1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: Canada's wildfire crisis remains critical. About nine hundred wildfires are 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 2: currently burning in Canada and more than nine million acres 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: of land have been burned. The crisis has spilled across 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: the border, sending dangerous smoke that has turned the skies 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 2: over cities like New York, Chicago, and DC into a 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: toxic haze. Smoke from wildfires carries noxious gases and particulate 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 2: matter that can trigger severe respiratory and heart problems in 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: people living thousands of miles away. Last week, more than 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: one hundred million Americans were under air quality alerts. It's 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: just gotten so, so so bad. 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: It's affecting everybody's physical activity, no doubt. 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 3: It's terrible. 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 4: And I feel like you go inside you because's still 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 4: smell it. 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: In Post this weekend, President Trump called Canada's handling of 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 2: the wildfires willful negligence and said the cost of the 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: pollution should be added to tariffs on that country. My 19 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: guest is Columbia Law School professor Michael Gerard, an expert 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: in environmental law and director of the Saban Center for 21 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: Climate Change Law. How much of a danger do the 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: Canadian wildfires pose. 23 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: These Canadian wildfires are enormous. They're spreading unhealthy air throughout 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: North America, and we know that this wildfire smoke causes 25 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: all kinds of negative health effects. So this is a 26 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: very serious event. 27 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: The number of wildfires in both Canada and the United 28 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 2: States seems to be growing every year. Is that because 29 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: of climate change? 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: Yes, they are sparks, mostly by lightning, but climate change 31 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: is making them much worse. When you have extreme heat conditions, 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: which is what we've been having, it dries out the 33 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: trees and the other vegetation and when the lightning hits, 34 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: it causes a major fire. So we've always had wildfires, 35 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: but they're much worse and the smoke conditions are now 36 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: much worse than they had been in the past. 37 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: This situation with smoke crossing borders, that's not just limited 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 2: to Canada and the US is it's a global thing. 39 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: It's right. This has happened for a long time all 40 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: over the world. There have been efforts to address it legally, 41 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: but there really isn't anything effective that the law can 42 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: do in terms of imposing liability over this kind of smoke. 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: If it were coming from a discrete factory or something 44 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 1: that could be a different story. But these wildfires coming 45 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: from immense areas, there's not really a legal remedy. 46 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: Would the wildfires be considered a natural disaster like an earthquake. 47 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: Yes, like an earthquaker, a volcano, or something like that. 48 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: And a country is not liable for a natural disaster 49 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: that happens within its borders that causes harm in other countries. 50 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: There are other things that countries are doing that there 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: is increasing these wild most notably greenhouse gas emissions, but 52 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: we don't have an effective legal remedy for this kind 53 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: of thing. 54 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: Over the weekend, President Trump expressed criticism of Canada's handling 55 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: of the wildfires, calling it willful negligence. We're holding Canada 56 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 2: responsible for the fact that they're not properly maintaining their 57 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: forests and brushed therein and the United States is being 58 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: unnecessarily invaded by filthy, polluted, and unhealthy air. 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: Well, it's true that a lot of bad air is 60 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: coming down from Canada, but that's the only part of 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: it that's true. The Canadian northern forests, the boreal forests, 62 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: are about seven times the size of Texas, so what 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: do you do? How do you control that it's naturally occurring? 64 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: As I say, it's lightning that sparks the wildfires. If 65 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: anybody wants to complain about the causes of the wildfires, 66 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: it's mostly climate change. And the US is responsible for 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: something like ten times the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: than Canada. So if anybody could sue anybody, it would 69 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: be Canada suing the US. But of course they can't either. 70 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,559 Speaker 2: Is that because there's no jurisdiction? 71 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: That's right? The International Court of Justice in the Hague 72 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: can adjudicate disputes between countries that have consented to that 73 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: kind of jurisdiction. The US has not consented to the 74 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: jurisdiction of the ICG for this kind of case. Even 75 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: if it had, what would the remedy be. It's not 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: as if Canada can go in with ten million airplanes 77 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: and put out the wildfires. There really isn't an effective 78 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: remedy for that. 79 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: Trump says he's going to increase the tariffs. I mean, 80 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: that is something I guess he can do, right. 81 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: Well, they're actually a legal dispute about that, whether he 82 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: has the authority to increase the tariffs, but he can 83 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: try and it may not succeed in courts. But what 84 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: does it do to help the wildfire situation? It does nothing. 85 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: I guess. It's like a tit for tat. We'll get 86 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: some money from you, you know, just recompense, I guess. 87 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: But you know, the wind goes in both directions. Sometimes 88 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: they smoke from the US coast north and so it 89 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: is tit for tat and it could start going in 90 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: the other direction. 91 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: Singapore has a law in the books. 92 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: Right in Southeast Asia, there's a great deal of wildfire 93 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: smoke coming primarily from agricultural burning in Indonesia and Malaysia. 94 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: So Singapore is one of the places that especially badly 95 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: hurt by that. Sometimes they have to shut down their airports, 96 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: close their schools. There is a regional agreement in Southeast 97 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: Asia to try to deal with this, but it hasn't 98 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: accomplished much. The one thing that has happened is that 99 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: Singapore passed a law saying that any Singaporean companies that 100 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: engage in this kind of burning in other countries can 101 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: be libel. So there's a big pulp and paper company 102 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: based in Singapore that is engaged in this kind of 103 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: burning in Indonesia, and Singapore has taken some actions against 104 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: that company, but it's a very, very small and limited 105 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: kind of action. 106 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: Let's say there's a business that's been damaged in some 107 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: way because of the wildfire smoke. For example, some camps 108 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: have experienced declining numbers. Can they sue Canada in a 109 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: Canadian court. 110 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: Canada and other countries have sovereign immunity for most kinds 111 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: of liability unless they have specifically waived their immunity for 112 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: this kind of case, and I don't believe that Canada 113 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: has waived its immunity here. When you do have a 114 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: waiver sovereign immunity, it's usually because the country has been negligent, 115 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: or somebody gets hit by a postal truck they consue 116 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: the postal service. But this is not the kind of 117 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: thing that results from negligence of the kind that typically 118 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: invokes the waiver of sovereign immunity. 119 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: So we have an agreement with Canada, the Canadian United 120 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: States Air Quality Agreement of nineteen ninety one. What's that about. 121 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: Does it have anything to do with what's happening now? 122 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: Well, it provides that the two countries can reach agreements 123 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: on specific kinds of air pollutants and what they're going 124 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: to do about it. So there's now a specific agreement 125 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: on sulfur dioxide, which causes acid rain. There's an agreement 126 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: on mercury. So when there is an agreement on specific substances, 127 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: then the country can be legally obligated to take certain 128 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: actions to reduce those kinds of pollutants. But there's no 129 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: such agreement between the United States and Canada covering wildfire smoke. Someday, 130 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: theoretically they could do that. They can negotiate that, but 131 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: that hasn't happened. 132 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: Most countries with this cross border pollution, how do they 133 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: handle it? Do they work together? Do they make agreements. 134 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: If it's a controllable kind of pollutant, they can reach 135 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: agreements on how to handle it. So with acid rain, 136 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: the United States now has a law to reduce the 137 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: use of high sulfur coal to generate electricity with mercury 138 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: that there are other specific things that could be done, 139 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: But with wildfires, particularly the kind of wildfires that are 140 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: coming down from Canada, there isn't. There are certain forests 141 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: management things that could be done in different kinds of 142 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: forests to try to reduce the wildfires on that neither 143 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: the United States nor Canada have done a terrific job. 144 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: But these wildfires are such a magnitude that international agreements 145 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: can have only a very very limited impact. 146 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: In the US, is that because the administration has dismantled 147 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,559 Speaker 2: key agencies in fields such as climate and conservation work 148 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: through mass firings of federal workers. 149 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: One of the things that can be done in certain 150 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: kinds of forests is called prescribed burning. You go in 151 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: and you start small fires that clear away the underbrush 152 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: and so forth, so that other fires can't get so large. 153 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: The United States for many years had a policy that 154 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: largely inhibited prescribe burning, and that's one of the reasons 155 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: some of the fires in the Pacific Northwest have been 156 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: so bad. Very recently, there was some prescribed fires planned 157 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: for Minnesota that would have reduced fires there. Under Elon 158 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: Musk's doge, they greatly cut back on that. They did 159 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: not engage in the prescribed burning, and so the fires 160 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: in Minnesota seem to be much worse than they might 161 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: have been otherwise. 162 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: Looking toward the future, does it seem as if the 163 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: wildfire situation may get worse in both Canada and the US. 164 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: Yes, it'll clearly get worse as the planet gets hotter 165 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: and you have worse fires. It's no question that the 166 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: wildfire situation and the smoke situation will get worse. Clearly, 167 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: the governments can act to help protect their citizens, have 168 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: better early warning systems, have clean air rooms that are 169 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: provided for people to don't have air conditioning, and so 170 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: they provide masks. There are a number of things that 171 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: can be done to help protect people from the wildfire smoke, 172 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: but only a very limited amount could be done to 173 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: reduce the smoke itself over the short and medium term. 174 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: Over the long term, we need massive reductions in green 175 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: ass gas emissions, which is mostly involving massive reductions in 176 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: this fossil fuels, but it takes a very long time 177 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: for that to have a positive impact on wildfires. 178 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: I mean, the Trump administration is trying to advance fossil 179 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: fuel development, right of course. 180 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: They're moving in exactly the opposite direction of where we 181 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: need to be. Oh, they're all about trying to maximize 182 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: both the demand for and the supply of fossil fuels. 183 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: They're denying that climate change is a serious problem. They're 184 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: trying to wipe out all US policies to address climate chancheck. 185 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 2: Can you get insurance for smoke damage? 186 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: There's actually some dispute about that about whether conventional insurance 187 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: policies cover smoke damage. You could certainly buy a policy 188 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: that has a smoke writer, but that's an exception rather 189 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: than the rule. 190 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: Biden tried to leave an environmental legacy, and has Trump 191 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: undone it already. You know, there have been a lot 192 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: of areas that he's tried to roll back what Biden did. 193 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: Trump is certainly working hard to undo biden environmental legislation 194 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: and his other legacy. Now, sometimes the courts have stood 195 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: in the way. There are lots of litigation pending. In 196 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: some cases what Trump has tried to do has been halted, 197 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: but in other cases it's gone forward. I would say 198 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: that the action that has had the most serious effect 199 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: is the rullback on the motor vehicle standards. Transportation is 200 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: the largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States. 201 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: The Biden administration worked very hard to clean up both 202 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: the passenger cars and the heavy duty vehicles like trucks 203 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: and buses, and to move toward electric vehicles, which are 204 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: ultimately the way we need to go, and Trump has 205 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: greatly cut back on that has damaged the US electric 206 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: vehicle industry, greatly helped the Chinese electric vehicle industry since 207 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: they're making terrific evs that are very inexpensive, but you 208 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: can't buy in the US. Trump has also slowed down 209 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: or stopped the closure of a lot of coal fired 210 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: power plants, which in other major source of greenhouse gass 211 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: admission in the United States. So he's done a lot 212 00:11:59,040 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: of damage. 213 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 2: And he speaks out against wind and solar power every 214 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: chance he gets. 215 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: At a time when he's encouraging data centers, which are 216 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: greatly increasing the demand for electricity, he's trying to wipe 217 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: out the principal new source of electricity, which is wind 218 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: and solar. It's completely irrational. 219 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining me. That's Columbia Law School 220 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: professor Michael Girard Coming up next. Trump's lawsuits against the 221 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: media and banks. This is Bloomberg. President Donald Trump is 222 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 2: suing the Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, the BBC, JP, 223 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 2: Morgan Chase, and Capital One each for between five and 224 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: fifteen billion dollars. And there have been some high stakes 225 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: hearings in Florida after major setbacks in a few of 226 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 2: the cases. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson, 227 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: who has been following all these cases. Eric, Before we 228 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: get to the cases where Trump is suing, let's talk 229 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: about the civil cases where he law and verdicts were 230 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 2: returned against him, and those involve writer Egene Carroll tell 231 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: us about the huge verdict in her defamation case against Trump. 232 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 4: A big verdict that she won against Trump. 233 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 3: Eighty three point three million dollars is what the jury 234 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 3: put the damages at. Of course, Trump appealed, it was 235 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 3: upheld on appeal, and he's expected to very soon ask 236 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court to hear the case. Of course, unclear 237 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: if the Justices will take it, but he is. 238 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 4: Going to ask. 239 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: And of course his other case with Eagen Carroll, the 240 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 3: five million dollar sexual abuse civil case that she also 241 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: won against Trump. Trump also appealed that and the Supreme 242 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 3: Courts declined to hear his appeal, and the President has 243 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: asked the justices to reconsider that decision, a pretty remarkable 244 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 3: request that they have not responded to yet. 245 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 2: What is his claim in the defamation case, What might 246 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: the issue be that he takes to the Supreme Court? 247 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 3: So Trump argues that at the trial, the jury heard 248 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: improper evidence that should not have been in the trial, 249 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 3: specifically the testimony and allegations of two other women who 250 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 3: had accused Trump of sexual assaults years ago, and the 251 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 3: so called Access Hollywood tape in which Trump is on 252 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 3: a hot mic speaking crudely about women and being able 253 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: to grab the genitals of women without consent if you're 254 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: a star, that sort of thing. Trump argues that was 255 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: inappropriate to have in the case. 256 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: So let's turn now to the cases where Trump is 257 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: suing over defamation. The ten billion dollar lawsuit against the 258 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal. 259 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: He's alleging that the Wall Street Journal defamed him with 260 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 3: an article related to Jeffrey Epstein, specifically this article about 261 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: Trump allegedly sending a birthday note to Epstein for his 262 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 3: fiftieth birthday yars ago that contained a personal note to 263 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 3: Epstein that was sort of typed out within a hand 264 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: drawn shape of a woman and with Trump's signature forming 265 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 3: the pubic region of the drawing. So this was a 266 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 3: Wall Street Journal story that said that this was from Trump. 267 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,119 Speaker 3: Trump denied that and filed this lawsuit. 268 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: I mean, there was a dismissal of the suit. Why 269 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: did the judge dismiss the complaint? 270 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 4: Right? 271 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 3: So, the first version of the complaint was dismissed because 272 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: it did not have enough details in the complaint backing 273 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 3: a so called actual malice, which is a higher standard 274 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: for public figures like Trump to file defamation lawsuits. 275 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 4: They have to show. 276 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 3: They have to show that the Wall Street Journal in 277 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 3: this case knew that what it was reporting was false 278 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 3: or had a reckless disregard for the truth, and. 279 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 4: That's actual malice. 280 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 3: The judge dismissed the suit, granted the journal's motion to 281 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 3: dismiss it, saying that there wasn't enough detail in there 282 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 3: to prove actual malice. But the judge dismissed it without 283 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 3: prejudice and said that Trump could refile a new version 284 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 3: if he wanted to try again, which he did. The 285 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 3: journal has moved to dismiss that version as well, and 286 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 3: there's actually a hearing on that motion to dismiss on 287 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 3: August fifth in Miami. 288 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: As we said, it's a very high bar to prove 289 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: actual malice. Did Trump in the complaint in the new 290 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: complaint make a case for actual malice? 291 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 3: I mean, that's really what the hearing is going to 292 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 3: be about what the judge is going to have to decide. 293 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 4: All I can say is that in the motion. 294 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 3: To dismiss the second complaint, the amended complaint, the journal 295 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: said that there was no new detail backing up actual 296 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: malice and said the new complaint suffered from all the 297 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 3: same problems that what Trump was saying in it was 298 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: not really factual, that it was just including more details 299 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 3: about how the journal purportedly did not support its story sufficiently, 300 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 3: did not give enough weight to Trump's denial that he 301 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: wrote that note, that he had signed it, and that 302 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 3: you know, the headline in other parts of the story, 303 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 3: you know, explicitly said that it was Trump's note to Epstein, 304 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 3: when they allegedly did not back that up in the story. 305 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: We should say that truth is a defense and didn't 306 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: A lot of media outlets describe that note as being 307 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 2: from Trump. 308 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 3: Well, I think the key here on the falsity angle 309 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: is that the House Democrats released this actual letter. It 310 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: came in as part of their Epstein investigation. That Epstein 311 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 3: estate handed over a lot of you know, stuff of 312 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: Epstein's and including a big book that compiled all of 313 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: these birthday notes from other people for Epstein's fiftieth birthday. 314 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: So that's part of the record that was handed over 315 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 3: to Congress, and the journal argues that, you know, that proves. 316 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 4: That it was true, and Trump doesn't see that. 317 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: Land We'll see if the journal gets a dismissal, and 318 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: if the dismissal is with pread. So now he's also suing, surprise, surprise, 319 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: the New York Times for fifteen billion, right. 320 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 3: And that this complaint alleges defamation from several articles and 321 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 3: also a book written by a Time reporter called Lucky Loser, 322 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: And generally, the complaint alleges that the New York Times 323 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 3: just had a policy of treating him unfairly in their stories, 324 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 3: that the articles and book demeaned his success as the 325 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 3: businessman and in various ways suggested that he hadn't earned 326 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 3: his fortune or fame, that it was just sort of 327 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 3: handed to him. This case, you might recall, it was 328 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 3: not dismissed. It was basically thrown out of court a 329 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 3: few days after it was filed by a judge who 330 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 3: said that it it violated court ruled by containing way 331 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 3: too much detail about Trump's fame and fortune and his 332 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 3: rise in politics and other details that the judge said 333 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 3: it was completely irrelevant to the lawsuit such that it 334 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 3: violated rules, and Trump's lawyer had to refile a version 335 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: that was half as long. He was given a page limit. 336 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 3: And The Times has moved to dismiss it. And it's 337 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 3: the same general arguments as the Wall Street Journal cases. 338 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 3: They say that their reporting is accurate, they stand by it, 339 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,479 Speaker 3: and that Trump hasn't properly alleged actual malice. And so 340 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 3: this was a case that they just had a hearing 341 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: on the motion to dismiss last week in Tampa, Florida 342 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 3: before a federal judge who did not give any hint 343 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 3: one way or the other how he was thinking during 344 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: that hearing and reserve judgment, and we're expecting a decision 345 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: on that at any time. 346 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: That's unusual. Usually there's a little bit of a hint, okay. 347 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 2: And he's also suing the BBC for ten billion dollars. 348 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: Yes, this is over that edit of Trump's so called 349 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 3: Stop the Steel speech at that Stop the Steel Speech 350 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 3: rally before the January sixth attack on the Capitol. In 351 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 3: late twenty twenty four, the BBC did a panorama documentary 352 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 3: about Trump's supporters and how he continues to keep support 353 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: despite his various legal issues and controversial incidents like January sixth, 354 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 3: and in that documentary, they spliced together two different parts 355 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 3: of his speech into a twelve second clip that made 356 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 3: it seem like he had made a direct call for violence. 357 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 3: And that's actually something that the BBC chairman apologized for. 358 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: He issued an apology trying to I think avoid this 359 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 3: lawsuit being filed because Trump had threatened to sue. The 360 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 3: apology was issued, but they stood by their argument that 361 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 3: they hadn't defamed him. 362 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 4: So Trump did file the suits, and it's a really 363 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 4: unusual case. 364 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: Frankly, it's going in some different directions than the typical 365 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: defamation case would at this point, and namely because the 366 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: BBC has decided to issue dozens of subpoenas to members 367 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 3: of Trump's inner circle, former cabinet members, federal agency is 368 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: trying to build a picture of Trump's communications before leading 369 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: up to that speech. Essentially, they're arguing on the matter 370 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 3: of falsity, you know, whether or not the implication of 371 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 3: the twelve second edited clip, notwithstanding the apology, whether it 372 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 3: might have actually been accurate, regardless that Trump really was 373 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 3: calling for or inciting violence that day, and so they 374 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 3: are arguing that the case really Trump has to prove 375 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 3: that he did not incite the January sixth riot in 376 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 3: order to win this defamation case. That's what the BBC 377 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: has said in court and in court filings. So that's 378 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 3: the point of all of these subpoenas. There was a 379 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 3: hearing on those subpoenas last week in Miami, and Trump 380 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 3: his lawyer fought very hard over a couple of hours 381 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 3: to get those subpoenas thrown out, not only to members 382 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 3: of the Inner Circle, but another subpoena to the Trump 383 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: organization for all kinds of financial documents, because the BBC 384 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: wants to see evidence that Trump really has suffered billions 385 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 3: of dollars in damage to his business and his brand 386 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: and his future financial prospects, as his complaint claims. So 387 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 3: the judge upheld those subpoenas, but she did indicate that 388 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 3: she might be narrowing those subpoenas to the Trump Inner 389 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 3: Circle because she said she doesn't want this case to 390 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 3: become a new trial over January sixth. So she's going 391 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 3: to issue a written order later where we'll see what 392 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 3: the subpoenas might be narrowed down to. But I feel 393 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 3: like it could be a long fight over these subpoenas 394 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 3: as well. Say, I don't think this is the last 395 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 3: ruling that we'll get on those, but it is an 396 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 3: interesting angle for the BBC's defense. 397 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, I mean Trump's wealth increased by almost 398 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: two billion dollars about since he's been. 399 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: President's lawyer did raise that fact in the court hearing, 400 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 3: saying that you know Trump, he had put the figure 401 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 3: out at one point four billion or so. And also 402 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 3: the fact that Trump won the election shortly after that 403 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 3: documentary went out, so they argue it didn't harm him anyway. 404 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 3: But it was interesting to see Trump's lawyer arguing this 405 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 3: particular point in court because, especially on the Trump Organization 406 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 3: financial documents subpoena, the judge made it clear that it 407 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 3: seemed reasonable to subpoena those records of Trump was claiming 408 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: so much harm, and Trump's lawyer essentially said that he 409 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 3: would be willing to correct the record and amend the lawsuits, 410 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 3: so basically file a new complaint in order to focus 411 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: the alleged financial damages only on Trump's reputation. The BBC 412 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: argues that the Trump Org and Trump's reputation are one 413 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 3: and the same, but at any rate, it was a 414 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 3: magistrate judge who isn't the official judge overseeing this case, 415 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: and she said that she wouldn't allow Trump to amend 416 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: the complaint at this point. He'd have to go back 417 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: to the main judge overseeing the case and requests permission 418 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 3: to do that, which would be remarkable to have to 419 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 3: walk back a complaint like that. 420 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 4: That request hasn't been made yet. 421 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: It is an interesting lawsuit to me, the most interesting 422 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 2: of the three so far. And Eric, there have been 423 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: some defamation lawsuits where the defendants have settled with Trump, right. 424 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: With ABC and CBS, you know, after the election or 425 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 3: after he took office. 426 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 4: Each of those settled for about. 427 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 3: Fifteen sixteen million dollars, so I mean, a lot less 428 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: money than we're talking about in these other cases. But 429 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 3: you know, there were a lot of companies that settled 430 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 3: with Trump around that time. And you know there's long 431 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 3: running cases involving Twitter now x Facebook, metas Facebook, Google's YouTube. 432 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 3: You know that he had sued over his accounts being 433 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 3: frozen or canceled after January sixth, that sort of thing, 434 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 3: and all of those settled. 435 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: We should just take note of the timing of those settlements. 436 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: Stay with me, Eric. Coming up next on the Bloomberg 437 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: Law Show, we'll take a look at Trump's suits against 438 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 2: two banks for d banking. I'm June Grosso and this 439 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: is Bloomberg. We're taking a look at the status of 440 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 2: President Donald Trump's lawsuits against three media companies and two 441 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: banks each for between five and fifteen billion dollars. I've 442 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 2: been talking to Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson. Eric, let's 443 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: turn to the suit that's gotten the most attention, I think, 444 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: and that's Trump versus the IRS. That one point eight 445 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 2: billion dollar so called Anti Weaponization fund was the subject 446 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 2: of much questioning during the confirmation hearings of Todd blanche 447 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 2: for Attorney General. He testified the fund is not going forward, 448 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: but Trump talks about it positively. Nonetheless, it was settled. 449 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 3: It's worth noting that Trump filed this ten billion dollar 450 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 3: lawsuits to get ten billion dollars four of the leak 451 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: of his tax information on authorized leak of his tax 452 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 3: information to the press by an IRS contractor in twenty nineteen. 453 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 3: The contractor, who, by the way, pleaded guilty and was 454 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: sentenced to five years in prison. So the case didn't 455 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 3: really achieve what the stated purpose of the case was 456 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 3: to achieve, which is to get ten billion dollars. Instead, 457 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 3: they settled it, as you said, for a one point 458 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 3: eight billion dollar anti weaponization fund, which everyone was complaining 459 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: about because it appeared likely to benefit Trump supporters and 460 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 3: even January sixth riders. So as you said, that got scrapped. 461 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 3: There was a bipartisan outcry. But a day after that settlement, 462 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 3: there was a new settlement was also announced that gave 463 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 3: Trump and his family and business entities a broad release 464 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: from audits over past tax information so that there wouldn't 465 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 3: be any future actions brought over past tax auds. So 466 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 3: it was pretty remarkable and they've kept that in place 467 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: for now, so that is still an active part of 468 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 3: the settlement. But the judge who oversaw the IRS case 469 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 3: at the urging of a group of dozens of former 470 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 3: federal judges, looked back into the case and how her 471 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 3: court was used to achieve this settlements and decided that 472 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 3: Trump had attempted to manipulate the court by filing a 473 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: lawsuit in which he controlled not only his side, but 474 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 3: the other side as the president overseeing the IRS and 475 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 3: the US Treasury, which was also defendant. So she said 476 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 3: that that was wholly inappropriate, and she issued an order 477 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: barring Trump or the administration from ever citing that settlement 478 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 3: that audit immunity settlement in any sort of proceeding, effectively 479 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 3: making it useless. So we don't know if the government 480 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 3: or Trump are going to appeal that. It's just been 481 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: sitting there since it was issued. Obviously Trump that's something 482 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 3: that he would be likely to appeal, but we don't 483 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 3: know that for sure yet. 484 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe he's waiting until the Blanche nomination gets out 485 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 2: of committee. So now pursuing JP Morgan for only five 486 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: billion dollars the lowest sum he's suing for, I think. 487 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, this is a debanking lawsuit saying that JP 488 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 3: Morgan closed his personal accounts out of political animus toward 489 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 3: him as an anti conservative discrimination. So it wasn't long 490 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 3: after January sixth, and after Trump left office that this occurred. 491 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 3: So we're at a pretty early stage in that case. Honestly, 492 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 3: they're still waiting for a ruling on the Bank's request 493 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 3: to move the case from federal court in Florida to 494 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 3: Federal Court in Manhattan, where they say it should be. 495 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 4: The case has to go. 496 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 3: Under their customer agreements, but Trump is arguing against that, 497 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 3: wants to keep it in Florida and also wants to 498 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 3: move it back to state court from federal court where 499 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 3: Chase moved it right after it was filed. So we've 500 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 3: got this whole argument going over venue. Part of it 501 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 3: has to do with whether Jamie Diamond, the CEO, who's 502 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 3: also a defendant, would be part of the case. So 503 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 3: it's still very early days on that one, and we're 504 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: just waiting for this ruling on the venue. 505 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: The Trump organization is suing Capital One? Is that also debanking? 506 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 3: That is it's the same type of lawsuit that we 507 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: just discussed, except it's filed by Trump Org instead of Trump. 508 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: Capital One canceled hundreds of Trump Organization accounts I think 509 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 3: around March twenty twenty one, so it's very similar, very 510 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 3: similar allegations. That's a lawsuit that was also dismissed by 511 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 3: actually a Trump appointed judge, but then he allowed Trump 512 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 3: Org to actually do discovery into Capital One and then 513 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 3: file an amended complaint, which Capital One was not too 514 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: pleased about, but they went along with that and had 515 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 3: been engaging in discovery for months now, and that allowed 516 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 3: Trump to file an amended complaint. I wish I could 517 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 3: tell you what was different about it or what they 518 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 3: found in their discovery, but it's just pages and pages 519 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: and pages of redactions in the amended complaint. Some pages 520 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: don't have anything viewable on them real. So I think 521 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 3: that those redactions might get lifted after some negotiations. But 522 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever seen that quite before. 523 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: But a lot of reactions. 524 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 525 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 3: It does suggest though that maybe trump Borg found something 526 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 3: interesting to put in their complaint to back their assertion 527 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 3: that Capital One closed the accounts for improper political reasons. 528 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: So we'll have to wait and see, because that was 529 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 3: the reason that the judge dismissed it, so that there 530 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: just wasn't enough in the complaint to back this assertion 531 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: that they were closed the accounts were closed for out 532 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 3: of political bias. 533 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: So one of Trump's lawyers has actually been referred to 534 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: the Florida. 535 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 3: Bar Aljandro Brito is Trump's main personal lawyer in all 536 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: of these cases and also in the one case by 537 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 3: Trump Org and in the I R S case that 538 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: ruling that said that the I R S case was 539 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 3: an abuse of the court. That is the ruling in 540 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: which Brito was referred to the Florida bar for potential 541 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 3: disciplinary action. Nothing's happened on that yet, and Brito hasn't 542 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 3: commented on it either. 543 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: Have we gone through all the current suits? Oh no, no, no, 544 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: we haven't eric because coming back to New York from Florida. 545 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: So Trump is appealing the hush money conviction. 546 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: Yes, that has been going on for a while. We're 547 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 3: expecting soon that the New York District Attorney, Alvin brag 548 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 3: will file his brief in that appeal arguing why the 549 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 3: verdict should be upheld. That's in the New York State 550 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 3: Court appeal track. But they're also trying to get the 551 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 3: federal court to throw it out, arguing again that the 552 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 3: case should have been in federal court and that the 553 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 3: evidence at trial was not appropriate because the judge allegedly 554 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: did not fully consider the implications of the Supreme Court's 555 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 3: immunity ruling for Trump. That some of the things that 556 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 3: came up in the hush money trial should not have 557 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 3: been presented to the jurors because it was related to 558 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 3: Trump's presidential activities or conversations. 559 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 4: So that is something that we're waiting on a decision for. 560 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 2: And these cases are going to be around for a 561 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: long long time, because I mean, is there ever a 562 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 2: case where he doesn't take an appeal. He seems to 563 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: always appeal to the state appellate courts or the federal 564 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: appellate courts, and then, as we've discussed, he's gone to 565 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court as well. 566 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 3: I think Trump's legal team has strongly indicated that they 567 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 3: don't consider any verdict or ruling in any case to 568 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 3: be final until every possible peel route has been exhausted. 569 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 3: So I think even all these defamation cases, you know, 570 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 3: if these complaints are dismissed, we can expect pretty drawn 571 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 3: out appeals on that. And actually, as we were discussing 572 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 3: actual malice, that standard that was set you know, in 573 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 3: the landmark New York Times versus Sullivan. 574 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 4: It's a big free speech case. 575 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 3: As I said, that, that's set a higher standard for 576 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 3: public figures to file defamation lawsuits, with the idea being that, 577 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 3: you know, the press needs to be free to look 578 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 3: into these public figures to do their jobs and not 579 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 3: be afraid of being bogged down by defamation lawsuits, you know, 580 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 3: to be chilled by the prospect of that. So that's 581 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 3: a standard that I think, you know, Trump's side and 582 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 3: plenty of others are hoping maybe the Supreme Court will 583 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: do away with and I suppose one of these cases 584 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 3: would be a way for them to try to make 585 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 3: that happen. 586 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: I think Justice Clarence Thomas is someone who has advocated 587 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: for that as well. Thanks so much, Eric for going 588 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: through all these suits with us. That's Bloomberg Legal Reporter 589 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: Eric Larson, and that's it for this edition of The 590 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest 591 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 2: legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcasts. You can find 592 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 2: them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot Bloomberg 593 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 2: dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and remember to tune 594 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten pm 595 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to 596 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 2: Bloomberg