1 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: Do you think he's gonna pick up? I don't know, 2 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: I hope. So after leaving Ukraine, we felt like there 3 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: was one last person we still had to talk to, 4 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: Father Damien. We kept texting back and forth with Petro 5 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: after our interview with him and Father went and thought 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: maybe he could get us in touch with the priest 7 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: in North Carolina. But once we asked if he could 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: connect us, Petro stopped applying to our messages. So not 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: long after we found a phone number for Father Damien, 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: or at least when we thought was his. Your call 11 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: has been forwarded to an automated messaging system with no answer, 12 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: we decided to try sending him a message, well, Father Damien, 13 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: my name is. We hoped knowing that talked to Father 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Went and Petro would make him comfortable speaking with us. 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: We feel they would be unfair to finalize the theories 16 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: without your voice and your perspective and everything that happened. Okay, 17 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: So we just sent him the message, um, okay, oh 18 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: my god, and I have two blue checkmarks, so that 19 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: means that means you read it. He's reading it right now. 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: It says online, oh my god, I'm dying. Okay. Almost 21 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: a full day later, we got a response, thank you 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: for your offer, but I do not wish to participate 23 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: in your podcast. We sent a follow up, but as 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: of right now we still have not heard back. I'm 25 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: Paula Burrows and I'm Melanie Bartley, and this is sacred scandal. 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: He's in a difficult position. He's fairly intelligent, he can 27 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: somewhat manipulative. That's why I hesitate because I just didn't 28 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: see the level of detail. It just reeks power corrupts, 29 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: and I sensed that there was some corruption. I don't 30 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: know what the story is. I don't think anybody ever will. 31 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: When we got back from Ukraine, it felt like we 32 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 1: didn't get the definitive answers we were looking for. Our 33 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: conversation with Father went was strange, and at times he 34 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: felt so evasive, like when we asked if he thought 35 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: father Damien may have been abusing Mike, and his was 36 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: bonds was that he asked Mike, a teenager and the 37 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: potential victim, if his relationship with Damien was okay, but 38 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: Mike didn't bring up that he was being abused, or 39 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: how he asked Petro if he was the subject of 40 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: pedophile activity rather than just outright saying he never harmed anyone. 41 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: It was strange. In the end, we got answers but 42 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: not clear ones. Maybe he was doing his best to 43 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: both break the two decades of silence but still not 44 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: incriminate anyone, and were worried that maybe we didn't push 45 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: hard enough on those questions about sex abuse. When we 46 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: asked went about them sharing a bed, that was the 47 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: only moment of the night where I felt him getting 48 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: really upset. Yeah, when he basically said, let me ask 49 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: the question that you're trying to ask, and let me 50 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: ask him directly, were you ever a subject of pedophile activity? 51 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: And he says no, definitely, law his patience. Yeah, why though, 52 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: Like why why why was that so triggered? Like because 53 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: he's tired of being asked that question. You know, I'm 54 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: playing devil's advocate on both sides, babe, Like we have 55 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: to do that, and I think we have this entire time, 56 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: we have been more than generous. We've been so generated 57 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: totally have I'm concerned that people are gonna be mad 58 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: at us for being too nice to them. I'm terrified 59 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: that I'm going to sound like, you know, um, too agreeable. Yeah. Yeah, 60 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: but we've we've done that, We've definitely given the benefit 61 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: of the doubt. And did I ever expect that Father, 62 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: I was gonna say yes, no, no, no. Part of 63 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: what got us started on this project was feeling like 64 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: those abuse allegations were true, that there could be no 65 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: other way that Mike would have exploded in the way 66 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: that he did and murdered sister Michelle so brutally had 67 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: nothing else gone on. And we felt supported in feeling 68 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: that way. He passed a polygraph, and all the experts 69 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: and police and lawyers who we interviewed more than ten 70 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: years ago told us that they believed Mike was abused too. 71 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: But this year something really rocked us when we went 72 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: back and talked to some of those same investigators again. 73 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: Assistant State Attorney gil Vine, who sided with the defense 74 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: on this issue and who Father went and Petro said 75 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: made their lives help by chasing those allegations, told us 76 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: she now doubted Mike's claims. I will also tell you 77 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: this that I think his statements, all of them black detail. 78 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: When somebody's really a victim of a crime, they can 79 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: recount it with the detail that only they would know. 80 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: I would have been more convinced if the detail of 81 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: the sexual relationship was more explicit, a discussion of what 82 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: happened during the anal sex. I think that people will 83 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: actually sometimes not all the time. But if there was 84 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: no other physical evidence, if there was nothing, if there 85 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: was a level of detail lying on top of one another, 86 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: there's no discussion of anything graphic. That may be uncomfortable 87 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: for us to talk about. That's why I hesitate, because 88 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: I just didn't see the level of detail when I 89 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: walked out of that room. When I interviewed him with 90 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: the sexual batteries detectives there, I was like, there's no 91 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: level of detail, and there's like Gal, there's no level 92 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: of detail. We asked her what she meant by this, 93 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 1: and she said that basically, Mike described his own abuse 94 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: less clearly than victim's younger than him. She said that 95 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: he talked about sex almost like someone who had no 96 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: idea how it actually worked. If one of his biggest 97 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: supporters was doubting Mike, we now had no idea what 98 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: to believe. But our perspective changed again when we talked 99 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: to Melanie Dakota of the Survivor's Network of those abused 100 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: by priests. We heard from her in our episode about 101 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: the Orthodox Church in America. We told her about our 102 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: new doubts, and she gave us her own opinion of 103 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: Mike's allegations. I wanted to ask you, just from your 104 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: experience dealing with so many abuse survivors, what was your 105 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: um impression of k Fell and his experiences. We always 106 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: believed him. Yeah, they deposed him or whatever after he 107 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: had pled guilty, and he told as much as he 108 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: could remember about the abuse. I think if any of 109 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: those other boys had said, yes, this happened to me too, 110 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: I think we would have had a whole different situation. 111 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: Is it common in your experience for the people surrounding 112 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: the victim know something or they have experienced the same thing, 113 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: but just deny it. Yes. I mean there's a couple 114 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: of reasons why that happens. There's something called trauma bonding, 115 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: where they feel obligated to protect their abuser. And not 116 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: all survivors remember their abuse. You know, some put it 117 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: into a little if you will, bull box at the 118 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: back of their head. And these guys are still, um, 119 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: what is cowful? Must be? What forty? I mean? You 120 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: know the average age for a survivor to come forward 121 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: is fifty two. So you may have that these guys 122 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: just haven't come forward yet. You also have sometimes you 123 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: have people who begin to identify with their abuser. As 124 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I think there's a study that's 125 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: us that one third of survivors will take their secret 126 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: to their grave. They will never tell another soul what 127 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: happened to them. So it is not unusual for people 128 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: to deny that they were abused, whether they either don't 129 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: remember they can't handle it, or whether they are bonded 130 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: to their abuser, or whether they identify with their abusers. 131 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: We started to wonder if this was the case for 132 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: Mike too, and that sent us on a mission. Last year. 133 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: We started having more serious conversations about his abuse. We 134 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: wanted to see if he was able to talk about 135 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: what happened in more detail than he did twenty years ago. 136 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: As he got more comfortable talking about it, he gave 137 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: us some very vivid descriptions of how he claimed to 138 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: be raped, and in more detailed than we read in 139 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: any of the police reports. But as we talked to him, 140 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: it also sounded like he started to remember other things 141 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: for the first time, too, like the names of porn 142 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: movies that he says he was made to watch on TV. 143 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: There was a form. We also wondered if maybe any 144 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: of the former monastic candidates would be able to recall 145 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: anything differently as adults. We thought maybe now if they 146 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: were victims too, they might be willing to come forward. 147 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: We tracked down a few of the former monastic candidates, 148 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: and though we never heard back from most of them, 149 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: others said they wanted to remain private about their time 150 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: at Holy Cross. Only Elia Hertzock was willing to speak 151 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: with us, And though he said he was never abused 152 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: and never saw anything with his own eyes, he said 153 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: his adult perspective now allows him to see some of 154 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: his own experiences at the monastery differently in hindsight. He 155 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: told us how Mike's behavior after spending time alone with 156 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: Father Damien now felt strange. But there were other things 157 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: too well. The only weird thing that I remember about 158 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: me it was when I came there before going to school, 159 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: I had to do some medical check. But the doctor 160 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: I was checking everything like I was making then, and 161 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: and Fatherland stayed in that room. He said that it's 162 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: normal for a priest for him for our to stay 163 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: when I was with a doctor it was weird. I 164 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: didn't like it, but I didn't have the choice. I don't. 165 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: I don't know how to conclude something that is just 166 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: so yh inconclusive, all the shades of gray. Yeah, you 167 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe. Yeah, 168 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: And I guess We'll let people believe what they believe, 169 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: and hopefully one day we'll get someone come on and say, hey, 170 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: this happened to me too, or or they're lying because 171 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: this is the evidence that Mike was lying, or or 172 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: something like that that will give us closure. But it's 173 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: been twenty years and that hasn't happened yet. So coming 174 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: up after a break, we get a new perspective on 175 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: why Mike may have gone after sister Michelle and not 176 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: his alleged abusers. Stay with us, Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. Yeah. 177 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: I just think about it, and I'm not a killer. 178 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: I'm not. No ways, it's not me what happened. I 179 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: just can't I don't even remember. One of the questions 180 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: that has lingered long in our minds is this, If 181 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: Mike was being abused by the priests and most of 182 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: his trauma was coming from them, then why did he 183 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: murder sister Michelle Lewis, And of course we put this 184 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: question to him loads of times and his answer is 185 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: always the same. He's consistent, Just this rage feel like different, 186 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: Like I feel like I'm just I just snapped that, 187 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: I just I just met I snapped, he tells us. 188 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: He always says he just lost control and had no 189 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: idea what he was doing. But we wanted to know 190 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: if that's really a legitimate reason, like a certified clinical justification. 191 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: So we reached out to Dr Carol Clark, a known 192 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: trauma therapist in Miami whose books I've seen around the city. 193 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: After reviewing the case with her, we got Dr Clark's thoughts. 194 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: The question that, like plagues everyone in this case is 195 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: why did he kill a sister, Michelle and not the 196 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: person who was allegedly abusing him. How common is it 197 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: for the abuse to take out their rage on someone else. 198 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna speak strictly in generalities, and what's typical 199 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: of course, Okay, So we have the person in power 200 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: would be the priest. The priest is the one that 201 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: has taken care of the boys, taking care of the hello, 202 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: and so that's the one that he's depending on. For survival. 203 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: So you can't piss off the person on whom your 204 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: survival depends. You can't attack them, you can't do anything, 205 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: because then what happens, you know, once that person is 206 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: gone or that person turns against you. It does not 207 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: surprise me to hear a story where we have these 208 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: priests who are in control to have the power, are 209 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: doing the abuse. But then we have the victim looks 210 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: and says, who is supposed to be taking care of me? 211 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: And not who can I safely put my anger on? 212 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: And it would be you know, this woman, So that 213 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: would be my guess. We also reached out to the 214 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: psychologist who first worked with Mike after the murder to 215 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: get his perspective. Okay, my name's John Quintana. I have 216 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: a pH d in psychology from Brynmar College, is UM 217 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: their Department of Human Development. Dr Quintana was brought into 218 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: the case by Mike's defense attorney, Edith Georgie. I mean 219 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: my background is with criminal cases, I mean with the 220 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: federal buer prisons and all that, and also in the 221 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: background in sexual viximization and sexual predators or sexual offenders. 222 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: I guess given that background, Edith felt that it would 223 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: be good for me to evaluate him and get a 224 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: sense of what was going on. He and I spoke 225 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: not long ago, and he said he did about four 226 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: days of psychology p testing with Mike after his confession. 227 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: He also interviewed him about his personal history. Dr Quintana 228 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: said Mike opened up to him about his father's drinking 229 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: and how his mom mostly accepted the abuse by her husband. 230 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: We also talked about Mike's allegations of sexual abuse. It 231 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: was your sense that he was being truthful and that 232 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: he had in fact been a victim of sexual abuse 233 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: on the face. Yes, in your experience, did you feel 234 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: like Mihilo's the way he described the abuse that he experienced, 235 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: did it check out? I mean, it wasn't detailed enough. 236 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: Did it seemed like he would be lying to kind 237 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: of justify what what he did? Well, Initially when I 238 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: interviewed him, the details weren't very specific, and I think 239 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: that that's where the point that he was at and 240 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: maybe comfort level of of being able to reveal things 241 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: that may have been difficult for him. So I got 242 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: a certain level of description of abuse, and so I 243 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: can understand if I don't get a full description or 244 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: full details initially in an evaluation, because that may not 245 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: always be forthcoming. But he seemed uh sincere in his presentation. 246 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: Of course, as you look at the history of it 247 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: and you understand a little bit more of the case 248 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: and the detectives descriptions of him were that he could 249 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: look you in the eye and tell you he didn't 250 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: do it, because initially denied the allegations. He denied that 251 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: he killed just Michelle, but he did it in a 252 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: very convincing way. But in reading that cryptions of the detectives, 253 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: it seemed that they weren't sure even though he had 254 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: scratches and other features, because he initially was very convincing. 255 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: So he may be convincing both ways. Okay, that's a 256 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 1: good point. He's in a difficult position. He's fairly intelligent, 257 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: he can be somewhat manipulative. After talking with Mike, Dr 258 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: Quintana was unclear about his motivation to murder sister Michelle, 259 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: But in looking at more of the evidence from that night, 260 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: the psychologist had a theory. He was angry and his 261 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: intent was initially because he did bring implements of violence 262 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: with him. He brought a knife, he brought a rod, 263 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: metal rod, but he also brought tape, and it was 264 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: one of those factors that somehow I didn't get checked 265 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: off clearly for me, what was the tape for in 266 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: his imagination or his fantasy of what he was about 267 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: to do. So that was something that's always been a 268 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: little disturbing to me. It's the whole issue of the tape. Yeah. 269 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: I think we've asked him that a couple of times 270 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: and he can't really explain it. He always goes back 271 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: to me, I was drunk. I wasn't making any sense. 272 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: I grabbed a glove and tape and everything, and I 273 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: don't know, I guess that's how that's how he justifies it. Yes, 274 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: but it's pretty specific. It's a tape. If I was 275 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: going to I guess in my my approach to attack somebody, 276 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: I'm not sure would bring tape if my intent was 277 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: to just hurt them and make them feel the pain 278 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: that I felt. And he may justify it or in 279 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: his own mind, well, it's I was drunk, So you know, 280 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: that's how he explains it. But that's, you know, to me, 281 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: from my point of view, it's not good enough. Yeah, 282 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: I mean to me, it sounds like you hear that 283 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: all the time, like crime shows, like people are saying 284 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: I snapped. That's just to me, it seems like a 285 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: cop out and such a unsatisfying answer. And maybe he 286 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: means that he became enraged and lost control. Maybe that's 287 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: what he means, but he needs to specify, he needs 288 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: to understand what it is that's going on in a 289 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: more detailed way than just I snapped. It's too easy, 290 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: too easy to explain it. Often it's unsatisfying. So I 291 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: think it's more defensive on his part and maybe a 292 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: sign that he may not be aching for responsibility as 293 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: someone who's also worked with perpetrators of sexual abuse. I 294 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: know you didn't interview the priests, but what's your overall 295 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: impression of them? So, um, there were seemed to me 296 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: unethical things going on. If what's being described as sleeping 297 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: in the same bed where whether or not there was 298 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: any sexual contact, that that's unethical. I mean, that's for 299 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: whatever reason, to save money or not save money, and 300 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: that's certainly not not unethical thing to do. The fact 301 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: that they went from one religion or one Catholic religion 302 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: to another Catholic religion and then now no Catholic religion 303 00:22:51,720 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: where is their moral and ethical center? But they lacked supervision. 304 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons they had problems with the 305 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: bishops because they didn't want to be have oversight, and 306 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: they needed oversight. They need something to tell him no, no, 307 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: that that's wrong, you know. But he refused to have 308 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: anybody oversee him, and I think that was part of 309 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 1: his downfall. He has to take a look at the 310 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: decisions he made and how it led to where he's 311 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: at too. This is the biggest question of all and 312 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: for everybody. Why do you think he killed sister Michelle 313 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: and not his alleged abusers. Well, that is a big question. 314 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: I mean, so whatever I'm saying, it's all speculation. So 315 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: there are factors that if he was sexually molested, there 316 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: is a large proportion of males that are victimized actually 317 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: that then become offenders themselves. So that the other issues 318 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: that kind of pop up in my imagination are issues 319 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: that have to do with he was And I remember 320 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: him telling me that he wanted to fit in. He 321 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: wanted to be a normal kid like the other people, 322 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: the other teenagers at the school. He wanted to have relationships, 323 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: he wanted to go to parties. He wanted to probably 324 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: engage in a sexual relationship. I mean, I know that 325 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: he tried to get girls numbers and that kind of stuff. 326 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: So it is possible that one of the underlying motivations 327 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: that he had was to have a sexual encounter. Now, 328 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: given the fact that his father was dominating to the 329 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: mother and the mother acquiesced, or at least seemed to acquiesce, 330 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: according to him, to the abuse, he's getting a message 331 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: that one possibility is to dominate a female because he's 332 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: seen it happen. Whether or not that's something that played 333 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: in his mind, I don't know. But you have a 334 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: person who says he was sexually victimized, who then has 335 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: all these sexually as a teenager, he has all these hormones, 336 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: all these sexual needs going on, he can't relieve any 337 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: he can meet or satisfy any of the needs. And 338 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: then you add on top what he said that he 339 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: was being sexually molested. Um, so that certainly creates a 340 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: pressure cooker. But where does he get relief. Sister Michelle 341 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: is the female, and apparently from what I read, she 342 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: wasn't She may not have seemed attractive, but she was 343 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: an attractive lady. At some levels, and that may have 344 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: something that he noticed. So that's where the tape, in 345 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: my mind could come in speculation, but mind mind could 346 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: come in that it was a way to try to 347 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: immobilize her, and who knows, maybe having some kind of 348 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: sexual relation with her. The difference of where the violence 349 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: comes in is that sister Michelle was not his mother, 350 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: and she was apparently relentless in warding him off and 351 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: stopping him, and that every time that she fought him, 352 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: apparently he heard her. He stabbed her, he hit her 353 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: to try to immobilize her, but he never was able 354 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: to until she died. So that's a scenario that is 355 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: possible given some of the factors given. But who knows. 356 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: He would never admit to that. I mean, I've asked 357 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: him before and would be very hard for him in 358 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: his mind that would make it even harder to accept 359 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: and live with. I also feel like it's I also 360 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: late a lot between like believing him and not believing him, 361 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: because he does seem like a little manipulative at times. 362 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: And my partner and I have been working on this 363 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: for fifteen years and and we talked to him a lot, 364 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: and we've visited him and We're the only people who 365 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: visited him ever in prison, and so we're like, what 366 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: if he's just been lying to us this whole time? 367 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: And at first we just totally believed him. We never 368 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: even doubted it. And then when we started talking to 369 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: more people and having interviews like the one we're having 370 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: now and with the prosecutor and people who have very 371 00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: different opinions, We're like, what what if this whole time 372 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: at least just been manipulating us into telling his story 373 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: a certain way when it's it's not true, but once 374 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: again and made not just manipulating but also convincing himself, 375 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 1: because I think that if he had to face a 376 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: different reality that would be could be pretty devastating to him, 377 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 1: especially without support, without therapy. In other words, I wouldn't 378 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: take it totally personally because he I think he needs 379 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: the story he's telling you. He needs it for himself. 380 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that is a crazy, crazy theory. Um. I 381 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: honestly didn't even consider that theory until John Quintana said 382 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: it that way. To me. I was like, wait, it 383 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: makes more sense than him just snapping, And it's the 384 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: only thing that he would be embarrassed to admit that 385 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: he would take to the grave. Yeah, and just me 386 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: thinking just from like the sort of closeness that we 387 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: have of all these years with Mike, and the trust 388 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: and how much trust he's put in us to do 389 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: this project. The enormous guilt that I feel even saying 390 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: that theory for me, I think for you, because we've 391 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: talked about it, We've cried about it. Guilt about all 392 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: of this, guilt, doubting me, Halo guilt, believing the priest, 393 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: doubting the priest, like, you know me, seriously, if I 394 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: put out this theory out here like that he might 395 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: have wanted to rape sister Michelle, like and me thinking 396 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: Mike might hear this one day that I think this 397 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: might be a possibility that destroys me you know me too. 398 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: This kind of goes back to what we always say 399 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: is that we have become really good at compartmentalizing Mike, 400 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: our friend, and then Mike the killer. Yeah, two different people. Mike, 401 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: Mike the guy who calls us every other day, who 402 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: we joke with, who we met his parents and we 403 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: were worry about his safety with everything he needs he 404 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: writes joke, I don't know, like that guy and the 405 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: guy who we remember did what he did when we 406 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: look at the photos, and that's the only time that 407 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: it kind of like blends together and we like stop. 408 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: When I look at the cram scene photos, I can't 409 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: even pick up his phone calls for a few days. 410 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: I can't just know. I mean, I wish I had 411 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: a beautiful package dancer at the end of this. They're 412 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: beautifully for me. And you know, even after talking I 413 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: went for three hours, we still don't know. I have 414 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: to come to terms with the fact that this podcast 415 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: might rap, and we believe our listeners feeling exactly the 416 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: same way that we you have been feeling, because we're 417 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: not going to get that confirmation, right. So unless someone 418 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: comes out and says I was abused by these people 419 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: or I saw it happen, that we're never going to 420 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: get corroboration and we're never going to get our nice 421 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: little bow at the end of the story. Yeah, or 422 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: unless Mike says, hey, guys, like I was lying. It's 423 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: how I justified dabbing sister Rochelle. I had to justify 424 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: it somehow. Maybe what Mike is saying isn't true. Let's 425 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: put ourselves in that situation that Mike is totally lying 426 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: to us about the sex abuse. Right, how do you 427 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: justify a fifty something, you old man sharing a bed 428 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: with a teenage boy? Why would this older man share 429 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: a bed with a boy. And there's no way in 430 00:31:53,320 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: my mind that I can justify that. After a break 431 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: an old friend has a different take on Sister Michelle's murder. 432 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: We'll be right back, Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. I'm 433 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley. Aside from the guilt 434 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: we felt over believing Mike, there's another aspect of telling 435 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: this story that's weighed on us all these years. I 436 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: also feel guilty towards Sister Michelle and like us befriending 437 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: this guy who did this to her. Absolutely, this woman, 438 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: this poor thing on your old woman who's just a 439 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: an innocent person who has brutally stobbed multiple times, Just 440 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: like can you imagine I imagine the fear. This is 441 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: gonna sound really stupid. But the other day I cut 442 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: my finger and I was bleeding and it really hurt. 443 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: And then I thought of Sister Michelle, and I was like, 444 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: can you imagine being cut like that? Stopped deeply? Like 445 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: nineties something times? You look this person in the eye, 446 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: who you know, who you've known for years, and they're 447 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: the ones who are killing you. Can you imagine that 448 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: horrible way to die? I just I can't. I I 449 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: feel tremendous gilled for even helping this guy out or 450 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: talk of picking up his phone calls. Sister Michelle's death 451 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: sometimes felt overshadowed by everything else that started to come 452 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: out of Holy Cross almost immediately after she died. Unlike 453 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: the priest from Holy Cross, her silence all these years 454 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: was not a choice. We wanted to know more about 455 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: her than what Mike told us, and also more about 456 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: what she was like before she came to Holy Cross. 457 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: We reached out to her family, but they didn't get 458 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: back to us, and we get why they may not 459 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: want to be involved. But Melanie and I were able 460 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 1: to get in touch with one of Sister Michelle's oldest friends. 461 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 1: My name is Beverly Fraser, and I grew up down 462 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: the street from Shelly and her family. I would have 463 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: considered her my best friend growing up, and Shelly, that's 464 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: what you guys would call her, Shelly. I would call 465 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: her Shelly. Yes, you call her sister Michelle. I always 466 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: knew her as Shelly. Beverly and Shelly grew up together 467 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: in Ohio. They were a year or two a part 468 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: in age, but close. Beverly says she hung around the 469 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: Lewis's house enough that growing up she felt like Shelly's 470 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: mom was her own. She and Shelly would sit around 471 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: and listen to baseball games together on the radio and 472 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: talked about life and religio. And Shelley was talented. She 473 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: loved ice skating. Ice skating was her winter Olympic sport, 474 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: but gymnastic was her summer Olympic sport. So we would 475 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: watch gymnastics and ice skating and we would talk and walk. 476 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: And she had beautiful fingers, she had long eyelashes. She 477 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: took care of herself. She was a thinker. She was 478 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: probably the most intelligent person that I knew, I have 479 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: ever known. She was the valedictorian of her class. When 480 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: Michelle got married, Beverly was in the wedding. They chose 481 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: the fabric and sold all the bright smaid's dresses together. 482 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: She liked silver, she liked bright colors. And there was 483 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: fat and there was purple, and I mean, you know 484 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: that all mattered. And when the marriage started to come 485 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: and done. After Michelle moved to Miami, Beverly says the 486 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: two of them talked through the divorce together. They came 487 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: from different religions, Michelle Catholic and Beverly Protestant, but both 488 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: shared a strong commitment to their faith. So were you 489 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: surprised when she said, Beverly, I want to become a nun. 490 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: To be honest with your note, she was very grounded. 491 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: That's where she found hope. Again. I understand I'm Protestant. 492 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: That's not something that I would necessarily choose, but there 493 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: is a rhythm to that life that I could understand, 494 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: Shelly desiring. After Shelley became sister, Michelle, Beverly says, the 495 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: pair saw even less of one another after joining Holy Cross. 496 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: She told us the nun only came back to Ohio 497 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: maybe twice in a handful of years, and when she 498 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: did return, it was Michelle's appearance that struck her the most. 499 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: I remember the thick leather belt and the heavy habit, 500 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: and um, she was wearing her glasses at the time, 501 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: and Shelley work on text. I mean from sometime just 502 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: after high school through most of her adult life that 503 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: I knew her. She wore contexts and do you remember 504 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: how she would describe her life? There? Was she happy? 505 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: That she sound happy to you. I think she had 506 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: found some sort of contentment, which is what you want 507 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: for your friends. I mean, you don't get to choose 508 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: the road that they travel, right, you walk alongside of them. 509 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: And I think she had found again I'm going to 510 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: use the word rhythm, but I think she had found 511 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: a place where she where she was. I don't think 512 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: it was everything she wanted it to be. It was 513 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 1: her path. She was serving in a manner in which 514 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: she felt she was called to serve. I do believe 515 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: that I'm gonna ask you a question because it's something 516 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: that it just repeats over and over in my head 517 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: and it doesn't really fit. But Misha says that sister 518 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: Michelle would call the candidates names and one time, you know, 519 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: a couple of times called him Ukrainian trash for example. 520 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: I want to know if you find that that that's 521 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: something that would be characteristic of her or not that 522 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: is totally out of character for her. I can't imagine. 523 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: I can't imagine her saying that Shell went to an 524 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: inner city school. She was probably for the eighties the 525 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: late seventies and early eighties. She was extremely progressive, extremely progressive. 526 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: She didn't stay in a safe space to get her education. 527 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 1: So for that to be said, I it just doesn't 528 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: sound like her to be. That's not who I knew. 529 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: So I want to know, Oh, if you have any feelings, 530 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: particularly towards Father went or anyone from Holy Cross. I 531 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: had varios dumb feelings about them. I I don't know, 532 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: and I find it very disturbing. Again, this is something 533 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: that was done. It just reeks. It just reeks. Power corrupts, 534 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: and I sensed that there was some corruption. I believe 535 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 1: that Shelley was a sacrifice and they let her be. 536 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: They allowed her, if you can imagine, they allowed her 537 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: to be the scapegoat for what their dreams were, and 538 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: they did nothing to protect her. When you say that 539 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: she was a scapegoat, what do you mean. I think 540 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:53,720 Speaker 1: that hurting individual needed to hurt somebody else. He couldn't 541 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: hurt those that were hurting him, and he thought the 542 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: next best thing. And that's really what a scapegoat was. 543 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: A scapegoat was Biblically, what happened was a goat was 544 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: brought in and all of the sins of the people 545 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: were laid upon that goat, and that goat was sacrificed 546 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: and removed from the community and taken out so that 547 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: the people could be washed clean. That's what a scapegoat is. 548 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: And for me, in my humble opinion, Shelley was the 549 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: scapegoat for me, he needed to be cleansed in some way, 550 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: and all of the circumstances led him to her. Do you, 551 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,760 Speaker 1: in your heart believe that may have been abused sexually 552 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: by priest? Of course I do. I don't know what 553 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: the truth is. But I'm also looking at it with 554 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: a set of eyes that says that these men have 555 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: not necessarily come out and given their side of the 556 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: story either. And I see a lot of secrecy, a 557 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: lot of I mean again, I see it as a 558 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: power thing. I don't it. I don't know, I don't 559 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: understand that. I find no justice in it. What if 560 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: I said that I left it at that, You know, 561 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: I wish I could say my life for hers, and 562 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: I still feel die over day, And of course I 563 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: wish the priest was admit what he did. I was 564 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: to say what it did to me to us in 565 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: about five years, depending on good behavior, Mehilakfel will be 566 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: released from prison after serving about of his sentence. From there, 567 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: the forty something year old will go into ice custody 568 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,760 Speaker 1: and then we put on a plane and never allowed 569 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 1: to enter the US again. Most likely he'll fly to Kiev, 570 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: Ukraine's capital. After that he'll make his way about three 571 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: and fifty miles to his parents village and pick up 572 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 1: his life as he left it when he was fourteen 573 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: years old. We worry about Mike adapting to life outside 574 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 1: of prison. He has never really had to take care 575 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: of himself at all. He went sharing a bed with 576 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: his parents, to living in a monastery, to prison, and 577 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: we wonder what his expectations are once he gets back 578 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: to Ukraine. What are your fantasies like, what do you 579 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: fantasize about life after prison? Yeah? Of course, just just 580 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: having regular normal life, you know, just because having a 581 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: girlfriends it was just a general thing, a lot of things. 582 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: It's gonna be so damn quiet, especially my talent in 583 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,319 Speaker 1: your house, in your own room, just really quiet. It's 584 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: something really Hillians because it's especially right now, you know, 585 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,240 Speaker 1: in open day, which is just you have no privas whatsoever. 586 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: It's always loud in prison, yes, yeah, privacy and just 587 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: being on room is like man, yes, so yeah, of 588 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: course it's ably weird. Just you know, of course just 589 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 1: walking outside. Man, that's it's the sense I hate thinking 590 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: about it. I was alex up and right now, I've 591 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: been led tough for over twenty years, so I spent 592 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: more time in prison than being free. And it's true, 593 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: it's gonna be tough. Yeah, it's gonna be tough. After 594 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: Melanie and I left Ukraine a few weeks ago, we 595 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: thought the country felt so far from those days after 596 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 1: the collapse of the Soviet Union, and nothing like that place. 597 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: The investigators described. The city's felt modern. There were nice 598 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: shops and restaurants. People were out enjoying the dry winter nights. 599 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: They seemed happy. We even said we could see ourselves 600 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: living there. But now, in the wake of the war 601 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,839 Speaker 1: in Ukraine, who knows what the future holds for Mike, 602 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: And the same goes for the priests of Holy Cross. 603 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: It seems like they were just figuring out how to 604 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 1: get themselves settled after the failure of their medical center, 605 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,759 Speaker 1: but maybe the invasion made their plans uncertain. When we 606 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: started on this project, we were looking for closure. We 607 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: wanted to feel like we knew definitively what happened, But 608 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: it has me thinking about what doctor Quintana said about Mike, 609 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: that he needs his version of the story in order 610 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 1: to survive, and maybe that goes for everyone, the priests, 611 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: the students, the lawyers us at the start of this 612 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: there are so many things we never thought could have happened. 613 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: We never thought we would talk to Father, went, that 614 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: Mike would maybe return to a country at war, or 615 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: that Gail Levin would change her side of the story. 616 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: But that gives us hope that someday other stories might 617 00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: change and we'll finally know everything that really happened at 618 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: Holy Cross. Next week, we'll be back with a bonus 619 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: episode of the show. We'll be answering some of the 620 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 1: questions you emailed us through the weeks and sharing some 621 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 1: moments that didn't quite make it into other episodes, so 622 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,800 Speaker 1: be sure to look out for that. Sacred Scandal is 623 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: a production of Exile Content Studio and partnership with I 624 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radios Michael Dura Podcast Network. Sacred Scandal was created 625 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: and produced by Melanie Bartley and me Paula Burrows, our 626 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: senior producer is Dennis funk of Written in Air. The 627 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: executive producers are Rose Red and Nando Villa. Production mixing 628 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: and sound design in by Helena de grut Our. Production 629 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 1: assistant is Imani Leonard. The show is fact checked by 630 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,359 Speaker 1: Kimberly Winston. Original music and final audio mixing comes from 631 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: Patrick Hart. If you like the music from this show, 632 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: check out the episode notes for a link to listen 633 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,840 Speaker 1: to it. This show was made with the help of 634 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: a lot of other people too, Julia Tera, suk Dr 635 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: Marianna Talks, Korshinska, Nancy Manno, Alex Dumas, Pierre Jr, Ariel Stevenson, 636 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:41,240 Speaker 1: Corey Chaikowski, Patrie Kin, Jonez, Rachel Ward, Brian Robertson, George Drake, JR. Brett, 637 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 1: Ashley Bridges, Alissa Martini, Michael Haziza, Gretta Weber, Andres Bellygoi, 638 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: Javier Puga, and Travis Roy. If you'd like to reach out, 639 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 1: email us at hello at Sacred Scandal podcast dot com, 640 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: and you can follow us on Instagram. I'm at Sacred Scandal. 641 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:18,759 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. M