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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight,

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Speaker 2: or shoot.

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Speaker 1: Us an email at trust Me pod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust for trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to you, and we never have a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome.

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Speaker 1: To Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 2: heavenly creatures who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth and this.

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Speaker 2: Week our guest is Lindsay Williams, makeup artist, podcaster and

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Speaker 2: former member of the Institute of Basic Life Principles or

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Speaker 2: the IBLP, whom you may have seen on the documentary

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Speaker 2: Shiny Happy People. In part two of our interview with Lindsay,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about how IBLP leader Bill Gothard

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Speaker 2: would recruit a series of young girls to work for him,

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Speaker 2: including Lindsay. What that was like her, including the inappropriate

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Speaker 2: questions and physical boundaries he repeatedly crossed.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into how controlling Bill was about who Lindsay dated,

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Speaker 1: and the website where women began connecting the dots about

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Speaker 1: his behavior leading to over thirty of them banding together

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Speaker 1: to make allegations against him, plus the iblp's connections to politics,

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Speaker 1: and how Lindsay managed to get out of the group thank.

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Speaker 2: God, Thank God. Heads Up topics today will include themes

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Speaker 2: of sexual abuse before we get into part two with Lindsey,

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Speaker 2: which is an absolutely incredible interview in my opinion. Megan,

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Speaker 2: what is your cultist thing this week?

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Speaker 1: You know, I keep meaning to say this one. It

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Speaker 1: happened a couple weeks ago, Culty. I'm not sure what

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Speaker 1: to call it exactly, but I'm sure most of you

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Speaker 1: have heard about it. It was in Gower, Missouri, when

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Speaker 1: I don't really know why, they dug up a nun

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Speaker 1: who'd been buried for four years, but when they did,

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Speaker 1: she didn't have any traces of like decay, so thousands

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Speaker 1: of people were visiting the body and calling her to

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Speaker 1: be a saint.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I didn't know about this until you

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Speaker 2: told me about this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is so fascinating.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure there's some like pretty reasonable scientific explanation for

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Speaker 2: the lack of decomposition of her body, But nonetheless, I

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Speaker 2: can totally see how that would be something that would

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Speaker 2: be an object of fascination and curiosity and excitement.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just curious why they unburied her.

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Speaker 2: That's true, I do think to that part, I would

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Speaker 2: they exhume her body?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Why did that happen?

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Speaker 1: No clue. But uh, sister, you know what, if you

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Speaker 1: want to go visit, I think she's still there, So

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Speaker 1: let's go visit. Yeah, why not?

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Speaker 2: My cultiest thing is I feel like, actually, along similar lines,

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Speaker 2: very tabloid us. Did you see this story about the

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Speaker 2: aliens in Vegas?

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Speaker 3: The alien sightings?

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Speaker 1: Of course, but tell us more.

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Speaker 2: I love alien news. It makes me so happy. I

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Speaker 2: don't care if it's fake. It's just so nice to

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Speaker 2: be thinking about anything other than humanity for a little

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Speaker 2: while and mysterious. So in Las Vegas in April, there

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Speaker 2: was a family that reported seeing two unknown entities falling

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Speaker 2: from the sky. They called the police and they said

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Speaker 2: they saw a big creature that was long ten feet tall,

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Speaker 2: and apparently the officer told the family that he was

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Speaker 2: looking into the claims because another officer saw something in

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Speaker 2: the sky that matched that description eight minutes earlier.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a blue light falling out of the sky.

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Speaker 2: So here's a quote from the guy who who saw

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Speaker 2: whatever it was. He said, there's like an eight foot

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Speaker 2: person beside it, and it has big eyes, and it's

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Speaker 2: looking at us, and it's still there in my backyard.

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Speaker 2: I swear to God, this is not a joke. This

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Speaker 2: is actually we are terrified. So you described them as

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Speaker 2: between eight and ten feet tall and appearing like aliens

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Speaker 2: with big mouths and big shiny eyes.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a fun story. Is it real? Probably not?

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Speaker 3: But do I love it? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I guess. The only question I have is like, why

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Speaker 1: didn't you take a picture of it? But it would

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Speaker 1: become as scary. I mean, they said they were frozen

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Speaker 1: with fear. It's not like you can grab your camera

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Speaker 1: and be like, hey, do you mind if I use

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Speaker 1: the flash.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, though, I think that'd be the first

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Speaker 2: thing I would dig.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you could.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you could even.

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Speaker 2: Move maybe maybe maybe It is funny though, how they're conveniently.

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Speaker 3: Often isn't something recording anything?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Nearby?

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Speaker 2: But you know, this coincides with the recent there's been

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Speaker 2: a lot of just like UAP Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, which

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Speaker 2: is a new name for UFO's news lately. Most of

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Speaker 2: it's like probably pretty debunkable. There's this whistleblower who came out,

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Speaker 2: but he seems to be less and less of a

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Speaker 2: reliable source.

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Speaker 3: This story keeps.

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Speaker 2: Getting bigger and bigger, but he didn't personally witness any

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's sad.

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Speaker 2: I want it to be real, but also maybe it's

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Speaker 2: better if it isn't, because I don't think we are

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Speaker 2: a very evolved species at the moment, so maybe it

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Speaker 2: would be terrible if.

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Speaker 4: This were all.

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Speaker 1: You know, speaking of the Catholic Church and then aliens.

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Speaker 1: What really made me believe in aliens was I don't

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Speaker 1: know how many years ago, but the Catholic Church released

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Speaker 1: a statement that was like, if aliens are real, that

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Speaker 1: does not mean Jesus Christ is not our savior. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, they're preparing us.

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Speaker 3: And not freak out.

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Speaker 4: So hilarious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, at this point, there's so

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Speaker 2: much congressional interest in this subject and so much like

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Speaker 2: demand for transparency.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I don't understand. Why are they always crashing?

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Speaker 3: Listen?

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Speaker 2: They're probably not crashing ninety eight percent at the time,

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Speaker 2: and it's our cognitive bias that I'm.

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Speaker 1: Reading about was how they're reverse engineering the crashes and like, ye,

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Speaker 1: but why what are they do? Are they mean backing

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Speaker 1: out of a parking garage?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: It's very strange.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's like early aliens and they haven't like evolved

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Speaker 2: their technology enough to not just crash it all. If

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Speaker 2: they are crashing that much, we would all be seeing

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Speaker 2: aliens more.

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Speaker 3: Though, Let's be real, early Aliens.

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Speaker 1: They've been here since the Egyptians. Aren't they evolving at all?

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Speaker 1: Why weren't they crashing then? And all the Egyptian carvings

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Speaker 1: are like flying and shit, I don't get it.

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Speaker 3: Listen, I don't either.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna be one of those things that will just

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Speaker 2: remain uncertain until more information comes to light. And for now,

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna revel in the deliciousness of alien news.

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Speaker 1: Me too.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 1: I hope they're there. Should we talk to Lenz?

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Speaker 3: Let's do it. The show is sponsored by Betterhelp.

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Speaker 1: How much time do you spend on yourself in a

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Speaker 1: given week versus how much time do you spend on

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Speaker 1: other people? How do you balance the two.

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Speaker 2: It's so easy to get caught up in what everyone

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Speaker 2: else needs from you and never take a moment to

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Speaker 2: think about what you need from yourself. For example, me,

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, I really needed to talk

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Speaker 2: to someone about how much anxiety I was having about

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Speaker 2: my perfectionism stuff. Ugh.

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Speaker 1: But when we spend all of our time giving it

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Speaker 1: can leave us feeling stretched, thin and burned out. Therapy

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Speaker 1: can give you the tools to find more balance in

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Speaker 1: your life so you can keep supporting others without leaving

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Speaker 1: yourself behind.

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Speaker 2: And I really, I know we say it all the time,

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Speaker 2: but I'm gonna say it again.

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Speaker 3: Everyone should go to therapy.

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Speaker 2: What I love about Betterhelp is that you can so

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Speaker 2: easily find a different therapist if one is not working

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Speaker 2: for you, because it's very important to make sure that

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Speaker 2: it's the right fit.

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Speaker 1: If you're thinking of starting therapy, get Better Help a try, and.

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Speaker 2: It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited

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Speaker 1: with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no

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Speaker 3: Find more balance with better Help.

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Speaker 2: That's Better Help h e LP dot com slash trust.

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Speaker 2: So headquarters is almost like a missionary training center. It's

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Speaker 2: the corporate headquarters. Okay, literally the corporate headquarters.

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Speaker 5: It's where everything is printed, It's where all of the

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Speaker 5: offices are, it's where all the money flows, the finance department,

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Speaker 5: it's where the board resides.

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Speaker 4: Like it is.

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Speaker 2: The functioning heart of everything is the corporate headquarters. It's

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Speaker 2: a huge organization. How many people are in that?

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Speaker 1: So many people?

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Speaker 5: Well, now not so many, okay, but back in the

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Speaker 5: eighties and nineties it was huge.

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Speaker 1: How many do you think that though?

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Speaker 4: Oh gosh, I don't even know if I can put

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Speaker 4: a number on it.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I would say they were least one hundred

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Speaker 5: fifty people probably running each center, and then at headquarters.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure we had one to two hundred people. I'm

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Speaker 5: sure several thousand across the world.

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Speaker 2: Time magazine says IBLP has shared estimates that over two

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Speaker 2: million people have attended their seminars, but attending their seminars

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Speaker 2: as members.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. So do you think it's like hundreds

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Speaker 3: of thousands.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so as far as as far as members would go,

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Speaker 5: I would say like members total for ATI, if my

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Speaker 5: recollection serves me. The Advanced Training Institute, when we would

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Speaker 5: do the seminars, the Family seminars once a year, it

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Speaker 5: was in the tens of thousands.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is a big thing all over the world.

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Speaker 3: It was.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I mean there are still they are still functioning

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Speaker 5: in parts of the world, but back in the eighties

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Speaker 5: and nineties.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 5: It was all over the place, and he was expanding rapidly,

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Speaker 5: and people like Hobby Lobby were giving him locations for

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Speaker 5: like a dollar, and he could just get in there

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Speaker 5: with his you know, his troops, people from Alert and

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Speaker 5: construction crews, and they would come in and they would

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Speaker 5: gut these hotels and then turn them into these training centers.

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Speaker 3: Wow. So tell us more about the experience of interacting

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Speaker 3: with Bill once you were at headquarters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So I get to headquarters and the funny thing was

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Speaker 5: there there are certain like barriers to entry, like little

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Speaker 5: things that you have to do in order to work

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Speaker 5: at some of these places, and it should have been

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Speaker 5: a telltale sign to me, but again I didn't know

231
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Speaker 5: anything at the time. But he wanted me to stop

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Speaker 5: through Indianapolis on the way to headquarters, on the way

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Speaker 5: to Oakbrook, Illinois, and take the counseling seminar first, because

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Speaker 5: if you're going to be at headquarters, you need to

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Speaker 5: have gone, you know, through two weeks of counseling seminar, because.

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Speaker 3: That's going to make you totally effective for whatever.

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Speaker 4: Job you're going to do.

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Speaker 5: It's just more extended information from the institute and basic

239
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Speaker 5: life principles, Basic and seminar.

240
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Speaker 3: It's just more.

241
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Speaker 5: Stuff of how to like get into the minds of

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Speaker 5: people and help them through scripture. And you know, it's

243
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Speaker 5: a refresher course if you're homeschooled, because you you know

244
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Speaker 5: in this stuff because.

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Speaker 4: You already know what you know.

246
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Speaker 5: But I went on to headquarters and I very quickly

247
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Speaker 5: learned that I was not liked.

248
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Speaker 3: Oh no.

249
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Speaker 5: From the second I landed there, it was just like,

250
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 5: oh no, I have there's something wrong why my presence?

251
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Speaker 5: Because I learned later I was a got third girl.

252
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Speaker 5: I did not get to headquarters because like the right way.

253
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Speaker 5: I was brought there because I caught his eye. And

254
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Speaker 5: everyone else over here is toil in a way, doing

255
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Speaker 5: all of these different you know, checking all the boxes

256
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,839
Speaker 5: in order to even ask or approach headquarters, like can

257
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Speaker 5: my child come and work at headquarters? Look at all

258
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Speaker 5: the things they've done, Look at all of the ministry

259
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Speaker 5: trips that they've taken, look at all of the training

260
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Speaker 5: centers they've worked at. Or someone puts in six years

261
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Speaker 5: in Indianapolis and then somehow they get plucked and they're

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Speaker 5: brought up to headquarters. Here, I am some girl in Atlanta,

263
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Speaker 5: a children's institute in a breakfast room boom. I'm also

264
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Speaker 5: automatically at headquarters.

265
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Speaker 1: It's like a Scientology Org member suddenly being at this

266
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Speaker 1: the Hollywood Center. Like, you know, it's just but he

267
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Speaker 1: had a certain type of girls, Is that correct?

268
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Speaker 4: Yes?

269
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Speaker 3: He?

270
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Speaker 5: I mean I know that there are some some descriptions

271
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Speaker 5: that have been had about that. They were all blonde

272
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Speaker 5: and skinny. They were bright and vivacious, is how I

273
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Speaker 5: see it.

274
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Speaker 4: But yes, whar wey blonde?

275
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Speaker 5: Yes were I think honestly the biggest tell that was

276
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Speaker 5: the thread for all of us is we were broken

277
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Speaker 5: birds with damaged father relationships, and he parayed upon that immediately.

278
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Speaker 4: He would sus it out and.

279
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Speaker 3: Were these girls of age? You were eighteen?

280
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Speaker 4: Right? I was eighteen.

281
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,959
Speaker 5: My mental state was probably fourteen fifteen. My maturity level

282
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Speaker 5: was not obviously there because I was so stifled because

283
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Speaker 5: when I was first on TikTok, I would say like, yeah,

284
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Speaker 5: I was seventeen years old, because I thought I was

285
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Speaker 5: a lot younger. I was eighteen, But I'm like, this

286
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Speaker 5: is this is splitting hairs on my maturity.

287
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Speaker 3: Level and my uh, I mean, this man is in

288
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Speaker 3: his how old was he? He was in his fifties

289
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Speaker 3: or early sixties at this point.

290
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Speaker 5: But there were when I was at headquarters, he would

291
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 5: bring other girls and there were some that were getting

292
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Speaker 5: into fifteen, and I was just.

293
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Speaker 4: Like, what is going?

294
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Speaker 3: What is this?

295
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:13,840
Speaker 2: Like?

296
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,119
Speaker 3: Why is it always girls?

297
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Speaker 5: It's never bois you know, the boys come through other means,

298
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Speaker 5: but like he's always bringing the ladies. But our interactions

299
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Speaker 5: very were like pretty much instant, because again he knew,

300
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,360
Speaker 5: he knew about a lot of different things in my

301
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 5: life and my home life, and he very quickly told

302
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 5: me like I didn't know my birth father, and so

303
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,199
Speaker 5: he was like Oh, well, that makes you a bastard

304
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Speaker 5: and I will be a father figure for you. And

305
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Speaker 5: I'm like, even though I had a tumultuous relationship with

306
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 5: my stepfather, he was still my dad. I'm like, on

307
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 5: all technicalities, sir, yeah, I do have an authority.

308
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,559
Speaker 1: How do you think Bill Gothard was able to sniff

309
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,240
Speaker 1: out girls with bad father relationships?

310
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 2: Because that's what abusers do, That's what predators do.

311
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Speaker 5: They sense it in people. I can't tell you there's

312
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 5: a sixth sense. And I think he knew the questions

313
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 5: to ask, right, and he clearly knows how we're being raised.

314
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,360
Speaker 5: He I think that the virgin question is the thing

315
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 5: that he uses first as like you to see how

316
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 5: do they respond if you're like, well no or yes

317
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 5: I am, but we stutter and we like our sexuality

318
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 5: is weird.

319
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Speaker 4: We don't know how to talk about that. Mmm, there's

320
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 4: something here. Yeah, you know what.

321
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Speaker 5: I just think that because I've heard it so many

322
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,920
Speaker 5: times now. I thought I was alone in that. I

323
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,520
Speaker 5: thought was just me, and then you start everybody starts

324
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,240
Speaker 5: to speak, and you realize, wow, I'm not alone in this.

325
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Speaker 5: He was doing this to everybody, and it's one of

326
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Speaker 5: the first questions that he asks, So it makes sense.

327
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Speaker 2: You know, it's testing exactly, it's testing the boundaries, seeing

328
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 2: how much they can they're going to allow him to

329
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 2: ask exactly and like how secure they seem. And the

330
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Speaker 2: father questions, I mean, it seems like he thought, probably

331
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Speaker 2: thought you were pretty, and then asked the questions and

332
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Speaker 2: you gave him the correct answers, the ones that he wanted,

333
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 2: the right responses. So yeah, you're going to get fast

334
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,120
Speaker 2: tracked to get and hang out with Bill all the time, client,

335
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 2: willing to follow whatever he tells me to do. So

336
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 2: when I first got to headquarters again, like I said,

337
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:21,040
Speaker 2: I knew that I was not really welcome by the women,

338
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:22,360
Speaker 2: and it.

339
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,560
Speaker 5: Was pretty obvious. I felt like they were just entertaining

340
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 5: my existence. And Bill every night would ask me to

341
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Speaker 5: come up to his office and I would.

342
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Speaker 4: I have my little tote bag.

343
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Speaker 3: I'll never forget.

344
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Speaker 4: I had my toe bag, I had my Bible, my notebook,

345
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,120
Speaker 4: and a pin. We didn't have laptops.

346
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Speaker 5: Another amazing flax kidding, but anyway, I would sit at

347
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Speaker 5: his desk and I was He had two desks that

348
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,440
Speaker 5: were kind of in a V shape, and he was

349
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 5: in the point of the v and so then I'm

350
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 5: sitting on one side of the long desk and then

351
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 5: his assistant is on the other side of the other

352
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 5: desk with a computer, and he would just sit there

353
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 5: and like, Oh, today, we're going to write the newsletter

354
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,440
Speaker 5: for the month for the homeschooling families. And he would

355
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 5: send out a newsletter every month and he would just

356
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,280
Speaker 5: lean back in his chair and just dictate the letter,

357
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,920
Speaker 5: and then his assistant would read it back and he'd

358
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 5: be like, oh, yeah, no, no change that, or oh no,

359
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,520
Speaker 5: we did, let's do that. He never opened his Bible,

360
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 5: he never referenced anything. It just was coming out of

361
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 5: his head. And I'm thinking, oh, I'm here because he

362
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,800
Speaker 5: wants me to look up a scripture. And sometimes I

363
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 5: would be really bored out of my mind because this

364
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 5: will go on for hours, and I would just like

365
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 5: I would open the Bible and be like, oh, that's

366
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 5: an interesting scripture. Oh he didn't use the whole scripture

367
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,160
Speaker 5: like he just and then I was like, wait, does

368
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:42,720
Speaker 5: this even have to do with what he just said?

369
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 5: And I'm like, I don't know. I don't want to

370
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,160
Speaker 5: get into theology. I was never into like, so I

371
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 5: was like that's weird. And then he never asked me

372
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 5: to write notes or anything. But so I would just

373
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 5: sit there and my booty would get so numb, and

374
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 5: I'm just sitting there and I'm like, ah, and I

375
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,280
Speaker 5: felt like I was just like a dolly that he

376
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 5: was setting in office so that he would be impressing

377
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 5: you or something maybe or I just need somebody else

378
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 5: to be sitting here or look at me. Yeah, And

379
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 5: sometimes he would like cut a narcoll epsey out, like

380
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 5: he would just kind of like he just falls nod

381
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 5: off and fall asleep in his chair, and I'd look

382
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 5: over at the assistant.

383
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,200
Speaker 3: Like he's boring even himself, like what do we do?

384
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:21,040
Speaker 4: What do I do?

385
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,119
Speaker 5: Can I can I just like leave or I'll go

386
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,200
Speaker 5: to the breastroom and then I'll leave. And we would

387
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 5: just sit there and then he would come back and

388
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 5: be like, so, now let's write a letter to the

389
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 5: men's whatever. And I'm like, what the world is going on?

390
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 5: And I'm like, is he meditating? Is he praying? Maybe

391
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 5: I just need to leave him be. And again, in that.

392
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,439
Speaker 2: First week that I was there, he his assistant was

393
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 2: wrapping up to leave. I thought we were going to

394
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 2: leave and his assistant was I could tell that there

395
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 2: was like hesitation, and and then Bill was like, oh,

396
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 2: you can go on ahead, we'll be we'll follow behind

397
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,000
Speaker 2: in a few minutes. And I didn't think anything of it,

398
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 2: but I just noticed the hesitation and his assistant so

399
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,360
Speaker 2: is this since like okay, well, i'll see you guys

400
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 2: in the morning, and he went out.

401
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 5: So then Bill was like, oh, come over here to

402
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,479
Speaker 5: the couch, let's pray. And I was like, oh, okay.

403
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,000
Speaker 5: So I go to sit on the couch and he's like,

404
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 5: oh no, no, We're gonna kneel and pray before the

405
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 5: Lord for your family and for healing.

406
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 4: And I'm like okay.

407
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,840
Speaker 5: So we get out down on our knees on the

408
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,679
Speaker 5: red carpet, on the red velvet couch, and we I

409
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,919
Speaker 5: go to pray and I've clasped my own hands together

410
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,720
Speaker 5: and he grabs my hand and holds it with his hand.

411
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 5: So now I'm like, I don't know what to do

412
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,680
Speaker 5: with this hand. I'm like just weird, you know, this,

413
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 5: like what's going on? And I hadn't really held hands

414
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 5: with him at this point, and I know people like, well,

415
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 5: it's prayer. No, I'm holding hands with a grown ass man,

416
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,360
Speaker 5: and I'm not supposed to be touching men, and they're

417
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 5: not supposed.

418
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 4: To be touching me.

419
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:48,640
Speaker 1: Have a six central.

420
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 5: It's the six central, absolutely, the six central. It just

421
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,160
Speaker 5: is a way to say, don't touch each other.

422
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 1: Stay six inches.

423
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, stay six inches away, But it really should be

424
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,439
Speaker 5: six feet away, you know, because none of us we're like,

425
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 5: oh six inches, Look how close that is. Just it

426
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 5: just was a stay away from each other.

427
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 1: He's not the sixth centul is not in the fact

428
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 1: he is holding your hand.

429
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,640
Speaker 4: Apparently it doesn't apply to him.

430
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, because holding hands is even a big deal, like

431
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,439
Speaker 1: yeahing the duggers. It's like it's in hands.

432
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is intimacy at that point. It is your

433
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 5: first point of contact with the opposite gender, unless it's

434
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,159
Speaker 5: you know, your little brothers or your father or something,

435
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,000
Speaker 5: which I doubt you even hold hands with your father.

436
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,119
Speaker 5: It's weird in this culture. So yeah, So he holds

437
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 5: my hand and I'm like okay. So he starts praying,

438
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,120
Speaker 5: and I'm like, at least I don't have to perform

439
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 5: and pray, right, because I'm I'm really frazzled, but I'm

440
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 5: solid on the outside, right, he doesn't know I'm nervous.

441
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 4: Or things don't make sense.

442
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 5: And as he's praying, he starts to push the profile

443
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 5: of his body against the profile of mine, Like it's

444
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,639
Speaker 5: his shoulder, and then it's his elbow, and then it's

445
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 5: his hip, and then his thigh and his knee and

446
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 5: his foot and then his foot is like kind of

447
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 5: like foot seeing with you know, you're you're praying with

448
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 5: your feet bent back, and he's like kind of like

449
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 5: messing with his foot against he's time, and he's praying

450
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,160
Speaker 5: the whole time, Lord Father, God, Dah dah dah blah

451
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 5: blah blah blah.

452
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 4: I couldn't tell you a thing, he said.

453
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,719
Speaker 3: I got it because I was just like, what is happening?

454
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 4: What is happening? What is happening?

455
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 3: What is that?

456
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:20,120
Speaker 4: What is that? What is this?

457
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:20,440
Speaker 3: Is this?

458
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 4: Is this just like a different way to pray?

459
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 3: Is this? Like?

460
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 5: Why is never put? And nobody's ever told me about

461
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 5: this before? And like, but he's really hot, Like I'm

462
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 5: getting really warm and I just.

463
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 2: He was like, like he's really hot his physical Yeah, sorry, Oh,

464
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 2: I don't mean like he's so attractive.

465
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 1: No, Like.

466
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 4: When I came out so.

467
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 5: Wrong, I was just getting physically warm, like, and it

468
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 5: was warm in the room and we're on a thick

469
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,439
Speaker 5: carpet and a velvet couch, and I'm just like, I

470
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 5: can't breathe. But I probably didn't realize I was also

471
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 5: going to into a mental panic attack of like what

472
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 5: is this? And and then all of this, like my

473
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 5: mind is reeling, and all of a sudden, he leans

474
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 5: his head against mine and just starts nudging, and I'm like,

475
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 5: what is do I nudge back?

476
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 4: And before I did, I was like, oh, he wants

477
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 4: me to pray. Oh silly of me.

478
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 5: And so I prayed, and I know that my voice

479
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 5: was super quiet because I felt like I couldn't even

480
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 5: get anything outside of myself. And we finished praying, and

481
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 5: his head was against mine the whole time that we

482
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 5: were praying, and then he squeezed my hand the whole

483
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 5: time too. He was rubbing his thumb like he was

484
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 5: active with his thumb on my hand, and then his

485
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 5: foot didn't stop, and I was just like, Okay, this

486
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 5: is very bizarre, and I'm just gonna say and amen,

487
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 5: and he's like, praise the Lord. And I stood up

488
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 5: as quick as I could, and I stepped away and

489
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 5: I just walked over and got my tote bag.

490
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 3: I was like, I just don't know what that was.

491
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 5: And he was like, okay, Lindsey, well we'll see you

492
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 5: in the morning. And I'm like, okay, good night, and

493
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 5: I just off I went, and I walked all the

494
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 5: way back home in the dark, and I was crying,

495
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 5: partly because I just was like, I don't know what

496
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 5: this is.

497
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 4: And then I knew I had no one to that

498
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 4: I could ask.

499
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: Nobody was gonna call my parents analysis yeah, yeah, I

500
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 2: wasn't gonna tell anybody.

501
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,479
Speaker 3: The MultiMate of forty no yeah.

502
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,119
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503
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521
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522
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523
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524
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525
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526
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527
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: Had you ever hold.

528
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 5: Hands with anyone at that point, A few people, but

529
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 5: not in a romantic way, and as far as like yeah,

530
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 5: as far as like boys really like you know, an

531
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 5: intimate moment for longer than two minutes or a minute.

532
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 4: No, And in my home there wasn't.

533
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 2: Physical interaction with people like except for discipline.

534
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: So no. And you were never taught how to say

535
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: no or to how.

536
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,959
Speaker 5: To course, not how you're supposed to be joyfully available

537
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 5: at all times, even and I don't even mean in

538
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 5: a sexual context, just as a human being, right, Yeah,

539
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 5: even if you're confused and flustered and frustrated, it doesn't matter.

540
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 4: You just need to be there.

541
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: Also, you have been taught that if anything happens to

542
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 2: your body, it's your fault.

543
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 3: So exactly, I must get done and I must have

544
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: done something.

545
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

546
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 5: Well I never I didn't always equate to the gift part,

547
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 5: but yeah, but I was just like, I don't know,

548
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 5: I what this is. Yeah, and this happened like three

549
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 5: times a week for months, for months, and I just.

550
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: Steeled myself that like this is going to happen. The

551
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: assistant's going to leave, You're going to go over there.

552
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: And if there was something that happened in the family,

553
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 2: I can't even recall if it was like I would

554
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: tell him like oh yeah, or he would ask like,

555
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: is what's going on with your family? How are things

556
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: going with the situation or that, and I would tell

557
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 2: him and then well we'll pray tonight. It was another

558
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: reason I avoid going to lunches because if he saw me,

559
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 2: because the where I worked was down at the big

560
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: production center building. And then I would walk up to

561
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 2: the staff center where the kitchens were for lunch, and

562
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: that's where his office was, So I would avoid going

563
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: around where his window was because I didn't want him

564
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: to see that I was there. I would try to

565
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: hide in corners or stay where there were like a

566
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: ton of different students where like maybe he wouldn't see me,

567
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: but I mean, he knows who he's looking for, so

568
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: if I saw him coming down the stairs, sometimes I'd

569
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: like run to the restroom or just be like, you

570
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: know what, maybe I just don't want him to see

571
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 2: me today because if he sees me, then he's gonna say,

572
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: come up and pray tonight.

573
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 4: And how I'm not. I can't deny.

574
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: That, you know, lonely because none of the other girls

575
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: are being nice to you.

576
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 3: And it's just it took a while for girls to

577
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: warm up to me.

578
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: Over these months that he like slowly progressed more head

579
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: on your shoulder, more like.

580
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 3: No, he stayed.

581
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 5: He stayed with that, which and to be really honest

582
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 5: with you, it never crossed my mind that he would

583
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 5: try other things. And I still to this day think

584
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 5: it's that's just the conditioning of my own innocence that

585
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 5: I and naivete that I didn't and I didn't ever

586
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 5: even think, oh, he might try.

587
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 4: To do more. And now I look at it, going,

588
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: how in the world didn't he?

589
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

590
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 3: I mean how long did that go on?

591
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: For?

592
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 3: Months? Yeah?

593
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 5: And then and then it would taper off, and every

594
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 5: now and then he would have me come up. But

595
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 5: I very sarcastically say that he had He would bring

596
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 5: in the flavor of the month and I would I

597
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 5: within like maybe five six months or so, I would

598
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 5: kind of get phased out a little because he would

599
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 5: have the next girl, his next gothre girl would be there.

600
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 5: And I hate to admit it, but I was relieved

601
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 5: that I wasn't having to deal with him. And I

602
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 5: knew that I couldn't tell anybody what I was enduring

603
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 5: and experiencing because it would be my fault and I

604
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 5: would get sent home. And I would rather deal with

605
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 5: his prayer times than be back in my home life. Right,

606
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 5: And so you're in this horrible conundrum.

607
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: The things that he would continue to do that were

608
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 2: like would freak me out were the foot seeing he

609
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: would have me when we would drive in the van

610
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: down to Indianapolis and back.

611
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 4: He would invite me to take off my shoes.

612
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: He would do the same, and then he would rub

613
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: his sack socks against my pantyhose feet.

614
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 5: It didn't matter where I was. If I was sitting

615
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 5: across the table from him, his feet would find me.

616
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 5: If when we were at one of the delegations in Romania,

617
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 5: his feet would find me. I would try to sit

618
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 5: like two to three seats away so that he couldn't.

619
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 5: He'd be like, well, lindsay come over here, and I'm like, oh,

620
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 5: my word, man, Like I.

621
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: Don't even know.

622
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 5: I didn't even know if foots were fetishes. I didn't

623
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 5: know what fetishes were, but like, this man has a

624
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 5: fit fetish.

625
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: So meanwhile, everybody at the table is talking about the

626
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: strictest shit in the world, and you're getting your foot

627
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: played with. Yeah, we're trying to bring leading in.

628
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're trying to bring character to Romania.

629
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 5: And he's under tiddling with my feet and we're and

630
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 5: he's also having conversations with delegates.

631
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 4: It happened at the road.

632
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 5: We had a Romania delegation come to headquarters, and I'll

633
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 5: never forget this, Like they are talking about all of

634
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 5: this like deep stuff of like trying to help these

635
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 5: people that are like suffering for the Lord, and he

636
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 5: wants to help them and bring stuff in. And the

637
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 5: whole time his foot is rubbing mine and I had

638
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 5: my feet hooked around the chair, trying to get behind

639
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 5: the legs of the chair so that he would just

640
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 5: find the chair. And you can feel his foot like searching,

641
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 5: where is where?

642
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 4: Where are where art thou feet?

643
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: You know?

644
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 4: And I'm like, they're not here. They're at the very

645
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 4: back of the chair. And I must look so weird

646
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 4: to everybody in the room.

647
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 3: Feet off the floor.

648
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm like, no, you won't.

649
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, you would just try to like pull as far

650
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 5: back as you could and be like, don't you're a

651
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 5: short man.

652
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 4: Your legs will not reach this far. It's not. And meanwhile,

653
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 4: there is another.

654
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 5: One of the Romanian delegates is over here like doodling

655
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 5: on a piece of paper or whatever. And he gets

656
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 5: up and he walks over to Bill and he hands

657
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 5: Bill the paper and you know, I'm curious, some traumatizing

658
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 5: board and I'm like, what's going on?

659
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 4: What's that about?

660
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 5: And then Bill smiles so big, and he looks at

661
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 5: he looks at me, and he turns the it around

662
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 5: and it's an illustration of me. And he was like,

663
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 5: look at that bright, shining countenance. And I was just like,

664
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 5: what is this?

665
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 4: What am I?

666
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: I'm a show pony for you. Yeah, I'm just a

667
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 3: show pony.

668
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 2: I just can't, like, I imagine myself in that situation and

669
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: the dread. I feel like you'd have to feel just

670
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: around this person at all times. And yeah, the loneliness

671
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: and the isolation with that, because who.

672
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: Can you do?

673
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 3: The insecure on it? I was so insecure.

674
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: And also I can't imagine that, like what you're describing

675
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: is not like literal sexual content. It's not like overt

676
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 2: sexual contact. So that seems even more confusing because you're like, well,

677
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: he's not touching my vagina? Right?

678
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 4: So am I crazy? Am I misperceiving this? Right?

679
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: Am I the one with bad thoughts? Even?

680
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 5: But like I said, though, I never even got to

681
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 5: that point, like, I think that if he had tried

682
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 5: to caress me in any other.

683
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: Way, I think I would have lost it.

684
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 4: I think I was.

685
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 5: I was on tender hooks as it was, from so

686
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 5: much systemic abuse in as a whole that I think

687
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 5: if he had tried to do anything like that, I

688
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 5: would have gone crazy.

689
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: He could probably sense.

690
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 5: That, and maybe because I was very like, it's not

691
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 5: like in these prayer times. I was getting all like, yes,

692
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 5: I love cuddling here as we pray.

693
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 4: Like I was rigid, right.

694
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 5: But I was still compliant that I would come and

695
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 5: I would pray with him. I believe everyone who has

696
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 5: come forward. And the website Recovering Grace. I found that website,

697
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 5: and I had been utterly alone in my own head.

698
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 5: My husband knew what had happened.

699
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: He worked at headquarters, that's how we met, but he

700
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: knew the story. He's always known, but he just knew that.

701
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: For me, it was like, I just don't ever want

702
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: to go back to this.

703
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 5: And when I found the Recovering Grace website and I

704
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 5: read it all in a day, that whole website, and

705
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 5: I could not believe how their stories were my stories.

706
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 5: And then one of my friends. I knew it was

707
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 5: my friend because she mentioned me, not by name, but

708
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 5: by experience, like this happened to my roommate. She had

709
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 5: lost a ton of weight because I was in the

710
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 5: hospital for a blood clot. I'd lost like probably fifteen

711
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 5: or twenty pounds, and Bill was so fixated on how

712
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 5: great I looked. I had bruises in my elbows from

713
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,239
Speaker 5: all the blood draws, you know, they're trying to make

714
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 5: sure I didn't have another clot in my body.

715
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 4: And there's this picture.

716
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 5: I don't have the picture anymore because all my photos

717
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 5: got destroyed in my mother's basement flood, but there were

718
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 5: pictures of me like I'm standing there with my you know,

719
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 5: my hands are on the back of a chair, and

720
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 5: it looks like I'm a complete drug addict. Like I'm

721
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 5: so bruised and I'm so emaciated, and Bill is praising

722
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 5: me during meetings and stuff that I look so incredible.

723
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 4: Wow.

724
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: So this website is basically a website that do we.

725
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 4: Know who started it?

726
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: John Cornish and several others, I'm not sure all of

727
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: the names, but it was XATI people that started it.

728
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: So all these people start sharing their stories of their

729
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 2: experiences with Bill specifically or with this with Bill with.

730
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 5: Bill, and it was all anonymous, which I think was

731
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 5: very brilliant of them to do, obviously, but I knew.

732
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 5: I didn't question it at all. I'm like, yes, I

733
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 5: know his behavior and it wasn't just me. I would

734
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 5: walk by that office and seeing him pray with other girls.

735
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 5: I knew without a shadow of adult that these were true,

736
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 5: and he would.

737
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: Use like rumors started coming out about him, and suddenly

738
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: he got really into Matthew eighteen. Don't gossip, don't talk

739
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: to each other. And so he was.

740
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 5: Kind of already in that, honestly, like give a good report,

741
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 5: Like don't give bad reports, especially of headquarters in the

742
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 5: training centers, Like that's not godly.

743
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: No.

744
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 5: And look, I'm not going to go and talk to

745
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: any of the women about it because I knew what

746
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 5: everyone knew. They were going to say that I was

747
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 5: doing something. And look, I had wonderful friends at headquarters.

748
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 5: I'm not saying everybody knew. I thought everyone was out

749
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 5: to get me. There were beautiful souls that were there

750
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 5: that we were friends for very long time, and I

751
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 5: are forever appreciative of them. But I knew that when

752
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 5: it came to this, when it comes to morality, there

753
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 5: is a solid line.

754
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 4: With these people.

755
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 5: Sexual yes, yes, sexual morality, and it is it comes

756
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 5: down to holding a hand or whatever, because remember, men

757
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 5: can't control themselves. Women can control themselves, therefore controlling men

758
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 5: and how they act. And so if I'm in there,

759
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 5: and I'm feeling this. Either I have misperceived it or

760
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 5: I've brought it on myself. That is the conditioning, the

761
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 5: indoctrination that lives in the fear in you. It roots

762
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 5: in as fear, and I have lived with fear which

763
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 5: turned into anxiety my whole life of misstepping in any

764
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 5: way at any point in time.

765
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 3: Of course.

766
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: I mean you've basically been taught your whole life that

767
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: everything you do is wrong and it's going to send

768
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: you to hell or not be with your family.

769
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and you're good.

770
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: Satan's going to control you. And then you know you

771
00:33:59,160 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: don't want to.

772
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 5: Be like all as other people, you know, living their

773
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 5: apparently miserable lives Cabbage Patch doll yeah and all they're fun,

774
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 5: disgusting fun.

775
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 4: Man.

776
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: I love the Wisdom Book.

777
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 5: But here's here's also like the conundrum too, is like

778
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 5: you know, there were things that we would be allowed

779
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 5: to do, like like my relatives they all worked at Disney.

780
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: Oh really, and so we would go to Disney were

781
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 3: they were they in the religion or they not? Not

782
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: at all.

783
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 5: They didn't know anything about what was going on in

784
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 5: our home. And this documentary actually enlightened them, and the

785
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 5: responses have been really incredible. I love my cousins and

786
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 5: my aunt uncle. They've been so beautiful.

787
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: I did not I did not expect it, and it's

788
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 2: been really mind blowing.

789
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 4: Honestly.

790
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: That is one of the hardest disconnects for people and

791
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: these things is when you have family out so like, yes,

792
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: your Grandma's and do a doll you can't have it.

793
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: And I'm not speaking for you here, I'm just speaking

794
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: for the support group I'm in where it would be

795
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: like I would every night because I knew my grandparents

796
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: were going to hell because they weren't this religion, and

797
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: I'd be trying to convince them and my cousins, you know,

798
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: I could never play the same things as them, and

799
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: I would try to be prophesizing to them.

800
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 3: And it just.

801
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: Tears families apart at the scenes these religions. It's really heartbreaking.

802
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 5: It's unfortunate because people are choosing religion over humanity. Yes,

803
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 5: and that's not what the Christian faith is about, right,

804
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 5: But they have been so misguided and they have accepted

805
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 5: that guidance and it is.

806
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 4: So entrenched into them.

807
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 5: It is so deeply rooted that they have a very

808
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,439
Speaker 5: long journey of opening up themselves and asking the right

809
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 5: questions and then listening to survivors, to victims of this system.

810
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 5: And if they're not willing to have that openness to

811
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 5: at least have enough sympathy or compassion to people, they're

812
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 5: never going to change, They're not going to learn, and

813
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 5: simply they don't want to.

814
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 3: So there was a lawsuit against Bill.

815
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: What I remember is that they sued, they lost, he countersued,

816
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 1: and then he lost. So it's a win for them

817
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: kind of, but also not really because he's still in

818
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: the world.

819
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 5: The story is really that, like it was, the story

820
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 5: amongst the fundamentalists and the people still in IBLP and

821
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 5: AHI is simply that their stories were not fully true.

822
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 5: That that yeah, that they were, you know, kind of

823
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 5: making this up, or the statue's limitations was already gone,

824
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 5: and so this really was just a desire to ruin

825
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 5: Bill and to take all of his money. But I

826
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 5: also with the survivors they have come forward with this story.

827
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 2: There was a Steve just Paced a quote here that

828
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: says as many as thirty four women who worked for

829
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: Gothre to have claimed that he harassed them. Gothar denied

830
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: the allegations and admitted no wrongdoing, but he announced his

831
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: resignation in twenty fourteen.

832
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he is a little canceled from the whole thing, right.

833
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,959
Speaker 5: Yes, well, because he's bringing down he's bringing a bad

834
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 5: name upon Christ and therefore the ministry, and so they

835
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 5: just can't have scandal. I mean, this happens with every religion,

836
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 5: right ooh, scandal, get them out, you know, or continue

837
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 5: to protect them, which they had done for decades. They

838
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 5: had protected his behaviors.

839
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: And his brothers exactly don't And others within the ministry,

840
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 2: like there were other the guy who was in charge

841
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: of my department the last few months I was there,

842
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: he ran away with his secretary.

843
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 4: He had ten children.

844
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 5: He ran away with his secretary, left his kids at headquarters,

845
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 5: and now he has like a brood of kids with

846
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 5: this other woman. And you know what, look in the

847
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 5: real world, do what you do, right, like figure it out,

848
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 5: and you're not meant for each other, and let's move

849
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 5: away and let me go and have a different relationship.

850
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 5: But within this system and this moral purity, this moral

851
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 5: compass everybody seems to piously have, it is it is

852
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 5: damnation if you still believe in just a little on this,

853
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 5: and I think they had just had so much trouble

854
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 5: with him at this point that they were just like,

855
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 5: you know what, this does not look good.

856
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: Bill.

857
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, like Bill, you just need to go.

858
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: I always find it really fascinating when someone starts a

859
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: cult and then it gets big, so big, bigger than

860
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: them that they get ousted from that too.

861
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: He started it and then he handed up in the

862
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: streets of India and like nineteen seventeen being like, I

863
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: am God dying by himself and we still have this religion.

864
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: Jesus, it's crazy, Jesus.

865
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: I want to quickly touch on just like the government

866
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: goals and the people who are connected to politics who

867
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: are also a part of or connected to the church.

868
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 3: Can you speak on that at all?

869
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 4: Sure.

870
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 5: First, one of the things I want to say is

871
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 5: that iblp and Ati is not a church. People could

872
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 5: confused that it's that it is a church because it's

873
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 5: within the Christian faith.

874
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 3: But it's like a corporation.

875
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's an organization. It's a five oh one ce nonprofit.

876
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 5: So he is a ministry quote unquote ministry. That's what

877
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 5: we all called it. We called it the Institute so

878
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 5: you know, oh, see institute, and we go to the institute.

879
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 5: Da da da da da. So here he has this

880
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 5: whole thing, and obviously we all have our moral compasses

881
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 5: and we know the best for the world, and it

882
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 5: just naturally goes into politics. It's so natural, like we

883
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 5: need to be governed by better authority. We don't have

884
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 5: the right authorities, all of our authorities right now. If

885
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 5: you're liberal, you are an ungodly authority. Need to go

886
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 5: to the time, we need to we need to get

887
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 5: to that exactly. Yes, the president, the governors, the senators,

888
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 5: the police officers, everyone within government. They are authorities over you.

889
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 5: So it's not again, it's not like, oh, we are

890
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 5: a belief system that is going to go take over

891
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 5: the government. That wasn't I believe that wasn't like the

892
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 5: goal when he started in the sixties, like let's take

893
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 5: over America. But would he love for America to fall

894
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 5: back into the fifties and have us all be you know,

895
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 5: kind of handmade detail because I know that's what we

896
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 5: all keep referring to. It is as but literally that

897
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 5: is what it naturally is. The progression of what happens.

898
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 5: Even Jim Bob Duggar was in the Senate in Arkansas

899
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 5: like it is. When I left Headquarters and I wasn't

900
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 5: allowed to come back, I thought, oh, maybe I'll get

901
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 5: into something because now I have office skills, right, I

902
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 5: can type and I can, you know, answer phones. And

903
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 5: so one of my friends actually was going to go

904
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 5: to DC and work with a company there or like

905
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 5: work with a like I forget what it was called,

906
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 5: but David Barton was a part of it. And so

907
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 5: they were like, oh, we might go and do this.

908
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 5: Do you want to come and live with another girl,

909
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 5: like live with her and then we can work in

910
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 5: his offices. And I was just like, hey, first of all,

911
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 5: I can work in an office and it means that

912
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 5: I don't have to be home, and also, hey, I

913
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 5: can keep traveling.

914
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: I can see Washington, DC. But my dad would not

915
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: allow it. I was like twenty one years old, and

916
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: he was like no, I'm like, you were okay with

917
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: me going to headquarters for three years, Like why wouldn't

918
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 2: you be okay with this? And for for whatever the

919
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 2: reason was, he was like, no, you need to stay

920
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: here and help your brothers and just and you're under

921
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: your dad's authority until you get married. Yes, until then

922
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: your husband is yours and then my husband is my authority.

923
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 4: Yeah. Do I ever have my own autonomy? Now?

924
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: Did you not?

925
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 2: Until you marry the most amazing husband who says, yeah,

926
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 2: you do have your autonomy?

927
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 3: Honey, Yeah, go live your best life.

928
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: This might go before when we started talking about the government.

929
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: But why did you leave headquarters? And why weren't you

930
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:33,919
Speaker 1: welcome back?

931
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: I did not leave on my own terms. Okay, but

932
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: I kissed a boy. Oh yeah, and I liked honey,

933
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: he's a good guesser. Yeah, the person who ended up

934
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: becoming my husband.

935
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 4: I instigated it. He has such a cuty.

936
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 5: But we were kind of we were forced to work

937
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 5: together for a little while, and we just our relationship grew.

938
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 5: I mean obviously it started with friendship. I was a

939
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 5: little stand offish actually, and he wasn't trying to push anything.

940
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 5: I think again, when you're all raising the system, it's

941
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 5: not like you know, oh I want this one. Some

942
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 5: men can be but you know exactly, yeah, I own

943
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 5: you kind of thing. But we just had a casual

944
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 5: relationship and it was really we had fun. We joked

945
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 5: with each other and stuff, and I don't know it

946
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 5: progressed into where I was like, we want to help

947
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 5: me file in the attic upstairs because I knew no

948
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 5: one was ever up there.

949
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 4: I was always alone.

950
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 2: And I was like, come on, come on upstairs, and

951
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 2: uh yeah, we had one.

952
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 4: Kiss and as like as like, we had this kiss,

953
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 4: and then I was just like, oh my gosh, what

954
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 4: have I done?

955
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: Because you're just like.

956
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 4: What have I done? Like the sheer horror of this,

957
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 4: but also that felt that was amazing.

958
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: I now know why I shouldn't be doing this because

959
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 2: I want to do this, okay, And but I looked

960
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 2: at him, I was like, we can't do this again?

961
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 4: Like that was amazing for.

962
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 3: Us all No, no, we did it.

963
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 5: We did it, but we were like because I also

964
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 5: was afraid that like, what this will be the moment

965
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 5: someone will walk in, right, So I was like, I know,

966
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 5: I'm feeling panicky and also a little guilty and I

967
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 5: don't want to destroy his life. And then probably but

968
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 5: like then to two other individuals had been sent home

969
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,919
Speaker 5: because of me. Two other boys have been sent home

970
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 5: because of my existence and just because of Bill.

971
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 3: But it's because of Bill.

972
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,479
Speaker 2: You hadn't even kissed or anything. It was literally yeah,

973
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: just very he was very protected. One guy I had

974
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: heard that he came forward and just I was only

975
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: there for like three months, and he was like, hey, Bill,

976
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in this this young lady, and I

977
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: think I'm gonna ask my parents for permission. He's like, no, no, no, no,

978
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 2: she's not ready yet, and he sent him home like

979
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: the next day. And then the other one was like

980
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: just kind of similar vibes of just it wasn't the

981
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: right timing and all this kind of stuff and they

982
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: need so it was always the boys getting sent home though,

983
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: And I'm like, that makes no sense because people are

984
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: actually effective here, right, and you're choosing me over the

985
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: effective Like I don't yeah, I don't make it.

986
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: It makes sense, confess to the kiss.

987
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 3: Well, it's such a weird story.

988
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 5: But we I was living in an apartment or in

989
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 5: a room where I had my own phone, and so

990
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 5: did he, and so we called each other after we

991
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 5: got back to our places, and I again reiterated like

992
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 5: that was wonderful, lovely, thank you so much, but like also,

993
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 5: we can't, we cannot do this, like I know that

994
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 5: it's like.

995
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 4: Kind of in us right now, like ooh, let's do it.

996
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 5: Again, but I'm like, we can't not hear and he's like, no,

997
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 5: I totally agree, like this is you know, I understand.

998
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: And we were like okay, and I'm thinking, like can

999
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: we even keep ourselves to this. I don't even know

1000
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: if we're possible or capable of keeping ourselves from doing

1001
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: this anyway, we hang up by not no, but we

1002
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: hang up and a young man knocks on his door

1003
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: and I don't to this day, we don't know how

1004
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: it happened. But he overheard our phone call conversation through

1005
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: his own like cordless cell phone.

1006
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: Oh well, Mike, I mean I'm not actually.

1007
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 5: I'm not kidding. Well, and it's like two in the morning,

1008
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 5: so you know what, I have a question for you.

1009
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 5: What were you doing up at that hour of night?

1010
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: By the way, But he looked at my husband or

1011
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 2: becomes it, but he looked at him and he was like,

1012
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 2: so you need to go and tell Bill Gothard what happened,

1013
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: or I'm going to tell him you of twenty.

1014
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 3: Four hours whoa.

1015
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: So he called me back up and he's like, I'm

1016
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I thought we were talked, and he

1017
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: was like, this just happened.

1018
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 5: And I was wide awake. I didn't sleep for the

1019
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 5: rest of the night. I was so panicked. I'm like,

1020
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 5: oh my gosh, over a kiss. Were these house phones?

1021
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 4: How did this?

1022
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1023
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 4: I was a house husband. I was at this point.

1024
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 5: I had been in several different homes, but at this

1025
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 5: point I was living.

1026
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 4: Across the street from Bill Gothard's office.

1027
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: I had been moved up there after my blood clot

1028
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: had happened, and so he had easier access to calling

1029
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: me over and spending time with him.

1030
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1031
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 5: I hated living there, but yeah, So I had my

1032
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 5: own phone and I had it installed actually just because

1033
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 5: I just wanted to have my own privacy, not even

1034
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 5: just not even to talk to him, but just I

1035
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 5: wanted my own I wanted to get on my computer

1036
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 5: because it was modems, you know, I mean.

1037
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: Were you beginning to deconstruct a little bit?

1038
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 5: No, I don't know that I could say I ever deconstructed,

1039
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 5: because I don't know that I was ever in the

1040
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 5: first place.

1041
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 4: Cool, do you know what I mean?

1042
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: Like, I just I really had a hard time believing

1043
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 2: that God would let this happen to people. Yeah, and

1044
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 2: he never he never heard me, He never helped me,

1045
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: he never he never and at every turn, I was

1046
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,959
Speaker 2: thrown into another situation that was worse than the first one,

1047
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: and I was having to choose between bad and horrible,

1048
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: and I just I could not wrap my head around

1049
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: the fact that this is like some all loving God

1050
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: and at every turn, all he wants to do is

1051
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: make you feel shitty about yourself, right, And I just

1052
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: it's not like at the time I went I don't

1053
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: believe in God.

1054
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 4: Everybody, it was like.

1055
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 5: I'm impostering that I do, because this is actually the

1056
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 5: cage I'm in, and I don't know how so I

1057
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 5: would even get out of it, and if I did,

1058
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 5: I'm actually scared of that too, right, you know, I

1059
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 5: don't know if you've ever seen The Village, I always

1060
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 5: equate this to the movie The Village totally. You just

1061
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 5: don't know what's on the outside, and you are led

1062
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 5: by fear of all of the scary monsters, and what

1063
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 5: you find out is the scary monsters or the adults

1064
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 5: in the room, they were the ones that kept you fearful.

1065
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 5: And you find out on the outside that there are

1066
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 5: people willing to help you, but you have to go

1067
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 5: through that horrible, wretched forest of terror of your own

1068
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 5: understanding of that journey and then you finally get on

1069
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 5: the other side of that wall and you find kindness.

1070
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 5: And I just think that I was just holding on

1071
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 5: with the instinct inside of myself. I don't know why

1072
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 5: it's there. I didn't, you know, it's not I didn't

1073
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 5: consciously think this at any time, But I think it

1074
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 5: was just that survival of at some point, maybe this

1075
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 5: could get better. And the only thing I asked for

1076
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 5: the most from the universe, from anything, and it's in

1077
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 5: my journals all over the place, is that I knew

1078
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 5: that the only way I would quote escape this was

1079
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 5: by getting married. And I simply asked that.

1080
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: God would give me someone that was kind all. I

1081
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 2: just wanted kindness, That's all I wanted. Ah, And I

1082
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: got it, got it.

1083
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1084
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 3: Bill tried to stop it too. When we were engaged.

1085
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 5: He wrote a letter to my fiance telling him I

1086
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 5: wasn't ready yet for marriage.

1087
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 3: So when you got it, like, did you leave? Where

1088
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 3: did you go?

1089
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 5: Well at headquarters after this kiss thing, my husband was

1090
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 5: or my guy was sent back home within like a

1091
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 5: day or two, of course, and I stayed for another

1092
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 5: like three months. And then Bill sat me down one

1093
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 5: day and he was like, so, so, lindsay, the board

1094
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 5: has decided that it's not okay for you to be here.

1095
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 5: And I mean basically he uninvited me from headquarters. But

1096
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 5: he was like, so, and I've talked to your parents

1097
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 5: and we've decided that we're going to send you to

1098
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 5: the Oklahoma City Training Center.

1099
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 4: And I was like no. We like no, no, no,

1100
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 4: no no. And I was like, oh, I'm really happy

1101
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 4: to go home. He's like, well, I've already.

1102
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 2: Talked to your parents and so you're going to leave

1103
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 2: next week or something like that.

1104
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 5: There's a group of kids that are going down there,

1105
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 5: and so you're just going to go with them.

1106
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 4: And I oh.

1107
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 3: Is so upside down inside out?

1108
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 5: And so I went from having quote freedom, you know,

1109
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 5: of schedule and what I wanted to eat and what

1110
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 5: I was doing to being in a training center, which

1111
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 5: is basically a prism, you know with.

1112
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: The blacked out windows or is that a different one.

1113
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 4: No, that wasn't there. Now it was a hotel.

1114
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 3: It was a hotel.

1115
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 4: I think Indianapolis had some of the blackout windows.

1116
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 2: Okay, so you see, yeah, I could I could see,

1117
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: I could see the world.

1118
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 4: I couldn't be a part of.

1119
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I was there for for five months and

1120
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 5: I was pretty miserable. My ibs actually really went into

1121
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 5: hyper overdrive there because of my personality. I guess I

1122
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 5: was asked to be a part of Character First pretty

1123
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,240
Speaker 5: quickly in and so I went from cleaning hotel rooms

1124
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 5: that no one ever slept in to going to the

1125
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 5: public schools and teaching the character stuff. And it's so

1126
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 5: bizarre to me how things just work, because even during

1127
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 5: that period of time, the Wall Street Journal came down

1128
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 5: and wrote an article about Character First and they interviewed me,

1129
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,479
Speaker 5: and I'm literally on the Wall Street Journal. It says

1130
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 5: like a Lindsay Williams and Wesley so and so we're

1131
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 5: standing in front of this classroom.

1132
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 4: Da da da dadah.

1133
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 5: Like it didn't matter where I went. Somehow, something was

1134
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 5: like magnetically, like.

1135
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 3: Here's like why why is it?

1136
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 4: Why me? Why does it? Why does it have to

1137
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 4: be me? I don't want this.

1138
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 2: My grandfather like made clippings like my daughter's in the

1139
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal and I'm.

1140
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: Just like your dad.

1141
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 5: My grandfather okay, so in my end or no, But

1142
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 5: she was a journalist, a photographer, and so for him

1143
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 5: it was like my granddaughter. You know, her name's in

1144
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 5: the Wall Street Journal, and like, if only he knew.

1145
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: I mean, how scary that you're teaching these principles to

1146
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: now public school children his parents have.

1147
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 4: With the Christ part omitted.

1148
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,720
Speaker 5: There was no religion in it, but it's so steeped

1149
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 5: in moral purity and these values are there.

1150
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 4: And so you are indoctrinating these children.

1151
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: They got it in the middle terry is terrifying.

1152
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, but what were the principles in Yeah? Like character qualities.

1153
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, well there's forty nine character qualities.

1154
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 3: Oh my god, yeah, name them all.

1155
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 4: I don't know. Would you like me to be in

1156
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 4: the fetal position in about.

1157
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 3: Two seconds because we can do that.

1158
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 5: The character qualities were Bill's beliefs of words, so love, discernment, attentiveness,

1159
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 5: like the character that we would have as we grow

1160
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 5: in the world, right in our life, and the things

1161
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 5: that we just naturally start to pick up the form

1162
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 5: our character. Kind of a Tony Robins, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1163
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 5: Like he could have just stopped there and maybe been okay,

1164
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 5: become just just be there, yeah and be all there,

1165
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 5: you know, like don't expand then ego came in and

1166
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 5: he went, hey, you know Haywire, but these qualities. What

1167
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 5: what was effective about them is he was able to

1168
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 5: connect them with animals. So like a deer is attentive,

1169
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 5: they have years they pay attention.

1170
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 3: Like it was very easy. It was like memory cards.

1171
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 5: It was so easy to lock in this information, like

1172
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 5: I'll never forget that attentiveness is the deer.

1173
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, you know, American Eye, almost like

1174
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: they did. I don't think that for sure, but my

1175
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: medicine cards say the deer.

1176
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 4: Love that I love.

1177
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, here I go.

1178
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 3: But they but he pulls all this together.

1179
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 5: I'm probably gonna get this wrong. So you know, atype

1180
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 5: people don't come for me. But like diligence might be

1181
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 5: the beaver, you know, because he's in there making his

1182
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 5: house and his little you know, damns on the water

1183
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 5: and all of these stories start to really just permeate

1184
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 5: through you, and they resonate with children. It's fun, you're learning,

1185
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 5: and then there's a song. They have a song that

1186
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 5: goes with it. In Ati, we didn't have that. We

1187
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 5: had a game called Character Clues. And I'm hoping that someday,

1188
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 5: some of us that are on the documentary that we

1189
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 5: can get around a table and film us playing character clues.

1190
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 3: Board game.

1191
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 5: No, not the board game. There's a card game. Okay,

1192
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 5: the board game. Honestly, no one freaking played that.

1193
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 3: What was it called?

1194
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 4: Bad thing?

1195
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 3: Was terrifying? Commands of Christ.

1196
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 4: You want to talk about fear of hell to hell?

1197
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and here's your and here's the pit of despair.

1198
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 3: I'm like, live name.

1199
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 4: I'm like, how about the Game of Life?

1200
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 5: Oh wait, we can't play that becausey aren't enough cars

1201
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 5: for our big family. It's like, it's just it's so ridiculous.

1202
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 5: But the character qualities were just I think his probably

1203
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 5: most far reaching information outside of the Umbrella of Protection

1204
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 5: and his strongholds diagrams, because it could be so flexibly

1205
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 5: used through he had. Character cities was another dream of

1206
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 5: his to create cities that would focus on character, and

1207
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,280
Speaker 5: Oklahoma was kind of his like.

1208
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 3: Like physical real cities.

1209
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 4: Yes, like like this like this month, the or this year.

1210
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 5: The character quality would be attentiveness and so the city

1211
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 5: is going to focus on being attentive to people's needs

1212
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 5: and being attentive to each other and whatever. Like this

1213
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 5: was a grand goal and dream of his. So let's

1214
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 5: start with the schools.

1215
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 2: Let's get into the He had mayor's conferences and would

1216
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 2: teach character at the mayor's conferences. And let's get into

1217
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: the police system, and let's teach the police and if

1218
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: we can get them.

1219
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 4: All in this big hive mind, I mean, brilliant.

1220
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: Why are bad people so good at spreading affirmation? He

1221
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: has thirty seven books, Way, what were you gonna say?

1222
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 5: And they're all just iterations of the seminar and ati

1223
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 5: how well? But you know what too, though he though

1224
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 5: a lot of those books started coming out once the

1225
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:34,919
Speaker 5: ministry started to fail.

1226
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 3: Interesting, Well, you need money, right.

1227
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 4: What are you gonna do if you don't have finances?

1228
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 3: Honey?

1229
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 5: And if no one's coming and no one's listening, you

1230
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 5: better start shouting and put more out there.

1231
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 3: I just I just want to like so the character first? Why?

1232
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 4: Like what?

1233
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 3: I love watching your brain process character first?

1234
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 4: But why might like what you know?

1235
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 2: If there's nothing overtly bringing people into like what is

1236
00:54:59,480 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 2: the goal?

1237
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 1: Think?

1238
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 3: For him is.

1239
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: To change the minds of the world, to make them,

1240
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 2: to make them more morally and bring them into his

1241
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 2: fold eventually, I think to a degree, But just to

1242
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 2: shift people's minds.

1243
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 5: He wanted to shift the temperature. He wanted to shift

1244
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 5: people's understandings, shift everybody's behavior.

1245
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 4: Yes, but he also like the like.

1246
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 5: From the very beginning, he started with prison ministries and

1247
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 5: he prays on the week and gives them the savior

1248
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 5: complex of here, I have all the answers for you,

1249
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 5: and then you do it to schools like these were

1250
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 5: these were some of them were, you know, like inner

1251
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,439
Speaker 5: city schools and things like that. And so you're also

1252
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 5: continuing to pray on people that are looking for help,

1253
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 5: and you're telling it to the children, they'll tell it

1254
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 5: to the parents. It's the same with Sunday schools and

1255
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 5: u VBSS and stuff. Get the children, you'll get the parents.

1256
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 5: Make it fun for the kids. The kids will beg

1257
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 5: the parents to come, and then the parents will come

1258
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 5: to church. How can we get more into the fold?

1259
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 5: How can we get more people to come in and

1260
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 5: be a part of this so that we can change

1261
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 5: the dynamic in America?

1262
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: So it comes nineteen kids in counting.

1263
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 2: So it's almost like scientology stress tests maybe, like we'll

1264
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 2: bring people in with this thing that's just sort of

1265
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 2: neutral and isn't like actually pulling anyone into the religion

1266
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 2: because everyone wants to know if they're stressed, and then

1267
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 2: like maybe some people will stay a bit longer and

1268
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: that's how we'll get.

1269
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 5: Our Well, they always said, like, you know, we couldn't,

1270
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 5: we couldn't tell any of the children about Christ, but if.

1271
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 4: They asked, we could.

1272
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 5: And I just think that it's it's just finding the

1273
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,479
Speaker 5: ways around the system of it. And you know, yes,

1274
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 5: coming to Christ is important to him. But I think

1275
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 5: he also felt like, again, if I can just shift

1276
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 5: people's minds to have a more pure godly thought or behavior,

1277
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 5: that then we won't have all these systemic problems with teens,

1278
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 5: and we won't have broken families and you know, all

1279
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 5: these values that are so important to fundamentalists.

1280
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 3: Do you think he really believed that?

1281
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, you think he really believes in Christ?

1282
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 3: Oh?

1283
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he does.

1284
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,399
Speaker 1: Get how does he morally get around I'm touching.

1285
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 2: Girls because he has created his own narrative and he

1286
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 2: lives in patriarchy, so he's allowed to do said things

1287
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 2: he's got.

1288
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 4: But I'm also no, yeah, he.

1289
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: Never married parents and he's teaching everyone to parents.

1290
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 5: Never married, never kids, nothing. But it's again, I can't

1291
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 5: even like this is fully speculation because how am I

1292
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 5: to know?

1293
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 3: Like, the man's not transparent.

1294
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, he is a mouthpiece of his own making, and

1295
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 5: he is giving all of this stuff out and he

1296
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 5: has been emboldened and empowered and supported for far too long.

1297
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 2: Does it scare you the idea of politicians being in

1298
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 2: government too?

1299
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 3: Are members of IBLP.

1300
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 5: Absolutely absolutely, because they do not have a guard rail

1301
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 5: at all of conscience. Their conscience is ruled by Bill

1302
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 5: Gotthard's standards.

1303
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: Was Madison Cathard and the religion or I don't.

1304
00:57:58,680 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 3: Think he was.

1305
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 5: I think he he's adjacent, like he has friends that

1306
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 5: were yeah. Yeah, And honestly, fundamentalism is the bad fellow,

1307
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 5: Like it is fundamentalism, but also.

1308
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 3: A lot of fundamentalist to like, well, I BUILP.

1309
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: He's not us, Yeah, but you have the same you

1310
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 2: have the same foundation of belief.

1311
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 3: Are Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger are like the new

1312
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 3: leaders of the.

1313
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 4: No, they are not.

1314
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 2: From what I understand, I'm not fully clear on it,

1315
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 2: but I believe he was gunning for trying to become

1316
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 2: the next president of the organization. But I don't think that.

1317
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: Obviously that didn't go anywhere. Tim leven Dusky is the

1318
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: president of the organization now, and he was actually the

1319
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 2: one in charge of Oklahoma City Training Center when I

1320
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: was sent there. On him, I don't have respect for it.

1321
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 2: And I think that when you continue to bury and

1322
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 2: turn a deaf fear to the things that people are

1323
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: trying to say about your ministry and you don't want

1324
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: to listen to it and you don't want to acknowledge

1325
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 2: what's going on, I think that you have some pretty

1326
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 2: deep problems with yourself. I am aware that a lot

1327
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 2: of people that are still within ATI don't know what's

1328
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 2: going on. They just know Bill's gone and they've rebranded.

1329
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 2: I think this is very also super important for people

1330
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 2: to know that IBLP, the Institute in Basic Life Principles,

1331
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: is rebranding to the Home Discipleship Network. Oh, they are

1332
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: moving it into a different title, just like Facebook rebranded

1333
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 2: to Meta, because you know what, now everybody thinks Meta.

1334
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: I don't know how we forget that Facebook still Facebook

1335
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: and Instagram and stuff. But this this program is now

1336
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 2: the Home Discipleship Network. They have disbanded ATI, yes, but

1337
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 2: they still provide the Wisdom Booklets as a home and

1338
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 2: home Bible study program.

1339
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: So now the Wisdom Booklets are like a suggestion. But

1340
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: how does it feel to know, Hey, I was raised

1341
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: being like ruled by the wisdom booklets and now they're

1342
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: just a mere suggestion.

1343
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 4: My quote.

1344
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 5: Academic education is now your cute Tuesday night Bible study matter.

1345
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 3: What is the that's quaint? Yeah, that's quint for you.

1346
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 5: May you, May you peacefully be the most educated person

1347
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 5: that you've ever known yourself to be, because Wow, you're

1348
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 5: about to learn so much.

1349
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 3: It's so unfair hashtag sarcasm.

1350
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 4: It's gross.

1351
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 3: What do you think? I mean, have you learned anything

1352
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 3: from this experience?

1353
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 4: What is there any like in a classroom?

1354
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 3: Honey, wasn't.

1355
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 2: So I'm learning that through this experience. I mean the

1356
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 2: answer can be no, no, Well, I I have learned

1357
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:43,919
Speaker 2: through this experience. I think what I what I learned

1358
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 2: first and foremost is that I wasn't alone and that

1359
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 2: was probably one of the most beautiful things for me

1360
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 2: that I am allowed to have a chosen family.

1361
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 4: And I never thought that that was a thing.

1362
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 2: Like you had to stick with blood, you had to

1363
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: stick with the people that abused and raised you. And

1364
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 2: I've I've definitely suffered from a lot of different like

1365
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 2: traumatic syndromes because of the way that I was raised.

1366
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 2: But I'll never have the platform. I never thought I

1367
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 2: would have the platform to be able to inform because

1368
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 2: I'm not being heard by them, right. But also that

1369
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 2: doesn't matter to me anymore because I have gained my

1370
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: autonomy and I have gained my own voice, and I'm

1371
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 2: supported not by my authority, but by my partner in life,

1372
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 2: who celebrates who I've chosen to become and has been

1373
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 2: with me through all of this journey. And it's We

1374
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 2: watched the documentary together and one of his takeaways was

1375
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 2: he's like, you hear one of us survivors say something

1376
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 2: and you're like, WHOA, that's kind of excessive, right, that's

1377
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 2: a little overblown. And then immediately they back it up

1378
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: with Bill saying it even worse. It gives That gives

1379
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 2: me goosebumps. Just when you thought we were sort of

1380
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 2: maybe making it up, Bill says it even worse.

1381
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 4: Right, I know some of the footage. You can't deny it.

1382
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 5: And sure, like, we'll play the argument where they're good people. Yes, duh,

1383
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 5: of course there were good people, but there were good

1384
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 5: people that turned into bad people, and there were bad

1385
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 5: people that by God, they need to turn into good

1386
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 5: people or have justice, and the good you'll.

1387
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: Just serve as the most perfect shield for the bad stuff.

1388
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 3: To keep it.

1389
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 5: Absolutely they do, and and I keep saying it. I'm like,

1390
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 5: they're thrashing in the grass right now. You know, they're upset,

1391
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 5: they're pissed.

1392
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 4: I get it.

1393
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 5: You know what, I've had three years to deal with

1394
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 5: this documentary. You just saw it three days ago, So

1395
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 5: take a really deep breath.

1396
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 4: And don't watching it.

1397
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, oh yes, I'm sure that people are

1398
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 5: watching it.

1399
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 4: I'm sure.

1400
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 5: And my other thing is they're all also getting into

1401
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 5: echo chambers, so there's a lot of people they're like,

1402
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 5: I'm not going to watch this.

1403
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 3: I'm not.

1404
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 5: I don't want anything to do with this because I

1405
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 5: heard of this, this and this, and this is what

1406
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 5: I think about the law suit and this is what

1407
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 5: I know about the douggers. And I'm like, but have

1408
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 5: you watched it yourself. You don't get to have a

1409
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 5: full opinion if you haven't fully informed yourself. So take

1410
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 5: a beat, give yourself some time, and go in asking

1411
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 5: questions with a curious mind, because that's the first thing

1412
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 5: that gets shut off in you is to no longer

1413
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 5: be curious, and to no longer ask questions. Ask why

1414
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 5: one of the things I said that didn't make it

1415
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 5: into the documentary when they ask like, what would you

1416
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 5: say to survivor? Or what would you say to other

1417
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 5: people that are still in this and to young students

1418
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 5: and whatnot? And I just said, if you feel something

1419
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 5: inside of yourself, allow the feeling to rise, do not

1420
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 5: not ask the questions. Allow the question to show up.

1421
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 5: And like I did, you might not have an answer,

1422
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 5: but keep walking forward because some day those steps you

1423
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 5: will look back and you will see that you've taken

1424
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 5: millions of steps, and that you're so.

1425
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 3: Much farther away than you ever thought you could possibly get.

1426
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 2: Everyone adds up and your perspective is so much sharper

1427
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 2: and so much clearer, and your anger gets stronger to

1428
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 2: because anger is not something I've ever had, and I

1429
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 2: am not to get.

1430
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 5: All by believe it. I am righteously indignant right now.

1431
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 5: Let's what my hope to the universe is that I'm

1432
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 5: speaking this to the universe. Please let this happen when

1433
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 5: IBLP gets sold off, because we know that eventually it

1434
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 5: will at headquarters. Whoever purchases it and demolishes it because

1435
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 5: that building needs to go. I want to be allowed

1436
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 5: to go in with a sledgehammer. I want to be

1437
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 5: the first person with a sledgehammer along with my survivors.

1438
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 5: Anyone that wants to come, you're welcome. And if they

1439
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 5: decide to implode the building, I want to push the detonator.

1440
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm.

1441
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: Just so excited you said that. I got a call

1442
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: from my boyfriend who watched the doc with me last night,

1443
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: the whole thing. We made it through the whole thing

1444
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: because we couldn't stop, and I was gonna watch it

1445
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: this morning, but I had to do it all right away.

1446
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 4: It's so good.

1447
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 1: But he was like, you have to ask her what

1448
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: should say to other people in the situation, and I've forgotten.

1449
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: So I'm so glad that you said that, because yeah,

1450
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: it's so scary.

1451
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is so scary. And be kind to yourself. Yeah,

1452
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 5: don't like the guilt. I had guilt for a long

1453
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 5: time that I didn't do anything.

1454
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 1: And are your parents still in it, because like my

1455
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 1: parents are still It's like, if your parents are still

1456
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 1: in it, it's scary.

1457
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 3: It's like that in it is weird.

1458
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 5: Would I say that they're in it as in their

1459
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 5: functioning with the programs, like do they go to the

1460
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 5: basic vat seminar?

1461
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 4: Do they watch them online?

1462
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 2: No? Do they don't homeschool children because we're all in

1463
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 2: our forties, so no. But the mindset and the indoctrination

1464
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 2: is there. Their belief system is fundamentally this, and until

1465
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 2: they're able to break through those chains, they're still in.

1466
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 4: Their own little cages.

1467
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 5: And they're that well, sure, I mean, I'm not cruel,

1468
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 5: do you know what I mean? Like one of my

1469
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 5: achilles heels in my life has been hope. I mean,

1470
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 5: I'm kids, you or not, but isn't that horrible?

1471
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:29,439
Speaker 3: But hope is what.

1472
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 5: Held me to, enduring them to as an adult being

1473
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 5: told that the only reason I'm successful as a makeup

1474
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 5: and hair artist is because I have character.

1475
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 2: My character is what my clients see and that's why

1476
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 2: I'm so successful.

1477
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 5: And I'm like, you are diminishing the work that I

1478
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 5: put myself through getting a high school equivalency test at

1479
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 5: twenty seven years old, that I went through cosmetology school

1480
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 5: and I was one point away from failing the written test,

1481
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 5: but I aced the hands on because now I am

1482
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 5: a freaking visual learner. Give me an academic test and

1483
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 5: I freeze and my brain has no capacity because all

1484
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 5: of my insufficiencies to terrify me and come back in panic.

1485
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 5: That is why I know, That's why I do what

1486
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 5: I do. And as my dear friend Daniel told me,

1487
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 5: he was like, your makeup and hair career was the

1488
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 5: ship that sailed you away from all of this past.

1489
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 3: And it is the truth that's so amazing. I mean,

1490
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 3: oh no, were you guys allowed to wear makeup?

1491
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 4: Yes, but minimal, very minimal.

1492
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 3: It couldn't have.

1493
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: Had to be long.

1494
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 3: And oh yeah, yeah, just funny. You weren't though, right

1495
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 3: in yours.

1496
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 4: Oh you lucky girl.

1497
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 1: I looked fantastic when I taught myself how to do it, but.

1498
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:41,959
Speaker 3: You look like the American girl with cool hair.

1499
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 2: So you have a thriving career and you have your

1500
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 2: own podcast we do.

1501
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 4: It has nothing to.

1502
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 3: Do with cults, which is great.

1503
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 5: It's called the We Speak Beauty Podcast, and it's really

1504
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 5: just about the industry as a makeup artist. And in

1505
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 5: a way, I sometimes do feel like I'm advocating, just

1506
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 5: like you know, we are right now with all of

1507
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 5: this religion and fundamentalism, like We advocate for artists and

1508
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 5: we want artists that are in the industry to understand.

1509
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 5: So we don't just like sit and talk about mascaras.

1510
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 5: And there's so many people that do that. Like we

1511
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 5: get into the nitty gritty of working with agencies and

1512
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 5: working with difficult clients.

1513
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 3: And here's the horror stories. And I mean it's so.

1514
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,680
Speaker 5: Funny and tragic sometimes at the same time. But we

1515
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 5: interview people as well, and it's really fun. We have

1516
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 5: almost one hundred episodes.

1517
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 4: That's awesome.

1518
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so fun. There is life after Cults, y'all. Heck, yeah,

1519
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 3: there is.

1520
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 4: And I think it's episode one or two.

1521
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,759
Speaker 5: I for the very first time, because of the support

1522
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:39,639
Speaker 5: of my co host Lottie, she was like, I think

1523
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 5: you need to say that you were raised in a cult.

1524
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 4: Wow.

1525
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:46,480
Speaker 2: And I was like, what, no, this is my secret.

1526
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 2: And she was like, I think it would be really

1527
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 2: healthy for you. And I was like, you know what,

1528
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna trust you because speaking is what creates action.

1529
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 2: And I was just like, Okay, here we go. And

1530
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 2: I did I think I just said it very meekly

1531
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 2: but quiet leave it. I was like, yeah, so I

1532
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 2: was raising a cult and but now do you make

1533
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 2: of it hair and on to the next thing. But

1534
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 2: that was my first utterance, really, I.

1535
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 1: Think at the end of the dock, I mean, the

1536
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 1: message is like, we're we're raised to be so scared

1537
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 1: of the authority, but our voices are what actually matter.

1538
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:21,560
Speaker 1: And if enough of us say it's all.

1539
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 3: It becomes a crowd. It becomes a very loud noise that.

1540
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 2: No and cawd lie turns upside down yes, and fills

1541
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,759
Speaker 2: with water and drowns love. And then we sail away

1542
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 2: in the in the umbrella upside down right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1543
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 2: Actually I really just burn the umbrella.

1544
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 3: Umbrellas even when it rains.

1545
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 4: Even when it rains, I'm like, I'm just gonna wear

1546
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:42,120
Speaker 4: a hat.

1547
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 3: Screw the umbrellas.

1548
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 2: I'll wear a pot hat.

1549
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 4: Yes, no umbrellas.

1550
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,479
Speaker 2: So for people who want to learn more about this

1551
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 2: whole the en the Dugger connection, as well to the

1552
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 2: institute and basic life principles, Shiny Happy People is available

1553
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 2: for streaming now on Amazon Prime and where can people

1554
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 2: find you?

1555
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:02,599
Speaker 3: Are you on social media?

1556
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:03,679
Speaker 4: I am on social media?

1557
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 5: I am Cult Chronicles on TikTok and on Instagram. I'm

1558
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 5: the Cult Chronicles. You know, sometimes user names are taken.

1559
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:14,439
Speaker 5: I do have a Twitter, don't bother.

1560
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 2: I was told that maybe we should get them for

1561
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 2: the documentary, but.

1562
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 3: I don't like Twitter, so I don't Twitter.

1563
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 5: I'm TikTok mainly, and I love that. I also have

1564
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 5: a link tree in my bios that have a lot

1565
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:28,760
Speaker 5: more so other like this podcast. I'm going to link

1566
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 5: it there and then support people that want to, like

1567
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 5: give to support financially. I have several different links on

1568
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 5: there too, for like organizations that support homeschooling, you know,

1569
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,760
Speaker 5: advocates for homeschooling and the Vashi Institute and things like

1570
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 5: that that like really are supportive of people trying to

1571
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 5: escape these things, as well as just a little bit

1572
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 5: of information the links to the wisdom booklets if anyone

1573
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 5: wants to, you know, be like, holy crap, yeah, but yeah,

1574
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 5: that's that's pretty much where I am. And my makeup

1575
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 5: is crazy pretty on Instagram. Oh I can't wait to look.

1576
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining us.

1577
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,879
Speaker 4: Thank you, this was incredible you too.

1578
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 3: And that's the end. That's the end, and what an end.

1579
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:15,759
Speaker 3: My god, Megan, we already know you wouldn't join the IBLP, Nope.

1580
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 3: If you were in Lindsay's position.

1581
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 2: Do you think that you would uh sue Bill? Do

1582
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 2: you think you'd participate in that?

1583
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 3: Oh?

1584
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 1: God, that's a hard one because when I was watching

1585
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 1: Shiny Happy People and they announced the last suit, I

1586
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 1: was like, fuck, yeah, let's go. I'm in, And then

1587
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 1: I saw hem reverse sue them yeah, and was like, oh,

1588
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:40,679
Speaker 1: so I don't know. I really don't know. That would

1589
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: be I guess a super individual choice. And I totally

1590
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 1: respect Lindsay's decision not to, and I totally respect the

1591
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 1: women who went after it.

1592
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 3: So totally. That's a Yeah, that's a tough one.

1593
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure, but god, I wish we could

1594
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 1: sue all of these cult leaders and Oblivion.

1595
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 2: I do too, and we've talked about it a million times.

1596
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 2: But it is such a classic tactic to you know,

1597
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 2: when you're in a position of wealth and power as

1598
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 2: a cult leader or you know similar, you really can

1599
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,600
Speaker 2: silence people. You really can use the legal system to

1600
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 2: silence people when you have that many resources, even.

1601
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 3: If you know you're not going to win.

1602
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 2: It's such a horrible tactic to know that you can

1603
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 2: still milk the sewers dry by just exhausting their financial resources.

1604
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 2: It's a it's a real shame disgusting. We've seen it

1605
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 2: in so many cults, you guys, so many cults.

1606
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 3: But anyway, that's all. Then I guess I'm with you.

1607
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 2: It's totally individual, totally depend I'm someone who's never named

1608
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 2: publicly my you know, the guy who I believed in

1609
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:46,559
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, and that my mom believed in.

1610
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 3: But it'll happen. Don't worry, it'll happen. Good.

1611
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,640
Speaker 1: I can't write well. Thank you so much, Lindsey for

1612
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 1: coming on, for everybody listening, leave us five stars, buy

1613
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 1: some merch, have some fun, come see us again here

1614
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 1: next week, and as all is, remember to follow your gut,

1615
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:06,480
Speaker 1: watch out for red flags.

1616
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me.

1617
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 2: Bye bye, trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby

1618
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 2: Rapp and Steve Delamater.

1619
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:20,360
Speaker 1: The special thanks to Stacy Para and.

1620
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:22,639
Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1621
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,720
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1622
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,280
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult pod, or on TikTok at

1623
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1624
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,560
Speaker 3: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1625
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1626
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 1: hits on Twitter.

1627
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word