1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: This is Me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless severely 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: vote bitten in my case underwear listening podcast. You can't 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: predict anything, all right, John Arrack, I'm gonna start by 4 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: kind of um, I'm gonna make you uncomfortable and butter 5 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: you up. Uh you. I wanted to talk to you 6 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: for for twenty years I think or what year to 7 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: trout Bump come out, um, mid eighties, maybe six. I 8 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: didn't discover it until a little bit later than that. 9 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: But I've wanted to talk to you since I did. 10 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: Because there's a thing like like that book, which was 11 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: your first book, right, No, because you had you had 12 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: the fly Fish in the High Countries before that. But 13 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: troump Bomb fell into When I say our lap, I 14 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: mean the lapse of me, my brothers and like our 15 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: main hunting and fishing friends that we grew up with, 16 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: and it fell into our lap at this time in life. 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: That will always stick in my head because it was 18 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: we're kind of coming out of coming out of college, 19 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: being mid college, and there was just this uh tremendous 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: amount of anxiety that was unspoken at the time, but 21 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: there was sort of like a lot of there's just 22 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: like like this palpable anxiety in the air about what 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: we were all gonna what was gonna happen to us? All, yeah, 24 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: like not like now right, No, I I just feel 25 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: like I know better. I kind of like now I 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: have anxiety about my kids. Right. But at the time, 27 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: I just, yeah, I know, I kind of could picture 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: it all. Now by the time I couldn't picture it. 29 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: There was like a tremendous amount of anxiety. But there's 30 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: a thing that we were just discovering, is that that 31 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: we'd all grown up fishing all the time because our 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: dad's fish. We just fished. But all of a sudden, 33 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: I was like, it seemed like there's so much possibility 34 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: out in the world, and we were starting to to 35 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: to screw around with traveling to go places and and 36 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: just do nothing, and almost making a conscious decision to 37 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: not have a lot of the material goods that you 38 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: saw other people going towards at that age, because we 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: were just really in love with just messing around with 40 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: our friends and camping and pulling your money together to 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: buy gas to go fish somewhere and doing these things 42 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: that didn't make sense. And you're doing all this stuff 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense and you felt like anxiety about 44 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: it and some level of guilt about it because it 45 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: didn't seem sustainable and seem foolish and childish. But we 46 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: were so in love with how we were living. And 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: then I read when your book came out, man, and 48 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: I remember this so clearly, all these years later and 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: all the things I've read since then, but it was 50 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: like it made me feel like, oh my god, this 51 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: is okay. Like this is a thing that people do 52 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: and it happens to people, and there's like a way 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: you can live your life like this. Yeah, I was 54 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: gonna say, I recognize everything you said, except the guilt part. 55 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: I never felt an ounce of guilt. You never had 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: the guilt. You feel like. You grew up in a 57 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: working class family though, Yeah, that didn't Robot. I mean 58 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: not that you don't work. I mean you didn't have 59 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: that sense of like that you needed to be do 60 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: you needed to be doing something you didn't like. Well, 61 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: I had the sense I needed to make a living, 62 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: and I always did. I mean I worked all kinds 63 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: of jobs. Um, even while I was writing, I worked 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: a lot of odd jobs and part time jobs and 65 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: full time jobs sometimes and just to get by because 66 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: you were brought up in Ohio, right well, born in uh, Illinois, 67 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: small town Illinois. Moved to Minnesota for a while, moved 68 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: to Ohio. Dad worked for serious so we moved around. Uh. 69 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: I was in Ohio for my last two years of 70 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: high school, and then I went to college in Ohio, 71 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: and then after that I was just I was in 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: New York, I was in Colorado, I was in hate Ashbury, 73 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: I was And you studied philosophy. Yeah, we like explain that. 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: I don't even explain philosophy. What why? I mean, what 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: kind of led you to that? Um? Well, I started 76 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: out was an English major, and always hard for me 77 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: to say that without thinking to Garrison Keeler now, But um, 78 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't like the way they taught 79 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: There's an arrogant thing to say, but I don't like 80 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: the way they taught English literature. It was just, you know, 81 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: it was like it was code and you were supposed 82 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: to decode in and it was like they kept asking 83 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: what does the author mean? And I kept asking why 84 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: can't he just mean what he said? I remember that 85 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: being I remember that being difficult too, and in the 86 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: way they kind of march you through the timeline being 87 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: frustrating as well. All right, we'll start with bail Wolf, yeah, 88 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: and this year we'll make it to Shakespeare and then 89 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: we'll pick up and yeah, yeah, talking about hitting meanings 90 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: and like you'd read something and dig it, but then 91 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: you felt like, well, I must not have really liked it, 92 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: because when they asked me that for what it meant, 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: I can't tell you what the symbolism was. I liked it. 94 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: If that counts for anything. Yeah, well, you know I could. 95 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: I can sort of do it now, but I've read 96 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: probably thousands of books since then. I mean, I think 97 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: you don't. I think you don't do enough reading. By 98 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: the time you're studying English in college. I think you 99 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: haven't done enough reading yet. Oh you mean like it's premature. 100 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean you're you're just you're just being 101 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: introduced to literature and you're being asked to look at 102 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: it as deeply as anyone ever looks at it. And 103 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: I think maybe you should. Maybe you should read for 104 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: twenty years and then study English. I don't know. I mean, 105 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: there's only so much time. But yeah, I remember meet 106 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: a guy I was fishing with, a late friend of 107 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: mine on the big hole river. I'm sure you fished 108 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: that river in Montana. We're on the Big Hole River. 109 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: And we met a guy who had was explained as 110 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: that he had been a doctor and had just recently retired, 111 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: and the two things he was never able to do 112 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: as a doctor was read and fish, And so now 113 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: he was devoting his retirement to fishing in the morning, 114 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: and then while he was still fresh of mind to 115 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: go and read, and he had in his head that 116 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: he was going to read even at the word he 117 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: was he was going to read the Cannon. Yeah, struck 118 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: me as like you'll probably get more out of it 119 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: than I did when I read the Canon starting at 120 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: eighteen years of age, exactly, exactly. Yeah, So you bumped 121 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: the philosophy. Yeah, And was there like a thing you 122 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: thought you were gonna go do with it? Like did 123 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: you want to be a philosophy teacher? No? I mean 124 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: I realized at some point that that was what you did, right, No, 125 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. I mean, if if if you 126 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: were to get a degree in philosophy, that's the only 127 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: outlet you're not gonna go. You're not gonna go home 128 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: and hang out your shingle. You know, you're gonna be 129 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: a teacher, that's it. Or you're gonna go to law 130 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: school because law schools like philosophy majors because they could 131 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: read complicated stuff and you figure out what it. Man. 132 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: But I don't know, I was just never I wasn't 133 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: on that track. It was man, birds banded against the window, yeah, 134 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: dead know. No, I saw him going, He's all right, 135 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: tis the five with him? Those were those were doves. 136 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: We could have eaten them. So sorry. I just wasn't 137 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: on a career track. It was his sixties and we 138 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: were hippies and we weren't looking to go to the 139 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: office every day. But you like to fish at that 140 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: point too, because you grew up fishing. I did, but 141 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: I didn't do much, um the last two years of 142 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: high school and we lived in northern you know, Rush belt, 143 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: northern Ohio. And then in college, I mean, it just 144 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: wasn't fishing around. Yeah, let's just fishing bullheads and stuff 145 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah. And when I lived in northern Ohio, Um, 146 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: that's when the Cuyahoga River caught fire every couple of 147 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: years and Lake Erie would eat the paint off a 148 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: ship's coming in. And nobody wants to fish in that 149 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: she just didn't feel a strong connection to it there 150 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: all the time, I feel any connection to it at all. 151 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: When because if you're if your self described like that 152 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: you were that you were hippi or affiliated with the counterculture, 153 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: and we're familiar with fishing. Did you at the time 154 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: were you reading uh like Trout Fishing in America by 155 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: broad Again? I remember what year that came out, but 156 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: that came out later. I did read it. What were 157 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: your thoughts of that? And you know the Curtis Creek 158 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: Manifesto and all that stuff. Um my thoughts, Well, you 159 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: know I always like brought Again. Um he might be 160 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: a little thin in retrospect, but I liked him at 161 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: the time. Yeah. Broad Again's like, um, like Tom Robbins 162 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: if you read Time, but but later you can't go retime, 163 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: Like once you get in your forties and you have 164 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: kids and stuff, you can't go like it doesn't hold upright, 165 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: not like holy Ship, this guy's a genius. Yeah, it's 166 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: kind of you kind of like, how did I used 167 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: to think this was good? But broad Again is still 168 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 1: funny though, Man, he is still funny. Yeah, didn't not 169 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: have a funny end um So when so if you. 170 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: Here's I guess what kind of driving at this I 171 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: maybe I should just ask you, at what point did 172 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: you At what point did you like make these connections? 173 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: Like there is such a thing as a guy. There's 174 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: such thing as a guy who writes about an activity 175 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: like fishing, and if he is really good, can make 176 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: it living at it. And I will shoot for that. Um. 177 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: I was probably probably in the mid seventies, um, because 178 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, I got into fly fishing. I didn't get 179 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: out of it. I didn't get into fly fishing until 180 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: I came out West in my early twenties, late sixties, 181 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: early seventies. I've never really seen it before. It's that 182 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: in the Midwest you never saw people fly fishing. You 183 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: do now, but you didn't then. And I just got 184 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: into it for what I think were the purest reasons. 185 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: I thought, that's beautiful. That's the prettiest thing I've ever seen, 186 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: and I mean just the act of it. Yeah, yeah, 187 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: and people are catching fish and I thought that was 188 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: just freaking beautiful. And was what was the year that 189 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: you had that sort of thought or oh, eight sixties, okay, 190 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: maybe seventy maybe, um. And at some point and I 191 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: was still trying to be a serious writer. Dan. I 192 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: had a little book of poetry and print. I was 193 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: writing for a little literary magazines, and but I was 194 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: fly fishing and I was reading fly Fisherman magazine. I 195 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: don't think fly fishing the West was out, um, I 196 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: think trout, salmon and steelheader was out. Then there weren't 197 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: many and I just sort of of course. There were 198 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: the you know, field and stream out theor life guys 199 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: like Lee Wolf around, and I just thought, well, people 200 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: do make a living at this. Did you feel like 201 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: it was coarse and low because you want, because you 202 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: were an aspiring poet. Did you feel like it was 203 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: less artful to become like a a like a a 204 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: writer with sort of a beat? You know? Not really? 205 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: Not really? I mean there were people I knew at 206 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: the time who thought it was I mean I had 207 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: writer friends at the time who thought it wasn't it 208 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: wasn't like the fine arts. Yeah, yeah, And maybe it's 209 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: not to like the fine arts. I don't know. Well 210 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: for most it's not. But I think that the reason, 211 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: the reason that you're you, and the reason that you've 212 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: been around so long and people like you so much, 213 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: is that you're one of the one of the rare 214 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: few who has transcended. Well, what it was was reading 215 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: Tom mcgwain, Jim Harrison, Russ Chatham, some of those guys. 216 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: And also you know, the new journalists were working in UM, 217 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: Tom Wolf, Hunter, Thompson, Um, Peter Matheson, and they were 218 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: they were sort of bringing literary techniques into what had 219 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: normally been journalism up to now. They were becoming dropping 220 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: the pretense of objectivity and becoming characters in their own 221 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: stories and UM and writing in a stream of consciousness. 222 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Electric Kuwaite acid test was not 223 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: a news story about LSD. It was you know, a 224 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: little deeper than that, and UM. But I think it 225 00:13:55,760 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: was probably the single writer that showed me that this 226 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: could be done as well as any other kind of writing, 227 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: It could be just as as legitimates literature was Tom 228 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: mcgwain and some of his earlier stuff. So you were 229 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: reading his stuff then, yeah, like in Shade and some 230 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: of them. I don't know if I was going to 231 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: the earlier works. Yeah, but also his you know, he 232 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: wrote for uh sports a Field or I don't know, 233 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: he wrote for some of the magazines and Harrison back 234 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: then like in the seventies, Harrison was doing hunting and 235 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: fishing pieces for Sports Illustrated. Yeah, it's amazing. And that era, 236 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: even though participation was not super high in this country, 237 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: and that era the room that mainstream publications made for 238 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: like cooking bullet right hook and bullet writing of the finest, 239 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: highest caliber would find its way into very mainstream magazines. 240 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: But that's all stuff that I've always been like like 241 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: a thing that if if I look at sort of 242 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: the stuff I've written and where it's been, I'm always 243 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: kind of like proud of those moments when I've been 244 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: able to take a wedge A thing about hunting and 245 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: fishing in an unexpected location always feel like it's like, 246 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: uh like counting coup almost, you know, to be able 247 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: to stick it in somewhere or no one ever expect 248 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: to see it. Just like being a sniper, like yeah, 249 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: but you're shooting shooting stories instead of bullets. You know what, 250 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: do you know? This is like a side out of 251 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: any kind of chronology we're following with you, but you 252 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: might have some perspective on it. One of the things 253 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: that troubles me most about fishing writing is that why 254 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: would why does spin tackle? Why why does spin tackle 255 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: not spawn great writers? That's a mixed metaphor. Why does 256 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: spin tackle spin fishing not produce the writers that fly 257 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: fishing does. I kind of get it, but I don't 258 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: get it. Um. I don't know. That's a good question 259 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: I've never given in a moment's thought. But it could 260 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: be just that writers tend to be attracted to fly 261 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: fishing because it's you know, it's old, and it's kind 262 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: of primitive, and it's complex, and the esthetics are complicated, 263 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, there's a lot to write about. And so 264 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: you think it said like the writerly sensibility is drawn 265 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: to fly fishing rather than like fly fishing inspires writers. Yeah. Maybe, 266 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: Like I say, I've never I've never thought of it before, 267 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: But you're right. Name name a great spin fishing writer 268 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: like Gray wrote some pretty good pieces about now I 269 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: it was mostly because, yeah, having he wrote about deep 270 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: water well any and he wrote about fishing trout with 271 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: worms too, um and Hopper's big two hardered river fishing 272 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: live bait. So I mean, it's it's out there. But 273 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody would consider him away a fishing writer. Well, 274 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: I mean he's definitely like informed by that, and I 275 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: think that he's like recognized as being I mean he's 276 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: as much of like he's recognized as much of a 277 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: dude who liked to watch bullfights as he is the 278 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: guy like the hunt fish. We definitely had that with 279 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: the Zane gray fly fish. I don't know, I've only 280 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: did like I think it was fishing Virgin Sees is 281 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: the book I have at home, And yeah, well he 282 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: did some steelheading too, But he not only was just 283 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: a writing about it, he was like an innovator of 284 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: tackle and equipment. I mean he goes into great depth 285 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: describing like making custom line back when he they didn't 286 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: have line they could hold up to an eight pound marlin. 287 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: And then the great depths that he went to to 288 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: have this line, or the products shipped from you know, 289 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 1: who knows where, and then it was you know, spun 290 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: somewhere else, and then you do all these tests and 291 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: still the big ones would get away. But he was hardcore. 292 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: He was just he wasn't just a trigger man, know, 293 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: he was into it. What was the first do you recollect? 294 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: What year was the first year that you wrote a 295 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: fishing piece where you looked at and thought like, that's 296 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: not technical writing, it's not how to it's like a 297 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: piece of art about fishing. And then that you published, 298 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: Um well, I think I felt that about uh the 299 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: SSA Asian trout bum so and they were not you know, 300 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: it came out and s where it was eighty six. 301 00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: So probably by the late seventies I was starting to 302 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: do that, like the writing things. You're like, this is 303 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: what I want to do, and I just did that. 304 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, And you were placing them where I 305 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: was placing them in in fishing magazines. I was in 306 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: Sports of Field, Field and Stream Fly Fisherman um now 307 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: defunct magazine called fly Fishing the West. Um, I don't 308 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: think fly ron um fly Rod and Reel was still 309 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: Rod and Reel. Then John Merwin had it recognize that 310 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: name published in there and here and there, and those 311 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: could not have been uh those couldn't have been huge 312 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: paychecks in those places. So you kind of knew that 313 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: you probably you probably knew that you had to go 314 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: toward books. Um well, I wanted to go towards the books. 315 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: I think all writers want to see their name on 316 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: the cover of a book, right, don't you. I mean 317 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: magazines see someone else's name on the cover of my book. Yeah, 318 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: magazines come and go. Newspapers. I had a fight with 319 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: my I used to write outdoor column for the newspaper 320 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: for twenty eight years. I want, I want to ask 321 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: you about that book. They totally screwed up one of 322 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: my columns. It doesn't matter why, but they totally mucked 323 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: it up. And uh. I called my editor and yelled 324 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: at him, and he said, hold on, but what does 325 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 1: that mean? Like, what did it what what happened to it? Well, 326 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: they they they ran it in four columns, four vertical 327 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: columns at the top of the page. But the columns 328 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: weren't in the right order, got you, So it read 329 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: like gibberish, okay, And I called and yelled at him, 330 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: and he said, man, that was yesterday. It's on the 331 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: bottom of a bird cage by now. So it's the 332 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: shitty feelings. Yeah, but he's right. Yeah, but it's like 333 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: it's painful to articulate it that way though, But there's 334 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: the truth to it. But that's that's that's newspapers, newspapers. 335 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: That's the problem with newspapers and magazines. If you're gonna 336 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: bring up the idea of having your name on the book. 337 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: Because I've considered myself like a pretty careful reader, okay, 338 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: and I'm aware of the publishing world, and i pay 339 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: attention to what's going on. I'll read pieces and uh 340 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: later some and be like, uh, who wrote the piece? 341 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: Like you know what, you don't know. As much as 342 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: I've spent my life pursuing this and in this business, 343 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: I never looked. And then you imagine that. And if 344 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: you think of yourself as like a careful reader who 345 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: is paying attention, and you imagine how most people will 346 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: perceive it, it winds up. It winds up. Yeah, it 347 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: makes you hungry for something that um, it makes you 348 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: hungry for something that's more that you could just like 349 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: continue to point to it as this thing that you 350 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: did because it sounds shallow in some ways in vain. 351 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: But people do want to be like recognized for their work. Yeah, 352 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: And um, you know, I wouldn't be the first writer 353 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: that was shallow in vain, right, No, No, there wasn't 354 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: a little hint of it. You wouldn't be a writer. Yeah, 355 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: I mean we do shine our work, right, we could. 356 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: We could all write under a pseudonym and be anonymous, 357 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: but we don't not many of us do. Um, yeah, 358 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: I just And the other thing is, I mean people 359 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: are gonna somebody reads a book and likes it. They're 360 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: gonna remember who wrote it. And a book could conceivably 361 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: last no ar in tees. But you know a book 362 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: could last whereas a magazine. Right, it's gonna end up 363 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: on the coffee table in the dentist's office eventually, and 364 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: then it's gonna get recycled and it's gonna be going. 365 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: People don't retain them. Well, some people do. Some people 366 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: save every issue with some magazine, but I mean not 367 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: like they retain a book. Man, you were done reading 368 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: the book, they don't throw in the garbage. They go 369 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: bring it to a donation center. Well, or they put 370 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: it in the bookshelf. If you saw in my office, 371 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: I don't know how many books I have down here. 372 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: When you like when you came out with your where 373 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: your were your first book? And then men, you I 374 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: know many of yourself school books and you can cry 375 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: if it's in fact all of them are collected pieces. 376 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: Do all of your books appear in print before they 377 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: go into your books, or do you have the original 378 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: material that appeared nowhere else that goes into your books. Uh, 379 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: there has been original material that appeared nowhere else, and 380 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: most of the stuff that was originally published somewhere else 381 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: has been expanded and into a book chapter. Have you 382 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: ever thought about like, like, why is that you haven't 383 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: done um, like like a full narrative book. I did 384 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: um at the Grave of the Unknown Fisherman. Kay, tell 385 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: me about that book, like what that was like doing 386 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: or what was like doing that book? It was, um, 387 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: you know, it was one of those uh seasons of 388 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: the Angler thing. I mean it was it was a 389 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: fourth season thing. And I just had this idea that 390 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: that would be the way to to do a book 391 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: is to go through the seasons and U and I 392 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: wrote the chapters as essays and I published most of 393 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: them in in magazines and then collected them into a book. 394 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: The thing about that's think about your writing that, uh 395 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: what does that kind of admire most about it is 396 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: even like the books, your books are often collections of 397 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: of pieces that that that are free standing pieces like 398 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: that they make sense and work in a free standing 399 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: form like chapter length form. But throughout it is this 400 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: is this broader story of you in your life and 401 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: your friends and one of the things that most strikes me, 402 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: and it is that that the the affection and love 403 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: you have for friends that have been your friends for 404 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: a long time and you come to kind of know them, 405 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: and you have a way of really capturing this long 406 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: arc of friendship and how it works and goes from 407 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: you being young and then you're kind of not young 408 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: right together, and then you're all kind of like past 409 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: some tipping point headed in another direction together and it 410 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: does together create this sense of that it is this 411 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: long meta narrative. And another thing that happens that that 412 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: was really striking me with your new book is that 413 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it like you're always somewhere else, right, 414 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: You're always on trips, travel. It seems like you travel incessantly, 415 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: and then a flyer out of your own you're gone. 416 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: You're you spent a lot of time in Labrador, you're 417 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: up in Alaska, you're fishing around Colorado. I think you're 418 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: in Washington, you spend time in Idaho. An you nowhere 419 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: else in your new book. But while this is going on, 420 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: there's like this life that you're having where your mother's dying. Yeah, um, 421 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: there's a big forest fire ripping by your house and 422 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: you're on this trip in Maine checking in back home, 423 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: and there's like chores that didn't get taken care of 424 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: back home, and there's a flood that destroys people. You're 425 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: the property of people that you're close with back home. 426 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of writers, like like 427 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: with travel writing is sort of it's that you're just 428 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: immersing the experience, but you do well. I think a 429 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: capturing all just like the nagging ship that you cannot 430 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: escape from. Like I used to joke that I used 431 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: to joke about that if you look at like what 432 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: what a writer writes was in a writer's head, they 433 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: don't match up. Because if you spend a bunch of 434 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: times somewhere and you're writing about it, you're're just like 435 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: really cherry picking the opportunities. An example would be we 436 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: do a show where an episode of the show is 437 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: twenty two minutes long, but we'll go out how many 438 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: hours will be honest, how many hours of footage would 439 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: be filmed? It's a hundred of one most of the times, 440 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: hundred of one ratio. Now, when you go and put 441 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: the together, if you go on a on a trip 442 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: and you're gone four or five days and you put 443 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: together twenty two minutes. You are like cherry picking. You're 444 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: not creating a representation of what exactly happened there, because 445 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: if you were, for every two minutes that you watched, 446 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: there'd be one minute where you're watching people sleep. So 447 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: you are doing like there's a there's a fiction to 448 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: nonfiction and that you're waiting things and talking about what's 449 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 1: of interest. Oh yeah, well and you're not. You're not 450 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: only doing that, but you're you're pulling in you're pulling 451 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: in memories, You're you're changing time. You know, time isn't 452 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: always uh linear, Yeah, and you certainly don't. And that's 453 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: one of the things that like the craft of your 454 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: writing too, is you're not you're not deceptive about chronology, 455 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: but you're just very good at like occasionally vague about it. Yeah. 456 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: It was just like when you get done, when you're 457 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: back from something, I think that you're not really concerned 458 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: with what did this and then this and this and this. 459 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: I think you're more concerned about here's the flow of 460 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: my ideas and and and I'm not gonna be I 461 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: don't need to tell you like this happened, and that happened, 462 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: and this happened, that happened necessarily in that order. So 463 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: and Ames, I'll see, like I'll be cruising along in 464 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: one of your pieces and I'll all of a sudden, 465 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: like whatever, you flip the page, you realize it's about 466 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: to end, and I'll think, my god, how is he 467 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: gonna He doesn't have enough space left to get us 468 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: back out of here right right to do all the 469 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: ship to get on the airplanes and low like there's 470 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: no space. And then you're all of a sudden, all 471 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're just like, and that's all I 472 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: have to say about that subject, and it's just refreshing. Well, 473 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: it's why you never see anybody in the movies go 474 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: to the bathroom. Well, yeah, but he dies, he gets 475 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: shot in the bathroom. But um, I mean, it's just 476 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: assumed that people go to the bathroom throughout the movie. 477 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: But you don't have to see it exactly. You don't 478 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: have to tell everybody everything you're telling what's worth telling. Yeah, 479 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: but but you know so, so I'm kind of saying 480 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: two things that are cross ways a little bit, because 481 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: you do great with that, and you do great with 482 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: delivering a version of a story that's most useful to 483 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: the reader to get the reader where you want them 484 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: to go. But in that calculation that you're making, you're 485 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: also not abandoning all sense, because you get the sense 486 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: and reading your work that you're still always very aware 487 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: of the world that you left behind when you went somewhere. 488 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: Well you are, aren't you? Absolutely? And and and uh, 489 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: but I think all people are. But I don't know 490 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: that many people have really embrace it and is done 491 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: as well as you've done it, where you can be 492 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: writing about a trip you're on, but also you're writing 493 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: about this kind of like the loss of your mother 494 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: and the weird family stuff that goes around the death 495 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: of a family member and what do you're obligations to 496 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: everyone when that happens. But it's all occurring sort of 497 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: like this, like humming noise in your head while you fish, 498 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: Like when you're out of town and you know something 499 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: bad is happening at home, you can't escape it. In 500 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: the rhythm with which you go from being in the 501 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: moment to being, oh, ship, there's a big fire by 502 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: my house on the other you know, miles away. It's 503 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: really it's impressive. Well, it's stream of consciousness and it's 504 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: more like it's scream of consciousness. Writing seems familiar to 505 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: people because it's how people think. That's a good point, 506 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, you don't You don't spend an hour thinking 507 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: about one thing. You spend an hour bouncing around about 508 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: twenty things. And if you're writing seventeen of those things 509 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: that are of no interest to anyone, so you leave 510 00:31:53,080 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: him out. Yeah, but you you bounce around and uh um, 511 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: you know you're someplace here, you're someplace on a fishing trip. 512 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: You see something that reminds you of something that happens 513 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: at home, or somebody you haven't talked to at home 514 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: or whatever. And that's how people think, and so they 515 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: recognize that in a piece of writing, what is your 516 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: what is your gauge? How do you know? Like when 517 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: you get into something that's not interesting, the seventeen things 518 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: that aren't interesting to other people? Who who are what 519 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: are you imagining to know? When you've gotten there, that 520 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: you're now in the things that are of interest only 521 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: to John girok Um, Well, it's somebody I think. This 522 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: was actually my old high school English teacher said, every 523 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: time you say something as a writer, you have to 524 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: ask yourself. Okay, But who gives a ship. Yeah, and 525 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: so you just do that. You say, why would anyone 526 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: care about this? Well, no one would, So let's skip 527 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: this and go on to the next thing that might 528 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: interest someone. I mean, it takes a tremendous it really 529 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: takes a tremendous ego to assume that anything at all 530 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: you have to say would be of interest to anyone else. 531 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: And so you understand you're really out there exposed. I mean, 532 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: you're spilling your guts to people, and the least you 533 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: can do is to try to do it well and 534 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: in a way that's useful to them. That's the thing, too, 535 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: is that that I find that you do well, and 536 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if you mean to do it well 537 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: as you do as muchs I thought about like being 538 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: like transcendent in writing or transcending genre writing and turning 539 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: it into turning it into art and something that's beautiful 540 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: and that can move people emotionally or make them reconsider 541 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: the world in their place in it. You also have 542 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: you do you also deal in the technical m hmm. 543 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: There's the thing I read in your new book that 544 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: had never occurred to me before, where um, I can't remember, 545 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: I can't remember what piece it was in, but you'll 546 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: you'll remember just when I bring it up. Is that 547 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: let me approach this a different way. If I'm standing 548 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: on a riverbank, okay, and I see a fish a 549 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: trout rise, I'll be like, there's a trout, okay, and 550 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: then I'll see, let's say I'm slightly down I'm looking 551 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: like downstream, I'm I'm facing the river. I'm looking downstream 552 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: towards ten o'clock and like there's a trout, and then 553 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, a complements later. Fish rises at 554 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,919 Speaker 1: two o'clock. I say, there's another one, and then one 555 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: goes at noon, and I'll be like, another one. And 556 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't until reading your recent book that occurred to 557 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: me that that could be a fish who's moving around 558 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: just like like, I get it now, but it's like 559 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: never conceptually, I always would have been like one, two 560 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: three trout. Yeah, I see that he's he's like actively 561 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: going back and forth through some area, a ating the 562 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: illusion that most guys would come and think goes a 563 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: shipload of trout. I figured that out on the Henry's 564 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: four years ago. He's big trout would get in a run, 565 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 1: usually not drakes, but but smaller bugs, and they would 566 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: just they they drift down a run and they just 567 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: eat one here, and they'd move up and eat one there, 568 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: and they're might eat five bugs and then they just 569 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: dropped down and just drop back and do it again. 570 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: And your first thought is there are shicks, big rainbows 571 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: in here. Oh yeah, and you're still casting to where 572 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: the one went, because he and you, even though you 573 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: know a fish move all over place. You talk about 574 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: everything in a laborator, or they put a some kind 575 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: of tracking mechanism or tag on a brook trout that 576 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: traveled thirty miles up river. Yeah, but like I get 577 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 1: that intellectually, like I understand that. But and looking at 578 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: like when a fish rise is somehow I realized this 579 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: is funny. Now, all these years I've sat there, I've 580 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 1: imagined him somehow being like static in space. So often 581 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: they are, Yeah, a lot of times they are. They 582 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: really is just there. They just fish do whatever they 583 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: need to do to survive and flourish, whatever they need 584 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: to do within reason. They can't get out on walk 585 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: on land, but some of them stay in a half 586 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: mile of stream your whole life. Some of them go 587 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: out to the ocean, swim to the shape Japan and 588 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 1: eat trump. You know, they just do what they want, 589 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: They do what they need to do. Is that like, 590 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: is understanding that kind of keep you going as a 591 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: fishing excited? I mean, I know you obviously fish because 592 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: that's your it's become your livelihood, right, so so there's 593 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: that extra bit of motivation. But like, how do you really, um, like, 594 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: what keeps you fishing? Because you kind of write about 595 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: fishing in some of these same places where you've been 596 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: fishing the same places for decades. Well, because you never 597 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: quite get it right, the same thing that keeps you writing. 598 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you might do well at it, but you're 599 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: never going to completely do it right or exhaust the subject. 600 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: And it's fine, so you keep doing it. It's pretty simple. Yeah, 601 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: Like you feel like you've never like you can't like 602 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: you've never mastered anything with fishing, fishing or writing or 603 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: anything else anything else worth doing. Yeah, you have a 604 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,919 Speaker 1: line in one of your books, in an earlier book 605 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: I read, and you also mentioned in your new book 606 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: this idea that um that there's when it comes to 607 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 1: fishing and I and I've I've quoted you on this 608 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: in a number of times, even to some audiences where uh, 609 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: he's saying fishing there. You tend to view the world 610 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: there's as your's, your party and then the assholes. But 611 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: it's what's funny when I read that from you, is that, um, 612 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: everybody does that, but it was funny like a guy 613 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: like you, though, as you're producing all this beautiful work 614 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: for the consumption of obviously the assholes like you, hope 615 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: to sell books beyond your immediate social circle. So it 616 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: just like brings up this interesting idea of like, how 617 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: like I generally in life, right, I want like when 618 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: I look at politically and culturally in the country, sort 619 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: of the question I asked myself when I look at 620 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: things that are going on, I'm like, what's good for 621 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: what's best for hunters and fishermen. It's just like, like 622 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: I feel that the obligation personally and I feel that 623 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: obligation professionally to kind of look at that ends of 624 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: like what if this is what what's good for hunters 625 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: and fishermen in America on this issue? I have that, 626 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: But I also have the feeling of when you pull 627 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: in and you're there's a truck there where you're going 628 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: and you're like, son of a bit. Yeah, I hate 629 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: that guy. It's it's just a it's it's like a 630 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: funny thing of perception. Yeah yeah, but she everybody else 631 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: thinks that too. I mean, if I pull up in 632 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: a river and go, well, look look at look, there's 633 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: an asshole standing in my pool, he looks back at 634 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: me and my pickup truck and goes, well, that asshole 635 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: wants my pool. We all we all do it, and 636 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: and it's like, what's your take on it? And what 637 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: do you think about it? Much? It's just like just 638 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: a natural thing. It's just a natural thing. And if 639 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: you just go talk to the guy you want to 640 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: be loving him. Yeah, I mean, if you just you know, 641 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: I've had people come up and stand while I was 642 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: fishing and and I say, you want to end, I'll 643 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: go to the next pool. Do you have a sort 644 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: of of a composite kind of individual or a friend 645 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: or whatever that when you're writing, you imagine yourself that 646 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: that they're your bullshit gauge. Yeah, they're that, they're who 647 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: you're talking to. I do, I do. I mean it 648 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: changes from time to time, but um I developed this trick, 649 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, I wrote, um a column a week for 650 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: twenty eight years. I can't do the math. But there's 651 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: a lot of stinking columns in the newspaper, but mostly 652 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: about fishing, some some hunting, some other stuff. And you know, 653 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: I I started out when I was pretty young, and 654 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: I kind of struggled with the style I wanted. I 655 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: always wanted to write in a very conversational style. And 656 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: I had this running correspondence with my my oldest continuous 657 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: friend at angle, who's also a fishing writer, and we 658 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: were we were also poetched together back in the day. Yeah, 659 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: and he's worked for the Fourth Service. He's a he's 660 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: a fantastic outdoorsman. But um, I just and we had 661 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: this correspondence and it was it just flowed like water. 662 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: And I one day, just on a whim, I was 663 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: going to write a story about I don't know, going 664 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: fishing somewhere, and I just typed dear head, and I 665 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: just told the story like I was writing to Ed, 666 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: except you know, like slightly more in complete sentences and 667 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: less perfect fulfill obligations yea to the reader. Um. And 668 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: then when I was done, I scratched out dear ed 669 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: and that was it, right, Yeah, good East always gave me. 670 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: You know, we were right in the guy book, you'd say, yeah, 671 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: just imagine you're at the bar with when your buddies 672 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: doesn't know quite as much about the subject as you do. 673 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: You had a beer too, You're feeling, you know, pretty loose. 674 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: You can, you can roll it all out fast, and 675 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: then imagine you're just gonna deliver that content to that person. Yeah. 676 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: I's similar to that. I remember in in in writing 677 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: school and in graduate school, I would turn in, you know, 678 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: these pieces and workshop and I was working on magazine 679 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: pieces that I later published in Uh. A teacher became 680 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: a very dear friend of mine, dear to name or 681 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: a novelist. She would say she would look at and 682 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: me like, now it's now you're like writing. Yeah, now 683 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: you're writing, and it's annoying to me. You know. It 684 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: was better when I felt that you were like telling 685 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: me something, you know, because you're slipping into this thing 686 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: how you imagine a writer would sound. Tom Wolfe gave 687 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: a series of lectures somewhere Princeton or somewhere, and I, 688 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: a friend of mine, had him, and I listened to him, 689 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: and he said a great thing. He said that his 690 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,479 Speaker 1: students he'd hear him are on campus, and he said, 691 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: they just they spoke so easily, and they had this 692 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: real facility with language and slang, and they were playful. 693 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: And then he said, you get them in a writing 694 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: class and they write like their Victorian lawyers, with all 695 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: these here here to fours and whereases and stuff. He said, 696 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: My my job was to say, you already play the instrument, 697 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: just write it down. You know, you've been talking for 698 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: twenty years. You know how to have a conversation. Just 699 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,840 Speaker 1: write it down. But it's not a given that everyone 700 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 1: knows how to have a conversation. But I think that 701 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 1: it's a given that most people who go into the 702 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: field probably come from that because they have sort of 703 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: like a love of X, a love of of like 704 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: explaining telling for the bullshit thing that I'm talking about, 705 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: which probably the same thing like your friend ed is. 706 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: I have in my head like anything I do, like 707 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,760 Speaker 1: whatever kind of media might be dealing with in the moment, 708 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 1: I always imagine I always try to imagine that the 709 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: response of my two older brothers and gauging like if 710 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: I like, if I'm doing good, It's the kind of 711 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: thing that I would hope that they would stumble across 712 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: if I'm not being my best self. It's the kind 713 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 1: of thing where I'm like, I hope those guys don't 714 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,400 Speaker 1: stumble across this. Yeah, and that is and that to 715 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: me is like worked well as as a guide. But 716 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: I don't think everyone has the luxury of having older 717 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: brothers who are interested in the same ship they're interested in, 718 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: which I realized is a luxury. You know, it is 719 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: a luxury. The luxury I've had is I've had some 720 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: really good colleagues and teachers who've taught me things about writing, 721 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: and um, often not much, but but just a little 722 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 1: piece that I can put together. Um. I always think 723 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,879 Speaker 1: of that because he's a he's a withering critic. He's 724 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 1: really just cut you down the size. He once said 725 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: of trump Bum. Somebody asked him how he liked trout Bum, 726 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: and he said, well, I said, I think it makes 727 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: up in enthusiasm what it ll action quality. Ouch. I 728 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: don't know, man, I see from your perspective that might 729 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: be bad. But here's the thing, like a word that 730 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: sticks in my head for not not just traumdum, but 731 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: but all your books is just like an exuberance. Yeah, 732 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: I don't know if you really like I don't know 733 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,879 Speaker 1: if you really like life and being alive as much 734 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,359 Speaker 1: as yourself on the page does. But there's an infectious 735 00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: enthusiasm for just being alive. Well, not that you paint, 736 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: but it's not like you paint it as just it's 737 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: not like you paint being alive is just like nothing 738 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: but just good times and laughs, because being alive is 739 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: in some ways it's a struggle in a hassle. But 740 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: you paint being alive is like something that's really worth doing. Yeah, 741 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,839 Speaker 1: well don't you think it is? Yeah, But I think 742 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: it's also easy to fall under trap where you lose 743 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: sight of how worthwhile it all is. Yeah, for sure, 744 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: or that you don't take time to have to say 745 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: to yourself, like, my god, is it worthwhile being alive? Yeah, 746 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: because you can have weeks go by without realizing that, 747 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: and it's like one of the beauties of the natural 748 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: world is like for me, the reminder I get it 749 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: through my kids now because I have young kids, But 750 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: for me a long time, the only real genuine reminder 751 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: of that was the natural world. It was the time 752 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:55,760 Speaker 1: that I felt it was the time that I would 753 00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: be like, holy sh it, being alive, man, I need 754 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: to do more of this would be like inspired by 755 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,879 Speaker 1: by how much you love your friends and love being 756 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: outside with them, yeah, and seeing things with them. And 757 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: now like I get in a very different way because 758 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,840 Speaker 1: I get because I have young kids and in the 759 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: minute you need, anytime you feel like slog slog down 760 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: or slow down or in a bog, just take one 761 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: second to imagine not being able to see them grow 762 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 1: into what they'll become. And it makes you just really 763 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,319 Speaker 1: really glad, yeah about the fact that you're breathing air, 764 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:41,839 Speaker 1: because it's such a like a daunting, miserable thought. Well, 765 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: and you know, you spend a lot of time outside, 766 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, with other people who spend a lot of 767 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: time outside, and you just see great stuff. Yeah, you know, 768 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,480 Speaker 1: you see beautiful stuff and not everybody. I don't think 769 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 1: everybody has that in her life, and or they don't. 770 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: You know, you slip off to work for the nine 771 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: thousands day in a row. You know, maybe you don't 772 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: look around and go, jeez, it's a nice day. Do 773 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: you do you self? Do you self identify as an environmentalist, 774 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 1: like in the way that many people would recognize that 775 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: um in your I think when you're talking about. You know, 776 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: you spent a lot of time talking about like like 777 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: like habitat for fish, like what fish need to live, 778 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,320 Speaker 1: But you also spend time time about just sort of 779 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 1: like the general um way that things go with nature. 780 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: And I think that and sometimes in there there's like 781 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,359 Speaker 1: a bit of um in your voice and in your 782 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: world view, there's a bit of cynicism and maybe like 783 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:57,719 Speaker 1: a little bit of pessimism that that that we're it's 784 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 1: like that we won't be able to stop the bleeding. Yeah, 785 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: well I think that we may not be able to UM. 786 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 1: I mean it's hard when you've just had the the 787 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 1: two biggest hurricanes on record within months of each other, 788 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: and we've pulled out of the Paris records UM, and 789 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: the e p A is dropping all their regulations, all 790 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:32,840 Speaker 1: their environmental regulations. You think, well, I don't know, maybe 791 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,480 Speaker 1: this is the end. But you know, all you can 792 00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: do is just say to people in a in a 793 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: roundabout way, this is not only is this beautiful and worthwhile, 794 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: not only is it good for you to spend time 795 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:54,839 Speaker 1: out here, but we'll die without it. Yeah, And you 796 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,319 Speaker 1: really should maybe think about that the next time you 797 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,160 Speaker 1: go to the polls, or maybe you should just think 798 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,800 Speaker 1: about going to the stinking polls. I mean, it kills 799 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:09,400 Speaker 1: me that half the eligible voters in this country don't vote, 800 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,440 Speaker 1: after all, the people who've died so they have a 801 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,600 Speaker 1: right to vote. Yeah, um no, yeah, it's a good 802 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: way of putting it. You know, it's it's just shameful. 803 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 1: Do you think that you have an obligation in your work? Um, 804 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,760 Speaker 1: Like when you bring up an idea in your books. 805 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,879 Speaker 1: I remember you're talking about being in uh, you're talking 806 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: about being in some remote outposts somewhere I can't remember 807 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: what it was, and you're saying that everyone there was 808 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: either everyone there is either there to go fishing or 809 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,919 Speaker 1: there for mineral extraction, and you kind of talked about 810 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 1: the two different views they had of the future of 811 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,880 Speaker 1: that place. When you're when you're talking about that kind 812 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: of stuff and thinking about those things, are you putting 813 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,240 Speaker 1: it in there because you can't, um, you can't help yourself, 814 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: but put it in there? Or do you feel that 815 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,840 Speaker 1: you have an obligation because you're talking to outdoorsman and fisherman, 816 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: do you have an obligation to steer them in a 817 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,000 Speaker 1: direction that you feel that they need to go in 818 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: order to understand probably a little of both. I don't 819 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,320 Speaker 1: I don't sit down at a keyboard with a sense 820 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: of obligation. Um, but when something like that comes up, 821 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: I I feel like I should make note of it, 822 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,320 Speaker 1: just to keep people aware. I mean a lot of ways, 823 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm just preaching to the choir. I don't know if 824 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who read me who wouldn't 825 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 1: consider themselves environmentalists or conservationists or you know, in some 826 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,919 Speaker 1: way so you don't think this. Somewhere there's a guy. 827 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: I bet you there are. I bet you there are 828 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:55,480 Speaker 1: guys who read you and think you're funny and they 829 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: love to fish, but it annoys them when you go 830 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,440 Speaker 1: down that path. Oh yeah, I suppose there are. I 831 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 1: mean I'm not saying I've talked to them, but there are. Yeah, 832 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,319 Speaker 1: because they have to be um, well, I don't care. 833 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: I mean people like that need to be tweaked too. 834 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe they just need to be reminded. Well, well, 835 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,160 Speaker 1: all these guys I'm hanging out with having such a 836 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:26,440 Speaker 1: great time, they're worried about the environment. I wonder if 837 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,000 Speaker 1: I should look into that. You know, I don't know, 838 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: and you have concerns too. So there's like the environment, 839 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: which is like the place we live in, are in, 840 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,360 Speaker 1: what's in our backyards, and what's in our communities, and 841 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: just this big, huge broad thing. But you also seem 842 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:45,120 Speaker 1: to have a lot of concerns for wilderness. And there 843 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,320 Speaker 1: was a there was a thing that that you mentioned. 844 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,479 Speaker 1: You're talking about float planes, and and you start out 845 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,279 Speaker 1: and you start out this is in a fly out 846 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 1: of your own, and you're talking about flow planes. You 847 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,719 Speaker 1: start about this describing this kind of crazy place you 848 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,120 Speaker 1: arrive at and the things that go on there and 849 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,200 Speaker 1: the wildlife there, and there's like graves, some possibly old 850 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 1: French trappers laying around, and all the just ten ft 851 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: high mounded cariboo antlers, and you paint this picture. You 852 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,120 Speaker 1: go like, yeah, that's the kind of place where a 853 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,080 Speaker 1: floatplane can get you. And then you're going to explain 854 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 1: how you used to have a more uh, you had 855 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,760 Speaker 1: this like different view of float planes and the access 856 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: they provided, and now that your view of floatplanes is 857 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,040 Speaker 1: sort of tainted by the idea that, oh, that's right, 858 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,200 Speaker 1: everything comes at a cost, yea, And the simple fact 859 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: of this plane allowing me to be here in some 860 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: way some way that's a corrupting force to now and 861 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: like brings us and it brings us kind of like 862 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,880 Speaker 1: it brings us bitter sweet sort of feeling to it. Yeah, 863 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:58,800 Speaker 1: but it's just it's just by way of reminding people 864 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: that there is a cost. I mean, I think I 865 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,439 Speaker 1: remember that passage. It's something like, you know, you've you've 866 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:12,040 Speaker 1: gone to this absolutely remote, beautiful, pristine place and you 867 00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,399 Speaker 1: step out of the floatplane under the pontoon as there's 868 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 1: a stinking oil slick from your plane your plane. Yeah, 869 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,560 Speaker 1: And I just I just feel it's worth reminding people 870 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,440 Speaker 1: that that's there. But it's it isn't I don't know 871 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: how calculated it is, you know what I mean. I 872 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:39,360 Speaker 1: mean it occurs to me and so and I'm writing 873 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,919 Speaker 1: about what's what's happening with me? So I I say, well, 874 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,319 Speaker 1: here's this because in my stream of conscious this this 875 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,239 Speaker 1: is a this is a real theme that ought to 876 00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,880 Speaker 1: be explored. Yeah, and it passes the test of is 877 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:53,560 Speaker 1: it something that people are gonna give us it about? 878 00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,400 Speaker 1: I should show you the photograph. I've got it somewhere. 879 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:02,719 Speaker 1: Good friend of mine, Mike, We're Jack wonderful black and 880 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: white photographer took some photos on a trip to Labrador, 881 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:13,239 Speaker 1: and one of them it's beautiful shot down the the 882 00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 1: board dock out to the float plane, beautiful old dehaveling 883 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:24,960 Speaker 1: beaver tied up, and in the foreground are just oil barrels, 884 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:32,360 Speaker 1: like twenty or thirty of them. And I said, was that? 885 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,799 Speaker 1: I asked him, was that intentionally? He said, oh, hell, yeah, 886 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,360 Speaker 1: that's good. Have you read John mcfees coming into the 887 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,439 Speaker 1: Country's History of Alaska? Yeah, but not for a long time. 888 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 1: He spends a significant portion of that book talking about 889 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:50,160 Speaker 1: the oil drums, oil barrels. It's really like, in a way, 890 00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: it's not heavy handed, but it's just as ever present 891 00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: thing as oil drums. Well, Alaska is I mean, you 892 00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,399 Speaker 1: go up to Alaska, it's beautiful, it's wilderness, catch all 893 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: these fish, the whole, I mean, the old reason there's 894 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:06,919 Speaker 1: any civilization up there's oil and channeling. You know, it's 895 00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:08,680 Speaker 1: crazy think about used to be, you know, a hundred 896 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:12,440 Speaker 1: years ago with sea otters. I've had a feeling just 897 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: kind of back to that feeling of the conflictedness, right 898 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,400 Speaker 1: that you love places and so you want to go 899 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,359 Speaker 1: see them, but knowing that somehow your presence I've had 900 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: criticism before, like I was. I was hunting one time 901 00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,680 Speaker 1: in anwar the Arctic National Wildlife Refugere, and I remember 902 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,640 Speaker 1: hearing criticism from someone I can't remember who it was, 903 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,680 Speaker 1: was pointing out like how unfair it was, Like here 904 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,920 Speaker 1: you are, you want this place to be hands off 905 00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,960 Speaker 1: and and no one could go there, but you get 906 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,680 Speaker 1: to go there, like you have the the economic means 907 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 1: to go here, and so you're saying, like all the 908 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,000 Speaker 1: things that should or shouldn't happen here, most people would 909 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,919 Speaker 1: never be able to go there. What gives your right 910 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:55,839 Speaker 1: to have an opinion about what happens to this place? 911 00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 1: It's not fair? Yeah, yeah, And I remember thinking like 912 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,879 Speaker 1: I would if you if I could make a deal 913 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,080 Speaker 1: right now though, if someone came to me and said, 914 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,480 Speaker 1: we can never we'll never touch it again, but you 915 00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:11,560 Speaker 1: can't go, but you can't go, I would say deal 916 00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,000 Speaker 1: me too. I would say, okay, great, me too. Let's 917 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,080 Speaker 1: get the lawyer and sign this. Let's get the lawyer 918 00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:18,720 Speaker 1: and draw this thing up right now. I will never 919 00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,160 Speaker 1: come back. And since that will never happen, people just 920 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,480 Speaker 1: have to believe you when you say that. Yeah, no, 921 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,440 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a it's a tricky thing. It's a 922 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:34,960 Speaker 1: tricky thing. What do you feel about where do you 923 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: feel that catch release fishing is at in light of 924 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,400 Speaker 1: like in light of kind of like new thinking and 925 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,640 Speaker 1: new awareness that you see in the food world, in 926 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,240 Speaker 1: the chef world of people sort of like sort of 927 00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:52,920 Speaker 1: having this this idea that there um reconnecting with sources 928 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,280 Speaker 1: of food and people want to have these like these 929 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,560 Speaker 1: experiences where you see food go from you know, the 930 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:05,440 Speaker 1: water to your plate. Yeah. I think it's useful and 931 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:11,200 Speaker 1: necessary to a degree because there are so there are 932 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:16,640 Speaker 1: too many people fishing for the fisheries not to be 933 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:21,080 Speaker 1: degraded seriously. So I think the idea that you know, 934 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,400 Speaker 1: I fish a lot, and if I killed all the 935 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 1: fish I caught, I would make a big dent. So 936 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,160 Speaker 1: but but I think it's permissible. I was never one 937 00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,360 Speaker 1: of those guys who thought killing a fish was murder, 938 00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,640 Speaker 1: and I've and I've written about that any number of times. 939 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,400 Speaker 1: Um talk about eating a char and at the end 940 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,760 Speaker 1: of the book and chunking up a char and mixing 941 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:47,959 Speaker 1: it in with under the seat of a plane. Well 942 00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 1: there was that, but there was also I just we 943 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,920 Speaker 1: went out and caught a couple of big char, like 944 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,520 Speaker 1: six eight pound char, beautiful fish, and flew him back 945 00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,560 Speaker 1: in Francis. The camp cook cooks him up. But I 946 00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:07,520 Speaker 1: shed in that I shed something like you know, I 947 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,760 Speaker 1: didn't blank when I killed it, and I didn't think 948 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,120 Speaker 1: twice about it. Uh. Somehow I felt like the world 949 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 1: owed me that fish, and I was happy to eat it. 950 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,720 Speaker 1: There's another passage where you're up in a place and 951 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,080 Speaker 1: you're fishing. You actually you actually talk about your camp 952 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:25,880 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know the same trip. You're 953 00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,080 Speaker 1: talking about being up there and eating king salmon. But 954 00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 1: then you do kind of point out that, um, some 955 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,120 Speaker 1: of these places, like in Alaska, when you get these 956 00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,600 Speaker 1: glimpses of abundance, right because un last of you be 957 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,920 Speaker 1: in the river and in in uh ten and a 958 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,800 Speaker 1: half months out of the year, I mean ship in 959 00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,280 Speaker 1: the river. Right. But then there's this this this flurry, 960 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,120 Speaker 1: and people coincide their trips to catch the flurry and 961 00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,280 Speaker 1: it creates this like sense of never ending abundance. And 962 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 1: you talk about this feeling that, um, some people have 963 00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,680 Speaker 1: a hard time being around that without being And I'm 964 01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,160 Speaker 1: gonna take fifty pounds of these things home and let 965 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,960 Speaker 1: him get freezer burned in my freezer. When thinking about 966 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,360 Speaker 1: the you know, the environment in the state of clean 967 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:17,160 Speaker 1: water and healthy fisheries and and wildlife habitat you you 968 01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,959 Speaker 1: kind of get into this point were you talking about 969 01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:24,960 Speaker 1: you can either live with regret about the things that 970 01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: are gone or the things that have become overexploited, like 971 01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,040 Speaker 1: live with regret and become bitter, or just look for 972 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,920 Speaker 1: new water. And I feel like you're being like you're 973 01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:41,040 Speaker 1: being metaphorical there, Yeah, for sure, good pick up, Like 974 01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,160 Speaker 1: like can you can you explain you're thinking on that, 975 01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,880 Speaker 1: like kind of what you what you mean when you 976 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:47,960 Speaker 1: say that in a in a literal sense and what 977 01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,200 Speaker 1: you kind of mean in a more and more figurative sense, 978 01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,000 Speaker 1: like live with regret or look for new water. Well 979 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:59,640 Speaker 1: in a figurative sense. It's what we're talking about earlier. Um, yeah, 980 01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, maybe the world's ending, but why give up? 981 01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,680 Speaker 1: I mean we could stop it, maybe we could turn 982 01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:13,000 Speaker 1: things around. So I mean you can't just give up, right, Yeah, 983 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:18,920 Speaker 1: And then there's the uh, there's the sub text of 984 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:25,760 Speaker 1: every time you go find new water, Um, you know, 985 01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:32,880 Speaker 1: you're one more guy exploiting that place. So I just 986 01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,880 Speaker 1: I just would like people to think about this stuff. 987 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:39,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you have to change what you do 988 01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,080 Speaker 1: or anything. I mean, I don't plan to stop fishing 989 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,400 Speaker 1: because I think there's too heavier burden on the streams. 990 01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:52,080 Speaker 1: But I think it's I think it's worthwhile to be 991 01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,760 Speaker 1: aware of that there is too heavier burden on the streams. 992 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,680 Speaker 1: That's why a lot of us catch a release fish. Yeah, um, 993 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,200 Speaker 1: continue doing what you love, but not have a Yeah, 994 01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,200 Speaker 1: just I mean, there's no you know, I'm happy to 995 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:11,919 Speaker 1: go someplace catch two fish. There's a little creek up here, 996 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,800 Speaker 1: not too far from here. Um. I like to go 997 01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:20,680 Speaker 1: up there in the late summer fall and get a 998 01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:27,240 Speaker 1: couple of brook trout and a handful of perfect little 999 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:34,040 Speaker 1: door knobs sized belitas, mushrooms, ants a wild raspberries and 1000 01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:38,840 Speaker 1: either cook him there or come home cook him at home. Yeah. 1001 01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:40,800 Speaker 1: I usually cook him a little there, usually a little 1002 01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:45,160 Speaker 1: better if I cook him at home. And um, I 1003 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,120 Speaker 1: would never want to lose that. And a lot of 1004 01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,760 Speaker 1: a lot of places I go kill fish and eat it. 1005 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,959 Speaker 1: Shore launch. Yeah, you talk about that in your boat. 1006 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,880 Speaker 1: We were in the Northwest Territories a couple of years ago, 1007 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:06,520 Speaker 1: and uh, great Bear Lake, and the the fishing was 1008 01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:10,600 Speaker 1: so good we wanted a five pound lake trout for 1009 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:16,040 Speaker 1: lunch and we had to fish all morning to almost 1010 01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:23,520 Speaker 1: one o'clock to catch one that small. Yeah, and I 1011 01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,240 Speaker 1: mean that's just it's it's it really is wonderful to 1012 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: see that kind of abundance. But you gotta there were 1013 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,400 Speaker 1: there are people who would have kept all those fish 1014 01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,520 Speaker 1: if they could not as many as there used to be. 1015 01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I really think people are becoming aware that, 1016 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, why I kill fifty pounds of fish, like 1017 01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,720 Speaker 1: more aware about the finiteness of of nature. Yeah, uh yeah. 1018 01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,080 Speaker 1: If I can do it, everybody else could do it. 1019 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,480 Speaker 1: And then what happens? I think there. I think it 1020 01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:00,000 Speaker 1: was in that book there's a I recounted an argue 1021 01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,800 Speaker 1: went between a bush pilot and a sport and the 1022 01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,240 Speaker 1: guy said, well, why not keep fifty pounds of salmon? 1023 01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,680 Speaker 1: They're gonna die anyway, And the pilot said, well, they're 1024 01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:12,720 Speaker 1: gonna die after they spawn, and everyone you kill is 1025 01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,120 Speaker 1: one it isn't going to spoil. And then he went 1026 01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,320 Speaker 1: on to ask the guy, are you really that stupid 1027 01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:22,200 Speaker 1: or you're just playing dumps that you can go on 1028 01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:27,240 Speaker 1: being an asshole. Yeah, no, I don't know. That's the 1029 01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,000 Speaker 1: term you used to see so much. I think I 1030 01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:30,720 Speaker 1: read it and your things like they used to be. 1031 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,360 Speaker 1: This idea of the game hog, which I hadn't heard 1032 01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:39,800 Speaker 1: a long time. Um, do you you're you're careful about 1033 01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 1: not naming places that would be easy for people to 1034 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,400 Speaker 1: get to. But have you felt have you come under 1035 01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,960 Speaker 1: criticism with friends or have you ever felt like that 1036 01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,919 Speaker 1: because your work so widely known that you've provided sort 1037 01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,440 Speaker 1: of a compass and map two people looking for for 1038 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,120 Speaker 1: good fishing, or doesn't it work that way that you 1039 01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,200 Speaker 1: write about somewhere and then come back and it's different 1040 01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:06,520 Speaker 1: than it was because you drive, because you personally drove 1041 01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:11,479 Speaker 1: everyone there. I've never been directly criticized for that, but 1042 01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:15,760 Speaker 1: I know it happens. I mean, I've written about the 1043 01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:21,520 Speaker 1: South Platte River, Cheeseman Canyon down through Deckers, which isn't 1044 01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,760 Speaker 1: as good now as it used to be, and it's 1045 01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:28,960 Speaker 1: really not because of fishing pressure so much as whirling 1046 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:33,560 Speaker 1: disease and then flash floods that silted everything in because 1047 01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:36,040 Speaker 1: a lot of bugs. You know, it's coming back in 1048 01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:41,840 Speaker 1: after a fashion. But um, that was crowded when I 1049 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:46,439 Speaker 1: first wrote about it, And is it more crowded now 1050 01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:49,360 Speaker 1: because I wrote about it? Yeah? Maybe I don't know. 1051 01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:55,120 Speaker 1: But um, I've never really been held to account for that. 1052 01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:58,400 Speaker 1: But I'm aware of it. I'm aware it happens. Yeah, 1053 01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,680 Speaker 1: but I think that it's probably say to say that, 1054 01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,120 Speaker 1: but it's also why. It's also why I'm so careful 1055 01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:11,520 Speaker 1: about not saying where places are. UM some places at 1056 01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,880 Speaker 1: Engle again said to me once his rule is he 1057 01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:20,040 Speaker 1: won't write about any stream he can roll cast across. 1058 01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,439 Speaker 1: And he said, and I can roll cast a hell 1059 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:29,680 Speaker 1: of a long way. That's good, you are. The thing 1060 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:33,120 Speaker 1: I need to keep in mind is that regulated recreational 1061 01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,480 Speaker 1: fishermen are not going to destroy a fishery. They might 1062 01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,880 Speaker 1: destroy some bit of the experience of participating in the fishery, 1063 01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,280 Speaker 1: but they're not going to destroy the fishery. They're not 1064 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,360 Speaker 1: gonna fish out every fish like a like a a 1065 01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:49,280 Speaker 1: toxic spill, would you know, But they're gonna degrade it 1066 01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:53,800 Speaker 1: to the point where where you once could go catch 1067 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,360 Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty fish on a dry fly. Now the 1068 01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,360 Speaker 1: best you can do as a foot long fish. You've 1069 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:03,520 Speaker 1: seen that, UM, not quite to that extreme, But yeah, 1070 01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:07,120 Speaker 1: I've seen it, like like you've you've felt the repercussions 1071 01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:11,720 Speaker 1: of a lot of recreational fishing. Yeah. And then you 1072 01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:18,000 Speaker 1: have a thing that you're talking about in a funny way. 1073 01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,920 Speaker 1: You're talking about being in a camp in the past. 1074 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,760 Speaker 1: You're talking about, you know, having been pretty drunk where 1075 01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,640 Speaker 1: you're blowing out a fire and like passed out in 1076 01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: the fire and burnt your beard. And uh and I 1077 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:32,960 Speaker 1: think in that same thing you talk about you just 1078 01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:35,640 Speaker 1: don't drink like you you kind of like don't drink 1079 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:40,360 Speaker 1: like you used to. Is that sort of um, is 1080 01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,880 Speaker 1: stopping drinking sort of like this acknowledgement that is it 1081 01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,440 Speaker 1: like a personal acknowledgement that you won't be on earth forever? 1082 01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:50,680 Speaker 1: It was a different than that. Well, I think I 1083 01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,360 Speaker 1: always knew I wasn't gonna be on earth, but we 1084 01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,959 Speaker 1: don't know it, know it. Um. No, it was more 1085 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:03,960 Speaker 1: that I I knew I was drinking more than I 1086 01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:07,840 Speaker 1: probably should, and I knew it wasn't good for me, 1087 01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:14,240 Speaker 1: and I wasn't feeling good. And h I was in 1088 01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:18,200 Speaker 1: my forties, I was making a living as a writer, 1089 01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:23,160 Speaker 1: and I just thought, I I'm not enjoying this like 1090 01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:27,760 Speaker 1: I used to. It doesn't make me feel good, and 1091 01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:29,880 Speaker 1: I need my wits about me if I'm going to 1092 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:34,720 Speaker 1: keep doing this. I think it was more there was 1093 01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:38,160 Speaker 1: less an actual intimation of mortality and more just the 1094 01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:42,439 Speaker 1: idea that, um, at forty, I could have another forty 1095 01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:48,360 Speaker 1: years in me if I don't pickle my brains, right, 1096 01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,679 Speaker 1: But if I pickled my brains, maybe I've only got twenty. 1097 01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:54,920 Speaker 1: Was it Mickey Man who said if I hadn't know 1098 01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:56,200 Speaker 1: when I was gonna live this long, I was of 1099 01:08:56,240 --> 01:09:00,200 Speaker 1: taaking better care of myself. Yeah. I find that Like 1100 01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,080 Speaker 1: a joke I often make is when I think about 1101 01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,799 Speaker 1: how old I am or other people's age, I always 1102 01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,840 Speaker 1: double it and then remind them that they're halfway to X, 1103 01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,479 Speaker 1: so I'm not halfway to eighty six. What's helpful is 1104 01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,200 Speaker 1: I know how long I've been alive and I can 1105 01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:21,200 Speaker 1: picture that span of time. So understanding where I'm at 1106 01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,640 Speaker 1: in the halfway mark helps me like conceptualize whether or 1107 01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:28,479 Speaker 1: not I have that long again. Yeah, reaching out ahead 1108 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,519 Speaker 1: of me, and I'm not at the point where I 1109 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:34,360 Speaker 1: might not have. I might not have the amount of 1110 01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:37,479 Speaker 1: time behind me ahead of me. I could We'll try 1111 01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:44,040 Speaker 1: being halfway to a forty Do you feel that you're 1112 01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,479 Speaker 1: gonna do you feel you'll be doing more books? Are 1113 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:48,920 Speaker 1: you gonna keep writing? Like? Do you have a plan? 1114 01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:52,680 Speaker 1: And not? Right? If he just writes he just cannot write, well, 1115 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna write, chill, I can't write. I I just 1116 01:09:55,120 --> 01:10:01,000 Speaker 1: signed a contract um earlier this year for two more 1117 01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:06,400 Speaker 1: books over six years, did the same publisher. So that's 1118 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,600 Speaker 1: a nice relationship you've had with your publisher, man, a 1119 01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:15,280 Speaker 1: long nice relationship. Uh yeah, yeah, it isn't all sweetness 1120 01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,880 Speaker 1: in roses, but um, you know, it's kind of a weird, 1121 01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:27,280 Speaker 1: friendly but slightly adversarial relationship. But um, yeah, they've been 1122 01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,280 Speaker 1: good to me. Simon Schuster has been a really good 1123 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:34,760 Speaker 1: outfit and um, I mean they've made me a good 1124 01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:42,880 Speaker 1: living in my in my agent Pamela Maltics too. Do 1125 01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,760 Speaker 1: you wanna see any kind of like do you have 1126 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,640 Speaker 1: any kind of little stump speech plug you'd like to 1127 01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:53,800 Speaker 1: give for your new book? Yeah? I would like to 1128 01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:59,080 Speaker 1: give one go ahead. I think that I want to 1129 01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:00,840 Speaker 1: say if you like the ish, but I think it's 1130 01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:05,519 Speaker 1: like if you'd like to fish laugh, if you like 1131 01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:11,640 Speaker 1: being alive on Earth. I think it's like worthwhile to 1132 01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:16,120 Speaker 1: check out um, John gear Rock's latest book, which is 1133 01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:18,759 Speaker 1: just like new, right fairly new. Yeah, just a spring 1134 01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:22,960 Speaker 1: a fly rod of your own and it is your 1135 01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:29,200 Speaker 1: or eighteenth or something like that. So once you talk 1136 01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:31,679 Speaker 1: into that book and dig it, you do not need 1137 01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:36,200 Speaker 1: to worry about running out of more books for a while. Yeah, 1138 01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:40,280 Speaker 1: they're all still in print. Thank god. Thank you very 1139 01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:43,880 Speaker 1: much for joining us on the show. Happy to do it.