WEBVTT - SBF, Trump Immunity, Google Loss & Clean Beauty 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.480 I've been gathering the greatest hunters across all realities, and 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.120 I started with the best cost a lot of credits 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:19.239 to convince Mando. 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:20.880 But this is the way. 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:26.799 The plan, pure chaos and no one will sew it 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.680 better than them. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.599 Fortnite is an online video game where players collaborate to 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.879 survive in an open world environment, and the winner is 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.880 really Epic Games, which makes billions of dollars every year 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.240 from it. And this week Epic won its years long 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.760 real world battle with Google over its app store, where 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.960 it charges companies' fees when users make purchases. 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:52.880 For games like Fortnite. 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:55.640 In a major blow to the tech giant, a San 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:00.600 Francisco jury found that Google's app store constitutes an illegal 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.679 monopoly in violation of the anti trust laws. Google is 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:09.040 vowing to appeal. Joining me is anti trust expert Harry First, 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.240 a professor at NYU Law School. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.520 What did the jury decide exactly? 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:14.800 Here? 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.120 So, the jury decided basically that in a number of 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:24.560 different ways, Google abused its power to keep its monopoly 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:29.880 in the Google app stores or the distribution of Google 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.200 apps and that they did a number of different ways, 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:38.560 Agreements with the handset makers, agreements with developers, you know, 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.959 making sure that Google Play appears on every Android phone, 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:48.200 keeping developers from going off and developing their own app stores, 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.600 and basically requiring everyone to sort of go through this funnel. 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:52.800 You know. 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.680 It's sort of like the old hourglasses. You know, it 0:01:55.720 --> 0:02:00.000 goes down into the middle and everything goes through. Google 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:01.880 will play if you want to reach someone with an 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.880 Android phone in their hands. So those little grains of sand, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.000 thirty percent of them go into Google's pocket. 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.920 Yes, those are the commissions as high as thirty percent 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:16.280 that Google takes from software developers. The jury deliberated for 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.959 a little over three hours after a month long trial, 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:21.880 and came back with the unanimous verdict. 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.200 Was the evidence against Google. That's strong. 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:30.600 Jurors take these cases very seriously. Jurors pay attention. They 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.640 sit there and they listen hard. This is new to 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.040 them in a sense. I mean maybe some of them 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.960 have played video games on their phone, but they listen hard. 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.600 And I took a look at the sheep with their findings, 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.360 and it said, you're supposed to define what the market is, 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.040 and instead of the sheet having a list of things 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.480 with a checkbox. You know what it might be. It 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.400 just had a box and you had to write it in. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.640 So they wrote in the exact right product market definition 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.840 that the plaintiffs wanted. And to me, it's sort of 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.239 a little tell that they're paying attention. I mean, this 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.040 is a little bit technical language, and they were paying 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.919 attention to what was going on. There were atmospherics in 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.280 the case, of course, there always are, you know, testimony 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:23.600 of how apparently Google made an offer to Epic to 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.080 come back on board, We'll give you a lot of money. 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.799 There was some question about how Google was dealing with 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.520 its internal chats and whether they were trying to, you know, 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.400 erase the evidence as they were making it. So those 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.880 may have played a role. But I think that's a 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:45.720 real indication of non technical experts saying, Okay, we understand 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.160 what power is. You know what a monopoly is. We're 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.080 not economists, but we can understand this evidence. 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.440 And Google's it Epic, which seems to be on a mission, 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:01.160 lost a similar challenge to Apple's Appstor two years ago, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.160 and both companies have asked the Supreme Court to review that. 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.560 Does the judges verdict there contradict the jury's verdict here, 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.560 or are the cases and the facts different. 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:17.520 Yes, maybe or maybe yes. It depends, So you're doing. 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.280 It again, Harry, you got me in one of those. 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:21.240 I mean, this. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.960 Certainly is going to be one of Google's arguments when 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.760 Google appeals this case to the Court of Appeals in 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.000 the Ninth Circuit, saying, you know, you just affirmed this 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.680 decision finding a very different statement of what the product 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:39.360 market is, finding that Apple and Google compete in the 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:44.080 distribution of gaming apps, and you were right in the 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:48.400 Apple case, and this case can't stand. The jury made 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.440 an error of law, you know, reflected no doubt the 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.200 instructions that it was given, and the verdict can't stand. 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.160 So I think that's going to be a key part. 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.960 Now what did I say? Maybe yes, yes, maybe. Epic 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.200 is still arguing, of course that the judge was wrong 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.480 in the Apple case, but putting that to the side, 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.440 we'll argue there's differences between what Google's doing and what 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:16.200 Apple's doing, and the product market definition is different because 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:23.560 other companies actually do distribute Android compatible applications, so it's 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.800 not a product market definition constructed for one seller as 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.880 it seems for Apple, since no one else can distribute 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.520 applications that will work with the Apple operating system because 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:40.440 Apple controls that, but Google doesn't quite control Android in 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.280 the same way, although there are probably arguments over that. 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:45.760 So they'll try to distinguish the facts of the case 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:50.120 a little bit. But at heart it seems like a problem. 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.880 The case isn't over because the judge has to decide 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.240 what the remedy will be. Yet Epic didn't seek monetary 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:01.400 damages from Google, only a change in app store policies. 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.800 I mean, what's the range that the judge can order here? 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.680 Well, you're being more specific about what Epic seeking than 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:14.440 Epic was in its complaint. The remedy was stated very 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.920 generally about adjunctive relief. So it's not one hundred percent 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:23.680 clear what Epic wants, except to say that apparently whatever 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.599 match was offered Match dot Com was offered and agreed 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.360 to in its settlement. Presumably Google would have been glad 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.800 for Epic to take the same settlement it didn't, so 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:41.760 presumably it wants more than just that. Now, I'm not 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.359 one hundred percent clear about exactly what it wants, except 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.000 it certainly wants to be able to free itself from 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.839 the Google payment system. It wants to be able to 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:56.640 sell things in Fortnite through its own Fortnite app and 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.720 not have to pay a commission to Google. But exactly 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:04.279 how they want to achieve that technically, they don't seem 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.840 to want to have some sort of a choice thing 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.800 that's within Google's control. So it's not one hundred percent clear, 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.240 But I would say this Epic did not invest so 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:19.800 much money in this litigation without thinking that it could 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:23.440 get something worth more. So whatever it wants, they must 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.680 think it will be worth a lot of money to 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.720 them going forward. Because Fortnite's big business, some. 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.400 Analysts have been saying that the business model in apps 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.400 that generates for Google and Apple close to two hundred 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.720 billion dollars a year is in jeopardy. Jim Sweeney, the 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.200 chief executive officer of Epic, said, the dominoes are going 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.760 to start falling here. The end of thirty percent is 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:48.280 in sight. 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:50.200 Do you think it's as big as all that? 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:55.239 Well? Maybe, I mean it's certainly Epic wants to argue 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.480 that your business is about to end. You know, this 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.520 may just be a dance towards the settlement. Hard to say, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.880 but you know, whatever it is. Apple and Google have 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.840 already moderated some of their pricing for smaller developers, but 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.120 the big money appears to be particularly with the games, 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.400 which offers subscriptions and things that can be bought within 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.120 the app itself, and there's a lot of money in that. 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.560 So no doubt that's thirty percent is going to stick. 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:24.120 But what it's going to be and who's going to 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.840 control the payment I don't know. And part of the 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.800 question is is this a settlement that's only sort of 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.239 a one off for them or is it going to 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.600 help other developers? And I guess that's yet to be seen. 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.439 Google is defending two other anti trust cases by the 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.880 Justice Department, one in DC over its search engine and 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.240 another in Virginia over its ad tech business, and the 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:52.080 Justice Department has been investigating Apple's app store practices since 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:57.240 around twenty nineteen. So is it like an antitrust revolution 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.080 against big tech? Looking at it from the viewpoint of 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.960 a professor of antitrust. 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:08.160 Well, from professor of antitrust, I think, gee, what took 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.000 everyone so long catched up? 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:10.320 You know? 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.640 If you think about using anti trust against major economic powerhouses, 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.920 and particularly in the tech space, it took two decades 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:23.199 between Microsoft and filing cases against the major tech platforms. 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:27.319 So in that sense, it's a revolution not taking place 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:32.000 in the streets, it's taking place in courtrooms. So it's 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:36.040 pretty amazing in that sense. And the ad tech case 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.480 against Google that will also be tried before a jury 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.840 because the Justice Department is asking for money damages because 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.440 the federal government is an advertiser. So it's a way 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.240 both to get money back for taxpayers, but also a 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.280 way to have a case try before a jury instead 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.400 of a judge. And this may be a little cautionary 0:09:58.440 --> 0:09:59.880 tale for Google. 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.240 About that sort of a test of whether a jury 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.280 makes a difference rather than a judge. Thanks so much, Harry. 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.959 That's Professor Harry First of NYU Law School. This is Bloomberg. 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:17.079 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.400 Look, I screwed up, like I would CEO. I had 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.200 a responsibility here. I had a responsibility to be on 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.080 top of what was going on on the exchange. I 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:30.520 wish I had done much better at that. 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:36.120 Sam Bankman Freed accepted responsibility for ftx's collapse in his 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.920 so called apology tour after its bankruptcy in November of 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.360 twenty twenty two. But fast forward to a year later 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:45.760 when he took the stand at his front trial, and 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.600 it was a completely different story. Bankman Freed danced around 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.479 the questions and appeared vague and evasive in a painstaking 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.400 cross examination, so much so that his own lawyer says 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.000 he was the worst witness he's ever seen. Joining me 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.200 is Bloomberg Legal reporter Ava Benni Morrison, who spoke to 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.720 attorney David Mills behind the scenes. Architect of Bankman Freed's 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.320 defense at trial, Ava tell us about David Mills, who 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:13.040 is he for. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:18.079 David Mills is a Stamford law professor, a longtime White 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.720 Cole lawyer who is also best friends with Sam Bateman, 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:25.079 Fred's parents, Barbara and Joe. They're also Stanford Lall professors, 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:30.120 and he came into SBF case to be the legal strategist, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.720 though he was sort of directing the approach that trial 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.280 attorney should take, suggesting different strategies in terms of dealing 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.559 with the chargers, the defense, the kind of case that 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:39.600 they would make at the trial. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:45.040 Law isn't his only career. He has quite an expansive resume. 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:45.840 The's riot. 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.320 He's a very interesting guy. On top of being an attorney, 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.480 he's also a managing director at Fortress. He's also a 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.880 general counsel at a quite reputable Silicon Valley design firm 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.680 run by the very well known former chief designer Apple, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.480 Johnny Ives. He's also been advisor to the VC firm Benchmark, 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.720 when it was trying to out the Uber CEO Travis 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.000 Kalenick a few years ago. So he has his things 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.640 in a lot of different pies, but he is relatively unknown. 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.440 Most people outside of the industry don't really know who 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.320 he is. People that I spoke to for this story 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:23.439 that he's very humble. He likes to keep his head 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.720 down and just do the work. He doesn't really seek 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:26.840 the limeline at all. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.760 And he's done very well, although he won't talk about 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.080 just how well. He donated at least ten million dollars 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.400 to stand for law school, millions more to the NAACP 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.080 Legal Defense Fund, and when SBF was jailed in the Bahamas, 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.600 he flew there on his own private jet. 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.240 But he's also been involved in a lot of pro. 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.960 Bono efforts for criminal defendants, and when you interviewed him, 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.800 he had a cap on with the number three, four, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.520 one nine representing the number of people he's helped to 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:56.320 get out of prison. 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.720 This is something he's probably most proud of. Was a 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.640 major financial backer and driver of the effort to overturn 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.120 California's three strikes law. That was a law that put 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.800 people in prison for life on their third conviction, no 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.800 matter how big or small that third conviction was. So 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.760 he worked with students at Stanford Law in twenty twelve 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.920 to change that law, which ended up getting thousands of 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:22.400 people released from prison. 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.880 He told you that he realized right away that it 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:31.560 would be an uphill battle defending bankman freed because lawyers 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:32.360 turned him down. 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.240 He'd had a bit of an idea about FTX from 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.640 Joe's and Beamon Fred's barber. They had informal conversations about 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.480 how the crypto exchange was going. Joe thinking about going 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.559 over and working for FDx full time, but when there 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.400 was a run of a bank at FTX in November 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.920 twenty twenty two, so called David essentially for advice. David's 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.200 response was, Sam needs a lawyer right away. So David 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.240 started calling around on different firms looking for someone to 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.080 try and represent Sam Bankman Freeze, but he said a 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:06.880 lot of people didn't want to touch the case. He 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.520 described Sam a most hated person in America behind Donald Trump. 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.640 He finally set it on two trial attorneys in New York, 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.439 Mark Cohen and Christian Evidel, who ended up taking the 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:18.520 case right through a trial. 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.000 He doesn't believe the trial was fair. Tell us why. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.080 He said he believed that Sam is innocent because he 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.840 didn't form the intent to do anything wrong, which is 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:33.200 obviously a key element of proving fraud. He said that 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.760 the pre trial motions, though the orders that the judge 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.320 handed down before the trial even got started, really put 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.120 the defense at had disadvantaged. They weren't allowed to haul 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.440 a number of expert witnesses, so they couldn't really rely 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.360 on the defense that Sam was acting on the advice 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.160 of lawyers and doing a lot of the things that 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.720 the prosecution said was wrong. He said, from that point 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.560 on he realized the case was essentially unwinnable. 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.680 And you and I have discussed Sam bekman Fried's decision 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.920 to take the witness down. He said that after the 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:10.840 prosecution's case, SBF really had no choice but to testify. 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.640 He said, after those profile motions and hearing the damning 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:19.120 testimony from some of Sam mcman fried's former friends and 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.960 fellow executives that Sam really had no other choice but 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:26.280 to testify himself. Mill said it was his idea and 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:30.240 his strategy for Sam to get up there and say, yes, 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.760 I did everything that you said I did, and I 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.840 made all of these statements that yes, they were conflicting 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.920 after FTX Pubs bankruptcy last year, but I was doing 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.720 my best to look after customers and I was trying 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.320 to save their money. But he didn't do that. He 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.640 seemed to be okay and coherent and clear on direct examination, 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.960 but when he was under cross examination, he came across 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.200 as a little bit of basive. He was quibbling with 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:58.280 the prosecutors questioning. It seemed like he wouldn't answer sort 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.120 of simple questions about whether he says or he didn't. 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.720 And Mills was pretty candid in his assessment of Sam 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.040 under cross examination, saying he was probably the worst witness 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:09.760 he's ever seen under. 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.960 Cross I assume they prepped him, but did he talk 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:13.360 about how they prepped him at all? 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.600 I asked that question. I said, well, isn't it your 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:21.000 job to Sam ahead of his trial for this very situation. 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.400 He said that while there was a lot of preparation 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.560 done for his direct examination, it was really difficult to 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.600 prepare him adequately because he was in prison. His battle 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.960 was revoked just before trial. There were a lot of 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.160 issues around his lawyers getting proper access to him, and 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.440 Mill also said that if he had all of the 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.080 resources and money in the world, he would have hired 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.760 a different lawyer who wasn't involved in the case to 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.880 go through a mock cross examination with Sam, but they 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.520 didn't do that. So he put it down to the 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.640 lack of access to Sam in prison and the lack 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:54.120 of money. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.600 Essentially, he told you that SBF went off script when 0:16:58.600 --> 0:16:59.440 he took the stand. 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:00.960 What did he mean by that? 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.760 Mills said that it was his strategy and he wanted 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.520 Sam to get up there and admit to everything that 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.200 the prosecution and the witnesses said that he did. They 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.840 wanted him to just admit to all of the public 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.160 statements for the tweets and the media interviews and all 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.560 of those different things that were on the public record 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.600 in the context of yes, I said these things, but 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.879 I was trying the best in really difficult circumstances to 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.520 do the best for customers, but he didn't do that. Instead, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.720 Sam got up there and said, time and time again, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.840 he couldn't recall things that the prosecution said that he 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.639 had said that he couldn't recall certain conversations with witnesses. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.960 So there was a disconnect there between what Mills wanted 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.480 him to do and what his strategy was and what 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:45.080 Sam did. 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.919 But Mills thinks that even if bankman Freed had performed 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.880 better on the stand, the jury still would have found 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:52.560 him guilty. 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.680 Yes, Mills said that he thought a guilty verdict was inevitable, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.800 but the trial wasn't there. This circles back to Mills 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.199 referring to the pretrial motions that essentially whittled down the 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.200 defense case to a case that was very thin. He 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:12.000 also thought that the testimony from Sam Batemanfried's former friends 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.720 Gary Wong, Caroline Ellison, and the Shad Seeing were pretty 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.960 powerful and it was difficult to go up against those. 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.520 This really struck me, he said, I'm not going to 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.840 get myself emotionally involved on a very deep personal level 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.520 in a case like this again, And he's rethinking taking 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:30.359 criminal law. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.960 Cases exactly He seems like someone who just throws absolutely 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.720 everything into a case once he signs onto it. 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:38.159 You know. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.480 He told us he often talks to his wife to 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.919 almost get her permission and her support to take on 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.840 a client because he just gives his entire life to it. 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.320 So that's what he did in this case. And I 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.359 think it had the added complexity of a friendship there. 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.679 And he found the whole experience very demanding, very exhausting, 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.240 and he just doesn't want to do another criminal law 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:00.000 case like it again. 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.160 So he's not going to be involved in the appeal. 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.280 Then, that's what he said. He doesn't want to be 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.159 involved in the appeal. He feels like he's done his 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.840 bit and he's ready to just take it down a 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.320 few notches and spend a bit more time with his family. 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.639 Did the trial cause a breach in his friendship with 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:18.520 Sam bankman Fried's parents. 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:19.080 Yes. 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.040 Mill thinks that this case and the verdict against Sam 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.920 bankman Fred has certainly had an impact on his friendship 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.159 with Barbara and Joe. Neil said that he took on 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.479 this case out of the favor to Sam bankman Free's parents, 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.480 as well as an interest in being involved in a 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.760 really novel and high profile case. Mills said that he 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.800 was concerned that parents who think that their child hasn't 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.959 done anything wrong will look for someone to blame, and 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.800 that he was in their line of sight. He also 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.399 said that he didn't think their friendship would recover. He 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.040 actually went to Barbara and Joe and asked them what 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.560 they thought of Mills and his comments. They responded and 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.479 said we loved David Mills and were eternally grateful for 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:01.120 everything that he has done. 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.360 For There are often fallouts from trials that the public 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.960 doesn't see. Fascinating interview. Thank you so much, Ava. That's 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.359 Bloomberg Legal reporter Ava, Benny Morrison. I'm June Grosso. When 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:12.359 you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:20.440 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.760 Adherence to the rule of law is a bedrock principle 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.520 of the Department of Justice, and our nation's commitment to 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.639 the rule of law sets an example for the world. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.280 We have one set of laws in this country and 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:36.880 they apply to everyone. 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.720 In announcing one of the two federal criminal cases against 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.600 Donald Trump, special counsel Jack Smith said that no one 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.920 is above the law. It applies equally to everyone. However, 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.880 the former president is claiming the law doesn't apply to him. 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.880 Trump says he's entitled to absolute presidential immunity against criminal 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.080 charges over his efforts to overturn earn the twenty twenty 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.959 presidential election. The trial judge rejected Trump's claims of immunity, 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.600 refusing to toss out the charges, and Trump has appealed 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.439 to the DC Appellate Court, But in an effort to 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.040 prevent delays in the case, the special counsel is trying 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:20.040 to leapfrog the appellate court by asking the Supreme Court 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.040 to step in to decide the issue. Joining me is 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.560 Derek Muller, a professor at Notre Dame Law School. Derek 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:31.080 tell us about this untested claim of absolute presidential immunity 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.359 against criminal charges that Trump is making. 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.640 Think about, you know, immunity from your actions as president. 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.359 That is, you are engaged in your official capacity, you 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:45.600 are engaged in executive functions, and the notion that you 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.920 can be criminally prosecuted for that behavior, for the things 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.000 that you're doing while you're conducting your job, and should 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.720 be exempt from criminal prosecution as a result, and get 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.320 a lot of turns on at what point does your 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.800 behavior sort of flip from official executive behavior too unofficial behavior, 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.320 political or individual behavior. Is there an immunity for crimes 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.399 committed if you're purporting to them in your official capacity? 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.320 How could that possibly be the case? And so on? 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.600 The Special Council is asking the Supreme Court to step 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:20.159 in using Scherai before judgment, which is essentially skipping the 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.320 appellate court. It's unusual, But how unusual is it for 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.000 the court to grant that kind of review? 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.479 Pretty unusual, I mean, so I think you can think 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.960 about it this as some layers. If you're asking the 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.480 Supreme Court to have a petition for corcerari before judgment, 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.240 you know, sometimes that might arise if there's just a 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.320