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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Decklas. We're

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Speaker 1: going to hit you with a classic this week. This

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Speaker 1: is a cloacle classic actually, because we're going to take

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Speaker 1: you back to dinosaur sex. That's right. I also like

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Speaker 1: to call this our dinosaur hot tub time machine, because

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Speaker 1: we try to figure out how did dinosaurs do it?

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Speaker 1: So we bring this to you guys. And and by

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Speaker 1: the way, I wanted to mention that this is the

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Speaker 1: podcast that are rather the episode that is the reason

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Speaker 1: why I have a great sign in my cubicle that

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Speaker 1: says cloaca av Thank you kope. I cherished that, so

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Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoy this episode. This is a

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Speaker 1: perfectly legitimate um collision of of the growing up world

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Speaker 1: childhood world is the question of dinosaurs having sex with

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Speaker 1: one another. She even right there, I'm like, really, my

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Speaker 1: friend brontosaurus, I know at potosaurus, but I will continue

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Speaker 1: to call brontosaurs brontosaurs because again, from my childhood, I

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Speaker 1: cannot imagine Brontosaurus kicking boots, you know, because these these

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Speaker 1: were our friends when we're kids, you know, at these

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Speaker 1: little plastic dinosaurs. If you're like me, you you memorized

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Speaker 1: all their names. Are a lot of their names and uh,

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Speaker 1: and you had a big box full of them, and

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Speaker 1: you'd get them out and they yeah, they'd wrestle each

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Speaker 1: other and they bite each other and and the t

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Speaker 1: rex would stab I mean the they try saratops would

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Speaker 1: stab the t rex in the gut, and the t

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Speaker 1: rex would try and bite the back of the the

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Speaker 1: the the try sterotops head. Uh. Good times, Yeah, those

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Speaker 1: are good times. And never did you imagine that one

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Speaker 1: day that you would go on the internet and just

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Speaker 1: do a simple search for like dinosaur mating and find

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Speaker 1: a photo gallery of dinosaurs doing it. Yeah, And it's

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because with normal animals, I mean, everybody grows

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Speaker 1: up stay loving, loving, like little girls love horses, and

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Speaker 1: guys love lizards and stuff, uh and other animals as well,

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Speaker 1: And then you go to the zoo and something weird

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Speaker 1: is lapble to happen, like especially if you go to

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Speaker 1: like the Georgia Aquarium Um, which is which is which

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Speaker 1: is awesome place. But occasionally you'll see one of the

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Speaker 1: belloogle whales, you know, slip out of court, screwed penis

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Speaker 1: and go chasing one of the other whales around, and

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Speaker 1: you know, their children watching and and to you know,

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Speaker 1: to to paraphrase arrested development. You know, bam, I'm all

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Speaker 1: grown up now seeing that. So so since you just

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Speaker 1: had that experience right that aquariums, you feel like we

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Speaker 1: we could probably talk about dyno sex. Yeah, it's uh,

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Speaker 1: because we've gotten to the point where, I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: a we're able to we have enough data to sort

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Speaker 1: of ask these questions anyway if you're not necessarily answered them.

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Speaker 1: And also, reproduction is a vital, if not the vital,

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Speaker 1: part of any organism's life. Well, and if you think

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Speaker 1: about domospaurs too that I mean, they primarily dominated the

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Speaker 1: landscape for a hundred million years right so or thereabouts

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Speaker 1: um in terms of domination, So obviously they were doing

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Speaker 1: something right in terms of reproduction. It's just so very

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Speaker 1: difficult to really pin it down like exactly how they

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Speaker 1: were they were doing this. But it's also kind of

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Speaker 1: fascinating because we don't know exactly, we've got some interesting theories.

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Speaker 1: So before we get get back into the the grizzly

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Speaker 1: details of the Jurassic alright, how to do it? The

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Speaker 1: brown chicken brown cow thing? But no, that was sorry,

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Speaker 1: that was a naughty music sound that the brown chicken brown.

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Speaker 1: It's like a joke about like, oh man, I forget

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Speaker 1: how the joke goes now, but the punchline is this

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Speaker 1: brown chicken, brown cow, and you're supposed to say it

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Speaker 1: like brown chicken out that. Yeah, I totally butchered that

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Speaker 1: joke though, So my apologies. I don't even Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: quite sure it is and I love it. But anyway, so, um,

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Speaker 1: how do we know anything about what dinosaurs or any

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Speaker 1: prehistoric creature did or did not do? I mean, it

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Speaker 1: all comes down to it's kind of like solving a crime. Um.

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Speaker 1: There are several different ways of figuring figuring out what happens,

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Speaker 1: several different lens as we look through um there out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they depend on. First, there's cladistics, which is a method

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Speaker 1: of hypothesizing relationships among organisms. You can think of it

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Speaker 1: as creating a family tree with blank spaces for unknown ancestors.

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Speaker 1: They also turned to molecular sequencing, in which they reveal

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Speaker 1: the hierarchy of relationships among different organisms by comparing their

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Speaker 1: molecular details. So think of it again as a family tree,

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Speaker 1: only this time using DNA evidence to figure out what

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Speaker 1: goes where on the chart. And then there's the fossil record,

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Speaker 1: which is quite incomplete. I mean by that's just the

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Speaker 1: fossil record, um, and it's important. Sometimes people will criticize that, like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the fossil records incomplete. How you can improve

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Speaker 1: this that or the other. Well, that's because we're using

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Speaker 1: it along with other tools. Well, and it's a blueprint

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Speaker 1: of sorts, right, so you've got to go along something here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so here's the reason it's incomplete, or the primary reason.

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Speaker 1: Sediment has to cover an organisms remains in order for

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Speaker 1: the long fossilization process. It again, and and most organisms

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Speaker 1: decomposed before this can happen. I mean, think of it.

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Speaker 1: You're some sort of prehistoric creature out there. Um, you've

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Speaker 1: got to be covered in and basically covered in mud

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Speaker 1: after you die for your for your form to be

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Speaker 1: preserved in fossil. So if you if you live in

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Speaker 1: the mud, great, you've got to you've got a leg

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Speaker 1: up on this fossilization process. But if you live in

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Speaker 1: the desert, maybe not. Or if you only occasionally go

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Speaker 1: near the water to drink. Then you've got to it's

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Speaker 1: a question of dying just the right moment and just

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Speaker 1: the right circumstances. And so that that's why trilobites, the

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Speaker 1: ancient marine anthropod Um, are a rather common fossil, while

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Speaker 1: I t Rex is uh is far rare because it's large,

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Speaker 1: it's land dwelling, and it's a top predator. So there's

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Speaker 1: very small percentage of the population trill bites everywhere, but

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Speaker 1: at t rex. Think of it like a pyramid, like

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Speaker 1: the t rex is at the very top, and like

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Speaker 1: for everyone t rex, there's gotta be the next level

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Speaker 1: of predators and pray a little larger in the lump

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Speaker 1: below that is a little larger all the way down

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Speaker 1: to your to the all the different herbivores that they eat,

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Speaker 1: and then the grass that the herbivores eat. So your

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Speaker 1: t rex, your top predator. Fossils are pretty rare, and

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Speaker 1: so so you know, even rare that you would find

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Speaker 1: evidence of, say a t rex engage in a particular activity,

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Speaker 1: especially especially sex. Also, fossils may be set in stone,

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Speaker 1: but they're not figuratively set in stone because they can

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Speaker 1: they can be destroyed and then there's all. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of fossils that we haven't found and will

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Speaker 1: never find mine. Like, if there's a fossil of of

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Speaker 1: two t rex doing it and it just happens to

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Speaker 1: be on the earth under say the Vatican, we're probably

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Speaker 1: never going to get that fossil. That's just up on that. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it's a question right, the soft tissue preservation, right

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Speaker 1: and actually having um reproductive organs intact, which is yes.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's never even been found in an dimostort before.

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Speaker 1: So that's the thing that we can do, is to

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Speaker 1: look at the common ancestors, right for a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a clue um in particular alligators, crocodiles and birds

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Speaker 1: from a time sor like velociraptors. Yes, and just think

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Speaker 1: of it. We see naked birds all the time and

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Speaker 1: there's nothing really really all that scandalous about it, right,

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Speaker 1: Why because they have what is called a cloaca. That's right,

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Speaker 1: a cloaca and this is a cloaca. How how do

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Speaker 1: we talk about chloeca um? Actually in Latin it means

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Speaker 1: tour that's a lovely introduction um, but it's basically an

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Speaker 1: opening for urine excrement. And sex, and we know that

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Speaker 1: crocs have this right, and we also know that female

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Speaker 1: titanosaurs are more like a croc get given the analyzation

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Speaker 1: of well preserved titanosaur eggs, which are rounded like a

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Speaker 1: croc instead of oblong like a bird. So they've sort

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Speaker 1: of extrapolated with that information and said, Okay, since you

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Speaker 1: know the titanosaur had round eggs and they were laid

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Speaker 1: in big clumps much like crocodiles, let's take that logic

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Speaker 1: and extend it out and say that they possibly had

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Speaker 1: a cloaca like a crocodile does. Alright, we're gonna take

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Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we come back, more cloaca.

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Speaker 1: I think one way to think about cloaca is to

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Speaker 1: think of like Barbie and Ken, and how you know,

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Speaker 1: like Barbie and Kin, I can would essentially have chloek. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, yeah, go ahead. And uh And I

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Speaker 1: if my my wife is probably listening to this podcast

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Speaker 1: at some point and and cringing because she's she has

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Speaker 1: this weird fear of birds or aver she I mean,

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Speaker 1: she likes s burds, but but they kind of creep

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Speaker 1: her out with some of the things, like their black

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Speaker 1: beady eyes and their beaks and their tongues and their cloaca. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't want to know about the cloeca, right, And

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Speaker 1: h there's a great, great little bit um here talking

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Speaker 1: about the possibility of dinosaurs having cloaca from Carmelow m

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Speaker 1: Alfie of Australia's Cosmos magazine, which has an online presence.

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Speaker 1: It's really cool as well. And this is what this

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Speaker 1: author says. Quote if dinosaurs also had cloaca, according to theory,

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Speaker 1: penetration would have occurred when the male cloaca filled up

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Speaker 1: with blood and bulged out into the cloaca of the female,

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Speaker 1: much like a couple of plumbers plungers pushing up against

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Speaker 1: each other unquote. And this folks is called the kloacal kiss. Yes,

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Speaker 1: by the way, which it's like an std I have

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Speaker 1: to say, like kids, watch out, don't get the cloakal kiss.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so yeah, I mean that's shaking your head, um,

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Speaker 1: But that's that's what the cloaca is, or that what

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Speaker 1: they think it is in the dinosaurs and how it

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Speaker 1: may have um operated so to speak. And also we

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Speaker 1: should say here too that within the cloaka for the

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Speaker 1: male with the penis would have been concealed. Um if

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Speaker 1: if dinosaurs in fact had penises, I mean there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a possibility that they actually just ejected semen from

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Speaker 1: one cloaka to the other, you know, actually in that

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Speaker 1: whole sort of with the plumber plunging uh set up

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Speaker 1: that you just talked about. So it's basically sort of

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Speaker 1: like backing up the cloacas next to each other fturings

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Speaker 1: and ejecting the from one cloka to the other. This

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Speaker 1: is science. Sometimes sciences is pretty grass it is again,

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Speaker 1: this is why it's like, oh dinosaurs really yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: well you talked about the possibility of dinosaurs actually having

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Speaker 1: a member as it were. The late the British paleontologist L.

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Speaker 1: Beverlely Housta wrote back in that that he thought that

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Speaker 1: they might if they were humped like birds. They'd have

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Speaker 1: to get past that big, powerful tail in order to

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Speaker 1: do it, so they would need to have a corkscrew

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Speaker 1: shaped penis about three meters long. But then house It

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Speaker 1: goes on to say, quote, yet there is no evidence

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Speaker 1: that they had such a grandiose organ. Maybe they lay

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Speaker 1: side to side, mail to pour and female to starboard

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Speaker 1: and sort of snuggled up together bottom to bottom. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are all sorts of different positions that people have

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Speaker 1: imagined for this, Like I've heard like housecat position, female

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Speaker 1: down on the elbows and then raised the hind quarters

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Speaker 1: up in the air. Okay, so like when you pet

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Speaker 1: a cat in their right right, Sam, But um, not

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Speaker 1: with the dinosaurs would be saying that they would be

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Speaker 1: I guess if the petted them on the head. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I mean it depends, like which are we

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Speaker 1: talking about stackasaurus here? Because I mean just even the

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Speaker 1: act of petting could be dangerous. White, And this is

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Speaker 1: another reason why it's kind of hard for us to

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Speaker 1: wrap our minds around it. One because of course we're

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Speaker 1: coming at this as mammals, right, We've got our own

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Speaker 1: ideas of past sex happens. But another is because we

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Speaker 1: know that all the different plates and the pointy parts,

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Speaker 1: uh depending on the dinosaur can really make the act difficult.

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Speaker 1: So again, that's why they all these different theories behind

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Speaker 1: mount is one that is really very popular. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: thought that light giraffes and elephants that this would be

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Speaker 1: the most common position, But it's also pointed out, as

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Speaker 1: you pointed out that thick tails, plates and uh, weight

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Speaker 1: distribution would make this really difficult. Yeah, weight is a

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Speaker 1: big one. Um, and the just general size. Like there's

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Speaker 1: some discussions about how like stay a long neck dinosaur, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like Chronosaurus. Yeah, there are some some discussions that, well,

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Speaker 1: it could do it from behind, but it would need

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Speaker 1: to keep its head horizontal because it went vertical. Uh,

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Speaker 1: then blood flow would be an issue. But then again,

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Speaker 1: the giraffe is a classic example of how even with

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Speaker 1: that long neck, it has special adaptations that allow it

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Speaker 1: to continually pump blood to the brain, has a giant heart. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're just such such a giant heart. It's such a

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Speaker 1: giant hearted creature. Um. And then there's also scientific paper

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Speaker 1: entitled Fusion of caudal vertebrae in Late Jurassic Sauropods, So

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Speaker 1: again we're talking about brnoslaurs here. They found that the

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Speaker 1: fusions of the tail vertebrae closest to the pelvic girdle

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Speaker 1: were calming among these types of dinosaurs, possibly so that

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Speaker 1: their tails wouldn't snap off during mating. So it's this

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Speaker 1: kind of fusion that could might only occur in female

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Speaker 1: dinosaurs that could lift their tails and arch during mating,

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Speaker 1: but their tails don't snap off because interesting too, their

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Speaker 1: tail snapped off like lizards. No, no, no, I mean

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Speaker 1: this is the idea here is that the fusion was

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Speaker 1: a little bit wonky right on that vertebra it said

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Speaker 1: that they could get that arch in the tail. So

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Speaker 1: that's that's a theory. Another theory is that I like

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Speaker 1: to call the hot tub theory. This is because of

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Speaker 1: their weight in size, right, yeah, yeah, A lot larger diners, right,

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Speaker 1: if they're weighing around a hundred thousand pounds, would have

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Speaker 1: the most difficult time in mounting um without crushing each other, right,

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Speaker 1: or maiming each other. So it's thought that they would

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Speaker 1: go like light crocs, that they would just float in

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Speaker 1: the water and that would give them some buoyancy and

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Speaker 1: kind of give them a more gentle way to dock

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Speaker 1: their chloeca so speak um. And then there's anything you

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Speaker 1: already mentioned it too. There's a sort of a spooning

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Speaker 1: action they could have laid down on their sides or

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Speaker 1: belly to belly. That's adorable. The idea of dinosaur spinning. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that one I can cotton too, because that doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: too graphic. Yeah, um, and it seems like they'd have

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Speaker 1: some nice pillow talk there too. And then there's another

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Speaker 1: one that seems this one I really kind of it

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Speaker 1: seems simple enough, but I keep trying to imagine it.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of backing it up position, which they face

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Speaker 1: opposite directions, and then they back up into each other

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Speaker 1: and again they align the cloaca. Okay, now there are

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Speaker 1: some animals that end up in that alignment in the wild.

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Speaker 1: I believe cloaca. But yeah, anyway, I think I saw

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Speaker 1: the Nature video once. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's again, these are awkward thing. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't make I have to say, it doesn't make dinosaurs

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Speaker 1: sex seem all that like, wow, dinosaurs they were really

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Speaker 1: romantic one. I mean, it just kind of underlines how

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Speaker 1: all reproduction is kind of weird. You know, it's just

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Speaker 1: kind of weird and messy and and uh and and

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Speaker 1: not all that dignified. So we hate to think of

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Speaker 1: our our childhood friends engaging in this kind of activity.

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Speaker 1: But the hot tub part, I mean, that doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: so bad, you right, Okay, the hot tub thing I

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Speaker 1: guess could could work. It's you know, it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like they're flying. It's witless and beautiful, right. They

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Speaker 1: could be looking up at the moon and stars resetting

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Speaker 1: poetry to which maybe they do that and then they

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Speaker 1: spin it on the shore. Ye go for that? There

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Speaker 1: you go. Yeah, let's it's it's the plunging in the

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Speaker 1: cloaca and the backing up that seems a little awkward,

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Speaker 1: I think. Um, but you know, we should probably talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about some courtship rituals too. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know they're not just doing it. They're they're

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Speaker 1: probably engaging in some sort of activity. I mean, especially

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Speaker 1: when you look at if you look at any kinship

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Speaker 1: to birds, I mean, birds have some of the most

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Speaker 1: spectacular courtship rituals imaginable. Um, you know, just watch a

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Speaker 1: few episodes of of of Edinburgh's The Life of Birds

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Speaker 1: and you'll see activity. They're just like wow, these guys

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Speaker 1: really yeah, they make it sexy, right, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: like all sorts of plumage calls, building little dances, building

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Speaker 1: a little structures that have been decorated to woo their mate.

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Speaker 1: I mean it really gets phenomenal. Right, It's very cool.

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Speaker 1: And again, we don't know so much about what Donald

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Speaker 1: shows might have done. But we can think about again,

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Speaker 1: like you know, sore pod like a brontosaurus, apatosaurusy um,

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Speaker 1: long tails, long necks. It's very possible that they might

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Speaker 1: have done some sort of dance in which they intertwined

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Speaker 1: their next a sexy dance is slow dance like a

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Speaker 1: Valentine's Day, uh dance together I don't know, um, you

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Speaker 1: know fifth grade you know, hearts all around them, um,

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Speaker 1: but in their tails intertwining too. So and then again

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Speaker 1: with the males and the next. It's very possible that

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Speaker 1: they might if use those to tussle with other males

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Speaker 1: or to hurt other males away so that they'd have

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Speaker 1: less competition with the female they were trying to meet with.

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Speaker 1: I like the idea of like a fearsome t rex,

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Speaker 1: like spending hours and hours and hours doing some sort

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Speaker 1: of silly, tedious dance to try and woo amate, you know.

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Speaker 1: I like the idea with like the like the short

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Speaker 1: little arms do some sort of like I don't know, um,

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Speaker 1: like you know, neck and pop them locking thing. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, well that that would would. That's the problem

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Speaker 1: too with the the t rex arms, because they have

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Speaker 1: those two little fingers. Yeah, so it looks like they're

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Speaker 1: doing ironic quotation marks every time they say anything. They're like,

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Speaker 1: I really love you. And then then the other dinosaur

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Speaker 1: gets all up in arms because they're like, oh you

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Speaker 1: love me great, and I'm going to go mate with

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Speaker 1: this other t rex. Right, So we think communication is

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Speaker 1: hard now, yeah, I mean think about it then, um

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Speaker 1: and then some other folks too. If you think about

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Speaker 1: the source and the pelice so sourus. Those are the

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Speaker 1: thin back a lizard looking dinosaurs. Oh yes, like the

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Speaker 1: like was it demetri done? Oh? Man? See the eight

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Speaker 1: year old me would would be great on this podcast

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Speaker 1: if you remember that there, because there were two. There

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Speaker 1: was the cool looking one and the kind of plumper

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Speaker 1: looking one and one was a carnivore and one was

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Speaker 1: the eight year old you. Right now, I would be

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Speaker 1: crying under like what are you talking about? What do

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Speaker 1: you mean they're having sex? Um? But yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: these these are the crest that are they're really or

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Speaker 1: neat and the researchers think that they've actually they had

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Speaker 1: developed as a way to woo the ladies. Actually, because

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Speaker 1: the crest be got bigger and bigger and bigger over time,

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Speaker 1: and they really didn't serve any function. I mean, think

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Speaker 1: about hauling that sort of crest on your back all

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Speaker 1: the time. Well, I have heard that the crest could

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Speaker 1: have been used for to to warm the blood. You

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Speaker 1: send the blood up through those veins and veins and

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Speaker 1: n crests, and then the the sunlight has more ready access. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well this one they were saying that because it kept

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Speaker 1: getting larger and larger, they were they were looking at

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Speaker 1: more like plumage um and also that they could you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe even use that to sort of look like they

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Speaker 1: were bowing up against another um would be suitor. So again,

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Speaker 1: if you look at all these ridges and the plates

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Speaker 1: that are on a lot of the dinosaurs, many of

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Speaker 1: them could be used, um, you know, to fight off

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Speaker 1: other dinosaurs. And we already know that right now, but

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Speaker 1: in the courtship ritual, certainly it could be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: look at my nice ridges, my nice crest. So there

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Speaker 1: you have it. Dinosaur Sex classic episode. A lot of

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Speaker 1: cool science in that one. And hey, if you want

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Speaker 1: to reach out to us, let us know you think

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Speaker 1: about this episode, what you think about dinosaurs getting it on,

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Speaker 1: or you ever just want to make a cloaked joke.

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Speaker 1: You can find us all the normal places. Want to Tumbler,

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Speaker 1: We're on Facebook, We're on Twitter, and our homepages Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where you will

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Speaker 1: find our audio podcast, our videos are blog posts and

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Speaker 1: links out to all of our social media uh places.

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Speaker 1: And you can always send us a line and can

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Speaker 1: be so at Below the Mind at discovery dot com.

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Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, does

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