WEBVTT - A Scapegoat 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.040 Do you think he's gonna pick up? I don't know, 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:23.160 I hope. So after leaving Ukraine, we felt like there 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.479 was one last person we still had to talk to, 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:30.320 Father Damien. We kept texting back and forth with Petro 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.200 after our interview with him and Father went and thought 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.960 maybe he could get us in touch with the priest 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:37.760 in North Carolina. But once we asked if he could 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:43.400 connect us, Petro stopped applying to our messages. So not 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.440 long after we found a phone number for Father Damien, 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.960 or at least when we thought was his. Your call 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.720 has been forwarded to an automated messaging system with no answer, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.920 we decided to try sending him a message, well, Father Damien, 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.600 my name is. We hoped knowing that talked to Father 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.800 Went and Petro would make him comfortable speaking with us. 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.720 We feel they would be unfair to finalize the theories 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.440 without your voice and your perspective and everything that happened. Okay, 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:18.120 So we just sent him the message, um, okay, oh 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:20.880 my god, and I have two blue checkmarks, so that 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.800 means that means you read it. He's reading it right now. 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:31.160 It says online, oh my god, I'm dying. Okay. Almost 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.319 a full day later, we got a response, thank you 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:36.600 for your offer, but I do not wish to participate 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.119 in your podcast. We sent a follow up, but as 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:47.559 of right now we still have not heard back. I'm 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:53.240 Paula Burrows and I'm Melanie Bartley, and this is sacred scandal. 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.720 He's in a difficult position. He's fairly intelligent, he can 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:08.000 somewhat manipulative. That's why I hesitate because I just didn't 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:14.200 see the level of detail. It just reeks power corrupts, 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.480 and I sensed that there was some corruption. I don't 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.079 know what the story is. I don't think anybody ever will. 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.360 When we got back from Ukraine, it felt like we 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.839 didn't get the definitive answers we were looking for. Our 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.600 conversation with Father went was strange, and at times he 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.080 felt so evasive, like when we asked if he thought 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.880 father Damien may have been abusing Mike, and his was 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.240 bonds was that he asked Mike, a teenager and the 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.240 potential victim, if his relationship with Damien was okay, but 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.560 Mike didn't bring up that he was being abused, or 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:12.800 how he asked Petro if he was the subject of 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:17.720 pedophile activity rather than just outright saying he never harmed anyone. 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.440 It was strange. In the end, we got answers but 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:27.600 not clear ones. Maybe he was doing his best to 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.760 both break the two decades of silence but still not 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.160 incriminate anyone, and were worried that maybe we didn't push 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.920 hard enough on those questions about sex abuse. When we 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.960 asked went about them sharing a bed, that was the 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.160 only moment of the night where I felt him getting 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:51.280 really upset. Yeah, when he basically said, let me ask 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.360 the question that you're trying to ask, and let me 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.600 ask him directly, were you ever a subject of pedophile activity? 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:04.080 And he says no, definitely, law his patience. Yeah, why though, 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:09.560 Like why why why was that so triggered? Like because 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.120 he's tired of being asked that question. You know, I'm 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.760 playing devil's advocate on both sides, babe, Like we have 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.960 to do that, and I think we have this entire time, 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.200 we have been more than generous. We've been so generated 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.000 totally have I'm concerned that people are gonna be mad 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.880 at us for being too nice to them. I'm terrified 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:35.599 that I'm going to sound like, you know, um, too agreeable. Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.359 but we've we've done that, We've definitely given the benefit 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:43.279 of the doubt. And did I ever expect that Father, 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:57.320 I was gonna say yes, no, no, no. Part of 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.159 what got us started on this project was feeling like 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.480 those abuse allegations were true, that there could be no 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.719 other way that Mike would have exploded in the way 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.440 that he did and murdered sister Michelle so brutally had 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:13.520 nothing else gone on. And we felt supported in feeling 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.200 that way. He passed a polygraph, and all the experts 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:19.479 and police and lawyers who we interviewed more than ten 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.440 years ago told us that they believed Mike was abused too. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.159 But this year something really rocked us when we went 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.880 back and talked to some of those same investigators again. 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.599 Assistant State Attorney gil Vine, who sided with the defense 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.600 on this issue and who Father went and Petro said 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.680 made their lives help by chasing those allegations, told us 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:46.240 she now doubted Mike's claims. I will also tell you 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.680 this that I think his statements, all of them black detail. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.479 When somebody's really a victim of a crime, they can 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.680 recount it with the detail that only they would know. 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.440 I would have been more convinced if the detail of 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:10.839 the sexual relationship was more explicit, a discussion of what 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.800 happened during the anal sex. I think that people will 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:20.800 actually sometimes not all the time. But if there was 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.120 no other physical evidence, if there was nothing, if there 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.520 was a level of detail lying on top of one another, 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:33.680 there's no discussion of anything graphic. That may be uncomfortable 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:39.799 for us to talk about. That's why I hesitate, because 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.520 I just didn't see the level of detail when I 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:44.680 walked out of that room. When I interviewed him with 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.680 the sexual batteries detectives there, I was like, there's no 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:49.560 level of detail, and there's like Gal, there's no level 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.159 of detail. We asked her what she meant by this, 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.679 and she said that basically, Mike described his own abuse 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.400 less clearly than victim's younger than him. She said that 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.120 he talked about sex almost like someone who had no 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:08.200 idea how it actually worked. If one of his biggest 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.360 supporters was doubting Mike, we now had no idea what 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.720 to believe. But our perspective changed again when we talked 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.120 to Melanie Dakota of the Survivor's Network of those abused 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:22.960 by priests. We heard from her in our episode about 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.520 the Orthodox Church in America. We told her about our 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.200 new doubts, and she gave us her own opinion of 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.640 Mike's allegations. I wanted to ask you, just from your 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:39.040 experience dealing with so many abuse survivors, what was your 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:45.200 um impression of k Fell and his experiences. We always 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:49.560 believed him. Yeah, they deposed him or whatever after he 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.680 had pled guilty, and he told as much as he 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.400 could remember about the abuse. I think if any of 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:00.320 those other boys had said, yes, this happened to me too, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.160 I think we would have had a whole different situation. 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.720 Is it common in your experience for the people surrounding 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.360 the victim know something or they have experienced the same thing, 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:16.800 but just deny it. Yes. I mean there's a couple 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.360 of reasons why that happens. There's something called trauma bonding, 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:26.120 where they feel obligated to protect their abuser. And not 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.480 all survivors remember their abuse. You know, some put it 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.160 into a little if you will, bull box at the 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.920 back of their head. And these guys are still, um, 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.920 what is cowful? Must be? What forty? I mean? You 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.840 know the average age for a survivor to come forward 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.960 is fifty two. So you may have that these guys 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.360 just haven't come forward yet. You also have sometimes you 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.600 have people who begin to identify with their abuser. As 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.840 a matter of fact, I think there's a study that's 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.480 us that one third of survivors will take their secret 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.080 to their grave. They will never tell another soul what 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.200 happened to them. So it is not unusual for people 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.040 to deny that they were abused, whether they either don't 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.280 remember they can't handle it, or whether they are bonded 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.760 to their abuser, or whether they identify with their abusers. 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.439 We started to wonder if this was the case for 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.520 Mike too, and that sent us on a mission. Last year. 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.800 We started having more serious conversations about his abuse. We 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.880 wanted to see if he was able to talk about 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.800 what happened in more detail than he did twenty years ago. 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.480 As he got more comfortable talking about it, he gave 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.920 us some very vivid descriptions of how he claimed to 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.480 be raped, and in more detailed than we read in 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:54.000 any of the police reports. But as we talked to him, 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.400 it also sounded like he started to remember other things 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.400 for the first time, too, like the names of porn 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.920 movies that he says he was made to watch on TV. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:12.240 There was a form. We also wondered if maybe any 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.160 of the former monastic candidates would be able to recall 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.439 anything differently as adults. We thought maybe now if they 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.560 were victims too, they might be willing to come forward. 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.640 We tracked down a few of the former monastic candidates, 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:29.959 and though we never heard back from most of them, 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.480 others said they wanted to remain private about their time 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:37.559 at Holy Cross. Only Elia Hertzock was willing to speak 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:41.439 with us, And though he said he was never abused 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.320 and never saw anything with his own eyes, he said 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.800 his adult perspective now allows him to see some of 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:52.400 his own experiences at the monastery differently in hindsight. He 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.280 told us how Mike's behavior after spending time alone with 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.600 Father Damien now felt strange. But there were other things 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:04.360 too well. The only weird thing that I remember about 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:09.439 me it was when I came there before going to school, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:17.320 I had to do some medical check. But the doctor 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.760 I was checking everything like I was making then, and 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:26.280 and Fatherland stayed in that room. He said that it's 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:31.720 normal for a priest for him for our to stay 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:36.400 when I was with a doctor it was weird. I 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:52.240 didn't like it, but I didn't have the choice. I don't. 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.560 I don't know how to conclude something that is just 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:04.720 so yh inconclusive, all the shades of gray. Yeah, you 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.560 believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe. Yeah, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.400 And I guess We'll let people believe what they believe, 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:17.520 and hopefully one day we'll get someone come on and say, hey, 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.080 this happened to me too, or or they're lying because 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.240 this is the evidence that Mike was lying, or or 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:30.920 something like that that will give us closure. But it's 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:47.920 been twenty years and that hasn't happened yet. So coming 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.480 up after a break, we get a new perspective on 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.840 why Mike may have gone after sister Michelle and not 0:12:54.000 --> 0:13:20.480 his alleged abusers. Stay with us, Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. Yeah. 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.440 I just think about it, and I'm not a killer. 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:26.120 I'm not. No ways, it's not me what happened. I 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:41.439 just can't I don't even remember. One of the questions 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.520 that has lingered long in our minds is this, If 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.280 Mike was being abused by the priests and most of 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.040 his trauma was coming from them, then why did he 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:55.240 murder sister Michelle Lewis, And of course we put this 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.720 question to him loads of times and his answer is 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:05.440 always the same. He's consistent, Just this rage feel like different, 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:12.000 Like I feel like I'm just I just snapped that, 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.880 I just I just met I snapped, he tells us. 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.120 He always says he just lost control and had no 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.040 idea what he was doing. But we wanted to know 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:27.080 if that's really a legitimate reason, like a certified clinical justification. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.520 So we reached out to Dr Carol Clark, a known 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.640 trauma therapist in Miami whose books I've seen around the city. 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.760 After reviewing the case with her, we got Dr Clark's thoughts. 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.400 The question that, like plagues everyone in this case is 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.200 why did he kill a sister, Michelle and not the 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:50.480 person who was allegedly abusing him. How common is it 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.120 for the abuse to take out their rage on someone else. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.760 So I'm gonna speak strictly in generalities, and what's typical 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:06.520 of course, Okay, So we have the person in power 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.760 would be the priest. The priest is the one that 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.280 has taken care of the boys, taking care of the hello, 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:18.600 and so that's the one that he's depending on. For survival. 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.960 So you can't piss off the person on whom your 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.320 survival depends. You can't attack them, you can't do anything, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.680 because then what happens, you know, once that person is 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.000 gone or that person turns against you. It does not 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:38.120 surprise me to hear a story where we have these 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.440 priests who are in control to have the power, are 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.080 doing the abuse. But then we have the victim looks 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.000 and says, who is supposed to be taking care of me? 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.040 And not who can I safely put my anger on? 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:59.280 And it would be you know, this woman, So that 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:06.080 would be my guess. We also reached out to the 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.920 psychologist who first worked with Mike after the murder to 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:15.640 get his perspective. Okay, my name's John Quintana. I have 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:21.920 a pH d in psychology from Brynmar College, is UM 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:26.480 their Department of Human Development. Dr Quintana was brought into 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:30.120 the case by Mike's defense attorney, Edith Georgie. I mean 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:34.360 my background is with criminal cases, I mean with the 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.160 federal buer prisons and all that, and also in the 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:45.160 background in sexual viximization and sexual predators or sexual offenders. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:50.080 I guess given that background, Edith felt that it would 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.000 be good for me to evaluate him and get a 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.120 sense of what was going on. He and I spoke 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.920 not long ago, and he said he did about four 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.320 days of psychology p testing with Mike after his confession. 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.600 He also interviewed him about his personal history. Dr Quintana 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.520 said Mike opened up to him about his father's drinking 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.440 and how his mom mostly accepted the abuse by her husband. 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:21.240 We also talked about Mike's allegations of sexual abuse. It 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.520 was your sense that he was being truthful and that 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.919 he had in fact been a victim of sexual abuse 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:30.639 on the face. Yes, in your experience, did you feel 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:37.000 like Mihilo's the way he described the abuse that he experienced, 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:39.800 did it check out? I mean, it wasn't detailed enough. 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.240 Did it seemed like he would be lying to kind 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.520 of justify what what he did? Well, Initially when I 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:53.120 interviewed him, the details weren't very specific, and I think 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.199 that that's where the point that he was at and 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:04.760 maybe comfort level of of being able to reveal things 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.480 that may have been difficult for him. So I got 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.639 a certain level of description of abuse, and so I 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:18.000 can understand if I don't get a full description or 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.000 full details initially in an evaluation, because that may not 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:27.680 always be forthcoming. But he seemed uh sincere in his presentation. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.920 Of course, as you look at the history of it 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:35.040 and you understand a little bit more of the case 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:40.479 and the detectives descriptions of him were that he could 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.119 look you in the eye and tell you he didn't 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:50.000 do it, because initially denied the allegations. He denied that 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:55.520 he killed just Michelle, but he did it in a 0:18:55.720 --> 0:19:01.480 very convincing way. But in reading that cryptions of the detectives, 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:06.360 it seemed that they weren't sure even though he had 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.919 scratches and other features, because he initially was very convincing. 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:17.200 So he may be convincing both ways. Okay, that's a 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:21.719 good point. He's in a difficult position. He's fairly intelligent, 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:31.040 he can be somewhat manipulative. After talking with Mike, Dr 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.920 Quintana was unclear about his motivation to murder sister Michelle, 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.040 But in looking at more of the evidence from that night, 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:43.520 the psychologist had a theory. He was angry and his 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:50.920 intent was initially because he did bring implements of violence 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:56.080 with him. He brought a knife, he brought a rod, 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:00.240 metal rod, but he also brought tape, and it was 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:04.159 one of those factors that somehow I didn't get checked 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:12.159 off clearly for me, what was the tape for in 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:18.000 his imagination or his fantasy of what he was about 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.080 to do. So that was something that's always been a 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:25.840 little disturbing to me. It's the whole issue of the tape. Yeah. 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.000 I think we've asked him that a couple of times 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.520 and he can't really explain it. He always goes back 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.800 to me, I was drunk. I wasn't making any sense. 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:42.520 I grabbed a glove and tape and everything, and I 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.040 don't know, I guess that's how that's how he justifies it. Yes, 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.480 but it's pretty specific. It's a tape. If I was 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.880 going to I guess in my my approach to attack somebody, 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.480 I'm not sure would bring tape if my intent was 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.000 to just hurt them and make them feel the pain 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:06.680 that I felt. And he may justify it or in 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.760 his own mind, well, it's I was drunk, So you know, 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:14.159 that's how he explains it. But that's, you know, to me, 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.119 from my point of view, it's not good enough. Yeah, 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.760 I mean to me, it sounds like you hear that 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.760 all the time, like crime shows, like people are saying 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.280 I snapped. That's just to me, it seems like a 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:35.199 cop out and such a unsatisfying answer. And maybe he 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.680 means that he became enraged and lost control. Maybe that's 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.600 what he means, but he needs to specify, he needs 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:45.439 to understand what it is that's going on in a 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.399 more detailed way than just I snapped. It's too easy, 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:54.080 too easy to explain it. Often it's unsatisfying. So I 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.680 think it's more defensive on his part and maybe a 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:03.480 sign that he may not be aching for responsibility as 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:09.159 someone who's also worked with perpetrators of sexual abuse. I 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:12.679 know you didn't interview the priests, but what's your overall 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:19.680 impression of them? So, um, there were seemed to me 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:28.400 unethical things going on. If what's being described as sleeping 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:30.760 in the same bed where whether or not there was 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:36.520 any sexual contact, that that's unethical. I mean, that's for 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.200 whatever reason, to save money or not save money, and 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.959 that's certainly not not unethical thing to do. The fact 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.840 that they went from one religion or one Catholic religion 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.720 to another Catholic religion and then now no Catholic religion 0:22:51.720 --> 0:23:00.639 where is their moral and ethical center? But they lacked supervision. 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.399 That's one of the reasons they had problems with the 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:07.840 bishops because they didn't want to be have oversight, and 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.560 they needed oversight. They need something to tell him no, no, 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:15.159 that that's wrong, you know. But he refused to have 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:18.960 anybody oversee him, and I think that was part of 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.959 his downfall. He has to take a look at the 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.600 decisions he made and how it led to where he's 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:34.600 at too. This is the biggest question of all and 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.520 for everybody. Why do you think he killed sister Michelle 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:44.400 and not his alleged abusers. Well, that is a big question. 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:48.920 I mean, so whatever I'm saying, it's all speculation. So 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:55.160 there are factors that if he was sexually molested, there 0:23:55.240 --> 0:24:00.440 is a large proportion of males that are victimized actually 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:06.120 that then become offenders themselves. So that the other issues 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:10.480 that kind of pop up in my imagination are issues 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:13.399 that have to do with he was And I remember 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.879 him telling me that he wanted to fit in. He 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:20.359 wanted to be a normal kid like the other people, 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:25.040 the other teenagers at the school. He wanted to have relationships, 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.520 he wanted to go to parties. He wanted to probably 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:31.960 engage in a sexual relationship. I mean, I know that 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:37.760 he tried to get girls numbers and that kind of stuff. 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:42.560 So it is possible that one of the underlying motivations 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:49.160 that he had was to have a sexual encounter. Now, 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:53.439 given the fact that his father was dominating to the 0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:58.439 mother and the mother acquiesced, or at least seemed to acquiesce, 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:03.000 according to him, to the abuse, he's getting a message 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:10.080 that one possibility is to dominate a female because he's 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:14.000 seen it happen. Whether or not that's something that played 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:17.480 in his mind, I don't know. But you have a 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:23.800 person who says he was sexually victimized, who then has 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:26.440 all these sexually as a teenager, he has all these hormones, 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:30.760 all these sexual needs going on, he can't relieve any 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:34.800 he can meet or satisfy any of the needs. And 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:37.600 then you add on top what he said that he 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:43.560 was being sexually molested. Um, so that certainly creates a 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:47.680 pressure cooker. But where does he get relief. Sister Michelle 0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:51.439 is the female, and apparently from what I read, she 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:55.359 wasn't She may not have seemed attractive, but she was 0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:59.159 an attractive lady. At some levels, and that may have 0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:04.320 something that he noticed. So that's where the tape, in 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:08.880 my mind could come in speculation, but mind mind could 0:26:08.960 --> 0:26:11.760 come in that it was a way to try to 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:16.840 immobilize her, and who knows, maybe having some kind of 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:21.320 sexual relation with her. The difference of where the violence 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:24.879 comes in is that sister Michelle was not his mother, 0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:31.480 and she was apparently relentless in warding him off and 0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:36.280 stopping him, and that every time that she fought him, 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:40.480 apparently he heard her. He stabbed her, he hit her 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:44.240 to try to immobilize her, but he never was able 0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:49.960 to until she died. So that's a scenario that is 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:56.040 possible given some of the factors given. But who knows. 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:58.640 He would never admit to that. I mean, I've asked 0:26:58.720 --> 0:27:01.800 him before and would be very hard for him in 0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:06.879 his mind that would make it even harder to accept 0:27:06.920 --> 0:27:14.920 and live with. I also feel like it's I also 0:27:14.960 --> 0:27:19.680 late a lot between like believing him and not believing him, 0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:24.920 because he does seem like a little manipulative at times. 0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:26.679 And my partner and I have been working on this 0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:31.560 for fifteen years and and we talked to him a lot, 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:34.200 and we've visited him and We're the only people who 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:38.560 visited him ever in prison, and so we're like, what 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:40.920 if he's just been lying to us this whole time? 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:45.560 And at first we just totally believed him. We never 0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:48.399 even doubted it. And then when we started talking to 0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:50.920 more people and having interviews like the one we're having 0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:54.680 now and with the prosecutor and people who have very 0:27:54.720 --> 0:28:00.000 different opinions, We're like, what what if this whole time 0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:03.520 at least just been manipulating us into telling his story 0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:06.760 a certain way when it's it's not true, but once 0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:10.879 again and made not just manipulating but also convincing himself, 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:15.479 because I think that if he had to face a 0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:20.240 different reality that would be could be pretty devastating to him, 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:24.479 especially without support, without therapy. In other words, I wouldn't 0:28:24.520 --> 0:28:30.080 take it totally personally because he I think he needs 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:33.800 the story he's telling you. He needs it for himself. 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:49.520 I mean, that is a crazy, crazy theory. Um. I 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:53.160 honestly didn't even consider that theory until John Quintana said 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:56.240 it that way. To me. I was like, wait, it 0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:59.920 makes more sense than him just snapping, And it's the 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:02.320 only thing that he would be embarrassed to admit that 0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:06.040 he would take to the grave. Yeah, and just me 0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:08.600 thinking just from like the sort of closeness that we 0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:10.600 have of all these years with Mike, and the trust 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:12.960 and how much trust he's put in us to do 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:17.720 this project. The enormous guilt that I feel even saying 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:21.000 that theory for me, I think for you, because we've 0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:25.000 talked about it, We've cried about it. Guilt about all 0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:28.160 of this, guilt, doubting me, Halo guilt, believing the priest, 0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:33.440 doubting the priest, like, you know me, seriously, if I 0:29:33.480 --> 0:29:36.280 put out this theory out here like that he might 0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:39.000 have wanted to rape sister Michelle, like and me thinking 0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:41.840 Mike might hear this one day that I think this 0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:47.080 might be a possibility that destroys me you know me too. 0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:51.440 This kind of goes back to what we always say 0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:57.200 is that we have become really good at compartmentalizing Mike, 0:29:57.280 --> 0:30:02.480 our friend, and then Mike the killer. Yeah, two different people. Mike, 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:04.920