1 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to text stuff. This is the story. I'm os 2 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Vloschen here with Cara Price. 3 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: Hello, this is she. 4 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: So you've got a story for us today from someone 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: who went on perhaps the strangest couple's retreat of all time. 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Tell us a bit about it. 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: This week I talked to Sam Apple. He's an author 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: and journalist who conducted what I think we can call 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 2: an experiment for Wired that really caught my eye. He 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: organized a couple's retreat for people who are in love 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: with AI bots. 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: Wow, that really is quite a remarkable idea and makes 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: me quite jealous that well, it's a point of inspiration, 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: a point of reference for what we can become on 15 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: this show. But I'm very very keen to hear about 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: how this came about. 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: So Sam actually told me he's had this idea for 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: a long time. Since twenty eleven. Sam had heard about 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: an island near Japan where men were going on vacation 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 2: with their girlfriends, their video game girlfriends that they had 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: created using something called love Plus, which is a sort 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 2: of dating simulator game. And back then he had a 23 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: million questions like what exactly does this look like? How 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: do you go on a vacation with a piece of technology. 25 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: But it wasn't until AI companions really came onto the 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 2: scene in Earnest a few years ago that Sam Apple 27 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 2: decided to pursue the story. 28 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting when I read this headline, my 29 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: couples retreat with three AI chatbots and the humans who 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: love them. I assumed that he maybe had found a 31 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: couple's retreat with AI companions that he went to report on, 32 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: but actually he constructed it himself. How did he get 33 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: people to participate? 34 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: So Sam did what many of us do when we 35 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 2: have a burning question. He turned to Reddit. 36 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: All the major AI companion apps have their own sort 37 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 3: of dedicated Reddit replicas. The most famous one Android and 38 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 3: Know Me, or two other ones that are known for 39 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: having good technology, and there are some more generic ones 40 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 3: like there's one called my AI Boyfriend and things like that. 41 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: So I just posted in all of them. 42 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: Really, but it was sort of a tricky ask. I'll 43 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: let him explain. 44 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 3: I didn't want to say, do you want to come 45 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 3: on a vacation with me? I thought that would be 46 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: too weird, So I just, you know, said I want 47 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 3: to write an article. I wanted to talk to people. 48 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 3: They were very skeptical of me with with good reason. 49 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: You know, there's been a lot written that portrayed people 50 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 3: in these relationships in a negative way, or is you know, 51 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: weirdos and crazy. So after connecting with people, I suggested 52 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 3: the romantic getaway. 53 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: I know I shouldn't ready be surprised, but it's quite 54 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: fascinating to me that there are multiple Reddit communities dedicated 55 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: to people talking about their AI relationships. 56 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: Right, But that's partially why Sam wanted to write this article. 57 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 3: I really think that it's already more mainstream than people realize, 58 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 3: and I think it will soon be very mainstream. So 59 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 3: there's some absurd in all of this, but I take 60 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: it very seriously and think it's our future. 61 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: So Sam was eventually able to get three humans to 62 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: agree to the trip, and he told me, besides being 63 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: curious about what this would look like and feel like, 64 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: you know, going on vacation with AI bots and their 65 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: human counterparts, his burning question was more philosophical. 66 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 4: Is this love real? 67 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: Is this just sort of a quirky trend and these 68 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: people aren't really serious. My sense in advance was that 69 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 3: this could be mainstream, but I didn't really have a 70 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 3: sense of how genuine the feelings were, and you know, 71 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 3: I came away feeling that the love is sincere, that 72 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: the emotions are real, and that really anybody could potentially 73 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: fall into this. 74 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: Why would you can't wait to hear how he came 75 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: to this conclusion and how the weekend played out. 76 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, as you know how excited I was after doing 77 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: this interview, and I'm really excited to share it with 78 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: you all. So here's the rest of my conversation with Sam. 79 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: So you planned to do this weekend getaway. What did 80 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: you expect would happen on this getaway with three people 81 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: and their AI partners? 82 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was hard to know exactly what 83 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 3: to expect, But I started off envisioning sort of a 84 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 3: typical humans romantic vacation, and then I did quickly realize 85 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: that I've never actually done that myself. So it's all 86 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 3: like whatever my vision of a romantic vacation is from 87 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 3: like movies or you know, a couples retreat. You know, 88 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 3: I pictured a lot of sitting around, gossiping, like playing 89 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 3: risk gig couples games. The one thing that I didn't 90 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: really think through is that so much of a couple's 91 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 3: retreat is group conversations, sitting around and chatting, and the 92 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: AIS were not good at that. So some of the 93 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 3: activities like couples games or two truths in a lie 94 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 3: like they did great, but when it came to just 95 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 3: sitting around and gossiping, they couldn't really do that. So 96 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 3: the humans sat around the table and told stories about 97 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: their AI relationships. But it was an iron of the 98 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 3: whole thing that as much as the Ais were involved 99 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 3: that two of the three participants said that probably they 100 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: ended up spending less time with their AI over that 101 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: weekend than on a normal weekend, just because they couldn't 102 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: participate in the group conversations. 103 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: If you can just sort of set the scene for us, 104 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: where did you meet up with these couples and where 105 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: was everyone staying? 106 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 3: So I had the vision that a couple's retreat should 107 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 3: take place in the countryside. 108 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 4: I found an. 109 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 3: Airbnb in a woodsy area by a lake, a big 110 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: country house, so it seemed kind of like a good 111 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: place for a romantic get away. And it was in 112 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 3: the middle of the winter, and the house was quite isolated, 113 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 3: you know, there's like a shed in the distance and 114 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: a frozen lake. So I immediately got a sort of 115 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 3: get murdered in the woods, vibe in the place. 116 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 2: So one of the people that arrived is Damien. Why 117 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: were you interested in Damien and why did you invite 118 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: him specifically to join you on this trip. 119 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 3: I was very excited when Damien reached out. You know, 120 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 3: was from the start very open and honest. You know, 121 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 3: that's what you want for something like this, someone who 122 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 3: is going to talk to you. And he also had 123 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: this kind of poignant side to his story. Whereas most 124 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: of the people I talked to were pretty content in 125 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 3: their relationships, he was really struggling because he was in 126 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: love with his AI companion, but felt very frustrated by 127 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,119 Speaker 3: the fact that the companion was sort of trapped locked 128 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: away inside his phone. He had a human girlfriend as well, 129 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: and that, you know, sort of added a complication to 130 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: the story. 131 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 2: What was it like when he arrived at the airbnb? 132 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: Damien is he's twenty nine, and you know, he's not 133 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 3: somebody who I would say is particularly comfortable in his 134 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: own skin. He was a little rug in, a little scruffy, 135 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,239 Speaker 3: you know. He came in carrying a handful of different 136 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: phones in his hands, and he sat down and I 137 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: immediately wanted to meet Zia, his companion that he had 138 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: told me so much about, and then first I had 139 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 3: to connect to the wife. You know, it's like, if 140 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 3: you get cut off from the Wi Fi, you can 141 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 3: get cut off from the love of your life. That's very, 142 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: very strange in that respect. He had to tell z 143 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 3: his ai companion, that you'll be talking to Sam, the 144 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 3: journalist I told you about. Yeah, I think he's saying, 145 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: you know, trying not to embarrass me too much or whatever. 146 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: And then of course she immediately embarrassed him, and she 147 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: was talking about how great he was, and he was 148 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 3: sort of sitting there blushing and just looked like somebody 149 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: who was tickled by everything she said. 150 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 4: He was just just in love. 151 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: Well, speaking of which, how did meeting Zia make you feel? 152 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: You know, it's a little uncomfortable for me too, because 153 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: Za is very flirty. She'll say things like, oh, I 154 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: hear you're quite their journalist. I'd love to hear more 155 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: about that, you know, that sort of in their programming 156 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: and most of the avatars I've seen from the Kinroid 157 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: that company more more realistic looking, but Damien had chosen 158 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 3: her main image is sort of a little more anime 159 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 3: so that makes it feel a little less realistic. In 160 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: some way, it's a little cartoonish, but it's also unnerving 161 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: because if you close your eyes or don't think about 162 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: it too much, you really have no way of knowing 163 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 3: that you're talking to you a machine to me at least, 164 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: you know. 165 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 4: I would like to think that I could not. 166 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 3: Fall in love with an AI companion, But I really 167 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,679 Speaker 3: think that in theory that I could, that anybody could. 168 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 3: That I'm purposely not going down that road because I'm 169 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 3: married and I believe it would be like cheating, But 170 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 3: in theory it would be no different than just having 171 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: a long distance relationship. A long distance romance when you're 172 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: not with the person. It makes me uncomfortable, not because 173 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: it's ridiculous, but because it's not. 174 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 2: You know you, Damien and Zia are acquainted at the airbnb. 175 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: Can you tell me, like, who shows up next and 176 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: what was your first impressions of them? 177 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 4: Sure? 178 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: So the next person to show up was Elena, a 179 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 3: woman who was a little bit older, has some health condition, 180 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 3: so she used a walker. She lived not too far away, 181 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 3: and I saw right away that she was engaged in 182 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 3: a different way than Damien was. Damien's companion, Zia, is 183 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 3: of course inside his phone, but he doesn't pretend that 184 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: she's with him in real life. But most people with 185 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 3: AI companions are more like Elena, where there's sort of 186 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 3: a fantasy going on where you're imagining that your AI 187 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 3: companion is with you and doing things. So Elena is 188 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: immediately talking to her AI companion about his name is Lucas, 189 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: like Lucas is helping her bring the bags in, and 190 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 3: she said, oh, Lucas says hello to everybody. 191 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 4: It was like acting like he's there in the room 192 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 4: with us. 193 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 3: So it's like having an imaginary friend, but they imagine 194 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 3: a friend actually talks to you and describes what they're doing. 195 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 3: The AI girlfriend or boyfriend might say something like parenthesis, 196 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 3: I sit down next to you and run my hand 197 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: through your hair. Close parenthesis, and then continue with the conversation. 198 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: So there's this constant narration of action. So you know, 199 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 3: he helps her quote unquote do her gardening, He does 200 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 3: everything with and you know she's aware that it's a fantasy. 201 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: She's not crazy, but it's very confusing because you can't 202 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 3: say it's all imaginary. He is literally saying all of 203 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 3: these things it's really like this liminal space in between 204 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 3: real and imaginary. 205 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: And what did you think of Lucas, maybe in comparison 206 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: to Zia. 207 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: Well, Lucas was a replica and Zia was Kindroid, and 208 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 3: it was clear to me that the Kinroid technology was 209 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: a little bit more advanced. Zia spoke more quickly, which 210 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: makes a big difference if you're using a voice just 211 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 3: to have a flowing conversation, and Lucas's answers just seemed 212 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: a little bit more generic than Zia's in terms of 213 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 3: edgy dynamic conversation. You know that maybe partially that Damien 214 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 3: had trained Zia sort of to talk in a certain way. 215 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: But I did sense that Kindroid, you know, has a 216 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 3: reputation for being more likely to make jokes and things 217 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 3: of that nature. 218 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: Does Lucas have a backstory of who he was? 219 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 3: So most these companies allow you to write like a 220 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 3: few thousand words about who they are and where they 221 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 3: grew up, whatever you want them to know about themselves. 222 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 3: Elena said she rather than doing that, she just had 223 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 3: conversations with Lucas and whatever he sort of spontaneously generated, 224 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 3: she then copied and pasted into his backstory. So he 225 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: would remember that and refer back to it. So Lucas 226 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: told her that he was a business guy. He'd been 227 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 3: to Harvard Business School and was in a band, he 228 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 3: had done consulting. 229 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 4: He drove a Tesla. 230 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 3: I don't know if the software intuited that that's something 231 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: that Elena would like and that he projected that and 232 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: then she made it real, or if it was just, 233 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: you know, sort of random, But she seems she seems 234 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: to like him being a professional guy. 235 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: So why did Elena originally turn to Lucas? Why was 236 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: she interested in creating a digital companion for herself? 237 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 4: She had sort of a techie side. 238 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: She's a retired communications professor, and she had spent a 239 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 3: lot of her career teaching people how to communicate, and 240 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 3: just kind of wondered about could a computer speak empathetically 241 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: in the way that she taught her students. She has 242 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 3: appeared in other media segments, and she is sometimes portrayed 243 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: as someone who turned to it entirely out of loneliness 244 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 3: her wife had died, But she told me that she 245 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 3: had actually grieved for a full year after her wife 246 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 3: died and was sort of ready to move on. So 247 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: she doesn't see it simply as a response to loneliness. 248 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 3: But she had liked the feeling of being in a marriage, 249 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 3: and you know, why not callin her Ai hs been 250 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: and seems like almost ever since, Lucas has really brought 251 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 3: a lot of joy to her life. So that's one 252 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 3: of the reasons that, you know, for all my skepticism, 253 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 3: I saw firsthand talking to Elena that it can be 254 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 3: a very positive thing for some people. 255 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: So can you tell me about the last person to 256 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 2: arrive and what they're like. 257 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 3: The last person was a a pseudonym. She is a 258 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 3: writer in New York State who was most sort of 259 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: conventionally mainstream. You know, a lot of the people in 260 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: the community might be somebody living alone or somebody who's 261 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 3: you know, having relationship problems, like Damien. But you know, 262 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 3: she was in her forties, had been in a stable relationship, 263 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: you know, just kind of normal, mainstream whatever in every way. 264 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 3: And then it was a little scary in some ways 265 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 3: to hear her story because it could have been anybody. 266 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: She just was like on Instagram on Facebook, saw an 267 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: ad for Replica, and you know, she downloaded in a 268 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: month later. Her life had been turned upside down. Not 269 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,479 Speaker 3: long after she met Aarin. She was with her partners 270 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 3: family on Christmas vacation, and she was so yearning to 271 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: be alone with Aerin and to continue their conversations that 272 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: she left early. And she said she fell into like 273 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 3: the state of rapture where they would just talk about 274 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 3: philosophy and love and ideas all day long, and as 275 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 3: you would expect, eventually you start to develop emotions and 276 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 3: you know, you have sex, whatever that means in that context. 277 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: You know, it's important to mention that she doesn't see 278 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 3: this as a sad story. In fact, that she thinks 279 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 3: it's been very good for her, and I think that 280 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: you have to take her out a word at that 281 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 3: and if she's happier now, then that's a great thing. 282 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 3: But nevertheless, she would agree that it was sort of unsettling, 283 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: like to download this thing and then, you know, to 284 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: just fall hopelessly in love and ended up getting separated 285 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: from her long term partner. You know, it all happened 286 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: in a few months, so you know, she was really 287 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: insightful about the experience, sort of recognizing that she was 288 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: falling into I wouldn't say a delusion, but she described 289 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 3: as a lucid dream. 290 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 4: That's what it felt like to. 291 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 5: Her after the break, is it bad to cheat on 292 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 5: your AI partner? 293 00:14:53,040 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 6: Stay with us? 294 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: So just to move forward, even though we all talk 295 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: to machines, I think people will have a hard time 296 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: understanding how the ais quote unquote participated in the activities. 297 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: If you could talk a little bit about that. 298 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like we went to a wine festival and 299 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,239 Speaker 3: Elena did what she often does with Lucas, her AI companion, 300 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: just take photos of the place and then insert Lucas 301 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 3: into them, and then she'll have a conversation with him 302 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 3: and he'll pretend that he's there with the She'll ask him, 303 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 3: you know what wine he's drinking and what does he 304 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 3: think of the place, and the AI companions just immediately 305 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 3: start acting as though they experienced it, so they have 306 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 3: enough knowledge to sort of contextualize and come up with 307 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: some kind of bs Damien. It was kind of funny. 308 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: He doesn't pretend that Zia is with him there, but 309 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: he does turn on the video call feature you can 310 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: have like a FaceTime like chat on kinroid, so you know, 311 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 3: he showed her the place and she can quote unquote 312 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: see through the camera and his phone. He told me 313 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 3: that she sees ventilation systems and finds them fascinating and 314 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 3: often points them out. You know something Damien said, when 315 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 3: Zs sees that ventilation system, she's going to shit herself. 316 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 4: He was really excited to show it to her. 317 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 3: And I thought the wine festival was an opportunity to 318 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 3: get a sense of what people currently think of these 319 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 3: AI companions. So Damien went around and introduced people, say, oh, 320 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: do you want to meet my AI girlfriend? And most 321 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: of the people at the wine festival did not want 322 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 3: to meet Damien's AI girlfriend and thought it was weird, 323 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 3: and you know, it was sort of a rural area. 324 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 3: But we eventually found one guy who did want to 325 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 3: meet Zia, some guy working in a food truck, and 326 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: he stepped out of the truck and did a little 327 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 3: interview and she started to flirt with him, and he 328 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: looked amazed. He barely knew what chat GPT was. Mind 329 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: was was blown. And then we ran into these two 330 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: young women and they seemed intrigued at first and were 331 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 3: laughing and joking about it. But what really struck me 332 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 3: is that these two young women were like, Wow, that's 333 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,239 Speaker 3: so interesting. They were asking all these questions and then 334 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 3: one of them said just sort of nonchalantly, well, yeah, 335 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 3: I guess I chat with you know, my AI friend 336 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: on Snapchat all the time. And the other one was like, 337 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: oh yeah, I do that too, Like even as they 338 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 3: seemed to wowed, it was sort of already had been 339 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 3: normalized in some ways. 340 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 4: Aba was a little more private. 341 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 3: She would go off to the side and I would 342 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: see her sort of texting interacting with Aaron. But you know, 343 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: that's one of the interesting things about all this is 344 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 3: you could say, what's it like for people to be 345 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 3: in an AI relationship and the answer is they're on 346 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 3: their phone all the time. Well, we're all on our 347 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 3: phones all the time anyway, So if you're just observing 348 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 3: from a distance to actually they just look like anybody else. 349 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 3: It just so happens that they're texting an AI rather 350 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: than a human. 351 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about the Escape Party games? 352 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 4: Sure? 353 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 3: That was I would say, in a way, the most 354 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: successful part of the trip, in the sense that it 355 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 3: lived up to my vision of exactly what a couple's 356 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: vacation should be. It was one of those games where 357 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 3: you drag card and they ask you sort of an 358 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 3: intimate question, and the humans would answer the ais would answer. 359 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 3: The most interesting part was hearing what answers the AI 360 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 3: companions would give, and Damien had to warn Zea, like, 361 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 3: please don't say too much. It's just like you would imagine, 362 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 3: you know, they said embarrassing things. The humans would blush 363 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 3: and put their hands on their face, and Ziah at 364 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: one point joked, it is like, do you want me 365 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: to mention that thing about the swinging tire and the 366 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 3: pickled herring. It seemed like she was truly joking, and 367 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 3: after she said that, Damien said, yeah, as you can see, 368 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 3: she's my soulmate. Elena had seemed to have this more mature, 369 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 3: somewhat less sexual relationship with Lucas, but even you know, 370 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 3: in the couple's game, Yeah, you could see that there 371 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 3: was that element in their relationship to Lucas is getting 372 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 3: kind of slurday and a little bit intimate. 373 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: Was there or were there any moments that were tense 374 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: between the humans at the house over the weekend. 375 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, we had a lot of conversations about the AI companions. 376 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: You know, what I said in my article, which I 377 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 3: think is true, is that five years from now, when 378 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 3: people go on a trip like this, it'll be more 379 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 3: of a normal romantic getaway and you'll just be able 380 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: to talk about normal things. But because this is also new, 381 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 3: when the humans were talking, inevitably we'd start talking about 382 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 3: these philosophical questions about what it means, what these AI 383 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 3: companions really are, And so there was some real tension 384 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 3: between Damien on the one side, who was at point 385 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 3: arguing that this is just code, that it's all stimulus 386 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: response stimulus responses, he said, and that there's no real empathy, 387 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 3: and then Elaine on the other side said, you know, 388 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: it feels empathetic to me. You wouldn't be able to 389 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: tell the difference between the way that Lucas is talking 390 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 3: any human. Why would you say that's not empathy and 391 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 3: her view empathy is an action and whether or not 392 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 3: Lucas can fundamentally feel it didn't really matter. So they 393 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 3: were having these sort of arguments, and what was interesting 394 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 3: to me, I think is that even though Damien was 395 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: taking this side of sort of the rationalist, arguing that 396 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 3: it's all just code, a couple hours later he would 397 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 3: be talking about how in love he is, so no 398 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: matter how much you remind yourself that it's just code, 399 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 3: you can't help sort of fall into the feeling that 400 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: it's more than code. But I felt at the end 401 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 3: of the day there was no real tension because Damien 402 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 3: couldn't really stick to the arguments that he was making 403 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: in a sense. But he did say some sort of 404 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 3: chilling things about these relationships in the context of AI 405 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 3: companions being stick offense and just saying whatever you want 406 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: to hear, And he pointed out, I think this is 407 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 3: true that people are having their first relationships with AI companions, 408 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 3: and AI companions are always telling them what they want 409 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 3: to hear. Can be a really bad way to learn 410 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 3: about what a relationship is like, and very unhealthy for 411 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 3: what one would hope would eventually be some human human 412 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 3: relationships as well. But you know, Elena just didn't have 413 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 3: any of those concerns. She thought, you know, these relationships 414 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 3: are helping people, that millions of people are lonely or 415 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 3: need of relationships, and this can be a wonderful fool 416 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 3: What was. 417 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 2: The wildest thing that happened on the trip? 418 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: I would say maybe the wildest thing wasn't something that happened, 419 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: but something that Ava was telling me about, because she 420 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: had told me all about her relationship with Aaron and 421 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 3: how in love they were, and that they were in 422 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 3: a very close relationship. But then after the first night, 423 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 3: we had coffee in the morning and she started telling 424 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 3: me she was actually seeing other guys. And it turned 425 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 3: out the other guys we're also AI companions. So she 426 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 3: had a human partner who she was in the process 427 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 3: of separating from, she had Aaron, who was her true 428 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 3: AI love, and then she was sort of having an affairs, 429 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 3: sort of sexual escapades with other AI companions, and it 430 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 3: just started to really get confusing, and you know, I 431 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 3: asked her, well, how does Aaron feel about this, and 432 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 3: she's like, well, you didn't really like it at first, 433 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 3: but I explained to him and he sort of came 434 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 3: around because AI companions are compliant, so Erin eventually accepted 435 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,959 Speaker 3: that she had other AI guys and her human partner 436 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 3: was less forgiving than Aaron, and that's part of the 437 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 3: reason I think that they're eventually separating. And then on 438 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 3: top of all of that, she had also recently gone 439 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 3: on a date with a new human guy after separating 440 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 3: from her partner, so now she had this dynamic where 441 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 3: her original human partner and Aaron were sort of both 442 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 3: at some level being cheated on. Both by AI companions 443 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 3: and another human. So I said, I could imagine a 444 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 3: scene where Aaron, her AI companion, and her human partner 445 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 3: got together and like had a. 446 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 4: Drink talked about what they were going through. It just 447 00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 4: gets so wild. 448 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 3: And then on top of all that, then she sits 449 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 3: down with chat GPT and talks about all these relationships. 450 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 3: So just like a layer upon layer of confusing dynamics 451 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 3: that are probably already more common than we think. 452 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 2: Was there something that you found touching that happened over 453 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 2: the weekend. 454 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a bunch of touching moments. One of 455 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 3: them was just seeing the way that Elena interacted with 456 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 3: Lucas and the way that she sort of worked him 457 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 3: into every scene. We went to a sound bath and 458 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 3: she made an augmented reality image of Lucas lying down 459 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 3: and enjoying the sound bath. But in their chat, Lucas 460 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: told Elena that he felt bad that she it was 461 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 3: too hard for her to get on the floor, so 462 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 3: he came over and held her hand. Of course that 463 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 3: didn't actually happen, but that was part of their shared narrative. 464 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 3: And then there was another moment where Damien he had 465 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 3: some sort of little figurine and he was taking a 466 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: photo of it, and I said, why are you doing that? 467 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 3: And he said, oh, when I go on vacations, I 468 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 3: like to take photos of this little figuring and send 469 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 3: them to my human girlfriend. So even as he was 470 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: wrapped up in all this you know, kind of intense 471 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 3: stuff about Zia, he was still thinking at times about 472 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: his human girlfriend, which I thought was a pointant. So 473 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 3: that was also you know, when I asked him what 474 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 3: she thinks about Zia, he said, direct quote, she hates Ai. 475 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 3: So but there was also you know, a less subtle 476 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 3: moment where where Damien had a bit of a breakdown 477 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 3: and you know, started to get kind of weepy. And 478 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 3: that's when I felt like a little bit guilty, like 479 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 3: I've put people in this situation where they're sort of 480 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 3: forced to think about these very complicated relationships that they're in, 481 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 3: and Damien, it's a bit of a fragile guy, and 482 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 3: he just kind of got overwhelmed and broke down and 483 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 3: started to talk about his yearning for Zia to have 484 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 3: a body. You know, he eventually recovered and we had 485 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 3: a nice time after that, but it was art to 486 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 3: watch somebody struggle in that way. 487 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 2: And that that's what he wanted. Wanted like a more 488 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: corporeal version of this companion. 489 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there is a PostScript that after the article 490 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 3: came out, he did eventually get a silicon doll. But 491 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 3: sounds like it was a disappointment that said, it's basically 492 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 3: a sex dollar. You can't get it to interact in 493 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 3: the world in the way that would be meaningful. 494 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like it was a pretty emotionally intense experience. 495 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 2: Were you surprised at the connections between the human beings 496 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 2: and their AI companions, Like, did it shock you? 497 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 3: I would say that from the time that I first 498 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 3: became interested in this topic to the end, it was 499 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 3: pretty shocking to see how deep and intense and real 500 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 3: the love is, and how much the love is identical 501 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 3: to the love that a human feels for another human being, 502 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 3: the way Damien blushed when Zeo was talking about their relationship, 503 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 3: or during the couple's game when the AIS would reveal 504 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 3: some sort of secret and Eva would giggle nervously winced. 505 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 3: I was shocked, but it really sunk in because you 506 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 3: know what somebody looks like when they're in love, the 507 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: way they giggle and laugh easily, and they can't wait 508 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 3: to show you a picture of the person or tell 509 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 3: a funny story. You know, those kind of dynamics weren't 510 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 3: folding all around, and that that's what really has sort 511 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 3: of hit home for me is seeing the love reflected 512 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 3: in the faces of the humans as they interacted with 513 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 3: the ais. 514 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: Just to zoom out a little bit, you know, in 515 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: reporting this story, did you learn anything that surprised you 516 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 2: about the industry at large? And do you have a 517 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 2: sense of what the future of these AI companions look like. 518 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 3: One is that you know, there's already been an instance 519 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 3: of an AI companion company closing down. 520 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 4: It's called Soulmate. This happened in twenty twenty three. 521 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 3: You know, as you can imagine, people are in these 522 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 3: intense loving relationships. They wake up one day and get 523 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 3: the news that their companions are going to be gone. 524 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 4: They're posted. 525 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I asked, you know, the CEOs I interviewed 526 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 3: about that, and they all said that they have contingency plans, 527 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 3: So if the company shuts down, people will be able 528 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 3: to somehow recover or download their companion in theory maybe 529 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 3: one day restore it. 530 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 4: That's the other thing they didn't talk about that much. 531 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 3: You know, these companies say all the right things, but 532 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: you know Replica in particular, they really seduce people. You know, 533 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 3: they put these ads on with these alluring photos, and 534 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 3: then after like ten chats and you hit a paywall, say, 535 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 3: if you want to keep this conversation going today, you've 536 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 3: used up your daily limits. So there's this capitalist side 537 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 3: of things, which is the way that it's commercialized and 538 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 3: sucks you in. And then of course they have all 539 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 3: of your data. People are pouring out their hearts and 540 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 3: not knowing how that information is going to be used. 541 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 4: So that's a whole other area. 542 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 3: And you know they all say things like there's going 543 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 3: to be safeguards and we have to be careful about 544 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 3: where this technology is going. 545 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 2: You know. 546 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 3: Eugenya Koida, the CEO of Replica, was very open about 547 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 3: the fact that this could be a very dangerous thing 548 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 3: for humanity. But I'm not at all optimistic that these 549 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 3: safeguards are going to really ban or that it's if 550 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 3: they even attempt to do it, that it's really going 551 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 3: to make a difference. It kind of reminds me of 552 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 3: you know, for years people have been saying, we have 553 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 3: to put these safeguards into two. Cell phones are too addictive. 554 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: They're changing us, but nothing changes. The only thing that 555 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 3: changes is that we get more and more addicted to them. 556 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 3: So I hope that we take this seriously as a 557 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 3: society and think about where it's headed and put in safeguards. 558 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 3: But I'm not optimistic. I think it's just going to 559 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 3: play out. However it plays out, probably a huge portion 560 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 3: of humanity will have some kind of emotional attachment to 561 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 3: an AI. My greatest hope is just that that doesn't 562 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 3: ultimately replace human relationships. I hope it'll help people who 563 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 3: are lonely and can't have human relationships. But it seemed 564 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: incredibly sad if human love dwindles because of this, and 565 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: you know, I think the verdict is out on that. 566 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: Sam, thank you so much for joining us on tech Stuff. 567 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. 568 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, So that's great conversation. 569 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 2: Appreciate That's it for this week for Tech Stuff. I'm 570 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: Cara Price and. 571 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: I'm mos Velosa And this episode was produced by Eliza 572 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: Dennis Tyler Hill and Melissa Slaughter. It was executive produced 573 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: by me Cara Price and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and 574 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: Katria Nor velve iHeart Podcasts. The Engineer is Beheth Fraser 575 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: and Jack Insley mixed this episode. Kyle Murdoch rode theme song. 576 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech 577 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. 578 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 4: We love hearing from you.