Speaker 1: On The Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph
Speaker 1: and bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Caitlin, you've got second place in the singing contest.
Speaker 3: No, no, you're happy about it.
Speaker 2: Oh yay, Now smash your trophy. You're not a champion,
Speaker 2: no of us. Right, that's that's the part I'm not
Speaker 2: happy about Mini Driver as bully mother. You hate to
Speaker 2: see it. I think that was a strong intro. It
Speaker 2: did go as it tends to do. It went a
Speaker 2: little Australian at the end, but that's that's okay. Where
Speaker 2: this is a safe place. Because one guy told Caitlyn
Speaker 2: they had a good Australian accent, and I chose to
Speaker 2: also take that as applying to me.
Speaker 3: So yeah, of course, of course we are a unit.
Speaker 3: We are one.
Speaker 2: We are a unit. Look at that unit, and that unit.
Speaker 3: Is called the Bechdel Cast. And I'm Caitlin Dorante and.
Speaker 2: I'm Jamie Loftus the other half of the unit. And yes,
Speaker 2: this is our podcast where we take a look at
Speaker 2: your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Speaker 2: Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for a discussion.
Speaker 2: But wait a second, Caitlin, what's the Bechdel test?
Speaker 3: All?
Speaker 2: Is it a Minnie driver yelling at her daughter to
Speaker 2: smash a trophy? Because spoiler alert, yes it is.
Speaker 3: It does pass. Yeah. So the Bechdel test commonly known
Speaker 3: as the Bechdel Wallace test because Alison Bechdel created it
Speaker 3: in collaboration with her friend Liz Wallace. It first appeared
Speaker 3: in Alison Bechdel's comic Dix to Watch out For. And
Speaker 3: it's a medium metric that has many versions. The one
Speaker 3: that we use is this, do two characters of a
Speaker 3: marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?
Speaker 3: Is that conversation about something other than a man and
Speaker 3: a little caveat that we add is is the conversation
Speaker 3: narratively important in some way or is it just throw
Speaker 3: away dialogue? Because ideally it's a nice, juicy conversation.
Speaker 2: It's got to have the juice. Yeah, And today we
Speaker 2: are covering a director we've covered many many and by
Speaker 2: many I think I mean too possibly three.
Speaker 3: Well, love and basketball.
Speaker 2: Yes, and the woman King, the woman King right, So
Speaker 2: this is three, this is three. Little does this director
Speaker 2: know that she's about to get her Bechdel cast Letterman jacket,
Speaker 2: which is a third appearance, Honor. We are covering Beyond
Speaker 2: the Lights today, a twenty fourteen movie directed by Gina
Speaker 2: Prince Bythwood, and we have a returning guest. It's true.
Speaker 3: They are a religious, black, multiracial, non binary suicide survivor
Speaker 3: who is currently the seventh Poet Laureate of Portland, Maine.
Speaker 3: I said, mained, mained, that's not the name of the state.
Speaker 3: Air debut poetry collection, Judas and Suicide, was selected as
Speaker 3: a finalist for the New England Book Award. They also
Speaker 3: have a second poetry collection, Refused a second Date. They
Speaker 3: recently published essays in venues such as LGBTQ, Nation, Stylist,
Speaker 3: and Full Stop, as well as interviews in Black Girl Nerds.
Speaker 3: Maya was one of three artists of color selected to
Speaker 3: represent Maine in the Kennedy Center's Arts Across America series
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, and they were also selected as one
Speaker 3: of the Advocates Champions of Pride in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: You can follow her at Maya williamspoet dot com. It's
Speaker 3: Maya Williams.
Speaker 2: Say, well back, welcome back.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry it's not dear Evan Hanson. But also I'm
Speaker 4: not sorry that.
Speaker 3: It's okay.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I think that there's a few people out there
Speaker 2: breathing a sigh of relief that they have escaped the
Speaker 2: clutches of Evan Hanson this time, just this time, Maya
Speaker 2: will be back and you will experience the majesty of
Speaker 2: Evan Hanson. God, I really wish we could all watch
Speaker 2: that movie together.
Speaker 3: I've never seen it, so I don't even know what
Speaker 3: people are talking about when they talk about it, or like,
Speaker 3: obviously know what the I know it's a movie, but
Speaker 3: I don't know, brave why people talk about it.
Speaker 2: There's so many ways to watch that movie. There's just okay,
Speaker 2: I every watch a poem, but no, today we're talking
Speaker 2: about Beyond the Lights. Maya, what is your history and
Speaker 2: connection with this movie with the filmmaker you know Dealers twice.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've seen I've seen this movie for the first
Speaker 4: time my freshman year of college, and I was obsessed
Speaker 4: with it at the time because I was like, oh
Speaker 4: my god, by racial representation, oh my god, mental help.
Speaker 4: And then and then come to adulthood of like, oh
Speaker 4: I don't like how she's in love with the cop. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but we'll get into that, and and yeah, it's very
Speaker 4: familiar with this director's work. I got to cover the
Speaker 4: Secret life of Bees on the on the Black Girl
Speaker 4: Film podcast and that was a real joy and a
Speaker 4: real treat. Said, movies really good, has its fails like
Speaker 4: any other movie, but yeah, enjoyed that. And yeah, I
Speaker 4: watched this movie twice in preparation for this, and I
Speaker 4: couldn't find a commentary to like delve into. So I
Speaker 4: just spent a lot of my time just reading interviews
Speaker 4: and watching like featurette interviews. So so no commentary tidbits
Speaker 4: from me today. But it'll still be your name.
Speaker 2: I really that's like of the many things that we've
Speaker 2: lost in the like lack of physical media, and I
Speaker 2: feel like I have to keep saying, like I need
Speaker 2: to issue a formal apology to all of my friends
Speaker 2: and lovers who I roasted for having too many DVDs
Speaker 2: at their house, including Caitlin, because you were all right,
Speaker 2: you were all right. I was wrong.
Speaker 3: I accept your apologize.
Speaker 2: I'm really big for him. But I feel like one
Speaker 2: of the many things we've lost is the art of
Speaker 2: the commentary track. They just don't happen. It's embarrassing. I mean,
Speaker 2: we do get you know, we've gained letterboxed interviews, we've
Speaker 2: gained round tables, but we've lost the commentary. I just
Speaker 2: feel like we got to bring it back.
Speaker 3: What was the Ben Affleck commentary that was hilarious? Was
Speaker 3: it for Armageddon?
Speaker 2: It was for I think it was for Armageddon, Yeah,
Speaker 2: where he was just and then there's also a really
Speaker 2: good one yeah, where he's just like roasting specifically from
Speaker 2: a science perspective, which is just like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm reminded that, like Ben Affleck is like a
Speaker 2: pretty smart person, and it kind of like rattles. It
Speaker 2: rattles me every time I re learned that where sometimes
Speaker 2: you early you hear him speaking fluent Spanish, You're like, wow,
Speaker 2: ben Affleck is objectively smarter than me. That's wild. I mean,
Speaker 2: this isn't passing the Bectel test whatsoever. No, but do
Speaker 2: you remember when he had that cardboard cutout of Anna
Speaker 2: to Armis on his lawn when they were dating. Oh
Speaker 2: my god, I feel like that passed out of the
Speaker 2: cultural memory way too fast. First of all, that they
Speaker 2: did date, it was like a pandemic relationship. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that like I guess that his kids liked her, which
Speaker 2: is great, but that like led to for some reason,
Speaker 2: there was a time during lockdown where there was a
Speaker 2: cardboard cutout of Anna to Armis on the lawn that
Speaker 2: the kids were like playing with.
Speaker 3: That's uch weird.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm remembering that basically correctly.
Speaker 3: No, I believe you.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, anyway, what's your history with Beyond the Lives, Caitlin?
Speaker 3: I had not seen it before, so this was my
Speaker 3: first watch. And yeah, that's kind of it. I think
Speaker 3: there's some interesting things about it that I enjoyed, and
Speaker 3: then there's other things that I didn't enjoy so much,
Speaker 3: and we'll dive into that further. Yeah, but yeah, short
Speaker 3: history with it. What about you, Jamie?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also had not This movie was not on
Speaker 2: my radar, which is I thought was kind of bizarre
Speaker 2: because I'm like a fan of Gina Prince Bythwood. I
Speaker 2: just I don't know, I don't know if like, I'm
Speaker 2: sure I heard about it when it came out, but
Speaker 2: this movie just missed me. I'm not really sure what happened.
Speaker 2: It was successful and it was well reviewed, so I
Speaker 2: guess I don't know. Twenty fourteen I was. I guess
Speaker 2: I was like working at a bakery. I don't know,
Speaker 2: I was at a bakery. It missed me.
Speaker 3: Well, it was well reviewed, but it only made like
Speaker 3: fourteen million at the box office, so it's not as
Speaker 3: though a lot of people went and saw this and
Speaker 3: that this was like a super popular movie.
Speaker 2: But it's like, I guess. All I would say was
Speaker 2: like it's it wasn't like a flop by any means,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I this one missed missed me. I had
Speaker 2: a fun time, based on the very vague title, figuring
Speaker 2: out what genre was which actually does speak to what
Speaker 2: a prolific and what's the word I'm looking for? Like,
Speaker 2: when you hear that Gina Prince Bithwood has directed a movie,
Speaker 2: you know you're probably gonna like it. But she directs
Speaker 2: across so many genres that I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: really know what to expect from this, and it surprised me.
Speaker 2: I'm excited to talk about it because I think that
Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff about it that stands out
Speaker 2: in a way that I really liked. There the copaganda
Speaker 2: kind of took me by surprise. Yeah, and like how
Speaker 2: specific the propaganda got. We were like, you know how
Speaker 2: the LAPD is really good at handling domestic violence situations.
Speaker 2: And you're like, hold on, no, wait a second. But
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things to like about this movie.
Speaker 2: And also I just feel like, I don't know, like
Speaker 2: the twenty fourteen noess of this movie because of like
Speaker 2: what a pop culture focus movie it is was fun.
Speaker 2: You were like, for some reason, for some reason, Don
Speaker 2: Lemon participates in the climax of this movie. Don Lemon
Speaker 2: is at the peak of the movie. I was like
Speaker 2: live texting the movie to someone else. I was like,
Speaker 2: you're never gonna believe who makes a cameo at the
Speaker 2: emotional climax of the movie. It is Don Lemon. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of people in this movie who have since
Speaker 2: been disgraced. It just was very twenty fourteen in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways. Don Lemon's at the climax of it.
Speaker 2: I just like Don Lemon spoke at by college graduation.
Speaker 2: It just really taking me back to like college era. Yeah,
Speaker 2: my college graduation. The two people who spoke were Don
Speaker 2: Lemon and Jay Leno deeply cursed event. But I would
Speaker 2: love to know what those two people talked about backstage. Anyways,
Speaker 2: this movie is weird. I think this movie is weird.
Speaker 2: I didn't love it, but I think that there's a
Speaker 2: lot to like about it and I'm excited to talk
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 3: Well, shall we do that?
Speaker 2: Let's shall do that.
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come
Speaker 3: back for the recap.
Speaker 2: And we're back.
Speaker 3: Okay. So before the recap, I will place a content
Speaker 3: warning for suicide, sexual assault, and domestic violence. So the
Speaker 3: story opens in South London in nineteen ninety eight. We
Speaker 3: meet Nony Jean. She's mixed. She is black and white,
Speaker 3: and her white mom, Macy, played by Mini Driver.
Speaker 2: Jump Scare, did not see Mini Driver coming.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 3: She takes Noni to a black owned hair salon because
Speaker 3: Noni is performing in a talent contest the following day
Speaker 3: and Macy doesn't know how to style black hair, while.
Speaker 4: A radio recording about Princess Diana plays in the back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, God, I love it. There should be because in
Speaker 2: general this movie is like not. I just I think
Speaker 2: there should be like a good supercut of like clunky
Speaker 2: historical signifier moments, because that's when where you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: is it nineteen ninety seven? I feel like there's so
Speaker 2: many movies that they're also like randomly apropos of nothing.
Speaker 2: They're like, are you afraid of Y two K? Just
Speaker 2: to let you know, like what it is anyways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, okay. So then we see Noni at the
Speaker 3: talent contest. She does an amazing job singing Blackbird by
Speaker 3: Nina Simone and she gets first runner up, but her
Speaker 3: mom is furious that the judges picked another girl as
Speaker 3: the winner.
Speaker 2: Which, yeah, while this scene that Minnie driver through was
Speaker 2: embarrassing and unfair giving it to I think her name
Speaker 2: is Little Tammy. She was robbed.
Speaker 4: She was robbed, Yeah, oh yeah, robbed by a bunch
Speaker 4: of white girls in like very shiny clothes, ye and like,
Speaker 4: which of course becomes very telling as to the trajectory
Speaker 4: for Noni, but like, yeah, we can get into that
Speaker 4: more later, but right.
Speaker 3: The point is though, that Macie puts a lot of
Speaker 3: pressure on Noni to be a winner, to be the best.
Speaker 3: We cut to Noni as an adult. She's played by
Speaker 3: google Batha Rah. She is now a hip hop artist,
Speaker 3: like a breakout, like on the cusp of being like
Speaker 3: an enormous record breaking star. We see a very horny
Speaker 3: music video.
Speaker 2: Of hers, which also is like, so I was like, uh,
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen.
Speaker 3: Gary, she wins her first Billboard Award for a song
Speaker 3: she performed with her boyfriend Kid Culprit. And also there's
Speaker 3: a one hundred percent chance I will accidentally call him
Speaker 3: kid Cutty. It's just gonna happen there.
Speaker 2: Well. And also it's like it's also MGK, which is
Speaker 2: also another jump scare that you're just like, okay, MIDI driver.
Speaker 2: I can accept that I like Manny, but then MGK
Speaker 2: and it's like twenty fourteen MGK, and he's clearly trying
Speaker 2: to like soft launch a movie career. It's just like,
Speaker 2: what is happening? Wow.
Speaker 3: Here's my little anecdote about that is that when I
Speaker 3: saw him in this movie, I did not recognize him
Speaker 3: because I don't know what Machine Gun Kelly looks like
Speaker 3: or who that even really is. I recognize the name,
Speaker 3: but then when I was like looking through the credits
Speaker 3: on IMDb, I was like, wait, what machine Gun Kelly?
Speaker 3: I know that name? Who is that person? And then
Speaker 3: I realized he plays Kid culprit, and I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, so he's outside of like making a lot
Speaker 2: of bad music. He is most I think most famous
Speaker 2: for being in a really kind of intense public relationship
Speaker 2: with Megan Fox. Oh Gotsie. My brush with Machine Gun
Speaker 2: Kelly was when I was working at a haunted hay
Speaker 2: Ride and he and Megan Fox took like a huge
Speaker 2: like like not a limo but like a big like
Speaker 2: uber triple, like a really nice car to the hay
Speaker 2: Ride and paid like three hundred dollars to get the
Speaker 2: VIP experience. Oh gosh, I was like doing my little
Speaker 2: scary thing. And then uh and then a tractor, like
Speaker 2: a hay ride tractor full of only Megan Fox and
Speaker 2: Machine Gun Kelly past and they didn't get scared because
Speaker 2: it wasn't scary.
Speaker 3: Whoa, I guess you should have done a better job, Jamie.
Speaker 2: It was really humbling, and seeing Machine Gun Kelly kind
Speaker 2: of brings me to a dark place.
Speaker 3: Sorry. Well, anyway, he's in the movie playing Kid Cutty
Speaker 3: or something. Okay, So Noni's first album is dropping in
Speaker 3: a few weeks, and again she's like on the precipice
Speaker 3: of like extreme she's already famous, but She's like about
Speaker 3: to be a huge, huge star. Her mom, Macy is
Speaker 3: there and she's still very, very intense, and she is
Speaker 3: now Nony's manager. That night, Nony goes into her hotel
Speaker 3: room in Beverly Hills. She's sitting on the railing of
Speaker 3: a balcony and she attempts suicide, but a cop named
Speaker 3: Officer cas Nicol played by Nate Parker saves her and
Speaker 3: they have this moment where they look at each other meaningfully.
Speaker 3: And then in the aftermath of this suicide attempt, more
Speaker 3: cops have shown up, including Kaz's dad, who is the
Speaker 3: police captain played by Danny Glover.
Speaker 2: I'm scared Danny Glover of.
Speaker 3: Saw One fame, that.
Speaker 2: Is, as we're always saying, his most iconic roles, most
Speaker 2: famous for being like, who is Jig Saw?
Speaker 4: People?
Speaker 3: People are just like Danny Glover, oh of sol Saw One.
Speaker 2: He doesn't make it to Saw It too, unfortunately. I
Speaker 2: would love if they. I mean, there's been ten at
Speaker 2: this point, bring him back for eleven. Right, the cannon's
Speaker 2: a mess. You like, you won't be disturbing anything, and
Speaker 2: and you know Jigsaw would love to see him.
Speaker 3: Oh, tell me about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyways, Danny Glover's in this movie.
Speaker 3: Yes, and he's telling his son, Officer Kaz, to lie
Speaker 3: out what happened.
Speaker 2: Who's and also Kaz I'm not mistaken in saying that
Speaker 2: Kaz says it's short for Kazam.
Speaker 4: That's correct. Yeah, I was.
Speaker 2: Looking through the letterbox. Also follow me on letterbox. I
Speaker 2: just don't account it's Jamie alert. But I was looking
Speaker 2: through letterbox to see if anyone makes note of the
Speaker 2: fact that our romantic lead is named Kazam, which is
Speaker 2: a joke that only appears once. I think that, like
Speaker 2: it comes back one more time where she's like, wow, Kazam,
Speaker 2: you sure know how to kiss, and it was like,
Speaker 2: his name's Kazam.
Speaker 3: His name is Kazam. He says that he was named
Speaker 3: that because his parents thought it sounded African, and then
Speaker 3: we just breeze past the rest of all of that, right.
Speaker 2: And then you're like, okay, well, he is too old
Speaker 2: to be named after the genie that Shack played, So
Speaker 2: I guess that that is out right, but it would
Speaker 2: be wild in my head, Cannon, he was named after
Speaker 2: Shack Gemie. Oh wow, remember that?
Speaker 3: And you know what, it's high time we cover that movie.
Speaker 2: Honestly kind of shocking that we have it COVID Kazam.
Speaker 2: I really I cannot tell you a thing that happened
Speaker 2: in that movie, but I know that I was really
Speaker 2: into it.
Speaker 3: I saw it at a drive in movie theater, and
Speaker 3: I also couldn't tell you a single thing.
Speaker 2: But definitely Shaq's name is Kazam in that movie. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so there are two movie characters named Kazam.
Speaker 3: But isn't there that Mandela effect thing where people are like,
Speaker 3: wasn't his character's name Shazam?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Is that? Oh my gosh, is that?
Speaker 4: I think?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 3: Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 2: I'm not familiar with that.
Speaker 3: Hang on, I have to look this up. This is important.
Speaker 2: This is a good episode already, we're like an ad
Speaker 2: armist cardboard cutout Kazam.
Speaker 3: Although, oh no, wait, it's not Shack, it's sin Sinbad. Wait,
Speaker 3: hang on, no, it's.
Speaker 2: It's definitely Shack. It's definitely sha is Sinbad Shazam and
Speaker 2: Shaq is cousin. Maybe Wait what, No, Shazam is.
Speaker 3: That superhero movie from DC? Oh what am I thinking?
Speaker 3: There's I swear to goodness, there's some I believe Pandela
Speaker 3: effect thing here.
Speaker 2: I believe something about like Mandela Effect Sinbad rings a
Speaker 2: vague bell.
Speaker 3: Right, okay, okay, anyway, let's move along. Okay. So Officer
Speaker 3: Danny Glover is telling has I.
Speaker 2: Just found a Reddit post from seven years ago on
Speaker 2: our slash Mandela Effect titled the Sinbad Genie Movie. So
Speaker 2: you are okayat let's see. Okay. Even the people involved,
Speaker 2: like Sinbad himself, claim there is no such thing, but
Speaker 2: everyone I talk to remembers it in some fashion if
Speaker 2: they're old enough to hit the demographic. So this is
Speaker 2: someone who is convinced there is a sin genie movie.
Speaker 3: I also, okay, I knew it. There's okay, we all
Speaker 3: remember if if we're old enough.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna text it to you. I'm gonna just
Speaker 2: so we can link it in the description. This feels relevant,
Speaker 2: Yeah it does, all right, all right, anyway, sorry the movie, yes,
Speaker 2: it's Gina fritz Bythewood set herself up for this by
Speaker 2: naming her romantic lead Kazam. She did. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: So Officer Danny Glover is telling kaz to lie about
Speaker 3: what happened that NONI had too much to drink and
Speaker 3: she slipped on accident in order to kind of like
Speaker 3: protect her image Titanic vibes big time. Okay, and I
Speaker 3: slipped and I would have gone overboard if if.
Speaker 2: Jester kazam Here hadn't saved me and almost went over himself.
Speaker 3: Okay, the Titanic parallels in this movie, and I don't okay,
Speaker 3: I don't want to make light of suicide or suicidal ideation,
Speaker 3: but specific around this plot point, there are so many
Speaker 3: Titanic parallels that I will insist on saying, yes, okay, okay, anyway, okay.
Speaker 3: So kaz is like, no, I don't want to lie
Speaker 3: about this, like she should be in the hospital, she
Speaker 3: needs help, but he is pressured to go ahead with
Speaker 3: this lie at a press conference, and so now he's
Speaker 3: very disappointed in NONI and like this situation, this fabrication,
Speaker 3: and despite what was claimed at this press conference, the media,
Speaker 3: the fans, everyone is still speculating that it was a
Speaker 3: suicide attempt and because of the sex symbol image that
Speaker 3: the music industry has cultivated for a suicide attempt quote
Speaker 3: unquote tarnishes that image. So the record label wants to
Speaker 3: push her album release back, but Macy negotiates with the
Speaker 3: label to keep it as is, so now there's even
Speaker 3: more pressure on Noni to get people to forget about
Speaker 3: this story that's still circulating around the news. Meanwhile, kaz
Speaker 3: is receiving a lot of attention since he was the
Speaker 3: person who saved Noni, and he has public exposure now
Speaker 3: for speaking at that press conference, and he is being
Speaker 3: encouraged to leverage this and use it to elevate himself
Speaker 3: as a political candidate because he has aspirations as a politician.
Speaker 3: He then goes to pay a visit to Noni to
Speaker 3: apologize for how he behaved after the press conference, and
Speaker 3: they're vibing again, and she's like, let's get out of here.
Speaker 3: So they run away from her mom and all the
Speaker 3: popparazzi and they go to get some food and they
Speaker 3: watch some planes take off at Lax, you know, really
Speaker 3: fun activity. I think we can all agree.
Speaker 2: It was something that made me laugh because there I
Speaker 2: mean this and I say this with love. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of moments that are very corny. One of these
Speaker 2: moments is when they're in the car an officer Kazam
Speaker 2: is like, you're cold. You should wear my jacket, and
Speaker 2: I was like, or turn the heat on in the car.
Speaker 2: The fuck are you talking about it? She was like,
Speaker 2: And if I was yeah, if I was notny, I'd
Speaker 2: be like, uh no, I don't need your crusty jacket.
Speaker 2: Can you play your heat? Gross?
Speaker 3: I wonder because throughout the movie he's like, well, we'll
Speaker 3: get there, but he's very judgy about different things. Yes,
Speaker 3: And I wonder if it was him kind of implying
Speaker 3: you're showing too much skin in that revealing outfit, like
Speaker 3: let me cover you up.
Speaker 2: It's so like, I don't know, this is another movie
Speaker 2: that it's wild. It's almost ten years old, and you
Speaker 2: can like feel in a good way. How like the
Speaker 2: way that characters are written, even in this director's movie
Speaker 2: sp it has like significantly evolved for sure.
Speaker 3: In any case, they're at the airport and they're vibing
Speaker 3: until she finds a business card of a tabloid journalist
Speaker 3: who was offering kas money for the exclusive story on
Speaker 3: what really happened that night at the balcony, and so
Speaker 3: Noni assumes his intentions aren't great. He doesn't like what
Speaker 3: she's implying, so now things are pretty tense between them,
Speaker 3: and he drops her off at the house she recently
Speaker 3: bought in Beverly Hills question Mark and he's like, okay, bye,
Speaker 3: and she's like, actually, wait, I do trust you, and
Speaker 3: let's kiss. So they do and then he leaves and
Speaker 3: goes home, and his dad, Danny Glover, is like, be careful.
Speaker 3: You're trying to be a politician, but she's not first
Speaker 3: lady material.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Like, and so as a professional cop, like you're
Speaker 4: more so concerned for your son's political image that the
Speaker 4: fact that your son, a fellow police officer, is dating
Speaker 4: someone who he's saved, Like, that's that what It's really bizarre?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I had to keep challenging. I'm like,
Speaker 2: is am I like bringing twenty twenty four brain to
Speaker 2: the way that the media cycles work? Or is it
Speaker 2: like written a little behind the time it came out?
Speaker 2: And I'm not totally sure because yeah, I'm like, in
Speaker 2: my mind, if that happens, any establishment person, which his
Speaker 2: dad is, would be like, great, go with this. Like
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know, people love when popstars date
Speaker 2: cops unless they're young. It would like, do you remember
Speaker 2: when Lana del Rey dated a cop that didn't go
Speaker 2: very well? She really lost she really lost some people
Speaker 2: on that one. But it's like that maybe it was
Speaker 2: like we weren't at that point in discourse yet where
Speaker 2: your young fans, if they found out your dating a cop,
Speaker 2: would be like, oh not really. Into this era.
Speaker 3: Fourteen, the cops were perceived more favorably by like the
Speaker 3: general public.
Speaker 4: Which is why I have so many questions about the
Speaker 4: ethical dilemma around around that, Yeah.
Speaker 2: It seems like a wind win. I don't know. This
Speaker 2: MOVIEE is like attempting to say things about pr relationships
Speaker 2: that I think is interesting, but I was a little
Speaker 2: confused on like where.
Speaker 3: It landed right anyway, So Danny Glover is like, you
Speaker 3: shouldn't be hanging out with her, it's bad for your career,
Speaker 3: but NONI and Kaz keep seeing each other anyway. There's
Speaker 3: a montage where she's doing different like you know, learning
Speaker 3: dance choreography and like doing a make a Wish thing
Speaker 3: and photo shoots and he's there every step of the way.
Speaker 3: But like we foreshadowed, he's being like pretty judgy about
Speaker 3: quite a bit of it in a way that whatever,
Speaker 3: we'll get there. But he's like, wow, the lyrics to
Speaker 3: your songs also are like buh, and she's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I wish I could write songs with more meaning full lyrics,
Speaker 3: and he's like, okay, do it, and she's like, look
Speaker 3: at my box full of basically like just a little
Speaker 3: handwritten notes of lyrics that have come to her, which
Speaker 3: honestly sharing that with anyone else brave. I would not.
Speaker 3: That's just me. That would be like someone like looking
Speaker 3: through my joke notebook. God, wouldn't wouldn't be me, wouldn't
Speaker 3: be sharing that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I gotta share a clean dressed yeah something if
Speaker 4: someone's interested.
Speaker 2: In seriously that maybe a little sacks hey. I was
Speaker 2: like wow, Like Nodi is really like needing connection with
Speaker 2: someone so much that she'll like take a risk and
Speaker 2: show something that vulnerable with like objectively. At this point
Speaker 2: in the movie, some guy.
Speaker 3: Right, And then also Kaz is like what about Kid
Speaker 3: Culprit And she's like, yeah, he's kind of my boyfriend
Speaker 3: and he's like, okay, what about us. So then Nony
Speaker 3: breaks up with kid Culprit and he seems very chill
Speaker 3: about it, and they still have a working relationship.
Speaker 4: He does say a phrase you use the press, don't
Speaker 4: let the press use you, right, Yeah, so that's for
Speaker 4: like a later see that at the same time, like yeah,
Speaker 4: the later scene. Still it confuses me, and that it
Speaker 4: doesn't confuse me, But we'll, I know, we keep saying
Speaker 4: we'll get to that. It's there's so much, like.
Speaker 2: So there's so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, anyway, that will kind of come to a
Speaker 3: head in a moment. But first, Noni does a sexy
Speaker 3: little surprise for kaz by blindfolding him and taking him
Speaker 3: on a private jet because he's never been on a
Speaker 3: plane before.
Speaker 2: I was weirdly like not comfortable with her behavior. Let
Speaker 2: me off, let me off the plate, and she's like no, no, babe.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, babe, and then she like is.
Speaker 3: Ignoring all of his like very obvious signals that he's
Speaker 3: very uncomfortable and then has sex with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a consent issue, and it's a like basic
Speaker 2: human safety issue.
Speaker 3: I was really grossed up by that.
Speaker 2: I can't believe I'm defending Officer Kazam in this, but like,
Speaker 2: let him off the plane, absolutely, let him off the plane.
Speaker 3: Yeah sure, Yeah. And then Nannie does a live performance backstage,
Speaker 3: though her mom Macy is like, hey, kaz you're not
Speaker 3: good for my daughter because every time people see you together,
Speaker 3: they see her on that balcony you know who's better
Speaker 3: for her is Kid Cuddy or whatever?
Speaker 4: Kid Culprit.
Speaker 2: I know that's how you know Minnie Driver is a
Speaker 2: villain where she's like, you know, who'd be a great
Speaker 2: boyfriend for you? Machine Gun Kelly. You're like, no good
Speaker 2: parent would choose that for their child. Right.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, though, on stage at this performance, there's this situation
Speaker 3: where the choreography was supposed to be that she was
Speaker 3: gonna remove her jacket during the performance, she decides to
Speaker 3: keep it on. Kid Culprit is then like trying to
Speaker 3: like forcibly rem He's also becoming very violent and like
Speaker 3: rapee on stage, and then he takes the mic and
Speaker 3: he's just like, you know, hey, everyone, she didn't break
Speaker 3: up with me. I broke up with her, and that's
Speaker 3: why she tried to jump off the balcony. It's really disgusting.
Speaker 3: And then a fight breaks out between Kaz and Kid Culprit.
Speaker 3: So Danny Glover is disappointed in Kaz for jeopardizing his
Speaker 3: political career.
Speaker 4: Sounding like every black dad in the world, So you
Speaker 4: a thug now.
Speaker 3: And then Macy's also disappointed in Nony for reasons I'm
Speaker 3: not even sure what is happening.
Speaker 4: There, but she calls her a bloody cliche and it
Speaker 4: sort of goes back to like what she said earlier
Speaker 4: about like, well, listen, Britney Spears and Kanye West still
Speaker 4: had these stunts that they came out with albums like
Speaker 4: what makes Nony any different?
Speaker 2: M Yeah right.
Speaker 3: Anyway, all this is getting to Nony and she has
Speaker 3: a breakdown. Kaz comforts her and then he takes her
Speaker 3: on this like relaxing getaway to Mexico.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 2: Then we get a huge like it's like a montage.
Speaker 2: It is like a five minute montage of them eating
Speaker 2: one food, getting one kiss. You're just like, yeah, Vibe Vibe,
Speaker 2: it's a ViBe's montage. They're on the beach.
Speaker 3: You might even say, she's going beyond the lights. Wow,
Speaker 3: all of those flashing paparazzi photos, all the lights, camera.
Speaker 2: Action, all the lights, camera Jackson remember him?
Speaker 3: No, but we feel it.
Speaker 2: We have to keep going.
Speaker 4: The movie was originally titled Blackbird, and then it got
Speaker 4: changed to Beyond the Lights.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, right, Which I wonder what that what the
Speaker 2: reasoning was on that, because I think Blackbird makes way
Speaker 2: worse since it feels like more a tune to what
Speaker 2: the clear like to what the movie is. And also
Speaker 2: she sings this song fifty times beyond the lights. They
Speaker 2: don't say that once in the movie. Therefore, how could
Speaker 2: it be the title?
Speaker 3: How could it be the title? Okay, So they're doing
Speaker 3: all this stuff, and then there's a scene where they
Speaker 3: sing karaoke and this is one of the times that
Speaker 3: Noni sings Blackbird, just like she did when she was
Speaker 3: a kid at the talent contest. But someone has recorded
Speaker 3: her singing this and they've posted it on the internet.
Speaker 3: So Macy figures out where Nonie is, as does the paparazzi,
Speaker 3: so they all kind of like crash her quiet get away,
Speaker 3: and Noni and her mom seem to have a tender
Speaker 3: moment for once, and then Macy's like, okay, back to
Speaker 3: the grind, and Noni's like, okay, let's go. But Kaz
Speaker 3: is like, no, things are just gonna go back to
Speaker 3: the way they were, which was like very toxic for you.
Speaker 4: He also sounds really judgy, Yeah, yeah, shaming her.
Speaker 2: He's judging her, and he's also like, I know what's
Speaker 2: best for you, and I'm like, surely the plot won't
Speaker 2: enforce this reality, but.
Speaker 3: What it does, so yeah, they like argue, and then
Speaker 3: he breaks up with her. So Noni and Kaz returned
Speaker 3: to La but separately, and Noni with this video of
Speaker 3: her singing Blackbird, fans are seeing this new side of her.
Speaker 3: So she wants to record a new song for the
Speaker 3: upcoming album, something that she writes because she's like, I
Speaker 3: have something to say and people seem to want to
Speaker 3: hear it, and it seems like her mom advocates for
Speaker 3: her in a meeting with the label, but it turns
Speaker 3: out that Macy was full of shit. So Noni confronts
Speaker 3: Macy about how she controlled every aspect of Nonie's life
Speaker 3: and career and how she turned her into this like
Speaker 3: sexy product to be sold and consumed, and then Noni
Speaker 3: fires Macy as her manager.
Speaker 2: Oh it is like yeah, the also like twenty fourteen,
Speaker 2: I feel like it was a high for like Mamager representation.
Speaker 2: We had like the Kardashians approaching their peak. I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: interesting putting a Mamager character. Also very mid twenty ten's
Speaker 2: decision firing the Mamager awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, Kaz is gearing up to announce his candidacy, as
Speaker 3: I think he's going to be running for city council
Speaker 3: person in La cool.
Speaker 2: That's what we need, another cop on city council.
Speaker 3: Yeah, seriously. Nony approaches him to try to make up,
Speaker 3: but he brushes her off, saying that what they had
Speaker 3: started on a lie, so it was never going to work.
Speaker 2: And again it's just like oh right. A fundamental part
Speaker 2: of Officer Kazam is that he values the truth.
Speaker 3: I just I don't know, because politicians are famously obsessed
Speaker 3: with telling the truth.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: The LAPD really gets away with a lot in this movie,
Speaker 2: The famously honest laped right.
Speaker 3: Okay, So then Noni goes on TV. Her label wants
Speaker 3: her to dispel the myth that she attempted suicide once
Speaker 3: and for all, but instead she tells the truth. She
Speaker 3: says that she was attempting suicide and she realized that
Speaker 3: she had to stop trying to be someone who she
Speaker 3: wasn't and now she's living her authentic life.
Speaker 2: This is where that Don Lemons becomes integral to the plot,
Speaker 2: right right.
Speaker 3: Kaz sees this interview and he's proud that she finally
Speaker 3: is telling the truth. Then Noni does a concert in
Speaker 3: the UK where she performs a song that she wrote,
Speaker 3: which pays homage to Nina Simone's Blackbird, and then Kaz
Speaker 3: shows up and he's like, hey, I love you, by
Speaker 3: the way, and she's like, cool, I love you too,
Speaker 3: and that's how the movie ends. So let's take a
Speaker 3: quick break and we will come back to discuss.
Speaker 2: And we're back, okay. Yeah, I mean, is there anywhere
Speaker 2: that jumps out to you for a starting point here?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, no pressure.
Speaker 4: No, like, it's like so much like. Yeah, And I
Speaker 4: do feel like we need to talk specifically about Nathan
Speaker 4: Parker because because his personal life is is relevant to
Speaker 4: the movie.
Speaker 2: So yeah, Nate Parker, if you don't remember, this was
Speaker 2: a huge point of discussion, I believe five ish years
Speaker 2: ago now, was a prominent actor and filmmaker who had
Speaker 2: assaulted and raped a student while in college in the
Speaker 2: late nineties early two thousands, and was found guilty in
Speaker 2: the early two thousands of having done this. As we
Speaker 2: see very often, this resulted in a small settlement for
Speaker 2: the survivor and a slap on the wrist for Nate Parker. Essentially,
Speaker 2: he moved schools and went on to obviously thrive significantly.
Speaker 2: This story became I think it became a huge cultural
Speaker 2: talking point in twenty nineteen, although the information was always available,
Speaker 2: but it became a cultural talking point post me too,
Speaker 2: essentially after he had been a working filmmaker for some time,
Speaker 2: and it also came out. I don't remember the exact
Speaker 2: timeline of this, but it was found out when it
Speaker 2: became a discussion point that the person he had raped
Speaker 2: had taken their own life several.
Speaker 4: Years before, in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in twenty yeah, and like right, maybe maybe I'm
Speaker 2: getting the timeline wrong, and this was coming, this was
Speaker 2: happening when his birth of the twenty.
Speaker 4: Became Yeah, okay, now twenty sixteen, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay, So it's actually a little bit ahead of the
Speaker 2: me too movement. Wow, I can't believe it was that
Speaker 2: long ago, God time, but yes, that that the woman
Speaker 2: he dessaulted had taken her own life back in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: This did absolutely impact his career, but I feel like
Speaker 2: it has sort of fallen out of the conversation to
Speaker 2: the point where, honestly, when I it took me a
Speaker 2: second tilt for my brain to catch up. I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's Nate Parker, and oh oh oh, like there and
Speaker 2: particularly with the subject matter of this movie. His presence
Speaker 2: is like really difficult to stomach in context that he
Speaker 2: is the one who is I mean, I take issue
Speaker 2: with the concept of like his being the rescuer in
Speaker 2: the first place, but given the actor and his history,
Speaker 2: like it's just.
Speaker 3: It's gross, horrifying. And I mean the relationship between his
Speaker 3: character and Noni plays out in a way that I
Speaker 3: find very unsettling as well. I mean, like we mentioned,
Speaker 3: there are some Titanic parallels. The beginning of their relationship
Speaker 3: feels very like Jack and Rose coded. Where So, for example,
Speaker 3: Noni and Rose, they start off the movie in a
Speaker 3: relationship with a shitty, rich white guy. Both women feel
Speaker 3: intense pressure from society and from their mothers to stay
Speaker 3: with this guy. Both women attempt suicide. Then, in both cases,
Speaker 3: a man who comes from more humble beginnings intervenes in
Speaker 3: her suicide attempt and saves her. There's encouragement in both
Speaker 3: stories to lie that this was a suicide attempt. The
Speaker 3: man who intervened will go on to become the woman's
Speaker 3: new boyfriend, and he will help the woman escape that
Speaker 3: world that she felt trapped in and break free from
Speaker 3: all the pressure and live a new, more authentic life.
Speaker 3: So very, very just titanic these stuff happening here, even
Speaker 3: some of the dialogue where Rose says at one point,
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a
Speaker 3: crowded room screaming at the top of my lungs and
Speaker 3: no one even looks up and none he says, I
Speaker 3: feel like I'm suffocating in the middle of the street
Speaker 3: and no one can see me dying.
Speaker 2: And you're like, it's an updated yes, But I just
Speaker 2: wanted to take it back for a second because I'm
Speaker 2: glad that you brought up Nate Parker's criminal history and
Speaker 2: history of assaulting women. I guess what, going into this
Speaker 2: viewing and knowing that, how does that inform how the
Speaker 2: subject matter is treated in the movie? Does it make
Speaker 2: a difference for you. I'm just curious on your take
Speaker 2: on that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like Gudo. Prince Midwood has always like like
Speaker 4: in like previous interviews and like previous commentary and stuff,
Speaker 4: for like The Secret Life of Bees, Like she'd always
Speaker 4: talk about like how he was such a nice guy
Speaker 4: and like he was very respectful of like the love
Speaker 4: interest he was paired with in her films. But it's
Speaker 4: just very disappointing because like these consensual interactions does not
Speaker 4: erase the huge, huge amount of lack of consent in
Speaker 4: two thousand and one when he was at Penn State.
Speaker 4: And it's also quite heartbreaking because like he gets to
Speaker 4: make movies again, and you have these actors and filmmakers
Speaker 4: going like, oh, he's he's learned his lesson, like he's
Speaker 4: going through a lot of learning and da da da,
Speaker 4: and it's just so sad and it's so weird seeing
Speaker 4: like the concert scene where kid culprit is is assaulting
Speaker 4: Nony and then Nate Parker's character is framed as the
Speaker 4: hero in that situation and it's very unsettling to watch.
Speaker 4: And and also it also doesn't help that like another way,
Speaker 4: like kid Culprit's character is sort of foreshadowing like in
Speaker 4: the in like the Sexy music video in the beginning,
Speaker 4: he's he's like strangling Nony a little bit, And I
Speaker 4: just have so many questions around, like how were you
Speaker 4: directed in this? And also like Judah Prince Bithewood, like
Speaker 4: I have not agreed with how she likes to place
Speaker 4: her actors in situations without their permission in order to
Speaker 4: get them in the role like she she plays Jennifer
Speaker 4: Hudson in a store where white men are calling her
Speaker 4: the Edward in order to prepare her for the Secret
Speaker 4: Life of Bees and then for Beyond the Lights. She
Speaker 4: placed Googa Babathra in Nate Parker in this situation where
Speaker 4: paparazzi show up and he has to take care of
Speaker 4: her unexpectedly.
Speaker 2: And also like, I don't know, like, given Nate Parker's history,
Speaker 2: I'm like, don't leave him alone with cugoo, right, But yeah,
Speaker 2: I saw that referenced in a Vulture interview that she
Speaker 2: did around the release of this movie, and it was like,
Speaker 2: I honestly like, I was surprised. I wonder if she
Speaker 2: still does stuff like that. I guess I don't know
Speaker 2: how you would do that for the woman King, But
Speaker 2: it felt almost like Blair Witch Project production approaches, where
Speaker 2: it's like, I'm just gonna leave you in the woods.
Speaker 2: Won't that be fun? Yeah? I mean, thank you for
Speaker 2: your insight on that. And I'm realizing that the reason
Speaker 2: that I thought this had taken place in twenty nineteen
Speaker 2: is because that's the last time he directed a movie. Yep,
Speaker 2: so he has since in fact directed movies since this
Speaker 2: became a publicly known story and he's currently filming another one.
Speaker 2: So if you you know, here's your daily reminder that
Speaker 2: cancelation isn't a thing, right, Yeah, but I thought it was.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I as far as the way suicidality
Speaker 2: and mental health is treated in this movie, it was
Speaker 2: a little it was like all over the place for
Speaker 2: me where I think that, like, this movie does have
Speaker 2: something to say about how I mean, it felt like
Speaker 2: in line with a lot of pop stars stories of
Speaker 2: how extremely constrictive and controlled Nonie's life is, and how
Speaker 2: that pressure and being forced in all these directions she
Speaker 2: doesn't want to go in, it has an extreme adverse
Speaker 2: effect on her mental health to the point where she's
Speaker 2: driven to this place. I guess I wish that the
Speaker 2: it's a romance movie, so this was never gonna happen.
Speaker 2: I just wish it had spent a little more time
Speaker 2: analyzing that. It felt like the way that that ends
Speaker 2: up being analyzed asn't a.
Speaker 5: Pretty surfacy kind of way that allows a lot of
Speaker 5: the abusive people kind of off the hook a little bit.
Speaker 2: I was surprised. I was. I think that if this
Speaker 2: movie was made today, NONI would more likely cut her
Speaker 2: mom out of her life and not just out of
Speaker 2: her business. I felt like Macie maybe got off a
Speaker 2: little easy, but that's that's just my opinion.
Speaker 3: I guess I got the impression that she did cut
Speaker 3: her out of her life because like she's not.
Speaker 2: Or I guess what I've more referred to as like
Speaker 2: how the neighbor or hairstylist that she grew up near
Speaker 2: was sort of encouraging her, like your mom loves you,
Speaker 2: she'd love to see you sometime. Like it just felt
Speaker 2: like that door was not completely closed. I don't know.
Speaker 3: My big concern about it is something we were starting
Speaker 3: to touch on, which is to me an implication that
Speaker 3: she is almost cured of her suicidal ideation because of
Speaker 3: the romance of a man. I also thought, and you know,
Speaker 3: you might feel different ways about this, but we never
Speaker 3: see her getting or seeking actual medical help or like
Speaker 3: getting help from mental health professionals.
Speaker 2: She only mentioned but she says that she says this,
Speaker 2: but I'm getting help. You're like, don't know if that's
Speaker 2: useful to know what that means?
Speaker 3: Right, Like, what does that mean? Is that even true?
Speaker 3: And it would have been so helpful because you know,
Speaker 3: there's still so much stigma around therapy and mental health
Speaker 3: in general. It was even worse ten years ago when
Speaker 3: this movie came out. It would have been very nice
Speaker 3: to see a character seeking and getting that help with
Speaker 3: her mental health on screen. The movie just glosses over
Speaker 3: it and basically just implies, you know, she was cured
Speaker 3: of this speak and it's the same thing that Titanic does. Really,
Speaker 3: she's cured of her suicidal ideation because this man helps
Speaker 3: to set her free. And I don't like that implication.
Speaker 4: There's there's an interview where Regina Prince Begwood is like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I didn't I didn't want to make a film where
Speaker 4: it just looks like she's saved by a man and
Speaker 4: it's like, well, well you did you did for him? Like,
Speaker 4: and she and she had talked about like if I
Speaker 4: wanted to take a more realistic approach, like it would
Speaker 4: have been a thing where Kas died on the job
Speaker 4: and Nony lost him through that way, and I'm like,
Speaker 4: like you, like like I would have been totally fine
Speaker 4: with like their narrative ending when like Nony comes to
Speaker 4: his house and is like thanks and like and yeah,
Speaker 4: he's he's judging when he's all like this start line,
Speaker 4: But like I've I totally would have been fine with
Speaker 4: just ending it a breakup and she continues to thrive
Speaker 4: in her music career without him. That's what I would
Speaker 4: have loved so much better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's just I totally agree with with your
Speaker 2: beds Nay. Like I do feel like in the last
Speaker 2: half hour of the movie, she becomes more self motivated
Speaker 2: and is starting to make her own choices. But it
Speaker 2: starts very late in the movie for me, Like it
Speaker 2: I think after they get back from the trip in Mexico,
Speaker 2: that is, that's sort of the first time in the
Speaker 2: movie that I can think of that you see Nony
Speaker 2: start to make her own choices. They're not all good choices,
Speaker 2: but they're choices, right because because i Am is telling her like,
Speaker 2: don't go back with your mom, and she's like, well
Speaker 2: I want to, and like deviates from what she's being
Speaker 2: told to do. But prior to that, it's like she
Speaker 2: is being shepherded in all these ways, which I know
Speaker 2: is consistent with the character because how she's set up
Speaker 2: her life is extremely controlled. But in terms of like
Speaker 2: telling this story, I sort of wanted to see her.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, I just don't feel like I
Speaker 2: know her as well as the movie is telling me
Speaker 2: that I know. And because of like the context and
Speaker 2: tone of the movie, you could have a therapist in
Speaker 2: this movie easily and it would be helpful as a
Speaker 2: viewer to understand. And by the time we learn more
Speaker 2: about her childhood outside of the opening scene, it almost
Speaker 2: feels like kind of too late to get into because
Speaker 2: I think that, like Macy is behaving cartoon villain the
Speaker 2: entire movie, and like is I think that that is,
Speaker 2: Like we don't get a lot of movies about mothers
Speaker 2: and daughters period, much less a mother with a biracial daughter. Like,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things happening in this movie that
Speaker 2: you don't often see, but I feel like it takes
Speaker 2: so late in the movie to underst I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just felt like there were things I was missing
Speaker 2: that the movie thought I had the whole time, and
Speaker 2: it fills in that space that I would like to
Speaker 2: know about, and like the opportunity this movie has to
Speaker 2: comment on stardom and it fills it up with this
Speaker 2: like love story with a cop that I was not
Speaker 2: really rooting for it at any point I kept wanting, like,
Speaker 2: no need to like break out on her own, go
Speaker 2: to Mexico by yourself, meet someone in Mexico like it,
Speaker 2: just because even the trip was like Kaz's idea and
Speaker 2: it's all his idea, and I just don't like, yeah
Speaker 2: it I think that, you know, he certainly poses less
Speaker 2: of an immediate exploitational harm to her than her mother does.
Speaker 2: But it does feel like going from one set of
Speaker 2: controlling hands to another exactly in a way that doesn't
Speaker 2: really feel challenged by the movie and makes me feel
Speaker 2: for NONI I'm like, she's got a like clean house completely,
Speaker 2: including the boyfriend. It would feel.
Speaker 3: Good, especially because he's also the one that kind of
Speaker 3: suggests Slash gives her the idea sort of that she
Speaker 3: should write her own songs, And.
Speaker 2: I'm like, how is that his idea?
Speaker 3: How is it his idea?
Speaker 2: What it just I feel like, yeah, there's I think
Speaker 2: there's a real important and like, I like showing it
Speaker 2: makes sense to me that Nody's character would be fragile
Speaker 2: in many ways, and I think, you know, like when
Speaker 2: we've talked about this on the show a million times,
Speaker 2: how women and fems when they're put in lead roles.
Speaker 2: I think the over correction of she's, you know, girl
Speaker 2: bossing around in a way that like doesn't really square
Speaker 2: with how she was raised, in what she's experienced, but
Speaker 2: it still feels like it. She doesn't have enough agency
Speaker 2: to the point where she's a global pop star and
Speaker 2: it has never occurred to her to write her own
Speaker 2: song and she has to be told by an LAPD
Speaker 2: officer named Kazam, and like, I just don't buy it.
Speaker 2: I don't like that as a plot point. I don't
Speaker 2: like it.
Speaker 4: I wish she had more interactions with other women and
Speaker 4: fems in the industry. Like all we get is her
Speaker 4: walking past Shaka Khana Shaka Khan going I like your hair,
Speaker 4: and that's all that's all we get.
Speaker 2: Which is delightful, But we're like, I want more, I
Speaker 2: want more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why doesn't she have any friends?
Speaker 2: I feel like you could explain that away by like
Speaker 2: the level of control her mom house. But even like
Speaker 2: a fellow pop star, like there's I don't know even
Speaker 2: even uh extremely sheltered and controlled pop stars. No other
Speaker 2: sheltered and controlled pop.
Speaker 3: Stars they could commiserate about that.
Speaker 2: They collaborate all the time, exactly, and that's a way
Speaker 2: more interesting story. I can't get past the cop thing.
Speaker 2: I just like it's so difficult, Like could he could be?
Speaker 2: I it like even if it bugs me less if
Speaker 2: he's just an aspiring politician and I know that, Like again,
Speaker 2: there's no I will never understand why that was the decision,
Speaker 2: but I like they share this common theme that their
Speaker 2: lives are predetermined, and through this relationship they need to
Speaker 2: bust out of these expectations that their parents have for
Speaker 2: them and how their lives should go. I get that
Speaker 2: that is there like parallel. I don't understand why he
Speaker 2: has to be a cap.
Speaker 3: My guess is that as this story was being crafted,
Speaker 3: it was like, well, under what circumstances would she get saved?
Speaker 3: Because that seemed to be like writer director Gina Prince
Speaker 3: Bythewood wanted that to be the kind of impetus for
Speaker 3: this relationship to form. So it's like, Okay, well someone
Speaker 3: needs to save her. Who would save her? A cop
Speaker 3: that's kind of acting as a bodyguard. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 3: And it's like, well, no, it doesn't have to be
Speaker 3: that number one. It doesn't have to be any man
Speaker 3: who saved you or intervenes in some kind of you know, violence,
Speaker 3: whether it's self inflicted or otherwise, you don't need to
Speaker 3: fall in love with them. But so many movies present
Speaker 3: that as like, well, this man saved this woman, so
Speaker 3: obviously she's gonna end up with him. That doesn't have
Speaker 3: to be the case. I don't you know. I respect
Speaker 3: Gina Prince Bythewood as a filmmaker, and of course, my
Speaker 3: guess is just like tropes beget tropes, she set out
Speaker 3: to write a love story. I was watching an interview
Speaker 3: with Variety that she was giving, and she said that
Speaker 3: she wanted to write a love story and that she
Speaker 3: was interested in what was going on in the music
Speaker 3: industry at the time, especially in regards to how it
Speaker 3: treats women. And she's like, okay, I can marry these
Speaker 3: two ideas together. That's my story. And so she set
Speaker 3: out specifically to write a love story. And you know
Speaker 3: when filmmakers write stories, they're like, okay, how do these go?
Speaker 3: Like what how does a movie love story go? And
Speaker 3: my guess is just you know, you're inspired by previous
Speaker 3: similar movies and stories, and then we ended up with this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't mean to like completely drag her.
Speaker 4: No, no, no, especially.
Speaker 2: Because it's like where I don't know, it's like where
Speaker 2: we live and and I don't know even if the
Speaker 2: cops stuff was more in the background than it is,
Speaker 2: but it goes out of the way to show you
Speaker 2: how good he is in the context of his job,
Speaker 2: for sure. Like, especially the domestic violence thing really bothered me.
Speaker 2: It was really frustrating. Yeah, that there's this didn't even
Speaker 2: come up in the recap really because it's not necessary.
Speaker 2: But there there's two different times where you see there's
Speaker 2: a domestic violence situation and I couldn't tell what neighborhood
Speaker 2: it was supposed to be, but in a low income
Speaker 2: neighbor neighborhood in La that officer Kazam is sent to
Speaker 2: and he solves the problems, which like the cops and
Speaker 2: specifically the LAPD famously do not do. And it's like
Speaker 2: they cut to this story twice.
Speaker 4: And the second time he's not in uniform. It's like,
Speaker 4: can you like liability for that?
Speaker 3: Right? He's not on duty. Yeah, there's the scene where
Speaker 3: he's trying to basically convince the local pastors to like
Speaker 3: endorse his political candidacy and he's talking about, you know, oh,
Speaker 3: the violence in this community, and if I am elected,
Speaker 3: I'll turn it all around. But he's referring to like
Speaker 3: the violence you see on screen, is this like one
Speaker 3: case of domestic violence, which of course is you know,
Speaker 3: very real and very serious. But again, cops historically don't
Speaker 3: respond well to those situations. And there's no mention if
Speaker 3: he's talking about violence, there's no mention of police brutality,
Speaker 3: the targets black and brown people. The movie's just general
Speaker 3: opinion of cops is like no, no, no, they're the
Speaker 3: good guys. They're serving and protecting and they're the heroes
Speaker 3: and then they're gonna do the right thing every time, right.
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting that, like I get I
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it at this point, but
Speaker 2: if we're like talking the parallels between the two characters
Speaker 2: who are in they're both being pushed by these institutions
Speaker 2: to do things that they don't want to do. But
Speaker 2: like what its presented with on Officer Kazam's side is
Speaker 2: that he's pushed to be a politician, and it's the
Speaker 2: politician system that is bad. But if he just wants
Speaker 2: to be a cop, that's fine. Where it's like if
Speaker 2: she doesn't like and she just wants to be a
Speaker 2: singer songwriter, And I was like, we just like singer
Speaker 2: songwriter and LAPD officer. It's not the same thing. I
Speaker 2: just I don't know, Like obviously you know, like I
Speaker 2: like that, you know the system that is trying to
Speaker 2: push him into uh basically you know, like doing the
Speaker 2: politician thing and using all of the connections and altering
Speaker 2: how you behave and what you say and what you
Speaker 2: do to serve getting a position that is like all
Speaker 2: very well taken and mirrors no Need's experience as well.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, And that's all I'll say about it.
Speaker 2: But the I don't know. I kept trying to be
Speaker 2: like shifting at my head to be like he's a
Speaker 2: security guard basically, he's basically a bodyguard. But the movie
Speaker 2: does not let you do that. It keeps big like
Speaker 2: and he is great at this job that is noble
Speaker 2: and effective. And I don't know, very twenty fourteen, And
Speaker 2: that's I guess I'll say about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, something I think the movie handles better is the
Speaker 3: examination of the sexualization and commodification of entertainers in general,
Speaker 3: but especially women and fans of their artistic talent and
Speaker 3: of their bodies to be clear, As we've always said
Speaker 3: on the show, we don't have a problem with an
Speaker 3: entertainer or any adult person being sexy, wearing sexy clothes,
Speaker 3: showing skin. I sound so old, making art about sex
Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Who's machine gun?
Speaker 4: Kelly and Gina Prince Bishy talks about that in interviews too,
Speaker 4: where she said, like, I do believe there are there
Speaker 4: are pop stars who are genuine about like toning their sexuality,
Speaker 4: and she's like, I just take issue with like those
Speaker 4: who are pressured into it when they don't need.
Speaker 2: To be exactly.
Speaker 3: It's all about, like, is the sexiness on the artists' terms?
Speaker 3: Are they consenting to this image that's being presented of them?
Speaker 3: Are they being given agency and choice in the matter,
Speaker 3: or is it being foisted on them? And as we
Speaker 3: learn throughout the movie, this like sex symbol image for
Speaker 3: Nony was foisted on her by her mother, by her mom,
Speaker 3: by her record label. Yeah, and she desperately wants to
Speaker 3: be seen the way that she wants to be seen,
Speaker 3: not how the music industry wants to see her. And
Speaker 3: she wants to you know, be able to for the
Speaker 3: artist slash musician side of her to be more authentic
Speaker 3: to who she is, but she can't because of all
Speaker 3: the pressure that's coming at her from all these directions,
Speaker 3: and it's all wearing on her so much, this lack
Speaker 3: of autonomy and agency and every thing that she and
Speaker 3: she feels so trapped by it that it leads her
Speaker 3: to attempt suicide. And I think that's pretty effective commentary
Speaker 3: on just the music industry and the media and the
Speaker 3: way that you know, record labels and paparazzi and how
Speaker 3: all of that exploits artists and musicians and again her
Speaker 3: mom and the response she gets from fans on social media,
Speaker 3: like there's just so much weighing on her. Yeah, And
Speaker 3: I thought that was handled pretty well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I liked how they involved when it came to like
Speaker 4: the movie making process. They involve people who who have
Speaker 4: worked with pop stars that such the choreographer Lorienne Gibson,
Speaker 4: who's the inspiration behind the movie Honey really.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my god, Jessica Alba.
Speaker 4: She plays Jessica Alba's rival, even though like, looking back
Speaker 4: on it, I'm like, you could you just you deserve
Speaker 4: to play you in your own movie, Like Jessica album
Speaker 4: was chosen to play you. That for me, I'm like,
Speaker 4: oh that that sucks. That is not non black person
Speaker 4: gets to play you in a boom about you. But anyways,
Speaker 4: between conversations between the choreographer and the director, like the
Speaker 4: word that they said kept coming up was the word ratchet,
Speaker 4: which made me laugh. As far as like being as
Speaker 4: intentional with realistic aspects of the of like choreography as possible,
Speaker 4: which I thought was very cool. And at the same
Speaker 4: time though it's like the lyrics are so oft the nose,
Speaker 4: like treat me like your object.
Speaker 2: Right, there's I love I love songs written to make
Speaker 2: a point in a movie because they're they're so uncanny Valley,
Speaker 2: they're like stick your face in it, and you're like, okay,
Speaker 2: it's not quite giving a song that exists, but but
Speaker 2: I see where you're point. Yeah. I thought that the
Speaker 2: way that those things were treated felt like to be
Speaker 2: like the strength of the movie and like when I
Speaker 2: wish there'd been more of like I would have happily
Speaker 2: swapped out the majority of the romance for another pop
Speaker 2: star character to play off of, or someone within the industry,
Speaker 2: because it felt like these good points were made about
Speaker 2: the industry, but they were all made by like this
Speaker 2: outside party quote unquote every man in a way that
Speaker 2: felt like it would be better illustrated to just like
Speaker 2: it's a lot of telling where you could have had
Speaker 2: a lot of showing, but you still get like a
Speaker 2: lot of interesting things that I feel like have aged
Speaker 2: very well as information around the lives of pop stars
Speaker 2: that we grew up with continued to come out, like
Speaker 2: she's emotionally abused by a stage parent from a very
Speaker 2: young age and is clearly profited on by a stage
Speaker 2: parent who does not have her best interested at heart.
Speaker 2: That's a very common thing. I thought that like, also
Speaker 2: like the little parts of after she attempts suicide, she
Speaker 2: is not only told that she needs to walk it
Speaker 2: back to save her career, she also has to actively
Speaker 2: and repeatedly apologize to her fans. And the way that
Speaker 2: it happens it feels like pretty in step with what
Speaker 2: happened in the mid twenty tens. I feel like the
Speaker 2: more there it would be an even more cynical approach now.
Speaker 2: But then it's like, I, you know, excessive drinking is
Speaker 2: no joke, kids, and I apologize, and like you see
Speaker 2: pop stars doing that today with people who have young
Speaker 2: fan bases, if they display humanity in any way, or
Speaker 2: if they're like a person will into their twenties or
Speaker 2: thirties that are like having a night out, they have
Speaker 2: to apologize to children. And it's just like this very
Speaker 2: very twisted thing and the way I mean it's a
Speaker 2: little on the noes how she's criticized by the media,
Speaker 2: because it's also clear that like Gail King is having
Speaker 2: fun doing this fake interview, but it felt close enough
Speaker 2: to reality. The record store exactly, the record label executives.
Speaker 2: Maybe felt a little over the top cartoon villain to me,
Speaker 2: but nobody is supposed to be the girl every guy
Speaker 2: wants to be like that. You're just it is a
Speaker 2: little over it, but but the spirit of it felt
Speaker 2: true of like how controlled her life had to be
Speaker 2: and the way that I mean, I think especially and
Speaker 2: there's been a fair amount of public conversation about this,
Speaker 2: about how black women in entertainment are treated and discarded,
Speaker 2: where you know, it's it feels clear in the writing,
Speaker 2: the performance, and the story that Noni is scaling an
Speaker 2: even steeper hill in terms of how she has to
Speaker 2: conduct herself to be quote unquote respected as a pop star,
Speaker 2: which I feel comes out really clearly in the through
Speaker 2: line about her hair and like a big turning point
Speaker 2: in her character story, as when she takes out the lavender,
Speaker 2: the lavender weave that she's been wearing for most of
Speaker 2: the movie when they're on vacation in Mexico and she
Speaker 2: starts just having natural hair, and that's like a big
Speaker 2: I feel like that was the churning point for me
Speaker 2: where I was like, I started to feel really invested.
Speaker 2: But she's so helpless for so much of the.
Speaker 3: Movie in a way that's like you understand why she
Speaker 3: feels helpless, and you know, we know that she feels
Speaker 3: trapped and she doesn't have the autonomy and agency that
Speaker 3: she wants, but also the movie rights her in certain
Speaker 3: ways that she doesn't.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's this complicated thing, and I don't want to sound
Speaker 3: like I'm victim blaming, where like, oh, why didn't she
Speaker 3: just advocate for herself all the time, Like that's a
Speaker 3: very difficult thing to do when you're so repressed by
Speaker 3: everyone around you, you don't have the ability to do
Speaker 3: that a lot of the time.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, So I doesn't think it's more
Speaker 2: the like because I agree, And I don't mean to
Speaker 2: sound like I'm like, well, why doesn't she just I
Speaker 2: think that the thing for me is more like it
Speaker 2: feels like the suggestion is that cop boyfriend is the solution,
Speaker 2: right or right, and it suggests and that at that
Speaker 2: point it's been heavily suggested that that is the solution
Speaker 2: for over an hour and.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yes, I uh just wanted to touch a little
Speaker 3: bit more on the relationship between Noni and her mother,
Speaker 3: where we see the pressure that Macy puts on Noni
Speaker 3: from the time that she's a little kid, making her
Speaker 3: throw away her you know, runner up trophy, and then
Speaker 3: from that point on we see all the ways in
Speaker 3: which her mother controls Nonie's life or is complicit in
Speaker 3: this like music industry false image of Noni, where we
Speaker 3: see things like after Nony's suicide attempt, Macy clearly doesn't
Speaker 3: know how to process this and responds with anger and
Speaker 3: disappointment rather than concern or compassion.
Speaker 4: Look at all you have, you have, you have nothing.
Speaker 3: Nothing to cry.
Speaker 2: She's fucking awful.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we see Macy controlling what Nony eats. We see her.
Speaker 2: That I thought was really well doe like in terms
Speaker 2: of how subtle it was where there's a scene happening
Speaker 2: and she takes out the fried food yea and throws
Speaker 2: it at like just stuff, and Nony doesn't flinch. This
Speaker 2: is clearly routine tappers, right. Yeah.
Speaker 3: We see that scene during a photo shoot where Nony
Speaker 3: is told to take off her top or her jacket
Speaker 3: and she's not wearing anything underneath, and she's visibly uncomfortable,
Speaker 3: but Macy's like, yeah, do it.
Speaker 4: Like yeah, and Macy even asks like can we get
Speaker 4: are you planning on doing a full body shot?
Speaker 3: Like yeah, right, right, right right. You know, you see
Speaker 3: Macy trying to control Nonie's romantic life and wants her
Speaker 3: to be with kid Culprit, which is also we learn
Speaker 3: that that was like a fabrication by the label, like
Speaker 3: oh they got together for press quote unquote, and then
Speaker 3: it seemed like it turned into something more real whatever
Speaker 3: that even means between in a relationship with a machine
Speaker 3: gun Kelly. But you know, Macy's trying to control that
Speaker 3: aspect of Nonie's life, just all these different things, and
Speaker 3: then like later on when Macy it seems like there's
Speaker 3: a tender moment between them and it seems like Macy
Speaker 3: is advocating for Nonie in the meeting with the label.
Speaker 3: Turns out it was all an act. It was just
Speaker 3: Macy doing the thing that she always does, which is
Speaker 3: manipulating and controlling. I do think that Macy cares for
Speaker 3: and loves her daughter, she just doesn't do it in
Speaker 3: a healthy way at all. She doesn't love and support
Speaker 3: Noni the way that she needs to be love and supported,
Speaker 3: which is a very, you know, familiar thing for many people.
Speaker 3: That's what a lot of parent child relationships are like,
Speaker 3: or just what a lot of relationships are like in general.
Speaker 3: So I appreciated that it was I think a pretty
Speaker 3: realistic exploration of that dynamic where Macy is quote unquote
Speaker 3: there for Noni, but in the most toxic way imaginable
Speaker 3: and not having her best interests at heart, not because
Speaker 3: she's necessarily like inherently evil, she just does she And
Speaker 3: then we get the backstory that kind of informs a
Speaker 3: lot of this, where Macy had Noni when she was
Speaker 3: a teenager and she had no support system when she
Speaker 3: was trying to raise her.
Speaker 2: Did y'all have I don't know. I guess again, I
Speaker 2: was as we were, is that scene was really interesting
Speaker 2: to me because it's the first scene that we don't
Speaker 2: see Macie being outwardly abusive. She is being emotionally manipulative, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but not in the aggressive way that we've kind of
Speaker 2: gotten used to seeing her. I do kind of and
Speaker 2: I know that that sets up kind of the bait
Speaker 2: and switch of Noni. I don't blame Noni for going
Speaker 2: back with her mom, because it feels very clear that
Speaker 2: like she wants to believe the best in her mom
Speaker 2: in a way that seems really painful. I guess. I
Speaker 2: just like I was trying to like get I was like,
Speaker 2: what is the utility of holding that story back from
Speaker 2: us for so long? Like, I don't know, I wonder
Speaker 2: if you view like how it affects the movie if
Speaker 2: that scene comes earlier. I didn't. I guess it felt
Speaker 2: like a twisted like it was presented like a not
Speaker 2: like a twist, But I just was I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't feel one particular way about it. But I
Speaker 2: was like, it's interesting that that comes up so late
Speaker 2: in the movie, because it's like, part of what I'm
Speaker 2: missing with Nonie's character is like an understanding of her
Speaker 2: outside of that first scene, Yeah, which is clear what
Speaker 2: the dynamic is, but it would have just been nice
Speaker 2: to know because it just helps you understand her better.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I have so much to say about Macy, please okay,
Speaker 4: because what I appreciate about the hair scene in the beginning,
Speaker 4: she doesn't say do my daughter's hair. She says show me.
Speaker 4: She says, show me how to do my daughter's hair.
Speaker 4: And Gina Prince Mirkwood talks about like being adopted by
Speaker 4: white parents and her white parents sacretary to the hairdresser,
Speaker 4: going like help, please help, And again I'm not I'm
Speaker 4: not saying this to excuse any of her behavior in
Speaker 4: the movie, but like witnessing her her black child, the
Speaker 4: only black child amongst an array of white girls and
Speaker 4: very shiny outfits who are dancing or hula hooping the
Speaker 4: majority of the time, and that being prioritized over her
Speaker 4: over her daughter, like that having like a sense, like
Speaker 4: a sense of valid like I said that anger is
Speaker 4: as valid where where she's like that hula hooping that's bullshit.
Speaker 4: I actually like appreciated like she's yelling about that instead
Speaker 4: of yelling directly at her daughter, but then she does
Speaker 4: yell directly. I had at her daughter going like chuck
Speaker 4: it with the trophy and that's very sad, and I'm like.
Speaker 2: Sang it like oh it's I like that she's written
Speaker 2: to be so frustrating though, like sorry continue and yeah.
Speaker 4: So then you see her black daughter with like with
Speaker 4: like a weave that's straight hair, and like for the
Speaker 4: scene in the kitchen, Nondy mentions a nose job, not
Speaker 4: just the weave. So so it's like, oh, like, so
Speaker 4: your white mom is continuing to tell you over the years,
Speaker 4: like here's how you make yourself more European for this
Speaker 4: music industry and like, and I think that's where like
Speaker 4: kid culprit comes in too, because like Big Sean was
Speaker 4: up for the part, but he didn't get it and
Speaker 4: he ended up like just having that short scene with
Speaker 4: Nony going like hey you good. And I have mixed
Speaker 4: feelings about it because because on one end, it's it's like
Speaker 4: I would have appreciated one with more talent in the role,
Speaker 4: but at the same time, like casting casting a white
Speaker 4: rapper and a white mom choosing the white rapper for
Speaker 4: her biracial daughter sort of makes sense, especially like when
Speaker 4: it comes to this white rapper garnering a lot of
Speaker 4: success and it's like he is your key to success,
Speaker 4: and again not saying this at all to like excuse
Speaker 4: any of that behavior, and yet no falling in love
Speaker 4: with a with a black man, and then Macy going like,
Speaker 4: I don't trust.
Speaker 3: You, Frank, I trust the white guy. I want my
Speaker 3: daughter to pay with the white guy.
Speaker 2: And again, you can't hit that point home more clearly
Speaker 2: than choosing machine Gun Kelly to be the white guy
Speaker 2: that you put your trust in. Yeah, that scene I
Speaker 2: thought was I was glad that we got a scene
Speaker 2: between Officer Kazam and Macy. I Again, it's like I
Speaker 2: wish that it wasn't more clear cut that it's like
Speaker 2: he is the right choice and she's the wrong choice,
Speaker 2: because it's I think there's an argument that they're may
Speaker 2: be both the wrong choice and exactly NONI needs to
Speaker 2: spend some time with herself and not in someone else's
Speaker 2: quote unquote clutches or whatever. But I yeah, I love
Speaker 2: that sort of analysis of the character where it's like
Speaker 2: she's she's really challenging, and I just don't think I've
Speaker 2: seen a lot of characters like her in movies before,
Speaker 2: and because and she's also objectively they're not shying away
Speaker 2: from the fact that she's an abusive parent, Like she's
Speaker 2: an abusive stage parent who fundamentally is willing to glaze
Speaker 2: over what is good for her daughter by and justifying
Speaker 2: it with like a survival thing when they're clearly past
Speaker 2: the point of needing to be survival in mind, You're
Speaker 2: doing well, And I love, I really liked what Noni
Speaker 2: says when she confronts her, Like makes the argument that is,
Speaker 2: it's like, so much of this is for you. It's
Speaker 2: not all for me in the way that you're presenting
Speaker 2: and in the way that I think we hear about
Speaker 2: a lot of stage parent stories of like I did
Speaker 2: this for you, I did this to protect you. And
Speaker 2: it's like she and NONI was like, I was telling
Speaker 2: you what I that this wasn't working. I forget the wording,
Speaker 2: but like I was telling you something was wrong when
Speaker 2: I was standing on that balcony and you yes. And
Speaker 2: Macy pressures her to say that nothing's wrong, because Macy
Speaker 2: cannot deal with the world in which something is wrong.
Speaker 2: And I can also see how a parent deludes themselves
Speaker 2: into needing to believe that to the detriment of their kid.
Speaker 2: I mean it's just I don't know. I still feel
Speaker 2: like Macy got off a little easy, but it's also
Speaker 2: like a dynamic that I haven't seen portrayed in movies,
Speaker 2: especially because we just so rarely get mother daughter dynamics
Speaker 2: in movies at all, and to see it and not
Speaker 2: have it be like a clean ending of like my
Speaker 2: mama is my life, which I feel like when we
Speaker 2: do get mothers and daughters, it often goes that way.
Speaker 2: It's like not allowed to be messy or complicated, And
Speaker 2: I really like, I think Gina Prince Bidwood does this
Speaker 2: across her work, is like not afraid to get into
Speaker 2: a messy mother daughter scenario. I really appreciate that about her.
Speaker 3: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?
Speaker 4: Gonna check my notes, make sure got everything. At one point,
Speaker 4: Kaz says to Nony when Nony chose the songwriting notes,
Speaker 4: he says, I've interacted with sea word able to seaword people,
Speaker 4: and I can tell your your sea word and like
Speaker 4: she laughs it off, and I'm like, we're supposed to
Speaker 4: be rooting for this guy.
Speaker 1: What then?
Speaker 4: And then later when his dad says that sea word
Speaker 4: broad and he's like, don't talk about her like that.
Speaker 4: It's like, you talked about her like that, What are
Speaker 4: you talking about to her face?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Imagine like showing the most vulnerable thing you've ever
Speaker 3: put to paper, and like, you know, just like things
Speaker 3: about your feelings and even just showing anything you've written
Speaker 3: to someone if you're a writer is scary. And then
Speaker 3: he is like, wow, you seem yeah, ablest word and
Speaker 3: she's like ha ha ha, and it's like, sir, just
Speaker 3: all the men in her life were horrible because again
Speaker 3: kid Culprit like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the thing that grows me out the
Speaker 2: most about him outside of obviously the scene where he
Speaker 2: assaults her on national television, which again no ne needs
Speaker 2: to be rescued from anyways. This it's like the first
Speaker 2: scene that he's in and he tells her to keep
Speaker 2: it tight and her mom does not flinch. She's like, yep,
Speaker 2: no issue with this because her mom's also constantly policing
Speaker 2: her body and you're just like, yeah, nasty.
Speaker 3: So the scene where Nony breaks up with kid Culprit,
Speaker 3: he's he seems like he handles it okay. He's like,
Speaker 3: I won't shed a tear about it, but I thought
Speaker 3: we had something good and she's like, we were just
Speaker 3: kind of hooking up, like nothing deeper was happening.
Speaker 2: But she's like, Mary, I loved I loved leave. Hearing
Speaker 2: it in the in a British accent too, like we
Speaker 2: would text in and then we were hitting it, and
Speaker 2: then we would text it about hitting it. I was like, wow, Wow,
Speaker 2: it sounds so fancy when you say it like that.
Speaker 3: But then when we see kid Culprit again, you learn
Speaker 3: that he did not handle that rejection well at all.
Speaker 3: His male ego is particularly fragile, and it was very shattered,
Speaker 3: to the point where he lashes out aggressively and violently
Speaker 3: and he sexual assaults her on stage in front of
Speaker 3: thousands of people, which her mother says nothing about as
Speaker 3: it's happened.
Speaker 2: My mother shames her afterwards and is like, well look
Speaker 2: what happened, as if. And I think that what she's
Speaker 2: implying there is like, because you broke up with him,
Speaker 2: this is the consequence, and you're just like fuck.
Speaker 3: You, yeah, anything else.
Speaker 4: I wish there was more focus on, like how sexism
Speaker 4: clearly affects Nony more than Kaz because like he like
Speaker 4: in his politician world, like he's fine because like you
Speaker 4: lose the pastors, but he gets the youth vote and
Speaker 4: like not even putting into consideration how like Nony basically
Speaker 4: lost her job, like was dropped from the label, just
Speaker 4: to like get back on the label.
Speaker 2: But still like yeah, he's just on like an extended vacation.
Speaker 2: Like he's just like because he calls, He's like, hey,
Speaker 2: I'll be back soon, and you're like, his job is, yeah,
Speaker 2: his job is at no point is that risk? Really,
Speaker 2: he's just more no Danny Glover, Dad, I don't want that.
Speaker 2: And Danny Glover's like, oh, I should be in another
Speaker 2: Saw movie. That's how he reacts to most people in
Speaker 2: every movie said Saw. Yeah, He's like, you know, now
Speaker 2: that you say that, I really it's high time I'm
Speaker 2: in Saw eleven. Oh.
Speaker 4: Only there's apparently like some deleted like set a dialogue
Speaker 4: where like Kaz tells nobody about the death of his mom,
Speaker 4: like where the director says that in an interview and
Speaker 4: I'm like, what.
Speaker 2: Well, they do like reference that in one Danny Glover
Speaker 2: scene where he's like, I don't want to be a
Speaker 2: heartbroken old man, and you're like, first time I'm hearing
Speaker 2: the mom is dead, So that makes sense. That that
Speaker 2: was reference at some other point this movie what.
Speaker 4: It's interesting, and she talks about how like it got
Speaker 4: scrapped because like working with her husband helps her. She
Speaker 4: says something along the lines of like, oh, working with
Speaker 4: my husband helps me like get rid of certain drafts
Speaker 4: that I don't need, as well as like highlighting what
Speaker 4: love and respect could look like. And I don't want
Speaker 4: to dig so much at Judah Prinsbythe's personal life. But
Speaker 4: at the same time, it's like, so I have questions
Speaker 4: because we have this black love story that is not good,
Speaker 4: and the black love story and love and basketball was
Speaker 4: also not good. And you've mentioned like your husband has
Speaker 4: helped you with that, Like I just have so many
Speaker 4: follow up questions about like what what your ideal romance is.
Speaker 4: And I know that there was like conversations earlier about
Speaker 4: like tropes come from like other points of media and
Speaker 4: so on and so forth. At and at the same time,
Speaker 4: it's like one of the trophy things in your romantic
Speaker 4: relationship that you were reflecting in your film.
Speaker 2: Right, makes you wonder it sure does.
Speaker 3: Well well. This movie does pass the Bechdel test a lot,
Speaker 3: a lot. Many of the conversations are between a woman
Speaker 3: and her abusive mother.
Speaker 2: Yep, but it does pass.
Speaker 3: Are there any other passes between or besides those two characters.
Speaker 2: No, which I feel like is a sign that it
Speaker 2: would be I understand that it is in keeping with
Speaker 2: the music industry that there are a lot of men
Speaker 2: at the top. That's part of why these issues are
Speaker 2: so perpetuated and unchallenged in a long term. It would
Speaker 2: have been nice to give her a woman within the
Speaker 2: music industry to talk to. I think it would have
Speaker 2: like more strongly enforced a lot of the themes that
Speaker 2: the movie's handling well and getting, like the romantic interest
Speaker 2: cops take on the music industry. I guess I just
Speaker 2: wasn't very interested in his takes.
Speaker 3: Right, there are two friends of it seems that get
Speaker 3: introduced but then quickly disappear from the story. It's the
Speaker 3: people who are like following her to the hotel room
Speaker 3: early on.
Speaker 2: Right right, and they're like, aha, she's drunk, which is
Speaker 2: also weird because it's like said by Macie later, maybe
Speaker 2: it's just that like Nony does drink and her mom
Speaker 2: doesn't know about it, but her friends are like, hah,
Speaker 2: she's drunk. But then we're later told you don't drink
Speaker 2: because in.
Speaker 4: The beginning, one of the friends tells Noni when she
Speaker 4: after she was a Billboard Awards, she's in the car.
Speaker 4: I didn't notice this until the second time I watched this,
Speaker 4: but like one of the friends go, whoa, our girl
Speaker 4: is in bibing So.
Speaker 2: Not that line.
Speaker 3: Wow, So that does imply that she doesn't normally drink.
Speaker 6: So okay, okay, I missed that line. I mean, either
Speaker 6: God bless that line. Either way, she does have a
Speaker 6: female friend. The other guy or the other person seems
Speaker 6: to be a man. I think he's a gay man
Speaker 6: because he's talking about a man he's attracted or he's
Speaker 6: you know, he's queer. And it's like, where are those friends.
Speaker 6: Why aren't they helping in some way? Where's their support
Speaker 6: that they could be giving. What's going on there? The
Speaker 6: movie doesn't seem to care very much anyway. We've got
Speaker 6: a nipple scale to rate the movie on. Yeah, our
Speaker 6: scale of zero to five nipples based on examining the
Speaker 6: movie through an intersectional feminist lens. For me, oh, I
Speaker 6: wish I could give this more because I do like
Speaker 6: Gina Prince Bethwood's work generally, and I appreciate that she's
Speaker 6: one of the few directors who is a black woman
Speaker 6: who's getting mainstream movies out there.
Speaker 2: And even so, like it's still I mean, as we
Speaker 2: talked about on our episode on The Women King last year,
Speaker 2: is still not getting the amount of institutional respect that
Speaker 2: she deserves from award bodies and for sure, Yeah, check
Speaker 2: out our episode on The Women King for more discussion
Speaker 2: on that.
Speaker 3: So I wish she had made a movie that there
Speaker 3: wasn't so much to criticize a belt, but it's so
Speaker 3: And I'm surprised that this movie is so uncritical of
Speaker 3: police based on who the director, the writer, director is,
Speaker 3: the romance, and the movie in the implications of it,
Speaker 3: not enough development of the Nony character, all these things,
Speaker 3: you know, not great. I do appreciate what the movie
Speaker 3: has to say about the commodification of women, but it
Speaker 3: just doesn't quite tip the scales enough. So I think
Speaker 3: I'll just say two point five nipples. I'll give one
Speaker 3: to Google Batha Raw, I'll give one to Minie Driver.
Speaker 3: I like her as far as I know. I hope
Speaker 3: she's not done or said anything problematic.
Speaker 2: You never know.
Speaker 3: It's so hard to keep track of everybody.
Speaker 2: As far as I know, she's still with us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and of course I'll give my half nipple to
Speaker 3: Danny Glover of Saw one fame.
Speaker 2: I'm also gonna give this two and a half. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, I am a Gina Prince by Food fan.
Speaker 2: This is just like not my favorite from her, and
Speaker 2: it hasn't aged well in many regards, some of which
Speaker 2: were within her control, some of which weren't. I feel
Speaker 2: like I've come down hard on this. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I like twenty fourteen still feels too late for such
Speaker 2: an aggressive lapd cop hero love story. I know that,
Speaker 2: like obviously, if this movie was made today, there would
Speaker 2: be a number of things that would not be the
Speaker 2: way that they are, Nate Parker's casting to begin with, right,
Speaker 2: and that the world has changed a lot since this
Speaker 2: movie came out. So I hope it didn't come down
Speaker 2: too hard on it. I really am a big fan
Speaker 2: of this writer director. I just did not really I
Speaker 2: don't know where I think this movie does work is
Speaker 2: a commentary on Like we've talked about the commodification of
Speaker 2: women and fem's bodies in entertainment and the sort of
Speaker 2: zero sum game for someone who wants to make art
Speaker 2: on their own terms and be successful. Those parts worked.
Speaker 2: The romance didn't really hit for me. I'm pro like
Speaker 2: learning yourself better through a romantic relationship, but we just
Speaker 2: didn't really see anything outside of that. It just which
Speaker 2: just leads the viewer to believe that it was the
Speaker 2: romantic relationship that caused all of these things, which doesn't
Speaker 2: feel fair to Nonie's character. Let's see, Okay, see, I'm
Speaker 2: going to go two point five. I'm going to give
Speaker 2: one to Google, I'm going to give one to Mini,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to give my half to Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: Wow yes, Wow, yes, Maya, how about you, I'm gonna.
Speaker 4: Give it three. I'm going to give it three because,
Speaker 4: like it's it's very much not perfect as far as
Speaker 4: like this in the entire Roman's angle and the copy
Speaker 4: Gana and like so many other things that we've talked about.
Speaker 4: But I just really appreciate the amount of black women
Speaker 4: involved in the making of the movie, and like it
Speaker 4: took so long to get made because Judah Prince Bythewood
Speaker 4: was advocating for Google to be in the role, like
Speaker 4: even though like a bunch of singers and songwriters had
Speaker 4: auditioned for the role, she wanted Google Mabuthro in it,
Speaker 4: even though she had a musical theater background, and this
Speaker 4: was before she got cast it in Bell and before
Speaker 4: her like career skyrocketed between twenty and fourteen and twenty sixteen,
Speaker 4: and it was a black woman who was like, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I see the promise in this film and like in
Speaker 4: like BT films got to like showcase it. So I
Speaker 4: really appreciate the amount of fighting for this film that happened,
Speaker 4: even though it does make me sad that like Guda
Speaker 4: Prince Bythewood like fought so much more for like Gugu
Speaker 4: Mabuthra than what she did for Sinai Lathan for love
Speaker 4: in basketball. Who does make a please cameo in this
Speaker 4: in this movie? So I assume these are fine, but
Speaker 4: like when they've worked together again like after that, so yeah,
Speaker 4: again I assume things are fine. But still it's like.
Speaker 2: Wow, where's her cameo?
Speaker 3: I missed it at.
Speaker 4: The BET Awards right before they right before they perform
Speaker 4: on stage, like where they're walking the red carpet and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 4: like we see her for like two seconds like posing,
Speaker 4: so she doesn't have a speaking role and yeah, just
Speaker 4: loving how Mini Driver took on their role, even though
Speaker 4: a lot of actresses were like, I don't want to
Speaker 4: take on this role. She's evil and minie drivers like,
Speaker 4: I don't give a fuck about your perception of me.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be of service to this movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's like a mini fucking drive.
Speaker 3: Like Yeah, I was in the phantomm of the two
Speaker 3: thousand and four.
Speaker 4: She has a sticky background too, which I didn't know
Speaker 4: for like the longest time, and would have been interesting
Speaker 4: to see if like that could have been included.
Speaker 2: I don't know she's in. She was in Gross Point
Speaker 2: Playing Yeah Anyway, amongst other hits.
Speaker 4: And there's another interview where the director talks about almost
Speaker 4: losing a loved one to suicide and therefore wanting to
Speaker 4: put that in the in the Stories film and I
Speaker 4: and I in the film Stori excuse me, And I
Speaker 4: can appreciate that, even though it's not perfect and like,
Speaker 4: and she's touched on suicide and a lot of her films,
Speaker 4: like whether she's written them or directed them, And I
Speaker 4: find that an interesting pattern for her and her work,
Speaker 4: Like she she was supposed to be adapting a story
Speaker 4: that was about mental illness, but then it got passed
Speaker 4: to a white dude. I'm upset about that because like
Speaker 4: the novelist or something like wanted to work work with
Speaker 4: him instead, because like Mark Ruffalo had said, like this
Speaker 4: guy's great. A screw that up. So so yeah, I'm
Speaker 4: giving three nipples. I'm gonna give one to I wrote
Speaker 4: this down. I'm gonna give one for Google, Pabetha and
Speaker 4: Minnie Driver to share. I'm gonna give one to the
Speaker 4: choreographer Lauren Gibson and Gina Prince Bythewood to share. And
Speaker 4: I'm gonna give one to Chaka Khan. Yeah, and the
Speaker 4: actor Darryl Stevens who plays the queer black man in
Speaker 4: the beginning we barely hell yeah, And I said, like,
Speaker 4: maybe I would give it three point five if I
Speaker 4: could give likeo point five to Shaka Khan's assistant being
Speaker 4: credited that she never liked two seconds. But yeah, somewhere
Speaker 4: between three three and a half. It is my official answer.
Speaker 4: And Caitlin, you were gonna say something.
Speaker 3: Oh no, I was just gonna thank you for joining
Speaker 3: us on this episode, Thanks for returning, and where can
Speaker 3: people check out your stuff? Plug away?
Speaker 4: Thank you. Folks can follow me at m doub sixteen,
Speaker 4: MDUBB one six on Instagram and Twitter, and I have
Speaker 4: the website Maya williamspoet dot com. I have a second
Speaker 4: book out, which again, thank you again for having me
Speaker 4: again just because like for we did Perks of Being
Speaker 4: a Wallflower. First book came out was Using a Suicide.
Speaker 4: We're doing Beyond the Lights. Second book that came out,
Speaker 4: it's a book poetry collection called Refused a Second Date,
Speaker 4: and it's about racism and dating, mental health and dating
Speaker 4: and like intergenerational and dating patterns between myself and my mom,
Speaker 4: my mom, who's actually on the cover of this collection,
Speaker 4: and I'm still happy that she said yes.
Speaker 2: An incredible picture, Thank you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and my mom is biracial, which plays a huge
Speaker 4: role into why I identify as black and multi racial.
Speaker 4: And again, like seeing Beyond the Lights and seeing multiracial
Speaker 4: representation like when we were getting like a spike of
Speaker 4: it between twenty fourteen and twenty sixteen was really impactful.
Speaker 4: And yeah, please please buy my book. Hell yes, this
Speaker 4: one's through different publisher, Harbor Editions.
Speaker 3: Very nice and you can follow us on Instagram and
Speaker 3: Twitter at Bechdel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon
Speaker 3: where you get two bonus episodes every single month, always
Speaker 3: centering an awesome theme that's so cool and good and
Speaker 3: always has a really good, awesome name.
Speaker 2: Like the Pinocchio Wars.
Speaker 3: We just wrapped up Dance Somber. We covered a couple
Speaker 3: dance movies.
Speaker 2: Can you believe it?
Speaker 3: Can you?
Speaker 2: Honey? Got brought up?
Speaker 3: That's another dance movie that we will have to add
Speaker 3: to the list. Yes, And that can be found at
Speaker 3: Patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast, and it's five dollars
Speaker 3: a month and gets you access to the entire back
Speaker 3: catalog of bonus episodes.
Speaker 2: You can get our merch over at teapublic dot com
Speaker 2: slash the Bechdel Cast. And again we'll also be linking
Speaker 2: where you can buy Maya's work because we're just simply
Speaker 2: big fans over here. Thank you, and yeah, it's an
Speaker 2: honor that you joined us again. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Always happy to join you'all again. Thank you both so much.
Speaker 3: Yay, Now let's go on stage and sing a song.
Speaker 2: Wow power Flat Dick, Bye bye bye.
Speaker 6: Way we happened to the British access by Oh.
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Speaker 3: Caitlin Dorante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
Speaker 3: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
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