1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: Decades of good works and social consciousness fundraising weren't enough 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: to dissuade a federal judge from ordering former TPG Capital 4 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: executive Bill mcglash in to prison for three months for 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: paying fifty dollars to fix his son's college test scores. 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Joining me as Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal reporter Pat tell Us. 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: About Bill McGlashen, well, he's a hot shot investor. Used 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: to work with TPG as an executive, and he co 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: founded what was called the Rise Fund, which was like 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: totally conscious investing in all kinds of programs, do good 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: or programs, and he co founded it with Jeff Skolls, 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: E day billionaire and social activist and rock star Bono. 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: And he was well known in the financial world as 14 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: doing good for fundraising, including getting dairy farmers in India 15 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: to help them get their milk to market in a 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: better way, or funding a program in Zambia to deliver 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: medicine via drone. So it's the kind of a socially 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: conscious investing that he was well known for. Books few 19 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: years ago, he got arrested as one of the more 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: than thirty parents caught up in this college cheeting scandal, 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: and he was accused of two different scams with their mastermind. 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: He apparently allegedly had hired Rick Singer, the college advisor 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: who was corrupt, to fix his son's act college test 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: scores in one part of it, and the government alleged 25 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: there was a second part where he had talked and 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: discussed with Singer paying a bribe of like two hundred 27 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: thousand dollars to get his son into USC as a 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: purported football recruit when his son's high school didn't even 29 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: have a football team. So now he made a plea 30 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: deal with the prosecute so that he wouldn't have to 31 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: go to trial. Tell us what his eldest son wrote 32 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: in a letter to the judge before his father's sentencing. 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: His son, George McGlashan, who was a high school senior 34 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: at the time, wrote a heartfelt letter to the court 35 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: basically talking about that his father had been swept up 36 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: and what he called quote unquote parental insanity. And he 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: said that if he watched his father get more and 38 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: more stressed out about college working with Singer, and he 39 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: became compulsive and started monitoring everything he did and talking 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: to him about going to the right colleges, everything in life, 41 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: and George said that he was not stressed out at all, 42 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: which probably made his father even more so, which any 43 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: parent of any teenager flying to college when probably sympathized with. 44 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: But George says that this was totally unwarranted and his 45 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: father just basically lost it in the pressures of trying 46 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: to get his eldest son into the right school. But 47 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: prosc hu has told the judge that mcglashin had fully 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: embraced the fraud and that he had led a double life. Yeah, 49 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: and that was a really interesting thing because his friends 50 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: all expressed shock that doesn't even happened and he'd been ensnared. 51 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: And the prosecutor, Justin O'Connell said, you know, here he 52 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: is doing work as a co founder of a social 53 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: impact fund who's devoting his life to addressing inequalities through investments, 54 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: and he quote thought to bring a positive change by 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: leveling the playing field. But privately, he said, when no 56 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: one was looking, he did the exact opposite, using his 57 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: wealth and privilege to quote slant that playing field in 58 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: favor of his son by gaming the system. And what 59 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: did mcglashin tell the judge when he had a chance 60 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: to address him. It was actually one of the more 61 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: dramatic elocutions I've heard from one of these parents, and 62 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: it was interesting to hear from him because he actually 63 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: adopted what the prosecutor said of his leading a dual life. 64 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: He said that what he did was in terrible conflicts 65 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: for the way he'd actually lived his life, and he 66 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: said I'm ready to pay the price of going to prison, 67 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: and that this experience has affected him profoundly and humbled him. 68 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: His heart felt emotional contrition was really unusual for some 69 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: of the parents, who basically say a very formulaic kind 70 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: of statement, I'm sorry this ever happened. I mean, this 71 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: was one of the most emotional statements I've heard from 72 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: a parent. And Judge Nathaniel Gordon said you'll serve at 73 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: least sometime in jail to demonstrate that even the rich 74 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: and famous cannot avoid the rule of law. But he 75 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: also said he was dumbfounded and appalled by the parents crimes. 76 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: The judge was actually pointing out, he still doesn't understand 77 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: a scandal like what in the world of these parents thinking. 78 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: He said, You're undoubtedly an intelligent, hard working businessman who 79 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: devoted a significant amount of time and money and resources 80 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: to doing social good and get you're in front of me, 81 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: and I'm going to have to sense to you because 82 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: he displayed an incredible lack of integrity. Explain this. His 83 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: plea deal includes a provision that he can still challenge 84 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: the government's theory that the test scores are property. Explain that, yeah, 85 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: it's um, it's under the law of a fraud. Whether 86 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: who's the victim here? You know, is the testing service, 87 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: the victim is the school of victim? Is is the 88 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: testing service the scores that you get if you get 89 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: them fixed. The government's theory is that, um, this was 90 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: property of the testing service and that this purloined or 91 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: fabricated property was hypothetically stolen in their theory of this case. 92 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: And he heavily contested it. He's got quite a team 93 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: of defense lawyers, and they really assailed the government the 94 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: strength of the government's case because this is like the 95 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: first time they've actually tested this theory, this kind of 96 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: new theory of can you own test scores? And who 97 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: owns them? Is the student? Who owns them? Is it's 98 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: the testing agency that owns them, and you know who's 99 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: defrauded here as a victim. So he's pursuing that. So 100 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: if later on down the road, after this case shakes 101 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: out and whatever happens to the other parents, he's going 102 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: to still appeal that aspect and he gets to basically 103 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: if the appeals court says this is not a fraud 104 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: and this is the testing companies were not defrauded, there 105 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: was nothing, there was no scept of that, then they 106 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: he gets to withdraw that part of his guilty plate. 107 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: The first actual trial and the college admission scandal will 108 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: take place in September in Boston, where eight parents are 109 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: going to go on trial. That seems like a lot 110 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: of defendants, especially where they're caces, have to be dissimilar 111 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: in some ways. That's also been a huge bonus contention 112 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: between the parents and the prosecutors because they've been doing 113 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: this challenge. It's called the spoken the Hub theory, and 114 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: basically what the government did here is they made a 115 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: plea deal with Rick Singer, the masterline of the case, 116 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: and he gave up all the parents. The government argues 117 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: that the parents are all co conspirators with each other, 118 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: like they're conspiring with Rick, but also co conspirators of 119 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: each other. The parents argue, I don't know who these 120 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: other parents are. I only knew Rook Singer, so how 121 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: can I be co conspirator with someone I never met? 122 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: So that's also going to be fiercely contested at the 123 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: appellate level. I mean, imagine the kind of prejudicial spillover 124 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: that would be on one parent who maybe just did 125 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: one phone call versus another parent that may have had 126 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: more machinations or more alleged meetings with Singer and more 127 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: wire taps. You've covered a lot of trials. I've covered 128 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: a lot of trials. Have you ever seen a trial 129 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: with eight defendants? I used to cover in the good 130 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: old days mafia trials, it would be like fifteen defendants. 131 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: But those are really, really rare, and they are very 132 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: unwieldy and under COVID protocol, it kind of boggles the 133 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: mind how you're going to fit eight people with their 134 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: various defense lawyers in a courtroom. It's going to be 135 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: a challenge. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado. Over the 136 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: last ten years, the number of lawyers practicing over the 137 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: age of sixty five has increased more than fift Meanwhile, 138 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: more than one in nine people over sixty five are 139 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: diagnosed with Alzheimer's, the most common type of dementia. So 140 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: what are the guidelines when someone thinks a colleague of 141 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: their's is suffering from cognitive decline? Joining me is Holly Barker, 142 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: senior legal reporter at Bloomberg Law. Start with the numbers. 143 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: How many lawyers over the age of sixty five are 144 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: still practicing? In twenty there are a hundred and sixty 145 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: one thousand attorneys over the age of sixty five, and 146 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: that's out of one point two million roughly attorneys nationally, 147 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: So that's about thirteen point six percent of lawyers in 148 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: active practice. And the number was actually a little bit 149 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: higher in twenty nineteen, but overall it's been substantially increasing 150 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: for decades, uh fifty percent higher than it was in 151 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, for example. And what about the numbers of 152 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: people over the age of sixty five with Alzheimer's. One 153 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: in nine people over the age of sixty five are 154 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: experiencing Alzheimer's pypontia have actually been diagnosed, uh, And the 155 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: number accelerates a great deal as people age, So by 156 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: this time you're eighty. I believe that it's a forty 157 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: four point six percent of people aged eighty five and over. 158 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes people don't recognize that they're suffering from cognitive decline 159 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: or they're in denial about it. Is it more noticeable 160 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: when it's a practicing lawyer. Uh? Not necessarily. It depends 161 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: in part on what extent an attorney is sort of 162 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: operating as an island. Even in large organizations, attorneys are 163 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: sort of can be responsible for their own practices. And 164 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: it might not be a colleague. It could, you know, 165 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: like another attorney, but it could be an assistant or 166 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: somebody in the tech department, and who notices that a 167 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: lawyer keeps forgetting their password. A lot of of what 168 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: attorneys do they've been doing for years, and it's and 169 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: it's rehearsed, and you know, they can recite the elements 170 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: of a crime in their sleep, but it's there. It's 171 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: sort of your executive functioning that goes first. So it 172 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: could be misappointment, misdeadlines, an inability to sort of apply 173 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: the substance of law that they know well to a 174 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: new set of facts. You know, part of all of 175 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: those years of professional training enables attorneys to tap into 176 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: cognitive reserves essentially, and they can sort of pivot and 177 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: deflect if they're unable to answer a question or if 178 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: they're feeling confused. Some of the people you spoke to 179 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: said that part of the self denial in the early 180 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: stages of dementia has to do with how closely their 181 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: identities are connected to their career and their professional lives, 182 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: and Tish Vincent, who is chair of the American Bar 183 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: Association Commission on Lawyer Assistance Program, said they'll cling to 184 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: their professional identities until they're dying breath. Tell us about 185 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: that aspect of it. I think for most practicing attorneys, 186 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: it's such an all Encompany saying career choice, and they're 187 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: so accustomed to being able to help people out of 188 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: life sort of most challenging circumstances. It's not just what 189 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: they do for a living, it's who they are, and 190 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: I think that sort of relinquishing that sort of feels 191 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: like relinquishing a part of yourself. Our disciplinary body is 192 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: handling a lot of cases of lawyers with dementia whose 193 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: actions hurt their clients. So it's it's a relatively small 194 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: fraction of the overall issues that they deal with based 195 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: on the information available. But the information available is fairly limited, 196 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: in part because a lot of scape OUR programs have 197 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: implemented sort of diversionary programs where if they get a 198 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: referral about misconduct and they suspect that that it is 199 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: connected to cognitive decline, they'll try to redirect the attorney 200 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: to a lawyer assistance program to the extent that their 201 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: lawyers systems programs have those resources. And they'll also encourage 202 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: them to retire voluntarily so that they can they can 203 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: retire with dignities and they don't have to have their 204 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: last act be a disciplinary action. A lot of these 205 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: people have otherwise thoughtless careers. You write that deciding to 206 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: intervene about a colleague or a boss perhaps can be 207 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: difficult and heartbreaking. Can it also be risky? It can 208 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: be risky if, for example, you're in a small firm 209 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,599 Speaker 1: and and that attorney is the bread work winner or 210 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: the the managing partner um to the extent that they're 211 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: the brand for your for your firm, or you rely 212 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: on them to to generate business and the work that 213 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: you do. Ending their career. UH, if that's the outcome, 214 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 1: could throw you into alert. You spoke to someone who 215 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: said that it's easier to report someone for drugs or 216 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: alcohol abuse than it is for dementia. So lawyer assistance 217 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: programs were initially founded with a with a focus on 218 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: substance abuse issues. In only I think around thirty three 219 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: states had any resources their lawyer assistance programs, that is 220 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: for cognitive decline, and that that increased to about forty 221 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: three and fourteen. But even then it depends in part 222 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: on what resources there are in their community, So if 223 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: you're in a rural community, it might be a lot 224 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: more difficult to get a neuropsychological evaluation. The other thing 225 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: is that neuropsychological evaluations are expensive, they can cost a 226 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: couple of thousand dollars. And lawyer assystems programs generally, you know, 227 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: they have finite resources, so there's only so much they 228 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: can do, and relative to substance abuse as in decline 229 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: is just it represents a smaller fraction of what they do, 230 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: so they're naturally going to be sort of less a dept. 231 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: But not all that. Many programs are much more sophisticated 232 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: now than they used to be. For example, in Illinois, 233 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: Diana Uchiyama, who has been the executive director since she 234 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: is both a forensic psychologist and an attorney, and she 235 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: I think is laser focused on this issue and because 236 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: of her skill set really especially a debt starretting out 237 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: the issue and she's sensitive to it. So the resources 238 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: have improved substantially that I think there's a lot of 239 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: work across the country to be done. Does a lawyer 240 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: have a duty to report or intervene if he or 241 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: she suspects another lawyer is impaired? And most states yes, 242 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: and there there are different sort of mechanisms for doing 243 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: that if you suspect that a lawyer is no longer 244 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: capable of providing competent practice. In most states, yes, there 245 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: is a duty to report your colleagues, but that's not 246 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: uniformly true. The model rule is a b A Model 247 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: Rule eight point three, and California, for example, has affirmatively 248 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: not adopted that. And that's not to say that there 249 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: anything that other than maintaining client confidentiality that would preclude 250 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: colleagues from reporting it in California, but there isn't an 251 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: affirmative obligation to There's no way to tell how many 252 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: lawyers are practicing, actually practicing with who have dementia. Our 253 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: Lawyers Assistance Program seeing an increase in outreach. From what 254 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: I understand, Diana Uchiyama said that, yes, she has been 255 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: an uptick, and we're roles related to positive decline, especially 256 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: in recent months as people emerge from the pandemic. You know, 257 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: isolation and disruption routines can sort of exacerbate early stages 258 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: of dementia or the signs of early stages of dementia. 259 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: And you know, when as people sort of emerge, their 260 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: colleagues are seeing them for the first time, and the 261 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: decline I think is more pronounced, so perhaps it's easier 262 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: to recognize for that reason. What's the best advice for 263 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: someone who suspects that a colleague is suffering from dementia 264 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: a legal colleague. I think it depends on the resources 265 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: you have available to you and sort of the LAP 266 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: program interstate. But I think one of the key the 267 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: key things to think about is not to approach the 268 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: person by saying, I think you have dementia. I think 269 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: colleagues ought to focus on the concrete observations that they 270 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: have if the if their colleague has been less responsive 271 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: or they're not showing up for calls, or they're failing 272 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: to communicate significant developments to clients, sort of focusing on 273 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: on sort of what concrete air ors they're identifying, because 274 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, lawyers by and large aren't aren't trained to 275 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: identify it, and it might not be irreversible. Dementia depression 276 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: can cause people, you know, memory loss, and fleet deprivation 277 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: can cause memory loss, and there the manifestation of the 278 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: symptoms could ultimately be related to something else. So I 279 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: think it's important to sort of not make that assumption, 280 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: but to really focus on the conduct and to the 281 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: extent that you can in lest family members and colleagues 282 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: to sort of help intervene, it really helps. And I 283 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: think that's a lot of what lawyer assistance programs do 284 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: is they will try to assemble a group of people 285 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: trusted colleagues, family members who can encourage the person who, 286 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: if necessary, undergo a formal evaluation so they can really 287 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: fair out the issue. I know that some large law 288 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: firms used to have retire them in ages. I don't 289 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: know if they do anymore, but do larger law firms 290 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: have a better handle on lawyers who are perhaps in 291 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: cognitive decline. My senses that they do, in part because 292 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: the sort of the referrals that you do see and 293 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: the disciplinary proceedings that e D see UM tend to 294 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: skew towards solo practitioners and smaller organizations, which which makes 295 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Uh, large firms, You're right, they 296 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: used to have mandatory retirement agents. Most of them, to 297 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: my understanding, don't anymore. But they do have more scaffolding 298 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: in place, like they might have anonymous reporting systems that 299 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: colleagues can use, and there's you know, sort of more support. 300 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: There are will people to help carry the weight and 301 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: to to intervene quickly. You wrote extensively about Bethanie McLean 302 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: and what she went through. Just tell me a little 303 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: bit about her story. So, Bethany McQueen, this was her 304 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: first legal job right after she graduated. Uh She had 305 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: been biding her time at a wurlieball booking children's birthday 306 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: parties in Chicago because it was right after the financial crisis, 307 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: uh and and jobs were scarce. She interviewed with Robert 308 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: Fischall uh and and he was older, but he had 309 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: goals of explanding his practice. He was charming, he was enthusiastic, Uh. 310 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: He was. He was charismatic. UM and she had no 311 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: reason initially to think that that anything was wrong. But 312 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: once she joined this practice and she started going through 313 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: his client files, UH, they were in total disarray. He 314 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: was missing a retroutable deadlines, he was failing to communicate 315 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: significant developments to clients. And you know, she was receiving 316 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: communications from opposing counsel. UH that that really suggested that 317 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: that something was terribly wrong. UH. So she started by 318 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: reaching out to Illinois Black programs UH, and she just 319 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: she wasn't able to get the guidance that she needed, 320 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: UH specific to sort of her to dementia related concerns. 321 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: They had robust resources with respect to substance abuse, but 322 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: from her perspective, they seemed to lack any protocol for 323 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: what she should do under in these specific circumstances. So 324 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: she eventually started calling uh the Illinois Disciplinary Commissions Hotline 325 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: ethics hotline, you know, which can provide direction when you 326 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: have ethics questions, but they generally don't take action until 327 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: you file a formal complaint. And it's and it's something 328 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: that she was really trying to avoid because she she 329 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: knew the implicate what the implications would be for for 330 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: his legacy. But that's that's ultimately what she was forced 331 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: to do. Um. You know, when she would try to 332 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: discuss client matters and upcoming deadlines and missed deadlines, he 333 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: was he was aloof she said so. Um it was 334 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: the last resort you know. Unfortunately, you know, she wasn't 335 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: able to find a better way to intervene at the time. 336 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: You told me you got the idea to do this 337 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: story about dementia and lawyers because of what you learned 338 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: about the lawyer Thomas Girardi tell us about that he's 339 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: in his eighties. He is uh nationally known planets attorney, 340 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: that he was the attorney that that was featured in 341 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: Aaron Rockovich. And there was a complainant filed in the 342 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: Northern District of Illinois basically alleging that that he had 343 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: embezzled two million dollars from clients who were family members 344 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: of individuals who died in the Lion Air crash in 345 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: And it was a few weeks later, maybe a month later. Uh, 346 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: he was also in bankruptcy proceedings where his representative basically 347 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: said he's suffering from dementia and he's really not capable 348 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: of representing himself, and there's since been a conservator appointed 349 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: for him, at least for some limited responsibilities in managing 350 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: his accounts. But it got me thinking, if this is true, 351 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: how often does it happen? And what are what are 352 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: our colleagues obligations to intervene? And would you be able 353 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: to recognize it if he saw it? So that's sort 354 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: of what got me thinking about the issue generally. This 355 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: is just sort of how it unfolded when I started digging. 356 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: Became really clear to me so uniformly everyone I talked 357 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: to said, no, this this is a real problem, and yes, 358 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: it is really difficult to identify, and you know, there 359 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: is a lot of denial around the issue, and it's 360 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: a growing one given the aging bar. Thanks for being 361 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Law Show. Holly. That's Holly Barker, senior 362 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: legal reporter for Bloomberg Law. And that's it for the 363 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: edition of the Bloomberg Lawn Show. Remember you could always 364 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. 365 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and at 366 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: www dot Bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law. I'm 367 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: June Grosso. Thanks so much for listening, and please tune 368 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: into the Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight. Attend them Eastern 369 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: right here on Bloomberg Radio.