1
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,680
Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

2
00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,440
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

3
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,360
Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

4
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,919
Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

5
00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,560
Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

6
00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

7
00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 2: Helloha, Hi everyone, Welcome back to our new podcast, Facing

8
00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,239
Speaker 2: Evil from Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio. We are your hosts.

9
00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,120
Speaker 2: I'm Roscha Pecurero.

10
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 3: And I'm Evett Gentila. And if you are just joining us,

11
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 3: check out our first episode on the Case of Lisa

12
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,479
Speaker 3: Al or our episode zero, where we share our crazy

13
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,760
Speaker 3: family history and our first foray into podcasting. Each week

14
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 3: we are joined by our amazing producer, Trevor Young.

15
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm here and sweating because it is super hot

16
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:04,680
Speaker 1: in La right now where I live.

17
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 2: Isn't it hot in San Francisco too?

18
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,600
Speaker 3: Event it's very hot in San Francisco. I have the

19
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,440
Speaker 3: blinds closed, there's no fan on.

20
00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,480
Speaker 2: I don't feel bad for either of you. I'm in

21
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,040
Speaker 2: Portland and it's raining all the time. It's not okay.

22
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,160
Speaker 2: This is why we all need to live in the

23
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:22,520
Speaker 2: same city very soon.

24
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 4: Right, right soon soon? Alrighty.

25
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,080
Speaker 3: So, now that we know the geography of where we

26
00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,559
Speaker 3: all live, let's get back to why we're here.

27
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:33,160
Speaker 4: Okay.

28
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 3: Most importantly, we want to discuss true crime stories that

29
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 3: we think that need to be brought into the light,

30
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,520
Speaker 3: and we want to share our unique perspective on the

31
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 3: cases and people involved.

32
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,760
Speaker 2: And facing evil is about being the light in the dark.

33
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,520
Speaker 2: It's about moving onward and upward and never letting evil

34
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,000
Speaker 2: define who you are or who you want to be.

35
00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,760
Speaker 3: Alrighty, Trevor, let's have you tell us about this case.

36
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,880
Speaker 5: I hope that in the grief of this moment for

37
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,880
Speaker 5: Matthew Shepherd's family, and then the shared outrage across America,

38
00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,680
Speaker 5: Americans will once again search their hearts and do what

39
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 5: they can to reduce their own fear and anxiety and

40
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,320
Speaker 5: anger at people who are different.

41
00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 6: It was a crime that shook the country to its

42
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,400
Speaker 6: core and helped accelerate the march towards equality for the

43
00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,880
Speaker 6: LGBT community. He had blood all over him, and I

44
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,760
Speaker 6: asked him what had happened, and he told me that

45
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 6: he thought maybe he had killed someone. He couldn't tell

46
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,440
Speaker 6: me everything that had happened. He just said that, yeah,

47
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 6: he had beat him with the.

48
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 4: Butt of the gun.

49
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,040
Speaker 1: Matthew Shepherd was a twenty one year old gay man

50
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,680
Speaker 1: who was brutally beaten and killed back in nineteen ninety eight.

51
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 1: At the time, he was in college at the University

52
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: of Wyoming in Laramie, and one night he was at

53
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 1: a local bar when two men approached him. It's unclear

54
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 1: why Matthew ended up leaving with them in their car.

55
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: Then the two men took Matthew to a field where

56
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,720
Speaker 1: they beat and tortured him, supposedly for being gay. They

57
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,320
Speaker 1: tied him to a fence and left him there to die.

58
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,000
Speaker 1: It wasn't until the following afternoon that a cyclist found

59
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 1: Matthew and called the police. He was rushed to a

60
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 1: nearby hospital in Colorado. This attack immediately became a national

61
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,799
Speaker 1: news story. On one website, thousands of people posted daily

62
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,840
Speaker 1: well wishes for Matthew and his family. Sadly, Matthew died

63
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 1: of his injuries six days after the attack. The two

64
00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 1: killers were eventually captured and convicted of first degree murder,

65
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 1: but this was a wake up call for the entire country.

66
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 1: In the wake of Matthew's death, conversations about hate crimes

67
00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 1: and ways to prevent them were popping up in public

68
00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,680
Speaker 1: forms everywhere. So what really went down that fateful night,

69
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 1: What were the motives behind Matthew's assailants, and how does

70
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 1: his story reveal a need to address homophobia in America,

71
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 1: especially in small towns.

72
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,920
Speaker 3: I already know that this, I mean, this story is

73
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,920
Speaker 3: going to be so tough for both of us, right rash.

74
00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:28,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. Every time I personally think about Matthew, it's a

75
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 2: mix between wanting to throw up and wanting to cry.

76
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,600
Speaker 3: I know it's you know for me too. I just

77
00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,200
Speaker 3: I can just remember seeing Matthew's beautiful smile, and I

78
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,960
Speaker 3: didn't know him, but he seemed like such a bright

79
00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:51,360
Speaker 3: light and just a really sweet soul. And when you

80
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:58,040
Speaker 3: see how he was killed, it's just it's inhumane loss.

81
00:04:58,720 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 4: For me.

82
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:06,159
Speaker 2: Of course, this case hits home for me because I

83
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 2: am an openly gay woman. I'm forty three years old.

84
00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 2: I came out at the age of thirty, but to

85
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 2: be quite honest, I think I would have come out

86
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:19,120
Speaker 2: much sooner in life if Matthew hadn't been killed. So

87
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,240
Speaker 2: Matthew was killed in nineteen ninety eight. I was a

88
00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,960
Speaker 2: senior in high school in nineteen ninety seven, and when

89
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 2: I found out about the horrific way that Matthew was killed,

90
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 2: I knew that if I came out, I pictured myself

91
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,200
Speaker 2: brutally beaten like Matthew. I didn't picture it at the

92
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,599
Speaker 2: hand of two assailants. I pictured it at the hand

93
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 2: of my father. And knowing that Matthew was killed most

94
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 2: likely because of his sexuality and because of homophobia, it's

95
00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:56,800
Speaker 2: horrifying to me.

96
00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,640
Speaker 3: And that just I mean that just if breaks my

97
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 3: heart for so many different reasons, and it's I mean,

98
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,279
Speaker 3: this is really a huge reason why this is so

99
00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 3: so important and why this show is so important, Like

100
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,440
Speaker 3: so we can really address, you know, important issues like this.

101
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 3: I think a good place for us to start is

102
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,040
Speaker 3: by talking a little bit about Matthew's upbringing. So Matthew

103
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,000
Speaker 3: Shepherd was born in Casper, Wyoming, on December first, nineteen

104
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,440
Speaker 3: seventy six. His parents, Judy and Dennis Shepherd. They would

105
00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 3: always say that he preferred to be around adults, and

106
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,320
Speaker 3: I can kind of relate to that because I just

107
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 3: remember growing up and being around mom, especially in my teens,

108
00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 3: Like I always wanted to be around older people. But

109
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,039
Speaker 3: for Matthew, you know, he struggled to make friends his

110
00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:51,800
Speaker 3: own age, right, And.

111
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 2: I actually remember reading a quote from his mom, Judy,

112
00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,200
Speaker 2: and she said that he got teased a lot for

113
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,719
Speaker 2: actually being small and unathletic, and that he always felt

114
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,440
Speaker 2: sort of out of place, and that might have been why,

115
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 2: you know, it was hard for him to make friends

116
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 2: of his own age. It probably didn't help that his

117
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,920
Speaker 2: parents uprooted Matthew when he was just seventeen. And Trevor,

118
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,600
Speaker 2: do you know more about the details of what happened

119
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:20,400
Speaker 2: around that time.

120
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 1: Well, Matthew's dad got a job for Saudi Aramco in Dran,

121
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, so the parents moved there. Matthew decided he

122
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 1: didn't want to go to Saudi Arabia, so instead he

123
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 1: went to the American School in Switzerland and he studied

124
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,160
Speaker 1: theater there and then in May of nineteen ninety five,

125
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 1: Matthew had a very traumatic experience. That summer, he went

126
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,000
Speaker 1: on a school trip to Morocco and there Matthew was

127
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,360
Speaker 1: assaulted and raped by a group of men. As you

128
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 1: can imagine, the incident deeply traumatized Matthew. He reportedly was

129
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,760
Speaker 1: in a near console and state of anxiety. After that point,

130
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 1: he was regularly having panic attacks and this plunged him

131
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,800
Speaker 1: into a very deep depression. So he was also admitted

132
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 1: to the hospital multiple times over the next couple of

133
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,280
Speaker 1: years for clinical depression and even suicidal ideations.

134
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,280
Speaker 2: I mean, how could you not after something that horrific happens.

135
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 3: We know that Matthew was, you know, somewhat able to

136
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,360
Speaker 3: overcome to some extent, and he did eventually go to

137
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,360
Speaker 3: college and he enrolled at the University of Wyoming and

138
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,080
Speaker 3: Laramie and Russia. You know, this is a question for you.

139
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,760
Speaker 3: I already know because I'm your sister and I know everything,

140
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 3: So I know when you you know, when you came

141
00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,920
Speaker 3: out to Mom, I know what she said. But for

142
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,000
Speaker 3: those that are listening, can you share a little bit

143
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 3: of what Mom said to you.

144
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,960
Speaker 2: When I came out. Yeah? So, Mom as loving and

145
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,720
Speaker 2: kind and amazing as she was. I remember the first

146
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,040
Speaker 2: thing she asked me was when I told her because

147
00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 2: I literally said, Mom, I'm gay, I'm a lesbian, And

148
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 2: She's like, but baby, why do you have to put

149
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,240
Speaker 2: a label on it? Like, can't you just say that

150
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:06,600
Speaker 2: you love?

151
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:06,840
Speaker 1: Love?

152
00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: And love all people. I'm like, no, Mom, like I'm

153
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,200
Speaker 2: never sleeping with a manigan. I'm one hundred percent a

154
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,040
Speaker 2: lesbian and I love women, you know. And that was

155
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,160
Speaker 2: the only question she asked me. She was one hundred

156
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 2: million percent supportive from that moment forward, as of course,

157
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,720
Speaker 2: my beautiful sister, Evet, you were and are. But that's

158
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 2: not the case for the entire queer community, sadly. But

159
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 2: Matthew and I were so lucky. I had Mom and

160
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 2: Matthew had Judy and another crazy thing to even think about, Like,

161
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 2: dating is super hard period, right, but when you come out,

162
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,960
Speaker 2: and especially when you come out during a time when

163
00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,840
Speaker 2: you know homosexuality was it used to be like a

164
00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,240
Speaker 2: dirty word, it can be scary, and dating it can

165
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,439
Speaker 2: be super hard for someone who's just coming out, and

166
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,839
Speaker 2: it was for me. I mean a lot of women

167
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,280
Speaker 2: came after me that freaked me out. So I ended

168
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,680
Speaker 2: up marrying the first woman I dated, and that's me

169
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,199
Speaker 2: and Vana thirteen years later. But you know, from my understanding,

170
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 2: I know that Matthew did try dating, you know, when

171
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 2: he came out and well shortly after, but in nineteen

172
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,160
Speaker 2: ninety eight, we know for sure that he met a

173
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,440
Speaker 2: thirty six year old named Brian Gooden on the Internet

174
00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,839
Speaker 2: in a chat room, I think is what they used

175
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 2: to call him, right, Trevor good nineties. Right, Yes, they

176
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 2: ended up talking online for months, but it's unclear if

177
00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,560
Speaker 2: they ever actually met in person. Brian Goodin would later

178
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 2: say that Matthew was actually afraid to meet in person.

179
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,680
Speaker 2: And to me, it just sounds like Matthew was afraid

180
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,440
Speaker 2: to be out publicly in a small town like Laramie.

181
00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's the nineties, you know, he probably had

182
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,440
Speaker 1: had reason to fear being publicly out, especially in a

183
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,839
Speaker 1: small place like Laramie that's relatively rural and conservative. And

184
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,760
Speaker 1: we know this now because later that year, in October

185
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety eight, Matthew finally decided to put himself

186
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,680
Speaker 1: out there. He finally, you know, tried, and that one

187
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,720
Speaker 1: time that he did that is when he met the

188
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,480
Speaker 1: two men who would ultimately be responsible for his murder.

189
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,360
Speaker 1: And that is what we'll talk about when we come

190
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:30,560
Speaker 1: back from a quick break.

191
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,200
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the night that led to Matthew's death.

192
00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:43,360
Speaker 2: October sixth, nineteen ninety eight. So that evening, Matthew went

193
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,319
Speaker 2: to an LGBTA meeting, and I believe at the time

194
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 2: LGBTA stood for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Transgender Alliance. So he

195
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,400
Speaker 2: went to the meeting on campus to plan for Gay

196
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,120
Speaker 2: Awareness Week, and afterwards he went to the Fireside Lounge

197
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 2: in Laramie. So they didn't really have a gay bar

198
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,920
Speaker 2: in Laramie, so the fireside was the next best thing.

199
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,400
Speaker 2: But no one is really sure why Matthew went there

200
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,160
Speaker 2: on that particular night. Still, we do know that he

201
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,480
Speaker 2: got there around ten thirty pm, Trevor, what do we

202
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:19,880
Speaker 2: know about what happened next?

203
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,400
Speaker 1: Well, we know that at around eleven forty five pm,

204
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,920
Speaker 1: two guys walk into the bar, Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson,

205
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,959
Speaker 1: and they're both twenty one years old. They order pictures

206
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 1: of beer and sit down. They're there for a minute.

207
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,120
Speaker 1: There was one interesting thing I read where the bartender

208
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,439
Speaker 1: that night was actually interviewed and he remembers them as

209
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,680
Speaker 1: both being like kind of rude and somewhat like menacing,

210
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,920
Speaker 1: like sitting there like there was just something off with

211
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 1: these guys, right, So anyway, around midnight, the two men

212
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,559
Speaker 1: walk up to Matthew and the three of them are

213
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 1: talking for a few minutes, and then finally Henderson and

214
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,959
Speaker 1: McKinney offer Matthew a ride home. Supposedly, they reportedly all

215
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,079
Speaker 1: left the bar together right after midnight. So they all

216
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 1: pile into the front seat of Henderson's truck, Henderson's driving,

217
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,439
Speaker 1: and then things take a turn. So McKinney claimed that

218
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 1: Matthew made up pass at him by grabbing his leg,

219
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 1: and so he reacted to this by apparently hitting Matthew

220
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,640
Speaker 1: in the face with a gun that he had with

221
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 1: the butt of his gun. And where does this gun

222
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:30,440
Speaker 1: come from?

223
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,640
Speaker 2: Is that normal in Wyoming? Like you have a gun

224
00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:34,079
Speaker 2: at a bar?

225
00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,720
Speaker 4: I mean, it is a rural state. I mean, I

226
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:37,199
Speaker 4: don't know.

227
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: I mean, so if you think about Henderson's driving, I'm

228
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,840
Speaker 1: assuming Matthew's like maybe in the middle or in the

229
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,800
Speaker 1: like kind of passenger side, but they're all like in

230
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 1: that kind of like front, full seated area. It's likely

231
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,360
Speaker 1: there was like maybe one in the dash right right,

232
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,920
Speaker 1: maybe that's where it was and he hit him with

233
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,520
Speaker 1: that jeez. I mean, And of course this is all

234
00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,040
Speaker 1: just what we know from their testimony, because you know,

235
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,120
Speaker 1: obviously we don't have Matthew's testimony, so.

236
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right, right, I remember. So there's two

237
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,400
Speaker 2: things that I have to point out that comes right

238
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,600
Speaker 2: to mind when I'm thinking about things that Aaron McKinney said. One,

239
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,480
Speaker 2: of course, you know, there's an amazing article from Vanity Fair,

240
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 2: which I know we've gotten a lot of our research

241
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 2: from there, that Aaron said something along the lines of,

242
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 2: you know, guess what, we're not gay and we're going

243
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,760
Speaker 2: to jack you up, like he said that to Matthew.

244
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 2: And also in his recorded confession when he actually admitted

245
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 2: to killing Matthew, he used multiple homophobic slurs like I'm

246
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 2: not even going to say the word. So it's like

247
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 2: his homophobia was like in him.

248
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 5: You know.

249
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,120
Speaker 1: A big issue is like what was their intent here

250
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,000
Speaker 1: and in this moment?

251
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 2: Right?

252
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 1: And I think already, based on what you've described, like

253
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 1: the intent feels clear already, right.

254
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean we have to remember they were

255
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 3: only in the bar for what fifteen minutes, right, and

256
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 3: they had ordered a picture of beer, and now all

257
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 3: of a sudden they're leaving with Matthew.

258
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 1: Something's not right, Yeah, I mean, if you have a

259
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,080
Speaker 1: whole picture, you're gonna down it in fifteen minutes. I

260
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 1: think clearly they had a ulterari your motives here, how

261
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: planned it is some unclear, but it only does really

262
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 1: get worse from this point on. So McKinney then orders

263
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 1: Matthew to hand over his wallets. Matthew complies and hands

264
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,480
Speaker 1: over the wallet containing all of thirty dollars, and then

265
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,000
Speaker 1: McKinney continued to beat Matthew even after getting the wallet.

266
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,760
Speaker 1: ABC would later interview McKinney and they asked him why

267
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 1: he kept on beating Matthew after he got his money,

268
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 1: and he said, quote, sometimes when you have that kind

269
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,120
Speaker 1: of rage going through you, there's no stopping it. I've

270
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,520
Speaker 1: attacked my best friends coming off of meth binges end quote.

271
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, this guy is not great.

272
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 3: I mean, it just seems like to me, Aaron McKinney

273
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,840
Speaker 3: was violent and you know, hurt people, hurt people.

274
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yep, right, Yeah.

275
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 3: It seems to me it was some sort of internalized

276
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,120
Speaker 3: homophobia that was absolutely coming out.

277
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's the reason I think that homophobia exists.

278
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,240
Speaker 2: There's I think, you know, a few really big things.

279
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 2: One people can't wrap their head around someone else being gay,

280
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 2: and I think that comes from or stems from, you know, religion.

281
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 2: There's certain religions that have said how awful homosexuality is.

282
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 2: That's why I have a very hard time walking into

283
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:50,680
Speaker 2: any church. But it's also that internalized homophobia stems from

284
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 2: possibly like people who are gay themselves and they hate

285
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 2: themselves so much, you know that they're taking this rage

286
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 2: out in other people. Now I'm not saying that McKinney

287
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,119
Speaker 2: was gay, and just you know, I'm not saying, but

288
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 2: maybe do you know what I mean? Like, why else

289
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,919
Speaker 2: have so much rage? It just doesn't make any sense

290
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,120
Speaker 2: regardless of what the scenario was. Matthew was his target

291
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 2: and his punching bag, and he he didn't stop right. Henderson,

292
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 2: you know, ended up driving all the way out to

293
00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,520
Speaker 2: the eastern outskirts of Laramie into a neighborhood, this little

294
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,159
Speaker 2: housing development called Sherman Hills. They drove down an unpaved

295
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,879
Speaker 2: road until they reached a wooden buck fence. And a

296
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,480
Speaker 2: wooden buck fence is just a fence that basically is

297
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:45,639
Speaker 2: built in an ex pattern, but it's super secluded. And

298
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 2: the two men ended up forcing Matthew out of the car.

299
00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 2: So McKinney ordered Henderson, you know, you know, McKinney's calling

300
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,879
Speaker 2: all the shots. At this point, he ordered Henderson to

301
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,200
Speaker 2: tie Matthew to the fence post with a clothesline from

302
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,880
Speaker 2: the truck. Once Matthew was actually tied to the fence,

303
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,639
Speaker 2: McKinney proceeded to again viciously beat him with the butt

304
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:11,439
Speaker 2: of his gun.

305
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just to give you an idea here, I

306
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 1: actually looked at the autopsy report, and the coroner sat

307
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,959
Speaker 1: in the report that Shepherd was struck nineteen to twenty

308
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 1: one times in the head with the butt of a

309
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 1: I guess it was a Magnum Smith and Wesson pistol,

310
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 1: and that final blow from that pistol irreparably damaged Shepherd's brainstem.

311
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 3: It's just the brutality of this is like, it's just

312
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,359
Speaker 3: it's it's horrible. It's horrendous, Right, It's like unbelievable. Yeah,

313
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,159
Speaker 3: I can't even comprehend somebody raging out like this and

314
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 3: killing someone. I mean, I also read that Henderson supposedly

315
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 3: supposedly tried to stop McKinney, hold him back, Yeah, hold

316
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,119
Speaker 3: him back, but he tried to cool him down. But

317
00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 3: the thing is, like, it's obvious that Aaron was the

318
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,480
Speaker 3: aggressor of the two right, right, And it kind of

319
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:08,120
Speaker 3: seemed like McKenney definitely was in charge and Henderson, I mean,

320
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 3: was he just going.

321
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:09,679
Speaker 4: Along with it?

322
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean when Henderson tried to like stop him,

323
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,679
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure like McKinny like smacked him in the

324
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,239
Speaker 1: face with his gun and like just like beat him

325
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 1: into submission, you know. So yeah, I don't know if

326
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 1: he's going.

327
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 2: On with it, but it's weird that still doesn't take

328
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:24,640
Speaker 2: him off the hook.

329
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,920
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, like no.

330
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 2: He was okay, maybe, like you said, he wasn't the aggressor,

331
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,960
Speaker 2: he wasn't the main person, but he still let it happen.

332
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,639
Speaker 3: Right, and he still drove to the fence where they did.

333
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 3: All yes, you know what I mean, he's so and if.

334
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 1: He actually felt any remorse too, I mean he would

335
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 1: have called the police immediately afterwards, called an ambulance. But

336
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,159
Speaker 1: as we know that that doesn't happen.

337
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 2: Right, they left him there to die, Like did they

338
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 2: think he wasn't going to die? I mean, like I

339
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 2: wasn't even thinking about that in my head, Like you know,

340
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,920
Speaker 2: like you have this gun, Like why are you beating

341
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 2: him with the gun rather than one your fist? Or

342
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,120
Speaker 2: like if you really want to kill him. Why aren't

343
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:00,320
Speaker 2: you shooting him?

344
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 4: Right?

345
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,920
Speaker 2: I thought about that, and I'm like, do you think

346
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 2: maybe they thought that he was going to survive and

347
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,440
Speaker 2: that they were just going to teach this gay boy

348
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 2: a lesson, like.

349
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 3: I maybe, right, maybe maybe, but we just we don't

350
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 3: know what they thought.

351
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 4: Obviously, I get.

352
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,879
Speaker 1: The impression they like wanted to physically beat somebody, you know,

353
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 1: like that there was some sort of satisfaction that they

354
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 1: got out of, like causing someone pain rather than just

355
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: like a quick death via a shot to the head

356
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 1: or something.

357
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which makes it worse, which.

358
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was.

359
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 3: It's an it's an obvious rage, right, Like we don't

360
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 3: know what was building up and that's behind that range,

361
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:37,679
Speaker 3: what was behind that?

362
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 5: Right?

363
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: Well, anyways, they end up taking Matthew's shoes and wallet

364
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: and they get out of Dodge, leave them there in cold,

365
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,400
Speaker 1: freezing temperatures, and then on their way back to Laramie,

366
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 1: the two men get into a fight with two other

367
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: men for some unrelated matter. I think they kind of

368
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: stumbled upon these other two guys who are like in

369
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 1: the middle of robbing a car, and they kind of

370
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: called him out for it, and they ended up getting

371
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: in this weird scuffle. So it's because of this little

372
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: scuffle that police are called to the scene and McKinnie

373
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: and Henderson tried to run away from the police. Then

374
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: they left behind their truck with all of Matthew's belongings

375
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 1: like the wallet and his shoes, and they also leave

376
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 1: behind the bloody gun that they used to beat him with.

377
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 4: They leave all the evidence, right yep.

378
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,959
Speaker 1: But one officer actually chased and tackled Henderson to the ground,

379
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,400
Speaker 1: so Henderson was arrested, but McKinney gets away.

380
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 3: Wow, yeah, I mean, this is this story just gets

381
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 3: crazier and crazier.

382
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 4: So this is the thing. McKinny.

383
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,719
Speaker 3: He goes back to see his girlfriend, Kristen Price, and

384
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 3: she said that he came home around one point thirty

385
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 3: in the morning and he was completely freaking out, panicking,

386
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 3: and he just kept mumbling. She said, he kept mumbling

387
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 3: something like I did something horrible. I did something horrible.

388
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 1: So we need to take another break here, but we'll

389
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 1: talk about the aftermath and what happened to Matthew and

390
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: his assailants after we come back from a break.

391
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 2: So Matthew was left there alone to die that night,

392
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 2: and he was not found until the following day, at

393
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 2: about six pm, a passing mountain biker noticed what he

394
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: thought was a scarecrow tied to a fence, but as

395
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: he stopped to look a little bit closer, he realized

396
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:43,239
Speaker 2: it was a human being, a very small man. He

397
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 2: ran to a nearby home immediately and used their phone

398
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: because of course they didn't have cell phones at the

399
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 2: time or it wasn't easily accessible, so he immediately called authorities.

400
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 2: Matthew was taken to a hospital in Laramie and then

401
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: later transferred to Pudra Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado.

402
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: And just real quick, here was the official medical list

403
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: of injuries that Matthew sustained. Fractures to the back of

404
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: the head and front of the right ear, severe damage

405
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: to the brainstem like we mentioned earlier, and then around

406
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 1: a dozen small lacerations on the face, head and neck,

407
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: and so of course Matthew was comatose. Matthew's parents, Judy

408
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: and Dennis, flew in from Saudi Arabia that Friday night,

409
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: and the doctors told them that Matthew would likely never

410
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: emerge from his coma.

411
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 3: But meanwhile, the story of what happened to Matthew, it

412
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 3: blew up and it turned into a national news story.

413
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: And weirdly, as it turns out, the internet was still

414
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 3: pretty new at this point. I mean, that's really hard

415
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 3: to believe, but it was. It was, and it was

416
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 3: a big part of this case because apparently the Pudro

417
00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 3: Valley Hospital they got eight hundred thousand people that were

418
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,239
Speaker 3: have said to have checked in on Matthew and they

419
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: would go to this particular website to see how he

420
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 3: was doing every single day. This was like, you know,

421
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 3: the early version right of social media, right.

422
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: Pre social media, and a lot of.

423
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 3: The celebrities were speaking out and taking platforms, you know,

424
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: against this hate Chriss, like Oprah, like Ellen, and even

425
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: Nathan Lane, who I had read, you know, he had

426
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 3: come out publicly to his family. But when this happened,

427
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 3: when this horrific act happened to Matthew, he wanted more

428
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 3: than anything to do it publicly and he did so.

429
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 2: Ah, he came out because of Matthew.

430
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 4: Yeah he did.

431
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 3: And even the Shepherds even got a call from then

432
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: President Bill Clinton and he sent his best wishes for Matthew.

433
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: But sadly, on October twelve, nineteen ninety eight, in the

434
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: early hours of the morning, Matthew Shepherd succumbed to his injuries.

435
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: Matthew never regained consciousness after the attack. Matthew was just

436
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: twenty one years old. I remember his father's speech in

437
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: one of the trials and he said he was fifty

438
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 2: days shy of turning twenty two.

439
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: It's just a baby still, you know, when you think

440
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 3: about it. His life was just beginning, and the life

441
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: that he wanted to be involved in was being an

442
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 3: advocate for change.

443
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: One of the articles we read, I think someone said

444
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 2: that he had wanted to become president one day, right,

445
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: Like that's the type of person Matthew was. Like, you knew,

446
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: at least from everything everyone said about him, that he

447
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: was supposed to make a positive difference in this world

448
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: in life, and you know now he's doing it in death.

449
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure one big question that everybody has then

450
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: is what happened to his assailants, the people responsible for this,

451
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson.

452
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 2: I want to know what happened.

453
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, if you remember, McKinney fled from the police

454
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 1: when Henderson was arrested and went to his girlfriend, and

455
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: both men had girlfriends who helped them come up with

456
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: alibis and kind of give them cover. Kristen Price, McKinney's girlfriend,

457
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: took him to the hospital where he was admitted with

458
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: a hairline fracture to the school. I'm not really sure

459
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: how that happened. Police would later say that she and

460
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: Russell's girlfriend, a girl named Chassidy Pasley, then tried to

461
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: get rid of the evidence for them. So they together

462
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: drove fifty miles away, all the way to Cheyenne, Wyoming,

463
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: and there they took all of the evidence, Henderson's bloody

464
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: clothes and all, and they threw it away and then

465
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: they stashed his bloody shoes in a storage shed over

466
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: at Chastity's mom's house.

467
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 3: I mean, but apparently didn't do much good because they

468
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,959
Speaker 3: made themselves, they made themselves accessories to the crime and

469
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 3: bad ones right at that.

470
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: I mean, they told everybody everything.

471
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 3: I mean, they write exactly. But the police still found

472
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 3: their boyfriends, I mean obviously pretty quickly with all of

473
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: the evidence that they left. I mean, it's pretty hard

474
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 3: not to find. And they then arrested Aaron McKinny at

475
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 3: the hospital.

476
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: So as you can imagine. Both of them are then

477
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: charged with attempted murder, kidnapping, and also aggravated robbery that

478
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: was later upgraded to first degree murder, meaning that they

479
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: were both eligible for the death penalty. And then the

480
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: two men's girlfriends, Chastity Pasley and Kristen Price, were also

481
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: charged as accessories to the crime.

482
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, but get this, okay, Henderson actually made a deal

483
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: to avoid the death penalty. He agreed to testify against McKinney.

484
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: I mean, this really does not surprise me, It really doesn't.

485
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: I mean, based on how the whole murder happened, who

486
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: was in charge, and you know, all the things. So

487
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: he ended up being sentenced to two consecutive life terms

488
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: and avoided a trial altogether. So I guess they weren't

489
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: exactly the best of friends, I guess.

490
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 3: And no, when we think about, you know, the whole story,

491
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 3: As I said earlier, we always knew in this story

492
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 3: that Aaron McKinney was the leader of this particular pact,

493
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 3: right so, and we knew that he was an asshole

494
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: to him, and he did beat him and hit him

495
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 3: in the face and ordered him around.

496
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: So of course he's gone. We knew this was coming

497
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: to save your own life, Yeah, I get it. So

498
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: even crazier was McKinney's trial, and the prosecution put forth

499
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: the argument that the two men had pretended to be

500
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: gay in order to gain Matthew's trust and lure him

501
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: into their car, because why else would Matthew have gotten

502
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: into that truck, I mean really exactly had he would

503
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: have to feel safe, especially, you know, knowing how other

504
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: people are in that town. That was also actually backed

505
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: up by the testimony of Price, McKinney's girlfriend, who said

506
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: virtually the same thing, that they were pretending to be

507
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: gay to get him into the truck.

508
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: Well, because you know, McKinney came home that night to

509
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: her and essentially it just confessed everything to her, right right,

510
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: So I mean she got that straight out of McKinney's mouth.

511
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: So that made it pretty glaringly obvious testimony.

512
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 4: Right, I did horrible things?

513
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah right, Oh my gosh. But then the defense came

514
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: up with, in my humble opinion, they came up with

515
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: two completely asinine and disgusting arguments, and I'm going to

516
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: get pissed off about it. So Trevor, why don't you

517
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: tell us so that I'm not yelling into my microphone.

518
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 5: Right.

519
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: So the first one was that it was just an

520
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: attempted robbery gone wrong, that you know, all of this

521
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: was just about getting the thirty bucks in Matthew's wallet,

522
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: which is crazy, of course not. And then the other

523
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: one they use is another one that we've heard about

524
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: before and is a big point of contention in public forums,

525
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: and that is the gay panic defense. So the gay

526
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: panic defense suggests that when a straight person has some

527
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: sort of unwanted sexual advance made upon them by someone

528
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: of the same sex, which is what McKinney claimed that

529
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: Matthew had done to him in the car, that they

530
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: then go into a fit of rage, akin to I

531
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: guess temporary insanity. McKinney's lawyers believe this would prove that

532
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: the attack was not premeditated, right, that this was just

533
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: like a reaction, It was just like a gut instinct

534
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: and therefore was I guess less heinous in their eyes.

535
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: So people have used the gay panic defense before, and

536
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: I think since then we've all come to an agreement

537
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: as a society that it's nonsensical.

538
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 3: This isn't a thing, no, no, And thankfully, like in

539
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: July of twenty nineteen, in these particular states, they cannot

540
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: use this at all.

541
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 4: It's been banned.

542
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: And that's California, Illinois, Rhode Island, Nevada, Connecticut, Maine, and Hawaii.

543
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: That's every state that the gay panic defense is not

544
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: a valid argument.

545
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 3: Right right, it's banned, you cannot use it.

546
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: But how sad is that we have fifty states in

547
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: our beautiful country and that you did not read me

548
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: fifty states.

549
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 4: That's what gets me, so I didn't I know.

550
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean my understanding reading online on Reddit about

551
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: kind of legal practices is that the gay panic defense

552
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: is still kind of widely considered a joke, like it

553
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: rarely actually makes it through any sort of legitimate legal

554
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: proceeding anymore.

555
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,239
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I'll calm down a little bit.

556
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: No, No, I mean, it's like a super valid concern

557
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: to have, and it was a lot more common I

558
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: think back in the nineties and eighties and even early

559
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: two thousands. But yeah, it's come a long way for

560
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: what it's worth. You know, really, the only time you

561
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: ever see it anymore is in these kind of high

562
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: profile cases where they're kind of using it as a

563
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: hail Mary of some sort to get them off. But

564
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: you know, I think for whatever it is worth, you know,

565
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: the Matthew Shepherd case was a big public example of

566
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: how this panic defense can be used very poorly and

567
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: ultimately helped it, you know, kind of get blacklisted from

568
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: legal right defense proceedings.

569
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: So that's why we're here, right, We're here to make

570
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: up a positive difference. And you're so right because Matthew

571
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: his case, Thank goodness, the judge dismissed the gay panic defense,

572
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: and so the jury ultimately found Aaron McKinney guilty of

573
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: first degree murder. But in a very interesting and compassionate twist,

574
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: the Shepherds actually stepped in to save Aaron McKinney from

575
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: the death penalty. On November fifth, Judy Shepherd made a

576
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: deal with McKinney's lawyers to actually save his life, and

577
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: so Erin McKinney was sentenced to two consecutive life terms

578
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: without the possibility of parole. And I have to say,

579
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I honestly prior to today, not that

580
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: I didn't think that Dennis, you know, Matthew's father, you know,

581
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: was supportive of this, But I've always heard Judy right,

582
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: Judy kept saying, you know how she's forgiving him and

583
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: wanting to save his life. But when I watched Yvette

584
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: had me watch The Laramie Project today, which is an

585
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: incredible film.

586
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 4: Powerful, powerful, Yeah.

587
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: Based on you know, a play, but it's it's taken

588
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: from actual transcripts of what the people in Laramie said.

589
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: Like they came and they interviewed all these people and

590
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: they they they re enacted Dennis Shepherd's speech at Aaron

591
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: McKinney's trial, and he basically said to him, like Judy

592
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: and I believe in the death penalty. However, we believe

593
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: in healing, and that is why we're giving you life.

594
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: You deserve to die, but we're giving you the gift

595
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 2: of life so that you think about Matthew Shepherd ever.

596
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: Every single day.

597
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: Yep, oh every single day. Excuse me, chicken out was yeah,

598
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 3: that was that was so powerful. So there was one

599
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 3: sliver of good to come out of this tragedy, and

600
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 3: that was the Matthew Shepherd and James Bird Junior Hate

601
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: Crimes Prevention Act. So, Trevor, can you tell us a

602
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: little bit about this?

603
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: I sure can.

604
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: So.

605
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: The other name on that bill is James Byrd obviously,

606
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: and a little bit about him. He was a black

607
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: man who was decapitated by three white supremacists after they

608
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: dragged him behind their truck and the same year, nineteen

609
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: ninety eight. Those two names are attached to this bill,

610
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: and the bill does a few things, such as in

611
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: the federal Hate Crime Statute, it removes the requirement that

612
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: victims are targeted because they are engaged in a federally

613
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: protected activity such as voting or attending school, for example.

614
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: The bill also extends the hate Crime Statute to cover

615
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: violent crimes based on a person's gender, sexual orientation, gender identity,

616
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: or disability. None of those things were there before. The

617
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: bill authorizes the Department of Justice to assist state in

618
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: local governments and investigating or prosecuting hate crimes so they

619
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: can get the support of the FBI or other federal

620
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: agencies you know, when looking into cases like Matthew's. And

621
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: then lastly, it authorizes grants to jurisdictions local police forces

622
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: to help investigate and prosecute these hate crimes, so just

623
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: giving them more money, you know, more feed on the

624
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: ground to make sure it gets the proper investigation it needs. Anyways,

625
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: this bill was signed into law in two thousand and

626
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: nine by Barack Obama.

627
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: To me, like, this bill was so important, but it's

628
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 2: also rather heartbreaking that it took from nineteen ninety eight

629
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: to two thousand and nine to be signed into law.

630
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 4: Right.

631
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: I did find this report from the Human Rights Campaign

632
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: or better known as the HRC, which tells us that

633
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 2: hate crimes based on sexual orientation represent sixteen point seven

634
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: percent of hate crimes, and that's the third largest category

635
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 2: after race and religion, right.

636
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 3: Right, And I mean I can only imagine how much

637
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 3: worse those numbers are, especially in a small town like Laramie, Right,

638
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 3: I mean when we.

639
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 4: Think about it back in the nineties.

640
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean we can think about it back

641
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 3: in the nineties, but we can think about it now

642
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 3: to write still to this day, you know, but the

643
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 3: anti gay sentiment was was just even worse back then.

644
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 4: But we still have so much work to do, you know, still.

645
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And you have to remember too, that's

646
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 2: like the height of the AIDS epidemic. Right. It could

647
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: not have been easy for Matthew to live in that

648
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: environment and be out in that environment, especially in Laramie.

649
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: I mean, he probably couldn't even say that he was gay,

650
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: because you know, homosexuality had this paranoia and this stigma

651
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: that was surrounding it. I think it's much better now personally,

652
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: but you.

653
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, I want to maybe dig into that just

654
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: for a second, which is, you know, this concept of

655
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: being gay in small town America. I think it's something

656
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: you know, we don't really talk about a lot. No,

657
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: So Vanity Fair actually interviewed a number of local folks

658
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: over in Laramie just to get a better idea of

659
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: the culture and what people thought of gay people there.

660
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: And there's one quote in the article that says, quote,

661
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: a number of residents told me that they consider Matthew

662
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: Shepherd the first gay person that they ever quote unquote met,

663
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: So obviously people aren't exposed to a lot of gay

664
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: people in small towns like Laramie. There was one interviewee

665
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: named Milk Green who said he thought Matthew's murder was

666
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: quote unquote a stupid crime. But he also said I

667
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: have a hard time relating to homosexuality. I don't understand

668
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: it end quote. So again, there's a lot of I

669
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: don't want to say ignorance, but just lack of understanding

670
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: of gay people. In these small towns, right.

671
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 3: And I think it's just, you know, people are so

672
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 3: accustomed to growing up and being taught certain things right

673
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 3: by their parents, and they haven't stepped outside of that

674
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 3: world to do and know better. And that's why, that's

675
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 3: why we have so much work to do, so much

676
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: work to do so much work, especially like educating folks

677
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 3: on everything on gay people, on gay issues, right, and

678
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: this show and talking about these cases like it really

679
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 3: inspires me as a human being just to do better,

680
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: to be better at all times.

681
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Matthew being in this kind of small

682
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: town was maybe not the best thing for him. I

683
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: think it made him especially vulnerable to you know, be gay,

684
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: having gone through what he went through, you know, when

685
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: he was sexually assaulted, and then having to be you know,

686
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: in this small town that doesn't really understand him, especially

687
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: in the nineties, like we're all saying, you know, I

688
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: mean Russia, you live in Portland, Yeah, I live in

689
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: Los Angeles that you live in San Francisco. I think

690
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: for places like this, it's.

691
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: So much easier, to much safer.

692
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's safer, you know, as like queer people we

693
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: can you know, walk down the street and not really

694
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: fear as much for our lives but as yeah yeah,

695
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: but as those kind of you know, testimonies from those

696
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,479
Speaker 1: local Laramie people say, you know, they just they don't

697
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: understand gay people. They don't really know anything about gay people,

698
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: and that leads to problems, just like what happened to Matthew.

699
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: So I guess the big question here is what do

700
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: we do about that? I mean, we're making progress, but

701
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: how we change that?

702
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: I think there's two huge things that we can do. One,

703
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: I truly believe that representation matters. Like the great Harvey Milk,

704
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 2: that one of the most amazing gay icons. You know,

705
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 2: he told people like come out, like come out, be out,

706
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: Like the more gay people that people know, they'll realize like, oh,

707
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: like Rash is just you know, a great, nice person.

708
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: Trevor is a nice, beautiful person. You know, Like, representation matters.

709
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: I think the more people that are out, I think

710
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: the safer it will be because there'll be more of

711
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: us in numbers. But I think the a real, like

712
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: great answer is also creating safe spaces for gay people everywhere,

713
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: even in those small towns, especially in the small towns right.

714
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: Especially, And that's like when we were watching, you know,

715
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 3: the show The Laramie Project today, It's like there was

716
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 3: a community. You know, they were small in numbers to

717
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 3: begin with, but after this happened, after this tragedy happened,

718
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: the numbers started to grow, right, So more people came out,

719
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 3: and more people came out, Yes that have lived there,

720
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 3: you know, their whole lives, They came out. So, you know, unfortunately,

721
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: and we talk about this all the time, why does

722
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: it always take, you know, tragedy to make change happen. Well,

723
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 3: we're near the end of the show today, and that

724
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: means it's time for our Emua, our final message of

725
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 3: hope and healing. I'd like to use this opportunity to

726
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 3: honor Matthew, his family, and most of all, his mother, Judy.

727
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 3: You have to remember she chose to help save the

728
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 3: life of the man who killed her son. We can

729
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 3: all learn about unconditional compassion from Judy Shepherd.

730
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, she was faced with such an incredibly painful and

731
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: violent situation, yet she responded with kindness. And I think

732
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: we need more people like Judy Shepherd in the world

733
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: because maybe if we had more Judy Shepherds, more people

734
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: who led with kindness, we'd have less tragedies like the

735
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: murder of Matthew Shepherd. Lead with kindness, onward and upward.

736
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 4: Emua, emua.

737
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's our show for today. We'd love to hear

738
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: what you thought about today's discussion and if there's a

739
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: case you'd like us to cover. You can always find

740
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: us on social media or email us at Facing Evil

741
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: Pod at Tenderfoot dot.

742
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 4: Tv until next time.

743
00:42:52,800 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 7: Aloha.

744
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.

745
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Paquerero and a Vet Gentile.

746
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf

747
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald

748
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of

749
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Daffrico.

750
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on

751
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at

752
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,

753
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

754
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows,