WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: Natalie Bollinger

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<v Speaker 1>School of Humans.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, everyone, this episode's going to be a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>different from the other ones you've heard so far, because

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<v Speaker 2>this time I'm talking about a case that has been solved,

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<v Speaker 2>so there was closure, and it's a case that I

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<v Speaker 2>covered as a journalist. I decided to make this our

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<v Speaker 2>kind of Hell and Gone Special Christmas episode because I

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<v Speaker 2>really wanted to share this case with you. I learned

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<v Speaker 2>a lot from it. It happened about this time of year,

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<v Speaker 2>around the holidays in twenty seventeen. It's also a case

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<v Speaker 2>with the wildest twist I've ever seen, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>saying that lightly because I've seen a lot. The person

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<v Speaker 2>who committed the murder is not anyone that the public

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<v Speaker 2>suspected at all. Most importantly, I'm sharing this because I

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<v Speaker 2>think it contains an incredibly important cautionary tale about the

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<v Speaker 2>dangers of social media the impact it can have on

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<v Speaker 2>crime stories, both for the victims and the victims' families,

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<v Speaker 2>and for the people reporting on these cases. By the way,

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<v Speaker 2>I am still working on the Christina Pipkin case. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>doing interviews. I've had a huge response. We've had hundreds

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<v Speaker 2>of calls. The people in Hickory Ridge and around Arkansas

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<v Speaker 2>and actually around the country have been super helpful and

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<v Speaker 2>we're making a lot of progress in that case. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to be doing another episode on Christina's case, my

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<v Speaker 2>final one for now, when we come back in January

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<v Speaker 2>after a break next week. So back to this week's case.

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<v Speaker 2>It all started in Broomfield, Colorado, on December twenty eighth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty seventeen, nineteen year old Natalie Bollinger was at home

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<v Speaker 2>in her apartment. Natalie lived with her boyfriend, Joseph Joey Marino.

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<v Speaker 2>She had moved to Colorado the year before to be

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<v Speaker 2>near her dad, Ted and her twin sister Alicia, and

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<v Speaker 2>some other family members. Natalie's mother, Roe's self lived in Virginia.

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<v Speaker 2>According to her a Bitchctuary, Natalie was, for the most part,

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<v Speaker 2>a normal teenage girl. She loved animals and nature, and

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<v Speaker 2>had recently enrolled in college with the goal of becoming

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<v Speaker 2>a registered nurse. All of her friends and family described

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<v Speaker 2>her as kind and loving, the kind of person who

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<v Speaker 2>would do anything to help a friend in need. But

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<v Speaker 2>Natalie Bollinger had also had a tough year. She had

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<v Speaker 2>been suffering from depression and going through a lot of stress.

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<v Speaker 1>In her life.

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<v Speaker 2>She had also at different points in her life, used drugs,

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<v Speaker 2>including methamphetamines and heroin, and she posted on Facebook about

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<v Speaker 2>her experimentation with drugs. Joey, Natalie's boyfriend, said he went

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<v Speaker 2>to work at six am that morning. When he got

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<v Speaker 2>home that afternoon at three eighteen pm, Natalie was gone.

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<v Speaker 1>Joey also had.

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<v Speaker 2>A nine millimeter glock and he noticed that his gun

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<v Speaker 2>was gone. He apparently tried to call Natalie, but when

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<v Speaker 2>he did, he noticed that her cell phone was at

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<v Speaker 2>home too. That's when Joey became alarmed because Natalie was

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<v Speaker 2>very active on social media. She was not the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of person to leave her cell phone at home for

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<v Speaker 2>long periods of time. Joey called the police and reported

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<v Speaker 2>Natalie missing. He also called Natalie's mom Rose. He told

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<v Speaker 2>her he was worried because Natalie's phone was at the house,

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<v Speaker 2>her coat was there, her shoes were there, and remember

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<v Speaker 2>this is the middle of winter and she was just gone.

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<v Speaker 2>Police said at the time that at first they weren't

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<v Speaker 2>overly worried because Natalie was nineteen years old, she had

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<v Speaker 2>the right to disappear or not contact people, and she

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<v Speaker 2>and Joey had gotten into some arguments like normal couples,

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<v Speaker 2>but family members let police know it was very unlike

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<v Speaker 2>Natalie not to be on social media at all, and

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<v Speaker 2>also family members let police know that Natalie had been

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<v Speaker 2>dealing with depression and other issues. By the next day, Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>December twenty eighth, police were seriously concerned. Over the next

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<v Speaker 2>few days, the search for Natalie Bollinger made local and

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<v Speaker 2>then national news. Missing posters of Natalie with her distinctive look,

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<v Speaker 2>the tattoo of a three eyed cat on the nape

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<v Speaker 2>of her neck, and purple hair were posted everywhere in town.

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<v Speaker 1>The next day, on December twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>Ninth, police got a tip that a body had been

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<v Speaker 2>found on land belonging to the Macintosh Dairy Farm. The

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<v Speaker 2>body was in a wooded area north of Denver, Colorado,

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<v Speaker 2>and later once police described the tattoo on the body

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<v Speaker 2>the three eyed cat to Natalie's family, they were able

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<v Speaker 2>to confirm that the body found was Natalie Ballinger. She

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<v Speaker 2>was wearing black jeans, a black hoodie, black boots, and socks.

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<v Speaker 1>She was covered in leaves.

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<v Speaker 2>Investigators determined that she had been dead since the day

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<v Speaker 2>she went missing. I'm Catherine Townsend. If you have a

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<v Speaker 2>case you'd like me and my team to look into.

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<v Speaker 2>You can reach out to us at our Helen Gone

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<v Speaker 2>Murder Line at six seven eight seven four four six

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<v Speaker 2>one four five. That's six seven eight seven four four

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<v Speaker 2>six one four five. This is Helen Gone Murder Line.

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<v Speaker 2>I first became involved in Natalie's case back in twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 2>right after she went missing. I was working with Investigation Discovery,

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<v Speaker 2>and when I wrote the article about it, I called

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<v Speaker 2>this case a social media murder mystery because social media

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<v Speaker 2>was involved at every single stage, and at every single stage,

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<v Speaker 2>in my opinion, it both helped and hurt the case.

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<v Speaker 2>It started early when Natalie's father, Ted Ballinger, posted a

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<v Speaker 2>message on a TV news station's Facebook page. It read,

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<v Speaker 2>just left the sheriff, my daughter was murdered.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>This was before police officially publicly confirmed that the body

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<v Speaker 2>found had been Natalie. Police said social media did help

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<v Speaker 2>the case in some ways. The Adams County Sheriff Mike

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<v Speaker 2>McIntosh said that those Facebook photos of Natalie's distinctive tattoos

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<v Speaker 2>helped them identify her body. Then there was no news

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<v Speaker 2>for several days. The whole town was talking about the case.

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<v Speaker 2>On January third, Sheriff Macintosh held a press conference at

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<v Speaker 2>the time. He said, quote, I feel comfortable saying that

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<v Speaker 2>there's not a threat to the community. End quote now.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though police did not say much more about the

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<v Speaker 2>murder investigation, if you listen to this podcast or any

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<v Speaker 2>other true crime podcast, you know that when police want

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<v Speaker 2>to convey that they believe that the murder was personal

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<v Speaker 2>and not, for example, something a random stranger did, this

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<v Speaker 2>is often what they'll say. After that, people started to

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<v Speaker 2>speculate that Natalie had some sort of relationship with her

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<v Speaker 2>killer was someone that she knew, and that's when all

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<v Speaker 2>hell broke loose on social media. First of all, you

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<v Speaker 2>had Natalie's family and they were arguing amongst themselves. Natalie's father, Ted,

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<v Speaker 2>had started to gofund me, but there was some controversy

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<v Speaker 2>about that. People made allegations that the money wasn't being

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<v Speaker 2>used properly. On January eighth, Ted said that the funeral

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<v Speaker 2>would be the following day, but later he said the

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<v Speaker 2>services were canceled due to what he called issues with funding.

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<v Speaker 2>And then on January eleven, the other side of the family,

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<v Speaker 2>her mom, Rose, and some others said they were having

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<v Speaker 2>memorial services for Natalie in Virginia. Eventually, Natalie's funeral was

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<v Speaker 2>held at the Church of Saint Teres in Chesapeake, Virginia.

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<v Speaker 2>Since Natalie's social media was public, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>went to her Facebook page and they found very detailed

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<v Speaker 2>descriptions of what she had been going through in the

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<v Speaker 2>days and months before her death. Very quickly they saw

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<v Speaker 2>she had been dealing with a guy, someone she was

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<v Speaker 2>scared of, and the final update on her Facebook page

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<v Speaker 2>was a post about Natalie being stalked. Natalie's life had

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<v Speaker 2>a dark side, a dark side that she wrote about

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<v Speaker 2>on social media. Yet she talked about her problems at

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<v Speaker 2>home with some family members, about depression, and about her

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<v Speaker 2>experimentation with drugs, and of course, social media sleuics immediately

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<v Speaker 2>started looking up information on anyone who was even tangentially

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<v Speaker 2>connected to Natalie, including her father Ted. Ted had a

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<v Speaker 2>criminal record that included arrest for burglary, car theft, some

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<v Speaker 2>drug charges, and felony assault. This is all, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>according to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation court records.

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<v Speaker 1>Two weeks before she.

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<v Speaker 2>Disappeared, Natalie posted a statement on Facebook.

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<v Speaker 1>In that post, she.

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<v Speaker 2>Said she was scared because she said she was being

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<v Speaker 2>stalked by a thirty seven year old man named Shawn Schwartz.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 2>Sean Swartz with someone Natalie had met a few years earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>Then they lost contact for a while, and in twenty

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen they seemed to reconnect as friends. Sean also had

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<v Speaker 2>a criminal record. He had been charged with theft in

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<v Speaker 2>the past. For a while, Sean and Natalie became confidants

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<v Speaker 2>and they seemed to really share a lot of their

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<v Speaker 2>problems with each other and support each other. But then

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<v Speaker 2>it seemed like things started to turn. Seawan was becoming

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<v Speaker 2>fixated on her, and if you read the text messages,

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like his fixation increased pretty dramatically throughout twenty seventeen. Later,

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<v Speaker 2>he posted long text messages and social media message exchanges

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<v Speaker 2>between him and Natalie where they shared the details of

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<v Speaker 2>their lives and supported each other. But at some point

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<v Speaker 2>it seemed like Natalie started to become afraid of Sean.

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<v Speaker 2>Natalie claimed that Sean was obsessed with her, and she

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<v Speaker 2>claimed he had driven across the country to see her

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<v Speaker 2>and slept behind her work for weeks. She wrote quote

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<v Speaker 2>he sent emails for over a year close to every day,

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<v Speaker 2>harassing me, making numerous different accounts until I'll block him again,

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<v Speaker 2>threatening my family, telling me he'll kill himself in front

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<v Speaker 2>of me, and sending my friends and family threatening messages

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>End quote.

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<v Speaker 2>On December fourteenth, twenty seventeen, Natalie went to the police

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<v Speaker 2>and asked for a temporary restraining order. That restraining order

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<v Speaker 2>was granted, and a few days later it was made permanent.

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<v Speaker 1>She posted copies of.

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<v Speaker 2>The restraining order online and from that we could see

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<v Speaker 2>that she claimed that Sean would show up in his

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<v Speaker 2>car and sit outside her house for hours. When she

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<v Speaker 2>didn't come out, he would literally just lay on the

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<v Speaker 2>horn four hours at a time. So, of course, because

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<v Speaker 2>Natalie had described this alleged stalking incident and it was

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<v Speaker 2>one of her last posts ever on social media, people

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<v Speaker 2>immediately focused on Sean and pretty soon they were asking

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<v Speaker 2>why wasn't he a person of interest? Why wasn't he

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<v Speaker 2>being arrested. Meanwhile, Sean said he wasn't even in Colorado

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<v Speaker 2>at the time Natalie disappeared. He said he had nothing

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<v Speaker 2>to do with her disappearance, and he said he could

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<v Speaker 2>prove where he was because he had receipts. Sean's social

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<v Speaker 2>media showed videos of him posting these long rants against

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<v Speaker 2>the system and sometimes against Natalie's family. Some of these

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<v Speaker 2>videos seem pretty scary, but at the same time, Shawn

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<v Speaker 2>also seemed like a vulnerable person. According to his own

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<v Speaker 2>description of himself, he had mental health issues and nowhere

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<v Speaker 2>to live.

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<v Speaker 1>So this was a.

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<v Speaker 2>Bollettle situation because you have one person who's been murdered,

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<v Speaker 2>you have a person who's kind of living on the streets.

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<v Speaker 2>And also said that they had medical conditions including Aspergers

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<v Speaker 2>and Tourette's syndrome, things that can cause miscommunications. Sean said

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<v Speaker 2>he was unfairly, in his words, convicted in the court

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<v Speaker 2>of public opinion. Sheriff McIntosh tried to calm down this

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<v Speaker 2>social media storm and made a comment about how Facebook

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<v Speaker 2>had been a mixed blessing in this case. The sheriff said, quote,

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<v Speaker 2>Facebook gets to put out that information before we can

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<v Speaker 2>go through our official steps to make sure that we

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<v Speaker 2>get it right. In today's day and age, it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of fascinating how much information we can gain from that.

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<v Speaker 2>On the other hand, there is a lot of information

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<v Speaker 2>that is absolutely untrue, false accusations. Our goal is to

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<v Speaker 2>make sure that we're not headed down a rabbit trail

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<v Speaker 2>that we don't need to go down end quote. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think the sheriff's statement really epitomizes the reality of

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<v Speaker 2>social media in these cases.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll admit I sometimes get sucked into it too.

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<v Speaker 2>When hundreds and thousands of people started discussing Natalie's case online,

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<v Speaker 2>and these groups calling for justice for Natalie Ballinger began

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<v Speaker 2>popping up on Facebook, I was looking at them as well.

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<v Speaker 2>People were staying up late at night and going down

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of weird rabbit holes. But then I started

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<v Speaker 2>to get nervous because people went from sharing information to

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<v Speaker 2>having this kind of mob mentality. The mob mentality towards

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<v Speaker 2>Sean started to scare me, especially once it became clear

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<v Speaker 2>that he really was having issues. In the beginning of

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen, I was worried that this whole situation was

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<v Speaker 2>building towards something bad, that something very bad was going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen. People were literally messaging Sean and trying to

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<v Speaker 2>figure out where he was. By this point, he had

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<v Speaker 2>gone to Boulder. He said he couldn't stay with family

0:14:41.045 --> 0:14:44.605
<v Speaker 2>and was basically staying between motels in the street. I

0:14:44.645 --> 0:14:47.645
<v Speaker 2>found myself getting very concerned for him. Also, some of

0:14:47.645 --> 0:14:51.845
<v Speaker 2>his posts seemed very irrational and rambling. I started to

0:14:51.885 --> 0:14:54.805
<v Speaker 2>wonder would he do something to someone else, would someone

0:14:54.845 --> 0:14:57.925
<v Speaker 2>do something to him. The way that everything was playing

0:14:57.925 --> 0:15:01.605
<v Speaker 2>out uncontrolled, in this really public and frankly terrifying way,

0:15:02.085 --> 0:15:06.685
<v Speaker 2>seemed like it was spiraling toward some type of terrifying conclusion.

0:15:08.405 --> 0:15:12.685
<v Speaker 2>On January fifth, Sean posted on Facebook basically challenging the

0:15:12.725 --> 0:15:15.685
<v Speaker 2>police to come find him and, in his words, put

0:15:15.725 --> 0:15:16.405
<v Speaker 2>me in the ground.

0:15:17.525 --> 0:15:18.965
<v Speaker 1>Police arrested him that night.

0:15:19.365 --> 0:15:21.685
<v Speaker 2>He was charged with second degree assault on a peace

0:15:21.685 --> 0:15:25.405
<v Speaker 2>officer and with resisting arrest. Then he was released on

0:15:25.485 --> 0:15:28.965
<v Speaker 2>bail and posted a video saying the police had assaulted him.

0:15:29.245 --> 0:15:31.965
<v Speaker 2>He wrote that he quote wanted my life to be

0:15:32.005 --> 0:15:34.685
<v Speaker 2>over because my friends were afraid, not afraid of me,

0:15:35.285 --> 0:15:39.525
<v Speaker 2>but afraid of public opinion end quote. He then said

0:15:39.605 --> 0:15:43.765
<v Speaker 2>that the bolder police had antagonized the situation, assaulted him,

0:15:44.205 --> 0:15:45.725
<v Speaker 2>and then charged him with assault.

0:15:46.565 --> 0:15:48.645
<v Speaker 1>He alleged the police.

0:15:48.165 --> 0:15:51.445
<v Speaker 2>And his opinion, were hoping that a vigilanti would kill him,

0:15:51.685 --> 0:15:53.445
<v Speaker 2>and when that didn't happen, they threw him in jail,

0:15:56.245 --> 0:15:58.285
<v Speaker 2>and he claimed the police had lied to him. He

0:15:58.405 --> 0:16:00.125
<v Speaker 2>said they told him he was going to go to

0:16:00.165 --> 0:16:02.045
<v Speaker 2>a safe place where he could sit down and fill

0:16:02.085 --> 0:16:04.965
<v Speaker 2>out a report, but he was taken to the hospital instead,

0:16:05.005 --> 0:16:06.925
<v Speaker 2>and he could not handle the environment there, so I

0:16:06.965 --> 0:16:10.205
<v Speaker 2>ended up leaving. Now, the police claimed they were trying

0:16:10.205 --> 0:16:12.645
<v Speaker 2>to help Sean by taking him to the hospital, but

0:16:12.725 --> 0:16:16.725
<v Speaker 2>that Sean became uncooperative and started kicking and fighting with them.

0:16:17.165 --> 0:16:20.605
<v Speaker 2>They say that's why he ended up with the assault charge.

0:16:20.645 --> 0:16:23.925
<v Speaker 2>Whatever the reality of all that, you have a situation

0:16:24.205 --> 0:16:27.085
<v Speaker 2>where in January you have this incident with Sean and

0:16:27.125 --> 0:16:30.205
<v Speaker 2>the police. You have headlines saying that a person of

0:16:30.285 --> 0:16:33.365
<v Speaker 2>interest in Natalie's case was arrested. And even though the

0:16:33.445 --> 0:16:37.685
<v Speaker 2>articles did say that Sean was arrested on an unrelated charge,

0:16:38.085 --> 0:16:40.125
<v Speaker 2>let's be real, a lot of people don't read that

0:16:40.205 --> 0:16:40.805
<v Speaker 2>fine print.

0:16:41.165 --> 0:16:42.365
<v Speaker 1>They just see the headlines.

0:16:42.805 --> 0:16:45.725
<v Speaker 2>So what they saw was that Sean had been arrested,

0:16:46.125 --> 0:16:49.565
<v Speaker 2>and they saw Natalie's name, and again this added to

0:16:49.605 --> 0:16:52.925
<v Speaker 2>that public perception that Sean could have had something to

0:16:52.925 --> 0:16:56.365
<v Speaker 2>do with Natalie's murder. I should add that during this time,

0:16:56.405 --> 0:16:58.685
<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of people trying to help Sean,

0:16:59.165 --> 0:17:01.845
<v Speaker 2>sending him supportive messages, but there were also a lot

0:17:01.885 --> 0:17:07.325
<v Speaker 2>of people following everything that he said online and virtually

0:17:07.325 --> 0:17:15.645
<v Speaker 2>stalking him. Then the case took another dangerous and crazy twist.

0:17:17.005 --> 0:17:20.605
<v Speaker 2>Sean posted a Facebook live video which has now been deleted,

0:17:21.045 --> 0:17:23.485
<v Speaker 2>of himself in a motel where he said he had

0:17:23.525 --> 0:17:26.965
<v Speaker 2>been driven to take his own life. The video showed

0:17:27.045 --> 0:17:31.725
<v Speaker 2>him taking pills from a pudding cup. Several people who

0:17:31.765 --> 0:17:35.885
<v Speaker 2>saw the video managed to contact emergency services. Paramedics rushed

0:17:35.885 --> 0:17:38.125
<v Speaker 2>to the scene and they treated him. Sean made a

0:17:38.165 --> 0:17:44.925
<v Speaker 2>full recovery. And while this whole thing with Sean was

0:17:44.965 --> 0:17:49.565
<v Speaker 2>playing out so publicly on social media, in the background,

0:17:50.205 --> 0:17:53.245
<v Speaker 2>other people were talking about Natalie's boyfriend and trying to

0:17:53.245 --> 0:17:56.925
<v Speaker 2>figure out his timeline. The boyfriend, Joey, by the way,

0:17:57.005 --> 0:17:59.565
<v Speaker 2>was completely cleared by police early in the investigation.

0:17:59.685 --> 0:18:00.885
<v Speaker 1>He was very cooperative.

0:18:01.285 --> 0:18:04.405
<v Speaker 2>Detectives on the case verified that he had been at

0:18:04.445 --> 0:18:09.445
<v Speaker 2>work the time when Natalie had been killed. In the background,

0:18:09.565 --> 0:18:13.525
<v Speaker 2>detectives were doing some old school thorough detective work. They

0:18:13.525 --> 0:18:16.605
<v Speaker 2>were looking through Natalie's phone all of her text messages,

0:18:17.645 --> 0:18:20.605
<v Speaker 2>and there was a delay between the time when police

0:18:20.605 --> 0:18:22.725
<v Speaker 2>got her phone and when they were able to access

0:18:22.845 --> 0:18:25.765
<v Speaker 2>her password and get to her text messages. This happens

0:18:25.805 --> 0:18:29.005
<v Speaker 2>a lot in cases because sometimes police have to get

0:18:29.005 --> 0:18:32.725
<v Speaker 2>a search warrant from the provider, so there was a delay,

0:18:32.765 --> 0:18:35.245
<v Speaker 2>but once they saw those text messages, they got a shock.

0:18:35.765 --> 0:18:39.125
<v Speaker 2>It became very clear there was a very obvious suspect

0:18:39.205 --> 0:18:41.245
<v Speaker 2>in this case, and it wasn't Sean, and it wasn't

0:18:41.285 --> 0:18:45.285
<v Speaker 2>anyone in Natalie's family or her boyfriend, or anyone who

0:18:45.325 --> 0:18:49.405
<v Speaker 2>the public expected, because the man who police suspected of

0:18:49.485 --> 0:18:53.525
<v Speaker 2>killing Natalie Bollinger was in fact a twenty three year

0:18:53.565 --> 0:18:58.685
<v Speaker 2>old Domino's pizza delivery guy named Joseph Lopez. Up until

0:18:58.725 --> 0:19:01.845
<v Speaker 2>a few days before her murder, he had been a

0:19:01.885 --> 0:19:14.645
<v Speaker 2>complete stranger to Natalie. Once police saw the text messages

0:19:14.685 --> 0:19:18.045
<v Speaker 2>between Natalie and Joseph Lopez, which I'll explain in a minute,

0:19:18.325 --> 0:19:21.285
<v Speaker 2>they went to the pizza place where he worked, and

0:19:21.325 --> 0:19:25.125
<v Speaker 2>according to the arrest affidavit, he was cooperative. He realized

0:19:25.205 --> 0:19:27.765
<v Speaker 2>he was caught and he immediately told police what happened.

0:19:28.285 --> 0:19:31.645
<v Speaker 2>And the story that Joseph Lopez told was wild. In fact,

0:19:31.645 --> 0:19:34.725
<v Speaker 2>it's one of the most unbelievable things I've actually ever heard.

0:19:35.165 --> 0:19:36.765
<v Speaker 2>If it was a movie, I'm not sure I would

0:19:36.765 --> 0:19:41.725
<v Speaker 2>find it believable. But like I always say, sadly, this

0:19:41.805 --> 0:19:44.205
<v Speaker 2>is real life, not a movie.

0:19:44.285 --> 0:19:45.805
<v Speaker 1>These are real people, and.

0:19:45.765 --> 0:19:49.485
<v Speaker 2>Again this is why when we cover these cases, I

0:19:49.565 --> 0:19:55.525
<v Speaker 2>take that responsibility very seriously. According to the arrest affidavit,

0:19:55.965 --> 0:20:00.245
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Lopez was randomly scrolling through Craigslist one night. He

0:20:00.325 --> 0:20:03.045
<v Speaker 2>was looking at the women seeking men's section. He saw

0:20:03.125 --> 0:20:06.885
<v Speaker 2>an ad with the headline to put a hit on myself,

0:20:07.605 --> 0:20:10.805
<v Speaker 2>meaning I want to hire a hit man to kill me.

0:20:11.405 --> 0:20:16.645
<v Speaker 2>And apparently this ad was placed by Natalie Ballinger. Now

0:20:16.645 --> 0:20:20.365
<v Speaker 2>this sounds crazy and unbelievable, but according to the arrest affidavit,

0:20:20.925 --> 0:20:24.485
<v Speaker 2>police went through the digital forensics very carefully. They went

0:20:24.485 --> 0:20:26.925
<v Speaker 2>through natalie cell phone. They went through Joseph's cell phone.

0:20:27.125 --> 0:20:29.805
<v Speaker 2>They figured out not only had he responded to this ad,

0:20:30.525 --> 0:20:34.565
<v Speaker 2>but that after he did, Joseph and Natalie swapped contact

0:20:34.565 --> 0:20:37.965
<v Speaker 2>details and they started texting. In the end, they texted

0:20:38.005 --> 0:20:41.205
<v Speaker 2>over one hundred times. They talked a lot in detail

0:20:41.365 --> 0:20:44.045
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that Natalie wanted to end her life

0:20:44.125 --> 0:20:45.605
<v Speaker 2>and she wanted help to do it.

0:20:46.285 --> 0:20:46.565
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:20:46.845 --> 0:20:49.445
<v Speaker 2>During this time, Joseph Lopez, who's this kind of shy,

0:20:49.605 --> 0:20:53.125
<v Speaker 2>retiring pizza delivery boy, adopts this kind of fake hit

0:20:53.205 --> 0:20:56.285
<v Speaker 2>man persona. It's like he wanted to be this Jason

0:20:56.325 --> 0:20:59.125
<v Speaker 2>Bourne badass type character, which of course he was not,

0:20:59.765 --> 0:21:02.645
<v Speaker 2>and during the course of these conversations, he agreed to

0:21:02.765 --> 0:21:06.045
<v Speaker 2>kill Natalie Ballinger. He agreed to do it, says the

0:21:06.085 --> 0:21:10.165
<v Speaker 2>arrest affidavit, for an unspecified fee. Apparently there was talk

0:21:10.205 --> 0:21:14.445
<v Speaker 2>of money, but it's not clear how much money. So then, again,

0:21:14.485 --> 0:21:17.285
<v Speaker 2>according to this document, they came up with a plan

0:21:17.965 --> 0:21:20.925
<v Speaker 2>Joseph would pick Natalie up from her apartment on December

0:21:20.965 --> 0:21:24.085
<v Speaker 2>twenty eighth, and after her boyfriend left for work. That's

0:21:24.125 --> 0:21:27.845
<v Speaker 2>exactly what happened. Joseph drove over and picked Natalie up.

0:21:34.285 --> 0:21:36.805
<v Speaker 2>According to Joseph, they talked for a while and they

0:21:36.885 --> 0:21:40.645
<v Speaker 2>drove around. Natalie talked about the problems she'd been having

0:21:40.645 --> 0:21:43.485
<v Speaker 2>in her life, her relationship with her boyfriend, and some

0:21:43.525 --> 0:21:48.405
<v Speaker 2>other stuff, just her general depression. Then at some point

0:21:48.445 --> 0:21:50.885
<v Speaker 2>they started to drive toward the area where her body

0:21:50.925 --> 0:21:54.285
<v Speaker 2>was found. Natalie had brought her boyfriend's gun with her,

0:21:54.445 --> 0:21:58.005
<v Speaker 2>which she had said she would do. This is where

0:21:58.085 --> 0:22:01.925
<v Speaker 2>the story diverges a little bit. Because Joseph Lopez initially

0:22:01.925 --> 0:22:05.125
<v Speaker 2>told investigators that he didn't kill Natalie. He said, yes,

0:22:05.165 --> 0:22:07.165
<v Speaker 2>he did pick her up. They talked for a while

0:22:07.245 --> 0:22:10.285
<v Speaker 2>and then he said, of course, trying to paint himself

0:22:10.285 --> 0:22:13.285
<v Speaker 2>in the best possible light, which many suspects do.

0:22:13.965 --> 0:22:15.765
<v Speaker 1>He said he was trying to talk.

0:22:15.685 --> 0:22:18.485
<v Speaker 2>Natalie out of her killing herself. That's why he had

0:22:18.485 --> 0:22:20.645
<v Speaker 2>gone there, to try and help her and get her

0:22:20.685 --> 0:22:24.805
<v Speaker 2>to change her mind. In the end, he said, he

0:22:24.845 --> 0:22:27.605
<v Speaker 2>had just been altruistic, and then he drove her back

0:22:27.605 --> 0:22:31.165
<v Speaker 2>to her apartment and left her there. So if someone

0:22:31.245 --> 0:22:33.405
<v Speaker 2>did kill her, he said after that, she must have

0:22:33.485 --> 0:22:36.565
<v Speaker 2>found another person to respond to the ad or maybe done.

0:22:36.445 --> 0:22:36.925
<v Speaker 1>It on her own.

0:22:38.165 --> 0:22:41.245
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Lopez was arrested in February, and at around that

0:22:41.285 --> 0:22:44.685
<v Speaker 2>same time, I was looking for source documents, trying to

0:22:44.725 --> 0:22:49.765
<v Speaker 2>ignore the online chatter. I was actually on vacation. I

0:22:49.885 --> 0:22:53.485
<v Speaker 2>was skiing in Colorado. I was an Aspen and I

0:22:53.605 --> 0:22:56.725
<v Speaker 2>decided to take a drive to Adams County, ignore all

0:22:56.765 --> 0:23:00.685
<v Speaker 2>the online chatter, and request the arrest affidavit and a

0:23:00.725 --> 0:23:03.765
<v Speaker 2>copy of the autopsy in person. And that's exactly what

0:23:03.805 --> 0:23:06.885
<v Speaker 2>I did. Now because I was in one of the

0:23:06.885 --> 0:23:10.485
<v Speaker 2>Facebook groups. Because I'll join any group that I can,

0:23:10.605 --> 0:23:13.205
<v Speaker 2>I will do anything to find information that could close

0:23:13.205 --> 0:23:16.445
<v Speaker 2>the case. I communicated with some people there. I let

0:23:16.525 --> 0:23:18.685
<v Speaker 2>them know that i'd written a story for the Investigation

0:23:18.725 --> 0:23:21.565
<v Speaker 2>Discovery blog and that the autopsy report was part of

0:23:21.565 --> 0:23:25.165
<v Speaker 2>that story. It was really strange though, because a lot

0:23:25.205 --> 0:23:28.165
<v Speaker 2>of people said it was fake news. Later, a lot

0:23:28.245 --> 0:23:30.885
<v Speaker 2>of people were very supportive and thanked me for trying

0:23:30.925 --> 0:23:33.565
<v Speaker 2>to provide original documents in a case where there was

0:23:33.605 --> 0:23:37.085
<v Speaker 2>so much speculation. But I think it's really important in

0:23:37.085 --> 0:23:40.845
<v Speaker 2>cases like this to be able to find those documents,

0:23:41.205 --> 0:23:44.085
<v Speaker 2>things that came directly from the medical examiner's office or

0:23:44.125 --> 0:23:47.165
<v Speaker 2>from the police in the case file. Whenever possible, I

0:23:47.325 --> 0:23:53.565
<v Speaker 2>always try to find the original source documents. And what

0:23:53.605 --> 0:23:57.485
<v Speaker 2>that autopsy report showed was that Natalie was killed by

0:23:57.565 --> 0:24:01.125
<v Speaker 2>gunshot wound to the head. She also had a potentially

0:24:01.205 --> 0:24:03.285
<v Speaker 2>lethal amount of heroin in her system at the time

0:24:03.325 --> 0:24:08.005
<v Speaker 2>of her death. I talked to a forensic pathologist and

0:24:08.045 --> 0:24:11.525
<v Speaker 2>asked them to weigh in on that autopsy report. I

0:24:11.605 --> 0:24:14.005
<v Speaker 2>asked the question that a lot of people were asking,

0:24:14.045 --> 0:24:17.845
<v Speaker 2>which is would the drugs in her system have eventually

0:24:17.925 --> 0:24:18.445
<v Speaker 2>killed her?

0:24:19.005 --> 0:24:19.445
<v Speaker 1>And what the.

0:24:19.405 --> 0:24:23.045
<v Speaker 2>Pathologist said was that's actually irrelevant because even if Natalie

0:24:23.085 --> 0:24:25.285
<v Speaker 2>did have a toxic amount of drugs in her system,

0:24:25.765 --> 0:24:28.765
<v Speaker 2>even if she would have eventually died from an overdose.

0:24:29.205 --> 0:24:31.485
<v Speaker 2>That wasn't what killed her. What killed her was that

0:24:31.525 --> 0:24:37.325
<v Speaker 2>gunshot wound to the head. Joseph Lopez told police that

0:24:37.445 --> 0:24:41.845
<v Speaker 2>Natalie wanted to be killed on her knees, executed from behind,

0:24:42.805 --> 0:24:47.125
<v Speaker 2>but again he said he didn't do it. But police

0:24:47.165 --> 0:24:50.565
<v Speaker 2>knew that Joseph Lopez was lying because what he didn't

0:24:50.605 --> 0:24:53.925
<v Speaker 2>know was that police had his car GPS data and

0:24:53.965 --> 0:24:57.845
<v Speaker 2>that data showed that Joseph Lopez, or at least his car,

0:24:58.245 --> 0:25:00.685
<v Speaker 2>had driven to the area near that dairy farm where

0:25:00.725 --> 0:25:05.165
<v Speaker 2>Natalie's body was found. So then he changed his story

0:25:05.485 --> 0:25:07.965
<v Speaker 2>that he did go out there with her, but he

0:25:08.085 --> 0:25:10.045
<v Speaker 2>said Natalie shot herself in the head.

0:25:10.725 --> 0:25:12.965
<v Speaker 1>Again, police knew that this wasn't.

0:25:12.765 --> 0:25:17.725
<v Speaker 2>True because there was that autopsy report. The forensic showed

0:25:17.845 --> 0:25:21.085
<v Speaker 2>that a nine millimeters shell casing was found several feet

0:25:21.085 --> 0:25:25.565
<v Speaker 2>away from Natalie. Natalie had been shot once from point

0:25:25.565 --> 0:25:28.685
<v Speaker 2>blank range, but the killer had been a few feet

0:25:28.685 --> 0:25:31.565
<v Speaker 2>away from her. In addition to that, the angle of

0:25:31.605 --> 0:25:35.005
<v Speaker 2>the bullet was all wrong. The angle, according to the

0:25:35.005 --> 0:25:40.125
<v Speaker 2>autopsy report, was left to right, front to back and downward. Now,

0:25:40.285 --> 0:25:42.805
<v Speaker 2>Natalie was on her knees at the time she was shot,

0:25:43.285 --> 0:25:46.165
<v Speaker 2>she could not have shot herself in the head using

0:25:46.205 --> 0:25:50.605
<v Speaker 2>a downward trajectory from several feet away. The story Joseph

0:25:50.645 --> 0:25:58.805
<v Speaker 2>Lopez was spinning was literally impossible. Finally, Joseph Lopez knew

0:25:58.925 --> 0:26:02.245
<v Speaker 2>that he was caught. He told police, yes, he did

0:26:02.285 --> 0:26:06.005
<v Speaker 2>shoot her, but he said Natalie begged him to shoot her.

0:26:06.045 --> 0:26:07.605
<v Speaker 1>He said they prayed together.

0:26:07.845 --> 0:26:11.245
<v Speaker 2>And that after that she quote knelt down on the

0:26:11.285 --> 0:26:14.205
<v Speaker 2>ground and that he knelt down along her left side

0:26:14.245 --> 0:26:17.685
<v Speaker 2>and slightly in front of her end quote. Then he

0:26:17.725 --> 0:26:21.365
<v Speaker 2>said he shot her. Then he fled the scene, but

0:26:21.405 --> 0:26:26.325
<v Speaker 2>not before stealing her purse and the gun. Police really

0:26:26.365 --> 0:26:30.085
<v Speaker 2>didn't believe anything, Joseph Lopez said, because number one, they

0:26:30.165 --> 0:26:32.325
<v Speaker 2>knew he was a liar, and number two, they had

0:26:32.365 --> 0:26:34.765
<v Speaker 2>started doing a deep dive into his past and what

0:26:34.805 --> 0:26:39.685
<v Speaker 2>they found was seriously disturbing. Joseph Lopez told police that

0:26:39.725 --> 0:26:42.525
<v Speaker 2>he kept a journal in high school, a journal where

0:26:42.525 --> 0:26:46.685
<v Speaker 2>he wrote stories about kidnapping people, torturing them, and executing them.

0:26:46.965 --> 0:26:51.685
<v Speaker 2>According to the Denver Post, now, there's nothing illegal or

0:26:51.725 --> 0:26:55.325
<v Speaker 2>necessarily even alarming about writing horror stories, but he told

0:26:55.405 --> 0:26:58.605
<v Speaker 2>investigators he had had fantasies about doing these things to

0:26:58.765 --> 0:27:03.965
<v Speaker 2>people for real for a long time. So at this

0:27:04.125 --> 0:27:06.605
<v Speaker 2>point people were asking a lot of questions that I

0:27:06.645 --> 0:27:10.525
<v Speaker 2>think are very interesting, Like we talk a lot about

0:27:10.565 --> 0:27:12.805
<v Speaker 2>the right to die, but we're talking about people who

0:27:12.805 --> 0:27:15.765
<v Speaker 2>are older or in pain. What about when it's a

0:27:15.805 --> 0:27:18.685
<v Speaker 2>mental health issue? What about when it's a young person.

0:27:20.405 --> 0:27:22.525
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot about this case that we still don't know,

0:27:22.565 --> 0:27:24.845
<v Speaker 2>because of course we'll never get the full truth from

0:27:24.965 --> 0:27:28.805
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Lopez, Like did Natalie take the drugs herself? Or

0:27:28.845 --> 0:27:32.525
<v Speaker 2>could Joseph Lopez have injected her with those drugs.

0:27:32.205 --> 0:27:33.565
<v Speaker 1>To calm her down?

0:27:33.925 --> 0:27:37.445
<v Speaker 2>And really, even if Natalie Ballinger did want to die,

0:27:37.765 --> 0:27:40.885
<v Speaker 2>the fact is this was still murder. Joseph Lopez was

0:27:40.925 --> 0:27:44.045
<v Speaker 2>a predator. He saw a vulnerable person, someone who was

0:27:44.085 --> 0:27:47.045
<v Speaker 2>talking about wanting to end her own life, and instead

0:27:47.045 --> 0:27:49.685
<v Speaker 2>of helping her or steering her towards some kinds of

0:27:49.725 --> 0:27:52.685
<v Speaker 2>counseling or taking her to drop her off with a

0:27:52.765 --> 0:27:56.365
<v Speaker 2>friend or family member at the hospital, he chose to

0:27:56.445 --> 0:28:00.525
<v Speaker 2>live out a sick fantasy, and he chose to make

0:28:00.565 --> 0:28:06.125
<v Speaker 2>her his victim. Joseph Lopez was charged with first murder,

0:28:06.805 --> 0:28:09.765
<v Speaker 2>and it later came out that Facebook had even played

0:28:09.805 --> 0:28:11.245
<v Speaker 2>a role in helping catch him.

0:28:11.725 --> 0:28:13.525
<v Speaker 1>The police were using old.

0:28:13.325 --> 0:28:17.005
<v Speaker 2>School detective tactics, but they were also using social media wisely,

0:28:17.485 --> 0:28:20.285
<v Speaker 2>it's actually good to see. It's good to see the

0:28:20.325 --> 0:28:23.565
<v Speaker 2>Adams County Sheriff's Department doing a really good and thorough

0:28:23.645 --> 0:28:26.165
<v Speaker 2>job of investigating and of using every tool they.

0:28:26.085 --> 0:28:27.045
<v Speaker 1>Had at their disposal.

0:28:28.285 --> 0:28:31.365
<v Speaker 2>The sheriff said they had found Joseph by searching the

0:28:31.445 --> 0:28:35.605
<v Speaker 2>phone number from Natalie's text messages on Facebook. The search

0:28:35.645 --> 0:28:38.405
<v Speaker 2>showed his mom's Facebook page and that's how they first

0:28:38.405 --> 0:28:42.285
<v Speaker 2>found him. But then after Joseph Lopez had been charged,

0:28:42.765 --> 0:28:46.325
<v Speaker 2>there was more drama because right before the trial was

0:28:46.405 --> 0:28:49.925
<v Speaker 2>due to start, Joseph Lopez was offered a plea deal.

0:28:50.685 --> 0:28:54.045
<v Speaker 2>He ended up pleading guilty to second degree murder. The

0:28:54.205 --> 0:28:56.805
<v Speaker 2>judge sentenced him to a maximum of forty eight years

0:28:56.805 --> 0:29:00.405
<v Speaker 2>in prison. That means that he will be in prison

0:29:00.605 --> 0:29:04.125
<v Speaker 2>until he's at least seventy years old, but technically it

0:29:04.165 --> 0:29:07.125
<v Speaker 2>does mean he will be eligible for parole at some

0:29:07.325 --> 0:29:12.245
<v Speaker 2>point during his life. Ted Ballinger, Natalie's father, told the

0:29:12.245 --> 0:29:16.045
<v Speaker 2>local news channel Denver seven, he was very upset about

0:29:16.045 --> 0:29:20.565
<v Speaker 2>the DA's decision to offer Joseph that deal. Ted said, quote,

0:29:20.565 --> 0:29:23.445
<v Speaker 2>there's no justice in this and for Adams County to

0:29:23.445 --> 0:29:25.725
<v Speaker 2>have enough evidence to convict him and then make him

0:29:25.725 --> 0:29:28.925
<v Speaker 2>an offer is a spit in my family's face. She

0:29:29.045 --> 0:29:30.445
<v Speaker 2>was vulnerable and drugged.

0:29:31.165 --> 0:29:31.645
<v Speaker 1>End quote.

0:29:32.605 --> 0:29:37.565
<v Speaker 2>Then he addressed Joseph Lopez and he said, quote, you premeditated,

0:29:37.645 --> 0:29:41.085
<v Speaker 2>brutally shot and killed my baby. I asked for an

0:29:41.125 --> 0:29:44.605
<v Speaker 2>eye for an eye. You've been protected. The Ballinger family

0:29:44.685 --> 0:29:47.485
<v Speaker 2>had no say in this. This is a deal with

0:29:47.565 --> 0:29:53.245
<v Speaker 2>the devil end quote. At the time, a lot of

0:29:53.285 --> 0:29:56.405
<v Speaker 2>people were talking about whether taking the plea deal was

0:29:56.445 --> 0:30:00.525
<v Speaker 2>the right move. I'm not a lawyer, so of course

0:30:00.565 --> 0:30:04.165
<v Speaker 2>this is only an opinion. But I can really see

0:30:04.205 --> 0:30:06.885
<v Speaker 2>both sides of that argument, because on the one hand, yes,

0:30:06.965 --> 0:30:10.445
<v Speaker 2>they did have a tremendous amount of evidence, this was

0:30:10.565 --> 0:30:14.805
<v Speaker 2>a premeditated murder, and they had a confession. But on

0:30:14.925 --> 0:30:19.205
<v Speaker 2>the flip side, there were some complications. For example, the

0:30:19.325 --> 0:30:23.565
<v Speaker 2>defense was trying to have some of Natalie's text messages

0:30:23.645 --> 0:30:28.365
<v Speaker 2>excluded and without going super in depth into their arguments.

0:30:28.405 --> 0:30:33.605
<v Speaker 2>If that had happened, I think that could have been catastrophic. Also,

0:30:34.005 --> 0:30:36.885
<v Speaker 2>it's always a throw of the dice when you're dealing

0:30:36.885 --> 0:30:40.605
<v Speaker 2>with a jury and human emotions, and this is such

0:30:40.645 --> 0:30:44.485
<v Speaker 2>a strange story. I would worry that even if technically

0:30:44.565 --> 0:30:47.605
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Lopez was totally guilty, that maybe there'd be one

0:30:47.725 --> 0:30:51.325
<v Speaker 2>juror who might think she wanted to end her life

0:30:51.365 --> 0:30:54.205
<v Speaker 2>and therefore they might want to let him off more lightly.

0:30:54.285 --> 0:30:56.245
<v Speaker 2>So I do think that there was some risk there,

0:30:56.885 --> 0:31:00.005
<v Speaker 2>and in the end, even though he will be eligible

0:31:00.045 --> 0:31:02.925
<v Speaker 2>for parole, he will be an old man by the

0:31:02.925 --> 0:31:06.565
<v Speaker 2>time that happens. But I can also totally respect and

0:31:06.605 --> 0:31:09.805
<v Speaker 2>appreciate the feelings of some of Natalie's family members who

0:31:09.805 --> 0:31:13.885
<v Speaker 2>feel like they were betrayed. Eventually, Natalie's family tried to

0:31:13.925 --> 0:31:19.085
<v Speaker 2>move on, so did Sean Schwartz. By the way, again,

0:31:19.245 --> 0:31:22.365
<v Speaker 2>he was never charged with anything to do with Natalie's

0:31:22.365 --> 0:31:26.725
<v Speaker 2>disappearance or death. He was completely cleared, but he continued

0:31:26.765 --> 0:31:29.565
<v Speaker 2>to experience fallout from a lot of this social media stuff.

0:31:30.125 --> 0:31:33.205
<v Speaker 2>Now some of it one could argue he fed into

0:31:33.285 --> 0:31:36.125
<v Speaker 2>himself because he was also posting, but the whole thing

0:31:36.325 --> 0:31:40.405
<v Speaker 2>just seemed to get more and more toxic. Eventually he

0:31:40.485 --> 0:31:45.325
<v Speaker 2>started feuding with Natalie's twin sister, Alisha. Eventually, Alisha took

0:31:45.365 --> 0:31:49.045
<v Speaker 2>out her own restraining order against Sean, and then in

0:31:49.085 --> 0:31:55.605
<v Speaker 2>October of twenty nineteen, Alicia disappeared. The Kansas Highway Patrol

0:31:55.725 --> 0:31:59.085
<v Speaker 2>confirmed that there was a vehicle that was involved in

0:31:59.125 --> 0:32:02.485
<v Speaker 2>a police pursuit. Alicia was a passenger in that vehicle.

0:32:04.445 --> 0:32:07.485
<v Speaker 2>After police stopped the car, they took Alisha to a

0:32:07.525 --> 0:32:13.045
<v Speaker 2>hotel where they dropped her off, and after that she vanished. Fortunately,

0:32:13.085 --> 0:32:15.645
<v Speaker 2>Alicia was found a few days later. She was safe

0:32:15.685 --> 0:32:22.085
<v Speaker 2>and well. After the drama between Sean and Alicia, some

0:32:22.245 --> 0:32:25.125
<v Speaker 2>other members of Natalie's family were saying they didn't feel

0:32:25.125 --> 0:32:28.885
<v Speaker 2>safe either. They feel like Natalie's fear of Sean was

0:32:28.965 --> 0:32:31.205
<v Speaker 2>part of the stresses that she was experiencing during the

0:32:31.245 --> 0:32:36.805
<v Speaker 2>last days of her life. I can certainly appreciate their perspective.

0:32:36.925 --> 0:32:39.445
<v Speaker 2>For me, this whole case has exposed the fact that

0:32:39.485 --> 0:32:43.005
<v Speaker 2>you have vulnerable people. These are not public people, and

0:32:43.045 --> 0:32:45.685
<v Speaker 2>when they feel like they're being stalked or targeted online,

0:32:46.045 --> 0:32:50.085
<v Speaker 2>or their families are being stalked at times, online sleuthing

0:32:50.285 --> 0:32:53.925
<v Speaker 2>can be really dangerous. I think about this every single

0:32:54.005 --> 0:32:57.045
<v Speaker 2>day in my job, because there's no doubt that Facebook

0:32:57.165 --> 0:33:00.765
<v Speaker 2>and other social media can be very powerful tools. They

0:33:00.805 --> 0:33:03.885
<v Speaker 2>can give us information about what was inside of victim's

0:33:03.965 --> 0:33:07.005
<v Speaker 2>mind before they disappeared or murdered. They can put you

0:33:07.045 --> 0:33:09.445
<v Speaker 2>in touch with people they can make people feel comfortable

0:33:09.485 --> 0:33:12.325
<v Speaker 2>about reaching out to me and others. But I think

0:33:12.325 --> 0:33:14.965
<v Speaker 2>we have to be very careful with social media. We

0:33:14.965 --> 0:33:18.885
<v Speaker 2>should be polite and courteous, back everything up with solid facts,

0:33:18.925 --> 0:33:21.485
<v Speaker 2>and not succumb to what I call this kind of

0:33:21.565 --> 0:33:23.205
<v Speaker 2>mob mentality.

0:33:26.845 --> 0:33:27.925
<v Speaker 1>Whenever I find.

0:33:27.645 --> 0:33:30.525
<v Speaker 2>Myself spending too long on social media, I start to

0:33:30.565 --> 0:33:33.605
<v Speaker 2>remember I'm a reporter. I have two degrees in journalism,

0:33:33.685 --> 0:33:35.485
<v Speaker 2>I have a PI license, and I'm going back to

0:33:35.525 --> 0:33:38.125
<v Speaker 2>the basics. I go out in the field, get some

0:33:38.205 --> 0:33:41.205
<v Speaker 2>fresh air, try to get some interviews, or if I

0:33:41.285 --> 0:33:45.645
<v Speaker 2>need another perspective, I will find an expert with credentials

0:33:45.685 --> 0:33:48.445
<v Speaker 2>to comment on a case, not just ask random people

0:33:48.485 --> 0:33:52.205
<v Speaker 2>on Facebook. I think about the Natalie Bollinger case for

0:33:52.245 --> 0:33:55.605
<v Speaker 2>another reason, As someone who suffered from depression. I think

0:33:55.645 --> 0:33:58.805
<v Speaker 2>about some of the darkest times in my own life. Luckily,

0:33:58.845 --> 0:34:02.045
<v Speaker 2>for me, I've had wonderful friends and family who have

0:34:02.125 --> 0:34:05.365
<v Speaker 2>been there for me at my darkest times. But even

0:34:05.605 --> 0:34:10.685
<v Speaker 2>with that, depression can be fatal. Sometimes in the depths

0:34:10.685 --> 0:34:14.965
<v Speaker 2>of depression, people do feel more comfortable talking.

0:34:14.645 --> 0:34:15.565
<v Speaker 1>To a stranger.

0:34:16.405 --> 0:34:19.245
<v Speaker 2>I just wish that the stranger that Natalie had reached

0:34:19.285 --> 0:34:21.925
<v Speaker 2>out to was someone who cared about her, not a

0:34:21.965 --> 0:34:25.005
<v Speaker 2>psychopath who just wanted to use her to enact his

0:34:25.045 --> 0:34:28.925
<v Speaker 2>own fantasies. And not to be corny or anything, but

0:34:28.965 --> 0:34:31.925
<v Speaker 2>I put this episode out this week before the holidays

0:34:32.325 --> 0:34:34.965
<v Speaker 2>because I just wanted to remind everyone, even though we

0:34:35.045 --> 0:34:37.925
<v Speaker 2>are talking about crime, so many of these stories are

0:34:37.965 --> 0:34:40.725
<v Speaker 2>horrific and they involve people doing very bad things to

0:34:40.765 --> 0:34:44.325
<v Speaker 2>each other. I truly believe that the best way to

0:34:44.405 --> 0:34:47.405
<v Speaker 2>try to find answers and justice is about all of

0:34:47.485 --> 0:34:51.045
<v Speaker 2>us coming together, helping each other, being curious, and always

0:34:51.045 --> 0:34:54.205
<v Speaker 2>being polite and kind, because in the end, that's how

0:34:54.205 --> 0:34:55.325
<v Speaker 2>we're going to find these answers.

0:34:55.365 --> 0:34:56.285
<v Speaker 1>I really believe that.

0:34:56.765 --> 0:34:58.645
<v Speaker 2>So I just want to say to everybody out there

0:34:58.685 --> 0:35:02.645
<v Speaker 2>this holiday season and beyond, please be careful, be kind,

0:35:02.885 --> 0:35:05.485
<v Speaker 2>and take care of each other. I'll talk to you

0:35:05.565 --> 0:35:09.805
<v Speaker 2>all after the holidays. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen

0:35:09.845 --> 0:35:14.805
<v Speaker 2>Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production

0:35:14.845 --> 0:35:17.725
<v Speaker 2>of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and

0:35:17.805 --> 0:35:20.885
<v Speaker 2>narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts.

0:35:21.485 --> 0:35:22.925
<v Speaker 1>Music is by Ben Sale.

0:35:23.765 --> 0:35:27.685
<v Speaker 2>Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Else Crowley.

0:35:28.165 --> 0:35:29.805
<v Speaker 2>If you have a case you'd like me and my

0:35:29.885 --> 0:35:32.165
<v Speaker 2>team to look into, you can reach out to us

0:35:32.205 --> 0:35:34.605
<v Speaker 2>at our Helen Gone Murder Line. It's six seven eight

0:35:34.885 --> 0:35:38.445
<v Speaker 2>seven four four six one four five. That's six seven

0:35:38.485 --> 0:35:41.205
<v Speaker 2>eight seven four four six ' one four five.

0:35:48.965 --> 0:35:50.165
<v Speaker 1>School of Humans