1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,356 --> 00:00:23,316 Speaker 2: Hey there, We're halfway through Black History Month now, and 3 00:00:23,436 --> 00:00:25,716 Speaker 2: although we didn't intend to rerun some of our older 4 00:00:25,756 --> 00:00:29,516 Speaker 2: conversations to celebrate the month, after realizing we needed to 5 00:00:29,556 --> 00:00:32,236 Speaker 2: do something to mark Usher's super Bowl performance and the 6 00:00:32,276 --> 00:00:35,076 Speaker 2: release of the new Bob Marley biopick One Loove, we 7 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:37,116 Speaker 2: figured we might as well keep going and celebrate the 8 00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:40,196 Speaker 2: whole month long, because now we have a country album 9 00:00:40,356 --> 00:00:44,716 Speaker 2: from Beyonce on the way. Beyonce released two songs from 10 00:00:44,716 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 2: her upcoming album the Night of the super Bowl, Sixteen 11 00:00:47,316 --> 00:00:51,316 Speaker 2: Carriages and Texas Hold Them, to a rapturous response. Not 12 00:00:51,356 --> 00:00:53,836 Speaker 2: only are the songs good, but they sparked a lot 13 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:57,356 Speaker 2: of meaningful conversations about the usefulness of genres, the way 14 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 2: marketing shapes are listening and gatekeeping and music. Those are 15 00:01:01,316 --> 00:01:03,956 Speaker 2: all things very close to Rhann and Giddon's heart. As 16 00:01:03,996 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 2: a black banjo player steeped in the American tradition and 17 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:11,876 Speaker 2: its Transatlantic roots, She's been living this conversation her whole career. 18 00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:14,996 Speaker 2: Randon also happens to play on the song Texas Hold 19 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:17,596 Speaker 2: Them with Beyonce, which just this week hit number one 20 00:01:17,596 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 2: on the country chart, the first time a black woman 21 00:01:19,876 --> 00:01:23,076 Speaker 2: has ever held that spot. She also played on sixteen 22 00:01:23,076 --> 00:01:26,116 Speaker 2: carriages too. So let's flash back to when we had 23 00:01:26,196 --> 00:01:28,836 Speaker 2: Rann an unbroken record back in twenty twenty one to 24 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:31,996 Speaker 2: speak with Bruce Headlam about her album They're calling Me Home. 25 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:38,396 Speaker 2: This is broken record liner notes for the digital Age. 26 00:01:38,556 --> 00:01:39,476 Speaker 1: I'm justin Ritchman. 27 00:01:40,556 --> 00:01:43,956 Speaker 2: Here's Bruce Headlam with Ryann and Giddens from twenty twenty one. 28 00:01:44,956 --> 00:01:47,556 Speaker 3: Thank you, first of all, so much for doing this. 29 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:51,516 Speaker 3: We're talking about your new album and your last album 30 00:01:51,556 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 3: and anything else you want to talk about your ballet. 31 00:01:54,636 --> 00:01:55,756 Speaker 3: You wrote a ballet too. 32 00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:56,036 Speaker 1: Didn't you. 33 00:01:56,556 --> 00:01:58,996 Speaker 4: Yeah, I wrote a ballet an opera. 34 00:01:59,396 --> 00:02:00,876 Speaker 1: I didn't know about the opera. What was that? 35 00:02:01,676 --> 00:02:02,316 Speaker 2: Well, it was. 36 00:02:02,316 --> 00:02:04,076 Speaker 4: Opposed to debut last year, and then it was going 37 00:02:04,116 --> 00:02:05,556 Speaker 4: to debut this year, and I was going to debut 38 00:02:05,676 --> 00:02:09,956 Speaker 4: next year. But yeah, it's called Omar. It's for Leo Festival, 39 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:14,796 Speaker 4: and it's about Omari. Vin Said, who was a Quranic 40 00:02:14,876 --> 00:02:19,756 Speaker 4: scholar thirty seven years old, captured, sold from Senegal, brought 41 00:02:19,796 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 4: over on the Middle Passage and ended up enslaved for 42 00:02:24,236 --> 00:02:26,916 Speaker 4: fifty years until his death in North Carolina. He wrote 43 00:02:26,956 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 4: his autobiography in Arabic. 44 00:02:28,556 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 1: Wow that sounds incredible. 45 00:02:30,716 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just there's a lot of a lot of 46 00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:36,476 Speaker 4: stories within that one story. So yeah, you know, this 47 00:02:36,636 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 4: new record is almost all you know, old material, traditional 48 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:45,116 Speaker 4: traditional songs or songs that were written you know, in 49 00:02:45,156 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 4: that style, but are recent and all of my original 50 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:50,996 Speaker 4: material has been gone into an opera the last couple 51 00:02:51,076 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 4: of years. So I was like, well, hopefully people will 52 00:02:54,716 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 4: be okay, there's it's not an original record. But you know, 53 00:02:58,716 --> 00:02:59,556 Speaker 4: it's like, it's never. 54 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:01,516 Speaker 1: Been my bag anyway writing stuff. 55 00:03:01,916 --> 00:03:04,116 Speaker 4: Well, it's not, it's not my it's not never been 56 00:03:04,116 --> 00:03:07,396 Speaker 4: my focus. Like, if the story is told best through 57 00:03:07,436 --> 00:03:10,476 Speaker 4: an original song, I'll do it. But I was an 58 00:03:10,516 --> 00:03:13,156 Speaker 4: interpreter for years before I ever thought about writing songs. 59 00:03:13,396 --> 00:03:16,156 Speaker 4: So I'm never sitting down going Okay, I need to 60 00:03:16,156 --> 00:03:19,356 Speaker 4: write a new album. It's like, if there's no inspiration 61 00:03:19,476 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 4: to write the song, and there often isn't because it's 62 00:03:23,196 --> 00:03:26,316 Speaker 4: just there's so many great songs out there already, there's 63 00:03:26,356 --> 00:03:29,156 Speaker 4: so much great music, so it has to be something. 64 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 4: Really I feel like I can tell in a way 65 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:35,876 Speaker 4: that's you know, specific to me. That means, you know, 66 00:03:35,916 --> 00:03:37,676 Speaker 4: I'm just not gonna write for the sake of writing. 67 00:03:38,076 --> 00:03:40,036 Speaker 3: Was it hard for you to start writing having been 68 00:03:40,076 --> 00:03:41,636 Speaker 3: an interpreter for so long. 69 00:03:42,596 --> 00:03:45,916 Speaker 4: No, because I you know, I don't really write about myself. 70 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:49,476 Speaker 4: I've only written a couple of songs from my points 71 00:03:49,476 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 4: of view, and they're not on any of my records. 72 00:03:53,796 --> 00:03:57,636 Speaker 4: You know, I write from a cultural point of view, 73 00:03:57,676 --> 00:04:00,156 Speaker 4: from other people's point of view, and those are the 74 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 4: songs that, you know, when they started to come out, 75 00:04:02,916 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 4: it was those kind of songs like Julie, like at 76 00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:08,716 Speaker 4: the Purchaser's option, like you know, he's very specific, trying 77 00:04:08,756 --> 00:04:12,996 Speaker 4: to highlight like black and mostly female voices. You know 78 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:15,036 Speaker 4: that I feel like need to be highlighted, and a 79 00:04:15,036 --> 00:04:18,916 Speaker 4: lot of times they come through as real spiritual kind 80 00:04:18,956 --> 00:04:23,316 Speaker 4: of events, you know. I mean I have written songs 81 00:04:23,396 --> 00:04:26,756 Speaker 4: like I wrote usually with partners, like with people like 82 00:04:26,836 --> 00:04:30,196 Speaker 4: I wrote all of my most of my Nashville songs 83 00:04:30,236 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 4: with my songwriting partner from Louisiana, Derk Powell. You know 84 00:04:34,876 --> 00:04:37,796 Speaker 4: that I could do. I was like, okay, like I 85 00:04:37,836 --> 00:04:41,436 Speaker 4: can co write songs that I'm not connected to, like 86 00:04:41,476 --> 00:04:44,356 Speaker 4: in a cultural way, you know, but just coming for me. 87 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:48,636 Speaker 4: I did one for NPR. It was like songs you know, 88 00:04:48,796 --> 00:04:51,356 Speaker 4: coming out of the experiences of Lockdown, and it was 89 00:04:51,676 --> 00:04:56,756 Speaker 4: I found it very torturous. Like, yeah, I was just like, 90 00:04:57,596 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 4: who cares about what I'm feeling? Like, it's my feelings, 91 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:07,276 Speaker 4: and really, my life's not that bad. What's what do 92 00:05:07,316 --> 00:05:09,796 Speaker 4: I need to say here? It was very It was 93 00:05:09,836 --> 00:05:12,476 Speaker 4: a very interesting thing, and it just solidified what I 94 00:05:12,556 --> 00:05:13,516 Speaker 4: do and what I don't do. 95 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:17,516 Speaker 3: That's a very funny thing for an artist to say, though, 96 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 3: who cares what I'm feeling? 97 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 4: Well, I feel like everybody makes their art in the 98 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 4: way that makes sense to them, and for me, I 99 00:05:27,196 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 4: am the least important and interesting thing in what I do. 100 00:05:32,276 --> 00:05:34,876 Speaker 4: You know, and I know that there's amazing songs out 101 00:05:34,916 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 4: there that have come out of people's experiences that have 102 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:39,756 Speaker 4: made a great difference to people. And you know, I've 103 00:05:39,836 --> 00:05:42,636 Speaker 4: enjoyed some of those songs, and it's a totally valid 104 00:05:42,636 --> 00:05:44,356 Speaker 4: way to go. It's just not my way. 105 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:46,956 Speaker 3: Your new album is great, it's coming out in a 106 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 3: little while, So tell me about making this album. 107 00:05:50,596 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 4: You know, everybody has had to adjust to this pandemic, 108 00:05:54,756 --> 00:05:58,916 Speaker 4: like and I say, like, there's just such huge differences 109 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:02,756 Speaker 4: between how you know, people who are comfortably off well 110 00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:07,956 Speaker 4: off and people who aren't have had a pandemic. You know, 111 00:06:07,996 --> 00:06:10,236 Speaker 4: there's been people who've never had to stop working and 112 00:06:10,276 --> 00:06:12,876 Speaker 4: interacting with people because they're on front lines or their 113 00:06:12,916 --> 00:06:16,076 Speaker 4: service industry or anything. You know, they needed the paycheck, 114 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:18,556 Speaker 4: and people who could just kind of hold up in 115 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:21,796 Speaker 4: their houses for a year. And there's detrimental things to 116 00:06:21,836 --> 00:06:24,636 Speaker 4: all of it. But I just say all of it 117 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:28,796 Speaker 4: with an acknowledgement of privilege. You know, I think it's 118 00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:33,556 Speaker 4: very important to do that, but to say that in general, 119 00:06:33,956 --> 00:06:38,356 Speaker 4: you know, artists, musicians, there's an additional difficulty you know, 120 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:41,796 Speaker 4: with in that are very work. It's like we're like 121 00:06:41,836 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 4: the restaurant industry, you know, it's like our very work 122 00:06:44,116 --> 00:06:47,756 Speaker 4: involves people. You know, we can't just not work in 123 00:06:47,756 --> 00:06:50,316 Speaker 4: an office and work at home and do emails like 124 00:06:51,236 --> 00:06:54,156 Speaker 4: it's so that's been really hard. And then I just 125 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:58,356 Speaker 4: got the idea. We've been playing these old folk songs 126 00:06:58,356 --> 00:07:01,236 Speaker 4: that were you know, they were just kind of cropping up. 127 00:07:01,356 --> 00:07:04,156 Speaker 4: You know, I was just finding myself, you know, sit down, 128 00:07:04,156 --> 00:07:06,156 Speaker 4: we sit down with our instruments, and I just start singing. 129 00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 4: And I just said, well, let's just start singing these. 130 00:07:08,676 --> 00:07:10,836 Speaker 4: Let's just doing these in the stream. You know, this 131 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:14,436 Speaker 4: is my partner Francesco, and it was like night and day. 132 00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:16,996 Speaker 4: It was like, oh my gosh, these songs have never 133 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 4: been on stage, and we're doing them because we're connecting 134 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:22,996 Speaker 4: to them right now. And I said, let's just run 135 00:07:23,036 --> 00:07:25,756 Speaker 4: into the studio and record these. I'm just feeling them 136 00:07:25,836 --> 00:07:26,276 Speaker 4: right now. 137 00:07:26,596 --> 00:07:30,796 Speaker 3: How did your situation isolation, how did they inform the 138 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:31,716 Speaker 3: choice of songs? 139 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:36,556 Speaker 4: Well, these songs, the songs that were coming up, I 140 00:07:36,556 --> 00:07:39,636 Speaker 4: mean were ones I hadn't done in a long time. 141 00:07:39,996 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 4: You know, a couple of them pre date the Carolina 142 00:07:42,116 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 4: chocol Drops days, Like it was just when I was 143 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:46,956 Speaker 4: just getting into old time music and I think, you know, 144 00:07:46,996 --> 00:07:49,156 Speaker 4: and the Italian ones were you know, they're ones that 145 00:07:49,236 --> 00:07:51,836 Speaker 4: Francesco is known for a very long time. The two 146 00:07:51,916 --> 00:07:54,196 Speaker 4: main themes of the record are like home and death. 147 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:57,476 Speaker 4: So we're like surrounded by death every day. It's how 148 00:07:57,476 --> 00:08:01,156 Speaker 4: many people have died, like literally the news every day. 149 00:08:01,436 --> 00:08:03,316 Speaker 4: And then we're like, how many people have died in Italy? 150 00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:04,836 Speaker 4: How many people have died in the US, how many 151 00:08:04,836 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 4: people have died in North Carolina? Are my parents going 152 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:08,636 Speaker 4: to die? Are we even going to be able to 153 00:08:08,636 --> 00:08:08,916 Speaker 4: go home? 154 00:08:08,956 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 1: You know? 155 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 4: It's just like all the stuff that everybody's been dealing with. 156 00:08:13,356 --> 00:08:16,036 Speaker 4: But like that's in the air all the time. So 157 00:08:16,116 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 4: these you know, stuff like oh, death just comes up 158 00:08:19,836 --> 00:08:23,236 Speaker 4: and the idea of not being able to go home. 159 00:08:23,676 --> 00:08:28,676 Speaker 4: And so these songs are not just any songs, but 160 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 4: there's songs when I was really coming into my own 161 00:08:33,956 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 4: as as identifying as a North Carolinian, you know, like 162 00:08:38,516 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 4: for me as a mixed person, multiracial, but like there's 163 00:08:43,116 --> 00:08:45,036 Speaker 4: no there was no space for that. When I was 164 00:08:45,036 --> 00:08:47,996 Speaker 4: a kid. It was like black, white, and other, and 165 00:08:48,036 --> 00:08:50,716 Speaker 4: you had to check a box. And it's just I 166 00:08:50,756 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 4: had this existential dilemma every time I filled out a form. 167 00:08:54,596 --> 00:08:58,396 Speaker 3: Did you fill it out differently? At different times I did. 168 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:01,756 Speaker 4: Sometimes I fill all the boxes in. It depended on 169 00:09:02,876 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 4: how much in trouble I would get if I you know, 170 00:09:04,756 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 4: so it was like the sat or something I liked. 171 00:09:07,196 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 4: You know, I've put it black because I I talked 172 00:09:09,636 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 4: to my mom about it, and she's just like, look, 173 00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:14,036 Speaker 4: you know, for all intents and purposes, in this country, 174 00:09:14,076 --> 00:09:16,356 Speaker 4: you're considered black. So that's what you put down, you know. 175 00:09:16,596 --> 00:09:18,676 Speaker 4: But you know, I circle that in. I think of 176 00:09:18,756 --> 00:09:20,676 Speaker 4: my dad, who's white, you know, and I'm just like 177 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:23,156 Speaker 4: and Back then, I didn't understand the nuance of the 178 00:09:23,156 --> 00:09:25,196 Speaker 4: one drop rule and the history and all that stuff. 179 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 4: All I knew is this doesn't feel right to me. 180 00:09:27,636 --> 00:09:30,836 Speaker 4: You know, neither one feels right. So when I started 181 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 4: finding the music of the root music of North Carolina 182 00:09:34,596 --> 00:09:37,676 Speaker 4: in my early twenties, that's when I started going, oh, 183 00:09:37,676 --> 00:09:40,236 Speaker 4: I know, I know what I am like. Forget the color, 184 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 4: I'm just like North Carolinian. And it really tied me 185 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:48,716 Speaker 4: to a sense of belonging in a sense. Even I 186 00:09:49,036 --> 00:09:51,356 Speaker 4: was like, I've been living in North Carolina my whole life, 187 00:09:51,396 --> 00:09:53,636 Speaker 4: other than college, and but all of a sudden, I 188 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:55,836 Speaker 4: felt like, oh, okay, ida what that means? And I 189 00:09:55,876 --> 00:09:58,476 Speaker 4: found that through the music. So when I sing these songs, 190 00:09:58,796 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 4: it takes me back to that feeling of belonging, you know, 191 00:10:02,236 --> 00:10:05,676 Speaker 4: at home. It's it's interesting, it's just like stuff I 192 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:10,476 Speaker 4: would have never thought about recording ever, and they're coming 193 00:10:10,556 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 4: up and just like seeing me like, Okay. 194 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:15,596 Speaker 3: What's an example of one of the first songs that 195 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:17,596 Speaker 3: occurred to you that you should you should put in 196 00:10:17,636 --> 00:10:18,676 Speaker 3: this album for that reason? 197 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 4: Well, like you know, Blackish Crow came up, and that 198 00:10:23,556 --> 00:10:26,676 Speaker 4: that's what was one of the first old time tunes 199 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:29,716 Speaker 4: I ever learned. I still remember learning it from Steve 200 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:32,076 Speaker 4: Terrell wrote it. I wrote the words down like he's 201 00:10:32,116 --> 00:10:34,716 Speaker 4: a kind of a Stalhart in the old time community 202 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 4: in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I'm just thinking it was 203 00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:42,476 Speaker 4: so beautiful. And then in and of itself, it's dealing 204 00:10:42,556 --> 00:10:47,476 Speaker 4: with being separated from your loved one, and you know, 205 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 4: I wish that I was going with you or you 206 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:51,956 Speaker 4: were staying here, you know, and especially in the beginning 207 00:10:51,996 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 4: of the pandemic. You know, Francesco and I we don't 208 00:10:55,596 --> 00:10:58,276 Speaker 4: live together because we have children who go to school 209 00:10:58,316 --> 00:11:01,716 Speaker 4: in different cities, so we live where they live, and 210 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,236 Speaker 4: it's two and a half hours apart. So there were 211 00:11:04,236 --> 00:11:06,996 Speaker 4: times when we were locked down, like it was serious lockdown, 212 00:11:07,036 --> 00:11:09,476 Speaker 4: and like we didn't even couldn't even go see each other. 213 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:12,476 Speaker 4: So it's just like all of those thoughts in thinking 214 00:11:12,516 --> 00:11:16,076 Speaker 4: about people who were separated, you know, continents, separated from 215 00:11:16,116 --> 00:11:19,276 Speaker 4: their loved ones and not able to go see them, 216 00:11:18,556 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 4: and you know, and there's a lot of songs about that. 217 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 4: Because we haven't always been able to travel as easily 218 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 4: as as we do now. That just came up and 219 00:11:26,996 --> 00:11:31,836 Speaker 4: then it's like the combination of taking this really old 220 00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:34,476 Speaker 4: song and feeling like, so it's an old song on 221 00:11:34,516 --> 00:11:36,596 Speaker 4: its own, so it just has this connection, this kind 222 00:11:36,596 --> 00:11:40,756 Speaker 4: of deep connection right to humanity. And then it's got 223 00:11:40,756 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 4: this additional connection that I have, you know, as a 224 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:46,796 Speaker 4: North Carolinian, feeling like a North Carolinian missing North Carolina. 225 00:11:47,836 --> 00:11:51,476 Speaker 4: And then we're doing it in a way that would 226 00:11:51,516 --> 00:11:54,316 Speaker 4: never be done back home, you know, the way that 227 00:11:54,356 --> 00:11:59,516 Speaker 4: Francisco plays the cello banjo, which was originally owned by 228 00:11:59,556 --> 00:12:04,876 Speaker 4: Mike Seeger. Yeah, because I knew him and his widow 229 00:12:05,396 --> 00:12:09,556 Speaker 4: when he died, Alexia made sure that his vast music collection. 230 00:12:09,836 --> 00:12:13,196 Speaker 4: She let people that he knew and who knew him 231 00:12:13,596 --> 00:12:17,996 Speaker 4: first come pick instruments to buy to be passed on to. 232 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:21,276 Speaker 4: And so I picked that in a beautiful little banjo, 233 00:12:21,676 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 4: and that teleo banjo had been sitting in my house 234 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:27,436 Speaker 4: like I'd never played it. I didn't know why I 235 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:29,756 Speaker 4: bought it, you know, but I just love the sound 236 00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:32,836 Speaker 4: of it, beautiful shape. He put these strings on it, It 237 00:12:32,956 --> 00:12:35,796 Speaker 4: just made it sound like a lute. And then Francesco 238 00:12:35,916 --> 00:12:37,476 Speaker 4: came to my house and picked it up and started 239 00:12:37,476 --> 00:12:39,476 Speaker 4: playing it, and I was like, well, that's why I 240 00:12:39,476 --> 00:12:39,836 Speaker 4: bought it. 241 00:12:40,116 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 1: There you go. 242 00:12:40,916 --> 00:12:44,236 Speaker 4: Yeah, and so that's all over the record, that banjo sound, 243 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:47,956 Speaker 4: what we found, that banjo and my viola. So it's 244 00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:49,996 Speaker 4: just like there's a lot wrapped up in that. And 245 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 4: then emer is bringing in Ireland with the flute, the 246 00:12:53,316 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 4: Irish flute, and so it was just a really I 247 00:12:56,956 --> 00:12:59,676 Speaker 4: felt so fortunate to be able to have been able 248 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:00,716 Speaker 4: to have that time. 249 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:02,956 Speaker 1: You're in Ireland now right. 250 00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 4: Been in Ireland since last March. We came from Australia. 251 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:09,636 Speaker 3: What's it like now to observe because you are in 252 00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:13,036 Speaker 3: North Carolinian you're an American. What's it like to be 253 00:13:13,596 --> 00:13:15,876 Speaker 3: out of the United States for now a year? Which 254 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:17,316 Speaker 3: is probably what you didn't expect. 255 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:23,156 Speaker 4: I didn't know it. It has been hard, it's been weird. 256 00:13:23,556 --> 00:13:25,756 Speaker 3: It's part of it a little easier, you know. I'm 257 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:29,076 Speaker 3: thinking of people like Baldwin who who found life abroad. 258 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:31,596 Speaker 3: It relieved them of something. 259 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:35,356 Speaker 4: Well in normal days. Yes, it was kind of a 260 00:13:35,396 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 4: breath of fresh air to come to Ireland, you know, 261 00:13:37,316 --> 00:13:40,716 Speaker 4: because this is my work. Like when all the stuff 262 00:13:40,756 --> 00:13:43,716 Speaker 4: went down the way it went down last year, you know, 263 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 4: people were calling me up and asking my opinion about 264 00:13:45,956 --> 00:13:47,956 Speaker 4: stuff I was like, my opinion has not changed. I've 265 00:13:47,956 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 4: been talking about this for fifteen years. 266 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:49,876 Speaker 1: Go away. 267 00:13:50,836 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 4: You know. It's just like I'm not surprised by any 268 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:57,636 Speaker 4: of this, you know, But in the before times, you know, 269 00:13:58,076 --> 00:14:01,076 Speaker 4: I would be on the road talking about minstrel shows, 270 00:14:01,356 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 4: coon songs, slavery every night and my you know, interviews, 271 00:14:05,836 --> 00:14:07,796 Speaker 4: blah blah blah, doing this, doing that, And then I'd 272 00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:09,396 Speaker 4: come back to Ireland and just kind of take a 273 00:14:09,436 --> 00:14:13,636 Speaker 4: deep breath, and it's not you know that the specter 274 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:15,716 Speaker 4: of that. I mean, they have other issues here, but 275 00:14:16,156 --> 00:14:18,196 Speaker 4: the specter of that is not here. And I do 276 00:14:18,356 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 4: I definitely understand that of just being away from it 277 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:24,556 Speaker 4: when it is your work, but that again, is different 278 00:14:25,036 --> 00:14:29,516 Speaker 4: all together than being completely unable to go back to 279 00:14:29,556 --> 00:14:31,476 Speaker 4: the well and then when all the stuff is going 280 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:33,596 Speaker 4: on and people are protesting and I'm just like I 281 00:14:33,676 --> 00:14:36,156 Speaker 4: have nothing to do and I can't do anything there, 282 00:14:36,756 --> 00:14:38,556 Speaker 4: you know, like all my gigs have been canceled, but 283 00:14:38,596 --> 00:14:39,396 Speaker 4: I can't even help. 284 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more from Rhianna and get 285 00:14:42,116 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 2: Ins and Bruce Headlam. After a quick break, We're back 286 00:14:49,276 --> 00:14:50,916 Speaker 2: with more from rhiann and get Ins. 287 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 3: You know, the sense of missing someone in folk music 288 00:14:55,236 --> 00:14:59,556 Speaker 3: from Africa, from Scotland, I assume from Ireland is often 289 00:14:59,556 --> 00:15:02,876 Speaker 3: about missing people across the whole ocean. That's sort of 290 00:15:02,996 --> 00:15:05,756 Speaker 3: embedded in the music. So you must have felt that 291 00:15:05,796 --> 00:15:08,556 Speaker 3: quite strongly when you were playing some of these tunes. 292 00:15:09,276 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I haven't seeing my family in over 293 00:15:11,396 --> 00:15:15,396 Speaker 4: a year, Francisco, like especially in the beginning, like Italy 294 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:18,596 Speaker 4: was hit really hard, like people were dying left and right, 295 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 4: and like he had relatives who got sick, and you know, 296 00:15:22,436 --> 00:15:25,236 Speaker 4: just the stress of like if something happens, I can't 297 00:15:25,276 --> 00:15:25,996 Speaker 4: even get there. 298 00:15:26,636 --> 00:15:28,956 Speaker 3: It comes out in funny ways in the album because 299 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:32,396 Speaker 3: your version of I Shall not be Moved, which is 300 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:36,196 Speaker 3: an old spiritual which has been adopted by the labor movement, 301 00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:39,756 Speaker 3: the civil rights movement, and maybe the words there are movements, 302 00:15:39,956 --> 00:15:43,516 Speaker 3: because suddenly it's a song about not being moved, not 303 00:15:43,596 --> 00:15:46,116 Speaker 3: being able to move. Almost were you thinking that when 304 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:47,036 Speaker 3: you were recording it. 305 00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:51,596 Speaker 4: I recorded that because for me, that was my connection 306 00:15:51,636 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 4: to Joe Thompson, who was the black fiddler from MEDVN, 307 00:15:55,356 --> 00:15:59,476 Speaker 4: North Carolina, the elder that I like learned his family's tradition. 308 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:02,036 Speaker 3: Can you explain a little bit of when you met 309 00:16:02,116 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 3: him and who he was. 310 00:16:03,876 --> 00:16:07,116 Speaker 4: Of course, Yeah, Joe Thompson was even more important than 311 00:16:07,116 --> 00:16:10,076 Speaker 4: we knew when we started going down to see him. 312 00:16:10,636 --> 00:16:14,156 Speaker 4: He was a massively important person. He was the last 313 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 4: of a family of black string band traditions. It had 314 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:20,076 Speaker 4: been passed on as a family tradition. He was part 315 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:22,236 Speaker 4: of the Thompson family band. They played for the white 316 00:16:22,276 --> 00:16:24,476 Speaker 4: and the black square dances in his area because everybody 317 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 4: used to do. This is what people don't understand, because 318 00:16:27,236 --> 00:16:28,916 Speaker 4: that's a whole other reason. There's a whole other story 319 00:16:28,916 --> 00:16:32,396 Speaker 4: why people don't know that. And he was the last 320 00:16:32,676 --> 00:16:35,116 Speaker 4: of his family to be playing this music, and nobody 321 00:16:35,156 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 4: else had picked it up. And the people he used 322 00:16:36,916 --> 00:16:38,836 Speaker 4: to play with were dead, you know, his cousin and 323 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:42,236 Speaker 4: his brother, and so he was playing with white musicians, 324 00:16:42,276 --> 00:16:45,036 Speaker 4: you know, wonderful people in the area. And then me 325 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:48,036 Speaker 4: and the other two original Carolina Chocolate drops, Tom Flemens 326 00:16:48,076 --> 00:16:51,076 Speaker 4: and Justin Robertson started going down to Meben to play 327 00:16:51,116 --> 00:16:53,356 Speaker 4: with him because Meben was like forty five minutes away 328 00:16:53,356 --> 00:16:56,836 Speaker 4: from where we all lived. And he passed on his 329 00:16:56,836 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 4: family's tradition to us, you know. So he lived to 330 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:04,356 Speaker 4: be ninety two and We're incredibly lucky to have had 331 00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:07,436 Speaker 4: him because I found out later through the work of 332 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:11,756 Speaker 4: John Jeremiah Sullivan, that he is the musical descendant of 333 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:16,676 Speaker 4: Frank Johnson, who was a very famous blackstring band musician 334 00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:20,956 Speaker 4: from the eighteen hundreds and bought himself out of slavery 335 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:23,716 Speaker 4: with his fiddle. And there's been an oral tradition that's 336 00:17:23,716 --> 00:17:26,876 Speaker 4: been passed down from Frank Johnson to Joe, not to us. 337 00:17:27,676 --> 00:17:32,836 Speaker 4: So it's just to have that connection to the once vast, 338 00:17:33,676 --> 00:17:38,756 Speaker 4: incredibly influential, super important black string band tradition that's now 339 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:44,316 Speaker 4: almost completely gone. Is you know, I sometimes like hyperventilate 340 00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:47,716 Speaker 4: a little bit to myself when I think about, like 341 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:51,196 Speaker 4: how closely word to missing, you know, having a living 342 00:17:51,196 --> 00:17:55,116 Speaker 4: connection to that. So I feel the responsibility and the 343 00:17:55,156 --> 00:17:58,436 Speaker 4: importance of that quite a lot. And so anytime there's 344 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 4: an opportunity to include one of his songs or to 345 00:18:02,556 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 4: be able to talk about him. And now when in particular, 346 00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:09,876 Speaker 4: I had quoted when I wrote a song earlier this 347 00:18:10,236 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 4: what was last year? I wrote it around juneteenth and 348 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:16,076 Speaker 4: I performed it with Yo Yo Ma and I did 349 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:19,356 Speaker 4: a performance of it, a little video of it. It's 350 00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:23,036 Speaker 4: called Build a house, and it's just, you know, kind 351 00:18:23,076 --> 00:18:26,556 Speaker 4: of lamenting about the idea of that. You know, African 352 00:18:26,556 --> 00:18:29,916 Speaker 4: Americans were like brought to the United States, built so 353 00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:33,356 Speaker 4: much of the United States, and then continuously are just 354 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 4: seems that people just want us gone, you know, and 355 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:39,916 Speaker 4: it's just like, yeah, I don't know, it's just I 356 00:18:39,996 --> 00:18:45,276 Speaker 4: was just really despairing of everything, and I wrote this song, 357 00:18:45,276 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 4: and at the very end it says, you know, I 358 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:50,076 Speaker 4: will not be moved. You know, you brought me here 359 00:18:50,076 --> 00:18:52,756 Speaker 4: to build your house. I built the house. I wrote 360 00:18:52,756 --> 00:18:54,876 Speaker 4: my own house. You burned it down. I wrote my song. 361 00:18:54,996 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 4: You took the song. But you know what, my well, 362 00:18:57,916 --> 00:18:59,956 Speaker 4: my well will never run dry. And I will not 363 00:19:00,036 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 4: be moved. You know. It's a direct quote from not 364 00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:05,476 Speaker 4: just I shall not be moved, but from Joe. 365 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 3: Was there something idiosyncratic or very particular about the way 366 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:15,836 Speaker 3: he and his family played this music, because it's you know, 367 00:19:15,916 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 3: not all fiddlers are the same. Things can be very local. 368 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 3: Are there things you learned from him that you just 369 00:19:20,236 --> 00:19:23,636 Speaker 3: wouldn't have learned technically from other fiddlers? 370 00:19:23,876 --> 00:19:25,996 Speaker 4: Yeah, when you know, all three of us were just 371 00:19:26,116 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 4: learning old time music when we started playing with Joe, 372 00:19:28,396 --> 00:19:31,836 Speaker 4: so everything that I learn, everything that I play now 373 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 4: is inflected by playing with Joe and with kind of 374 00:19:35,276 --> 00:19:38,716 Speaker 4: absorbing that, and it's very rhythmic, it's very I learned 375 00:19:38,796 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 4: a Joe could do more with like six notes. You know, 376 00:19:42,916 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 4: a lot of people get DoD with twenty five. I mean, 377 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:49,796 Speaker 4: he just kind of an effortless being in the groove 378 00:19:50,116 --> 00:19:52,516 Speaker 4: with the groove. You know, there's something about being a 379 00:19:52,556 --> 00:19:57,516 Speaker 4: dance musician that you just cannot fake, you know, and 380 00:19:57,556 --> 00:20:01,036 Speaker 4: we have you know, I played for dances, and so 381 00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:03,196 Speaker 4: it does, it does affect everything that I do, and 382 00:20:03,716 --> 00:20:07,516 Speaker 4: the and also the way he's sang. So when I'm singing, 383 00:20:08,276 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 4: he had a beautiful voice and it just kind of 384 00:20:11,076 --> 00:20:15,956 Speaker 4: came out of him in this way, and so that 385 00:20:16,036 --> 00:20:19,956 Speaker 4: affects how I sing these kind of songs too. And 386 00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:22,996 Speaker 4: then in this particular song, the way he I did 387 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:24,356 Speaker 4: it the way he does it, which you know, he 388 00:20:24,396 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 4: didn't put a space in between the end of one 389 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:29,996 Speaker 4: verse in the beginning of the next, So it's not 390 00:20:30,036 --> 00:20:30,596 Speaker 4: like it's. 391 00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 5: A shall not shall not be moved, ah, shall not 392 00:20:42,236 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 5: shall not be moved Like a tree. 393 00:20:47,156 --> 00:20:53,196 Speaker 4: Planet bird he would do that. 394 00:20:56,796 --> 00:21:01,836 Speaker 6: Shall not be moved. Climbing Jacob right, so there's no space. 395 00:21:01,876 --> 00:21:06,436 Speaker 6: It's not Ah shall not be moved. 396 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:11,636 Speaker 4: Climbing ja That's what you know, that's what we usually do, right, 397 00:21:11,636 --> 00:21:13,156 Speaker 4: you have the ending and then the beginning of the 398 00:21:13,196 --> 00:21:15,476 Speaker 4: next thing. But there's something about that, you know. 399 00:21:15,516 --> 00:21:23,716 Speaker 7: Ah shall not be moved climbing Jacobs, let shall not 400 00:21:24,636 --> 00:21:26,156 Speaker 7: you know, there's something about that. 401 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:27,116 Speaker 5: You know. 402 00:21:27,356 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 4: It's very simple. But the thing that you you got 403 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:34,436 Speaker 4: from Joe was that it never ended. 404 00:21:35,236 --> 00:21:35,436 Speaker 1: You know. 405 00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 4: It was just like this rolling river of sound and 406 00:21:37,596 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 4: he would just kind of dip his foot in it 407 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:40,756 Speaker 4: and then take his foot out. 408 00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:43,276 Speaker 3: Does that come out of playing for dances? That that 409 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:44,876 Speaker 3: idea that you just keep going? 410 00:21:45,596 --> 00:21:47,316 Speaker 4: I think it comes out of playing for dances. I 411 00:21:47,316 --> 00:21:50,596 Speaker 4: think it comes out of just being saturated in that music. 412 00:21:51,316 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 4: Him and other old timers, you know who they're they're gone, 413 00:21:57,356 --> 00:22:01,956 Speaker 4: that life is over. He was born into a community 414 00:22:02,636 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 4: and he died in that community, and he had a 415 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 4: function in that community. There was no thought to it. 416 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:10,596 Speaker 4: It was just like my you know, daddy played fiddle, 417 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 4: and then I played fiddle, and you know I played 418 00:22:12,556 --> 00:22:14,316 Speaker 4: with my brother and as soon as we were old enough, 419 00:22:14,356 --> 00:22:17,316 Speaker 4: we took over the dances. You know, he became a performer, 420 00:22:17,556 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 4: but he was a function musician. He was a community musician, 421 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 4: and it was music that he grew up doing. And 422 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:28,076 Speaker 4: that's that's a special thing. And I would never pretend 423 00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:30,076 Speaker 4: like that's what I do. 424 00:22:30,076 --> 00:22:32,556 Speaker 3: Do you think that kind of world can exist, can 425 00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 3: coexist in the world as it is now? Not everybody's 426 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:38,396 Speaker 3: waiting for the dance on Friday night. It's not a 427 00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:41,876 Speaker 3: necessary tradition the way it probably was for many people. 428 00:22:42,476 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 4: Oh sure, I mean that was the entertainment. I mean, 429 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:47,636 Speaker 4: the reason why it died is because TV came. I mean, 430 00:22:47,676 --> 00:22:50,396 Speaker 4: as unfortunately TV is a is a great culture killer. 431 00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:52,556 Speaker 4: It's just this kind of stuff. I mean, it's not 432 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:55,236 Speaker 4: to say that stuff didn't survive. That it did. Obviously 433 00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:58,636 Speaker 4: Joe could still play and sing, But it wasn't it 434 00:22:58,756 --> 00:23:01,436 Speaker 4: changed function that music changed. It was then it became 435 00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:05,276 Speaker 4: performance music for a ticket price and mostly white people 436 00:23:05,316 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 4: and the audience and all this kind of stuff. And 437 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 4: that's just it just changed. And it doesn't mean that 438 00:23:10,596 --> 00:23:14,356 Speaker 4: it's not as good or doesn't need to be done. 439 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:15,236 Speaker 4: It's just different. 440 00:23:15,796 --> 00:23:20,996 Speaker 3: Tell me why, particularly the black history of string bands 441 00:23:21,076 --> 00:23:27,596 Speaker 3: and country music hasn't survived or isn't widely known because 442 00:23:27,676 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 3: that's you know, and many people, you know, they look 443 00:23:30,516 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 3: at you as someone who has really highlighted a tradition 444 00:23:34,796 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 3: that very few people know about, you know, the exceptions 445 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 3: that you know, Johnny Cash was taught guitar by black guitarists, 446 00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:44,716 Speaker 3: so I think was Hank Williams. There's a lot of 447 00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 3: mentors who are African American, but they weren't well known. 448 00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:53,076 Speaker 3: Their students were well known. Why isn't the African American 449 00:23:53,116 --> 00:23:57,396 Speaker 3: string band tradition as well known as the Carter Family 450 00:23:58,356 --> 00:24:00,396 Speaker 3: or other Mountain music? 451 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 1: What happened on the. 452 00:24:02,436 --> 00:24:05,636 Speaker 4: Carter family another example, you know Leslie Riddle going along 453 00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:08,036 Speaker 4: with them, and a lot of that music would have 454 00:24:08,076 --> 00:24:11,236 Speaker 4: come from how he wrote it down, how he discovered it, 455 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 4: and he's given no credit at all. No, definitely, it's 456 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 4: certainly no royalties. Isn't that funny? 457 00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 3: And I think he had a lot to do with 458 00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:23,156 Speaker 3: teaching Mabel how to play the guitar, and she's that 459 00:24:23,316 --> 00:24:26,276 Speaker 3: is the guitar method for so much country music. 460 00:24:26,796 --> 00:24:30,316 Speaker 4: Yep, it's it's everywhere. We're everywhere except for you know, 461 00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:34,036 Speaker 4: in the consciousness of the majority of the people. 462 00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:36,276 Speaker 3: I mean, I realize ask I'm asking a long question 463 00:24:36,316 --> 00:24:39,356 Speaker 3: that has a very simple answer. It doesn't well, it 464 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:40,956 Speaker 3: has an answer, which is racism. 465 00:24:41,036 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 4: But no, no, it's not that, it's it's Look, I'll 466 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:48,396 Speaker 4: give you my my perception of it. Like I as 467 00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:51,316 Speaker 4: I've been researching it and giving lectures on this. I'm 468 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:53,996 Speaker 4: not a I have a music degree. That's my disclaimer 469 00:24:54,356 --> 00:24:56,836 Speaker 4: in Western art music. So all of this has been 470 00:24:56,876 --> 00:24:59,916 Speaker 4: self researched, just as I'm trying to find the answer. 471 00:24:59,996 --> 00:25:03,676 Speaker 4: So as I've been doing the research, I find three 472 00:25:03,796 --> 00:25:07,836 Speaker 4: reasons and they're interconnected. Racism is one of them, absolutely, 473 00:25:08,036 --> 00:25:11,796 Speaker 4: and actually sism is under all of it. So in 474 00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:15,036 Speaker 4: a short answer, you are correct. But that's not enough 475 00:25:15,036 --> 00:25:19,596 Speaker 4: for people because it's too big. It's all timing and crossroads. 476 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:23,116 Speaker 4: So the Great Migration is happening. Millions of people are 477 00:25:23,196 --> 00:25:24,836 Speaker 4: leaving the South. Of course, why are they leaving the 478 00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:29,076 Speaker 4: South Racism, So that's the heart of that. But there 479 00:25:29,116 --> 00:25:31,076 Speaker 4: is this mass movement of people, people moving to the 480 00:25:31,076 --> 00:25:34,196 Speaker 4: cities in the north and in the west away from 481 00:25:34,236 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 4: the South, and they're bringing their ways with them to 482 00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:40,196 Speaker 4: a point. But the banjo in particular is a very 483 00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:45,076 Speaker 4: specific cultural instrument, as it was in the say eighteen hundreds, 484 00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:48,716 Speaker 4: and you know, you get to the north and it's like, oh, 485 00:25:48,836 --> 00:25:50,676 Speaker 4: this other stuff's starting to happen up here. Like I 486 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:53,956 Speaker 4: don't want to play old Grandpa's corn pone music, you 487 00:25:54,036 --> 00:25:55,516 Speaker 4: know what I mean. I want to play the new stuff. 488 00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 8: Right. 489 00:25:55,756 --> 00:25:59,796 Speaker 4: That's just a natural thing when people move. And then 490 00:25:59,836 --> 00:26:03,836 Speaker 4: you have the recording industry coming in to play. So 491 00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:06,556 Speaker 4: the courting industry is coming in in the twenties, and 492 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 4: you have people like Ralph Pierre inventing billy and race records, 493 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:14,276 Speaker 4: like basically segregating American music at its source, right because 494 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:17,116 Speaker 4: they I mean, there was the whole idea of recording 495 00:26:17,716 --> 00:26:20,716 Speaker 4: regular people in order to sell their music to themselves 496 00:26:21,636 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 4: was a new thing, you know, because what was being 497 00:26:24,516 --> 00:26:27,436 Speaker 4: recorded was like classical music or dance music or this 498 00:26:27,516 --> 00:26:29,356 Speaker 4: kind of stuff. So even the idea of at the 499 00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 4: music saved a lot of music, which is great, but 500 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 4: it saved a lot of music through a particular lens. 501 00:26:35,036 --> 00:26:38,316 Speaker 4: And this is also what happened with Cecil Sharp when 502 00:26:38,316 --> 00:26:42,076 Speaker 4: he came over Ballid collecting saying the Appalachian Mountains. And 503 00:26:42,116 --> 00:26:45,316 Speaker 4: that goes into the third reason, which is blatant to 504 00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:49,236 Speaker 4: white supremacy and a creation of a mythical white ethnicity 505 00:26:49,756 --> 00:26:54,276 Speaker 4: and character as a direct pushback against what Henry Ford, 506 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:58,316 Speaker 4: for example, saw as the jungle music of jazz and 507 00:26:58,356 --> 00:27:02,916 Speaker 4: blues and this collusion with Jews. You know, thought Jews 508 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:04,316 Speaker 4: were trying to take over the I mean, it's just 509 00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:08,196 Speaker 4: all sorts of nasty crap. Then you have going on 510 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:12,556 Speaker 4: within this sort of stew of white nationalism and supremacy, 511 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,996 Speaker 4: the beginnings of the folk festivals and sort of the 512 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:18,916 Speaker 4: folk movement as it was called at that point, and 513 00:27:18,956 --> 00:27:22,996 Speaker 4: so like, built on social sharps, discoveries of Barbary Allen 514 00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 4: or whatever, these these direct links as they saw back 515 00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:30,036 Speaker 4: to the old country. Meanwhile, he ignored any black people 516 00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:33,476 Speaker 4: he saw, hated them, called them the inward, and never 517 00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 4: recorded any of them, even though up to twenty percent 518 00:27:36,316 --> 00:27:38,356 Speaker 4: of the people in the Appalachian Mountains were black up 519 00:27:38,436 --> 00:27:41,596 Speaker 4: until the Great Migration. So he's like in his diaries, 520 00:27:41,716 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 4: like he talks about like we lugged the machine. We 521 00:27:43,996 --> 00:27:46,076 Speaker 4: heard about a likely family up the hill, and we 522 00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:48,116 Speaker 4: lugged the machine all the way up there, and darned 523 00:27:48,156 --> 00:27:50,796 Speaker 4: if it wasn't in a house full of inwards, you know, 524 00:27:51,076 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 4: and we had to go all the way back down 525 00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:54,796 Speaker 4: Hill didn't record them. So this is happening, and then 526 00:27:54,836 --> 00:27:58,676 Speaker 4: they're coming up with these folk fiddle competitions. Black people 527 00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:00,996 Speaker 4: aren't allowed, right, just straight up aren't allowed, even though 528 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:02,556 Speaker 4: in a lot of places they were the best fiddlers 529 00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:05,236 Speaker 4: because the black fiddler, even more than the black banjo player, 530 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 4: was like ubiquitous. They were everywhere. They were the juke 531 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 4: boxes of the country. The black string band is just 532 00:28:11,516 --> 00:28:14,516 Speaker 4: you know, at every function there's black string bands. I 533 00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:17,356 Speaker 4: mean they are the jukeboxes, you know, in the radios before. 534 00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:20,436 Speaker 4: You know, that's when square Dants goes into starts getting 535 00:28:20,436 --> 00:28:23,996 Speaker 4: put into schools as like the American pastime. But what 536 00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:26,676 Speaker 4: they mean is the white American pastime, even though you 537 00:28:26,676 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 4: know square Ant's calling was most likely invented by African 538 00:28:28,876 --> 00:28:30,916 Speaker 4: Americans and that they would have been playing a lot 539 00:28:30,956 --> 00:28:33,796 Speaker 4: of these dances. It's just on and on and on 540 00:28:33,836 --> 00:28:36,356 Speaker 4: and on and on. All the first players of bluegrass 541 00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:39,956 Speaker 4: not just influence, but like we're taught by or learned 542 00:28:39,956 --> 00:28:42,596 Speaker 4: from or we're coming straight out of that. You know, 543 00:28:42,636 --> 00:28:45,716 Speaker 4: what is recorded is remembered, you know. So all of 544 00:28:45,756 --> 00:28:47,876 Speaker 4: this is happening at a time where things are being 545 00:28:47,876 --> 00:28:51,676 Speaker 4: put down on wax. And that's what lasts, you know, 546 00:28:51,796 --> 00:28:54,196 Speaker 4: and the imagery and what they were doing, and this 547 00:28:54,316 --> 00:28:58,036 Speaker 4: creation of the hillbilly character, which is it looks one way, 548 00:28:58,356 --> 00:29:01,156 Speaker 4: it wasn't even real anyway. I mean, like you wouldn't 549 00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:03,916 Speaker 4: have any kind of fiddle and banjo players worth their 550 00:29:03,996 --> 00:29:06,116 Speaker 4: salt who would go into a studio or go into 551 00:29:06,156 --> 00:29:08,996 Speaker 4: a gig dressed like they just wandered off the farm. 552 00:29:09,516 --> 00:29:11,556 Speaker 4: You know, they made them do that for marketing purposes, 553 00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:14,156 Speaker 4: because they were creating. They were also myth making in 554 00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 4: the mountains as well. So everybody's being made up. But 555 00:29:17,956 --> 00:29:21,756 Speaker 4: what happens is that the black not influence, but co 556 00:29:21,876 --> 00:29:25,876 Speaker 4: creation of the root of all American music is forgotten 557 00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 4: and we're sort of shunted into the you know, Okay, 558 00:29:29,076 --> 00:29:31,636 Speaker 4: it's okay for us to be in blues and jazz 559 00:29:31,876 --> 00:29:34,636 Speaker 4: and stuff in spirituals because that's coming out of our pain. 560 00:29:35,996 --> 00:29:38,636 Speaker 3: Well that was the other reason. And I'm thinking of 561 00:29:38,676 --> 00:29:43,196 Speaker 3: the book Escaping the Delta, which is about Robert Johnson, 562 00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:44,996 Speaker 3: but it's about a lot of things. And you know, 563 00:29:45,036 --> 00:29:48,516 Speaker 3: the writer points out that all of those musicians played 564 00:29:48,516 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 3: in many many styles. 565 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:52,396 Speaker 4: Oh god, they played it all. 566 00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:53,436 Speaker 1: They could do it all. 567 00:29:53,476 --> 00:29:56,916 Speaker 3: But when it was marketed, when it was marketed as 568 00:29:57,076 --> 00:30:00,836 Speaker 3: authentic black music, it was the blues and that's what 569 00:30:00,876 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 3: they thought people wanted to hear. 570 00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:06,836 Speaker 4: Blues was an incredibly important art form to black people 571 00:30:06,996 --> 00:30:09,316 Speaker 4: because it did express part of a a lot of 572 00:30:09,356 --> 00:30:12,076 Speaker 4: people's lives. But that wasn't the only way that they 573 00:30:12,076 --> 00:30:14,516 Speaker 4: expressed themselves, you know. It was just the popular thing 574 00:30:14,596 --> 00:30:17,916 Speaker 4: and that moment and so income these people and go, well, 575 00:30:17,956 --> 00:30:19,236 Speaker 4: you listen to that, and you listen to that, and 576 00:30:19,236 --> 00:30:21,716 Speaker 4: it's just like, well, we listen to everything, actually, but 577 00:30:22,676 --> 00:30:25,076 Speaker 4: it's all about capitalism. It's all about like, we just 578 00:30:25,116 --> 00:30:27,556 Speaker 4: need to sell this stuff the easiest way, and marketing. 579 00:30:27,756 --> 00:30:29,996 Speaker 4: Marketing goes in there, and then it's like, who are 580 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 4: you seeing doing this? And then that's the great divide 581 00:30:32,916 --> 00:30:36,836 Speaker 4: begins there. You know. I think the portion of history 582 00:30:36,836 --> 00:30:39,636 Speaker 4: and musical American musical history, for me, that is most 583 00:30:39,716 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 4: fascinating where I think all of the seeds of all 584 00:30:42,196 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 4: of this stuff were planted and start to bloom is 585 00:30:45,716 --> 00:30:51,276 Speaker 4: between emancipation and the nineteen twenties. And that's the stuff 586 00:30:51,276 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 4: that's not recorded. You know. All we have is stuff 587 00:30:55,156 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 4: that's been written about it, and people talking about it 588 00:30:57,356 --> 00:30:59,436 Speaker 4: and all this kind of stuff. But there's a lot 589 00:30:59,476 --> 00:31:02,156 Speaker 4: of there's still a lot of things we can glean 590 00:31:02,276 --> 00:31:06,516 Speaker 4: from that time, but it just takes time and smarter 591 00:31:06,596 --> 00:31:08,516 Speaker 4: people than me writing books that I can then read 592 00:31:09,636 --> 00:31:12,916 Speaker 4: come up with my theories, you know, to help people 593 00:31:13,036 --> 00:31:14,036 Speaker 4: understand this, you know. 594 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:17,396 Speaker 3: But it's also a time when a lot of music 595 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:22,356 Speaker 3: was passed along through minstrel shows, which are kind of, 596 00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:27,996 Speaker 3: for good reason, radioactive form of entertainment that it's hard 597 00:31:28,036 --> 00:31:28,916 Speaker 3: to come to terms with. 598 00:31:28,956 --> 00:31:29,196 Speaker 1: Now. 599 00:31:29,796 --> 00:31:32,516 Speaker 4: Well, what I'm finding is that we have to separate 600 00:31:32,556 --> 00:31:35,556 Speaker 4: the minstrel show and the music that went into the 601 00:31:35,556 --> 00:31:37,796 Speaker 4: menstrual show in a lot of ways. It's not to 602 00:31:37,796 --> 00:31:39,636 Speaker 4: say that the music that went into minstrel show is 603 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:44,076 Speaker 4: not problematic, because it is. But there's musicians and then 604 00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:48,196 Speaker 4: there's the spectacle, and they are related. But I think 605 00:31:48,236 --> 00:31:50,596 Speaker 4: what happens is that the music gets conflated into the 606 00:31:50,636 --> 00:31:52,276 Speaker 4: show and then it's like we can't look at any 607 00:31:52,316 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 4: of it, and it's like I can't do that because 608 00:31:55,556 --> 00:32:00,316 Speaker 4: in that music is like my ancestors are in that music. 609 00:32:00,716 --> 00:32:03,556 Speaker 4: So like when I pick up a book from eighteen 610 00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:06,236 Speaker 4: fifty five, the Briggs banjo instructure and this is the 611 00:32:06,316 --> 00:32:09,916 Speaker 4: very first banjo instructor in the United States. Now, banjos 612 00:32:09,956 --> 00:32:13,076 Speaker 4: invented in the Caribbean by Africans and the African descended 613 00:32:13,076 --> 00:32:15,996 Speaker 4: peoples and then comes up to the US and only 614 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:19,196 Speaker 4: makes the transition to white culture in the eighteen twenties, right, 615 00:32:20,076 --> 00:32:23,596 Speaker 4: so thirty years after that is the first book written. 616 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:26,556 Speaker 4: So these all of these first generation of white banjo 617 00:32:26,596 --> 00:32:29,556 Speaker 4: players where they get in their banjo licks, you know, 618 00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:33,756 Speaker 4: from black players. So in this book, I've I've learned 619 00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:37,076 Speaker 4: a lot of these tunes on a you know, a 620 00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:40,396 Speaker 4: replica of banjo from eighteen fifty eight, so it feels 621 00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:44,396 Speaker 4: very different to a modern banjo. And I feel so 622 00:32:44,596 --> 00:32:48,316 Speaker 4: much like, okay, here is these black banjo players are 623 00:32:48,316 --> 00:32:51,076 Speaker 4: in these tunes. There's like all this three against two 624 00:32:51,716 --> 00:32:53,596 Speaker 4: you know, all of the all of the things that 625 00:32:53,676 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 4: go into American music are all represented in miniature in 626 00:32:57,356 --> 00:32:57,996 Speaker 4: these tunes. 627 00:32:58,076 --> 00:33:00,676 Speaker 3: And three against two is that's very That's very West 628 00:33:00,716 --> 00:33:01,836 Speaker 3: African sound, isn't it. 629 00:33:02,036 --> 00:33:05,556 Speaker 4: Yeah? And like as I mess with these tunes, you know, 630 00:33:05,596 --> 00:33:08,956 Speaker 4: because the fifth string, that's it right there, Like what 631 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:11,476 Speaker 4: that does to a tune, what that does to music? 632 00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:14,116 Speaker 4: Like that's why I used to get so upset. You 633 00:33:14,116 --> 00:33:17,396 Speaker 4: know that myth of the of a white guy inventing 634 00:33:17,396 --> 00:33:17,996 Speaker 4: the fifth string. 635 00:33:18,036 --> 00:33:19,516 Speaker 1: It's just like, I didn't know that. 636 00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:23,076 Speaker 3: And the fifth string is it always? Uh, I'm sorry, 637 00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:25,356 Speaker 3: I don't know. The banjo is it? Is it like 638 00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:26,076 Speaker 3: a drone. 639 00:33:26,676 --> 00:33:30,916 Speaker 4: It's a drone. It's a short drone string and what 640 00:33:31,276 --> 00:33:34,276 Speaker 4: that means for playing And it's very unique, the Clawhimer style, 641 00:33:34,316 --> 00:33:37,316 Speaker 4: which is called strokestyle during this time. It's like go 642 00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:39,076 Speaker 4: around the world and see if you can find that. 643 00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:41,956 Speaker 4: I mean, they do it in West Africa, you know, 644 00:33:42,276 --> 00:33:44,476 Speaker 4: with the aconte and the patuon doing some other things. 645 00:33:44,716 --> 00:33:47,556 Speaker 4: But it's a very unique style. You play the back 646 00:33:47,596 --> 00:33:50,796 Speaker 4: in the back of the first finger, the nail and 647 00:33:50,836 --> 00:33:54,476 Speaker 4: the thumb and that's it. It's just those two things. 648 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:58,316 Speaker 4: So there's all the syncopation that's built into the instrument. 649 00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:02,476 Speaker 4: It's like deep, deep, deep cultural meaning in that. And 650 00:34:02,556 --> 00:34:05,276 Speaker 4: so if you throw that away, you know, you throw 651 00:34:05,316 --> 00:34:09,116 Speaker 4: away all of those nameless you know, black banjo players. 652 00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:11,956 Speaker 3: Do you have a banjo there? Could you just demonstrate 653 00:34:11,996 --> 00:34:14,236 Speaker 3: a little bit of the drone sound? And I don't know, 654 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:16,236 Speaker 3: if there's a song on the album, you just want 655 00:34:16,236 --> 00:34:17,956 Speaker 3: to show us how you how you did it? 656 00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:21,996 Speaker 4: So this is my gord banjo, so it's not it's 657 00:34:22,036 --> 00:34:27,716 Speaker 4: not as uh steady as my minstrel banjo, but it's 658 00:34:27,716 --> 00:35:24,676 Speaker 4: the same tuning. And that's a piece from eighteen fifty 659 00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:29,916 Speaker 4: five for Expansion Instructor called hard Times. And there it 660 00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:33,716 Speaker 4: is like what else do you want? That's just the 661 00:35:33,756 --> 00:35:35,276 Speaker 4: one piece from that But can't you hear it all 662 00:35:35,316 --> 00:35:35,636 Speaker 4: in there? 663 00:35:35,796 --> 00:35:38,996 Speaker 3: It was beautiful, yeah, and you make it look very 664 00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:40,596 Speaker 3: easy and it clearly is not. 665 00:35:42,076 --> 00:35:44,276 Speaker 4: Well. I mean, the tune is actually quite simple, but 666 00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:47,596 Speaker 4: there's a lot rhythmically that can be brought out of it. 667 00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:50,236 Speaker 4: And that's where I feel like I have a I 668 00:35:50,276 --> 00:35:53,276 Speaker 4: have an interesting perspective into these tunes because I've had 669 00:35:53,596 --> 00:36:05,076 Speaker 4: the time with Joe Thompson. So you know, like on 670 00:36:05,116 --> 00:36:08,476 Speaker 4: the surface, this isn't it's a jig. You know, four 671 00:36:08,356 --> 00:36:10,396 Speaker 4: f six went to the physics, But there's so much 672 00:36:10,516 --> 00:36:14,156 Speaker 4: d D duh duh in that and it's and it's 673 00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:17,396 Speaker 4: just like even when you just take the little short 674 00:36:17,436 --> 00:36:27,556 Speaker 4: string this fist string here, I mean, it's like the 675 00:36:28,676 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 4: off accents that can be pulled out with this instrument 676 00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:34,356 Speaker 4: that you can't really do with the regular band because 677 00:36:34,356 --> 00:36:36,956 Speaker 4: this these strings have a lot of give, and when 678 00:36:36,996 --> 00:36:40,156 Speaker 4: I think about, like I studied pre banjo instruments like 679 00:36:40,196 --> 00:36:44,316 Speaker 4: the accoonting, and how that give gives you a balance 680 00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:48,276 Speaker 4: that then shows just the natural syncopation in the instrument 681 00:36:48,516 --> 00:36:50,596 Speaker 4: just sort of abuse everything. Do you know what I mean? 682 00:36:50,836 --> 00:36:51,876 Speaker 4: I'm not crazy, like you hear that. 683 00:36:51,996 --> 00:37:21,916 Speaker 1: No, You're not crazy. 684 00:37:24,596 --> 00:37:26,436 Speaker 4: I mean it's just like there's some all of these 685 00:37:26,476 --> 00:37:30,076 Speaker 4: tunes or have worlds in them. I hear so many 686 00:37:30,076 --> 00:37:34,516 Speaker 4: different aspects of like American culture in these tunes. So 687 00:37:34,596 --> 00:37:37,676 Speaker 4: that's really been a code It was kind of like 688 00:37:37,716 --> 00:37:40,276 Speaker 4: a I feel like it was a code breaker for me. 689 00:37:40,316 --> 00:37:42,956 Speaker 4: It was like, oh, here it is. 690 00:37:44,596 --> 00:37:46,396 Speaker 3: You know well, it's like it's like you start to 691 00:37:46,436 --> 00:37:48,276 Speaker 3: hear a different sound after you've played it a couple 692 00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:48,756 Speaker 3: of bars. 693 00:37:48,836 --> 00:37:50,036 Speaker 1: It just it has. 694 00:37:49,916 --> 00:37:52,636 Speaker 3: Its own kind of momentum or something. It reminds me 695 00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:56,476 Speaker 3: of the playing of your guitarist on this record, mem 696 00:37:56,876 --> 00:37:59,276 Speaker 3: but he and there's a wonderful video of you playing 697 00:37:59,476 --> 00:38:02,516 Speaker 3: uh I think will water Bound maybe where at some 698 00:38:02,516 --> 00:38:04,516 Speaker 3: point you just you take your fiddle bow and you 699 00:38:04,556 --> 00:38:06,956 Speaker 3: kind of point at him and he's playing these figures 700 00:38:06,956 --> 00:38:09,116 Speaker 3: that just they just sound like they should go on 701 00:38:09,316 --> 00:38:11,236 Speaker 3: forever that it has their. 702 00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:12,756 Speaker 4: Water cascading or something. 703 00:38:12,916 --> 00:38:15,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's got this whole other feeling. I wanted to 704 00:38:15,396 --> 00:38:17,396 Speaker 3: ask you about working with him because I loved that 705 00:38:17,516 --> 00:38:18,316 Speaker 3: sound of his guitar. 706 00:38:18,596 --> 00:38:21,996 Speaker 4: It was amazing and in fact, one of my favorite 707 00:38:21,996 --> 00:38:24,716 Speaker 4: moments is in the one called Niewell Goes to Town. 708 00:38:26,116 --> 00:38:28,036 Speaker 4: It didn't have it. I had written the tune like 709 00:38:28,036 --> 00:38:29,716 Speaker 4: in a sound check at some point, and it didn't 710 00:38:29,716 --> 00:38:32,436 Speaker 4: have a title, and we were talking about how to 711 00:38:32,556 --> 00:38:34,396 Speaker 4: arrange it, and I said, well, at this point, you know, 712 00:38:34,556 --> 00:38:36,836 Speaker 4: Newell just needs to go to town, you know, because 713 00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:38,876 Speaker 4: I knew he would just crush it. And then we're like, 714 00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:41,196 Speaker 4: that's what we should call it Newell because he does 715 00:38:41,196 --> 00:38:43,076 Speaker 4: go to town soon. But the beginning of that tune, 716 00:38:43,116 --> 00:38:46,676 Speaker 4: there's this exchange between guitar and banjo and it just 717 00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:49,956 Speaker 4: sounds so there's it's just so much stuff going on 718 00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:52,396 Speaker 4: in that because it's like, here is Niewel playing like 719 00:38:52,436 --> 00:38:57,356 Speaker 4: a Western instrument that has been adopted into Africa, you know, 720 00:38:57,516 --> 00:39:01,076 Speaker 4: and there's a whole different, you know, ways of playing 721 00:39:01,156 --> 00:39:02,876 Speaker 4: the guitar in different parts of Africa. 722 00:39:02,956 --> 00:39:03,156 Speaker 1: You know. 723 00:39:03,636 --> 00:39:06,116 Speaker 4: That comes straight out of that loot tradition of like 724 00:39:06,276 --> 00:39:09,836 Speaker 4: angoni or kora or you know, all this. Then all 725 00:39:09,836 --> 00:39:11,676 Speaker 4: of these things sort of being put onto the guitar, 726 00:39:12,556 --> 00:39:14,716 Speaker 4: and there I am playing the banjo, which is a 727 00:39:14,716 --> 00:39:18,716 Speaker 4: descendant of those same instruments that would have been the 728 00:39:18,756 --> 00:39:22,316 Speaker 4: inspiration for where some of the guitar work is coming from. 729 00:39:22,356 --> 00:39:24,236 Speaker 4: I would assume, like I don't know Newell's story, but 730 00:39:24,316 --> 00:39:27,316 Speaker 4: I'm just my general knowledge of people that I've heard 731 00:39:27,316 --> 00:39:29,796 Speaker 4: play the guitar who come from you know, that area, 732 00:39:30,516 --> 00:39:33,756 Speaker 4: and it's just for me. That's what I love so 733 00:39:33,916 --> 00:39:36,716 Speaker 4: much is when that happens, because like it's just different 734 00:39:36,716 --> 00:39:41,116 Speaker 4: people are synthesizing stuff, and then when you meet you 735 00:39:41,196 --> 00:39:43,676 Speaker 4: kind of realize, oh, there's this whole, this huge circle 736 00:39:44,356 --> 00:39:46,556 Speaker 4: that just happened, and we just completed the circle. It 737 00:39:46,596 --> 00:39:47,196 Speaker 4: is amazing. 738 00:39:47,316 --> 00:39:47,516 Speaker 1: You know. 739 00:39:48,116 --> 00:39:52,516 Speaker 4: This is like me kind of going as far back 740 00:39:52,556 --> 00:39:57,036 Speaker 4: as I can as a musician to my black ancestors 741 00:39:57,076 --> 00:39:59,396 Speaker 4: who played the banjo, the closest I can get to 742 00:39:59,476 --> 00:40:01,636 Speaker 4: touching them other than through Joe, you know, that's the 743 00:40:01,676 --> 00:40:05,156 Speaker 4: other way. So I'm going through the white man's book, 744 00:40:05,956 --> 00:40:09,356 Speaker 4: you know, and then through the oral, the black oral 745 00:40:09,396 --> 00:40:12,516 Speaker 4: tradition through Joe, and so between those two approaches. I've 746 00:40:12,596 --> 00:40:15,716 Speaker 4: kind of found some something that's my own, but that 747 00:40:15,916 --> 00:40:17,956 Speaker 4: feels that it's connected in some way. 748 00:40:18,756 --> 00:40:20,996 Speaker 2: We'll be right back with Rhiannon Giddens and Bruce had 749 00:40:21,036 --> 00:40:28,276 Speaker 2: them after this break. We're back with Rannon Giddens performing 750 00:40:28,276 --> 00:40:30,876 Speaker 2: the Appellation Banjo song. Georgia Buck. 751 00:41:07,636 --> 00:41:12,276 Speaker 6: Georgia Buck is dead. Last word he said, don't put 752 00:41:12,596 --> 00:41:14,436 Speaker 6: no shortening in my bread. 753 00:41:16,116 --> 00:41:17,716 Speaker 4: Georgie Buck is dead. 754 00:41:18,316 --> 00:41:21,996 Speaker 6: Last what he said, don't you put no shoting in 755 00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:45,276 Speaker 6: my bread. Georgie Buck's dead. Last word he said, don't 756 00:41:45,276 --> 00:41:50,036 Speaker 6: you let je woman have her way. If she has 757 00:41:50,076 --> 00:41:50,996 Speaker 6: her way. 758 00:41:51,236 --> 00:41:52,876 Speaker 4: She will golden stale day. 759 00:41:53,876 --> 00:42:10,556 Speaker 8: Don't let your woman have her way. 760 00:42:14,756 --> 00:42:19,676 Speaker 6: George Buds dead. Last word he said, don't you put 761 00:42:19,676 --> 00:42:24,596 Speaker 6: no shoning in my bread. Don't you put no shoning 762 00:42:24,716 --> 00:42:25,476 Speaker 6: in my bread? 763 00:42:25,596 --> 00:42:25,796 Speaker 4: Now? 764 00:42:25,916 --> 00:42:30,076 Speaker 6: Now, now, don't you put no shorting in my libred. 765 00:43:08,596 --> 00:43:11,476 Speaker 1: That was fantastic, a little Joe Thompson there. 766 00:43:11,996 --> 00:43:16,276 Speaker 3: You have drawn a lot of attention to this tradition 767 00:43:17,036 --> 00:43:20,316 Speaker 3: that people didn't generally know about. I mean, academics probably 768 00:43:20,356 --> 00:43:22,436 Speaker 3: knew about it, but a lot of people didn't. And 769 00:43:22,636 --> 00:43:24,956 Speaker 3: you know, and it informs so much of your playing. 770 00:43:25,676 --> 00:43:28,596 Speaker 3: You know, so you've got tradition and then you've got 771 00:43:29,556 --> 00:43:32,436 Speaker 3: the individual talent that's you, and you want to do 772 00:43:32,516 --> 00:43:37,876 Speaker 3: different things with it. Sometimes when people, you know, particularly 773 00:43:37,956 --> 00:43:42,916 Speaker 3: something you know as as as political as rediscovering this 774 00:43:43,116 --> 00:43:47,636 Speaker 3: sortvein of African American culture, they want it curated and 775 00:43:47,676 --> 00:43:50,716 Speaker 3: they kind of they don't want it messed with. That 776 00:43:51,036 --> 00:43:54,796 Speaker 3: goes for that echoes for all kinds of traditions, you know, 777 00:43:54,916 --> 00:43:58,556 Speaker 3: as you know, in sort of standard country music, they 778 00:43:58,596 --> 00:44:02,036 Speaker 3: want to gain me. Yeah, yes, since since it started, 779 00:44:02,076 --> 00:44:04,676 Speaker 3: it's been well, that's not real country music. Do you 780 00:44:04,716 --> 00:44:07,996 Speaker 3: feel sometimes that being such a strong part of that 781 00:44:08,036 --> 00:44:12,156 Speaker 3: tradition almost feels not like a burden, but it feels 782 00:44:12,956 --> 00:44:15,156 Speaker 3: that it could be confining for what you want to 783 00:44:15,156 --> 00:44:15,636 Speaker 3: do with it. 784 00:44:15,956 --> 00:44:19,916 Speaker 4: You know, justin one of the original Chocolate Drops Along, 785 00:44:20,036 --> 00:44:21,796 Speaker 4: you know, one of the co founders along with myself 786 00:44:21,796 --> 00:44:24,236 Speaker 4: and Dom Flemons, you know, he used to say, tradition 787 00:44:24,356 --> 00:44:28,036 Speaker 4: is a guide, not a jailer. And I think that's 788 00:44:28,076 --> 00:44:33,036 Speaker 4: an important statement. Tradition has never been static. And this 789 00:44:33,116 --> 00:44:38,716 Speaker 4: is what people conveniently forget is that until recorded, until 790 00:44:38,756 --> 00:44:41,956 Speaker 4: we had had the opportunity, know, the ability to put 791 00:44:42,916 --> 00:44:47,236 Speaker 4: music on a record, it was only through human memory 792 00:44:47,476 --> 00:44:50,516 Speaker 4: and paper. And we all know that both of those things. 793 00:44:51,236 --> 00:44:55,036 Speaker 4: Despite what people say about music notation in some and 794 00:44:55,356 --> 00:44:59,076 Speaker 4: you know some with some music are notoriously unreliable. Human 795 00:44:59,116 --> 00:45:02,716 Speaker 4: memory is what it is. And so even in the 796 00:45:02,796 --> 00:45:05,196 Speaker 4: days of long recall, which still happened. I mean there's 797 00:45:05,556 --> 00:45:08,876 Speaker 4: Jelly's you know, port musicians or whatever. He can still 798 00:45:08,876 --> 00:45:12,796 Speaker 4: remains vast lineages and stuff. But there is going to 799 00:45:12,836 --> 00:45:15,196 Speaker 4: be slippage, there's going to be changed, there's going to 800 00:45:15,236 --> 00:45:21,276 Speaker 4: be disruption, there's going to be individual talent. So there's 801 00:45:21,316 --> 00:45:23,196 Speaker 4: all of that going on. So it's just like I 802 00:45:23,236 --> 00:45:26,596 Speaker 4: think that it's always a moving target. And a lot 803 00:45:26,636 --> 00:45:28,476 Speaker 4: of times the people who are gatekeeping, not to say 804 00:45:28,476 --> 00:45:30,196 Speaker 4: that there aren't people from within the tradition, you do 805 00:45:30,236 --> 00:45:32,356 Speaker 4: that there are, but it always feels to me that 806 00:45:32,396 --> 00:45:36,356 Speaker 4: people there's always more people from coming from without. You know, 807 00:45:36,436 --> 00:45:39,196 Speaker 4: this especially happened in the Old Time Community. A lot 808 00:45:39,236 --> 00:45:41,196 Speaker 4: of people came to the Old Time Community from the 809 00:45:41,236 --> 00:45:44,756 Speaker 4: north or from other places looking for something and they 810 00:45:44,796 --> 00:45:47,316 Speaker 4: found it, whatever that is. And in a lot of 811 00:45:47,356 --> 00:45:50,836 Speaker 4: cases that meant that some music was saved and they 812 00:45:50,836 --> 00:45:52,716 Speaker 4: took care of people, and that's wonderful, but in a 813 00:45:52,796 --> 00:45:55,316 Speaker 4: lot of instances. It also came along with well, we 814 00:45:55,396 --> 00:45:58,636 Speaker 4: know what it is, and you know it's this way. 815 00:45:58,756 --> 00:46:00,716 Speaker 4: You play the tune this way because that's how Tommy 816 00:46:00,716 --> 00:46:03,316 Speaker 4: played it, you know, and it's or that's what it's 817 00:46:03,316 --> 00:46:05,516 Speaker 4: on the recording. And it's just like, man, he may 818 00:46:05,556 --> 00:46:07,516 Speaker 4: have been eighty years old when that recording was made. 819 00:46:07,516 --> 00:46:08,876 Speaker 4: He could have been drunk that day. He could have 820 00:46:08,916 --> 00:46:10,396 Speaker 4: forg got in the tune that day. He could have 821 00:46:10,436 --> 00:46:13,276 Speaker 4: been ornery that day. Like, that's only the moment of 822 00:46:13,516 --> 00:46:16,836 Speaker 4: that performance of the tune, you know. It's just like, 823 00:46:17,556 --> 00:46:19,596 Speaker 4: none of this is in stone, even though people think 824 00:46:19,636 --> 00:46:22,236 Speaker 4: it is because it's been recorded down. It's just like 825 00:46:22,396 --> 00:46:25,396 Speaker 4: just that moment of that day was recorded down. And 826 00:46:25,436 --> 00:46:28,236 Speaker 4: I just think, on the one hand, you have people 827 00:46:28,236 --> 00:46:30,916 Speaker 4: who want a gatekeeper, who want to keep people out, 828 00:46:30,996 --> 00:46:33,516 Speaker 4: even though they themselves were walking in by those very 829 00:46:33,556 --> 00:46:36,716 Speaker 4: old timers that they're protecting from other people. Right. We 830 00:46:36,796 --> 00:46:39,956 Speaker 4: have people tell us, don't teach Joe new tunes because 831 00:46:39,956 --> 00:46:42,556 Speaker 4: he wanted to learn Sourwood Mountain. We were teaching him. 832 00:46:42,596 --> 00:46:44,716 Speaker 4: How don't teach Joe newtunes. I'm like, the man is 833 00:46:44,756 --> 00:46:48,436 Speaker 4: a musician, he's not a relic He's not a museum piece. 834 00:46:48,876 --> 00:46:51,276 Speaker 4: It's not going to ruin him. He already plays different 835 00:46:51,316 --> 00:46:52,756 Speaker 4: than he did ten years ago. He had a stroke, 836 00:46:52,836 --> 00:46:55,636 Speaker 4: for God's sake, like he is who he is right now. 837 00:46:56,116 --> 00:46:58,756 Speaker 4: And that's what we got, and it's amazing. We have it. 838 00:46:59,236 --> 00:47:01,156 Speaker 3: Your version of O Death, which is fabulous. 839 00:47:04,276 --> 00:47:05,876 Speaker 1: It starts with death. 840 00:47:06,556 --> 00:47:10,716 Speaker 3: In the morning, and I had never heard that line, 841 00:47:11,316 --> 00:47:14,436 Speaker 3: and in fact, the only place because that's not how 842 00:47:14,476 --> 00:47:16,996 Speaker 3: Stanley does it. Ralph Stanley or a lot of other people, 843 00:47:17,436 --> 00:47:19,156 Speaker 3: is that a standard way of doing it? What was 844 00:47:19,196 --> 00:47:22,756 Speaker 3: the origin of you choosing to put in the morning line? 845 00:47:22,956 --> 00:47:25,396 Speaker 4: I got it from Bessie Jones, you know, I because 846 00:47:25,436 --> 00:47:27,876 Speaker 4: I'd heard of Ralph Stanley version like everybody else an 847 00:47:27,876 --> 00:47:31,436 Speaker 4: O Brother years and years ago, and of course knew 848 00:47:31,516 --> 00:47:34,676 Speaker 4: that version, but I stumbled across her version somewhere and 849 00:47:34,716 --> 00:47:36,596 Speaker 4: I was like, oh god, it's the black O Death. 850 00:47:39,596 --> 00:47:42,716 Speaker 4: I love this so much. And I was like, this 851 00:47:42,796 --> 00:47:44,436 Speaker 4: is what I want it just like I started singing 852 00:47:44,476 --> 00:47:46,676 Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, yes, you know it just 853 00:47:46,876 --> 00:47:49,956 Speaker 4: really kind of I was possessed when we recorded that, 854 00:47:50,116 --> 00:47:53,476 Speaker 4: like absolutely, because all the voice all the voiceovers, they're 855 00:47:53,676 --> 00:47:56,556 Speaker 4: just passes. He does not he's not constructing any of that. 856 00:47:56,596 --> 00:48:00,036 Speaker 4: It's literally like I'm singing with myself three times through 857 00:48:00,436 --> 00:48:02,956 Speaker 4: and that's it, and he just included everything. It's just 858 00:48:03,036 --> 00:48:06,676 Speaker 4: it's insane. But yeah, Bessie Jones's version of that, and 859 00:48:06,716 --> 00:48:09,676 Speaker 4: I just I connected to it in a way that 860 00:48:09,716 --> 00:48:12,196 Speaker 4: I never really connected to the Rob Stanley version, and 861 00:48:12,236 --> 00:48:14,836 Speaker 4: I was like, oh, this. 862 00:48:13,156 --> 00:48:14,516 Speaker 2: Is this is it? 863 00:48:15,476 --> 00:48:15,876 Speaker 1: Okay? 864 00:48:16,076 --> 00:48:17,436 Speaker 3: That was just amazing. 865 00:48:17,476 --> 00:48:19,356 Speaker 4: Thank you so much, You're welcome. 866 00:48:22,596 --> 00:48:24,836 Speaker 2: Thanks to Anna and Gettins for keeping the black string 867 00:48:24,876 --> 00:48:28,076 Speaker 2: tradition alive and for sharing some of her incredible banjo 868 00:48:28,116 --> 00:48:31,556 Speaker 2: playing technique. To hear a new album, They're calling me home. 869 00:48:31,956 --> 00:48:34,996 Speaker 2: Head to Broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to 870 00:48:34,996 --> 00:48:37,876 Speaker 2: subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash 871 00:48:37,956 --> 00:48:41,276 Speaker 2: broken Record Podcast. We can find all of our episodes. 872 00:48:41,916 --> 00:48:45,116 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 873 00:48:45,156 --> 00:48:48,116 Speaker 2: Record is produced of help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, 874 00:48:48,396 --> 00:48:52,996 Speaker 2: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help 875 00:48:53,036 --> 00:48:56,276 Speaker 2: from Nick Chafey. Our executive producer is me La Belle. 876 00:48:57,116 --> 00:48:59,996 Speaker 2: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you 877 00:49:00,116 --> 00:49:02,676 Speaker 2: like the show, please remember to share, rate, and interview 878 00:49:02,756 --> 00:49:06,076 Speaker 2: us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. 879 00:49:06,316 --> 00:49:09,436 Speaker 2: I'm Justin Richmond bass slip