1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're busy 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: tidying up the place before all our friends come over. 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: The place being, of course, the best city in the world, Chicago, 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: and all our friends being of course the best basketball players, coaches, journalists, 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: and fans in the world. It's Wednesday, July twenty second, 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: and while the rest of the week will be WNBA 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: All Star heavy, on today's show, we've got a special treat. 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: We're skipping the need to Know and bringing you the 9 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: first installment of a brand new Good Game series called 10 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: Built by Women, the story of soccer in the US. 11 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: As the Men's World Cup was playing out over the 12 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: last month and a half, you know, we were thinking 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: about the women because, unlike pretty much any other country 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: in the world, the United States fell in love with 15 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,639 Speaker 1: footy primarily through women, through the success of the US 16 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: women's national team, the ninety six Olympic gold medalists, of course, 17 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: the ninety nine ers, and all of our truly global 18 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: superstar women players. So with two pivotal moments on the horizon, 19 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: next Summer's Women's World Cup in Brazil and the twenty 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,319 Speaker 1: twenty eight LA Olympics in two years, we thought we'd 21 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: trace the roots of the beautiful game here in the US, 22 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: the beautiful women's game, obviously, because. 23 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: It's prettier to win a lot. 24 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 3: Right. 25 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: For today's first installment, I'm joined by Heidi Smith, author 26 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: of the book play On. We discussed the history of 27 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: women's soccer, both here and across the pond, the way 28 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: many countries tried to keep women from playing, and how 29 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: the growth and success of women's soccer in the US 30 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: has created global change. That conversation's coming up right after this, 31 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: Joining us now. She's the author of play On, From 32 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: Adversity to Advantage Through one hundred and forty Years of 33 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: Women's Soccer. She spent twenty seven years as a soccer 34 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: player and coach. Is a former high school and community 35 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: college teacher, also a magazine editor, trail crew leader, ropes 36 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: course facilitator, counselor, banquet server, and humor columnist. She's got 37 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: a BA in English from California State University, Chico and 38 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: a master's in teaching from the Evergreen State College. We 39 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: share an early inspiration in Huge We're callingist Dave Barry, 40 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: who inspired her career and my award winning sixth grade 41 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: speech on pork barrel spending. 42 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: It's Heidi Smith. 43 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 4: Hi, Heidi, Hi Sarah. Thanks so much for having me. 44 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about Dave Berry for a long time 45 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: until I read a bio of yours somewhere and it 46 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: all came flooding back. Thanks so much for coming on 47 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: the show and kicking off our series Built by Women, 48 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: the story of soccer in the US. You have written 49 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: a fantastic book that really helps tell this story in 50 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: a number of ways, and it was inspired by what 51 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: else but a Nike commercial. So please share with everyone 52 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: how an ad for Nike gave you that nudge to 53 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: create this great book. 54 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a little embarrassing being one of those people 55 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 4: that cries at commercials, but that. 56 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: Definitely is what happened all the time, all the time. 57 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 4: It was twenty fifteen, the twenty fifteen Women's World Cup, 58 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 4: and we were having a watch party at my boyfriend's place. 59 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 4: I'm in the kitchen and for the first time that 60 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 4: Nike American Women ad comes on, and it was just 61 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 4: something that I had never seen before because all the 62 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 4: ads for women's soccer where they included team members in 63 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 4: previous World Cups, they'd really been focused on, Oh, we 64 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 4: all get along so well, and isn't this nice? And 65 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 4: kind of this girl next door message? And this was 66 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 4: not that they were aggressive and physical and powerful, and 67 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 4: it just hit something in me that was like, thank God, 68 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 4: we're finally seeing this. But it was a really powerful, 69 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 4: visceral experience, and it made me realize that if I'm 70 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 4: feeling this way, probably a lot of women with my 71 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 4: experience of all ages, would also connect to this in 72 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 4: the same way. And so, what is there that's here, 73 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 4: what hasn't been explored? And that kind of launched me 74 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 4: on this whole journey. 75 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: Well, and it's sad but true that the way you 76 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: tell the story in the book is completely imperfectly accurate. 77 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: You use the theme of fowls. 78 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: So tell us about that organizing principle and how you 79 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: came upon the idea of kind of collecting and sharing 80 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: stories that way, and why unfortunately, in women's soccer and 81 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: the history of women's soccer, it worked so well to 82 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: compare a lot of the storylines to penalties in the game. 83 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 4: So I began with just this concept and it really 84 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 4: was that moment in the kitchen that spurred it, and 85 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 4: the idea was women's soccer is changing the world, that 86 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 4: this is the most popular sport in the world, and 87 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 4: when it changes, the culture around it changes, and so 88 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,239 Speaker 4: there is this power in this force in the game. 89 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 4: And that was all I really had as an idea. 90 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 4: So I went out and I started interviewing all these 91 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 4: people and doing all of this research, and I ended 92 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 4: up with just this mountain of information. And this was 93 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 4: a good six years in and then it was just 94 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 4: it was really daunting to just think about how in 95 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 4: the world am I going to organize this? And then 96 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 4: I just came upon this structure. I don't even remember 97 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 4: how that came about, but just looking at the history itself, 98 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 4: there were so many exams, samples of what we would 99 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 4: consider fouls and dangerous play and obstruction and all these things, 100 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 4: and I thought, will this really does this framework stand? 101 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 4: If I look at all of this history through this lens, 102 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 4: will will it actually work? And it did? And unfortunately, yes, 103 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 4: there were some chapters where I had no trouble finding 104 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 4: just mountains of evidence and stories like out of bounds 105 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 4: where we're coaches and things like that. But yeah, that 106 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 4: became the organizing principle. 107 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: Well, each chapter is named after one of those and 108 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: then you tell these incredible stories. And since this is 109 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: episode one, I'd like to set the stage for women 110 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: soccer in America by telling the tale of where and 111 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: how women around the globe really started to play organize 112 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: soccer and what got in the way of progress, from 113 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: bands to sexist coverage, how the sport eventually got to 114 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,679 Speaker 1: America and was elevated and sort of accelerated in the US, 115 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: and your stories throughout this book tells so many of 116 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: those things. So I want to start in England, where 117 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: the modern form of soccer was a stablished in London 118 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: by the Football Association the FA in eighteen sixty three, 119 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: of course just for men at the time, but during 120 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: World War One, the Dick cur Factor in Preston, England 121 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: organized this pioneering women's team that we've talked about on 122 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: the show before, the Dick Kerrz Ladies, founded in nineteen seventeen. 123 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: We've told a bit of this and especially about how 124 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: the resulting band came about, but you've got some great 125 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: details about their success and why it made folks, particularly men, 126 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: so angry and resulted in that nineteen twenty one band. 127 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: So share a bit of what you learned and your 128 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: favorite parts about learning about the Dick Kurrz ladies. 129 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. So they were munitions factory workers, which a lot 130 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 4: of these early women's teams were. But the difference with 131 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 4: them is that they just became like the absolute rock 132 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 4: stars of their day. They would just blow through opponents, 133 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 4: not violently, but they would just have these blowout games. 134 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 4: I think they at Their final record was seven hundred 135 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 4: and fifty nine wins out of eight hundred and thirty 136 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 4: three games. 137 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: Wow. 138 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 4: They were the first team to play overseas, They were 139 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 4: the first team to play an international game. They were 140 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 4: the first team to play at night under lights, and 141 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 4: they attracted crowds. I think the high point was a 142 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,559 Speaker 4: crowd of fifty three thousand with another fourteen thousand people 143 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 4: waiting outside. And I think one of the things that 144 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 4: stuck with me they had just the camaraderie that they shared. 145 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 4: They talked about in some of the research that I found, 146 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 4: they were talking about these road trips in their bus 147 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 4: and they would go and they would have to travel 148 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 4: pretty far for games and times, and they would just 149 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 4: be coming back. They would go to the bar, which 150 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 4: their manager really didn't want them to do and didn't 151 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 4: want them drinking and all of that, but they would 152 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 4: they would be singing and just playing. I think they 153 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 4: called it the mouth organ, but they'd have musical instruments 154 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 4: on the bus. And they were friends solidly for years afterwards, 155 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 4: and they became good friends with French players that came 156 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 4: over to play against them and including you know, post 157 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: World War Two, those relationships continued very special. 158 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: I feel like we need a league at their own 159 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: style movie about the Dick Kurrz Ladies. It might already 160 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: exist out in England, but I would like to see 161 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: it here. 162 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, And there was one character who's gotten a certain 163 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 4: amount of press. She was the first woman inducted into 164 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 4: the FA Hall of Fame, and there is a statue 165 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 4: of her. Her name was Lily Parr. She was almost 166 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 4: six week tall. She was recruited when she was fourteen 167 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 4: years old, and she was a chainsmoker even then. She 168 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 4: had a kick. They called it a kick like a mule. 169 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 4: And the story goes that she broke a crossbar with 170 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 4: a shot with her left foot. And then apparently there 171 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 4: was this male goalkeeper who was watching them practice one 172 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 4: day and just kind of saying, ah, yeah, but you 173 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 4: couldn't score on me. So she basically said okay and 174 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 4: lined up, took shot and broke aside. 175 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: So she's the star of the movie, is what you're saying. 176 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: We've already got a lot of main character energy from there. Well, yeah, 177 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: I mean fifty three thousand with another fourteen thousand outside 178 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: who were locked out when the ground was full. There's 179 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: an incredible interest in these women. But then men start 180 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: to come back from the battlefields of Europe. They want 181 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: their jobs and they want their soccer and there's of 182 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: course room for both. But the problem is when the 183 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: women are outdrawing the men, and when there's consternation around 184 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: the results of women drawing so much excitement and enthusiasm 185 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: around something that's unlady like, it results in the men 186 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: in charge deciding to take it away. And we've talked 187 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: on the show before about how the band was clothed 188 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: in the idea that these charity games. They weren't sure 189 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: if all the money was going to the right places, 190 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: but a lot of it actually was rooted in the 191 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: pseudo science. So kicking is too jerky for women. They 192 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: shouldn't be moving their body that way. Of course, the 193 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: goal is to have babies, not to play sports, so 194 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: that ban happens, and I've known about that for a 195 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: number of years now, but I was unaware until I 196 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: read your book that that ban in England from nineteen 197 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: forty one to nineteen seventy one. 198 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: Was mirrored elsewhere. 199 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: Brazil declared a total ban on women's soccer, and Germany 200 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: nineteen forty one to nineteen seventy What was it about 201 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: that thirty year stretch that had all of the men's 202 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: knickers in such a bunch. 203 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 4: The game, I think was seen as inherently threatening to 204 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 4: the social order when women played it. Certainly in Brazil 205 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 4: a lot of the arguments you saw that same kind 206 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 4: of pseudoscience come into play, and you had a doctor 207 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 4: who was informing the like the sporting director for the country, 208 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 4: that maybe this would be harmful to women's organs. And 209 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 4: in Brazil the big focus was soccer is patriotic, it's 210 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 4: your way to It was becoming part of the national 211 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 4: identity for the country, and it was also seen very 212 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 4: much as a pathway to becoming a man. So when 213 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 4: you have women playing it, now that's the problem. Maybe 214 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 4: it's interfering with their ability to become mothers, which is 215 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 4: really their central function in society. But then also there 216 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 4: was this argument. 217 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 3: That there's just questionable moral behavior going on, that maybe 218 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 3: if you're a women soccer player, maybe you're a prostitute. 219 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was shockingly common that they were called actual prostitutes. Like, 220 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: there's zero connection to me between the kind of woman 221 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: as bodily autonomy and is emboldened in her own body 222 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: and sex workers, not that that there actually is a 223 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: shared through line, now that I say that out loud, 224 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: but not in the sense of the way that they 225 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: were being derided for it. And maybe that was their 226 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: concern that if women took control of their own bodies, 227 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: they would. 228 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 2: Want to own them and use them in whatever way 229 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: they chose. 230 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: But that was wild to me how often that was 231 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: the complaint was that they must be prostitutes if they 232 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: wanted to play sports. 233 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 4: Well, I think that it had to do with the 234 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 4: fact that they wouldn't be wearing as many clothes, at 235 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 4: least particularly in the early days, they were wearing fewer clothes, 236 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 4: and maybe they were just inviting all the men to 237 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 4: come and look at them, and so that was kind 238 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 4: of the idea. And then I think there was also 239 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 4: this real fear that a bunch of women hanging out together, 240 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 4: it might turn them into lesbians. Or just the idea 241 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 4: of a bunch of women hanging out together without men 242 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 4: and without having something that's organized around their traditional roles. 243 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 4: I think that was very threatening. 244 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 245 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: I mean, all of this is the thing we've heard 246 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: over and over again in every single space across history. 247 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 3: Right. 248 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: First of all, don't let women get together because they 249 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: might be lesbians, or they might start organizing and realize 250 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: how up and unfair everything and start to want more 251 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: than that. Right, or they might be you know, forgetting 252 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: that their main rule is to have babies. And also 253 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: modesty is very important because the feelings we have about 254 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: you are your fault exactly. Oh okay, So all of 255 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: this is happening, and eventually these bands do go away. 256 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: There were some countries that enjoyed sort of gradual growth 257 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: without bands. Italy formed a national association in nineteen fifty 258 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: fifty seven. Germany put together the first sort of informal 259 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: European championship by the late sixties, a couple different national 260 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: federations and leagues. So some things are growing while these 261 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: three lengthy bands are in place. And you tell A 262 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: great story about Serena Veegman, who's former head coach of 263 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: the European Cup champion Dutch women's national team. Now she's 264 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: manager of the England women's national team, so much success 265 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: there as well. 266 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: She was born in nineteen sixty nine. 267 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: She's playing as a young girl in the Netherlands, falls 268 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: in love with soccer and she had to get very 269 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: creative to play. 270 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: Can you share that story? 271 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. I had an opportunity to speak with her back 272 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, and she had a twin brother. It 273 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 4: was illegal for girls to play in the Netherlands at 274 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 4: that time, so she had a twin brother that she 275 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 4: looked enough like that she could pass. So she cut 276 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 4: off all her hair and would play as him on 277 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 4: the youth teams and then parents would figure it out 278 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 4: and they would complain, and she just said, I don't care, 279 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 4: because I just want to play. 280 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: That's wild the idea that I mean to go fully 281 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: to the length of cutting her hair, and to thank goodness, 282 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: she had a twin she could sign up as well. 283 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: He does exist, he's on the records. 284 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: But two decades later, in nineteen eighty nine, Serena comes 285 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: over to the States to attend and play at UNC. 286 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: So soccer opportunities had made it to the US by then, 287 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: and I want to talk about how we get from 288 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: illegal in the Netherlands, I've got to cut my hair 289 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: and play as a boy to I'm getting to play 290 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: at a major institution in the United States twenty years later. So, 291 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: of course, the big thing is Title nine, after which 292 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: soccer really takes hold for women in the US. But 293 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: before that there's just small, little leagues. The first college 294 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: varsity team is actually in the mid sixties at Castleton 295 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: State College in Vermont. It's getting a little bit popular 296 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: in high school. But then after Title nine, all of 297 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: a sudden, there is this push for play at the 298 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: youth level at high school and colleges, and by nineteen 299 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: eighty one there are almost one hundred varsity programs in 300 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: NCAA women's soccer and even more club teams. So that's really, Heidi, 301 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: We're telling all this history around the globe, but that's 302 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: really where the story of women's soccer in America starts. 303 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that what was different here is that, 304 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 4: unlike all of these traditional soccer playing countries, really it 305 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 4: was a marginalized sport. So it was for immigrants, mainly 306 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 4: immigrant men, and suburban America really didn't know anything about it, 307 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 4: and yet ironically that's exactly where it took off. So 308 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 4: AY just exploded in nineteen seventy two. My brother and 309 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: I were part of that explosion, and you had all 310 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 4: of these people who were brand new to the game 311 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 4: suddenly embracing it. But it's very much happening. It's a groundswell. 312 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 4: It's coming from the ground up, not the other way around. 313 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 4: And I think that why US women came to dominate 314 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 4: for so long was just because there wasn't any active 315 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: resistance to girls playing, unlike in Germany or the Netherlands, 316 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 4: or Brazil or England or these places where it was 317 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 4: just so culturally unacceptable to play even into the nineties, 318 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 4: and still in places today there's that. So I think 319 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 4: that that was just a difference that women here had 320 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 4: that other places really they did not. 321 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: You weave your own story of being a soccer player 322 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: and eventually a coach into the book, and you came 323 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: around a little bit later, but you got to experience 324 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: a lot of this growth firsthand and to see that 325 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: while you weren't prevented from playing, there were no bands. 326 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't illegal, it was a push for it because 327 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: of Title nine. There was also still such a limited 328 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: number of resources. There was still an expectation that it 329 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: would be for fun. You're probably not going to have 330 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: the nicest of facilities and places to play and everything else. 331 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: But you're telling that story as the US women's national team, 332 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: almost in spite of all of that, is capturing the 333 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: hearts and minds of the US while being underfunded by 334 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: their own feration, while pushing back against larger belief systems 335 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: around women and women's sports. 336 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 2: The first national team gets assembled in. 337 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: Eighty five, not a lot of fanfare, there definitely not 338 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: a lot of money, as they got sent over wearing 339 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: the men's hand me downs. But then a women's league 340 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: launches in ninety five, the USLW not fully professional, but 341 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: there's a league starting two thousand and one, the first 342 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: women's league in the world to pay all of its 343 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: players as professionals. 344 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 2: That was, of course the WUSA. 345 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: So why was America this place that's late adopters to 346 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: the game, where it's really not endemic to the society, 347 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: The first to see a pro women's league, Well. 348 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 4: I think you have to credit the ninety nine ers 349 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 4: for that they had, as you said, like there was 350 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 4: no support for them really from FIFA. There was no 351 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 4: support from or minimal support from US Soccer prior to 352 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 4: that ninety nine World Cup. So they were actually out 353 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 4: barnstorming the country, going to all these girls soccer clinics, 354 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 4: talking to parents and just saying come see it, and 355 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 4: they are responsible for they filled those stadiums. I think 356 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 4: that once that had happened, this is something that girls 357 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 4: and women had been wanting forever, is to have a 358 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 4: genuine professional league, but no one could see it, No 359 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 4: one could see it as an actual possibility. And then 360 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 4: the ninety nine World Cup really changed that, and so 361 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 4: for the first time it seemed like, well, there's a 362 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 4: fan base here. But of course, as we've seen with 363 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 4: a lot of World Cups, take these things take time, 364 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 4: and that fan base that shows up for World Cups 365 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 4: does not necessarily show up for clubs, and so that's 366 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 4: really what happened with that first league, along with just 367 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 4: financial woes and under investment and things like that. But 368 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 4: I think that just for the first time, there was 369 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 4: that real sense of we could do this, this is 370 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 4: possible in this country. 371 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, the league spent its initial forty million dollar budget 372 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: planned to last five years by the end of the 373 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: first season, so that was a bit of a problem. 374 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: There was a bit of a confusing TV presence. The 375 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: fans weren't always sure where to watch and how to watch, 376 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: and so that awareness piece, the coverage and media piece 377 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: that still sometimes plays women's sports was definitely even more 378 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: evident back then. So the WUSA folds after three seasons, 379 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: they have reported losses of about one hundred million dollars, 380 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: and yet six years later people say, okay, now's a 381 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: better time. Women's Professional Soccer WPS starts up. Runs from 382 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: twenty nine to twenty twelve. So we've heard a lot 383 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: since about these legal battles with folks like the owner 384 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: of Magic Jack and lack of resources invested. It sort 385 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: of has a similar path, which is like a lot 386 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: of enthusiasm, excitement, and it doesn't quite hit. So the 387 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: NWSL launches third times the charm and slowly grows into 388 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: what we see today, which is one of the best 389 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: women's leagues in the world. 390 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: But the progress doesn't come without pain. 391 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: This is not a straight line up into the right 392 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: for the NWSL. There were toxic environments, abusive coaches, a 393 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: lack of coverage, and those have really been themes across 394 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: the history of women's sports, along with a sexist slant 395 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: in the way the women's success is covered. 396 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 2: So in the book you. 397 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: Share two particularly infuriating tales about this. The first one 398 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety five, a Brazilian magazine quote unquote 399 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: celebrating and I'm definitely putting that in quotations the women's 400 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: national team participating in the second FIFA recognized Women's World Cup. 401 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: So tell us how this magazine chose to celebrate the team. 402 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 4: So they had a Women's World cover that basically was 403 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 4: a bunch of models in hot pants touching each other suggestively. 404 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 4: And this was somehow supposed to honor and recognize the 405 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 4: women's national team, which of course it did not. And 406 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 4: it had some headline like oh, they exchanged shirts after 407 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 4: the game, and but just like ugh. 408 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: No, yeah, and they weren't on the team, which is 409 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: an important point. 410 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: It wasn't even just hot from the team. 411 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: It was just random hot women spanking each other in 412 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: football clothes who know how to play ball, and exchange 413 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: shirts after the game. 414 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: Just absolute, flat out objectification. 415 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: That was not a celebration whatsoever of what was actually happening. 416 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: Was it was something that you would like to say 417 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: ended there, but no. 418 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: Twenty years later, we've got a response trying to celebrate 419 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: the twenty fifteen English women's national team who won bronze 420 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: in the Women's World Cup that year, and the response 421 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: from the FA again the actual federation that represents this 422 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: women's team, is a tweet that reads, what. 423 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 4: Something to the effect of tomorrow the Lionesses will go 424 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 4: home to resume their lives as mothers, partners and daughters, 425 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 4: but today they are also heroes something like that, And 426 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 4: there's just this reaction like huh, like and this is 427 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 4: twenty fifteen, which makes it each and so you had 428 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 4: responses like you just scored an own goal. It's just 429 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 4: like what if people to say, you know, you can't imagine, 430 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 4: like imagine after the World Cup with just had and 431 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 4: it's like, yes, lien ol Messi, tomorrow is going back 432 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 4: to become a. 433 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: Dad and isn't that her son and a son and 434 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 2: a brother. Oh god. 435 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: It is this this sexist bullshit that gets in the 436 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: way at every turn, and every time we think we're 437 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: sort of past it, it pops up again another generation later. 438 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 2: It's so frustrating. 439 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: Another thing that pops up over and over again is 440 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: how much progress requires litigation, whether threatened or followed through 441 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: upon one of them. Ninety six, the first Olympics to 442 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: include women's soccer US soccer only, would give players a 443 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: monetary bonus if they won a gold medal. This is 444 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: after a previous time where they just sent everyone a 445 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: congratulations note in five hundred bucks. 446 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: This time was going to be more than that, but 447 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: only if you win it all, nothing else. 448 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: And of course the Forest Gump of women's sports, Billy 449 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: Jean King, give advice to some of the players and says, 450 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: don't do that, don't take that. 451 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: That's not good enough. So nine of them refuse the contract. 452 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: They boycott training camp until just a few months before 453 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: the games, and the federation responds by locking them out 454 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: of training camp when they want to return. They eventually 455 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: come to an agreement, but it's that they get a 456 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: bonus for winning gold or silver. 457 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 2: But bron's absolutely nothing right. 458 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: Of course they wanted all they got twenty thousand dollars. 459 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 2: Hurrah, I guess. 460 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, the problem with that is it didn't really 461 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: solve anything, because the fights continued. So twenty years later 462 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: there's the twenty fifteen turf fight, and tell us about 463 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: that one. Because they didn't even find a way to 464 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: come together. They eventually had to acquiesce. 465 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 4: The Canadian women's broke up in twenty fifteen was played 466 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 4: on field turf. Almost every game was played on field turf, 467 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 4: which has just incredibly damaging effects on the body, whether 468 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 4: you're running on it, and that's really hard on joints. 469 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 4: If you fall on it, it just has more impact. 470 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 4: And so these things were known and it's just not 471 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 4: something that any male national team would ever be expected 472 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 4: to do. And yet that was the standard for that 473 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 4: World Cup, and so there was a huge fight and 474 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 4: a legal fight. Abby Wambach was part of the team 475 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 4: that was spearheading that with athletes from all over the world. 476 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 4: But it was just it was a fight they were 477 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 4: never going to win, going up against FIFA and the 478 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 4: Canadian Soccer Association and in the end they just had 479 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 4: to give it up and to play on it. And 480 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 4: then shortly thereafter US Soccer and all of its wisdom 481 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 4: at the time, there are big congratulations for winning that 482 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 4: World Cup. Was to send the team out on a 483 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 4: victory tour to be played on field turf, and that 484 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 4: is where famously, well, this was slightly different. This was 485 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 4: just a really poor conditioned field that I hate to 486 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 4: say it because it's one of my home states of Hawaii, 487 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 4: but Aloha Stadium had just terrible playing conditions, like just 488 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 4: broken up turf. And that is where Megan Rapino torre 489 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 4: acl again, and so that at that point the team 490 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 4: just refused to play. 491 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, whether it's field turf, whether it's fields that aren't 492 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: ready for us, and that one in particular, the details 493 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: of that Iloha Stadium field, the amount of barriers even 494 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: still left on the field for practice, and the expectation 495 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: that that was good enough and ultimately Repino does get 496 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: injured there. These lessons have to be learned so many 497 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: times before they seem to stick. 498 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: And same goes with the legal fights. 499 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: Thankfully, the fight for pay equity made a massive difference 500 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: and it helped open the door for more success from 501 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: the US women's national team, more success within the NWSL, 502 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: and it has allowed America to turn this import, which 503 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: is soccer as a sport, is an import from England 504 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: and from the rest of the globe where we relate 505 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: adopters to it into an export women's soccer, and the 506 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: ideas and the principles and the foundations and the success 507 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: and the pay equity fight and everything that happened here 508 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: is now being exported around the world. So I wonder 509 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: what you think about this sport that used to be 510 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: for immigrants and women less beloved than so many others 511 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: in America has become something that America is teaching the 512 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: world through the success of its women. 513 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: What do you make of that? 514 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 4: I think it's an amazing journey, And really part of 515 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 4: why I wrote the book is that to me, every 516 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 4: time I look at a women's game, a women's professional game, 517 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 4: and national teams, it's just it's a small miracle, and 518 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 4: I really want people to understand and appreciate what they're 519 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 4: looking at because it didn't just happen. It happened because 520 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 4: of all these women throughout history continuing and having the 521 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 4: resilience to keep playing because they loved it. I think 522 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 4: the fact that it's become this export from America, I 523 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 4: think it would have been really difficult for it to 524 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 4: become that in any other country, just because of all 525 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 4: of the cultural conditions and historic conditions around the game. 526 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 4: But what I have seen happen just globally, people are 527 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 4: looking to the US, not just in soccer, but in 528 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 4: other sports as well, Like I know, and it is 529 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 4: I mean, there is the Billy Jean King factor, no doubt. 530 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 4: So she's in there in the mix. 531 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: Title line and Billy jan King are back and neck 532 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: for like why everything is changing? 533 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, but I think there's teams all over the world 534 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 5: that have taken inspiration from that equity equity fight, and 535 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 5: they have had their own legal challenges, but I think 536 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 5: things are starting to change. 537 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 4: I think that the US team has just brought so 538 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 4: much more awareness to this issue. And it's not just 539 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 4: it's not just soccer and it's not just sports. Like 540 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 4: my boyfriend pointed out, and I hadn't really thought about 541 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 4: it this way, but he said, it's a templar like 542 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 4: the way that they have gone about achieving this over 543 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 4: decades that really is a template for women for how 544 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 4: to deal with these issues. They keep going, they work 545 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 4: with each other, they consult with each other for advice, 546 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 4: and they just they have patients. And I think the 547 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 4: main thing is just they really have across the board, 548 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 4: whether we're talking about eighteen eighties or now. These are 549 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 4: women who have wanted to leave the game better than 550 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 4: they found it, and they really have. And I think 551 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 4: they've also left the world better than they found it 552 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 4: because of making those changes. 553 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a tremendous impact that changes in sport can 554 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: have on changes in culture, and the US women have 555 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: led the way in a lot of those instances, and 556 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: I think, to your point, we don't need another reminder 557 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: of it, but it's yet another reminder that when women 558 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: work together, come together, organized together, and share best practices 559 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: and tips and experiences in case studies, that's when the 560 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: real major change happens. 561 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: Hatty, I just loved the book. 562 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: There's so much more in there that we could talk about, 563 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: so many other great stories, so I encourage everyone to 564 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: go read it. But before I let you go, we 565 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: like to end each episode of this series by learning 566 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: about a few people who have built soccer in America. 567 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 2: So I'm going to ask you. 568 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: For one builder, one grower, one future leader got it first, 569 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,239 Speaker 1: someone that you would give flowers to for being a 570 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: builder of the game here in America. 571 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 4: Mary Harvey, first goalkeeper for the US women's national team 572 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 4: at the first World Cup, in well ninety one, the 573 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 4: first FIFA acknowledged. She is also the first director, first 574 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 4: female director hired by FIFA. It's not even so much 575 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 4: about the game in America, so forgive me, but she 576 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 4: really changed the game while she was at FIFA. Now 577 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 4: she is the executive director of the Center for Sport 578 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 4: and Human Rights. And said to me, she's the epitome 579 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: of what when and bring to this game because it's 580 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 4: always just, it's always more. It's not just let's make 581 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 4: let me just go make billions of dollars, it's let 582 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 4: me make the sport better, let me make the world better. 583 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 4: And she is absolutely that and continues to be that. 584 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: Someone who's played an outsized role in growing footy here 585 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: in America. 586 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 4: I think Michelle Kang just with all of her investment, 587 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 4: she was one of the earlier people to do that. 588 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 4: And then I think it set the example. And then 589 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 4: you had what's happening in Kansas City with Chris Nangie Long, 590 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 4: with the MA homes, with other people who are looking 591 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 4: for ways to invest in, looking for things to invest in. 592 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 4: It showed that, ah, here's someone who really believes that 593 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 4: this is a worthy investment. I'm going to look into this, 594 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 4: and so I think she opened that door, and it's 595 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 4: it's just continued to grow exponentially. 596 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: Someone you think will play a big role for the 597 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: future of women's soccer in the US. 598 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 4: I think it's players, Like Ali Center, It's players. It's 599 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 4: like Trinity Rodman. For so long, it was just like, oh, 600 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 4: please pay us, please, please treat us equally, please, And 601 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 4: now I think the current generation of players are just like, no, no, 602 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 4: we just we absolutely deserve this. This is not a question, 603 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 4: it's not a discussion, like this is what we're worth. 604 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 4: So I don't have a specific example. 605 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: Now that's great. 606 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: I think players is a great answer, because not just 607 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: that they need to carry on the fight and not 608 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: get complacent because of the fight that came before them 609 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: that earned them the salaries they're getting now, but also 610 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: because winning is the ultimate way to prove your point, 611 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: and for the US women to keep winning and keep 612 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: staying at the highest level is the best way for 613 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: the sport to continue to help change culture in America. 614 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: Losing teams don't have nearly the impact. 615 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: We need only look to the men side to see 616 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: how it hasn't quite hit the same way as the 617 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: women and that's not a shot, that's just a fucking facts. Heidi, 618 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me, and thanks for 619 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: the fantastic book. 620 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Really a pleasure to be here. 621 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: Thanks again to Heidi for taking the time. We're so 622 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: excited about this series and so excited to continue the 623 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: conversation about the history and impact of women's soccer in 624 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: the US with other guests in the coming weeks as 625 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: we count down to the Women's World Cup in Brazil. 626 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: We got to take another break when we come back. 627 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: Wind Sprints by executive Order, stick around welcome back slices. 628 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to 629 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: get in the game every day too, So here's our 630 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: good game play of the day. Pick up a copy 631 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: of Heidi's book, play On From Adversity to Advantage through 632 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty years of women's soccer. So many 633 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: incredible anecdotes and pieces. 634 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: Of history in there. Link to it in the show notes. 635 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: We always love to hear from you, so hit us 636 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: up on email Good game at Wondermedia network dot com 637 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two 638 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: O four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe, rate 639 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: and review. 640 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: I tell you every day and it's super easy. 641 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: Watch a basketball court fit for a president who's fit 642 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: in both the American and British sense of the word. 643 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: Wink wink, rating sixty thousand square feet of athletics space review. 644 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: My WNBA All Star Week started with a trip to 645 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: Home Court at the Obama Presidential Center for the Power 646 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: Play Possibility, Girls, Health and Confidence Summit put on by 647 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: the Obama Foundation and Pinterest. 648 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: I got the chance to chop it up with. 649 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: Former Chicago skuy player turned manager of Athletics and sports 650 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: Leadership at the Obama Center, Line Harper and speak to 651 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: girls from the Chicago area. An added bonus, I got 652 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: to visit Home Court, an athletic complex on the site 653 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: of the Obama Presidential Center with a full MNBA slash 654 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: WNBA regulation size basketball court framed on one side by 655 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: Florida ceiling windows looking out at a park in a 656 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: beautiful tree. 657 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 2: There are murals on the walls. 658 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: Tributes to great athletes from Chicago and beyond, and tons 659 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: of special little touches. This week, the WNBA will hold 660 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: several events at Home Court and the Obama Presidential Center, 661 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: making it the first pro sports league to visit the 662 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: new facility. 663 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: Pretty nice flicks. 664 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: I'm crossing all my fingers and toes that Barack and 665 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: Michelle Obama show up this week and I get to 666 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: put up a few shots with my favorite former Potus 667 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 1: and Floatus. Also, I got to go into that library 668 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,919 Speaker 1: part and see if my book is in there. 669 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 2: You guys think it is, No, not yet? Okay, well 670 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 2: maybe I'll bring a copy in, slide it in. Now, 671 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 2: it's your turn, y'all rate and review. Thanks for listening, 672 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: See you tomorrow. Good game, Heidi, Good game. 673 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: Players like Serena Viegman who got creative in order to 674 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: play the game. 675 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 2: Thank you. 676 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: The same sex is bullshit chasing women athletes down decade 677 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: after decade. Good game was Sarah Spain is an iHeart 678 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. 679 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 680 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. 681 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: Production by Wonder Media. 682 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: Network, our producers are Alex Azzi and Bianca Hillier. Our 683 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and 684 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rudder, Lucy Jones, Britney 685 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: Martinez and Gianna Palmer. Production assistant from Avery LOFTUS and 686 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: I'm Your Host Sarah Spain