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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristin's Kristen. I love what we're about to talk about.

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Speaker 1: We're about to talk about spy ladies on TV and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to cover this topic because there was a

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Speaker 1: recent article on Slate asking why there are so many

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Speaker 1: women spies on television. But I also hold this topic

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Speaker 1: near and dear to my heart because I currently on

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Speaker 1: my shelf at home have every single DVD of um

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Speaker 1: usas the fem Nikita sitting there, and I'm washed and love.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea about the secret lovel with fem Nikita.

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Speaker 1: There's all this stuff you don't know about me kristin

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Speaker 1: Romance Nikita. It goes on and on. But I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about why spy ladies are so intriguing. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, first we should probably back up and talk

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Speaker 1: about the spy genre in general and how it got

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Speaker 1: its start and how it inspired so much film and

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Speaker 1: TV and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. Um, the spy

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Speaker 1: genre kicks off not surprisingly really with Ian Fleming, who

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Speaker 1: created the James Bond figure and dr No. The first

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Speaker 1: James Bond movie premiered in nineteen sixty two, which really

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Speaker 1: kicked off the spy craze, and um, the peak of

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Speaker 1: the spy, the early spy craze, so nineteen sixty two

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Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy three. But it wasn't just serious spies

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Speaker 1: like James Bond, right, Yeah, it kind of it took

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Speaker 1: a turn after a little while, once the once the

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Speaker 1: spy craze emerged, they started being slightly less serious, maybe

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Speaker 1: kind of buddy comedies, buddy comedy type spy shows, and

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Speaker 1: then there were parodies and and it keeps kind of

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Speaker 1: of circulating like that. I feel like, um, now we've

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Speaker 1: kind of now we've kind of gotten back more to

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Speaker 1: the serious, serious spies. Although there was that movie remake

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Speaker 1: of Get Smart with Steve Carrell, so so it's it's

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Speaker 1: cycling around, it comes and goes. Um, But we're really

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Speaker 1: here to talk about the women in these uh and

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Speaker 1: these spy films, especially women in spy shows on television. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the dawn of the spy craze, which is

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Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies, and Tom Losanti and Louis

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Speaker 1: Paul investigated this period. Um. They have a book called

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Speaker 1: film Fatale Film not not film film film film film fatale,

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Speaker 1: little play on words. I know, indeed, that's why I

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Speaker 1: tripped over it. Women in espionage films and television from

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two to nineteen seventy three, and they broke

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Speaker 1: down the four types of women that most frequently occurred

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Speaker 1: in these shows. And movies. Now, keep in mind, this

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Speaker 1: was before we had the butt kicking women of today,

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Speaker 1: like like Nikita and like Piper Parabose character on covert Affairs. Um.

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Speaker 1: So there breakdown was with the following four women. Number one,

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Speaker 1: we have the hell full spy slash secret agent slash operative.

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Speaker 1: She supports the hero, the quote unquote hero because the

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Speaker 1: women aren't heroes yet um and sometimes pays for it

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Speaker 1: with her life. Oh. Then we have the innocent, who's

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Speaker 1: usually a civilian who inadvertently stumbles into the action, is

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Speaker 1: mistaken for a spy, has secret information the enemy is after,

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Speaker 1: or has revenge on her mind. I feel like this

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Speaker 1: would be me accidentally stumble into something really like guys

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Speaker 1: this the party? Oh no, mafia. No. This reminds me

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Speaker 1: that innocent trope reminds me of Scarecrow, and Mrs King

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Speaker 1: reminds me of the Mrs King character. It was a

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Speaker 1: Ganga family favorite. Okay, I uh what, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that is. She was this She was just like

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Speaker 1: an innocent, you know. And then she's got Scarecrow, this

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Speaker 1: handsome guy who happens to also be a secret agent

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Speaker 1: and has to protect her. But really the whole spy

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Speaker 1: thing is just um a framework for their budding romance, right,

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Speaker 1: as it often is in some of these movies. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: Well we also have the bad girl turned good. She's

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Speaker 1: usually assigned to kill the hero, but after seducing him,

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Speaker 1: they end up joining forces, and she typically ends up

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Speaker 1: being killed either by her former bad guy boss or

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Speaker 1: by the hero himself. And that probably happened in quite

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Speaker 1: a lot of James Bond movies. Yeah, seduction, the sexy

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Speaker 1: seductress is overwhelmed by oxytocin wants say intercourse, and the

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Speaker 1: bonding ensues and then she dies. Right, I hate when

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Speaker 1: that happens. And then, last, but not least, we have

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Speaker 1: the villainous slash film Fatale, slash assassin, who, according to

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Speaker 1: these two gentlemen, is pure evil and she is sometimes

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Speaker 1: a double agent, so she's a double crosser and she's

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Speaker 1: trying to outwit the hero, and of course she fails

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Speaker 1: and she dies. So they always died, all of these like,

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Speaker 1: she's really good and she dies, she's evil and she dies.

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Speaker 1: It's just it just happens. So yeah, anyway, Um, and

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Speaker 1: one there was a quote too in the film Fatale

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Speaker 1: that I thought, uh, summed up that period really nicely,

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Speaker 1: they wrote, and this is in relation to the spy

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Speaker 1: agent craze from six seventy three. They write, without the

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Speaker 1: women to allure, entice, seduce, and sometimes destroy our heroes,

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Speaker 1: where would the entertainment be. For the most part, women

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Speaker 1: in the spy genre where used as mere window dressing,

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Speaker 1: but decked in some of the most outrageously mod fashions

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Speaker 1: and hairstyles of the sixties. It was hard, You're keep

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Speaker 1: hard to keep your eyes off of them, no matter

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Speaker 1: how absurd the plot. So even though the women were

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Speaker 1: often second tier to these handsome action male spies, they

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Speaker 1: were necessary to drive the plot arc exactly and had

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Speaker 1: a little eye candy. Sure thing. Now let's get a

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Speaker 1: little more serious, break it down, um. Rosie White wrote

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Speaker 1: a book called Violent Films another another play, Yeah Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Women as Spies in popular culture, and she writes a

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Speaker 1: lot about femininity and masculinity and how spying and being

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Speaker 1: under cover sort of plays into our gender roles, and

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Speaker 1: how female spies are supposedly you know, they're playing on

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Speaker 1: really feminine traits of like deception and using their charm

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Speaker 1: and beauty, you know, just exactly exactly, and and um

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Speaker 1: more masculine traits of of the action hero and being

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Speaker 1: brave and getting in on the action and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And um, she says that spying is an appropriate trope

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Speaker 1: to employ when discussing gender, as femininity like masculinity is

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Speaker 1: always undercover, and you know, female spies are allowed to

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Speaker 1: be violent, which goes against the whole stereotypical understanding of

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Speaker 1: what it is to be feminine. And UM, A lot

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Speaker 1: of the commentary on the evolution of female spies in

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Speaker 1: television and in popular culture UM relates back to this, um,

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Speaker 1: this gendered our argument and basically says that you can

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Speaker 1: sort of use that evolution to track social changes among

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Speaker 1: women's roles in the workforce and just in their daily

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Speaker 1: lives as well, sort of the tracking the empowerment of

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Speaker 1: women over the years. Yeah, and they talk. There's definitely

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Speaker 1: a moving away from the seductress the film fatale of

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Speaker 1: villainous to the good female spy quote unquote and the

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Speaker 1: new woman who was often um, she's killing for the

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Speaker 1: right reasons, for her government, for her country, for her agency,

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Speaker 1: whatever underground secret thing it might be, or the CIA

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Speaker 1: or whatever whatever that particular show is using. But um, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this new woman, White writes is rarely depicted as maternal,

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Speaker 1: and she's more often situated within the professional workplace. So

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Speaker 1: it's a woman going to work and work just happens

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Speaker 1: to be a secret spy agency, which is super cool,

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Speaker 1: which means that it's really handy for TV shows to

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Speaker 1: have these these spy characters because they can just do

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Speaker 1: whatever they want because one day she could be at Langley.

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Speaker 1: The next day for the next hour, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: she could be in China or cord it's so easily

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Speaker 1: be in China in an hour because that's spy technology.

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Speaker 1: You can't also can't argue with spy technology, right, if

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Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense, it doesn't matter. It's for spies. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I just watched The Guineas last night, and you know

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Speaker 1: that one kid has oil that comes out of his shoes.

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Speaker 1: I mean they might have something like that, but rockets

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Speaker 1: come out of their shoes. Yeah, and you can get

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Speaker 1: to China in an hour. Yeah, thanks to that. And

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Speaker 1: they're always pretty well dressed. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: it seems like too there's a lot of conflict in

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Speaker 1: their personal life. You know, they're really busy and they're

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Speaker 1: obviously like well educated and smart and can shape shift

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Speaker 1: and speak different languages. But when shape shift, when the

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Speaker 1: when the mission is over, all they have is a

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Speaker 1: cat to feed. Ah dang, that's like a batman with

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Speaker 1: Cat Woman. She's not a spy, but she comes home

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Speaker 1: to her cats and way, that's not that's off topic,

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Speaker 1: but it made me think I kind of had my

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Speaker 1: own own theory about all this sort of riffing off

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Speaker 1: what Rosie White was writing about in Violent Films is

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Speaker 1: that it's also this whole spy genre as it applies

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Speaker 1: to women is also kind of I don't know a

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Speaker 1: vehicle for talking about that whole women can have it

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Speaker 1: all conflict of having like the killer cool job and

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Speaker 1: the jet setting and everything like that, but there always

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Speaker 1: seems to be some kind of some missing piece in

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Speaker 1: these characters lives. Unless your Cinnamon Carter from Mission Impossible

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Speaker 1: and she just keeps it cool all the time. She

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Speaker 1: never seen it. Mission Impossible in nineteen sixty six premieres.

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Speaker 1: That's when during that first spy craze, when things kind

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Speaker 1: of shifted back to from the farce with Gets Smart,

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Speaker 1: which came out in nineteen sixty five, back to Mission

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Speaker 1: Impossible and oh man. I watched a lot of Mission

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Speaker 1: Mission Impossible on TV Land and it's good stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I have a much more limited experience with spy characters.

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Speaker 1: I pretty much was was La fem Nikita all the

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Speaker 1: way and I really haven't. I haven't identified with the

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Speaker 1: news by my sister in law. I got her into

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Speaker 1: the fem Nikita and then she started watching Alias and

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Speaker 1: she tried to get me into it. She's like, it's

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Speaker 1: just like the fem Nikita and some apparently saying some

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Speaker 1: of the characters came over, like the woman. If any

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Speaker 1: of you out there watched the fem Niquita, the woman

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Speaker 1: who played Madeline was also on the show, and then

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Speaker 1: then she was also on twenty four because a lot

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Speaker 1: of the fem Nikita Femniquita people went over to twenty four. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I think, do you have a secret fan blog from Niquita? No,

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Speaker 1: but I did. Used to have a geo Citi's website.

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Speaker 1: Sorry you can't find a geo Cities got blown up

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Speaker 1: by the internet, um where I talked a lot about it.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't exactly fancy still exists. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: lost a whole piece in my life, but I feel

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Speaker 1: like we do need to go back before fem Nikita,

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Speaker 1: to those early sixties female spies, especially the ones in

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Speaker 1: The Avengers who not only um brought about the whole

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Speaker 1: female spine in a cat suit when when we had

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Speaker 1: to start wearing leather cats suits because obviously it's so

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Speaker 1: easy to move around in an entire leather body suit

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Speaker 1: and it's breathable. I'm surely no sweating um. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of these uh commentators, but a lot of these

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Speaker 1: writers attribute m Appeal, Modesty Blaze and Mrs Emily Polifax

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Speaker 1: for really changing the narrative for female spies on television

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Speaker 1: because they were a lot more serious and yes they

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Speaker 1: were attractive and stylish and mad, but they were getting

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Speaker 1: the job done. Yeah, and they were emerging as real

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Speaker 1: protagonists and heroes rather than just being like the Bond

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Speaker 1: girls emerging from the surf and bikinis down Barry Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so m Pele her character was brilliant, known

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Speaker 1: for her cat suit, and that show The Avengers was

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Speaker 1: stuff had a pretty good run. And while The Avengers

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Speaker 1: of Get Smart, and Agent ninety nine played by Barbara

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Speaker 1: Feldon is trapped in this telephone booth and she's wearing

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Speaker 1: I'm stuck in this booth. Oh yeah, I'm wearing a diamond.

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Speaker 1: Oh it was a sitcom. I'm covering. I'm covering my

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Speaker 1: my headphone because I don't want to I don't want

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Speaker 1: out of it. And and that's when I learned that

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Speaker 1: diamonds can really get you out of a jam educational programming,

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Speaker 1: unless it's a blood diamond. Oh yeah, we don't want

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Speaker 1: to mess with that with the whole other podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was. She was protecting the gentleman on the show.

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Speaker 1: Um a lot of the time. She had to sort

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Speaker 1: of rescue him from himself because he was kind of bumbling.

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Speaker 1: He was such a goof, goof. Uh yeah. And then

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Speaker 1: if we're going chronologically, we had La fem Nikita with

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Speaker 1: Nikita played by Peter Wilson. That show ran from ninety

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Speaker 1: seven to two thousand one. We have Alias, which is

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Speaker 1: right after that which Jennifer Garner played Sydney Bristow from

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Speaker 1: two thousand one to two thousand and six. And what

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Speaker 1: I thought was interesting was that there's this quote by j. J. Abrams,

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Speaker 1: he would have loved to make a show this is

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Speaker 1: pre Alias. Obviously, he would love to make a show

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Speaker 1: where Felicity was a spy. And so here she is

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Speaker 1: like this innocent little college girl in love with torn

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Speaker 1: between these two guys, Ben and Nol. Yeah, Been and Noll.

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Speaker 1: And you know how fun would it be if she

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Speaker 1: didn't know about? Would she wouldn't? But Jennifer Garner co

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Speaker 1: starred one season on Felicity as Knowles like former flame

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Speaker 1: really and then Netflix, we're putting together all the nieces

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Speaker 1: of this spy history almost sort of fit together. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so I thought that was cool, Like he

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Speaker 1: this spy show with this like sweet college girl, and

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Speaker 1: he and sunmaking a show Alias where a girl who

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Speaker 1: has just a woman woman who has just graduated college

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Speaker 1: or grad school or something, is recruited. Yeah, and she

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Speaker 1: she kicks, but yeah, wears wigs and stuff. And it's

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Speaker 1: on from two thousand and one to two thousand and six.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, in the early two thousand's, that's when it

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Speaker 1: seems like we have this, uh real shift in the

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Speaker 1: number of leading female spies on television. And I believe

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Speaker 1: it's Rosie White who attributes that to UM the earlier shows,

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Speaker 1: including Buffy the Vampire Slayer which came out it was

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Speaker 1: on from two thousand three, so there's some overlap, but

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Speaker 1: shows like Xena, Buffy, UM, even the remake of Charlie's Angel,

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Speaker 1: she says, and Laura Croft tamb Reader's care Her helped

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Speaker 1: fuel this new female action hero that then possibly bled

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Speaker 1: into this female spy genre, right, And Buffy is and

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Speaker 1: was so incredibly popular. I mean, I know, I watched

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Speaker 1: didn't have before. Careful at no, I know, not not

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Speaker 1: to insult. Maybe I just don't grew it. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so there's like this whole slew of butt

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Speaker 1: kicking ladies, and well, I was just watching Felicity. God,

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Speaker 1: I love Hey, don't I loved Felicity. I watched that too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was just thinking the other day that I would

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Speaker 1: I would watch all of that on Netflix again if

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Speaker 1: it were available. I don't know if it is, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: not that I have time, but if I did anyway.

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Speaker 1: So now, nowadays we have Covert Affairs starring Piper paarabout

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Speaker 1: as Annie Walker, and she is super undercover, like she's

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Speaker 1: the traditional thing we think of when we think of

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Speaker 1: a spy, like she works for the CIA. None of

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Speaker 1: her friends and family know that the spy. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: just know she has this job like whatever, doing whatever,

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Speaker 1: working with the government maybe, But yeah, she actually has

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Speaker 1: to lie about being a spy. And there's all these

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Speaker 1: rules for her life, like she's very structured. She can't

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Speaker 1: date foreigners and you know, all sorts of stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But she has great hair. Meanwhile, she was looks very

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Speaker 1: sharp in her suit. That's the thing with all of this. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I actually ran across a Marie Claire article that was

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Speaker 1: how to dress like a spy because they're always female.

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Speaker 1: Spies are always so well dressed on television exactly. We'll

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Speaker 1: get back, like, I can't go much longer without talking

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Speaker 1: about her. And then we've got to mention Sarah Walker,

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Speaker 1: the character in Chuck that's been on since two thousand seven,

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Speaker 1: and she kind of falls under that helpful spy operative

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Speaker 1: because she has to, um, she has to protect the

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Speaker 1: bumbling hero, right, just like Age nine nine. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then we have a show that's actually gotten a ton

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Speaker 1: of positive attention in the media, which is Homeland starring

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Speaker 1: Claire Danes as Carrie Matheson, and that just started this

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Speaker 1: season on Showtime, I believe, and her character suspects that

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Speaker 1: a recovered prisoner of war is an Al Qaeda operative,

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Speaker 1: and so she's trying to prove all this stuff. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: she has bipolar disorder, but she can't take medicine for

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Speaker 1: it because if it gets out that she's taking medicine,

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Speaker 1: then she could compromise her credibility and all this stuff. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we're talking about, um, you know, femininity, masculine traits,

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Speaker 1: being a spy, being undercover, being tough and beautiful and

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Speaker 1: you know, having it all and um, what's interesting is

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Speaker 1: a look at taking a look at Nikita. Uh, particularly

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Speaker 1: Peter Wilson's character, because that's what I know everything about. Um. Anyway, Um,

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Speaker 1: she was taken straight out of jail, taken off the streets,

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Speaker 1: and taught how to be a proper quote unquote proper

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Speaker 1: woman because she was this really rough, like punky street

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Speaker 1: urchin type girl who was falsely accused of murdering a

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Speaker 1: police officer. So she's in al she's going to be executed,

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Speaker 1: and uh, they they somehow get her out of jail

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Speaker 1: and she wakes up in this cell and she is

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Speaker 1: trained how to be a killing machine. But she has

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Speaker 1: the character of Madeline teaching her how to be like

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Speaker 1: proper because you know, she's she's really rough. She's kind

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Speaker 1: of rough round the edges. She's taught how to do

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Speaker 1: her hair, to her makeup, were a sexy dress, charm,

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Speaker 1: you know, live if she needs to. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: then she's also taught how to totally kill politicians and

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Speaker 1: you know, world leaders and whatnot. So it's it's interesting

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Speaker 1: the the the dichotomy. And similarly, Rosie White from The

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Speaker 1: Violent Fems Well from the book Not the Band Um

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Speaker 1: writes about Sydney Bristow from Alias that she represents the

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Speaker 1: new woman in the twenty one century economies of white

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Speaker 1: collar labor. She writes she's fetishized as a femay tal,

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Speaker 1: an active woman who kills yet also occupies the role

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Speaker 1: of central protagonist and world touchstone. Right, Yeah, because, um,

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Speaker 1: both of them are are sort of thrown into these situations.

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Speaker 1: And like Nikita, she is she's a tool of this agency.

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Speaker 1: So you know, we had kind of talked about like

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Speaker 1: the right killing for the right reasons earlier. So she's

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Speaker 1: a tool of this international agency that's meant to kill

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Speaker 1: bad guys and stuff. But she maintains her sensitivity in

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Speaker 1: that she's like, oh my god, I can't just kill

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Speaker 1: all these random people. And so she's sort of fighting

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Speaker 1: back against that, and she maintains her whole the whole show.

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Speaker 1: She's struggling to maintain her humanity and remain sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, a woman underneath all of this like really

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Speaker 1: tough killing machine stuff. So and I think the same

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Speaker 1: is true for Sydney. Um, she was recruited into a

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Speaker 1: secret organization. She finds out that they're actually some bad guys,

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Speaker 1: some of the bad guys, and she goes to the

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Speaker 1: CIA with this information and it turns out that her

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Speaker 1: father is also in the secret organization, and but they're

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Speaker 1: both they both become double agents or her father's already

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Speaker 1: double agent or whatever, and they both come from like

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Speaker 1: really shadowy backgrounds. Nikita doesn't know her mother, hasn't seen

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Speaker 1: her mother since she was a child, and Sydney thought

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Speaker 1: her mother was dead or something, and her mother's actually

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Speaker 1: Russian spy. That's a that seems like Another commonality is

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Speaker 1: a strange relationship with one or both parental figures. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or just like the hero of mythology or any story

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Speaker 1: across cultures, you know, the hero comes from shadowy backgrounds

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Speaker 1: to come up through the ranks and combat the status

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Speaker 1: quo and save the day. Yeah, and perhaps challenge gendered

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Speaker 1: stereotype in this case. Who knew. I'm getting all worked

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Speaker 1: up about about Nikita. I'm gonna have to watch that.

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Speaker 1: Which is I will loan you all of the seasons.

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Speaker 1: Please do use a new show. Um, well, I know

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Speaker 1: that we haven't talked about all of the uh, all

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Speaker 1: the female spy characters on TV by any stretch of

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Speaker 1: the imagination, but we just highlighted some of those leading ladies.

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Speaker 1: And I'll be really curious to see just from listeners,

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Speaker 1: what what women that we did not mention and shows

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Speaker 1: that we really did not UM didn't highlight if they

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Speaker 1: have a take on that, and also why other people

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Speaker 1: think that there are so many female spies on television? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: do you enjoy watching them more or less than male spies?

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Speaker 1: You know, do you like watching the ladies kick butt?

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Speaker 1: Because another contrast to UM, A lot of leading male spies,

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Speaker 1: a lot of times they are typically either they're they're

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Speaker 1: motivated because of some love, some long term like woman

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Speaker 1: who's either been lost or is haunting in some kind

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Speaker 1: of way. And it seems like a lot of times

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Speaker 1: with the female spies they're more romantically to t exactly

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Speaker 1: because if you look at the Michael character and the

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Speaker 1: fem Nikita, he had this great love that he lost

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Speaker 1: and he's like dead inside, so he might as well

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Speaker 1: be killing machine and then Nikita reawakens them. So whereas

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Speaker 1: women are often portrayed as these honeypots, these these spies ductresses,

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Speaker 1: in reality, perhaps you know, men are the motionally more vulnerable. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're they're a little damage, so they kill people. M hmm. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: so much to think about. Yeah, well, let us know

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Speaker 1: what you think about female spuzzle on television. Mom Stuff

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Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot Com is our email address,

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Speaker 1: and we got a couple of emails here to share already.

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Speaker 1: This is from Kevin about our romance novel podcast. I

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Speaker 1: heard you guys comment about amnesia related romance novels and

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Speaker 1: it reminded me of my friend Lara Krigger's deconstruction of

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Speaker 1: the Harlequin romance novel pregn Asia. No, I'm not making

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Speaker 1: that up. I wish I were. If you want to laugh,

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Speaker 1: here's a link to the summary of Lara live tweeting

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Speaker 1: the book while she read it. The plot is Da

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Speaker 1: Da Dat Special and if you want to read that,

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Speaker 1: go to storify dot com pregn Asia. It's incredible. I've

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Speaker 1: got an email here, also about romance novels, and this

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Speaker 1: is coming from Mallory, who has been reading romance for

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Speaker 1: about seven years and it's critically studying it in college,

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Speaker 1: she says her master thesis was on gender ideology and

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Speaker 1: romance novel heroines who cross dress. Listening, she writes, please

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Speaker 1: don't subscribe to the idea that romance is full of

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Speaker 1: heroines who are too stupid to live or who serve

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Speaker 1: as shells for the reader. There are plenty of smart, funny,

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Speaker 1: and high achieving romance novel heroines don't sell the genre short.

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Speaker 1: Women who read romance have to defend their reading habits

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Speaker 1: both on gender and class fronts, and the genre itself

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Speaker 1: tends to be pretty self reflective. Romance, for the most part,

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Speaker 1: is written by women, for women and about women, and

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Speaker 1: that maybe why women in particular find it so enjoyable

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Speaker 1: to read. There aren't many sources of pop pop culture

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Speaker 1: dot Com is the email find us on Facebook as well,

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