1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:09,125 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:11,525 --> 00:00:14,445 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, this episode's going to be a little bit 3 00:00:14,485 --> 00:00:16,845 Speaker 2: different from the other ones you've heard so far, because 4 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:19,605 Speaker 2: this time I'm talking about a case that has been solved, 5 00:00:20,085 --> 00:00:22,965 Speaker 2: so there was closure, and it's a case that I 6 00:00:23,045 --> 00:00:26,485 Speaker 2: covered as a journalist. I decided to make this our 7 00:00:26,605 --> 00:00:30,605 Speaker 2: kind of Hell and Gone Special Christmas episode because I 8 00:00:30,685 --> 00:00:32,965 Speaker 2: really wanted to share this case with you. I learned 9 00:00:33,005 --> 00:00:35,885 Speaker 2: a lot from it. It happened about this time of year, 10 00:00:35,965 --> 00:00:40,125 Speaker 2: around the holidays in twenty seventeen. It's also a case 11 00:00:40,325 --> 00:00:44,085 Speaker 2: with the wildest twist I've ever seen, and I'm not 12 00:00:44,085 --> 00:00:46,805 Speaker 2: saying that lightly because I've seen a lot. The person 13 00:00:46,805 --> 00:00:51,845 Speaker 2: who committed the murder is not anyone that the public 14 00:00:52,125 --> 00:00:56,525 Speaker 2: suspected at all. Most importantly, I'm sharing this because I 15 00:00:56,565 --> 00:01:00,845 Speaker 2: think it contains an incredibly important cautionary tale about the 16 00:01:00,965 --> 00:01:04,325 Speaker 2: dangers of social media the impact it can have on 17 00:01:04,405 --> 00:01:07,805 Speaker 2: crime stories, both for the victims and the victims' families, 18 00:01:07,885 --> 00:01:11,365 Speaker 2: and for the people reporting on these cases. By the way, 19 00:01:11,405 --> 00:01:14,205 Speaker 2: I am still working on the Christina Pipkin case. I'm 20 00:01:14,245 --> 00:01:17,485 Speaker 2: doing interviews. I've had a huge response. We've had hundreds 21 00:01:17,485 --> 00:01:20,925 Speaker 2: of calls. The people in Hickory Ridge and around Arkansas 22 00:01:20,965 --> 00:01:24,725 Speaker 2: and actually around the country have been super helpful and 23 00:01:24,805 --> 00:01:28,125 Speaker 2: we're making a lot of progress in that case. I'm 24 00:01:28,125 --> 00:01:30,925 Speaker 2: going to be doing another episode on Christina's case, my 25 00:01:31,085 --> 00:01:34,085 Speaker 2: final one for now, when we come back in January 26 00:01:34,125 --> 00:01:37,645 Speaker 2: after a break next week. So back to this week's case. 27 00:01:40,045 --> 00:01:43,565 Speaker 2: It all started in Broomfield, Colorado, on December twenty eighth, 28 00:01:43,645 --> 00:01:47,645 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, nineteen year old Natalie Bollinger was at home 29 00:01:47,645 --> 00:01:52,725 Speaker 2: in her apartment. Natalie lived with her boyfriend, Joseph Joey Marino. 30 00:01:53,285 --> 00:01:55,965 Speaker 2: She had moved to Colorado the year before to be 31 00:01:56,045 --> 00:01:58,805 Speaker 2: near her dad, Ted and her twin sister Alicia, and 32 00:01:58,845 --> 00:02:03,845 Speaker 2: some other family members. Natalie's mother, Roe's self lived in Virginia. 33 00:02:04,525 --> 00:02:08,445 Speaker 2: According to her a Bitchctuary, Natalie was, for the most part, 34 00:02:08,485 --> 00:02:12,245 Speaker 2: a normal teenage girl. She loved animals and nature, and 35 00:02:12,325 --> 00:02:14,725 Speaker 2: had recently enrolled in college with the goal of becoming 36 00:02:14,765 --> 00:02:18,485 Speaker 2: a registered nurse. All of her friends and family described 37 00:02:18,525 --> 00:02:20,965 Speaker 2: her as kind and loving, the kind of person who 38 00:02:20,965 --> 00:02:23,685 Speaker 2: would do anything to help a friend in need. But 39 00:02:23,845 --> 00:02:27,165 Speaker 2: Natalie Bollinger had also had a tough year. She had 40 00:02:27,205 --> 00:02:30,405 Speaker 2: been suffering from depression and going through a lot of stress. 41 00:02:30,045 --> 00:02:31,365 Speaker 1: In her life. 42 00:02:31,445 --> 00:02:35,045 Speaker 2: She had also at different points in her life, used drugs, 43 00:02:35,165 --> 00:02:40,405 Speaker 2: including methamphetamines and heroin, and she posted on Facebook about 44 00:02:40,405 --> 00:02:45,845 Speaker 2: her experimentation with drugs. Joey, Natalie's boyfriend, said he went 45 00:02:45,885 --> 00:02:48,365 Speaker 2: to work at six am that morning. When he got 46 00:02:48,365 --> 00:02:52,485 Speaker 2: home that afternoon at three eighteen pm, Natalie was gone. 47 00:02:52,685 --> 00:02:54,485 Speaker 1: Joey also had. 48 00:02:54,245 --> 00:02:56,965 Speaker 2: A nine millimeter glock and he noticed that his gun 49 00:02:57,045 --> 00:03:01,085 Speaker 2: was gone. He apparently tried to call Natalie, but when 50 00:03:01,085 --> 00:03:03,125 Speaker 2: he did, he noticed that her cell phone was at 51 00:03:03,125 --> 00:03:07,365 Speaker 2: home too. That's when Joey became alarmed because Natalie was 52 00:03:07,525 --> 00:03:10,125 Speaker 2: very active on social media. She was not the kind 53 00:03:10,125 --> 00:03:11,925 Speaker 2: of person to leave her cell phone at home for 54 00:03:12,005 --> 00:03:15,885 Speaker 2: long periods of time. Joey called the police and reported 55 00:03:15,965 --> 00:03:20,205 Speaker 2: Natalie missing. He also called Natalie's mom Rose. He told 56 00:03:20,245 --> 00:03:22,765 Speaker 2: her he was worried because Natalie's phone was at the house, 57 00:03:23,085 --> 00:03:25,685 Speaker 2: her coat was there, her shoes were there, and remember 58 00:03:25,685 --> 00:03:28,405 Speaker 2: this is the middle of winter and she was just gone. 59 00:03:29,565 --> 00:03:33,925 Speaker 2: Police said at the time that at first they weren't 60 00:03:34,005 --> 00:03:37,085 Speaker 2: overly worried because Natalie was nineteen years old, she had 61 00:03:37,125 --> 00:03:40,285 Speaker 2: the right to disappear or not contact people, and she 62 00:03:40,405 --> 00:03:44,045 Speaker 2: and Joey had gotten into some arguments like normal couples, 63 00:03:44,845 --> 00:03:47,645 Speaker 2: but family members let police know it was very unlike 64 00:03:47,725 --> 00:03:50,405 Speaker 2: Natalie not to be on social media at all, and 65 00:03:50,525 --> 00:03:54,125 Speaker 2: also family members let police know that Natalie had been 66 00:03:54,165 --> 00:03:59,285 Speaker 2: dealing with depression and other issues. By the next day, Friday, 67 00:03:59,285 --> 00:04:04,205 Speaker 2: December twenty eighth, police were seriously concerned. Over the next 68 00:04:04,245 --> 00:04:07,485 Speaker 2: few days, the search for Natalie Bollinger made local and 69 00:04:07,525 --> 00:04:12,045 Speaker 2: then national news. Missing posters of Natalie with her distinctive look, 70 00:04:12,525 --> 00:04:14,725 Speaker 2: the tattoo of a three eyed cat on the nape 71 00:04:14,765 --> 00:04:17,925 Speaker 2: of her neck, and purple hair were posted everywhere in town. 72 00:04:20,885 --> 00:04:22,685 Speaker 1: The next day, on December twenty. 73 00:04:22,565 --> 00:04:25,205 Speaker 2: Ninth, police got a tip that a body had been 74 00:04:25,245 --> 00:04:29,165 Speaker 2: found on land belonging to the Macintosh Dairy Farm. The 75 00:04:29,205 --> 00:04:32,005 Speaker 2: body was in a wooded area north of Denver, Colorado, 76 00:04:33,005 --> 00:04:36,885 Speaker 2: and later once police described the tattoo on the body 77 00:04:37,005 --> 00:04:41,125 Speaker 2: the three eyed cat to Natalie's family, they were able 78 00:04:41,165 --> 00:04:45,845 Speaker 2: to confirm that the body found was Natalie Ballinger. She 79 00:04:45,925 --> 00:04:50,205 Speaker 2: was wearing black jeans, a black hoodie, black boots, and socks. 80 00:04:50,605 --> 00:04:51,765 Speaker 1: She was covered in leaves. 81 00:04:52,805 --> 00:04:56,165 Speaker 2: Investigators determined that she had been dead since the day 82 00:04:56,205 --> 00:05:02,405 Speaker 2: she went missing. I'm Catherine Townsend. If you have a 83 00:05:02,445 --> 00:05:04,325 Speaker 2: case you'd like me and my team to look into. 84 00:05:04,845 --> 00:05:06,765 Speaker 2: You can reach out to us at our Helen Gone 85 00:05:06,805 --> 00:05:10,165 Speaker 2: Murder Line at six seven eight seven four four six 86 00:05:10,285 --> 00:05:14,045 Speaker 2: one four five. That's six seven eight seven four four 87 00:05:14,485 --> 00:06:12,965 Speaker 2: six one four five. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. 88 00:06:13,045 --> 00:06:18,165 Speaker 2: I first became involved in Natalie's case back in twenty seventeen, 89 00:06:18,325 --> 00:06:21,725 Speaker 2: right after she went missing. I was working with Investigation Discovery, 90 00:06:21,845 --> 00:06:24,165 Speaker 2: and when I wrote the article about it, I called 91 00:06:24,165 --> 00:06:27,845 Speaker 2: this case a social media murder mystery because social media 92 00:06:27,925 --> 00:06:31,565 Speaker 2: was involved at every single stage, and at every single stage, 93 00:06:31,565 --> 00:06:34,125 Speaker 2: in my opinion, it both helped and hurt the case. 94 00:06:35,125 --> 00:06:39,125 Speaker 2: It started early when Natalie's father, Ted Ballinger, posted a 95 00:06:39,165 --> 00:06:42,725 Speaker 2: message on a TV news station's Facebook page. It read, 96 00:06:43,125 --> 00:06:45,365 Speaker 2: just left the sheriff, my daughter was murdered. 97 00:06:46,485 --> 00:06:46,685 Speaker 1: Now. 98 00:06:46,685 --> 00:06:50,805 Speaker 2: This was before police officially publicly confirmed that the body 99 00:06:50,845 --> 00:06:55,565 Speaker 2: found had been Natalie. Police said social media did help 100 00:06:55,645 --> 00:06:58,765 Speaker 2: the case in some ways. The Adams County Sheriff Mike 101 00:06:58,885 --> 00:07:03,325 Speaker 2: McIntosh said that those Facebook photos of Natalie's distinctive tattoos 102 00:07:03,725 --> 00:07:07,965 Speaker 2: helped them identify her body. Then there was no news 103 00:07:08,005 --> 00:07:10,685 Speaker 2: for several days. The whole town was talking about the case. 104 00:07:11,445 --> 00:07:15,285 Speaker 2: On January third, Sheriff Macintosh held a press conference at 105 00:07:15,325 --> 00:07:18,565 Speaker 2: the time. He said, quote, I feel comfortable saying that 106 00:07:18,605 --> 00:07:22,245 Speaker 2: there's not a threat to the community. End quote now. 107 00:07:22,285 --> 00:07:24,965 Speaker 2: Even though police did not say much more about the 108 00:07:25,045 --> 00:07:29,045 Speaker 2: murder investigation, if you listen to this podcast or any 109 00:07:29,085 --> 00:07:33,565 Speaker 2: other true crime podcast, you know that when police want 110 00:07:33,605 --> 00:07:36,805 Speaker 2: to convey that they believe that the murder was personal 111 00:07:37,205 --> 00:07:40,605 Speaker 2: and not, for example, something a random stranger did, this 112 00:07:40,645 --> 00:07:45,605 Speaker 2: is often what they'll say. After that, people started to 113 00:07:45,685 --> 00:07:49,965 Speaker 2: speculate that Natalie had some sort of relationship with her 114 00:07:50,045 --> 00:07:53,245 Speaker 2: killer was someone that she knew, and that's when all 115 00:07:53,285 --> 00:07:56,365 Speaker 2: hell broke loose on social media. First of all, you 116 00:07:56,445 --> 00:08:01,605 Speaker 2: had Natalie's family and they were arguing amongst themselves. Natalie's father, Ted, 117 00:08:01,685 --> 00:08:04,045 Speaker 2: had started to gofund me, but there was some controversy 118 00:08:04,085 --> 00:08:08,205 Speaker 2: about that. People made allegations that the money wasn't being 119 00:08:08,325 --> 00:08:12,085 Speaker 2: used properly. On January eighth, Ted said that the funeral 120 00:08:12,125 --> 00:08:15,165 Speaker 2: would be the following day, but later he said the 121 00:08:15,205 --> 00:08:18,645 Speaker 2: services were canceled due to what he called issues with funding. 122 00:08:19,325 --> 00:08:22,245 Speaker 2: And then on January eleven, the other side of the family, 123 00:08:22,485 --> 00:08:25,805 Speaker 2: her mom, Rose, and some others said they were having 124 00:08:25,845 --> 00:08:30,565 Speaker 2: memorial services for Natalie in Virginia. Eventually, Natalie's funeral was 125 00:08:30,605 --> 00:08:38,165 Speaker 2: held at the Church of Saint Teres in Chesapeake, Virginia. 126 00:08:38,285 --> 00:08:42,445 Speaker 2: Since Natalie's social media was public, a lot of people 127 00:08:42,485 --> 00:08:45,925 Speaker 2: went to her Facebook page and they found very detailed 128 00:08:45,925 --> 00:08:48,165 Speaker 2: descriptions of what she had been going through in the 129 00:08:48,285 --> 00:08:51,965 Speaker 2: days and months before her death. Very quickly they saw 130 00:08:52,045 --> 00:08:54,125 Speaker 2: she had been dealing with a guy, someone she was 131 00:08:54,165 --> 00:08:57,645 Speaker 2: scared of, and the final update on her Facebook page 132 00:08:58,005 --> 00:09:02,325 Speaker 2: was a post about Natalie being stalked. Natalie's life had 133 00:09:02,365 --> 00:09:04,805 Speaker 2: a dark side, a dark side that she wrote about 134 00:09:04,805 --> 00:09:07,605 Speaker 2: on social media. Yet she talked about her problems at 135 00:09:07,645 --> 00:09:10,725 Speaker 2: home with some family members, about depression, and about her 136 00:09:10,765 --> 00:09:15,725 Speaker 2: experimentation with drugs, and of course, social media sleuics immediately 137 00:09:15,765 --> 00:09:19,365 Speaker 2: started looking up information on anyone who was even tangentially 138 00:09:19,365 --> 00:09:25,205 Speaker 2: connected to Natalie, including her father Ted. Ted had a 139 00:09:25,245 --> 00:09:29,285 Speaker 2: criminal record that included arrest for burglary, car theft, some 140 00:09:29,405 --> 00:09:33,645 Speaker 2: drug charges, and felony assault. This is all, by the way, 141 00:09:33,685 --> 00:09:36,605 Speaker 2: according to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation court records. 142 00:09:38,005 --> 00:09:39,245 Speaker 1: Two weeks before she. 143 00:09:39,285 --> 00:09:42,485 Speaker 2: Disappeared, Natalie posted a statement on Facebook. 144 00:09:43,245 --> 00:09:44,405 Speaker 1: In that post, she. 145 00:09:44,405 --> 00:09:47,885 Speaker 2: Said she was scared because she said she was being 146 00:09:47,925 --> 00:09:51,525 Speaker 2: stalked by a thirty seven year old man named Shawn Schwartz. 147 00:09:52,285 --> 00:09:53,085 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. 148 00:09:59,445 --> 00:10:03,085 Speaker 2: Sean Swartz with someone Natalie had met a few years earlier. 149 00:10:03,765 --> 00:10:06,085 Speaker 2: Then they lost contact for a while, and in twenty 150 00:10:06,165 --> 00:10:10,685 Speaker 2: fifteen they seemed to reconnect as friends. Sean also had 151 00:10:10,685 --> 00:10:13,365 Speaker 2: a criminal record. He had been charged with theft in 152 00:10:13,405 --> 00:10:19,085 Speaker 2: the past. For a while, Sean and Natalie became confidants 153 00:10:19,125 --> 00:10:21,765 Speaker 2: and they seemed to really share a lot of their 154 00:10:21,805 --> 00:10:24,805 Speaker 2: problems with each other and support each other. But then 155 00:10:24,845 --> 00:10:28,005 Speaker 2: it seemed like things started to turn. Seawan was becoming 156 00:10:28,045 --> 00:10:31,045 Speaker 2: fixated on her, and if you read the text messages, 157 00:10:31,125 --> 00:10:37,125 Speaker 2: it seems like his fixation increased pretty dramatically throughout twenty seventeen. Later, 158 00:10:37,405 --> 00:10:41,245 Speaker 2: he posted long text messages and social media message exchanges 159 00:10:41,325 --> 00:10:44,365 Speaker 2: between him and Natalie where they shared the details of 160 00:10:44,405 --> 00:10:47,845 Speaker 2: their lives and supported each other. But at some point 161 00:10:47,965 --> 00:10:50,725 Speaker 2: it seemed like Natalie started to become afraid of Sean. 162 00:10:51,525 --> 00:10:55,165 Speaker 2: Natalie claimed that Sean was obsessed with her, and she 163 00:10:55,285 --> 00:10:57,805 Speaker 2: claimed he had driven across the country to see her 164 00:10:58,285 --> 00:11:02,485 Speaker 2: and slept behind her work for weeks. She wrote quote 165 00:11:02,805 --> 00:11:05,685 Speaker 2: he sent emails for over a year close to every day, 166 00:11:05,765 --> 00:11:09,525 Speaker 2: harassing me, making numerous different accounts until I'll block him again, 167 00:11:10,085 --> 00:11:13,045 Speaker 2: threatening my family, telling me he'll kill himself in front 168 00:11:13,045 --> 00:11:16,325 Speaker 2: of me, and sending my friends and family threatening messages 169 00:11:16,365 --> 00:11:16,765 Speaker 2: as well. 170 00:11:17,125 --> 00:11:18,605 Speaker 1: End quote. 171 00:11:18,965 --> 00:11:23,485 Speaker 2: On December fourteenth, twenty seventeen, Natalie went to the police 172 00:11:23,605 --> 00:11:27,005 Speaker 2: and asked for a temporary restraining order. That restraining order 173 00:11:27,045 --> 00:11:30,325 Speaker 2: was granted, and a few days later it was made permanent. 174 00:11:31,085 --> 00:11:32,685 Speaker 1: She posted copies of. 175 00:11:32,685 --> 00:11:37,165 Speaker 2: The restraining order online and from that we could see 176 00:11:37,605 --> 00:11:40,325 Speaker 2: that she claimed that Sean would show up in his 177 00:11:40,405 --> 00:11:43,405 Speaker 2: car and sit outside her house for hours. When she 178 00:11:43,445 --> 00:11:45,965 Speaker 2: didn't come out, he would literally just lay on the 179 00:11:46,005 --> 00:11:51,045 Speaker 2: horn four hours at a time. So, of course, because 180 00:11:51,365 --> 00:11:54,045 Speaker 2: Natalie had described this alleged stalking incident and it was 181 00:11:54,085 --> 00:11:57,285 Speaker 2: one of her last posts ever on social media, people 182 00:11:57,405 --> 00:12:01,765 Speaker 2: immediately focused on Sean and pretty soon they were asking 183 00:12:02,165 --> 00:12:04,325 Speaker 2: why wasn't he a person of interest? Why wasn't he 184 00:12:04,365 --> 00:12:09,165 Speaker 2: being arrested. Meanwhile, Sean said he wasn't even in Colorado 185 00:12:09,205 --> 00:12:11,965 Speaker 2: at the time Natalie disappeared. He said he had nothing 186 00:12:11,965 --> 00:12:14,325 Speaker 2: to do with her disappearance, and he said he could 187 00:12:14,365 --> 00:12:19,005 Speaker 2: prove where he was because he had receipts. Sean's social 188 00:12:19,085 --> 00:12:23,165 Speaker 2: media showed videos of him posting these long rants against 189 00:12:23,205 --> 00:12:27,805 Speaker 2: the system and sometimes against Natalie's family. Some of these 190 00:12:27,885 --> 00:12:31,885 Speaker 2: videos seem pretty scary, but at the same time, Shawn 191 00:12:31,965 --> 00:12:35,645 Speaker 2: also seemed like a vulnerable person. According to his own 192 00:12:35,685 --> 00:12:39,045 Speaker 2: description of himself, he had mental health issues and nowhere 193 00:12:39,085 --> 00:12:39,405 Speaker 2: to live. 194 00:12:40,045 --> 00:12:41,165 Speaker 1: So this was a. 195 00:12:41,165 --> 00:12:45,125 Speaker 2: Bollettle situation because you have one person who's been murdered, 196 00:12:45,525 --> 00:12:47,725 Speaker 2: you have a person who's kind of living on the streets. 197 00:12:47,765 --> 00:12:51,725 Speaker 2: And also said that they had medical conditions including Aspergers 198 00:12:51,725 --> 00:12:57,365 Speaker 2: and Tourette's syndrome, things that can cause miscommunications. Sean said 199 00:12:57,405 --> 00:13:00,485 Speaker 2: he was unfairly, in his words, convicted in the court 200 00:13:00,485 --> 00:13:05,165 Speaker 2: of public opinion. Sheriff McIntosh tried to calm down this 201 00:13:05,205 --> 00:13:08,845 Speaker 2: social media storm and made a comment about how Facebook 202 00:13:08,885 --> 00:13:12,365 Speaker 2: had been a mixed blessing in this case. The sheriff said, quote, 203 00:13:12,725 --> 00:13:15,405 Speaker 2: Facebook gets to put out that information before we can 204 00:13:15,445 --> 00:13:17,765 Speaker 2: go through our official steps to make sure that we 205 00:13:17,805 --> 00:13:20,845 Speaker 2: get it right. In today's day and age, it's kind 206 00:13:20,845 --> 00:13:23,685 Speaker 2: of fascinating how much information we can gain from that. 207 00:13:24,245 --> 00:13:26,885 Speaker 2: On the other hand, there is a lot of information 208 00:13:27,045 --> 00:13:31,525 Speaker 2: that is absolutely untrue, false accusations. Our goal is to 209 00:13:31,565 --> 00:13:33,885 Speaker 2: make sure that we're not headed down a rabbit trail 210 00:13:34,125 --> 00:13:37,925 Speaker 2: that we don't need to go down end quote. And 211 00:13:38,005 --> 00:13:41,365 Speaker 2: I think the sheriff's statement really epitomizes the reality of 212 00:13:41,405 --> 00:13:42,765 Speaker 2: social media in these cases. 213 00:13:43,525 --> 00:13:45,845 Speaker 1: I'll admit I sometimes get sucked into it too. 214 00:13:47,445 --> 00:13:51,485 Speaker 2: When hundreds and thousands of people started discussing Natalie's case online, 215 00:13:51,485 --> 00:13:55,125 Speaker 2: and these groups calling for justice for Natalie Ballinger began 216 00:13:55,205 --> 00:13:58,285 Speaker 2: popping up on Facebook, I was looking at them as well. 217 00:13:58,325 --> 00:14:00,605 Speaker 2: People were staying up late at night and going down 218 00:14:00,725 --> 00:14:05,325 Speaker 2: all kinds of weird rabbit holes. But then I started 219 00:14:05,365 --> 00:14:09,085 Speaker 2: to get nervous because people went from sharing information to 220 00:14:09,165 --> 00:14:13,005 Speaker 2: having this kind of mob mentality. The mob mentality towards 221 00:14:13,005 --> 00:14:16,605 Speaker 2: Sean started to scare me, especially once it became clear 222 00:14:17,325 --> 00:14:24,525 Speaker 2: that he really was having issues. In the beginning of 223 00:14:24,525 --> 00:14:28,445 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, I was worried that this whole situation was 224 00:14:28,445 --> 00:14:31,325 Speaker 2: building towards something bad, that something very bad was going 225 00:14:31,405 --> 00:14:35,085 Speaker 2: to happen. People were literally messaging Sean and trying to 226 00:14:35,085 --> 00:14:38,165 Speaker 2: figure out where he was. By this point, he had 227 00:14:38,245 --> 00:14:41,005 Speaker 2: gone to Boulder. He said he couldn't stay with family 228 00:14:41,045 --> 00:14:44,605 Speaker 2: and was basically staying between motels in the street. I 229 00:14:44,645 --> 00:14:47,645 Speaker 2: found myself getting very concerned for him. Also, some of 230 00:14:47,645 --> 00:14:51,845 Speaker 2: his posts seemed very irrational and rambling. I started to 231 00:14:51,885 --> 00:14:54,805 Speaker 2: wonder would he do something to someone else, would someone 232 00:14:54,845 --> 00:14:57,925 Speaker 2: do something to him. The way that everything was playing 233 00:14:57,925 --> 00:15:01,605 Speaker 2: out uncontrolled, in this really public and frankly terrifying way, 234 00:15:02,085 --> 00:15:06,685 Speaker 2: seemed like it was spiraling toward some type of terrifying conclusion. 235 00:15:08,405 --> 00:15:12,685 Speaker 2: On January fifth, Sean posted on Facebook basically challenging the 236 00:15:12,725 --> 00:15:15,685 Speaker 2: police to come find him and, in his words, put 237 00:15:15,725 --> 00:15:16,405 Speaker 2: me in the ground. 238 00:15:17,525 --> 00:15:18,965 Speaker 1: Police arrested him that night. 239 00:15:19,365 --> 00:15:21,685 Speaker 2: He was charged with second degree assault on a peace 240 00:15:21,685 --> 00:15:25,405 Speaker 2: officer and with resisting arrest. Then he was released on 241 00:15:25,485 --> 00:15:28,965 Speaker 2: bail and posted a video saying the police had assaulted him. 242 00:15:29,245 --> 00:15:31,965 Speaker 2: He wrote that he quote wanted my life to be 243 00:15:32,005 --> 00:15:34,685 Speaker 2: over because my friends were afraid, not afraid of me, 244 00:15:35,285 --> 00:15:39,525 Speaker 2: but afraid of public opinion end quote. He then said 245 00:15:39,605 --> 00:15:43,765 Speaker 2: that the bolder police had antagonized the situation, assaulted him, 246 00:15:44,205 --> 00:15:45,725 Speaker 2: and then charged him with assault. 247 00:15:46,565 --> 00:15:48,645 Speaker 1: He alleged the police. 248 00:15:48,165 --> 00:15:51,445 Speaker 2: And his opinion, were hoping that a vigilanti would kill him, 249 00:15:51,685 --> 00:15:53,445 Speaker 2: and when that didn't happen, they threw him in jail, 250 00:15:56,245 --> 00:15:58,285 Speaker 2: and he claimed the police had lied to him. He 251 00:15:58,405 --> 00:16:00,125 Speaker 2: said they told him he was going to go to 252 00:16:00,165 --> 00:16:02,045 Speaker 2: a safe place where he could sit down and fill 253 00:16:02,085 --> 00:16:04,965 Speaker 2: out a report, but he was taken to the hospital instead, 254 00:16:05,005 --> 00:16:06,925 Speaker 2: and he could not handle the environment there, so I 255 00:16:06,965 --> 00:16:10,205 Speaker 2: ended up leaving. Now, the police claimed they were trying 256 00:16:10,205 --> 00:16:12,645 Speaker 2: to help Sean by taking him to the hospital, but 257 00:16:12,725 --> 00:16:16,725 Speaker 2: that Sean became uncooperative and started kicking and fighting with them. 258 00:16:17,165 --> 00:16:20,605 Speaker 2: They say that's why he ended up with the assault charge. 259 00:16:20,645 --> 00:16:23,925 Speaker 2: Whatever the reality of all that, you have a situation 260 00:16:24,205 --> 00:16:27,085 Speaker 2: where in January you have this incident with Sean and 261 00:16:27,125 --> 00:16:30,205 Speaker 2: the police. You have headlines saying that a person of 262 00:16:30,285 --> 00:16:33,365 Speaker 2: interest in Natalie's case was arrested. And even though the 263 00:16:33,445 --> 00:16:37,685 Speaker 2: articles did say that Sean was arrested on an unrelated charge, 264 00:16:38,085 --> 00:16:40,125 Speaker 2: let's be real, a lot of people don't read that 265 00:16:40,205 --> 00:16:40,805 Speaker 2: fine print. 266 00:16:41,165 --> 00:16:42,365 Speaker 1: They just see the headlines. 267 00:16:42,805 --> 00:16:45,725 Speaker 2: So what they saw was that Sean had been arrested, 268 00:16:46,125 --> 00:16:49,565 Speaker 2: and they saw Natalie's name, and again this added to 269 00:16:49,605 --> 00:16:52,925 Speaker 2: that public perception that Sean could have had something to 270 00:16:52,925 --> 00:16:56,365 Speaker 2: do with Natalie's murder. I should add that during this time, 271 00:16:56,405 --> 00:16:58,685 Speaker 2: there were a lot of people trying to help Sean, 272 00:16:59,165 --> 00:17:01,845 Speaker 2: sending him supportive messages, but there were also a lot 273 00:17:01,885 --> 00:17:07,325 Speaker 2: of people following everything that he said online and virtually 274 00:17:07,325 --> 00:17:15,645 Speaker 2: stalking him. Then the case took another dangerous and crazy twist. 275 00:17:17,005 --> 00:17:20,605 Speaker 2: Sean posted a Facebook live video which has now been deleted, 276 00:17:21,045 --> 00:17:23,485 Speaker 2: of himself in a motel where he said he had 277 00:17:23,525 --> 00:17:26,965 Speaker 2: been driven to take his own life. The video showed 278 00:17:27,045 --> 00:17:31,725 Speaker 2: him taking pills from a pudding cup. Several people who 279 00:17:31,765 --> 00:17:35,885 Speaker 2: saw the video managed to contact emergency services. Paramedics rushed 280 00:17:35,885 --> 00:17:38,125 Speaker 2: to the scene and they treated him. Sean made a 281 00:17:38,165 --> 00:17:44,925 Speaker 2: full recovery. And while this whole thing with Sean was 282 00:17:44,965 --> 00:17:49,565 Speaker 2: playing out so publicly on social media, in the background, 283 00:17:50,205 --> 00:17:53,245 Speaker 2: other people were talking about Natalie's boyfriend and trying to 284 00:17:53,245 --> 00:17:56,925 Speaker 2: figure out his timeline. The boyfriend, Joey, by the way, 285 00:17:57,005 --> 00:17:59,565 Speaker 2: was completely cleared by police early in the investigation. 286 00:17:59,685 --> 00:18:00,885 Speaker 1: He was very cooperative. 287 00:18:01,285 --> 00:18:04,405 Speaker 2: Detectives on the case verified that he had been at 288 00:18:04,445 --> 00:18:09,445 Speaker 2: work the time when Natalie had been killed. In the background, 289 00:18:09,565 --> 00:18:13,525 Speaker 2: detectives were doing some old school thorough detective work. They 290 00:18:13,525 --> 00:18:16,605 Speaker 2: were looking through Natalie's phone all of her text messages, 291 00:18:17,645 --> 00:18:20,605 Speaker 2: and there was a delay between the time when police 292 00:18:20,605 --> 00:18:22,725 Speaker 2: got her phone and when they were able to access 293 00:18:22,845 --> 00:18:25,765 Speaker 2: her password and get to her text messages. This happens 294 00:18:25,805 --> 00:18:29,005 Speaker 2: a lot in cases because sometimes police have to get 295 00:18:29,005 --> 00:18:32,725 Speaker 2: a search warrant from the provider, so there was a delay, 296 00:18:32,765 --> 00:18:35,245 Speaker 2: but once they saw those text messages, they got a shock. 297 00:18:35,765 --> 00:18:39,125 Speaker 2: It became very clear there was a very obvious suspect 298 00:18:39,205 --> 00:18:41,245 Speaker 2: in this case, and it wasn't Sean, and it wasn't 299 00:18:41,285 --> 00:18:45,285 Speaker 2: anyone in Natalie's family or her boyfriend, or anyone who 300 00:18:45,325 --> 00:18:49,405 Speaker 2: the public expected, because the man who police suspected of 301 00:18:49,485 --> 00:18:53,525 Speaker 2: killing Natalie Bollinger was in fact a twenty three year 302 00:18:53,565 --> 00:18:58,685 Speaker 2: old Domino's pizza delivery guy named Joseph Lopez. Up until 303 00:18:58,725 --> 00:19:01,845 Speaker 2: a few days before her murder, he had been a 304 00:19:01,885 --> 00:19:14,645 Speaker 2: complete stranger to Natalie. Once police saw the text messages 305 00:19:14,685 --> 00:19:18,045 Speaker 2: between Natalie and Joseph Lopez, which I'll explain in a minute, 306 00:19:18,325 --> 00:19:21,285 Speaker 2: they went to the pizza place where he worked, and 307 00:19:21,325 --> 00:19:25,125 Speaker 2: according to the arrest affidavit, he was cooperative. He realized 308 00:19:25,205 --> 00:19:27,765 Speaker 2: he was caught and he immediately told police what happened. 309 00:19:28,285 --> 00:19:31,645 Speaker 2: And the story that Joseph Lopez told was wild. In fact, 310 00:19:31,645 --> 00:19:34,725 Speaker 2: it's one of the most unbelievable things I've actually ever heard. 311 00:19:35,165 --> 00:19:36,765 Speaker 2: If it was a movie, I'm not sure I would 312 00:19:36,765 --> 00:19:41,725 Speaker 2: find it believable. But like I always say, sadly, this 313 00:19:41,805 --> 00:19:44,205 Speaker 2: is real life, not a movie. 314 00:19:44,285 --> 00:19:45,805 Speaker 1: These are real people, and. 315 00:19:45,765 --> 00:19:49,485 Speaker 2: Again this is why when we cover these cases, I 316 00:19:49,565 --> 00:19:55,525 Speaker 2: take that responsibility very seriously. According to the arrest affidavit, 317 00:19:55,965 --> 00:20:00,245 Speaker 2: Joseph Lopez was randomly scrolling through Craigslist one night. He 318 00:20:00,325 --> 00:20:03,045 Speaker 2: was looking at the women seeking men's section. He saw 319 00:20:03,125 --> 00:20:06,885 Speaker 2: an ad with the headline to put a hit on myself, 320 00:20:07,605 --> 00:20:10,805 Speaker 2: meaning I want to hire a hit man to kill me. 321 00:20:11,405 --> 00:20:16,645 Speaker 2: And apparently this ad was placed by Natalie Ballinger. Now 322 00:20:16,645 --> 00:20:20,365 Speaker 2: this sounds crazy and unbelievable, but according to the arrest affidavit, 323 00:20:20,925 --> 00:20:24,485 Speaker 2: police went through the digital forensics very carefully. They went 324 00:20:24,485 --> 00:20:26,925 Speaker 2: through natalie cell phone. They went through Joseph's cell phone. 325 00:20:27,125 --> 00:20:29,805 Speaker 2: They figured out not only had he responded to this ad, 326 00:20:30,525 --> 00:20:34,565 Speaker 2: but that after he did, Joseph and Natalie swapped contact 327 00:20:34,565 --> 00:20:37,965 Speaker 2: details and they started texting. In the end, they texted 328 00:20:38,005 --> 00:20:41,205 Speaker 2: over one hundred times. They talked a lot in detail 329 00:20:41,365 --> 00:20:44,045 Speaker 2: about the fact that Natalie wanted to end her life 330 00:20:44,125 --> 00:20:45,605 Speaker 2: and she wanted help to do it. 331 00:20:46,285 --> 00:20:46,565 Speaker 1: Now. 332 00:20:46,845 --> 00:20:49,445 Speaker 2: During this time, Joseph Lopez, who's this kind of shy, 333 00:20:49,605 --> 00:20:53,125 Speaker 2: retiring pizza delivery boy, adopts this kind of fake hit 334 00:20:53,205 --> 00:20:56,285 Speaker 2: man persona. It's like he wanted to be this Jason 335 00:20:56,325 --> 00:20:59,125 Speaker 2: Bourne badass type character, which of course he was not, 336 00:20:59,765 --> 00:21:02,645 Speaker 2: and during the course of these conversations, he agreed to 337 00:21:02,765 --> 00:21:06,045 Speaker 2: kill Natalie Ballinger. He agreed to do it, says the 338 00:21:06,085 --> 00:21:10,165 Speaker 2: arrest affidavit, for an unspecified fee. Apparently there was talk 339 00:21:10,205 --> 00:21:14,445 Speaker 2: of money, but it's not clear how much money. So then, again, 340 00:21:14,485 --> 00:21:17,285 Speaker 2: according to this document, they came up with a plan 341 00:21:17,965 --> 00:21:20,925 Speaker 2: Joseph would pick Natalie up from her apartment on December 342 00:21:20,965 --> 00:21:24,085 Speaker 2: twenty eighth, and after her boyfriend left for work. That's 343 00:21:24,125 --> 00:21:27,845 Speaker 2: exactly what happened. Joseph drove over and picked Natalie up. 344 00:21:34,285 --> 00:21:36,805 Speaker 2: According to Joseph, they talked for a while and they 345 00:21:36,885 --> 00:21:40,645 Speaker 2: drove around. Natalie talked about the problems she'd been having 346 00:21:40,645 --> 00:21:43,485 Speaker 2: in her life, her relationship with her boyfriend, and some 347 00:21:43,525 --> 00:21:48,405 Speaker 2: other stuff, just her general depression. Then at some point 348 00:21:48,445 --> 00:21:50,885 Speaker 2: they started to drive toward the area where her body 349 00:21:50,925 --> 00:21:54,285 Speaker 2: was found. Natalie had brought her boyfriend's gun with her, 350 00:21:54,445 --> 00:21:58,005 Speaker 2: which she had said she would do. This is where 351 00:21:58,085 --> 00:22:01,925 Speaker 2: the story diverges a little bit. Because Joseph Lopez initially 352 00:22:01,925 --> 00:22:05,125 Speaker 2: told investigators that he didn't kill Natalie. He said, yes, 353 00:22:05,165 --> 00:22:07,165 Speaker 2: he did pick her up. They talked for a while 354 00:22:07,245 --> 00:22:10,285 Speaker 2: and then he said, of course, trying to paint himself 355 00:22:10,285 --> 00:22:13,285 Speaker 2: in the best possible light, which many suspects do. 356 00:22:13,965 --> 00:22:15,765 Speaker 1: He said he was trying to talk. 357 00:22:15,685 --> 00:22:18,485 Speaker 2: Natalie out of her killing herself. That's why he had 358 00:22:18,485 --> 00:22:20,645 Speaker 2: gone there, to try and help her and get her 359 00:22:20,685 --> 00:22:24,805 Speaker 2: to change her mind. In the end, he said, he 360 00:22:24,845 --> 00:22:27,605 Speaker 2: had just been altruistic, and then he drove her back 361 00:22:27,605 --> 00:22:31,165 Speaker 2: to her apartment and left her there. So if someone 362 00:22:31,245 --> 00:22:33,405 Speaker 2: did kill her, he said after that, she must have 363 00:22:33,485 --> 00:22:36,565 Speaker 2: found another person to respond to the ad or maybe done. 364 00:22:36,445 --> 00:22:36,925 Speaker 1: It on her own. 365 00:22:38,165 --> 00:22:41,245 Speaker 2: Joseph Lopez was arrested in February, and at around that 366 00:22:41,285 --> 00:22:44,685 Speaker 2: same time, I was looking for source documents, trying to 367 00:22:44,725 --> 00:22:49,765 Speaker 2: ignore the online chatter. I was actually on vacation. I 368 00:22:49,885 --> 00:22:53,485 Speaker 2: was skiing in Colorado. I was an Aspen and I 369 00:22:53,605 --> 00:22:56,725 Speaker 2: decided to take a drive to Adams County, ignore all 370 00:22:56,765 --> 00:23:00,685 Speaker 2: the online chatter, and request the arrest affidavit and a 371 00:23:00,725 --> 00:23:03,765 Speaker 2: copy of the autopsy in person. And that's exactly what 372 00:23:03,805 --> 00:23:06,885 Speaker 2: I did. Now because I was in one of the 373 00:23:06,885 --> 00:23:10,485 Speaker 2: Facebook groups. Because I'll join any group that I can, 374 00:23:10,605 --> 00:23:13,205 Speaker 2: I will do anything to find information that could close 375 00:23:13,205 --> 00:23:16,445 Speaker 2: the case. I communicated with some people there. I let 376 00:23:16,525 --> 00:23:18,685 Speaker 2: them know that i'd written a story for the Investigation 377 00:23:18,725 --> 00:23:21,565 Speaker 2: Discovery blog and that the autopsy report was part of 378 00:23:21,565 --> 00:23:25,165 Speaker 2: that story. It was really strange though, because a lot 379 00:23:25,205 --> 00:23:28,165 Speaker 2: of people said it was fake news. Later, a lot 380 00:23:28,245 --> 00:23:30,885 Speaker 2: of people were very supportive and thanked me for trying 381 00:23:30,925 --> 00:23:33,565 Speaker 2: to provide original documents in a case where there was 382 00:23:33,605 --> 00:23:37,085 Speaker 2: so much speculation. But I think it's really important in 383 00:23:37,085 --> 00:23:40,845 Speaker 2: cases like this to be able to find those documents, 384 00:23:41,205 --> 00:23:44,085 Speaker 2: things that came directly from the medical examiner's office or 385 00:23:44,125 --> 00:23:47,165 Speaker 2: from the police in the case file. Whenever possible, I 386 00:23:47,325 --> 00:23:53,565 Speaker 2: always try to find the original source documents. And what 387 00:23:53,605 --> 00:23:57,485 Speaker 2: that autopsy report showed was that Natalie was killed by 388 00:23:57,565 --> 00:24:01,125 Speaker 2: gunshot wound to the head. She also had a potentially 389 00:24:01,205 --> 00:24:03,285 Speaker 2: lethal amount of heroin in her system at the time 390 00:24:03,325 --> 00:24:08,005 Speaker 2: of her death. I talked to a forensic pathologist and 391 00:24:08,045 --> 00:24:11,525 Speaker 2: asked them to weigh in on that autopsy report. I 392 00:24:11,605 --> 00:24:14,005 Speaker 2: asked the question that a lot of people were asking, 393 00:24:14,045 --> 00:24:17,845 Speaker 2: which is would the drugs in her system have eventually 394 00:24:17,925 --> 00:24:18,445 Speaker 2: killed her? 395 00:24:19,005 --> 00:24:19,445 Speaker 1: And what the. 396 00:24:19,405 --> 00:24:23,045 Speaker 2: Pathologist said was that's actually irrelevant because even if Natalie 397 00:24:23,085 --> 00:24:25,285 Speaker 2: did have a toxic amount of drugs in her system, 398 00:24:25,765 --> 00:24:28,765 Speaker 2: even if she would have eventually died from an overdose. 399 00:24:29,205 --> 00:24:31,485 Speaker 2: That wasn't what killed her. What killed her was that 400 00:24:31,525 --> 00:24:37,325 Speaker 2: gunshot wound to the head. Joseph Lopez told police that 401 00:24:37,445 --> 00:24:41,845 Speaker 2: Natalie wanted to be killed on her knees, executed from behind, 402 00:24:42,805 --> 00:24:47,125 Speaker 2: but again he said he didn't do it. But police 403 00:24:47,165 --> 00:24:50,565 Speaker 2: knew that Joseph Lopez was lying because what he didn't 404 00:24:50,605 --> 00:24:53,925 Speaker 2: know was that police had his car GPS data and 405 00:24:53,965 --> 00:24:57,845 Speaker 2: that data showed that Joseph Lopez, or at least his car, 406 00:24:58,245 --> 00:25:00,685 Speaker 2: had driven to the area near that dairy farm where 407 00:25:00,725 --> 00:25:05,165 Speaker 2: Natalie's body was found. So then he changed his story 408 00:25:05,485 --> 00:25:07,965 Speaker 2: that he did go out there with her, but he 409 00:25:08,085 --> 00:25:10,045 Speaker 2: said Natalie shot herself in the head. 410 00:25:10,725 --> 00:25:12,965 Speaker 1: Again, police knew that this wasn't. 411 00:25:12,765 --> 00:25:17,725 Speaker 2: True because there was that autopsy report. The forensic showed 412 00:25:17,845 --> 00:25:21,085 Speaker 2: that a nine millimeters shell casing was found several feet 413 00:25:21,085 --> 00:25:25,565 Speaker 2: away from Natalie. Natalie had been shot once from point 414 00:25:25,565 --> 00:25:28,685 Speaker 2: blank range, but the killer had been a few feet 415 00:25:28,685 --> 00:25:31,565 Speaker 2: away from her. In addition to that, the angle of 416 00:25:31,605 --> 00:25:35,005 Speaker 2: the bullet was all wrong. The angle, according to the 417 00:25:35,005 --> 00:25:40,125 Speaker 2: autopsy report, was left to right, front to back and downward. Now, 418 00:25:40,285 --> 00:25:42,805 Speaker 2: Natalie was on her knees at the time she was shot, 419 00:25:43,285 --> 00:25:46,165 Speaker 2: she could not have shot herself in the head using 420 00:25:46,205 --> 00:25:50,605 Speaker 2: a downward trajectory from several feet away. The story Joseph 421 00:25:50,645 --> 00:25:58,805 Speaker 2: Lopez was spinning was literally impossible. Finally, Joseph Lopez knew 422 00:25:58,925 --> 00:26:02,245 Speaker 2: that he was caught. He told police, yes, he did 423 00:26:02,285 --> 00:26:06,005 Speaker 2: shoot her, but he said Natalie begged him to shoot her. 424 00:26:06,045 --> 00:26:07,605 Speaker 1: He said they prayed together. 425 00:26:07,845 --> 00:26:11,245 Speaker 2: And that after that she quote knelt down on the 426 00:26:11,285 --> 00:26:14,205 Speaker 2: ground and that he knelt down along her left side 427 00:26:14,245 --> 00:26:17,685 Speaker 2: and slightly in front of her end quote. Then he 428 00:26:17,725 --> 00:26:21,365 Speaker 2: said he shot her. Then he fled the scene, but 429 00:26:21,405 --> 00:26:26,325 Speaker 2: not before stealing her purse and the gun. Police really 430 00:26:26,365 --> 00:26:30,085 Speaker 2: didn't believe anything, Joseph Lopez said, because number one, they 431 00:26:30,165 --> 00:26:32,325 Speaker 2: knew he was a liar, and number two, they had 432 00:26:32,365 --> 00:26:34,765 Speaker 2: started doing a deep dive into his past and what 433 00:26:34,805 --> 00:26:39,685 Speaker 2: they found was seriously disturbing. Joseph Lopez told police that 434 00:26:39,725 --> 00:26:42,525 Speaker 2: he kept a journal in high school, a journal where 435 00:26:42,525 --> 00:26:46,685 Speaker 2: he wrote stories about kidnapping people, torturing them, and executing them. 436 00:26:46,965 --> 00:26:51,685 Speaker 2: According to the Denver Post, now, there's nothing illegal or 437 00:26:51,725 --> 00:26:55,325 Speaker 2: necessarily even alarming about writing horror stories, but he told 438 00:26:55,405 --> 00:26:58,605 Speaker 2: investigators he had had fantasies about doing these things to 439 00:26:58,765 --> 00:27:03,965 Speaker 2: people for real for a long time. So at this 440 00:27:04,125 --> 00:27:06,605 Speaker 2: point people were asking a lot of questions that I 441 00:27:06,645 --> 00:27:10,525 Speaker 2: think are very interesting, Like we talk a lot about 442 00:27:10,565 --> 00:27:12,805 Speaker 2: the right to die, but we're talking about people who 443 00:27:12,805 --> 00:27:15,765 Speaker 2: are older or in pain. What about when it's a 444 00:27:15,805 --> 00:27:18,685 Speaker 2: mental health issue? What about when it's a young person. 445 00:27:20,405 --> 00:27:22,525 Speaker 2: There's a lot about this case that we still don't know, 446 00:27:22,565 --> 00:27:24,845 Speaker 2: because of course we'll never get the full truth from 447 00:27:24,965 --> 00:27:28,805 Speaker 2: Joseph Lopez, Like did Natalie take the drugs herself? Or 448 00:27:28,845 --> 00:27:32,525 Speaker 2: could Joseph Lopez have injected her with those drugs. 449 00:27:32,205 --> 00:27:33,565 Speaker 1: To calm her down? 450 00:27:33,925 --> 00:27:37,445 Speaker 2: And really, even if Natalie Ballinger did want to die, 451 00:27:37,765 --> 00:27:40,885 Speaker 2: the fact is this was still murder. Joseph Lopez was 452 00:27:40,925 --> 00:27:44,045 Speaker 2: a predator. He saw a vulnerable person, someone who was 453 00:27:44,085 --> 00:27:47,045 Speaker 2: talking about wanting to end her own life, and instead 454 00:27:47,045 --> 00:27:49,685 Speaker 2: of helping her or steering her towards some kinds of 455 00:27:49,725 --> 00:27:52,685 Speaker 2: counseling or taking her to drop her off with a 456 00:27:52,765 --> 00:27:56,365 Speaker 2: friend or family member at the hospital, he chose to 457 00:27:56,445 --> 00:28:00,525 Speaker 2: live out a sick fantasy, and he chose to make 458 00:28:00,565 --> 00:28:06,125 Speaker 2: her his victim. Joseph Lopez was charged with first murder, 459 00:28:06,805 --> 00:28:09,765 Speaker 2: and it later came out that Facebook had even played 460 00:28:09,805 --> 00:28:11,245 Speaker 2: a role in helping catch him. 461 00:28:11,725 --> 00:28:13,525 Speaker 1: The police were using old. 462 00:28:13,325 --> 00:28:17,005 Speaker 2: School detective tactics, but they were also using social media wisely, 463 00:28:17,485 --> 00:28:20,285 Speaker 2: it's actually good to see. It's good to see the 464 00:28:20,325 --> 00:28:23,565 Speaker 2: Adams County Sheriff's Department doing a really good and thorough 465 00:28:23,645 --> 00:28:26,165 Speaker 2: job of investigating and of using every tool they. 466 00:28:26,085 --> 00:28:27,045 Speaker 1: Had at their disposal. 467 00:28:28,285 --> 00:28:31,365 Speaker 2: The sheriff said they had found Joseph by searching the 468 00:28:31,445 --> 00:28:35,605 Speaker 2: phone number from Natalie's text messages on Facebook. The search 469 00:28:35,645 --> 00:28:38,405 Speaker 2: showed his mom's Facebook page and that's how they first 470 00:28:38,405 --> 00:28:42,285 Speaker 2: found him. But then after Joseph Lopez had been charged, 471 00:28:42,765 --> 00:28:46,325 Speaker 2: there was more drama because right before the trial was 472 00:28:46,405 --> 00:28:49,925 Speaker 2: due to start, Joseph Lopez was offered a plea deal. 473 00:28:50,685 --> 00:28:54,045 Speaker 2: He ended up pleading guilty to second degree murder. The 474 00:28:54,205 --> 00:28:56,805 Speaker 2: judge sentenced him to a maximum of forty eight years 475 00:28:56,805 --> 00:29:00,405 Speaker 2: in prison. That means that he will be in prison 476 00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:04,125 Speaker 2: until he's at least seventy years old, but technically it 477 00:29:04,165 --> 00:29:07,125 Speaker 2: does mean he will be eligible for parole at some 478 00:29:07,325 --> 00:29:12,245 Speaker 2: point during his life. Ted Ballinger, Natalie's father, told the 479 00:29:12,245 --> 00:29:16,045 Speaker 2: local news channel Denver seven, he was very upset about 480 00:29:16,045 --> 00:29:20,565 Speaker 2: the DA's decision to offer Joseph that deal. Ted said, quote, 481 00:29:20,565 --> 00:29:23,445 Speaker 2: there's no justice in this and for Adams County to 482 00:29:23,445 --> 00:29:25,725 Speaker 2: have enough evidence to convict him and then make him 483 00:29:25,725 --> 00:29:28,925 Speaker 2: an offer is a spit in my family's face. She 484 00:29:29,045 --> 00:29:30,445 Speaker 2: was vulnerable and drugged. 485 00:29:31,165 --> 00:29:31,645 Speaker 1: End quote. 486 00:29:32,605 --> 00:29:37,565 Speaker 2: Then he addressed Joseph Lopez and he said, quote, you premeditated, 487 00:29:37,645 --> 00:29:41,085 Speaker 2: brutally shot and killed my baby. I asked for an 488 00:29:41,125 --> 00:29:44,605 Speaker 2: eye for an eye. You've been protected. The Ballinger family 489 00:29:44,685 --> 00:29:47,485 Speaker 2: had no say in this. This is a deal with 490 00:29:47,565 --> 00:29:53,245 Speaker 2: the devil end quote. At the time, a lot of 491 00:29:53,285 --> 00:29:56,405 Speaker 2: people were talking about whether taking the plea deal was 492 00:29:56,445 --> 00:30:00,525 Speaker 2: the right move. I'm not a lawyer, so of course 493 00:30:00,565 --> 00:30:04,165 Speaker 2: this is only an opinion. But I can really see 494 00:30:04,205 --> 00:30:06,885 Speaker 2: both sides of that argument, because on the one hand, yes, 495 00:30:06,965 --> 00:30:10,445 Speaker 2: they did have a tremendous amount of evidence, this was 496 00:30:10,565 --> 00:30:14,805 Speaker 2: a premeditated murder, and they had a confession. But on 497 00:30:14,925 --> 00:30:19,205 Speaker 2: the flip side, there were some complications. For example, the 498 00:30:19,325 --> 00:30:23,565 Speaker 2: defense was trying to have some of Natalie's text messages 499 00:30:23,645 --> 00:30:28,365 Speaker 2: excluded and without going super in depth into their arguments. 500 00:30:28,405 --> 00:30:33,605 Speaker 2: If that had happened, I think that could have been catastrophic. Also, 501 00:30:34,005 --> 00:30:36,885 Speaker 2: it's always a throw of the dice when you're dealing 502 00:30:36,885 --> 00:30:40,605 Speaker 2: with a jury and human emotions, and this is such 503 00:30:40,645 --> 00:30:44,485 Speaker 2: a strange story. I would worry that even if technically 504 00:30:44,565 --> 00:30:47,605 Speaker 2: Joseph Lopez was totally guilty, that maybe there'd be one 505 00:30:47,725 --> 00:30:51,325 Speaker 2: juror who might think she wanted to end her life 506 00:30:51,365 --> 00:30:54,205 Speaker 2: and therefore they might want to let him off more lightly. 507 00:30:54,285 --> 00:30:56,245 Speaker 2: So I do think that there was some risk there, 508 00:30:56,885 --> 00:31:00,005 Speaker 2: and in the end, even though he will be eligible 509 00:31:00,045 --> 00:31:02,925 Speaker 2: for parole, he will be an old man by the 510 00:31:02,925 --> 00:31:06,565 Speaker 2: time that happens. But I can also totally respect and 511 00:31:06,605 --> 00:31:09,805 Speaker 2: appreciate the feelings of some of Natalie's family members who 512 00:31:09,805 --> 00:31:13,885 Speaker 2: feel like they were betrayed. Eventually, Natalie's family tried to 513 00:31:13,925 --> 00:31:19,085 Speaker 2: move on, so did Sean Schwartz. By the way, again, 514 00:31:19,245 --> 00:31:22,365 Speaker 2: he was never charged with anything to do with Natalie's 515 00:31:22,365 --> 00:31:26,725 Speaker 2: disappearance or death. He was completely cleared, but he continued 516 00:31:26,765 --> 00:31:29,565 Speaker 2: to experience fallout from a lot of this social media stuff. 517 00:31:30,125 --> 00:31:33,205 Speaker 2: Now some of it one could argue he fed into 518 00:31:33,285 --> 00:31:36,125 Speaker 2: himself because he was also posting, but the whole thing 519 00:31:36,325 --> 00:31:40,405 Speaker 2: just seemed to get more and more toxic. Eventually he 520 00:31:40,485 --> 00:31:45,325 Speaker 2: started feuding with Natalie's twin sister, Alisha. Eventually, Alisha took 521 00:31:45,365 --> 00:31:49,045 Speaker 2: out her own restraining order against Sean, and then in 522 00:31:49,085 --> 00:31:55,605 Speaker 2: October of twenty nineteen, Alicia disappeared. The Kansas Highway Patrol 523 00:31:55,725 --> 00:31:59,085 Speaker 2: confirmed that there was a vehicle that was involved in 524 00:31:59,125 --> 00:32:02,485 Speaker 2: a police pursuit. Alicia was a passenger in that vehicle. 525 00:32:04,445 --> 00:32:07,485 Speaker 2: After police stopped the car, they took Alisha to a 526 00:32:07,525 --> 00:32:13,045 Speaker 2: hotel where they dropped her off, and after that she vanished. Fortunately, 527 00:32:13,085 --> 00:32:15,645 Speaker 2: Alicia was found a few days later. She was safe 528 00:32:15,685 --> 00:32:22,085 Speaker 2: and well. After the drama between Sean and Alicia, some 529 00:32:22,245 --> 00:32:25,125 Speaker 2: other members of Natalie's family were saying they didn't feel 530 00:32:25,125 --> 00:32:28,885 Speaker 2: safe either. They feel like Natalie's fear of Sean was 531 00:32:28,965 --> 00:32:31,205 Speaker 2: part of the stresses that she was experiencing during the 532 00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:36,805 Speaker 2: last days of her life. I can certainly appreciate their perspective. 533 00:32:36,925 --> 00:32:39,445 Speaker 2: For me, this whole case has exposed the fact that 534 00:32:39,485 --> 00:32:43,005 Speaker 2: you have vulnerable people. These are not public people, and 535 00:32:43,045 --> 00:32:45,685 Speaker 2: when they feel like they're being stalked or targeted online, 536 00:32:46,045 --> 00:32:50,085 Speaker 2: or their families are being stalked at times, online sleuthing 537 00:32:50,285 --> 00:32:53,925 Speaker 2: can be really dangerous. I think about this every single 538 00:32:54,005 --> 00:32:57,045 Speaker 2: day in my job, because there's no doubt that Facebook 539 00:32:57,165 --> 00:33:00,765 Speaker 2: and other social media can be very powerful tools. They 540 00:33:00,805 --> 00:33:03,885 Speaker 2: can give us information about what was inside of victim's 541 00:33:03,965 --> 00:33:07,005 Speaker 2: mind before they disappeared or murdered. They can put you 542 00:33:07,045 --> 00:33:09,445 Speaker 2: in touch with people they can make people feel comfortable 543 00:33:09,485 --> 00:33:12,325 Speaker 2: about reaching out to me and others. But I think 544 00:33:12,325 --> 00:33:14,965 Speaker 2: we have to be very careful with social media. We 545 00:33:14,965 --> 00:33:18,885 Speaker 2: should be polite and courteous, back everything up with solid facts, 546 00:33:18,925 --> 00:33:21,485 Speaker 2: and not succumb to what I call this kind of 547 00:33:21,565 --> 00:33:23,205 Speaker 2: mob mentality. 548 00:33:26,845 --> 00:33:27,925 Speaker 1: Whenever I find. 549 00:33:27,645 --> 00:33:30,525 Speaker 2: Myself spending too long on social media, I start to 550 00:33:30,565 --> 00:33:33,605 Speaker 2: remember I'm a reporter. I have two degrees in journalism, 551 00:33:33,685 --> 00:33:35,485 Speaker 2: I have a PI license, and I'm going back to 552 00:33:35,525 --> 00:33:38,125 Speaker 2: the basics. I go out in the field, get some 553 00:33:38,205 --> 00:33:41,205 Speaker 2: fresh air, try to get some interviews, or if I 554 00:33:41,285 --> 00:33:45,645 Speaker 2: need another perspective, I will find an expert with credentials 555 00:33:45,685 --> 00:33:48,445 Speaker 2: to comment on a case, not just ask random people 556 00:33:48,485 --> 00:33:52,205 Speaker 2: on Facebook. I think about the Natalie Bollinger case for 557 00:33:52,245 --> 00:33:55,605 Speaker 2: another reason, As someone who suffered from depression. I think 558 00:33:55,645 --> 00:33:58,805 Speaker 2: about some of the darkest times in my own life. Luckily, 559 00:33:58,845 --> 00:34:02,045 Speaker 2: for me, I've had wonderful friends and family who have 560 00:34:02,125 --> 00:34:05,365 Speaker 2: been there for me at my darkest times. But even 561 00:34:05,605 --> 00:34:10,685 Speaker 2: with that, depression can be fatal. Sometimes in the depths 562 00:34:10,685 --> 00:34:14,965 Speaker 2: of depression, people do feel more comfortable talking. 563 00:34:14,645 --> 00:34:15,565 Speaker 1: To a stranger. 564 00:34:16,405 --> 00:34:19,245 Speaker 2: I just wish that the stranger that Natalie had reached 565 00:34:19,285 --> 00:34:21,925 Speaker 2: out to was someone who cared about her, not a 566 00:34:21,965 --> 00:34:25,005 Speaker 2: psychopath who just wanted to use her to enact his 567 00:34:25,045 --> 00:34:28,925 Speaker 2: own fantasies. And not to be corny or anything, but 568 00:34:28,965 --> 00:34:31,925 Speaker 2: I put this episode out this week before the holidays 569 00:34:32,325 --> 00:34:34,965 Speaker 2: because I just wanted to remind everyone, even though we 570 00:34:35,045 --> 00:34:37,925 Speaker 2: are talking about crime, so many of these stories are 571 00:34:37,965 --> 00:34:40,725 Speaker 2: horrific and they involve people doing very bad things to 572 00:34:40,765 --> 00:34:44,325 Speaker 2: each other. I truly believe that the best way to 573 00:34:44,405 --> 00:34:47,405 Speaker 2: try to find answers and justice is about all of 574 00:34:47,485 --> 00:34:51,045 Speaker 2: us coming together, helping each other, being curious, and always 575 00:34:51,045 --> 00:34:54,205 Speaker 2: being polite and kind, because in the end, that's how 576 00:34:54,205 --> 00:34:55,325 Speaker 2: we're going to find these answers. 577 00:34:55,365 --> 00:34:56,285 Speaker 1: I really believe that. 578 00:34:56,765 --> 00:34:58,645 Speaker 2: So I just want to say to everybody out there 579 00:34:58,685 --> 00:35:02,645 Speaker 2: this holiday season and beyond, please be careful, be kind, 580 00:35:02,885 --> 00:35:05,485 Speaker 2: and take care of each other. I'll talk to you 581 00:35:05,565 --> 00:35:09,805 Speaker 2: all after the holidays. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen 582 00:35:09,845 --> 00:35:14,805 Speaker 2: Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production 583 00:35:14,845 --> 00:35:17,725 Speaker 2: of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and 584 00:35:17,805 --> 00:35:20,885 Speaker 2: narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. 585 00:35:21,485 --> 00:35:22,925 Speaker 1: Music is by Ben Sale. 586 00:35:23,765 --> 00:35:27,685 Speaker 2: Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Else Crowley. 587 00:35:28,165 --> 00:35:29,805 Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd like me and my 588 00:35:29,885 --> 00:35:32,165 Speaker 2: team to look into, you can reach out to us 589 00:35:32,205 --> 00:35:34,605 Speaker 2: at our Helen Gone Murder Line. It's six seven eight 590 00:35:34,885 --> 00:35:38,445 Speaker 2: seven four four six one four five. That's six seven 591 00:35:38,485 --> 00:35:41,205 Speaker 2: eight seven four four six ' one four five. 592 00:35:48,965 --> 00:35:50,165 Speaker 1: School of Humans