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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind from how stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, he wasn't as stuffable your mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas Juan

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna put you in a scenario here and asked

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Speaker 1: to the listeners put themselves in the same scenario. Imagine

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Speaker 1: a stranger appears before you call Finn stranger like very

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Speaker 1: thin and dressed and say, let's say dark dark robe. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this isn't sounding so great. Well well wait wait till

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Speaker 1: wait to hear this. This fell out because he makes

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Speaker 1: an offer this if you would like, and this is

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Speaker 1: purely optional, I will tell you to the day, to

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Speaker 1: the minute, even when you will die. I have this

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Speaker 1: information here in my in my file, and I will

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Speaker 1: share this information with you. All you have to do

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Speaker 1: is ask would you would you would you like to know?

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Speaker 1: Would you would you want this date and this time

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Speaker 1: to mark in your calendar? Absolutely not? No, No, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's the kind of mystery you want to remain

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Speaker 1: a mystery? Right? Do you think I want to obsess

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Speaker 1: on that for the rest of my life every single moment?

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Speaker 1: Well that's one argument. Yeah, Robert, do you think I

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Speaker 1: really want to well, yeah, I mean to know exactly

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Speaker 1: when you're gonna die. It would it would be helpful

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Speaker 1: in some ways, right, You know, if you've been putting

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Speaker 1: on planning, state planning, um, if there are certain projects

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Speaker 1: you've been putting off, it might be nice to know

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Speaker 1: you actually have time enough to complete them, and or

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Speaker 1: if you should should maybe shoot for instead of writing

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Speaker 1: the Great American novel, maybe you would just try and

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Speaker 1: write the Great American short story or the Great American

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Speaker 1: haiku h depending on what the forecast is, or yeah,

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Speaker 1: a little fly fiction. Yeah. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: you would conceive it would be then be living your

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Speaker 1: life in fear, ticking down ever closer to that moment

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Speaker 1: when this same individual in the dark robes and the

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Speaker 1: deathly thin hands might reappear and come to collect. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You might even say that you're so preoccupied with this

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Speaker 1: inevitability that now has a date on it, that you

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Speaker 1: could do nothing but think about it. So any sort

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Speaker 1: of efforts at writing a haiku or anything else would

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Speaker 1: be completely hamstrung. Yeah, you would just have that date

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Speaker 1: taking in your mind. You just every and even say

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Speaker 1: it's say it's did you like two thousand eight. You

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Speaker 1: know that's nice, that's nicely far out. Yeah that that

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Speaker 1: even then you would hear you'd hear about two thousand

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Speaker 1: and would it would it would just mess you up?

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Speaker 1: Or even just to hear do you like thirteenth every

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Speaker 1: time it comes around? So I can see the value

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Speaker 1: and not hearing the thin man out on this particular case. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: and this plays into the idea of why we we

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Speaker 1: exercise a kind of version of this in the form

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Speaker 1: of what's been called the Ostrich effect um. Also, ignorance

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Speaker 1: is bliss because there are just some things we don't

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Speaker 1: want to face, and its human nature all of us.

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Speaker 1: Do us do this even if you think that, like

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Speaker 1: you're the most self aware, self actualized person on the earth,

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Speaker 1: there is something that you're avoiding, right, I mean, when

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Speaker 1: it comes to our awareness of the world, all of

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Speaker 1: us live inside of a carefully maintained and constructed worldview.

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Speaker 1: And that worldview is not going to in the same

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Speaker 1: way that you'll have a video game world that that

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Speaker 1: may incorporate some aspects of reality and some aspects of

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Speaker 1: actual physics, but ignore other real life rules. You know,

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Speaker 1: like the character jumps off a building and he'll still

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Speaker 1: die as one would. But but maybe he can run

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Speaker 1: exceedingly fast without you know, running out of steam. That

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Speaker 1: kind of think all of us create this worldview, maintain

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Speaker 1: this worldview that is going to ignore certain risks, incorporate

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Speaker 1: some other risks, totally exaggerate other risks, and uh and

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Speaker 1: and underplay still other risks to your everyday life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: even if that means that you could have some really

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Speaker 1: crappy outcomes, say to your health as a result. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk about that in a bit. But hey, what if

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Speaker 1: what if the Finnman could give you that date. I'm

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Speaker 1: we've played with that idea of just you know, this

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Speaker 1: apparition showing up. But turns out that researchers, scientists have

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Speaker 1: actually come up with an idea that is a kind

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Speaker 1: of death test. Yeah. Yeah, in this case that it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be a medieval embodiment of death that would be

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Speaker 1: showing up and and offering you the information. It might

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Speaker 1: be a little contraction that you wear on your wrist.

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Speaker 1: Physicist at the United Kingdoms Lancaster University developed this test,

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Speaker 1: which uses painless lasers to analyze endothelial cells. Uh. These

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Speaker 1: are the cells that lying blood vessels under the skin

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Speaker 1: and are a possible health indicator. So the basically this

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Speaker 1: laser analysis would look at the state of these cells

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Speaker 1: and would be able to extrapolate what your general health

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Speaker 1: is right now and how much time you have. Now.

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Speaker 1: This is not a watch you can pick up that

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Speaker 1: your local store. This technology is not ready to roll out,

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Speaker 1: but it's sort of a road sign um on the

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Speaker 1: highway to a possible future in which we see more

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Speaker 1: and more of wearable technology, implanted technology which gives us

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Speaker 1: some measure of real time information about the state of

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Speaker 1: our health. Yeah, here's another example of it, and this

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Speaker 1: comes from the Institute for Molecular Medicine in Finland, and

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Speaker 1: they would look at the level of a particular biomar

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Speaker 1: biomarker which the biomarker could indicate a patient's risk of

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Speaker 1: disease or a likely response to treatment. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: cholesterol levels are measured to assess the risk of heart disease,

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Speaker 1: right that could be a biomarker. So what they did

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Speaker 1: is they took blood samples from over seventeen thousand generally

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Speaker 1: healthy people, they screen screen them for more than a

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Speaker 1: hundred different biomarkers, and then those people were monitored over

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Speaker 1: a five year period. So in that time, six hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty four people died of a range of illnesses

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Speaker 1: and diseases and put in cancer in cardiovascular disease, and

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Speaker 1: the scientists had discovered that those people all had similar

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Speaker 1: levels of for biomarkers. So that's where it really becomes

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Speaker 1: much more laser focused in terms of what are we

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Speaker 1: looking for here and what can predict death in the

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Speaker 1: next five years. And that research that they were doing

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Speaker 1: that was actually just another subset of research that had

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Speaker 1: been ongoing by Estonian researchers. They initially made this link

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Speaker 1: with it about I think ten thousand people, but they

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Speaker 1: were so skeptical about the results that they went ahead

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Speaker 1: and said to the folks of her at the Molecular

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Speaker 1: Medicine in Finland, hey, do you want to, you know,

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Speaker 1: try this out and see if you get similar results.

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Speaker 1: Well they got identical findings, which points to this idea

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Speaker 1: that we are getting closer and closer to this idea

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Speaker 1: of hey, can you check out my biomarkers and let

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Speaker 1: me know what's going to go on in the next

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Speaker 1: five years. I like the idea of having even almost

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Speaker 1: like I can imagine a future we have all your

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Speaker 1: wearable computers that are going on your implants, your little

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Speaker 1: handheld device, your little holographic displays that are letting you

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Speaker 1: and others know about various stats in your life. And

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Speaker 1: I can imagine every morning you call up that sort

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Speaker 1: of holographic death embodiment and you just sort of check

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Speaker 1: in with death and find out what the forecast is,

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Speaker 1: or you think that's how they're going to market it.

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Speaker 1: You know what, death watch, Death doesn't have to You

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Speaker 1: can choose which form death takes. Death can take out

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Speaker 1: like a classic medieval mode. I think that's what I'd

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Speaker 1: go for. But death can be uh, you know, an

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Speaker 1: attractive man or woman. Death can death avatar petty boop, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: hello kitty. I mean, you name it. But but then

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Speaker 1: I wonder too. In the same way that you know what,

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Speaker 1: if you're like me, you're always realizing for the first

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Speaker 1: time that there's something on your phone that is making

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Speaker 1: a little pop up like you didn't know that you're

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Speaker 1: that this news app isn't is somehow turned itself on

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Speaker 1: so that it needs to inform you when there's a

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Speaker 1: news update, and then you have to go and turn

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Speaker 1: it off in your settings. We end up in that

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Speaker 1: scenario with this where you realize, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to hear from death every day. I don't want

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Speaker 1: my normal check up. I would rather just live in

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Speaker 1: ignorance of this. I'm going to turn this off, even

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Speaker 1: though all the technology here is at my fingertips. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean you could be like, hey, Siri, what's what's

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Speaker 1: my death watching today? Hold on a second while I

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Speaker 1: check your bio markers. You know, it's like you could

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Speaker 1: you could do that constantly and just drive yourself nuts,

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Speaker 1: or you could just be like I, like you said,

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Speaker 1: I am just going to toss this uh into the

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Speaker 1: trash and not think about it because I don't want

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Speaker 1: to know. So this is one of those cases where

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Speaker 1: knowledge maybe isn't power or perceived power. Well, knowledge can

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Speaker 1: be power in the long run, right, but not knowledge

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Speaker 1: in the short run. Like if you tell me I'm

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Speaker 1: going to die in five years, uh, that conceivably could

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Speaker 1: make the next five years, you know, a little more streamlined,

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Speaker 1: but it's going to really crush me right now. So

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Speaker 1: I don't want to hear it, right, Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, this is basically like

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Speaker 1: knowledge in the short term. In the long term in

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Speaker 1: whether or not it just sucks, and nothing could probably

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Speaker 1: suck more than hearing hey, guess what you have an STD? Right? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I bring this up because it's related. And we've

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Speaker 1: just finished talking a lot about about syphilis. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we went into some of the you know, the the

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Speaker 1: the shame that is often associated with STDs uh, in

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Speaker 1: addition to the varying treatment you know available. But say that,

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Speaker 1: say someone wills to tell you, hey, you have syphilis today,

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Speaker 1: that is easily treated. The sooner, you know, the better.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, they're still going to come

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Speaker 1: with a lot of shame and then social anxiety over oh,

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Speaker 1: well I have syphilis. How did I get cipils? Soon?

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Speaker 1: Did I get syphilis too? And am I a bad

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Speaker 1: person in some sense because I have it? Yeah? And

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Speaker 1: but you know, some people might be information averse to that.

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Speaker 1: And some people, I mean a group of eighteen to

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Speaker 1: twenty four year olds, because this is as we know

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Speaker 1: from our research, this is the group that tends to

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Speaker 1: get STDs most. And in fact, I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: the HBO Girls show in which the character Hannah gets

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Speaker 1: HPV and so it turns out to be the sort

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Speaker 1: of more like a moment where she realizes that all

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Speaker 1: adventurous women will have an STD eventually, right, so she

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Speaker 1: kind of weaves that into her um her worldview. But

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Speaker 1: not everybody does that. Not everybody is like, I need

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Speaker 1: a plot point from my show. I'm gonna go see

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Speaker 1: the doctor and see if I have an STD. In fact,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people would rather not know that information.

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Speaker 1: And again that's sort of the z and sort of

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Speaker 1: the short term thinking when over the long term term thinking.

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Speaker 1: Is that basic human failure to value the long term

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Speaker 1: view over the short term of view. Yeah, and nothing

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Speaker 1: bears this out more than this this neat little study

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Speaker 1: about STDs and information aversion. And the study was conducted

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Speaker 1: by Josh Tassof, who was an economist at Claremont Graduate University,

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Speaker 1: and Anonda Ganghoulian, Associate professor of accounting at Claremont McKenna College. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's basically the same scenario we talked about at

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Speaker 1: the top of the screen. You imagine a thin man

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Speaker 1: in a row comes up and says, hey, I have

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Speaker 1: a file here, except he asked you would you like

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Speaker 1: to know if you have her pies? I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is the basic scenario there. And indeed, if this individual

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Speaker 1: were to come to me and asked me, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I would say, yes, let me know, tell tell

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Speaker 1: me if I have her pies. That would be some

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Speaker 1: good information for me to have at this point. All right,

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Speaker 1: So they kind of did that, except for the lap

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Speaker 1: coats on right. Yes, and it's and it's framed in

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Speaker 1: an actual study. Yeah, And they asked university students whether

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Speaker 1: or not they wanted to get tested for her pie

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Speaker 1: simplex virus. Now, they talked to them about the two

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Speaker 1: different types, the first type being the kind that just

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Speaker 1: caused cold stores. I'm sure everybody's familiar with HSV one, yes,

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Speaker 1: the second type being the one that causes genital stores.

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Speaker 1: Now here's the rup. They sent them along with little

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Speaker 1: pictures to identify the genital stores and the cold sores,

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Speaker 1: so that they had a very clear under standing of

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Speaker 1: the differences. And moreover, I feel like those photos probably

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Speaker 1: insided in them a bit of fear. Right, these are

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Speaker 1: your these are these are not your This is not

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Speaker 1: your herpes medication. Uh, you know, person walking in a field,

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Speaker 1: television spot. This is the the full on web md slash,

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Speaker 1: Google image search herpes dive. Yeah, that you did not

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Speaker 1: really want to see, but you saw. So they were

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Speaker 1: then told that a blood test could find out if

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Speaker 1: they had either form of a virus and then test

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Speaker 1: off and ganglie. They designed the experiment to eliminate any reason,

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Speaker 1: sort of extraneous reason that someone might decline to get information.

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Speaker 1: So they wanted to make sure that they weren't declining

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Speaker 1: the tests because they didn't want to have their blood drawn. Right,

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Speaker 1: So that's one thing that they said to him, Hey,

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Speaker 1: we can have all the students have their blood drawn,

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Speaker 1: but if a student chooses not to get tested, that

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Speaker 1: they would draw just tendency seeds of their blood and

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Speaker 1: in front of them, they would pour it down the sink. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's it's not the fear of the needle that's

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Speaker 1: playing into this, because you're gonna get stuck with the needle.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna draw your blood. But if you say no,

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Speaker 1: then all right, we'll just pour your blood down the sink. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The second thing is they made sure to let them

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Speaker 1: know that all of this was confidential, so that they

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Speaker 1: weren't worried about the results being shared with anyone else. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to be announced to the whole group

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Speaker 1: it's not going to be published in the study. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not it's not a fear of the needle. It's

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Speaker 1: not a fear of public shaming. It's just the fear

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Speaker 1: of the information that they are wrangling with. And to

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Speaker 1: avoid the information, to opt out of the information is

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Speaker 1: a ten dollar feet Yeah, that's the third thing. They

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Speaker 1: were like, if you don't want to get tested, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to actually pay us ten dollars not

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Speaker 1: to test you. Yeah. So it's like the man in

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Speaker 1: the robe come up and say, hey, if you give

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Speaker 1: me ten dollars, I'll not tell you if you have

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Speaker 1: her pies. Again. They they structured it this way because

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Speaker 1: they wanted to make sure that it was very clear

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Speaker 1: that the people were burying their heads in the sand

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Speaker 1: here like an ostrich or. That's always the idea, right,

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Speaker 1: And there's a price tag on ignorance here. They have

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Speaker 1: to actually purchase the ignorance. It's not the passive ignorance

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Speaker 1: of I don't want to know what that credit card

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Speaker 1: bill is. I'm just going to ignore that envelope it.

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Speaker 1: So it's not the I'm just I don't want to

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Speaker 1: deal with that that that the email from my mother

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Speaker 1: in law. So I'm just gonna let it set there

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Speaker 1: on open. No, you have to actively pay ten dollars

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Speaker 1: to avoid the results of the herpes test. I pay

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Speaker 1: ten dollars to avoid my mother in laws, you know. Alright.

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Speaker 1: So while only five percent avoided the hs V one test,

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Speaker 1: three times as many avoided testing for the nastier form

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Speaker 1: of herbie. So here here we have very direct conclusions

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Speaker 1: that people were saying three times as much, I don't

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Speaker 1: want this, I don't want to know, even though this

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Speaker 1: could help them in terms of their healthcare down the

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Speaker 1: road the long term, right, yeah, and even I mean

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Speaker 1: the kind of the immediate short term, like the not

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Speaker 1: very long term, like your immediate um, you know, sexual activity.

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Speaker 1: Your immediate health is involved in all this. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's really troubling to to to read the findings

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Speaker 1: in this study. Yeah. And when they, when you actually

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Speaker 1: asked them, said well, why didn't you why didn't you

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Speaker 1: want this? Why did you opt out of this information?

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Speaker 1: Why did you pay to remain ignorant? Mostly they would say, well,

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Speaker 1: I just I didn't need that added anxiety. I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to worry with it with the added stress of

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Speaker 1: knowing potentially knowing that I have this this illness, that

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Speaker 1: I have her piece. Yeah, I feel like it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like that that people are like, I already have

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Speaker 1: a ton of existential dread and anxiety. I don't want

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Speaker 1: this on top of it. And it might seem to

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Speaker 1: to some people like I can't believe they made this decision.

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Speaker 1: But again, think in your own life, maybe it wasn't

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Speaker 1: an STD test or something else that you were avoiding

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Speaker 1: because you felt like it was just the weight of

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Speaker 1: that one more piece of knowledge might be the breaking point. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's comfort in and we keep saying ignorance,

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Speaker 1: but I want to deframe it a little a little

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Speaker 1: more compassionately. There's there's comfort in ambiguity. It's it's almost

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Speaker 1: the comfort of a quantum state. You know, you don't

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Speaker 1: open that box, you then the cat is simultaneously dead

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Speaker 1: and alive, and you can cling to the possibility that

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Speaker 1: Shoulder's cat is alive, and so by not by opting out,

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Speaker 1: they're keeping their um, their state of herpes infection in

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Speaker 1: a quantum state. And you can take comfort in that

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Speaker 1: quantum state because if I don't know for sure, then

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Speaker 1: there's still this chance, then I'm good and I feel

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Speaker 1: like every I love the way you describe. I think

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Speaker 1: that's perfect, that quantum state. Everybody has experienced that, whether

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Speaker 1: or not it's a test that you just took in school, right,

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Speaker 1: and you're you're worried that you didn't pass it or

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Speaker 1: you didn't do as well as you think you might

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Speaker 1: have been able to. Just being in that uncertain state

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Speaker 1: means the possibility of getting a really good grade still exists. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: another health related option that comes to mind, and I

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Speaker 1: think of it because I think I have a dental

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Speaker 1: checkup coming up. Sometimes month is like right now, I

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Speaker 1: either have a cavity or I don't. You know, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any you know, discomfort or anything. But

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Speaker 1: you know, how did you go in and then you

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Speaker 1: if you just wait and you're waiting, you're waiting, and

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Speaker 1: then they'll tell you, oh, you have a cavity, and

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Speaker 1: then you're you're crushed or at least you know, I

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Speaker 1: feel crushed and then they have to to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: But you either have a cavity or you don't. But

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Speaker 1: your fear, you're fearing the absolute judgment that comes down

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Speaker 1: and knowing for sure, do you know, I just went

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Speaker 1: last week and I have a cavity. Yeah, and now

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Speaker 1: I'm sattled with the knowledge that I'll be in the chair.

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Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna take a quick break, and when

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Speaker 1: we get back, we're going to talk about why this

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Speaker 1: sort of scare tactic strategy doesn't work in what we

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Speaker 1: can do. All Right, We're back, and I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 1: my tooth is starting to hurt now. All this time,

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Speaker 1: the psychic dread is boring into you. It's it is.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to distract myself from that and say, hey, uh,

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Speaker 1: if you were a public health worker and you were

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Speaker 1: gonna you have disinformation now that that this sort of

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Speaker 1: information over exists in people because it's tapping into their

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Speaker 1: existential dread, um, how would you then go about trying

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Speaker 1: to get people to access information that might help them

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Speaker 1: in the long run. Yeah, that's a big question, and

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Speaker 1: that's certainly the question that the study from Claremont Graduate University,

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Speaker 1: uh dived into a bit at the at the end

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Speaker 1: of the study, because, yeah, doctors don't want that scenario

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Speaker 1: where the patient finally shows up after a twenty year

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Speaker 1: absence and the problems that they've encountered over time have

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Speaker 1: have escalated, you know, because almost always the case, early

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Speaker 1: detection is key to to effective treatment. Indeed, so what

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Speaker 1: do you do well? One of the things is, and

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Speaker 1: maybe this seems a little bit disingenuous, but one of

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Speaker 1: the things that that you could do is to try

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Speaker 1: to sort of maybe played down the idea of the

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Speaker 1: test itself and the results and the fact that you

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Speaker 1: might have, you know, in this in this scenario, like

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Speaker 1: I just terrible raw case of genal source, right, instead

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00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 1: of showing everybody these pictures, maybe you just talk more

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Speaker 1: about the long term management of this kind of thing

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Speaker 1: and and the benefits that you can have in finding

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Speaker 1: out the positives and other words, Yeah, and and sometimes

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Speaker 1: it goes beyond just like the hardcore like scaring people

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Speaker 1: with facts. I mean, the facts alone can be scary,

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Speaker 1: and you want people to know, you want people to

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Speaker 1: to to have the facts at their disposal. But but

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Speaker 1: you also look back at say the old syphilis posters

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about in previous episodes, the ones that

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Speaker 1: would which would would show women in sort of a

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Speaker 1: monstrous light was oftentimes literally with ghastly skull like faces

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Speaker 1: and pulling off of demonic mass that kind of thing,

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00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 1: and so like that's sending the message, uh that that hey,

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Speaker 1: if you have one of these, then it's probably because

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Speaker 1: you've been sleeping with monsters and you yourself are a monster,

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Speaker 1: And that's a scary message to send as well. Yeah,

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00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 1: it was a kind of slut shaming, like these old posters.

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Speaker 1: So what if you updated him with like the Hannah

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00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 1: Horvath version from Girls, We're like, hey, every adventurous woman

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Speaker 1: has an STD You see her like, you know, taking

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00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 1: off on a plane. Yeah, I mean, it's just kind

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00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,199
Speaker 1: of like a kid. But you know what I'm saying, Like,

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00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 1: there's there's a way to reframe it. Yeah, yeah, framing

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Speaker 1: it in a sense like this is just the kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff that happens. Let's treat it, because treatment makes

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00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 1: things easier. I mean, it's we're boiling it down here.

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00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 1: But that's that's basically the strategy that they put forward

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Speaker 1: in this study. Now, the other recommendation they make comes

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Speaker 1: down to just frequency of tests. Now, the test in

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00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 1: this study, you know, it's a big deal. You're going

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Speaker 1: into this, you're signed up for this study, You're you're

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00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,680
Speaker 1: you're filling out the paperwork, they're you're being shown information

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Speaker 1: about herpes, and it's all leading up to this test

398
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 1: and whether they're going to tell you if you have

399
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 1: have herpes or not they're actually going to test there,

400
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 1: or if it's going to be poured down the sink

401
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: um in a way that kind of this big ritual

402
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 1: ends up playing out before you. The argument here is

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Speaker 1: what you do is you make tests like this far

404
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: more routine, and the more routine the test becomes, the

405
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: less of a big deal it is. It's the version

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00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 1: of it I keep thinking of is alright, imagine you

407
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 1: know you're looking you check into your bed every night

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00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: to see if there's a monster there, all right, and

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00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,239
Speaker 1: there's never a monster there, and you can feel kind

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Speaker 1: of comforting and the fact that based on on on

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Speaker 1: on regular studies of the environment, there's not a monster

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00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 1: under your bed. But if you only check for a

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00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 1: monster once a year, then that check becomes this this

414
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: more powerful um experience. If you only go to the

415
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: doctor once a year, then you have this just added

416
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 1: psychic weight associated with the ordeal. Yeah, and now we

417
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Speaker 1: should say that that some of the problem here is

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Speaker 1: access to healthcare, and in an obstacle would certainly be

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Speaker 1: that if someone did not have a healthcare plan in place,

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Speaker 1: or one that was um affordable to them, then it

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00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: would be a little bit more difficult to get that

422
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 1: checked out all the time. Yeah, because I mean there's

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Speaker 1: certainly people with ready easy access to healthcare who avoid

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00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 1: going to the doctor out of information a version then there,

425
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 1: but then there are going to be people who have

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Speaker 1: the added incentive to avoid going to the doctor because

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00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: of the financial obligation involved there. So you see, I

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00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: think you see a varying scale of the the economic

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00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: and the access um issue influencing and strengthening the information

430
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: aversion or in other cases to even replacing the information

431
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: of version. Maybe it becomes a situation I would love

432
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: to know, but I have zero access to what I need, Yeah,

433
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: which is really heartbreaking because those results can can be terrible.

434
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: I mean, if you cannot catch things at certain stages.

435
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: So all right, Um, there's there is a good I

436
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: think based stock of information about how that would affect us,

437
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: particularly our health right and how we make decisions. But um,

438
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 1: there's an idea that we also carry around with us

439
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 1: in bigger global themes information version, and there is a

440
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: mathematical physicist and professor of mathematics at the University of

441
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 1: California Riverside, who goes by the name of A John

442
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: Carlos Bias, and he has a great uh blog post

443
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: about this, talking about how global warming is part and

444
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: parcel of our aversion to say, oh this thing, this

445
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: this blue green rock that we're all sitting on and

446
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: we love and sustains us. Hey, we might be messing

447
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 1: it up, and how people are just kind of like, nah,

448
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: really really, I don't I don't think so indeed, because

449
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 1: no one wants to hear, Hey, you've kind of messed

450
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: up your planet here. I mean, it's it's it's bad news.

451
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: It's news that comes with a certain amount of responsive

452
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: billy uh at the individual level, as it certainly as

453
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 1: well as the corporate and state level. UM. So to

454
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: whatever extent you can just ignore the information or excuse

455
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 1: it away or blame it on on this set or

456
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: the other, than than all the better for your immediate

457
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: short term um mental health. Yeah. And he points directly

458
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: to information aversion in this sense, and he says, quote,

459
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: let's try extrapolating from this. Global warming is pretty scary.

460
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: What would people do to avoid learning more about it.

461
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: You can't exactly pay scientists to not tell you about it,

462
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: but you can do lots of other things. Not listen

463
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: to them, pay people to contradict what they're saying, and

464
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: so on, and guess what people do all these things.

465
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: So don't expect that scaring people about global warming will

466
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: make them take action. If a problem seems scary and

467
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,239
Speaker 1: hard to solve, many people will just avoid thinking about it,

468
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: and you just readjust your worldview to where you don't

469
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,959
Speaker 1: have to engage with that kind of thinking. Uh. There

470
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: have been recent papers that have come up talk talking

471
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: about the way we use our social media, especially Facebook,

472
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: how we inevitably end up just creating the bubble of comfort, uh,

473
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: regarding what shows up in our news feed and what

474
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: we end up up seeing. So the the troubling information,

475
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: the stuff we don't want to hear, that just gets

476
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: pushed out into the into the dark, and the only

477
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: thing in the light of our little campfire is the

478
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: stuff that is reinforcing our worldview and comforting our worldview.

479
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: Which was contrary to what people thought would happen in

480
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: social media. They thought that people would have more access

481
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: to different opinions and information, but the opposite seems to

482
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: be true in terms of how um information is being

483
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: selected and shared, right, Yeah, I mean, we have access

484
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: to more information than ever before, and at times it

485
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: feels like we're dumber than ever before on the Internet.

486
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: But I think again, it harkens back to that idea

487
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: of if it's if it's terrible news is nobody's like, Ah,

488
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: I am an adverse information monger. Tell me, tell me

489
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: all the things I don't really want to hear. But

490
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 1: I really know, I mean, who, I'm sure there are

491
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: some people out there who do that, but most people

492
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: tend to shy away from it. But I guess the thing, hopefully,

493
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: maybe the thing here is that enough people will want

494
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: to hear about the other side being wrong because that

495
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: strengthen their worldview and and their agenda, that maybe it

496
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: will keep those things bubbling up to the surface. But

497
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: then we call it into this whole idea of cognitive bias,

498
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: because I was thinking, you know, there's somewhat of a

499
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: byproduct too of cognitive bias and cognitive dissonance and how

500
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: we take all these pieces of information and try to

501
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: fit them into our world views. Um, But I do

502
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: like what bias is saying about the global warming issue,

503
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: in which John Muellum has said too in his book

504
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: Wild Ones, which is keep pushing the idea of the

505
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 1: polar bear, you know, slipping on ice that is melting

506
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: away underneath it, and it becomes less effective and people

507
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to see it because it feels like

508
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: there is there's no control over the situation. Um, So

509
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: what do you do? You try to give people information

510
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: and a sense of control over what could be done.

511
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: And to this end, we're actually going to be looking

512
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: into the topic of rewilding, um. So look for that

513
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks. But we hope to explore

514
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: the issue of global warming through more positive effects of

515
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: what we actually can do. So I'm gonna return once

516
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: more though, to be the idea of of the Reaper.

517
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: What what if we did, in a sense, check in

518
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: with death every day to the point where it became normal.

519
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: What if? What if? What if death wasn't this thing

520
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: that's just lurking mysterious at some unknown point in the future,

521
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: but we actually just lived our lives with a better

522
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: long term understanding of how our life was going to work. Well,

523
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there are a lot of people

524
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: who would say that we need a better relationship with death.

525
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: You know, not that we need to sit around the

526
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: campfire with with the grim Reaper all the time and

527
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: have a beer, but you know that we do need

528
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: to look at it as a natural part of being

529
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: as opposed to something that needs to be vanquished. In

530
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: this NPR piece, they were talking about a community which

531
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: is actually trying to talk about death with their loved

532
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 1: ones in a real and meaningful way so that the

533
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: end of care um end of life care could be

534
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: put into place and could be most effective and compassionate

535
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: for people who have advanced states of disease or just

536
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: age and what to do with their stuff, and all

537
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 1: of these things that you know are just become like

538
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: this mental um clap trap of our existence that we

539
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 1: just put up in our mental addicts and leave up

540
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: there to just get dust all over. Yeah, all that

541
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: stuff in the health on the second floor bedroom that

542
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 1: we think we're going to be able to use our

543
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: entire life, because that's a whole another area. It's just

544
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: how your living spaces arranged. We tend to not think

545
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: about the long terms of well, I'm not going to

546
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,479
Speaker 1: reach the point where I can't climb stairs anymore now,

547
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to roll with that. Yeah. So we

548
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit earlier, like we so

549
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: great to have an experiment with a community, hundred year

550
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: long experiment to to just infuse that culture of that

551
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: community with long term instead of short term, because very

552
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: much of our existence, at least our Western existence, is

553
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,719
Speaker 1: concerned with the short term. You know. We we know

554
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: about the long term, but we're really worried more about

555
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: like what's going to happen tomorrow or in the next year. Yeah,

556
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: And it does make me wonder to what extent we

557
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: can mess with that, like how much of that is culture,

558
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: how much of that is based in our conscious understanding

559
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: the world, and how much of that is just the

560
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: organism itself, Because ultimately, the genetic mission is just to

561
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,959
Speaker 1: reach the age of which you can reproduce, reproduce, spread

562
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: the genes, and then get busy dying because that's what

563
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: the body starts doing at that point. I mean, that's

564
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: what our bodies are doing right now. Our bodies are dying.

565
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: That death is a thing that happens to the body

566
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: after it has fulfilled as genetic mission. Well, that all

567
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: seems pretty clear cut, and tell you put on top

568
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: of that configuration consciousness, right, the hard problem, Why are

569
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: we here? Why are we doing this anyway? Yeah? And

570
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: then that's then we're in the same human mess. We're

571
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: always in this, uh, this tug of war between between

572
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: consciousness and the body, between uh the realities of how

573
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: we uh ascended to this point and uh and what

574
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: we want out of it. Indeed, all right, So there

575
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: you have it. So, hey, you want to check out

576
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: more episodes of the podcast, you want to read our

577
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: blog posts, you want to watch videos, than head on

578
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That

579
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: is the mothership. That's where you will find everything, including

580
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 1: links out to our greatest social media accounts into our

581
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: YouTube account, which is mind Stuff Show. And now that

582
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: you've heard about information and version are does it affect

583
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: your life? Do you now look back and say, hey,

584
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: I see that it permeates my own existence. Let us

585
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: know about that, And you can do that by sending

586
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: us an email at blow the Mind at house to

587
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: works dot com. For more on this and thousands of

588
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: other topics, visit hastaff works dot com