is in

589
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: the lower part of this photo. And then back towards

590
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: the rear of this photo, near where that tipped over

591
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: table is, appears to be some more possible blood pooling

592
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: as well as a significant contact transfer of blood approximately

593
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: three feet high up on this rear wall. That is

594
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: a corner wall. So I see two short walls coming

595
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: to a corner and a blood smear on the left

596
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: hand side or a contact transfer. I'm pretty sure it's

597
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: a contact transfer, and I see a blow up of

598
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: it and the lower photo, so that is a contact

599
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: transfer as well as what appears to be a minor

600
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: blood pool with some smearing in it, actually on the

601
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: floor and then up onto the base board in the

602
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: corner of this. So right now, you know, typically I

603
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: like to know what the victim's injuries are to interpret

604
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: blood patterns. That's usually a critical thing at this point.

605
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: Since I don't have that, all I can say is

606
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: there appears to be you know, a significant bleeding injury,

607
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: and this bleeding injury possibly with Joe, assuming this is

608
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: Joan's blood, and I think that's a reasonable assumption. You

609
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: know that that Joan has been moved around after she

610
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: started bleeding, whether she is voluntarily moving around, she's in

611
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: combat with this offender, which is likely with some of

612
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: the blood smearing, or she has been incapacitated and being

613
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: moved around. There are some what appeared to be blood

614
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: droplets on that corner wall. They're larger and there's not

615
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 2: a lot of them, so probably can't interpret those, but

616
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: that would tend to indicate, you know, that there's possibly

617
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: those are a result of blow to a pooled blood source.

618
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing enough to be able to decide if

619
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: it's you know, consistent with cast off. Like let's say

620
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: you have a bloody knife or a bloody hammer or something.

621
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: Right now, with the types of bleeding at this scene,

622
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: I would at least say, you know, there was significant

623
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: violence done to Joan, and I would lean towards this

624
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: is likely homicide. However, I do not believe that there

625
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: is sufficient blood to say she definitely bled out at

626
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: this location. In my experience, this is not a lot

627
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: of blood relatively speaking. I mean, it's a significant you know,

628
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: significant injuries, no question about it. But in terms of

629
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: being an extensively bloody scene, now, you know, this is

630
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: very typical for a homicide scene inside a house in

631
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: which you have somebody that's being beat or somebody you

632
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: know that's being stabbed. It's just it is routine.

633
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: Well, we have a print, couple of prints actually, and

634
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: so stay with that photograph document that I gave you.

635
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: So it seems like investigators think most of the actions

636
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: started with this telephone. There are prints all over the place.

637
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: They all seem to belong to the family members, people

638
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 1: who they know who are immediate family members. But there

639
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: are three prints that do not match anybody in the family.

640
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: There's a partial palm print and a fingerprint which are

641
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: found on the wall where the telephone is mounted, and

642
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: there is a thumb print on the phone receiver speaker,

643
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: which I think is the thing that isn't in trash can,

644
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: and you can see a pretty clear photograph of that.

645
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: Over the course of the investigation, the FBI got involved.

646
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: They compare these prints to ten thousand other prints and

647
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: they have never found a match. So what do you

648
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: think about that? And you now have a photo you

649
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: can look at this print, these prints that show up

650
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: in the scene.

651
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 2: My first thought is are these prints in Jones's blood?

652
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 2: Because then now I have temporal indication that these prints

653
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 2: were deposited after the bloodshed occurred, and it becomes much

654
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: more significant. I will tell you you can go into

655
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: any house and you know, back then this was almost

656
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: exclusively latent. Print processing was done with black powder. And

657
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: black powder's good. You know, it's not as sensitive as

658
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 2: like if you fume the inside of a vehicle or

659
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: a room or something with super glue and then do

660
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: die staining and some of the more advanced chemistries that

661
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: we can do. But it's still going to recover a

662
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: fair amount of prints, Layton prints, and any house has

663
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: prints that you can never identify. You have so many

664
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: people flowing into and out of a house. And if

665
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: it's if these prints are deposited in a location where

666
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: they're never cleaned, they're never wiped, they can persist for

667
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 2: a long long time. So with that being said, now

668
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: I want to take a look at picture of the

669
00:35:59,239 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: You have a picture of a.

670
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: Print and read pull aloud the description because it answers

671
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: some of your questions of these prints. And the first

672
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 1: one is impressions in blood not powdered.

673
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 2: Okay, now you're you're testing my vision here.

674
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: Oh no, get your contacts.

675
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: Let's see here. Okay, So I am. I am looking

676
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: at page eight of this document. So I am looking

677
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: at some images of the Layton prints. It appears that

678
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: there's four Layton prints that are in this on this page.

679
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: So the upper left print is impression in blood not

680
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: powdered as originally on telephone ridges, white furrows and background black,

681
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 2: enlarged finger not known. Okay, So what they're telling me

682
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: is that this is a bloody print. I can take

683
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 2: a look at this print and I can see the

684
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: core of the print. So it's sort of like your whirl,

685
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: your loop, et cetera. That's so it's going to be

686
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: somewhat capturing the center of the top part of the

687
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: finger as well as I can see ridge details extending

688
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: out from this core, I can't see the delta, where

689
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: sometimes most of the time there's a delta near the core.

690
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: So it's kind of telling me that it's capturing the

691
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: center and the upper part of this finger. But when

692
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: they say finger not known, that means they don't have

693
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: surrounding prints to say, oh, this is the index finger

694
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: or this is the ring finger. And so when you

695
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: start having to search a database of finger prints, you

696
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: can't just focus in on one one finger. You now

697
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: have to look at all the fingers, which today, with

698
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: computerized systems, that's not that big of a deal, but

699
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: back in nineteen sixty one, that just makes it that

700
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: much more complicated to try to sort through significant that

701
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: they're saying it's in blood, you know, and of course

702
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: you have to eliminate Lilian and they probably can just

703
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: be off the size of the finger print. But the

704
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: other adults in the house, first responders, you know, and

705
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: even Joan herself, and.

706
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: They said they did all that and nobody matches this

707
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: particular print.

708
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does, you know, this is not the greatest copy.

709
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: But I would say with the amount of ridge detail

710
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: that is captured in this print and how complete it is,

711
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 2: because I am able to pick out what are called points,

712
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 2: the various places of the ridge pattern that are used

713
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: by fingerprint examiners to do the comparison, and so I

714
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 2: can see bifurcations, I can see ending ridges, see a

715
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 2: fair amount even with this poor copy that I would say, yeah,

716
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 2: this does look like if they find the right person,

717
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: it could be identifiable. So the upper right photograph is

718
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 2: the same print, but what they've done is a reversal

719
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: of the photo. So now, in essence, it's like looking

720
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: at a negative and sometimes your eyes can see things

721
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: better that way. Does it help you well in this

722
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: In this copy there's less detail being exposed. Yeah, I

723
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: mean I can still see make out the core. You know,

724
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: it's just a loop as well as you know some

725
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: of the ridge detail. But it's it's a poor copy

726
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: for whatever reason. So right now, you know, the original

727
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 2: image is better to my eye than the reversal. Okay,

728
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 2: now moving on to the photo app left, which is

729
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: described as prints on wall developed with black powder. Maybe

730
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: right hand, but search should not be so limited. The

731
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: description prints on wall and it's developed with black powder.

732
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: You know, the location has become significant. Is this a

733
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: location within the house. I'm assuming it's probably within the

734
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 2: kitchen in which you have an offender that's been there.

735
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 2: Is this a location that the offender likely would have

736
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: touched during the commission of this type of crime. I

737
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 2: have none of that information. They've black powdered the wall,

738
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: and they've got these two side by side prints that

739
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: were developed, and they look like two sequential things on

740
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: a hand, but without more information, I can't determine which

741
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: fingers of which hand these prints would be.

742
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: Right And the only thing they can say is that

743
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: this is a partial palm print and a fingerprint on

744
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: the wall where the telephone is mounted.

745
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 2: Well, this photo on the left is two fingerprints, and

746
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: then the bottom photo is the partial palm and so

747
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: that's this what they call photo below and they write

748
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: palm impression on wall with position relative to prints and

749
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: photo on left possibly indicating right hand, but not certain

750
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: black powdered ridges. So that's where with the palm, you know,

751
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 2: you could you know the theener region, you know, you

752
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: can kind of figure out like this big thing on

753
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: the thumb, you know, the ridges. A competent fingerprint examiner

754
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: would have no issues identifying this as a as a

755
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: partial palm, and it's a pretty good palm print to

756
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: be frighted, but partial palm from the right hand. I

757
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 2: think their question is is that since it's underneath where

758
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: the two fingers are on this wall, are those two

759
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 2: fingers part of this partial palm could be? You know,

760
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: it also could be just randomly placed by two different touches,

761
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: by possibly two different individuals. So that's part of the

762
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: complexity in terms of trying to assess the specifics of

763
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: are these two different prints, the fingerprints and the palm,

764
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: are they related or not? However, to be frank, you

765
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: have to go after this, this palm print and the

766
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: other two prints. But I'm most excited about the one

767
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: on the finger in blood that tells me that was

768
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: left after bleeding occurred, So it gives a smaller pool

769
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: of individuals that it could have come from the palm print,

770
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: and the other two fingers could be from the maintenance

771
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: man that was working on the furnace in that kitchen

772
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: three years ago. So I actually had this in Golden State,

773
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: Killer where I had a phone that the when he

774
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 2: was known as Easter a rapist had touched and resubmitted

775
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: Layton Prince or was a Layton print found on the

776
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: bottom of this phone and we identified it and it

777
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: turned out to be like this Hispanic mail that was

778
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: a phone serviceman from several years prior that had been

779
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: inside the victim's house. Yeah, so that kind of thing

780
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: does happen. You have to spend the resources to go

781
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: after this this type of evidence, but it may not

782
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: lead anywhere. It could be a red herring.

783
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: There's no way now, Like what would they need now

784
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: to run it against these prints against the national database?

785
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: Would we be able to do that? I think Maren said,

786
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: there's a note that said that the author from twenty

787
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: twenty who wrote this said he didn't think that that

788
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: had happened. We're not sure whether anybody's ever done that

789
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: since this crime happened in sixty one.

790
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: Well, with the FBI's you know, current iteration, and I'm

791
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: a little bit dated in terms of where they're at

792
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 2: with the technology, but the FBI's IEPHIS system, you could

793
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: easily input that bloody print in that palm print because

794
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,959
Speaker 2: they do allow for partial poems and that's a really

795
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: good palm and search the database of millions of prints

796
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 2: in the FBI system. I would say, yeah, it's possible

797
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: you could have a hit and solve this case if

798
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: those prints come back to you know, somebody that you go,

799
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 2: you investigate and go, yeah, this person killed Joan took

800
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: her away.

801
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about where if this is Jones blood

802
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: and we assume this is where she must have been,

803
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: we've established that the kitchen phone seems like kind of

804
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: the start of the action, or at least a lot

805
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: of action. They said that there is under the mounted

806
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: phone that was mounted there is a six inch stain

807
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 1: which is square shaped, directly below the phone hook, which

808
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: is two feet off the floor. The stain is two

809
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: feet off the floor at about fourteen inches from the

810
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: corner of the wall. And then they said, there's a

811
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: heavy stain pulled on the floor in the kitchen corner

812
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: below and diagonally to the right of the telephone. Let's

813
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: just assume this was you know, she's beaten with something.

814
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe that's not what happened, but is that

815
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: sort of your best guess, knife versus beating? Is there

816
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: any way to even think about.

817
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: That no, you know, right now, with the photos I have,

818
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 2: I can't discern whether or not she received any incisive

819
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: injuries or any cast off of a knife versus receiving

820
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: blows from a fist. This what they describe as that

821
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: square stain two inches or not two inches two feet

822
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: above the floor, fourteen inches from the corner. That's the

823
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 2: one that I describe that does look like a contact transfer. Now,

824
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: oftentimes that type of contact transfer is like somebody has

825
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 2: a bleeding head injury and now the hair mass and

826
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: head you know, hit the wall at that location. The

827
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: photo isn't clear enough without me being able to zoom

828
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: in or having a batter photo, we could often see

829
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: the what we call hair wipe, you know, where you

830
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 2: actually see this, you know, the bloody strands of hair

831
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: or even hair being caught in the blood. Where I

832
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 2: could form a better opinion than I think it's it's

833
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 2: her head and she had a bleeding head injury. When

834
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: her head hit that part, it could be you know,

835
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 2: a blood stain off of her arm or you know,

836
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: leg pants, you know, whatever garment she had on. And

837
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: then sometimes you might be able to see some fabric

838
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 2: impressions to give you an idea of where how that

839
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 2: blood transferred, but I would right now my best guess

840
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: is is she's likely been forced down into this corner

841
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: and because you have you know, a blood pool with

842
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: a smearing in it on right on the floor, right

843
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: in the corner that's up onto that base board, so

844
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: she's I think she's laying in this corner with the

845
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: head in the corner. There is blood spatter that is

846
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: above that location. The photos don't give me enough information

847
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: as to the angularity of those blood drops. They look

848
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 2: like they're circular, but I would want to have better

849
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: photos to form an opinion as to where they're not.

850
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: Those blood drops could have been a result of let's say,

851
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: a blow while she's down on the ground, and the

852
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: blood spatter is kind of emanating up. It's very sparse,

853
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: so I don't want to overinterpret, but I think that

854
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 2: kind of the general thing I can say is it

855
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,240
Speaker 2: appears that there is some violence, likely a blow or something,

856
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 2: and Joan is being forced down onto the floor in

857
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 2: the corner of this kitchen, and she's bleeding at this location.

858
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: Now you do have the larger blood area in the

859
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: center of the kitchen. I don't think I can sequence

860
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 2: that as to what came first. But my sense is

861
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 2: because I'm trying to see if there's drag marks leading

862
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: out of that corner, and there might be the likely

863
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: scenario based on how I'm assessing this is, you know,

864
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: Joan is bleeding in the corner of that kitchen, near

865
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: the you know, where the telephone was, and then she

866
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: either moves herself or she's moved by an offender out

867
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: into the center of the kitchen where you have her

868
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 2: probably more stationary, and now some bleeding occurring there, and

869
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: there's some significant smears, you know, and it's just could

870
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: be like hands going through some of the blood pools,

871
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: you know. And then of course you have the paper

872
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: towel that's on top of it. And you know, is

873
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 2: that paper towel resulted an offender trying to clean up

874
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 2: afterwards or just cleaning him or herself up.

875
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And remember the author said that it was drawing paper,

876
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: not paper towels. But you could try to use drawing pap.

877
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you would use anything you possibly could the

878
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: clean up, right.

879
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: Okay, So maybe I misunderstood, So that roll is not

880
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 2: paper towels, that's actually the drawing paper.

881
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: It says it's drawing paper, the one that's like laying

882
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: kind of on top of the children's book.

883
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that would suggest because it's that's weird. I

884
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: can sequence it, and it is like, there's what appears

885
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: to be a torn, torn off piece of that paper

886
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 2: on top of where you have the larger blood pool

887
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: and the blood smearing in the center. That's likely, you know,

888
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: somebody trying to use this paper, you know, using it

889
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: to clean Yeah. I just I made the wrong assumption

890
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: that because it does look like my first glance like

891
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: a paper towel roll.

892
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: It does. No, It's okay, So we are in a

893
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: chaotic scene, and there are two pieces of information that

894
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: you need to know that you are not going to

895
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: be able to comment on until the next episode.

896
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 2: I'm on a roll here, how's that ting?

897
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 1: I know? Well, this is how we're going to see

898
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: what a professional you are if you can pick this

899
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: up seamlessly next week. Okay, here's the two pieces of information. One,

900
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 1: there's blood upstairs in Joan and Martin's bedroom. Two, there

901
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: is a trail of blood going to Jon's car, which

902
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: has not gone anywhere. So now we've got blood in

903
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: different directions. Also, Okay, and now I think you see

904
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: why this has been a mystery, and the next episode

905
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 1: will be a little more forensics, but a lot of

906
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: what happened to this woman and all all of the possibilities.

907
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: Okay, well, here with beta breath, Kate, I'll see you

908
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 2: next week. All right, sounds good? Take care.

909
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

910
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

911
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones Sources.

912
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

913
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

914
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

915
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

916
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,760
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

917
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

918
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

919
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

920
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

921
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

922
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

923
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

924
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.