1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast. 3 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wasn't Thal, and I'm Tracy Alloway. 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 4: Tracy. 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 2: Sometimes I read twentieth century Chinese history. 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 3: And uh, sometimes just a little. 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: No, there's here's something I don't understand. Like, you know, 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 2: I read about the ma out here, the done Cho 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: kang Era and. 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 4: All the various Kadras. 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: They are all like, oh, we're like guilty of like 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: have committed like a left deviationism or right deviationism or 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: all this stuff. And they're all really worried about whether 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 2: they're going to get expelled or something like that. And 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: I never like know what any of these words mean. Like, 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: I actually feel like I have no intuitive understanding of 17 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: how like elite level of Chinese communist party politics works. 18 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 2: And I think I probably should, given the sort of 19 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: like growing steaks and the growing awareness with which we 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: as Americas all have to be aware about how China works. 21 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 3: Wait, if you're reading lots of China history books, you 22 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: must know what self criticism is, right. 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 4: I know criticism, okay, but. 24 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: I don't know why they're like, oh, you engaged in revisionism, right, 25 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: you engage engaged in ultra leftism, or you engage in 26 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: ultra rightism. And I don't know what any of these 27 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: terms mean. 28 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 3: Right, Well, my experience of China is that sometimes the 29 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: rules are a little sketchy on purpose, right, so that 30 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: there isn't a clear definition, so that you can kind 31 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 3: of go after whoever you want. You know what I 32 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 3: do to learn about Chinese history? Tell me Chinese historical dramas. 33 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 3: I kind of love them. 34 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 4: Do you mean like plays or books? 35 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 3: No? No, I mean TV shows, TV probably the equivalent of 36 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 3: soap operas in the States. 37 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 4: Do you have a favorite? 38 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: Oh, I have one I'm watching right now. I'll tell 39 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: you afterwards. Okay, it's so good. But the reason I 40 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: bring it up is because relatively recently, there was a 41 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: historical that was all about Seshin Ping's father. 42 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 5: Oh. 43 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: I saw some screenshots from that. I think someone like 44 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: uploaded it all to you. 45 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 4: Have you watched it? 46 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 3: I haven't. I've been looking for it and I haven't 47 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 3: been able to find it. So if you find it 48 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: on YouTube, let me know. But the reason I bring 49 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: it up is because we're going to be speaking about 50 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: his life today to the author of one of his biographies, 51 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 3: the first English speaking biography, and the series itself got 52 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 3: panned when it came out. It was really funny, and 53 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 3: there are some quotes that said, oh, I think Chinese 54 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: youth today would rather watch stranger Things than learn about 55 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 3: the history of the CCP. So we're going to try 56 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 3: to make CCP history as interesting as stranger Things on 57 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 3: this podcast. 58 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: And we're also, I guess, going to make the case 59 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: maybe to American listeners and maybe some Chinese youth if 60 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: they're listening, that it's worth learning about it, right, like whether. 61 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 4: It's interesting or not. 62 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, it's the year twenty twenty five, do 63 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: we need to like revisit the history and Yanan or 64 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: the Northwest Provinces whatever all this stuff? Is this really important? 65 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 4: Anyway? 66 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: We obviously have the perfect guest we're going to be 67 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: speaking with, Joseph Triggan. He is a research fellow at 68 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: Stanford's Hoover Institution and an associate professor at American University, 69 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: and he is the author of a new book, The 70 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 2: Party's Interests Come First, The Life of Shi Jong Shun, 71 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: father of Hi Jinping. Joseph, thank you so much for 72 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 2: coming on od laws. 73 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 5: Thanks so much for having me. 74 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: Why are we interested? Or I guess you, why were you? 75 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: Why is anyone interested in worth spending time to learn 76 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: about the life of Hi juong Shun. 77 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 5: You know, I was listening to your conversation. I was 78 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 5: thinking about how one of the things that Shijinping is 79 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 5: trying to achieve is make the regime ammortal by having 80 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 5: people study party history. He believes that one of the 81 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 5: ways to keep the party vigilant and dedicated and at 82 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 5: one with the people is to learn from the legacy 83 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 5: of the revolutionary So what that history is teaching? That 84 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 5: history is moral education is at the very heart of 85 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 5: Xi Jinping's project. So that begs the question what was 86 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 5: that history? And I tried to tell it through the 87 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 5: prism of his own father with my book. 88 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: So one question I always wanted to ask a sort 89 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: of CCP expert, is why would anyone want to join 90 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 3: the party in the sort of nineteen forties, nineteen fifties, 91 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: nineteen seventies. I understand that hindsight is twenty twenty, but 92 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: looking back, first of all, no one knew how this 93 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 3: was all going to turn out. And secondly, it seems 94 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 3: like your life as a sort of minor party official 95 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: could be very, very tricky and very dangerous in some ways. 96 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 3: To Joe's point about things like self criticism and getting 97 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 3: in trouble for leftist deviations or rightist deviations or whatever, 98 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like a fun time. 99 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 5: So I think that breaking down your question a little 100 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 5: bit would be meaningful. What decade you joined the party 101 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 5: can tell you a lot about that person, and also 102 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 5: why you stay in the party can be very different 103 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 5: from why you joined in the first place, because often 104 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 5: you don't know what kind of organization it is, and 105 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 5: you don't know what's going to becoming. But I think 106 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 5: that at the heart of what you're getting at is 107 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 5: why would you join an organization that is so dangerous 108 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 5: to be a member of, either because you're fighting a 109 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 5: revolution against a vastly superior force or because there are 110 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 5: so many power struggles within that party. One of the 111 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 5: answers is that for these people, communism wasn't just a 112 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 5: way of understanding economics. It wasn't just about Marxist dialectics. 113 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 5: It was really a source of meaning and purpose in 114 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 5: their lives. It was joining an organization that for them 115 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 5: was a manifestation of a world historical inevitability, and it 116 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 5: was exciting. It gave them agency, it gave them a 117 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 5: sense that their lives mattered, and of course they were 118 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 5: often joining the party at moments when they felt that 119 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 5: the entire nation was at risk of falling apart because 120 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 5: of warlords and bands and Western and Japanese encroachments. 121 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: I forget what decade it is, but there's another reason 122 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: that even people today get excited about radical politics, and 123 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: that is sex and dating, and they think it'll make 124 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: them attractive to members of the opposite sex. You mentioned 125 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: that in your book that that was one of the 126 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: appeals for the very early communists. 127 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 5: So it's interesting how politics and the personal mix often 128 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 5: for members of the Chinese Communist Party. So there was 129 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 5: a political background, there was a social background. He was 130 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 5: born two years after the collapse of the Qing dynasty. 131 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 5: He saw of these battles between nationalists and bandits, nationalists 132 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 5: and communists, and it would have been even just visibly 133 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 5: striking for him to grow up in this area. Because 134 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 5: he grew up near Chian, which many of your listeners 135 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 5: must know as where the terra Cotta soldiers are from. 136 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 5: And that's because the first unified Chinese state was forged 137 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 5: near where he was born, and so he would have 138 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 5: seen just how far his country had fallen from these 139 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 5: amazing heights during the Tong dynasty. And so for him, 140 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 5: he didn't really understand the intricacies of the ideology. He 141 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 5: wasn't really attracted to Marxism from an intellectual perspective, but 142 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 5: as he and other people had written about or talked 143 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 5: about later, it was just kind of cool to be 144 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 5: more radical and more leftists because there was a sense 145 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 5: that the country really needed something drastic to be able 146 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 5: to find its feet. 147 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about how he rose 148 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 3: up through the party ranks in the sort of early days, 149 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,679 Speaker 3: because this is always a question. So, first of all, 150 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: the goal of the Communist Party, as you mentioned, is 151 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: sort of always changing in one way or another, or 152 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: certainly the way they execute on it seems to be 153 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 3: quite flexible, and so I'm very curious how a sort 154 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 3: of junior level politician or party member gathers influence within 155 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: the party. Basically what qualifies as a good job to 156 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: get them ahead. 157 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a great question. So one of the lemmas 158 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 5: that my book tries to explore is what does it 159 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 5: mean to be a deputy in a system that puts 160 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 5: so much focus on a strong leader and discipline. So 161 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 5: people might wonder, why would I read a book about 162 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 5: someone who wasn't the top leader of the Chinese Communist Party. 163 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 5: Isn't this just an organization where people do what they're told? 164 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 5: But actually it's so much more complicated than that, and 165 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 5: it's complicated for lots of interesting reasons. One is that 166 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 5: the top leader often will give a general sense of 167 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 5: what they want to achieve, but they won't say what 168 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 5: matters more and how to achieve it, and then so 169 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 5: the deputy has to figure it out. They have to 170 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 5: be loyal to what the top leader wants, but also 171 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 5: not screw everything up entirely. There's other competitors that might 172 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 5: not like you. You also have to be aware of the 173 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 5: fact that often the top leader will change their minds. 174 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 5: So all of these things are what members of the 175 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: party have to manage. And Shi Junction stands out for 176 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 5: his ability to keep winning over famous senior men within 177 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 5: the party. So he was not one of the oldest 178 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 5: of the founding generation, but he really impresses you with 179 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 5: his ability to find these big brothers over and over again, 180 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 5: who saw something in him that they admired. 181 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: One thing I really got from reading your book, and 182 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 2: you mentioned Shi Jinping himself as part of his own 183 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: goal is to have the younger generations learn more about 184 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: party history, hence the drama that Tracy mentioned. One thing 185 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: I really sort of deeply internalized reading your book is 186 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: how young the country is, how young the party is. 187 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: And I mean there is a sense in which Mao 188 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: is like Shijinping's uncle. I mean you say the word 189 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: big brother in terms of like Shi Jong Shun's ability 190 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: to find these sort of brother figures. It's still a 191 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: very close it's a very close family. These people were 192 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: like right there at the very beginning that Shujinping knew 193 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 2: and was growing up with. 194 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 5: Yeah. So one of the things in the book that 195 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 5: I think is really quite significant is how long these 196 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 5: people knew each other. Right, So the book begins in 197 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 5: the nineteen twenties, and she junctions a major figure through 198 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 5: the early nineteen nineties, and these names keep coming back 199 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 5: over and over and over again, and they knew each 200 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 5: other for so long, and the intricacies of these relationships 201 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 5: are really something. So in the West, We've often seen 202 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 5: this habit of dividing the party between good guys and 203 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 5: bad guys, reformers and conservatives, leftists and rightists. And one 204 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 5: of the things that emerges from my research is that 205 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 5: they were so subtle the way they interacted with each other. 206 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 5: So they were kind of frenemies in a way, right, 207 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 5: So they all had loyalty to the party, but the 208 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 5: way that the antagonism shifted, the way that the loyalty shifted, 209 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 5: was something that was very protean over these years. 210 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: Talk a little bit more about that, because I think 211 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: when people, certainly in the West, hear about the Chinese 212 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 3: Communist Party, they often think of factionalism and all these 213 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 3: cadres that are sort of in secret rooms forming different 214 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 3: groups with different goals. Did that actually happen? 215 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 5: So I'm a skeptic about how useful the idea of 216 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 5: factions can be for understanding the Chinese Communist Party. Now, 217 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 5: I don't want to go too far. It definitely matters 218 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 5: who you worked with, whether you work in the same organization, 219 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 5: that kind of thing. But the reason Leninist parties are 220 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 5: known as organizational weapons is because they are so leader 221 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 5: friendly and because there is such a taboo about any 222 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 5: concerted political action by certain groups. Now sometimes they approach 223 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 5: that level of coordination, but they have to be so 224 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 5: careful because as soon as the top leader identifies that, 225 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 5: then they're going to be in big trouble. But also, 226 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 5: people are people, so you can have more liberal views 227 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 5: on some issues, more conservative views on other issues. Just 228 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 5: because you worked with someone doesn't mean that you're going 229 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 5: to like them. So often the people who are as 230 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 5: I mentioned, these relationships are shaped by what happened decades previously. 231 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 5: They have long memories, and if you worked with someone 232 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 5: you didn't get along, that can be meaningful many many 233 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:32,479 Speaker 5: many years into the future too. 234 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: I mentioned this at the beginning, but I remember when 235 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: I read the recent biography from a few years ago 236 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: of Dounk Shopang, and then also a recent Joe and 237 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 2: Live biography. They're always like trying to read maus my 238 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: own right like they're on their like, oh, and are 239 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: we guilty of leftism or rightism or whatever? And I 240 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 2: can never really figure out do we take the correct line, 241 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: we dig the people's life whatever, what does leftism mean? 242 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: They're always getting accused of leftism. I thought they're all 243 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: leftists they're communists, But what is actual What did they 244 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: mean it when they said that someone was taking like 245 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: the leftist line and the CCP and that that was 246 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: bad in some way. 247 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 5: Good question. So when you look at Chinese texts when 248 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 5: they talk about leftism and rightism, leftism is always in 249 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 5: quotation marks right. So what is leftism in theory? Leftism 250 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 5: basically means that you're too ambitious, you're moving forward too quickly, 251 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 5: you don't recognize the objective conditions, and therefore you're making 252 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 5: a hash of things because you're trying to achieve what 253 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 5: is not possible at that particular time. Now, at the 254 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 5: same time, leftism is part of the part of what 255 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 5: makes the Chinese Communist Party because of this phenomenon known 256 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 5: as campaigns. Right, So what's a campaign? A campaign means 257 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 5: you get people to go too far, deliberately because you 258 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 5: need to get them to go too far, because the 259 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 5: whole point is to gin people up, to get them excited, 260 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 5: to inspire zeal. So you expect that things are going 261 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 5: to go too far. Now for these people who are 262 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 5: the deputy. Typically when they go too far and then 263 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 5: there's a rectification, they're not punished for it because there 264 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 5: was an always expectation that there was going to be 265 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 5: some mistakes, that you're going to break a few eggs. Right. Nevertheless, 266 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 5: because this was a system that took ideology so seriously, 267 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 5: when there were differences of opinion, often they weren't understood 268 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 5: as such. They were seen as manifestations of a deeper 269 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 5: political problem. And as you were alluding to in your introduction, 270 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 5: one of the reasons Mao and Dung were so powerful 271 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 5: is because they got to decide what was leftist. They 272 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 5: got to decide what was a line error. And so 273 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 5: often the reason we think that there are factions is 274 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 5: because the top leader decides after the fact to label 275 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 5: a bunch of people as a group and say that 276 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 5: they represented some kind of political view. But almost always 277 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 5: what really happened is that these people just simply weren't 278 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 5: in line with the chairman and they weren't guessing correctly 279 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 5: what he wanted, and they were punished for it, and 280 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 5: then they were given this label. 281 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 3: Why didn't Mauth just issue clearer instructions? 282 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, good question. Part of it was about the succession, right, 283 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 5: So Chinese top leaders always are thinking about what's going 284 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 5: to happen after they die, and they don't want their 285 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 5: model to disappear with them, and so they're testing their deputies. 286 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 5: They're trying to figure out whether their deputies can do 287 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 5: the right thing on their own, and so they don't 288 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 5: always want to be clear because they want to see 289 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 5: what you do. But also the top leaders change their 290 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 5: mind all the time. They're mercurial. They can watch a 291 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 5: situation and decide that things aren't going to well that 292 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 5: they wanted, and then they don't say that immediately to 293 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 5: see why other people are going to realize that on 294 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 5: their own. But also I think that by leaving some ambiguity, 295 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 5: they can see whether or not you are going to 296 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 5: use that space to do everything you can to remain 297 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 5: loyal to the top leader, or whether you're going to 298 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 5: show some of your own inclinations which you may or 299 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 5: may not like as the senior leader. 300 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: Let's talk about the trajectory of Shijong Chun's life a 301 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: little bit more. A big part of your book is 302 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: these fights over over history, and they're obsessed about like 303 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: getting the exact history of riot of Chinese and the 304 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: Northwest territories, and who is where when, et cetera, and 305 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: who is influential et cetera. Why was this so important, 306 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: these sort of fights over specific details of history, and 307 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: then how did that culminate ultimately in sixteen years in 308 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: which he was sort of extremely punished and banished and 309 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: basically cast out of the party and humiliated and all 310 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 2: the horrible things that happened during the revelation. 311 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 5: Two reasons, primarily, one is for a top leader, your 312 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 5: legitimation narrative is to say I was always on the 313 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 5: right side of the debate. And so when you make 314 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 5: the case for why everyone should listen to you, whether 315 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 5: or not your version of history is affirm has a 316 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 5: lot to do with whether or not you are seen 317 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 5: as someone who deserves to be the chairman. And the 318 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 5: second reason is that the party is a totalizing organization, right, 319 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 5: so your entire sense of self worth, your prestige, your status, 320 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 5: your sense of meaning is how the party characterizes your 321 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 5: contributions to the revolution and to the regime after it's established. 322 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 5: So history in that sense is absolutely existential for them. 323 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 5: And I think that also when it comes to, as 324 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 5: I said, this preoccupation with whether the regime will survive, 325 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 5: you need to win the hearts and minds of young 326 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 5: people by talking about the party as an organization that 327 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 5: went from one victory to another because it was the 328 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 5: only way of organizing society that can guarantee China's return 329 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 5: to its rightful place on the world stage. Right. So, 330 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 5: for all of these reasons, history is so important. And 331 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 5: so when you're purged from the leadership and you're doing 332 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 5: self criticisms, what are these self criticisms about. Well, it's 333 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 5: a reflection of your own personal history. So when Chi 334 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 5: Juncshin spent sixteen years in the political wilderness after he 335 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 5: was purged, what he was writing about was his past 336 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 5: over and over and over again and negotiating with the 337 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 5: top leadership just exactly how what he had done previously 338 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 5: was going to be officially evaluated. 339 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 3: You know, you mentioned the word frenemy earlier, and as 340 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: a former teenage girl, frenemies is something that is a 341 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 3: perennial interest to me. And when I think about famous 342 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 3: frenemies in the past, do you like the segue. 343 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 4: Too, Yeah, all right. 344 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 3: When I think about famous set frenemies in the past, 345 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 3: I kind of think about the Soviet Union and China 346 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: in the fifties and sixties. And one of the interesting 347 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 3: things about the elder she is that he was for 348 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 3: a while in charge of basically managing China's relationship with 349 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 3: Soviet experts at the time. What was that experience like 350 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 3: for him, How tricky was that to actually do, and 351 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: was it you us fault to him in later years 352 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 3: having had that experience. 353 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 5: So in nineteen fifty three, the most prominent slogan in 354 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 5: the People's Republic of China was the Soviet Union of 355 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 5: today is China's tomorrow. And in fact that also was 356 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 5: the year that Shijinping was born and his father, Hi 357 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 5: Juncshin was Minister of Propaganda. In subsequent years, when Hijungshin 358 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 5: was working for Joe and Lai at the State Council, 359 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 5: as you said, one of his tasks was to manage 360 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 5: the Soviet expert program, and for a period of time 361 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 5: the number one priority was to learn wholesale from the 362 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 5: Soviet Union. And it was rooted in this idea that 363 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 5: there was only one way of doing communism. But Maltadong 364 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 5: increasingly came to the view that something had gone deeply 365 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 5: wrong with the October Revolution, that the Soviet leaders were 366 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 5: engaging in revisionism. And I know you were chuckling about 367 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 5: this word earlier. You're always getting a cued what is 368 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 5: this communist jargon and revision isn't basically means you're not 369 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 5: really a true communist anymore, that you are not as 370 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 5: actually leftist as you need to be right, you're not 371 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 5: pushing forward, you're too scared to try to win new 372 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 5: victories for the revolutionary agenda. And so Shei Junction would 373 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 5: have witnessed this story. He would have witnessed how Malzudun 374 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 5: gradually came to the conclusion that the Chinese project was 375 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 5: going to be different. And he also would have seen 376 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 5: something else, which was how dangerous it was to talk 377 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 5: to people outside the Chinese Communist Party, especially foreigners, because 378 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 5: one of the accusations against him in nineteen sixty two, 379 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 5: other than as you said, that he was trying to 380 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 5: revise history, was that he was a spy for the 381 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 5: Soviet Union. So it would have been very frightening for 382 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 5: she Junction to manage relations with the Soviets. Right, So, 383 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 5: the first great purge of the People's Republic of China 384 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 5: was a man named Gaogong, and he was another northwesterner. 385 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 5: He had known Xi Jungshun for years, and Mao had 386 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 5: come to believe that exactly, and Mao came to believe 387 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 5: that Gay was a spy for the Soviet Union. In 388 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 5: nineteen fifty nine at the famous for Chinese historians Lushan Plenham, 389 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 5: when the Defense Minister Pung d' Huai made critical remarks 390 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 5: of the Great Leap Forward, he also, in Mao's mind, 391 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 5: only did that because of a special relationship with the 392 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 5: Soviet Union, and he saw some machinations there. And pungd' 393 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 5: huai was the commander on the Northwest Battlefield, and Hi 394 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 5: Jung Sshun was his right hand man. So U si 395 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 5: Jung Shin was basically a forrest gump for the two 396 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 5: first Great Purchase of the People's Republic of China, and 397 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 5: they both were seen by Mao as having had illicit 398 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 5: relations with the Soviet Union. And then he is purged 399 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty two as well. I'll say one other 400 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 5: thing about this which is quite remarkable. So the first 401 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 5: split that was really something that the Chinese and Soviets 402 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 5: had trouble managing, happened while she Junction was visiting the 403 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 5: Soviet Union. And what had happened was there was an 404 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 5: altercation on the border between China and India the first 405 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 5: one and several Indian soldiers were killed, and while Si 406 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 5: Juncshin was traveling, the Soviets put out a statement that 407 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 5: essentially took a neutral position even though the Soviet Union 408 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 5: and China were in a formal alliance, and the Chinese 409 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 5: were absolutely furious, and Shi Juncshun left Moscow early and 410 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 5: when Nikita Krushchev, the Soviet leader, visited China just a 411 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 5: few weeks later, Mao said to him, your statement made 412 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 5: the imperialists happy. And Mao's conclusion was, why aren't the Soviets, 413 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 5: Why don't they have our back, Why aren't they more supportive? 414 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 5: And his answer was that it wasn't that the Soviets 415 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 5: were pursuing their interests. We have our interests. It was 416 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 5: that they're not really communist anymore. They've gone revisionist. And actually, 417 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 5: to tie it again back to Si Junction, it contributed 418 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,959 Speaker 5: to Miles's preoccupation with this idea of class struggle, and 419 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 5: he wanted to figure out a way to make sure 420 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 5: class struggle never went away, and his crackdown on Chi 421 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 5: Junction in nineteen sixty two was related to his marinating 422 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 5: in this obsession with the importance of class struggle that 423 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 5: was partly inspired by what he saw as the degradation 424 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 5: of the revolutionary project in the Soviet Union. 425 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: So Shei Junction was purged and subject to sixteen years 426 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: of absolute torment. It's funny you characterize him. It's sort 427 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 2: of like the forest Gump of twentieth century China, because, 428 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 2: of course, later on in his career he was heavily 429 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 2: involved in Gwandal and the opening of Shenzhen and these 430 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,479 Speaker 2: special opportunity zones or special economic zones which people know 431 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 2: a lot about there, but he spent much of the 432 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: rest of his life essentially fearing the possibility. It seems 433 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: that my reading of your book that the ever present 434 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: risk of sliding back into cultural revolution type periods and 435 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: the Cultural Revolution per your book, there were many patterns 436 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: of it prior to it. It's sort of these purges 437 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 2: and campaigns that existed afterwards. I'm just curious in your view, 438 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: can the Party even today ever be inured against the 439 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: potential of reverting back into such a self destructive environment 440 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: such as that, or is that always going to be 441 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: endemic to the structure of the party that it could 442 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: trip into these sort of intense inward battles that are 443 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 2: so damaging. 444 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a very insightful question. One piece of evidence 445 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 5: to get at what you're driving at is to look 446 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 5: what she's in paying himself experience during the Cultural Revolution 447 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 5: and how he's talked about it. Xi Jinping said that 448 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 5: when the Cultural Revolution began, everyone believed in it, which 449 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 5: was true. So when it became clear that it was 450 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 5: a disaster, it was profoundly disillusioning. And Xi Jinping admitted 451 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,719 Speaker 5: that he too went through a period of doubt, but 452 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 5: that precisely because he went through this time of thinking 453 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 5: about why such a terrible thing could happen, but nevertheless 454 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 5: returned to the party's cause, meant that his dedication is 455 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 5: more unshakeable than anyone's, anyone else's, And the nineteen eighties. 456 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 5: In these interviews that I found that he gave, he 457 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 5: talks about how he saw the nineteen eighties as a 458 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 5: time when people should be even more loyal to the 459 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 5: party because now they could do something. Now the leftism 460 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 5: and the radicalism had gone away, so you could finally 461 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 5: work to bring China in the right direction. And in fact, 462 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 5: he said that the reason that that he didn't want 463 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 5: to make up for lost time and have fun and 464 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 5: make money. Was because he wanted to make sure that 465 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 5: another cultural revolution never happened. But it raises a question, right, 466 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 5: which is how do you stop that from happening? And 467 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 5: so some people who went through the same thing that 468 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 5: Sijin Ping did, they believe that China needed the rule 469 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 5: of law, it needed to prevent another strong man leader 470 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 5: from appearing. And Xi Jinping's answer was, you need to 471 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 5: have a party that's unconstrained. You need to have a 472 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 5: party that's so powerful that it can stop people who, 473 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 5: when are given the freedom to do so, take advantage 474 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 5: of it and use it to hurt people. And so 475 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 5: for Shijinping, a lot of people think that he's a 476 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 5: Maoist figure, that a lot of what he's doing has 477 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 5: elements that are reminiscent of the Cultural Revolution. And that's 478 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 5: certainly true, but as you said, a lot of what 479 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 5: we associate with the Cultural revolution has been part of 480 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 5: the party since the very beginning. And the question then 481 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 5: is so Sheijinping he wants to use struggle, goal, he 482 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 5: wants to use campaigns, but he also doesn't want another 483 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 5: cultural revolution. Well what does that mean? Well, he and 484 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 5: people around him have said that, well, we're not going 485 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 5: to do the tragedy of the cultural evolution. We're going 486 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 5: to avoid that kind of radicalism. We're also going to 487 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 5: recognize that we lost a sense of vigilance after Mau's death, 488 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 5: and we're going to find this happy medium. But what 489 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 5: is a happy medium in this sense? Right, Like, struggle 490 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 5: is not a legal concept. It's not a clear idea really, 491 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 5: so you can see how in theory that you would 492 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 5: get it just the right amount, but that in practice 493 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 5: it's very hard. And I think that's one of the 494 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 5: reasons why we're seeing China struggle to balance the economy 495 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 5: and security is because it's hard to do two things 496 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 5: at once. 497 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I always thought it was interesting that in modern 498 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 3: China there are a lot of portrayals domestically of the 499 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 3: Cultural Revolution, so things like historical dramas or in the 500 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 3: Three Body Problem. There's a very very long section on that, 501 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: and it kind of it's exactly what you're describing, which is, 502 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: to some extent, she Shinping wants people to know what 503 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 3: happened and to understand the danger of sliding back into 504 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 3: something like the cultural revolution. Just on that note, to 505 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 3: what extent do you think she Shin Ping actually draws 506 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 3: from his father's experience in terms of his own policy, 507 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 3: or are we sort of falling into the trap where 508 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 3: we think that all of Chinese politics has to be 509 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 3: dynastic and it's all about family members succeeding family members. 510 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: To what extent is that true? 511 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 5: So Shichhung Shin has a reputation as the best kind 512 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 5: of person that the party could produce, almost uniquely humane 513 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 5: liberal pro reform. And so when Xijinping came to power, 514 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 5: a lot of individuals who knew the family or knew 515 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 5: something about party history believed that he was going to 516 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 5: be like what their understanding of his father was. And 517 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 5: when he moved into direction that to disappointed them, and 518 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 5: in fact was quite a surprise for them. They were 519 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 5: so so disappointed, And one of the things that they 520 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 5: did was they negatively contrasted him with his father. One 521 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 5: dissident exiled intellectual in the United States said that Xi 522 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 5: Jinping is not the son of Hi Juncshun. He's the 523 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 5: grandson of mal Jitdong. So this politicized use of shi 524 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 5: junction against Chijenping, and I'm sure that Shei jen Ping 525 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 5: hates it, but then the question becomes, well, is Chijenping 526 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 5: inspired by father as a positive example or as a 527 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 5: negative example. Some people have said that well, Xi Jinping 528 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 5: saw that his father's liberal policies failed, and that's why 529 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 5: he's doing something completely different. You know, we can't say 530 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 5: for sure, but I can say a couple things. One 531 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 5: is that it's interesting. It's interesting that Sheijenping's very first 532 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 5: article published in People's Daily was about the relationship between 533 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 5: older generations in the party and younger generations, and he 534 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 5: said essentially that we need to respect them. We can 535 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 5: learn so much from them, but we would not respect 536 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 5: them if we did exactly what they did, and we 537 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 5: never innovate, right, We need to move along with the times. 538 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 5: And also I think that at heart, what he wants 539 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 5: to do is make sure that the regime survives, and 540 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 5: everything he's doing is for that purpose, which means that 541 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 5: he is essentially inheriting the big picture of what his 542 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 5: father wanted, which was to ensure that the party and 543 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 5: the party's interests could persist from one generation to another. 544 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 5: So is he doing certain things different from what his 545 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 5: father did? Yes? Is it a conscious rejection of his father? 546 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 5: I'm not so sure. I think maybe he would say 547 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 5: that the heart of what I'm doing is the same 548 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 5: as what my father did, but also we need to 549 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 5: change with the times, and it's a story of the 550 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 5: party constantly learning new things and needing to address new 551 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 5: objective conditions as they appear. And one last point on this, 552 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 5: Chijinpin says that the reason the Chinese Communist Party survived 553 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 5: when other communist parties did not is because it had 554 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 5: this capacity for change. That it was because the party 555 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 5: could cynicize Marxism and adapt it to national conditions, therefore 556 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 5: find a Chinese style of modernization. That they could find 557 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 5: this way of a non Western style of development. So 558 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 5: it's interesting how he plays with this dialectic between tradition 559 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 5: and innovation. But in that sense, they think his thinking 560 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 5: here is. 561 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 4: A little subtle tracy. 562 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: Have I mentioned I can't remember if I brought this up? 563 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: Have I mentioned too that I've recently read the book 564 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: Moby Dick? 565 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: Oh my god, Oh my god? 566 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 4: Have I mentioned that? 567 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 3: Listeners? Let me just tell you, whenever Joe reads a book, 568 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 3: he talks incessantly about it. So, yes, you have brought 569 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: up Moby Dick several times. 570 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: It's hard not to read the book about your book, 571 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: Joseph without thinking of the character Starbuck, isn't it. 572 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 4: No, I'm just kidding. 573 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: You said that yourself on Twitter, and I use this 574 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: as an excuse to torment Tracy with bringing up Moby Dick. 575 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: But you yourself made that connection. Huh. 576 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 5: So it's not a perfect analogy, right, because Starbuck is 577 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 5: the first mate and she Junction was sort of the 578 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 5: first mate to the first mate, right, so he's a 579 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 5: wrong further down than Starbuck. And also the book seems 580 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 5: to suggest that while Ahab is motivated by vengeance and 581 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 5: Starbuck is somebody who just wanted to make wants to 582 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 5: make money. Well, she Junction he was on board with 583 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 5: the revolutionary project, right, like he shared many of Mao's 584 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 5: views and Dung's views, so that we shouldn't essentialize the 585 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 5: difference between between She and Mao. And also that the quad, right, 586 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 5: the ship crashed, but the party has survived, right, the 587 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 5: party is still there. So those are the difference. But 588 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 5: at the same time, it is I think meaningful to 589 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 5: think about the similarities. Right. So Starbuck was the deputy, 590 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 5: the first mate to Ahab, and he knew better, but 591 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 5: he still allowed himself to be a victim, and by 592 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 5: doing that he doomed himself, he doomed the crew. And 593 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 5: even though he was someone who recognized that Ahab was 594 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 5: the kind of person who would strike the sun if 595 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 5: the sun insulted him, which really is a very Maoist 596 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 5: thing to say, right, Like Mao really kind of fetishized 597 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 5: this idea of struggle and fighting back and having a 598 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 5: strong personality, he still didn't really do anything about it. 599 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 5: And also, like She Junction, Starbuck isn't clearly a hero 600 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 5: are a villain, right he raises questions about the morality 601 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 5: of what he was doing as part of this particular system. 602 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 5: Starbucks also didn't really have legal recourse to removing a 603 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 5: have right. So there's this one moment where he thinks 604 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 5: about killing him, but he recognizes that that's a violation 605 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 5: of the law of the ship. And also, Starbuck is 606 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 5: similar to Sea Junction in the sense that when he 607 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 5: thinks that something is not going the way he thinks 608 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 5: is right, he remonstrates, but very carefully in a way 609 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 5: that he's almost not even really remonstrating because of just 610 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 5: how cautious he is. So and I'll say one final 611 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 5: thing about this right. So what's interesting about Moby Dick 612 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 5: is the whole crew kind of gets on board with 613 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 5: this crazy idea of hunting this whale, right, And it 614 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 5: kind of reminds me of this quote by Dunk shell 615 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 5: Ping about the Great Lea Forward, which is that we 616 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 5: all had the fever right, And it raises his questions like, 617 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 5: why would people be so loyal to this person who's 618 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 5: so strange and so eccentric. And I think it's because 619 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 5: this idea of the adventure and the thrill and mission 620 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 5: was something that spoke to something at the heart of 621 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 5: their lives. So maybe they're all just a few thoughts. Well, 622 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 5: you know, it's when you write a biography, you need 623 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 5: to talk about psychology and the fact that she Junction 624 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 5: and Xi Jinping went through these traumas can't be ignored 625 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,439 Speaker 5: and you need to talk about it and it needs 626 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 5: to be addressed. But psychology and history, psychology and politics 627 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 5: are different disciplines for a reason, which is that you 628 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 5: can't essentialize their behavior down to what they experienced his children, right, 629 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 5: So a lot of people thought that everything Stalin did 630 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 5: could be explained by the fact that he was beaten 631 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,439 Speaker 5: up when he was a young person right by his. 632 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this Stalin biography so much more than Knkin. 633 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 2: He has this great line He's like, oh, people say 634 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: that his father was abusive and drunk, and he's like, 635 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 2: who wasn't abusive and drunk in the early night and 636 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds of that area. So anyway, sorry, keep going, 637 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 2: but yes, that's a good point. 638 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,399 Speaker 5: You'll say. One other thing about this. 639 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 3: D H. 640 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 5: Lawrence wrote chapter in a book about Moby Dick, and 641 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 5: he talked about all this practicality in search of a 642 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 5: mad mad Chase. And that also really gets to something 643 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 5: at the heart of the Party that we've talked about, 644 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 5: which is during the Revolution, during the Great Leak forward, 645 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 5: during the Cultural Revolution, you see these goals that are 646 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 5: just utopian. And at the same time that doesn't mean 647 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 5: that the party, at sometimes even the same moment, sometimes 648 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 5: more than others, doesn't also have this very practical side, 649 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 5: very flexible side. And these two elements have coexisted from 650 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 5: the very beginning in ways that I think are meaningful 651 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 5: to dwell onto. 652 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 3: So one thing I'm always curious when it comes to 653 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 3: books like these very large historic projects is how you 654 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 3: actually go about gathering your research and what sources you're 655 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 3: looking at, and whether you're finding new things that potentially 656 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 3: people were unaware of before. And then just on that note, 657 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 3: what would you say is the biggest misconception that academics 658 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 3: or maybe people in the West in general tend to 659 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 3: have when it comes to understanding how the CCP actually works. 660 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, so when you do research on the Chinese Communist Party, 661 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 5: you can't just go to a couple of archives, collect 662 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 5: the material and write it up. You need to have 663 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 5: a different sense of sensibilities. You have to be sensitive 664 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 5: to the possibilities, not the limitations, and recognize that you're 665 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 5: going to have to collect a lot of different types 666 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 5: of evidence and making mosaic and you'll be able to 667 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 5: understand certain things better than others, but that in the 668 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 5: future people will find new things, and that it's an 669 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 5: ongoing project. There's never going to be a definitive version. 670 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 5: But nevertheless, there's enough that you can do to say 671 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 5: in the intgiram at least something meaningful, something to start 672 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 5: a conversation. And so, for example, a lot of internal documents, 673 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 5: a lot of archives have made their way to American 674 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 5: libraries and institutions in Hong Kong and Taiwan. People from 675 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 5: the mainland were able to publish histories outside of censorship, 676 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 5: but also document collections and memoirs. But you also need 677 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 5: to use the stuff that comes out of mainland China. 678 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 5: So there was a period where party history journals were 679 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 5: really pushing the envelope. But even the official stuff like 680 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 5: the chronologies and the official biographies, you can mind those 681 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 5: things for biographical details, but also you can put it 682 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 5: in the context of other material collected, and then suddenly 683 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 5: that evidence is meaningful to you in a way that 684 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 5: maybe even the compilers of it did not expect. And 685 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 5: also I just made a list of every time that 686 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 5: she jumption met with a foreigner and then tried to 687 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 5: either speak to that person or go to their archives. 688 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 5: I spoke to the Dalai Lama. I went to the 689 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 5: French Communist Party archives because she jumptioned went to France. 690 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 5: I went to the archives in Serbia because you went 691 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 5: to a big important congress in Yugoslavia when it still existed. 692 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 5: That kind of thing, and so you know, what are 693 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 5: the main misunderstandings. Well, one thing to say is that 694 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 5: this isn't always just a case of Westerners who don't 695 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 5: understand China getting it wrong for cultural reasons or whatever. 696 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 5: But people at the very heart of this system also 697 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 5: constantly got it wrong right And so, as I mentioned earlier, 698 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 5: these people who knew that she family were totally dumbfounded 699 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 5: by Xijinping when it became clear what kind of a 700 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 5: leader he was going to be. Right, and these were 701 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 5: not stupid people. These were people who had been around 702 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 5: the block over and over and over again. And the 703 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 5: reason these purges happened, the reason why someone like Hijo Mashin, 704 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 5: who was actually quite cautious and quite clever, why he 705 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 5: crashed on the shoals of power struggles is because he 706 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,720 Speaker 5: also didn't fully understand the repercussions of what he was doing. 707 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 5: So in that sense, we should keep in mind just 708 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 5: how hard it is to get the system right, not 709 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 5: just for people on the outside, but even for people 710 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 5: on the inside too. 711 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 2: That's a great ending, Joseph to regain fantastic book. Really 712 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 2: appreciate you coming on odd lots and chatting. 713 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 5: Really interesting conversation. Thanks so much for having me. 714 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 4: On, Tracy. 715 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 2: While we were recording that episode, Joseph mentioned the various 716 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 2: campaigns that they had the CCP, so I went to 717 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 2: the Wikipedia page, and like, I love some of the 718 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: names of their campaign because like some of them are 719 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 2: like sort of straightforward, like cleansing the class ranks campaign, 720 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 2: kind of obvious. But then like counter attack, the right 721 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 2: deviate counter attack, the right Deviationist reversal of verdicts trend campaign, 722 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 2: the criticized Lynn, criticized Confucius classic obviously campaign, there's something. 723 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 4: Always very poetic about it. Well, the four Pests campaign. 724 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, where that one was very sad and kind 725 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: of blew up in their face. But I think you're 726 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 3: getting to an important point, which is a campaign. What 727 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 3: was the second one you mentioned. 728 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 2: The counter attack the right Deviationist reversal of verdicts trend campaign. Sorry, 729 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 2: that was the Gang of Four attacking Chupain, who is 730 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 2: involved in reversing verdicts of people who had been improperly 731 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: punished during the Cultural Revolution. 732 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 3: Right, But this is actually important because it's like, what 733 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 3: does that mean exactly? And I think this has kind 734 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 3: of been both the strength and the weakness of the 735 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 3: CCP over time, which is that a lot of these 736 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 3: concepts are fuzzy and ever changing, and often they are 737 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 3: fuzzy on purpose, so that the leader can exert control 738 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 3: and declare what actually is anti right or anti visionism 739 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 3: or whatever. 740 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 4: No, totally it is clear. 741 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there is like the however many year period, 742 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 2: the formal the nineteen sixty six nineteen seventy six cultural Revolution, 743 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: which she the elder she and the younger she well 744 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,240 Speaker 2: like truly like unbelievable leverage, levels of personal humiliation and suffering. 745 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 2: But it really extended both before that and afterwards. And 746 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 2: I really, you know, it's clear, like it is not 747 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: easy in a political system such as that to ever 748 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 2: fully guard against the return of that style of full 749 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 2: blown politics. 750 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 3: I have one question for you. How many Moby Dick 751 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 3: references am I going to hear on this podcast? 752 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 2: Well, maybe the only the next time we do an 753 00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 2: energy one. 754 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, I can Okay, I'd be really impressed 755 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 3: if you like work it into every episode, So I definitely. 756 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,240 Speaker 2: I just thought it was very funny in this case 757 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 2: that the author happened to have a lot of an 758 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 2: unusually high level of drawn out thoughts between one character 759 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: and Moby Dick and the author of his book. 760 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 4: So I had to bring that up. I thought that 761 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 4: was very good. 762 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 3: I'm un good at being weird. Here, here we go. 763 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 3: I'm going to read Moby Dick as a lens for 764 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 3: understanding the CCP. 765 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:25,720 Speaker 4: You should It's great? 766 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 3: All right? Shall we leave it there? 767 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 4: Let's leave it there. 768 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,839 Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Audloughts Podcast. I'm 769 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 3: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 770 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 2: And I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 771 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 2: Follow our guest Joseph Triggian. He's at Joseph Triggian, and 772 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 2: check out his new book, The Party's Interests Come First, 773 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 2: The Life of Shi Jong Shun, father of Shi Jinping. 774 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 2: Follow our producer Carman Rodriguez at Kerman Ermann Dash, Ob 775 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 2: Bennett at Dashbot, and kil Brooks at Keil Brooks. And 776 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,760 Speaker 2: for more Odlov's content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash 777 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 2: odd lots, we're the daily newsletter and all of our episodes, 778 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 2: and you can chat up all of these topics, including 779 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 2: China twenty four to seven in our discord Discord dot 780 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 2: gg slash hot lots. 781 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 3: And if you enjoy all lots, if you want some 782 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 3: recommendations for Chinese historical dramas, then please leave us a 783 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 3: positive review on your favorite podcast platform, and remember, if 784 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 3: you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all 785 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 3: of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to 786 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 3: do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and 787 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 3: follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.