WEBVTT - Rhiannon Giddens: Black History Month Bonus 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.356 --> 0:00:23.316 Hey there, We're halfway through Black History Month now, and 0:00:23.436 --> 0:00:25.716 although we didn't intend to rerun some of our older 0:00:25.756 --> 0:00:29.516 conversations to celebrate the month, after realizing we needed to 0:00:29.556 --> 0:00:32.236 do something to mark Usher's super Bowl performance and the 0:00:32.276 --> 0:00:35.076 release of the new Bob Marley biopick One Loove, we 0:00:35.116 --> 0:00:37.116 figured we might as well keep going and celebrate the 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:40.196 whole month long, because now we have a country album 0:00:40.356 --> 0:00:44.716 from Beyonce on the way. Beyonce released two songs from 0:00:44.716 --> 0:00:47.316 her upcoming album the Night of the super Bowl, Sixteen 0:00:47.316 --> 0:00:51.316 Carriages and Texas Hold Them, to a rapturous response. Not 0:00:51.356 --> 0:00:53.836 only are the songs good, but they sparked a lot 0:00:53.836 --> 0:00:57.356 of meaningful conversations about the usefulness of genres, the way 0:00:57.436 --> 0:01:01.316 marketing shapes are listening and gatekeeping and music. Those are 0:01:01.316 --> 0:01:03.956 all things very close to Rhann and Giddon's heart. As 0:01:03.996 --> 0:01:06.996 a black banjo player steeped in the American tradition and 0:01:07.036 --> 0:01:11.876 its Transatlantic roots, She's been living this conversation her whole career. 0:01:12.836 --> 0:01:14.996 Randon also happens to play on the song Texas Hold 0:01:15.076 --> 0:01:17.596 Them with Beyonce, which just this week hit number one 0:01:17.596 --> 0:01:19.876 on the country chart, the first time a black woman 0:01:19.876 --> 0:01:23.076 has ever held that spot. She also played on sixteen 0:01:23.076 --> 0:01:26.116 carriages too. So let's flash back to when we had 0:01:26.196 --> 0:01:28.836 Rann an unbroken record back in twenty twenty one to 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:31.996 speak with Bruce Headlam about her album They're calling Me Home. 0:01:35.156 --> 0:01:38.396 This is broken record liner notes for the digital Age. 0:01:38.556 --> 0:01:39.476 I'm justin Ritchman. 0:01:40.556 --> 0:01:43.956 Here's Bruce Headlam with Ryann and Giddens from twenty twenty one. 0:01:44.956 --> 0:01:47.556 Thank you, first of all, so much for doing this. 0:01:48.156 --> 0:01:51.516 We're talking about your new album and your last album 0:01:51.556 --> 0:01:54.516 and anything else you want to talk about your ballet. 0:01:54.636 --> 0:01:55.756 You wrote a ballet too. 0:01:55.636 --> 0:01:56.036 Didn't you. 0:01:56.556 --> 0:01:58.996 Yeah, I wrote a ballet an opera. 0:01:59.396 --> 0:02:00.876 I didn't know about the opera. What was that? 0:02:01.676 --> 0:02:02.316 Well, it was. 0:02:02.316 --> 0:02:04.076 Opposed to debut last year, and then it was going 0:02:04.116 --> 0:02:05.556 to debut this year, and I was going to debut 0:02:05.676 --> 0:02:09.956 next year. But yeah, it's called Omar. It's for Leo Festival, 0:02:10.596 --> 0:02:14.796 and it's about Omari. Vin Said, who was a Quranic 0:02:14.876 --> 0:02:19.756 scholar thirty seven years old, captured, sold from Senegal, brought 0:02:19.796 --> 0:02:23.996 over on the Middle Passage and ended up enslaved for 0:02:24.236 --> 0:02:26.916 fifty years until his death in North Carolina. He wrote 0:02:26.956 --> 0:02:28.276 his autobiography in Arabic. 0:02:28.556 --> 0:02:30.636 Wow that sounds incredible. 0:02:30.716 --> 0:02:32.876 Yeah, it's just there's a lot of a lot of 0:02:32.916 --> 0:02:36.476 stories within that one story. So yeah, you know, this 0:02:36.636 --> 0:02:41.636 new record is almost all you know, old material, traditional 0:02:42.036 --> 0:02:45.116 traditional songs or songs that were written you know, in 0:02:45.156 --> 0:02:47.836 that style, but are recent and all of my original 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:50.996 material has been gone into an opera the last couple 0:02:51.076 --> 0:02:54.676 of years. So I was like, well, hopefully people will 0:02:54.716 --> 0:02:58.676 be okay, there's it's not an original record. But you know, 0:02:58.716 --> 0:02:59.556 it's like, it's never. 0:02:59.436 --> 0:03:01.516 Been my bag anyway writing stuff. 0:03:01.916 --> 0:03:04.116 Well, it's not, it's not my it's not never been 0:03:04.116 --> 0:03:07.396 my focus. Like, if the story is told best through 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:10.476 an original song, I'll do it. But I was an 0:03:10.516 --> 0:03:13.156 interpreter for years before I ever thought about writing songs. 0:03:13.396 --> 0:03:16.156 So I'm never sitting down going Okay, I need to 0:03:16.156 --> 0:03:19.356 write a new album. It's like, if there's no inspiration 0:03:19.476 --> 0:03:23.156 to write the song, and there often isn't because it's 0:03:23.196 --> 0:03:26.316 just there's so many great songs out there already, there's 0:03:26.356 --> 0:03:29.156 so much great music, so it has to be something. 0:03:29.236 --> 0:03:31.796 Really I feel like I can tell in a way 0:03:31.836 --> 0:03:35.876 that's you know, specific to me. That means, you know, 0:03:35.916 --> 0:03:37.676 I'm just not gonna write for the sake of writing. 0:03:38.076 --> 0:03:40.036 Was it hard for you to start writing having been 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:41.636 an interpreter for so long. 0:03:42.596 --> 0:03:45.916 No, because I you know, I don't really write about myself. 0:03:45.916 --> 0:03:49.476 I've only written a couple of songs from my points 0:03:49.476 --> 0:03:52.436 of view, and they're not on any of my records. 0:03:53.796 --> 0:03:57.636 You know, I write from a cultural point of view, 0:03:57.676 --> 0:04:00.156 from other people's point of view, and those are the 0:04:00.196 --> 0:04:02.876 songs that, you know, when they started to come out, 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:05.436 it was those kind of songs like Julie, like at 0:04:05.476 --> 0:04:08.716 the Purchaser's option, like you know, he's very specific, trying 0:04:08.756 --> 0:04:12.996 to highlight like black and mostly female voices. You know 0:04:13.036 --> 0:04:15.036 that I feel like need to be highlighted, and a 0:04:15.036 --> 0:04:18.916 lot of times they come through as real spiritual kind 0:04:18.956 --> 0:04:23.316 of events, you know. I mean I have written songs 0:04:23.396 --> 0:04:26.756 like I wrote usually with partners, like with people like 0:04:26.836 --> 0:04:30.196 I wrote all of my most of my Nashville songs 0:04:30.236 --> 0:04:34.036 with my songwriting partner from Louisiana, Derk Powell. You know 0:04:34.876 --> 0:04:37.796 that I could do. I was like, okay, like I 0:04:37.836 --> 0:04:41.436 can co write songs that I'm not connected to, like 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:44.356 in a cultural way, you know, but just coming for me. 0:04:44.476 --> 0:04:48.636 I did one for NPR. It was like songs you know, 0:04:48.796 --> 0:04:51.356 coming out of the experiences of Lockdown, and it was 0:04:51.676 --> 0:04:56.756 I found it very torturous. Like, yeah, I was just like, 0:04:57.596 --> 0:05:02.876 who cares about what I'm feeling? Like, it's my feelings, 0:05:02.916 --> 0:05:07.276 and really, my life's not that bad. What's what do 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:09.796 I need to say here? It was very It was 0:05:09.836 --> 0:05:12.476 a very interesting thing, and it just solidified what I 0:05:12.556 --> 0:05:13.516 do and what I don't do. 0:05:15.356 --> 0:05:17.516 That's a very funny thing for an artist to say, though, 0:05:17.676 --> 0:05:18.876 who cares what I'm feeling? 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:23.716 Well, I feel like everybody makes their art in the 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:26.796 way that makes sense to them, and for me, I 0:05:27.196 --> 0:05:31.356 am the least important and interesting thing in what I do. 0:05:32.276 --> 0:05:34.876 You know, and I know that there's amazing songs out 0:05:34.916 --> 0:05:36.916 there that have come out of people's experiences that have 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:39.756 made a great difference to people. And you know, I've 0:05:39.836 --> 0:05:42.636 enjoyed some of those songs, and it's a totally valid 0:05:42.636 --> 0:05:44.356 way to go. It's just not my way. 0:05:44.756 --> 0:05:46.956 Your new album is great, it's coming out in a 0:05:46.996 --> 0:05:49.996 little while, So tell me about making this album. 0:05:50.596 --> 0:05:54.596 You know, everybody has had to adjust to this pandemic, 0:05:54.756 --> 0:05:58.916 like and I say, like, there's just such huge differences 0:05:58.956 --> 0:06:02.756 between how you know, people who are comfortably off well 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:07.956 off and people who aren't have had a pandemic. You know, 0:06:07.996 --> 0:06:10.236 there's been people who've never had to stop working and 0:06:10.276 --> 0:06:12.876 interacting with people because they're on front lines or their 0:06:12.916 --> 0:06:16.076 service industry or anything. You know, they needed the paycheck, 0:06:16.196 --> 0:06:18.556 and people who could just kind of hold up in 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:21.796 their houses for a year. And there's detrimental things to 0:06:21.836 --> 0:06:24.636 all of it. But I just say all of it 0:06:24.716 --> 0:06:28.796 with an acknowledgement of privilege. You know, I think it's 0:06:28.916 --> 0:06:33.556 very important to do that, but to say that in general, 0:06:33.956 --> 0:06:38.356 you know, artists, musicians, there's an additional difficulty you know, 0:06:38.556 --> 0:06:41.796 with in that are very work. It's like we're like 0:06:41.836 --> 0:06:44.076 the restaurant industry, you know, it's like our very work 0:06:44.116 --> 0:06:47.756 involves people. You know, we can't just not work in 0:06:47.756 --> 0:06:50.316 an office and work at home and do emails like 0:06:51.236 --> 0:06:54.156 it's so that's been really hard. And then I just 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:58.356 got the idea. We've been playing these old folk songs 0:06:58.356 --> 0:07:01.236 that were you know, they were just kind of cropping up. 0:07:01.356 --> 0:07:04.156 You know, I was just finding myself, you know, sit down, 0:07:04.156 --> 0:07:06.156 we sit down with our instruments, and I just start singing. 0:07:06.516 --> 0:07:08.276 And I just said, well, let's just start singing these. 0:07:08.676 --> 0:07:10.836 Let's just doing these in the stream. You know, this 0:07:10.916 --> 0:07:14.436 is my partner Francesco, and it was like night and day. 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:16.996 It was like, oh my gosh, these songs have never 0:07:17.076 --> 0:07:20.556 been on stage, and we're doing them because we're connecting 0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:22.996 to them right now. And I said, let's just run 0:07:23.036 --> 0:07:25.756 into the studio and record these. I'm just feeling them 0:07:25.836 --> 0:07:26.276 right now. 0:07:26.596 --> 0:07:30.796 How did your situation isolation, how did they inform the 0:07:30.916 --> 0:07:31.716 choice of songs? 0:07:33.156 --> 0:07:36.556 Well, these songs, the songs that were coming up, I 0:07:36.556 --> 0:07:39.636 mean were ones I hadn't done in a long time. 0:07:39.996 --> 0:07:42.036 You know, a couple of them pre date the Carolina 0:07:42.116 --> 0:07:43.836 chocol Drops days, Like it was just when I was 0:07:43.956 --> 0:07:46.956 just getting into old time music and I think, you know, 0:07:46.996 --> 0:07:49.156 and the Italian ones were you know, they're ones that 0:07:49.236 --> 0:07:51.836 Francesco is known for a very long time. The two 0:07:51.916 --> 0:07:54.196 main themes of the record are like home and death. 0:07:54.396 --> 0:07:57.476 So we're like surrounded by death every day. It's how 0:07:57.476 --> 0:08:01.156 many people have died, like literally the news every day. 0:08:01.436 --> 0:08:03.316 And then we're like, how many people have died in Italy? 0:08:03.316 --> 0:08:04.836 How many people have died in the US, how many 0:08:04.836 --> 0:08:07.036 people have died in North Carolina? Are my parents going 0:08:07.116 --> 0:08:08.636 to die? Are we even going to be able to 0:08:08.636 --> 0:08:08.916 go home? 0:08:08.956 --> 0:08:09.116 You know? 0:08:09.316 --> 0:08:12.796 It's just like all the stuff that everybody's been dealing with. 0:08:13.356 --> 0:08:16.036 But like that's in the air all the time. So 0:08:16.116 --> 0:08:19.636 these you know, stuff like oh, death just comes up 0:08:19.836 --> 0:08:23.236 and the idea of not being able to go home. 0:08:23.676 --> 0:08:28.676 And so these songs are not just any songs, but 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:34.876 there's songs when I was really coming into my own 0:08:33.956 --> 0:08:38.436 as as identifying as a North Carolinian, you know, like 0:08:38.516 --> 0:08:43.076 for me as a mixed person, multiracial, but like there's 0:08:43.116 --> 0:08:45.036 no there was no space for that. When I was 0:08:45.036 --> 0:08:47.996 a kid. It was like black, white, and other, and 0:08:48.036 --> 0:08:50.716 you had to check a box. And it's just I 0:08:50.756 --> 0:08:54.276 had this existential dilemma every time I filled out a form. 0:08:54.596 --> 0:08:58.396 Did you fill it out differently? At different times I did. 0:08:59.036 --> 0:09:01.756 Sometimes I fill all the boxes in. It depended on 0:09:02.876 --> 0:09:04.716 how much in trouble I would get if I you know, 0:09:04.756 --> 0:09:07.156 so it was like the sat or something I liked. 0:09:07.196 --> 0:09:09.636 You know, I've put it black because I I talked 0:09:09.636 --> 0:09:11.476 to my mom about it, and she's just like, look, 0:09:12.236 --> 0:09:14.036 you know, for all intents and purposes, in this country, 0:09:14.076 --> 0:09:16.356 you're considered black. So that's what you put down, you know. 0:09:16.596 --> 0:09:18.676 But you know, I circle that in. I think of 0:09:18.756 --> 0:09:20.676 my dad, who's white, you know, and I'm just like 0:09:21.116 --> 0:09:23.156 and Back then, I didn't understand the nuance of the 0:09:23.156 --> 0:09:25.196 one drop rule and the history and all that stuff. 0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:27.476 All I knew is this doesn't feel right to me. 0:09:27.636 --> 0:09:30.836 You know, neither one feels right. So when I started 0:09:30.836 --> 0:09:34.516 finding the music of the root music of North Carolina 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:37.676 in my early twenties, that's when I started going, oh, 0:09:37.676 --> 0:09:40.236 I know, I know what I am like. Forget the color, 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:44.516 I'm just like North Carolinian. And it really tied me 0:09:44.636 --> 0:09:48.716 to a sense of belonging in a sense. Even I 0:09:49.036 --> 0:09:51.356 was like, I've been living in North Carolina my whole life, 0:09:51.396 --> 0:09:53.636 other than college, and but all of a sudden, I 0:09:53.676 --> 0:09:55.836 felt like, oh, okay, ida what that means? And I 0:09:55.876 --> 0:09:58.476 found that through the music. So when I sing these songs, 0:09:58.796 --> 0:10:02.156 it takes me back to that feeling of belonging, you know, 0:10:02.236 --> 0:10:05.676 at home. It's it's interesting, it's just like stuff I 0:10:05.676 --> 0:10:10.476 would have never thought about recording ever, and they're coming 0:10:10.556 --> 0:10:13.556 up and just like seeing me like, Okay. 0:10:13.556 --> 0:10:15.596 What's an example of one of the first songs that 0:10:15.636 --> 0:10:17.596 occurred to you that you should you should put in 0:10:17.636 --> 0:10:18.676 this album for that reason? 0:10:19.396 --> 0:10:23.556 Well, like you know, Blackish Crow came up, and that 0:10:23.556 --> 0:10:26.676 that's what was one of the first old time tunes 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:29.716 I ever learned. I still remember learning it from Steve 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:32.076 Terrell wrote it. I wrote the words down like he's 0:10:32.116 --> 0:10:34.716 a kind of a Stalhart in the old time community 0:10:34.716 --> 0:10:38.156 in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I'm just thinking it was 0:10:38.196 --> 0:10:42.476 so beautiful. And then in and of itself, it's dealing 0:10:42.556 --> 0:10:47.476 with being separated from your loved one, and you know, 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:49.276 I wish that I was going with you or you 0:10:49.316 --> 0:10:51.956 were staying here, you know, and especially in the beginning 0:10:51.996 --> 0:10:55.516 of the pandemic. You know, Francesco and I we don't 0:10:55.596 --> 0:10:58.276 live together because we have children who go to school 0:10:58.316 --> 0:11:01.716 in different cities, so we live where they live, and 0:11:01.716 --> 0:11:04.236 it's two and a half hours apart. So there were 0:11:04.236 --> 0:11:06.996 times when we were locked down, like it was serious lockdown, 0:11:07.036 --> 0:11:09.476 and like we didn't even couldn't even go see each other. 0:11:09.836 --> 0:11:12.476 So it's just like all of those thoughts in thinking 0:11:12.516 --> 0:11:16.076 about people who were separated, you know, continents, separated from 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:19.276 their loved ones and not able to go see them, 0:11:18.556 --> 0:11:21.156 and you know, and there's a lot of songs about that. 0:11:21.236 --> 0:11:23.956 Because we haven't always been able to travel as easily 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:26.956 as as we do now. That just came up and 0:11:26.996 --> 0:11:31.836 then it's like the combination of taking this really old 0:11:31.876 --> 0:11:34.476 song and feeling like, so it's an old song on 0:11:34.516 --> 0:11:36.596 its own, so it just has this connection, this kind 0:11:36.596 --> 0:11:40.756 of deep connection right to humanity. And then it's got 0:11:40.756 --> 0:11:43.756 this additional connection that I have, you know, as a 0:11:43.756 --> 0:11:46.796 North Carolinian, feeling like a North Carolinian missing North Carolina. 0:11:47.836 --> 0:11:51.476 And then we're doing it in a way that would 0:11:51.516 --> 0:11:54.316 never be done back home, you know, the way that 0:11:54.356 --> 0:11:59.516 Francisco plays the cello banjo, which was originally owned by 0:11:59.556 --> 0:12:04.876 Mike Seeger. Yeah, because I knew him and his widow 0:12:05.396 --> 0:12:09.556 when he died, Alexia made sure that his vast music collection. 0:12:09.836 --> 0:12:13.196 She let people that he knew and who knew him 0:12:13.596 --> 0:12:17.996 first come pick instruments to buy to be passed on to. 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:21.276 And so I picked that in a beautiful little banjo, 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:24.196 and that teleo banjo had been sitting in my house 0:12:24.796 --> 0:12:27.436 like I'd never played it. I didn't know why I 0:12:27.516 --> 0:12:29.756 bought it, you know, but I just love the sound 0:12:29.796 --> 0:12:32.836 of it, beautiful shape. He put these strings on it, It 0:12:32.956 --> 0:12:35.796 just made it sound like a lute. And then Francesco 0:12:35.916 --> 0:12:37.476 came to my house and picked it up and started 0:12:37.476 --> 0:12:39.476 playing it, and I was like, well, that's why I 0:12:39.476 --> 0:12:39.836 bought it. 0:12:40.116 --> 0:12:40.636 There you go. 0:12:40.916 --> 0:12:44.236 Yeah, and so that's all over the record, that banjo sound, 0:12:44.316 --> 0:12:47.956 what we found, that banjo and my viola. So it's 0:12:47.996 --> 0:12:49.996 just like there's a lot wrapped up in that. And 0:12:50.036 --> 0:12:53.116 then emer is bringing in Ireland with the flute, the 0:12:53.316 --> 0:12:56.876 Irish flute, and so it was just a really I 0:12:56.956 --> 0:12:59.676 felt so fortunate to be able to have been able 0:12:59.716 --> 0:13:00.716 to have that time. 0:13:01.476 --> 0:13:02.956 You're in Ireland now right. 0:13:03.716 --> 0:13:06.556 Been in Ireland since last March. We came from Australia. 0:13:07.076 --> 0:13:09.636 What's it like now to observe because you are in 0:13:09.636 --> 0:13:13.036 North Carolinian you're an American. What's it like to be 0:13:13.596 --> 0:13:15.876 out of the United States for now a year? Which 0:13:15.876 --> 0:13:17.316 is probably what you didn't expect. 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:23.156 I didn't know it. It has been hard, it's been weird. 0:13:23.556 --> 0:13:25.756 It's part of it a little easier, you know. I'm 0:13:25.756 --> 0:13:29.076 thinking of people like Baldwin who who found life abroad. 0:13:29.796 --> 0:13:31.596 It relieved them of something. 0:13:32.036 --> 0:13:35.356 Well in normal days. Yes, it was kind of a 0:13:35.396 --> 0:13:37.276 breath of fresh air to come to Ireland, you know, 0:13:37.316 --> 0:13:40.716 because this is my work. Like when all the stuff 0:13:40.756 --> 0:13:43.716 went down the way it went down last year, you know, 0:13:43.716 --> 0:13:45.956 people were calling me up and asking my opinion about 0:13:45.956 --> 0:13:47.956 stuff I was like, my opinion has not changed. I've 0:13:47.956 --> 0:13:49.476 been talking about this for fifteen years. 0:13:49.516 --> 0:13:49.876 Go away. 0:13:50.836 --> 0:13:53.436 You know. It's just like I'm not surprised by any 0:13:53.436 --> 0:13:57.636 of this, you know, But in the before times, you know, 0:13:58.076 --> 0:14:01.076 I would be on the road talking about minstrel shows, 0:14:01.356 --> 0:14:05.796 coon songs, slavery every night and my you know, interviews, 0:14:05.836 --> 0:14:07.796 blah blah blah, doing this, doing that, And then I'd 0:14:07.796 --> 0:14:09.396 come back to Ireland and just kind of take a 0:14:09.436 --> 0:14:13.636 deep breath, and it's not you know that the specter 0:14:13.716 --> 0:14:15.716 of that. I mean, they have other issues here, but 0:14:16.156 --> 0:14:18.196 the specter of that is not here. And I do 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:21.036 I definitely understand that of just being away from it 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:24.556 when it is your work, but that again, is different 0:14:25.036 --> 0:14:29.516 all together than being completely unable to go back to 0:14:29.556 --> 0:14:31.476 the well and then when all the stuff is going 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:33.596 on and people are protesting and I'm just like I 0:14:33.676 --> 0:14:36.156 have nothing to do and I can't do anything there, 0:14:36.756 --> 0:14:38.556 you know, like all my gigs have been canceled, but 0:14:38.596 --> 0:14:39.396 I can't even help. 0:14:40.276 --> 0:14:42.076 We'll be right back with more from Rhianna and get 0:14:42.116 --> 0:14:49.236 Ins and Bruce Headlam. After a quick break, We're back 0:14:49.276 --> 0:14:50.916 with more from rhiann and get Ins. 0:14:51.436 --> 0:14:54.476 You know, the sense of missing someone in folk music 0:14:55.236 --> 0:14:59.556 from Africa, from Scotland, I assume from Ireland is often 0:14:59.556 --> 0:15:02.876 about missing people across the whole ocean. That's sort of 0:15:02.996 --> 0:15:05.756 embedded in the music. So you must have felt that 0:15:05.796 --> 0:15:08.556 quite strongly when you were playing some of these tunes. 0:15:09.276 --> 0:15:11.356 Yeah, I mean, I haven't seeing my family in over 0:15:11.396 --> 0:15:15.396 a year, Francisco, like especially in the beginning, like Italy 0:15:15.476 --> 0:15:18.596 was hit really hard, like people were dying left and right, 0:15:18.636 --> 0:15:22.276 and like he had relatives who got sick, and you know, 0:15:22.436 --> 0:15:25.236 just the stress of like if something happens, I can't 0:15:25.276 --> 0:15:25.996 even get there. 0:15:26.636 --> 0:15:28.956 It comes out in funny ways in the album because 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:32.396 your version of I Shall not be Moved, which is 0:15:32.396 --> 0:15:36.196 an old spiritual which has been adopted by the labor movement, 0:15:36.556 --> 0:15:39.756 the civil rights movement, and maybe the words there are movements, 0:15:39.956 --> 0:15:43.516 because suddenly it's a song about not being moved, not 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:46.116 being able to move. Almost were you thinking that when 0:15:46.156 --> 0:15:47.036 you were recording it. 0:15:47.916 --> 0:15:51.596 I recorded that because for me, that was my connection 0:15:51.636 --> 0:15:55.316 to Joe Thompson, who was the black fiddler from MEDVN, 0:15:55.356 --> 0:15:59.476 North Carolina, the elder that I like learned his family's tradition. 0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:02.036 Can you explain a little bit of when you met 0:16:02.116 --> 0:16:03.196 him and who he was. 0:16:03.876 --> 0:16:07.116 Of course, Yeah, Joe Thompson was even more important than 0:16:07.116 --> 0:16:10.076 we knew when we started going down to see him. 0:16:10.636 --> 0:16:14.156 He was a massively important person. He was the last 0:16:14.196 --> 0:16:17.156 of a family of black string band traditions. It had 0:16:17.196 --> 0:16:20.076 been passed on as a family tradition. He was part 0:16:20.076 --> 0:16:22.236 of the Thompson family band. They played for the white 0:16:22.276 --> 0:16:24.476 and the black square dances in his area because everybody 0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:27.076 used to do. This is what people don't understand, because 0:16:27.236 --> 0:16:28.916 that's a whole other reason. There's a whole other story 0:16:28.916 --> 0:16:32.396 why people don't know that. And he was the last 0:16:32.676 --> 0:16:35.116 of his family to be playing this music, and nobody 0:16:35.156 --> 0:16:36.876 else had picked it up. And the people he used 0:16:36.916 --> 0:16:38.836 to play with were dead, you know, his cousin and 0:16:38.916 --> 0:16:42.236 his brother, and so he was playing with white musicians, 0:16:42.276 --> 0:16:45.036 you know, wonderful people in the area. And then me 0:16:45.116 --> 0:16:48.036 and the other two original Carolina Chocolate drops, Tom Flemens 0:16:48.076 --> 0:16:51.076 and Justin Robertson started going down to Meben to play 0:16:51.116 --> 0:16:53.356 with him because Meben was like forty five minutes away 0:16:53.356 --> 0:16:56.836 from where we all lived. And he passed on his 0:16:56.836 --> 0:17:00.236 family's tradition to us, you know. So he lived to 0:17:00.276 --> 0:17:04.356 be ninety two and We're incredibly lucky to have had 0:17:04.436 --> 0:17:07.436 him because I found out later through the work of 0:17:07.476 --> 0:17:11.756 John Jeremiah Sullivan, that he is the musical descendant of 0:17:12.436 --> 0:17:16.676 Frank Johnson, who was a very famous blackstring band musician 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:20.956 from the eighteen hundreds and bought himself out of slavery 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:23.716 with his fiddle. And there's been an oral tradition that's 0:17:23.716 --> 0:17:26.876 been passed down from Frank Johnson to Joe, not to us. 0:17:27.676 --> 0:17:32.836 So it's just to have that connection to the once vast, 0:17:33.676 --> 0:17:38.756 incredibly influential, super important black string band tradition that's now 0:17:38.756 --> 0:17:44.316 almost completely gone. Is you know, I sometimes like hyperventilate 0:17:44.356 --> 0:17:47.716 a little bit to myself when I think about, like 0:17:47.756 --> 0:17:51.196 how closely word to missing, you know, having a living 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:55.116 connection to that. So I feel the responsibility and the 0:17:55.156 --> 0:17:58.436 importance of that quite a lot. And so anytime there's 0:17:58.436 --> 0:18:02.476 an opportunity to include one of his songs or to 0:18:02.556 --> 0:18:04.916 be able to talk about him. And now when in particular, 0:18:04.996 --> 0:18:09.876 I had quoted when I wrote a song earlier this 0:18:10.236 --> 0:18:13.036 what was last year? I wrote it around juneteenth and 0:18:13.076 --> 0:18:16.076 I performed it with Yo Yo Ma and I did 0:18:16.076 --> 0:18:19.356 a performance of it, a little video of it. It's 0:18:19.356 --> 0:18:23.036 called Build a house, and it's just, you know, kind 0:18:23.076 --> 0:18:26.556 of lamenting about the idea of that. You know, African 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:29.916 Americans were like brought to the United States, built so 0:18:30.036 --> 0:18:33.356 much of the United States, and then continuously are just 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:36.756 seems that people just want us gone, you know, and 0:18:36.796 --> 0:18:39.916 it's just like, yeah, I don't know, it's just I 0:18:39.996 --> 0:18:45.276 was just really despairing of everything, and I wrote this song, 0:18:45.276 --> 0:18:47.436 and at the very end it says, you know, I 0:18:47.476 --> 0:18:50.076 will not be moved. You know, you brought me here 0:18:50.076 --> 0:18:52.756 to build your house. I built the house. I wrote 0:18:52.756 --> 0:18:54.876 my own house. You burned it down. I wrote my song. 0:18:54.996 --> 0:18:57.476 You took the song. But you know what, my well, 0:18:57.916 --> 0:18:59.956 my well will never run dry. And I will not 0:19:00.036 --> 0:19:03.236 be moved. You know. It's a direct quote from not 0:19:03.476 --> 0:19:05.476 just I shall not be moved, but from Joe. 0:19:06.436 --> 0:19:11.276 Was there something idiosyncratic or very particular about the way 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:15.836 he and his family played this music, because it's you know, 0:19:15.916 --> 0:19:18.156 not all fiddlers are the same. Things can be very local. 0:19:18.196 --> 0:19:20.156 Are there things you learned from him that you just 0:19:20.236 --> 0:19:23.636 wouldn't have learned technically from other fiddlers? 0:19:23.876 --> 0:19:25.996 Yeah, when you know, all three of us were just 0:19:26.116 --> 0:19:28.356 learning old time music when we started playing with Joe, 0:19:28.396 --> 0:19:31.836 so everything that I learn, everything that I play now 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:35.236 is inflected by playing with Joe and with kind of 0:19:35.276 --> 0:19:38.716 absorbing that, and it's very rhythmic, it's very I learned 0:19:38.796 --> 0:19:42.236 a Joe could do more with like six notes. You know, 0:19:42.916 --> 0:19:45.036 a lot of people get DoD with twenty five. I mean, 0:19:45.076 --> 0:19:49.796 he just kind of an effortless being in the groove 0:19:50.116 --> 0:19:52.516 with the groove. You know, there's something about being a 0:19:52.556 --> 0:19:57.516 dance musician that you just cannot fake, you know, and 0:19:57.556 --> 0:20:01.036 we have you know, I played for dances, and so 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:03.196 it does, it does affect everything that I do, and 0:20:03.716 --> 0:20:07.516 the and also the way he's sang. So when I'm singing, 0:20:08.276 --> 0:20:11.036 he had a beautiful voice and it just kind of 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:15.956 came out of him in this way, and so that 0:20:16.036 --> 0:20:19.956 affects how I sing these kind of songs too. And 0:20:19.996 --> 0:20:22.996 then in this particular song, the way he I did 0:20:22.996 --> 0:20:24.356 it the way he does it, which you know, he 0:20:24.396 --> 0:20:27.116 didn't put a space in between the end of one 0:20:27.196 --> 0:20:29.996 verse in the beginning of the next, So it's not 0:20:30.036 --> 0:20:30.596 like it's. 0:20:31.076 --> 0:20:40.836 A shall not shall not be moved, ah, shall not 0:20:42.236 --> 0:20:48.636 shall not be moved Like a tree. 0:20:47.156 --> 0:20:53.196 Planet bird he would do that. 0:20:56.796 --> 0:21:01.836 Shall not be moved. Climbing Jacob right, so there's no space. 0:21:01.876 --> 0:21:06.436 It's not Ah shall not be moved. 0:21:08.236 --> 0:21:11.636 Climbing ja That's what you know, that's what we usually do, right, 0:21:11.636 --> 0:21:13.156 you have the ending and then the beginning of the 0:21:13.196 --> 0:21:15.476 next thing. But there's something about that, you know. 0:21:15.516 --> 0:21:23.716 Ah shall not be moved climbing Jacobs, let shall not 0:21:24.636 --> 0:21:26.156 you know, there's something about that. 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:27.116