Speaker 1: We'll tinker with it. We'll toy with it. We'll do
Speaker 1: enough to kind of TII and believe me, like I'll
Speaker 1: doodle just to lighten the topic. I'll throw stupid silly
Speaker 1: jokes out. I'll keep it a reverend and light because
Speaker 1: we all have to laugh at the absurdity of it.
Speaker 1: And then we're going to flip the script pretty fast
Speaker 1: from what could be dour and morbid, which I mean,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, it is it ultimately sucks, and then
Speaker 1: move that fast into okay, and so now what do
Speaker 1: you feel motivated to do with your time so you
Speaker 1: don't end up getting to the end and feeling like
Speaker 1: maybe you didn't do a justice or then you have
Speaker 1: those depbed regrets, which to me is I think my
Speaker 1: biggest fear, I mean, other than spiders.
Speaker 2: Today we have Jody Wellman on the show. Jody is
Speaker 2: an author, executive coach, and an expert on resiliency. In
Speaker 2: this episode, we discuss her very interesting book, You Only
Speaker 2: Die Once How to Make It to the End with
Speaker 2: No Regrets. The title of the book basically sums up
Speaker 2: what we discussed in this episode. I really hope this
Speaker 2: episode inspires you to make the most of what you
Speaker 2: have and live your life fully and meaningfully. I really
Speaker 2: endure Jody, and I'm so glad I finally got her
Speaker 2: on the show. So I now bring you Jody Wellman.
Speaker 2: Jody Wellman, Welcome to the Psychology podcast.
Speaker 1: Go Up, very combid. I'm overly thrilled to be here
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you here. And finally I
Speaker 2: talked to you, and congratulations on your new book called
Speaker 2: You Only Die Once, Very clever. How to make it
Speaker 2: to the end with no regrets? Wow? You know there's
Speaker 2: research showing that people's last name correlates with their profession.
Speaker 2: So like shoemakers tend to be more likely to make shoes,
Speaker 2: people with the word well and their last name tend
Speaker 2: to be more likely to become psychologists or coaches. I
Speaker 2: don't know, did you always feel like a calling to
Speaker 2: help with wellness?
Speaker 1: What a good question?
Speaker 2: And do you also like men? And trying to figure
Speaker 2: out the well men part.
Speaker 1: Of the combo? I just go rightful that I did
Speaker 1: not fall for a guy whose last name was Sickmund,
Speaker 1: because that would have been probably not good for my career.
Speaker 1: Jody Sickmann. But I like how do you know that
Speaker 1: obscure research only you would.
Speaker 2: Know that that's true. It's true? Maybe maybe, Yeah, So
Speaker 2: I am generally interested to have you always been interested
Speaker 2: in well in death maybe like or wellness? Like what's
Speaker 2: the theme that runs through your life?
Speaker 1: Well, I would say wellness was the theme that was
Speaker 1: obvious on the outside, because I felt like that was
Speaker 1: less weird to show. So I spent the first seventeen
Speaker 1: years of my career in the health and wellness field,
Speaker 1: like running health clubs, and that was the whole other career,
Speaker 1: and then getting into leadership development and coaching, so that's
Speaker 1: all about, and then positive psychology well being raw, but
Speaker 1: the undercurrent was always this little topic of mortality where
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm fascinated by and all you want
Speaker 1: to do is read about and talk about and then
Speaker 1: scream it from the mountains, this idea about we're totally
Speaker 1: going to die, we should get on with living. But
Speaker 1: I that was like not as easy to talk about
Speaker 1: until I hope I found a way to do it
Speaker 1: and not turn everybody off. So it's it was always
Speaker 1: like the duality between well being, let's live like we
Speaker 1: mean it, and then also, yeah, because it's going to end.
Speaker 2: What do you do with people who can't wait to die?
Speaker 2: Like I thought, let's just dive ray into the deep end.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: We don't have time to I feel like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's so many people who have your attitude, but we're
Speaker 2: about those who are like, yeah, I've had enough of
Speaker 2: this shit.
Speaker 1: I love I can overly positive acceptance towards that. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't come out of the woodwork too
Speaker 1: much in my world, like for example, on Instagram, where
Speaker 1: everybody's just so lovely and happy every now and then
Speaker 1: you get that attitude like I put. I put a
Speaker 1: question I once, like what age do you want to die?
Speaker 1: I realized I was totally fishing for the crazies, and
Speaker 1: most people were honest, like, oh, I think eighty would
Speaker 1: be a good lie? Or when I The most common
Speaker 1: answer was like up until I can no longer after myself.
Speaker 1: Only at the end did stuff emerge where there were
Speaker 1: people that are like, yesterday, yeah, couldn't I be gone?
Speaker 1: And so fortunately I'm not like in any kind of
Speaker 1: therapeutic space around that, and so it's just to me,
Speaker 1: it's sad.
Speaker 2: Interesting, like even day benefit from reading your book, Oh.
Speaker 1: What a good question. My hope would be yes. Cool,
Speaker 1: because the point of it isn't so much about death
Speaker 1: death death, it's death death and then live in all cats,
Speaker 1: right and.
Speaker 2: Keep living, helping people live more fully. Right. Yeah. Now
Speaker 2: you have a Master's of Applied Positive Psychology from Penn
Speaker 2: That's where I first met you, and you were an
Speaker 2: insistant instructor or you still are. You are right now
Speaker 2: an insistant instructor in the master's program and you're a
Speaker 2: trainer in the World Around Resilience program. Amazing. So yeah,
Speaker 2: so you have a lot of expertise and resilience and
Speaker 2: wellness thriving coaching. Your certified coach with twenty five years
Speaker 2: of corporate leadership experience. So like when you coach people,
Speaker 2: is this idea of carpi DM or memento mori? Yeah,
Speaker 2: an important central concept in your coaching good cue?
Speaker 1: Well, the answer is yes with an asterix, right, So
Speaker 1: that would be my agenda. And if I was, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess as you teach in like your coaching programs,
Speaker 1: like if I'm coming at it with them, let me
Speaker 1: tell you here's the curriculum. It would be probably like
Speaker 1: the worst shittiest coach in the world. However, while I
Speaker 1: don't do a lot of one on one anymore, it's
Speaker 1: not mostly in groups. And when I was doing it
Speaker 1: one on one, you know, I think maybe I'm attracted
Speaker 1: to clients and then they would find me because of
Speaker 1: this spirit of I want to get on with it.
Speaker 1: I'm scared. I want more out of my life, but
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how, or I get a sense
Speaker 1: like am I squandering my time? So sometimes those were
Speaker 1: the questions and qualities that would maybe attract people into
Speaker 1: knowing what I did, and then I'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: then let's dive in and go there, rather than them
Speaker 1: talking about some other topic and me being like, let's
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that you're temporary. Like I wouldn't
Speaker 1: spring it on them, you know what I mean, but
Speaker 1: absolutely thematically, well like we cannot go there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean. The existential humanist psychologist arv and y'all
Speaker 2: and certainly wrote a lot about this. Did you read
Speaker 2: Staring into the Sun.
Speaker 1: Like just soaked it in?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of my favorite books. And he wouldn't
Speaker 2: he I mean, he has a whole therapy around it,
Speaker 2: So why not having a whole coaching around it?
Speaker 1: I think that's very as long as they know they're
Speaker 1: signing up for it.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 1: That's why are we always talking about the groom Reaper
Speaker 1: in our sessions. I mean, I love it. I love
Speaker 1: the idea of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, so what is memento Maury old Latin phrase?
Speaker 1: Remember we must die? Doesn't it just stir the cockles
Speaker 1: of your heart?
Speaker 2: Hmm? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I think that at various
Speaker 2: points in our lives we have different realizations of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And what I notice is that most of
Speaker 1: us intentionally don't I guess now that you say that, right, Like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we often keep it away from our consciousness.
Speaker 1: Right, And I don't blame us for doing that. We
Speaker 1: want to be safe. We want to be have a
Speaker 1: good day, not a totally freaking morbid day. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think because you've studied this and you've actually.
Speaker 2: Been some people want to freaking morbid day. I just
Speaker 2: had a whole episode on the science of morbid curiosity.
Speaker 1: Love it, love him some people love that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally get it.
Speaker 2: But I know what you mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for the gen pop, you know, we're kind of like,
Speaker 1: how do I just like like scrape by today and
Speaker 1: have it be okay. And that's the thing that I
Speaker 1: find the most kind of sizzily is that okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: we want to live with more intention and meaning and
Speaker 1: feel good about our lives. And funny enough, it's exactly
Speaker 1: by doing the thing you don't think you want to do, Like,
Speaker 1: let's scratch the surface and maybe go deeper on the
Speaker 1: fact that you're a ticking time bomb.
Speaker 2: And that's interesting. Yeah, I just try to interrupt you.
Speaker 2: You're taking time bomb? Well, I mean it's it's just like,
Speaker 2: can you enjoy something knowing it's going to come to
Speaker 2: an end? And then there's some deep philosophical questions there
Speaker 2: that no one's ever fully answered. But yeah, like would
Speaker 2: you enjoy something if you thought, if you knew, it
Speaker 2: would never end? Can you?
Speaker 1: My answer is a very aggressive belief in no, so
Speaker 1: can I ask first what do you think? And you
Speaker 1: can lead the witness here, but what do you think?
Speaker 2: No? I think that having an ending is what gives
Speaker 2: something a meaning. Yeah, we're seeing from the.
Speaker 1: Same sound book. Yeah, yeah, the well that songbook, same operatic.
Speaker 1: This is like the best part of my day. I
Speaker 1: love it. That is the tune of.
Speaker 2: We don't think we need it? That is it.
Speaker 1: That's the theme song. That the fact that we're a
Speaker 1: finite and when we pay attention to it. So you know,
Speaker 1: temporal scarcity is like the psychology science way of putting
Speaker 1: it that any resource that is temporary, we value it more, Okay,
Speaker 1: And we can apply that scarcity heuristic to our lives.
Speaker 1: And it's only when for most of us, we pay
Speaker 1: attention to the fact that in my world, I count
Speaker 1: how many Mondays I have left, so I've got one
Speaker 1: and ten as of this week. And if I didn't
Speaker 1: do that math, I'm like my freaking day job, and
Speaker 1: I need to do that math, remind myself every Monday
Speaker 1: and get recentered and go oh yeah, because I'm taking
Speaker 1: it for granted.
Speaker 2: That's assuming that you'll live to what age.
Speaker 1: That gets me to eighty three as a woman average age? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like a lot when you put it
Speaker 2: that way, right, Why do you propose that we count
Speaker 2: our Mondays? Why not our Fridays?
Speaker 1: Great question? Okay, if we had, like when we had
Speaker 1: four thousand Fridays, it all just sounds easy and fun,
Speaker 1: and I want life to be great and easy and fun.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't let us reflect enough, because this is
Speaker 1: slam dunk and Monday, though in comparison, allows us to
Speaker 1: do this visceral like how do I feel about my
Speaker 1: week ahead? Am I dreading going and doing the thing
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be doing if I'm still working or whatnot?
Speaker 1: And so it's just this way of looking at does
Speaker 1: another week of your life excite you, allure you, depress
Speaker 1: you insert adjective here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's fair enough. And some people have put
Speaker 2: these posters on their wall that show and yeah I
Speaker 2: know that Tim Urban, yeah has one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got one off his weight, but whyside And
Speaker 1: it's funny. I gave those to a big business group
Speaker 1: I was leading years ago as the coach for the
Speaker 1: holiday season. I rolled them all up and put little
Speaker 1: scrolls on them and gave them out and strangely nobody
Speaker 1: was interested. It was like, thanks for the turnoff.
Speaker 2: Oh oh yeah. So people consider this kind of talk
Speaker 2: kind of a down or a little bit there. Yeah. So,
Speaker 2: I mean in a lot of ways, your your whole
Speaker 2: message is like, this is not a downer.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, by the way, this is we're going to
Speaker 2: release this episode on Halloween. Can we do that? Mike,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm just saying that out on but.
Speaker 1: We can try, can.
Speaker 2: We try try? But yeah, it might not happen, but
Speaker 2: it feels like a very health So a big point
Speaker 2: here is that your message is not a downer right right,
Speaker 2: like like we need to think about life differently, we
Speaker 2: need to say to think about death differently.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, thank you for grabbing onto that, because we'll
Speaker 1: tinker with it. We'll toy with it. We'll do enough
Speaker 1: to kind of tii and believe me, like I'll doodle
Speaker 1: just to lighten the topic. I'll throw stupid silly jokes out.
Speaker 1: I'll keep it a reverend and light because we all
Speaker 1: have to laugh at the absurdity of it. And then
Speaker 1: we're going to flip the script pretty fast from what
Speaker 1: could be dour and morbid, which I mean, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: it is like it ultimately so, and then move that
Speaker 1: fast into okay, and so, now, what do you feel
Speaker 1: motivated to do with your time so that you don't
Speaker 1: end up getting to the end and feeling like maybe
Speaker 1: you didn't do a justice or then you have those
Speaker 1: deathbed regrets, which to me is I think my biggest fear.
Speaker 1: I mean, other than spiders.
Speaker 2: Oh I don't like spiders. Yes, that the whole deathbed
Speaker 2: regret thing. What are the things that people regret the
Speaker 2: most on their deathbed?
Speaker 1: The biggest thing, statistically would be two categories. First and foremost.
Speaker 1: The way my brain works, I think you'll stills too.
Speaker 1: We've got regrets, regrets of regrets of omission and comission,
Speaker 1: just like our good old fashioned sins. And so we
Speaker 1: think that we are going to be plagued by the
Speaker 1: regrets about the stupid decisions we made, the things we
Speaker 1: did and wish we hadn't. Turns out that stuff we
Speaker 1: tend to find a way to rationalize, which thank god,
Speaker 1: it's good. So those too, let's just set them aside
Speaker 1: because they don't really matter. And now let's focus on
Speaker 1: the regrets of omission, which are those paths not taken,
Speaker 1: like the dreams we had for ourselves that we wondered about,
Speaker 1: like what if I'd gone to that school, or what
Speaker 1: if I'd applied for that big job, or what if
Speaker 1: I had asked her out or whatever? The thing is
Speaker 1: that you kind of wonder and we always I could
Speaker 1: have been happy if we'd moved to Phoenix, or I
Speaker 1: don't know, whatever the thing is you're wondering about the
Speaker 1: thing that you're curious and the thing that you didn't
Speaker 1: take action on, I called them could have, should have
Speaker 1: would us? And so then they further burrow down, and
Speaker 1: you know, Dan Pink's work and the American Regret Project
Speaker 1: studies talk about how, you know, many of us will
Speaker 1: regret things around relational issues, like connection regrets like I
Speaker 1: wished I'd hadn't lost touch with so and so, I
Speaker 1: wish I'd kept my relationships up. So that's a big category.
Speaker 1: And then there would be like foundational regrets like I
Speaker 1: wished I'd done the work. I wished I'd gone and
Speaker 1: spent more time in school, or like gotten you know,
Speaker 1: a better footing in my job or whatnot, and goals
Speaker 1: like I wished I had gone for the marathon that
Speaker 1: I wanted to do, or started my Etsy business and
Speaker 1: like making pillows or whatever the thing is that you
Speaker 1: deign to do.
Speaker 2: So really, the unrealization of one's highest potential. Yeah, is
Speaker 2: that it like self actualization?
Speaker 1: I think it is. And it's like as our friend
Speaker 1: or Elm says, like the unlived life and that those
Speaker 1: words just like every time I say them, or write them.
Speaker 1: They grit me in the right way of like imagine
Speaker 1: having that sense of an unlived life, like we're not
Speaker 1: going to reach all of our I'm curious what you
Speaker 1: think about this, because like, well, I have an opinion
Speaker 1: about bucket list two, and I want to hear yours.
Speaker 1: But like a list of dreams, a list of notions
Speaker 1: and things that would be cool to do during our
Speaker 1: four thousand mondays. Yay, we know we're not going to
Speaker 1: get to do every single thing because well, time is
Speaker 1: just not going to allow for it. But the things
Speaker 1: that matter, like back to the deathbed, regret exercise, if
Speaker 1: you can accurately pinpoint and go holy crap, Like if
Speaker 1: tonight was the night and I was just like I
Speaker 1: was minutes away from perishing, what would I be actually
Speaker 1: kicking myself that I didn't take action on what would
Speaker 1: that be? And so now I have two questions for you.
Speaker 1: One can I get like what would be? Is there
Speaker 1: anything that you would think I always wanted to do
Speaker 1: this thing, whether it's a big thing or a tiny
Speaker 1: little thing or a way of being.
Speaker 2: It's a delightful question and it's a really good thought experiment.
Speaker 2: My mind tends to always work counter to what normal
Speaker 2: people would respond.
Speaker 1: To things, and so therefore I love your anticipated answer.
Speaker 2: I just feel like, if I knew that this was it,
Speaker 2: I would want to just crawl up in my bed
Speaker 2: and read a good book. Like I just don't. I
Speaker 2: think I'd want to maximize my pleasure for the next.
Speaker 1: Yeah, twelve hours, yeah or whatnot. Yeah, I'm just.
Speaker 2: Like mentally prepare for this right, well, part.
Speaker 1: Of the exerras. I love your answer, by the way, because.
Speaker 3: Really, oh my gosh, because I feel like everyone else
Speaker 3: would be like I'd start that nonprofit, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, Like I think that's in the normal answer
Speaker 3: that people give, or or I tell the girl I
Speaker 3: like her, you know, it's just like calm down, Like
Speaker 3: I'd rather just meditate for the for the two hours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, introverts unite, because I would also be like,
Speaker 1: how could I get the cozy'st blanket? Yeah, and get
Speaker 1: corozy and just like and.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe still go up with someone though maybe you can't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I believe there's room for others. So the exercise, though,
Speaker 1: is intended. I think if us we're not on our
Speaker 1: deathbed and we're not doing the exercise because I like
Speaker 1: the other thought experiment of like if you knew, I
Speaker 1: think that if you had a year to live is
Speaker 1: still kind of bullshit because it's not an accurate way
Speaker 1: to really look at and go what do I want
Speaker 1: to do with my life? But that's why I like
Speaker 1: to pick an obscure number, like sixteen years from today
Speaker 1: you're done, because now at least we're kind of sizing
Speaker 1: a little more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if.
Speaker 1: You did imagine if you were gone tonight, what would
Speaker 1: you regret? I call them p regrets, So I know
Speaker 1: it's a w key name, but it's this idea about
Speaker 1: these are regrets in the making, that we're not dead yet,
Speaker 1: so we still have a chance to get out there.
Speaker 1: And if you would think, oh man, I always wanted
Speaker 1: to learn how to speak Spanish, well go download the
Speaker 1: app thing. Or if you wanted to go and you know,
Speaker 1: start like reading to kids at the library, go do that.
Speaker 1: Like there's still time. That's the good news. It's like,
Speaker 1: you don't have to wait anymore. Why are we waiting?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Do you wake up in the morning and uh
Speaker 2: be like I'm alive? Oh my cow, I'm alive today?
Speaker 2: Is that is that you? Like?
Speaker 1: Every day it is, although I hope I don't sound
Speaker 1: like a Disney character when I say that, but I
Speaker 1: do wake up. I do wake up generally quite ecstatic
Speaker 1: that I.
Speaker 2: Am like, oh shit, I had to do this shit again.
Speaker 2: I'm joking. I'm joking. That's the contrary making that joke. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I've gld you appreciate it and you take it the
Speaker 2: right way. So look, you talk about living a squander
Speaker 2: a free life. What does that mean?
Speaker 1: Oh? I love talking about squanderliciousness or not. And I
Speaker 1: feel the need to put an asterix on it too,
Speaker 1: because when I talk about this sort of mission to
Speaker 1: live a squander free life, I think people then go
Speaker 1: to the extreme and say, okay, if it's the anti
Speaker 1: squander life, it means I'm out booking all the trips,
Speaker 1: I'm at all the restaurants, I'm doing all the things,
Speaker 1: all the things that looking on social media, and I'm
Speaker 1: already exhausted even justn't like naming four of them. And no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you know that's why I talk about living and astonishingly
Speaker 1: a live life. It's relative to what you want, right.
Speaker 1: It could involve the glass of wine in a book yay,
Speaker 1: Or it could involve going out and going to a
Speaker 1: gala or going on a yacht trip or whatever. And
Speaker 1: so squandering is when we know that we kind of
Speaker 1: want to be doing more, but we're either playing it
Speaker 1: small if that matters to us, or that we are
Speaker 1: like literally wasting our time so that we find that
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's like, how did it get
Speaker 1: to be the end of September? And I have no
Speaker 1: idea what happened because all my days were just these
Speaker 1: monotonous blurs merging into each other. So it's the idea
Speaker 1: of squandering without being intentional and concrete and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: you know it will be cool. How would I feel
Speaker 1: alive this weekend? Oh that's one thing I could do.
Speaker 1: I could browse through that bookstore, or I could go
Speaker 1: and have brunch with a friend, or whatever the thing
Speaker 1: is you choose to do. So it's plugging into life
Speaker 1: rather than letting it kind of carry us down that stream,
Speaker 1: because you know, we could just answer our emails and
Speaker 1: live a life of doing that and then but we
Speaker 1: haven't really lived. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: It? Does it? Does? I like your way of being?
Speaker 2: And what was your master's thesis about this topic? Right?
Speaker 1: Called Memento Mooring. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how is it received by your colleagues at.
Speaker 1: Matt Yeah, it was received well. In fact, it was
Speaker 1: through some of the faculty there that I believe that
Speaker 1: the encouragement was to go for it, Like I was
Speaker 1: a little bit fearful as a pleaser, like I don't
Speaker 1: want to buck the system of positive psychology. But as
Speaker 1: we know, positive psychology embraces all of it, the light,
Speaker 1: the dark, the everything. Right, it's about being resilient in
Speaker 1: making the whole of life that is temporary. And so
Speaker 1: fortunately the idea is like, yeah, go explore the idea
Speaker 1: of death. There's a really warm, friendly place for it
Speaker 1: in positive psychology and humanistic psychology and existential psychology. I mean,
Speaker 1: we all play together nicely.
Speaker 2: Right we do?
Speaker 1: Whose we we in the world of psychology.
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, no, but for sure yeah, no, wonderful. I
Speaker 2: mean I have such a unique thesis related a little
Speaker 2: bit to David Yaiden's master's thesis, but he did at Penn,
Speaker 2: which was on the good Death.
Speaker 1: I didn't even know.
Speaker 2: Yeah we should have him, now stop it your funny.
Speaker 2: Yours is very unique and different, but it just relates
Speaker 2: and maybe we can get you a copy of David's
Speaker 2: just pisis But no, it's it's a very you are
Speaker 2: very sweet gen there is you know, you're very unique,
Speaker 2: you know, uh, and you know like you I don't
Speaker 2: know if I said it right, I don't know. I
Speaker 2: want the kind you want to the kind Thank you
Speaker 2: Laden for one of a kind.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: There is a lot of research on languishing and even
Speaker 2: your phrases and your phrasing, I mean you have a
Speaker 2: unique spin. You're Jody Wellman. Like when I think of
Speaker 2: Jody Wellman, I think of something very unique within the
Speaker 2: space of psychology. So you talk about how to undebt
Speaker 2: our lives, but isn't that really just how do we
Speaker 2: get out of the languishing state into a state of flourishing?
Speaker 1: Yes, And mister improv I think, yeah, the answer is yes.
Speaker 1: And the mechanism is one that is one that I
Speaker 1: sometimes lament but obviously have embraced. So it's that it's yes,
Speaker 1: And we need the nudge, We need the grim Reaper
Speaker 1: to like take his site and just like kind of
Speaker 1: like gently like tap you like, the way to get
Speaker 1: out of languishing whatever, we determine the way to get
Speaker 1: down to get out of squanderland or whatever it is
Speaker 1: that we're doing. Is that I have found and I'll
Speaker 1: confirmation bias the crap out of finding the research that
Speaker 1: I need in order to bolster the fact that you know, yes,
Speaker 1: we need the negative in order to sometimes we need
Speaker 1: that motivational nudge. But like most of us are not
Speaker 1: that motivated or have that much self initiative to like
Speaker 1: go make our lives full of flourishment, and so we
Speaker 1: have to actually go like, yeah, I've only got this
Speaker 1: many hours left in your way of boarding it, or
Speaker 1: I've only got need one hundred and ten left, and
Speaker 1: so that is the unfortunate but I think necessary nudge
Speaker 1: in order to get out of language land.
Speaker 2: Amazing. Ryan Holiday talks about this too. Yeah, he wears
Speaker 2: his Memento Mari medallion all the time on his Instagram posts.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm talking about, I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So there are others talking about this as well, which
Speaker 2: must feel good to kind of not feel like the
Speaker 2: soul traveler along this message. Stoics a lot about this.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, I've been inspired.
Speaker 2: By yes exactly, he thinks he did. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm joking, joking.
Speaker 1: Trama stoic coin boom. I love it. Yes, And there
Speaker 1: have been so many really great thinkers, whether they're philosophers
Speaker 1: or psychologists from the days of old, you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of your kind of like role models in the day, Yeah, poets,
Speaker 1: I mean literature, Like there's so many things in the
Speaker 1: humanities that are we've been fascinated by the fact that
Speaker 1: we're going to die for as long as we've been alive,
Speaker 1: and like it's high time to continue to use that
Speaker 1: to our datage rather than have it be something that
Speaker 1: we want to avoid because most people, you know, would
Speaker 1: rather head for the hills.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's like the hills are coming, you know,
Speaker 2: like you can there's nowhere to run. Those hills will
Speaker 2: kill you is coming. This is dark.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: This is dark where you go. But some people are
Speaker 2: trying like that Jeff Bezo, the big article came out
Speaker 2: that he's trying to live forever. He's trying to put
Speaker 2: all his billions of dollars into thing forever. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: have a you saw that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And same thing with Brian Johnson, like you know,
Speaker 1: ye Brian Johnson's pajillions.
Speaker 2: And drinking vampire blood.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean whatever gets you through the night pal
Speaker 1: and back to your original original question about like do
Speaker 1: you want to live forever?
Speaker 2: Like that?
Speaker 1: It does sound a bit to me like torture. It
Speaker 1: does sound like torture because it's this idea that would
Speaker 1: we ever really make anything happen? Or that to me
Speaker 1: actually feels like a recipe for just a squanderous existence,
Speaker 1: because it's that would I do I really want to
Speaker 1: go and study that thing in school? You know what,
Speaker 1: I'll do it in like thirteen thousand more years. Or
Speaker 1: do I want to go and initiate this relationship with somebody? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'll catch them the next time around,
Speaker 1: in like thirty eight thousand years. There's no real impetus,
Speaker 1: Like do you feel about the power of a deadline too?
Speaker 2: I do? Oh deaf. I work best under deadlines. I'll
Speaker 2: probably get most of my work done on my deathbed.
Speaker 2: I'll get my best work done. Yeah, opus, I'm good.
Speaker 2: I'm good with deadlines. Why are habits dangerous? No one
Speaker 2: says that. You know you're not going to get like
Speaker 2: what's his name on the show? You know one of
Speaker 2: these habit guys are all guys do big friends? They're
Speaker 2: all guys.
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, yeah, I wasn't thinking to do. I
Speaker 2: was thinking of Clear. I was thinking of James Clear.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, probably death, probably always thinking about the
Speaker 2: next goal exactly. Do you know what I'm saying? I do?
Speaker 1: I do. Yeah, I have bones to pick, very you know,
Speaker 1: very polite bones to pick. But I would say, habits,
Speaker 1: I believe are the recipe for vitality disaster. It's a
Speaker 1: bold statement, Rightah, just came up with it. But I
Speaker 1: think that when we succumb to habits and routines, just
Speaker 1: like related, that's when we go through the motions of life.
Speaker 1: And even those words about going through the motions like okay,
Speaker 1: sometimes that's relieving. Like I'm not a complete idiot. I
Speaker 1: recognize that sometimes we need to tune out and not
Speaker 1: be ever present and ever savoring every moment that we're
Speaker 1: brushing our teeth, like life is complicated, so let's take
Speaker 1: your chill pill. Like sometimes that's when a routine will
Speaker 1: just help pass a fiaus and just get through Oh
Speaker 1: look at you. However, if we want to be happy,
Speaker 1: what I do believe is that we need to abandon
Speaker 1: some of those routines where we become we know this
Speaker 1: we become.
Speaker 2: We need to be. We need to integrate. Both of
Speaker 2: these integrate. Some people are too happy, they need to chill.
Speaker 1: They need to Okay. Well, according to.
Speaker 2: Are you happy, you shut the bug up?
Speaker 1: Next the voice you gave me right morning, wake up,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna have to recalibrate that voice.
Speaker 2: That's my general it's your general happy happy. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: know for anyone who's above zero.
Speaker 1: Right, they need to calm down. Well, the robotanizing how
Speaker 1: we become these highly functioning zombies. Yes, we want to function,
Speaker 1: but most of us could agree that at the end
Speaker 1: of a week or a month, or maybe even it's
Speaker 1: a whole freaking year where we're like, I think I
Speaker 1: just again got sweat up in the current of life,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, do I feel like not not. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be careful in saying do I have anything to show
Speaker 1: for it? Because that also sounds like it's extrinsic, like
Speaker 1: I have to show you on Instagram all the things
Speaker 1: I did this weekend. No, but it's about breaking up
Speaker 1: your routine sometimes in a in the way that works
Speaker 1: for you to feel more alive. Like then all this
Speaker 1: is in service of finding more aliveness. So what it
Speaker 1: might mean is if you know, vital vitality, if you
Speaker 1: have the same route you take to work, or the
Speaker 1: same exact workout, or the same exact date night, or
Speaker 1: whatever it is, because we we just go. We we
Speaker 1: click into these patterns just to be convenient. It's the
Speaker 1: way we're wired, most of us. What about just shaking
Speaker 1: it up, you know, throw a wrench in it, not
Speaker 1: in a way that's going to make you feel anxious.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's symbolic that our flame is out?
Speaker 1: Do you think we've just that it's it's dead. I
Speaker 1: think that you rig this, you purposely chose.
Speaker 2: I've never seen that happen before.
Speaker 1: This is perfect happen before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that candles.
Speaker 1: I think I think it's amazing, it's good. I think
Speaker 1: it's actually like this is practicing appropriate, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So be careful of routines. They'll they'll rob you of aliveness.
Speaker 1: The next thing you know, you're in your grave.
Speaker 2: Well, because you you admitted all these little language like
Speaker 2: we have dead zones in our lives, Like you really
Speaker 2: like this theme theme of death?
Speaker 1: I've a little far.
Speaker 2: No, but it's creative. I'm into it. Okay, I'm into it.
Speaker 2: I'm super into weird shit. I love that stuff. Yep.
Speaker 2: So yeah, like you you know, I love it. You
Speaker 2: call it you know, like you say you need to
Speaker 2: diagnose the dead zones in your life?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, And this I realized to a positive
Speaker 1: psychology practitioner for coach is like, yeah, okay, we there's
Speaker 1: a time and a place to identify things in your
Speaker 1: life that are currently working. Yeah, obviously do more of
Speaker 1: those things, like you know, amplify what's good.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Also, I do think it's helpful to really have that
Speaker 1: sort of diagnosis about like where have I flatlined in
Speaker 1: my life? And you know how we have all these
Speaker 1: domains in life, right, so like there's your career, there's
Speaker 1: your social life, there is your like personal growth area,
Speaker 1: fun and recreation, romance, you know, you name it right
Speaker 1: when you are able to kind of look at each
Speaker 1: section and diagnose and go, you know, things are generally
Speaker 1: okay over here that's fine, or like that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of I'm okay to not address that one right now,
Speaker 1: But whoa this one? Like maybe it's recreation. I like
Speaker 1: it's it's dead on a rival, Like I really need
Speaker 1: to work on this area. That's the helpful part about
Speaker 1: self awareness is like really zeroing in because you can
Speaker 1: have a general sense of back to languishing or just
Speaker 1: the general sense of with life where you don't like
Speaker 1: I don't know something's missing, or I think I want
Speaker 1: something more, or is this all there is? Or all
Speaker 1: the other existential winners, and so sometimes you just have
Speaker 1: to laser in and be like, oh, if it's recreation, well,
Speaker 1: then what's the thing you could do, like pick up
Speaker 1: a hobby again? What that look like if you try
Speaker 1: that this weekend?
Speaker 2: Is it okay to just be in moods? It's okay
Speaker 2: to have moods of dead, Like you always have to
Speaker 2: feel pressure to like be happy, Like what if you
Speaker 2: have a day where you're like, I'm dead today? Yeah,
Speaker 2: can you ever just allow yourself to just do it?
Speaker 1: I think so. I think it's like the human condition.
Speaker 1: In fact, I think it's so beautiful about appreciating what
Speaker 1: the good days because they're contrasted to the bad days.
Speaker 2: You don't have to be astonishingly alive every day, right, No.
Speaker 1: I feel also that that just a tire. It is exhausting,
Speaker 1: it's tiring. It's also unsustainable. Even if you kind of
Speaker 1: think you get there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when I talk about like the opposite quadrant and
Speaker 1: what the work I do of the dead zone, you
Speaker 1: know it is being astonishingly alive. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: that it's a really big frickin sandbox, like big area
Speaker 1: where you could be any quadrant right, Like you could
Speaker 1: be at the top right edge of it, maxing it out. Okay,
Speaker 1: well hold on for that ride. Good on you. But
Speaker 1: like for most of us, we're just going to kind
Speaker 1: of land over here, and sometimes we're going to dance
Speaker 1: around the others and like, welcome it all, right, yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, welcome it all. And yeah, I'm very Buddhist about that,
Speaker 2: for sure. I'm more Buddhist than stoic. I think I
Speaker 2: am too, but I do see some benefits to soicism
Speaker 2: for sure. Can we get a zoom in on your tattoo? Oh,
Speaker 2: say an hour glass?
Speaker 1: It's this skull. I don't know how this is going
Speaker 1: to happen. I could walk up to a camera if
Speaker 1: you'd like. Okay. Melissa Nuniez, she's designed my logo four
Speaker 1: thousand mondays with the sun setting, and so she did
Speaker 1: this one as well. And I got this the week
Speaker 1: that I recorded the audio book for my book, because
Speaker 1: I founded to forever commemorate it on my skin and
Speaker 1: remind myself you're gonna die.
Speaker 2: Wow, it's amazing that do you have that reminder on
Speaker 2: your body. I'm so interested in all this amazing coaching
Speaker 2: work you do. I've got interest in coaching recently. You know,
Speaker 2: you say that some of your most motivated clients are
Speaker 2: those that have had a near death experience. And I'm
Speaker 2: really interested in the science or near death experiences because
Speaker 2: Abraham Maslow talks about what's the phrase to use, the
Speaker 2: second delfe or something like that, Yeah, post mortem life.
Speaker 2: He calls it the post mortem life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have learned maybe through your book in
Speaker 1: Transcend or somewhere else about his heart attack. And he
Speaker 1: has a quote that I'd be a better person if
Speaker 1: I had memorized. But just that it's riveting, right, this
Speaker 1: idea of like this river of my life will never
Speaker 1: be the same. It's so beautiful now and acknowledging like
Speaker 1: my life is just not the same now. How could
Speaker 1: I see like almost how exquisite it is without seeing
Speaker 1: death and experiencing the almostness of it. Very broadly paraphrasing
Speaker 1: mister Maslow's. So I am also fascinated and I have
Speaker 1: envy for people who have had a brush with death,
Speaker 1: because like, this is the thing I take most serious,
Speaker 1: and I am the idea that you can have even
Speaker 1: more of a sense of that awakening like that, I
Speaker 1: know who is it. I don't think it was yelling,
Speaker 1: but someone else has said the roar of awakening. I
Speaker 1: just love that phrase. I love the notion of it.
Speaker 1: And so then I just think, Okay, well, what's the
Speaker 1: next best thing other than remember that movie Flatliners from
Speaker 1: the eighties. We're dating ourselves here, But other than trying
Speaker 1: to rig death and then.
Speaker 2: Come back remember that, Yeah.
Speaker 1: A safer way to do it. I guess it's just
Speaker 1: to research things they know to be true and maybe
Speaker 1: try and live from that. And I've just found it fascinating.
Speaker 1: Like I know, recent guests here on your show was
Speaker 1: a maket based on fear of other people's opinions, and
Speaker 1: that to me is one of the best gifts ever
Speaker 1: that I try to learn about vicariously from people who've
Speaker 1: had a brush with death, because once they've kind of come.
Speaker 4: Back from being like we have no fucks to give
Speaker 4: exactly like, yeah, I must have had.
Speaker 2: A near death experience that I didn't know about, because
Speaker 2: I have zero focks to give.
Speaker 1: Well, hang on, this is like a newish thing, because.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you get there? Used to be a
Speaker 2: people pleaser?
Speaker 1: What happened?
Speaker 2: I maybe I had something I don't know about.
Speaker 1: Well, we need to do some sort of testing. We
Speaker 1: need to find out, because I.
Speaker 2: Think just age I got to in my forties and
Speaker 2: I'm like, come on, I can't waste my time like.
Speaker 1: This, right, Why do I care anymore?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Saying yes to that thing or yeah, answering that.
Speaker 2: You well, why why should I be? Why should I
Speaker 2: care about what people think of me? Who I don't
Speaker 2: even like? That's what I'm saying, well said, you know, yep.
Speaker 1: I tell the story in my book about this woman
Speaker 1: Shay and Palm Springs, and she runs a nonprofit for
Speaker 1: cancer survivors of breast cancer. And she was going through
Speaker 1: twenty two weeks in a row of her chemotherapy, and
Speaker 1: she had a blank journal and she drew a circle
Speaker 1: and that I have affectionately, of course now called SHA's circle.
Speaker 1: And she said she was really intentional. She's like, I'm
Speaker 1: going to come out of this thing, and my life's
Speaker 1: going to be so much better in the following ways.
Speaker 1: And she wrote about the things she wanted in her
Speaker 1: life inside the circle, and that included people and ways
Speaker 1: of being and I don't know, activities and then maybe
Speaker 1: more poignantly and like interestingly, she had a crap ton
Speaker 1: of stuff outside the circle, like people that were kind
Speaker 1: of toxic, like I don't think I need to make
Speaker 1: time for you, you know, I may be related to
Speaker 1: you or whatnot. Or for her it was being a pleaser,
Speaker 1: which is why I remember this. She's like, I don't
Speaker 1: need to say yes to your committee. I don't need
Speaker 1: to be obliged to do that thing. I've seen the
Speaker 1: break of death and she doesn't talk like this, but
Speaker 1: but I now know I don't have to do this
Speaker 1: because I'm going to live this special, precious life. She
Speaker 1: called it getting a second chance.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, like how right?
Speaker 1: Like the let's all pretend that we've been given the
Speaker 1: postwartum life in a fresh second chance today to be
Speaker 1: like if I just got out of the hospital, and
Speaker 1: this is the exercise I do with myself regularly. If
Speaker 1: I was in a coma and I came out of
Speaker 1: the hospital and I came home. What's the stuff that
Speaker 1: I would really prioritize and what's the stuff that I
Speaker 1: would just be like, Oh, it just doesn't matter anymore,
Speaker 1: including maybe other people's opinions, or including tasks, or including
Speaker 1: the toiling things. We don't really we're wasting our time
Speaker 1: on I'd want to go pursue some dreams, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I mean this is an inspiring conversation.
Speaker 1: It's a grim Reaper can do for us, not a.
Speaker 2: Down Yeah yeah, I mean no, it's what Jodi Wellman,
Speaker 2: are you the grim Reaper? I hope not pr hope.
Speaker 2: I don't know how I feel about that. I hope
Speaker 2: I have many years to go. Uh can you just
Speaker 2: confirm that that is true? Oh no, oh my godd,
Speaker 2: I'm too neurotic for that to say. Yes.
Speaker 1: Oh, we're arranging extra Mondays for you as a result
Speaker 1: of this conversation.
Speaker 2: I get extra credit.
Speaker 1: Oh you've scored at least two Mondays.
Speaker 2: Which is many Mondays from now right?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. What What's I'm like, what
Speaker 2: are we believing that you were part of the groom?
Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't like cut it past you what's okay,
Speaker 2: what's a really realistic way for people with busy lives
Speaker 2: to incorporate these ideas into their lives? I mean, what
Speaker 2: can they do? I mean people are going crazy these
Speaker 2: days with the work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you asked it, because I love the idea. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I'll go like in two directions. One is just
Speaker 1: going to be always, always, always my my real kind
Speaker 1: of raw raw for just like start counting your mondays,
Speaker 1: like like, let that be the baseline of your momentumry practice.
Speaker 1: You don't have to get tattoos, you don't have to
Speaker 1: just count your mondays and keep the countdown timer poof. Okay, good,
Speaker 1: that's done. Okay, Now this idea about living and astonishing
Speaker 1: the live life without it breaking the bank or like
Speaker 1: the time that you are already time starved you don't
Speaker 1: have enough time, and or maybe even very frankly the
Speaker 1: inclination I love so much that the life worth living
Speaker 1: for most of us is this deliberate sprinkling in and
Speaker 1: then the accumulation of stuff that is just usually sweet
Speaker 1: and simple, and it's often like free, which I mean
Speaker 1: that works, free is affordable. So I love this exercise
Speaker 1: that I'll do with groups or people where it's like,
Speaker 1: write out thirty things that make you happy, that bring
Speaker 1: you joy, however you want to define it. We could
Speaker 1: split hairs over joy fulfillment meaning whatever, but just what
Speaker 1: lights you up, what makes you feel alive, and even
Speaker 1: the teeniest, tiniest way, and they need to be attainable.
Speaker 1: Things you can't just say like, well, when I'm on
Speaker 1: a cruise in the Mediterranean, like that a little bit extreme.
Speaker 1: Don't not do that. But for most people, the things
Speaker 1: that they will write down are things that are so
Speaker 1: extraordinarily accessible in our days that we just don't make
Speaker 1: time for. Right. So a woman I met this morning,
Speaker 1: she was like, I'm going to get my daughter from
Speaker 1: her school today. I'm going to take her to the
Speaker 1: playground and she goes. I don't know why, but I
Speaker 1: always have this idea like I wanted to be the
Speaker 1: kind of mom that brought a book to the playground,
Speaker 1: and I'm doing that today for the first time ever.
Speaker 1: Because she just goes and sits, and she's like, I
Speaker 1: guess I'm a good mom. Might sometimes watch my kid,
Speaker 1: which I guess is important, but she's like, I have
Speaker 1: to scroll or whatever. I'm just sort of sitting aimlessly.
Speaker 1: She's bringing a book, and that for her is just
Speaker 1: going to be this again, free again. She's already at
Speaker 1: the park with her kid. Why not immerse yourself? And
Speaker 1: in her instance, it's just going to be this fiction
Speaker 1: book where she's going to read part of a chapter
Speaker 1: and that's just going to make that twenty minute increment
Speaker 1: of her life that much better than if she had
Speaker 1: just maybe zoned out, and maybe zoning out for some
Speaker 1: of us back just squandering is like that's the thing
Speaker 1: you might need in that moment. But what about those
Speaker 1: special things where it's like taking the dog for a walk,
Speaker 1: or being conscious and like sitting outside and having your coffee,
Speaker 1: or like, can I be nosy? Like what are some little, tiny,
Speaker 1: little sweet things that you just you can't explain it,
Speaker 1: You don't have to explain it, but it just brings
Speaker 1: you little bits of joy.
Speaker 2: There are there are pretty they are pretty small things.
Speaker 2: It doesn't take much to bring me joy. In fact,
Speaker 2: the big things overwhelm me. But no, like definitely drinking
Speaker 2: good coffee, like definitely, like on a rainy thunders day,
Speaker 2: thunderous Is that a word? Thunderful? Thunderful? Do you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, delicious day a day where there's a
Speaker 2: lot of thunder and rain, like I love just snuggling
Speaker 2: up in my bed and reading a good psychological novel.
Speaker 2: Like little things like that I feel like make my
Speaker 2: life worth living. Was I supposed to say something grandiose?
Speaker 1: That is perfect answer, and it's also still a little contingent.
Speaker 1: The weather needs to be thundry, but maybe it's seizing
Speaker 1: it when that comes right. It's like knowing the things
Speaker 1: that make you feel alive. And that's another thing.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I'll ask groups like what is what what makes you
Speaker 1: feel most alive? And that that can be an intimidating question.
Speaker 1: So sometimes it's just what are some of the the
Speaker 1: top few things?
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know if those things I mentioned to
Speaker 2: make me feel most alive? I feel like that's a
Speaker 2: different question. He is a different question.
Speaker 1: You're right, yeah, this is now like person, But now
Speaker 1: can I ask, like, what is something that No matter what.
Speaker 2: The most alive thing is a little bit different. So
Speaker 2: when I give a keynote talk, I feel very alive.
Speaker 2: You know. I have like maybe three thousand people in
Speaker 2: a room like listening to me, and I'm able to
Speaker 2: express my passion for my life's purpose to and get
Speaker 2: instant feedback. There's something so live feeling, a live feeling
Speaker 2: about that I make up words, you know, I do
Speaker 2: like verbal ju jitsu, you know, because my brain's not
Speaker 2: functioning properly. But yeah, do that makes sense? The kind
Speaker 2: of livens Oh totally our teaching class.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well you're mentors.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I go on, So like these are your like
Speaker 4: a live spots and I'm already making an assumption that
Speaker 4: your life is already fortunately you know, sprinkled.
Speaker 1: With a lot of those moments where you get to
Speaker 1: feel alive. But maybe there's an aha, Like for me,
Speaker 1: it's also speaking, and so it's like, well, how do
Speaker 1: we rig our lives? Quite frankly, like we're all into
Speaker 1: hacks or whatever, like okay, this is a freaking game,
Speaker 1: Like how do we just make it so it's just
Speaker 1: that much better and a live while we're here? So
Speaker 1: for me, it's like, okay, more talking on the stage,
Speaker 1: and for you, maybe maybe I'm going to put words
Speaker 1: in your mouth, but just by wave example, it could
Speaker 1: be like I need to make sure I'm consciously mentoring
Speaker 1: three students or people in this period of time rather
Speaker 1: than just one because I love it so much, Like
Speaker 1: why am I not doing more of it? It's tuning
Speaker 1: into that stuff to say what makes you alive? And
Speaker 1: how often are you doing it? Because you know it's sad.
Speaker 1: And this is the part that I think is just
Speaker 1: partly the way we get swept up in the current
Speaker 1: of life is that many people, when I ask this question,
Speaker 1: they'll identify something that they just haven't done in a while.
Speaker 1: You know, it's often creative pursuits. I know you're super creative,
Speaker 1: Like people will talk about, oh, it's like when I'm painting,
Speaker 1: or you appreciate this one even more. I did a
Speaker 1: workshop last year where a guy was like, was this
Speaker 1: the whole team? And he's like, the number one thing?
Speaker 1: Of course he was willing to answer. He goes doing
Speaker 1: improv and the group was like, oh, wow, really been
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what, wow, great, when was the last
Speaker 1: time you did it? And just let this answer do
Speaker 1: the thing It did for me too. He said, Oh
Speaker 1: it's my ten years and I just I feel overwhelmed
Speaker 1: with this idea, like we have life stuffed inside us.
Speaker 1: True and the fact that it's been a decade since
Speaker 1: this guy's done a thing that makes him feel most alive,
Speaker 1: you know what a travesty And that, to me is
Speaker 1: an example of not wanting to get to the end
Speaker 1: with all these kohl woodus, which is how my mom died.
Speaker 1: That I saw in this notion of we still have
Speaker 1: time to do the improve or to go in glass blow.
Speaker 2: Well, in that case, can you just tell tell your
Speaker 2: friend the Grim Reaper to just chill? Can you give
Speaker 2: this to the grim Reaper for me knowing?
Speaker 1: Because if he chilled, it would make a problem worse.
Speaker 1: And you know this, You know this more than most
Speaker 1: of us because if all your research in the areas
Speaker 1: you're so, you know, multidisciplined like you. You know, if
Speaker 1: if Grim Reaper was like I'm taking a break, I'm
Speaker 1: on a sabbatical, we would not do the thing right.
Speaker 1: We would not We would not live it up, you
Speaker 1: know what we would do what we would continue to
Speaker 1: take it for granted. Wow, we would squander that that
Speaker 1: therein lies. I think the problem, right is that we
Speaker 1: live a life that, like it was Nietzsche, like manage
Speaker 1: the only animal who has to be encouraged to live,
Speaker 1: and we have dreams and hopes, and I think many
Speaker 1: of us are just quite frankly scared to press the
Speaker 1: go button.
Speaker 2: Yes, I and yes, And I think what do I think?
Speaker 2: I hate the idea that like, you're squandering your life
Speaker 2: if you're not always fully alive. I think that the
Speaker 2: purpose of life is to experience it. And I think
Speaker 2: that you know, kind of being. I think people could
Speaker 2: be too hard of themselves that if they're not at
Speaker 2: every moment like serving a greater purpose, yes, they're squandering
Speaker 2: their life. And I guess it's a little bit of
Speaker 2: a pet peeve of mine. How do you reconcize we're.
Speaker 1: So spot on together?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: This is back to that relativity of what astonishingly live
Speaker 1: means to each person. And I look at it like
Speaker 1: in the two quadrants, right, So two axes that make
Speaker 1: quadrants like living wider with vitality, so more of a
Speaker 1: hedonic kind of alignment to well being, and then deeper
Speaker 1: with meaning. We're of the eu demonic and we're going
Speaker 1: to have some people, you know, could really care less
Speaker 1: about the deeper meaningful stuff. And it's all like rock
Speaker 1: on party and vice versa. Could be more important to
Speaker 1: some people where they're like I just want to volunteer
Speaker 1: at the church, and I don't really care about going
Speaker 1: out or whatever. The thing is so based on each
Speaker 1: person's knees. I think that where all this nets out,
Speaker 1: I believe is are you experiencing your life to the
Speaker 1: degree to which you feel good about it versus the
Speaker 1: nichelin because I think we all have that in our knowing.
Speaker 1: I know I do because as a kind of homebody introvert,
Speaker 1: like my default is going to be back under that
Speaker 1: blanket on the couch, right, and I have to be
Speaker 1: the one to remind myself to live very regularly, and
Speaker 1: I actually get prescriptive about it, knowing, okay, I need
Speaker 1: to be you know, social in this dose each month,
Speaker 1: do a new thing this time, this much each month,
Speaker 1: go to a restaurant this much each month. And that
Speaker 1: to me is like I'll always recalibrate it. But I
Speaker 1: think that in between all that is an example of
Speaker 1: like all sorts of rest, which I don't call languishing.
Speaker 1: I call that like I love my life in those moments,
Speaker 1: and I also know I love it when I also
Speaker 1: incorporate a little bit more. So, I think each one
Speaker 1: of us needs to do that honest work and say,
Speaker 1: do you have the niggling that, Oh you know what,
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm really participating in my life as
Speaker 1: much as I know I would thrive if I was
Speaker 1: doing more of I.
Speaker 2: Just got an idea. Yeah, yeah, for an article. Ow
Speaker 2: all right, Oh what's about? I'll tell you as soon
Speaker 2: that right, Okay, here we go. Here's the title. Okay,
Speaker 2: don't confuse languishing for rest. No one someone's are in
Speaker 2: that yet it needs to be written, do you? You
Speaker 2: bring up so many good points, and your book is wonderful,
Speaker 2: and I just want to congratulate you on it because look,
Speaker 2: I know how much the book means to you. I
Speaker 2: know how much work you've put into it. I've seen
Speaker 2: that firsthand. And I know how passionate you are about
Speaker 2: these ideas. And I have nothing but positive like I'm
Speaker 2: rooting for you energy. So I just want to end
Speaker 2: the interview by saying that I'm definitely rooting for you
Speaker 2: to live your best life.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you rooting for me with my wake up
Speaker 1: in the morning Disney voice energy.
Speaker 2: Yes, boy, I love it. Maybe more people could use
Speaker 2: that voice in their head.
Speaker 1: We actually need that, like the Elmo button or whatever
Speaker 1: the thing you in the morning, just to press that
Speaker 1: is maybe the alarm to wake up to. But thank
Speaker 1: you for your kind words.
Speaker 2: Thank you for being on my show.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Time will spend