1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: Place your left hand on the vampible and raise your 2 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: right hand and repeat after me. I solemnly swear the 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: jury trying it attended not scilly this weekend in Ferguson 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: and around the country. It makes no sense. If it 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: doesn't fit, you must have quit. Judge, you are the 6 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: last line of reason in this case. Every one of 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: us took out all the hypothesis and we're sworn to 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is sworn. 9 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Philip Holloway. The George Supreme Court said 10 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: many years ago that the office of sheriff carries with 11 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: it the duty. I'm the shaff with the duty to 12 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 1: protect this community. M I've spent most of my life 13 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: inside the criminal justice system, in one capacity or another, 14 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: and along the way I've learned some truths. In this 15 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: podcast will take you inside the system to bring you 16 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: these truths, the good, the bad, and yes, even the 17 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: uncomfortable truths. Practically everybody in the system is sworn to 18 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: one oath or another. I've lost town of all the 19 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: oaths I've taken and the things I've been sworn to do. 20 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: But imagine you're a sheriff. An elected sheriff, you're sworn 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: to not only uphold the law, but to get justice, 22 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: justice and answers, answers for your community, justice for victims. 23 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: But despite your very best efforts, justice eludes you. Answers 24 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: elude you. In this episode, we explore this issue in 25 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: the context of the Lake o'coni Murphy. I live in Atlanta, 26 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: and I remember very well the day back in May 27 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: when some really bad news broke an elderly retired couple, 28 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: Russell and Shirley Derman, had been murdered. The details of 29 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: it were odd enough that this couple living in this 30 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: gated community, a wealthy couple um with no apparent enemies 31 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: or anything, that have been brutally murdered. And then once 32 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: you looked more into it and found out more details, 33 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 1: it just became more and more of a mystery. People 34 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: were just mystified. How did anyone, how did this happen? 35 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: How did anyone even get inside the community? You know, 36 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: who would want to kill them? I mean they were 37 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: a retired couple. I mean they were in their eighties. 38 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: I think there was just a lot of speculation going on. 39 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: Um a neighbors in the town. I mean this is 40 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: a small community. You know, it was such a bizarre 41 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: crime that people's minds kind of you know, wanted to 42 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: the extreme as far as trying to figure out what 43 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: may have been the cause. This is Christian Boon, a 44 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: reporter for the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. For the past 45 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: three years, Christian has covered this case heavily, keeping it 46 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: in the public side as much as he possibly could. Inevitably, 47 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: with no new leads to follow, the case has grown 48 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: cold and it's media coverage has become scarce. But to Christian, 49 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: this case has never really left his mind. So I 50 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: reached out to him because I wanted to know how 51 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: this case compared in terms of its unusual nous to 52 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: all the others that he's covered over the years. I 53 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: put it at the top because there's no you know, 54 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: there seems to be no explanation for it, and there's 55 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: just so many things about the actual murderer that don't 56 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: add up. You know, when you're trying to find an 57 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: explanation or or any kind of motive, you keep hitting 58 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: the dead end because was it robbery? Will know nothing 59 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: was stolen, you know, and then this the cleanliness of 60 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: the murder at least parts of it, is it professional, Well, 61 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: it seems that way, but then there's other parts of 62 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: it would seem, you know, kind of haphazard. It seems 63 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: like someone was trying to send a message, but to 64 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: whom and for what for what reason? Is is what 65 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: we still don't know. Rails Plantation is very exclusive community. 66 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: It's a lot of retirees, a lot of people. I mean, 67 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: you've gotta have money to live there. But it's sort 68 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: of nestled into a small town of Eatonton. There's kind 69 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: of surrounds it or is nearby. It's very quiet. I mean, 70 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: if you little very little crime, there barely any any 71 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: crime at all happens. I mean there's crime, but I 72 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: mean you don't have a lot of murders or certainly 73 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: and you know a lot of bole crime and I 74 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: mean a lot of times. You know, we'll cover these things. 75 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: We will have a good idea what happened or at 76 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: least some sense of who is at least suspected. In 77 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: this one, there was no there was really nowhere to start. 78 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: And part of this place to the fact that no 79 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: one knew what had happened. I mean, there were no 80 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: ransom note or anything like that. And that led a 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: lot of I mean, I don't know if panics the 82 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: right word, but a lot of people were, you know, 83 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: JUSTI probably scared. As you know, these people are obviously 84 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: gonna lose. What are they after? I mean, what is 85 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: their motive here? I mean, are these just random thrill 86 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: killers or are they you know, something else. This case 87 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: was different in that the sheriff. Sheriff Howard Sills is 88 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: about as media friendly as you can get. Like he 89 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: throws it all out there. He'll tell you if I 90 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: don't have anything, I don't have anything. He's unique in 91 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: that aspect. The problem is it's sort of hard to 92 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: advance the story because really the coverage that's been going 93 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: on after I guess about the first six months has 94 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: been anniversary stories. It's been three years. We still don't 95 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: know what happened. I mean, I've written a few in 96 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: the in the interim where there has been some you know, 97 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: some there was a crime in New York that was 98 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: similar and maybe this is there can be some connection made. 99 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: But reporting on substantial leads or or anything that may 100 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, advanced the story, advanced the investigation itself. It's 101 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: really been hard. Somebody knows something. Somebody saw something, maybe 102 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: not I've known what they saw. But you also have 103 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: to keep in mind too, You know, there are a 104 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: lot of crimes that go and solved, and the more 105 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: time passes to the less likely this is to get solved, 106 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: keeping it in the public's attention as much as you can, 107 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: it's sort of the best bet to finally get an answer. 108 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: The Putnam County Sheriff's Office is trying to find a 109 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: missing woman whose husband was found murdered this morning. They're 110 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: trying to locate eight seven year old Shirley Dermott. They 111 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: believe that she might be the victim of a kidnapping. 112 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: Investigators were called to the Great Waters community on Lake 113 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: o'coney and Putnam County this morning. They were called after 114 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: friends went in to check on the Dermot's and found 115 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: eighty eight year old Russell Derman dead. Shirley Dermott is 116 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: five ft two inches tall and one dred and forty 117 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: eight pounds, with gray hair and blue eyes. They believe 118 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: that she was possibly abducted. They think that the crime 119 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: happened between Friday and Sunday. If you've got any information, 120 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: you can call the Putnam County Sheriff's office at seven 121 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: oh six eight five eight five well May, the six 122 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: eight year old Russell Derman was found beheaded in the 123 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: garage of his home on Lake o'coney. Russell Derman's head 124 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: was nowhere to be found, and his wife, eight seven 125 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: year old Shirley Derman, she also was nowhere to be found. 126 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: A massive search for Shirley Derman was underway, operating under 127 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: the pretense that she may have been abducted. Hope dwindled 128 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: for Shirley's safe return as the days went on, and 129 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: on May six, ten days after police discovered Russell Derman's 130 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,559 Speaker 1: decapitated body in the garage of his own home, two 131 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: fishermen found the body of Shirley Derman floating in the 132 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: water of Lake o'coney, about six miles away from the 133 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: Dermans residents. A fisherman reportedly found the body in Lake 134 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: yo Coney, several miles from her home in the Great 135 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: Waters community. Law enforcement was now officially working a double 136 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: homicide case. This was not your ordinary double homicide case. 137 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: This was an act of savagery. The Dermans lived in 138 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: the upscale community of Great Waters on Lake o Coney 139 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: in central Georgia, about seventy miles east of Atlanta. The 140 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: surrounding area contains a unique blend of indigenous residents ranging 141 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: from lower to middle class, and an affluent population of 142 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: retirees and vacation homes for the wealthy. Lake o Coney 143 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: spans nearly thirty miles across three different counties, with three 144 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy four miles of shoreline and a surface 145 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:01,239 Speaker 1: area of over eighteen thousand acres. The was built originally 146 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: by Georgia Power in nineteen seventy nine, and the lake 147 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: now serves as a popular getaway destination for tourists. The 148 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: lake has nearly a dozen boat marinas and several high 149 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: end golf courses. The Dermans lived in Putnam County, a 150 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: quiet and reserved community of only about twenty thousand residents. 151 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: In such a remote place and what's regarded as a 152 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: safe and relatively affluent area, how does a wealthy retired 153 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: couple become the victims of a brutal and savage double murder. 154 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: That's a question that Putnam County Sheriff Howard Sills would 155 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: really like to do. Howard Sills was and still is 156 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: in charge of this case. He's worked it tirelessly for 157 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: the past three years, since the day they received the 158 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: nine one one call. The Sheriff Sills has a track 159 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: record that's well more than impressive. He solved every homicide 160 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: case he's worked on in the past elarty years except 161 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: this one. You've got to wonder what does it feel 162 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: like to have such a successful career in law enforcement, 163 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: solving crimes through your community, and then to become part 164 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: of one of the biggest unsolved murder cases in the 165 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: history of the entire state of Georgia. I called up 166 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: Sheriff Still to ask him that very question. His answer 167 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: find out after a quick word from our sponsors, Howard 168 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: Seal Riff Still. This is Philip Holloway from the Sworn Podcast. 169 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for talking with us today. Thanks 170 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: for John Sheriff. If we can just start talking a 171 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: little bit about you. How long have you been the 172 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: sheriff there in Putnam County? Uh see, twenty years and 173 00:10:53,600 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: almost five months. Yeah, this is still a small community. Well, 174 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: if I was fully staffs, I might have about seventy personnel. 175 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: But I've always hand all the homicides personally. And I 176 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: say that, I mean I directed the investigation. I don't 177 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: mean I worked the revenge of it myself. I'm not 178 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: saying that at all. But but yet I still do that, 179 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: and I hope we're still small enough that I can 180 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: do that, and I've had I'm not trying to brag 181 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: when I'm sure they told you I've been fairly successful 182 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: over the years too well. And I'm sure that if 183 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: there's a case that you're unsuccessful with that has to 184 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: I thank you personally. Yeah, it is the most troubling 185 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: case of my career, which has been a very long career, 186 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: and it's quite candle, is kind of embarrassing to some extent, 187 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: and it's you question your you know, I find myself 188 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: question myself all the time. What if I not done 189 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: or what did I do wrong? Or you know that 190 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: type of thing. When this is really the only homicide 191 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: case I've ever been responsible that I was not successful? 192 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: What can you tell us about the Dermans? The Germans? 193 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: I did not know the Germans. And I don't get 194 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: me wrong, I probably know more people in Puttingam Canny 195 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: and any other individual Puttingham Canty. But they had retired 196 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: here after having a successful chain of fast food restaurants 197 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: and Metro Atlanta, had retired here in two thousand and 198 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: four and built a home in the Great Waters section 199 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: the Rentalds Plantation. Rentalds Plantation is in both Green and 200 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: Puttingham Canties, but the part that in Puttingham is called 201 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: Great Waters and had retired and has lived here quite 202 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: decently for a decade. West German was eight and as 203 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: its German was seven. They had three adult children, one 204 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: who lived in Nashville who lived still in Nashville, North Carolina, daughter, 205 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: one son that lives over near Panama City in Florida, 206 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: and another son that lives in the Jacksonville, Florida area. 207 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: What exactly did your office respond to that morning in May? 208 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: We had a call the bodies whether it reginally came 209 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: out on the radio, the bodies have been multiple bodies 210 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: had been found in a house and in Great Waters. 211 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: And I actually was the second unit on the scene. 212 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: When I say second union, I mean the first unit 213 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: was at the yards in front of me Um and uh, 214 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: what had happened? The Kentucky Derby was on May the third, 215 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: which is the day we think the crimes occurred. And uh, 216 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: the Germans were supposed to go to a Kentucky Derby party. 217 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: During the derby there within uh the Reynolds community within 218 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: Great Waters itself and all their friends that you spent 219 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: them to be there, and they didn't show up. Uh, 220 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: but I mean nobody was alarmed at that juncture. Uh. 221 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: And then on Sunday and Monday, their friends that called them, 222 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: nobody answered the phone. So finally on Tuesday morning, uh, 223 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: some of their friends went over. This was not the 224 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: next door neighbor, but within the gated Great Waters area 225 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: finally went over to the house to see make sure 226 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: everything was okay. So if and uh finance entering the house, well, 227 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: not immediately, but after walking through the house a while, 228 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: they discovered Mr Dermo's body in the garage and us 229 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: the body had been decapitated, and uh obviously this alarmed them. 230 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: Just say the least, where was Mr Dermot's head. We 231 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: don't know whoever did this took it with. It was 232 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: a very clean cut down near the uh just right 233 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: about the collar area. I don't mean to say surgical, 234 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: but it was very clean, very clean cut with a 235 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: knife of some sort that uh, just right about the collar. 236 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: If you had a T shirt own and used the 237 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: T shirts collar as a line. I don't mean it's 238 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: that exact now, but you know it was fairly smooth 239 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: cut and completely removed, and the body was lying on 240 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: the floor in the back of the garage. The people 241 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: who found the body, they opened the door to the garage. 242 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: From that vantage point, you couldn't even see the body. 243 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: He actually had to go to some steps to see it. 244 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: And that's basically all we saw at that home. There 245 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: was no sign of for century. There was a house 246 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: with this section of the few odd stands in the kitchen. 247 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: The bed was unmade in the bedroom. Other than that, 248 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: the house was an immaculate condition, almost like stage, you know, 249 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: a real estate company or something. Almost absolutely no signs 250 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: were struggled, Absolutely no signs of forced entry at all. 251 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: They did have an alarm system that was functional, but 252 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: obviously it was not home at the time. We didn't 253 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: know where Mrs Derman was for almost fifteen days. Obviously, 254 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: with Miss Dermont not being there we had even though 255 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: their ages and background I learned as quickly as I 256 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: could at that time, would not have indicated that Miss 257 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: Derman would have been a perpetrator. While we didn't rule 258 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: out that she possibly was not involved in the murder. 259 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: We also because of all the factors of their age 260 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: and things like that, we initially weren't the case, seeming 261 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: that she had been abducted. But her body surfaced about 262 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: five and a half miles away down Lake o'cony near 263 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: the dam. Actually some fishermen saw it. We would have 264 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: found it that day. At that point in time, I 265 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: still I still had deputies and patrol boats patrolling the lake. 266 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: We were still looking for the possibility of evidence connected 267 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: with this, and the body floated up. Mrs Derman was 268 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: hit two or more times in the head with the 269 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: blunt objects of some sort that penetrated their skull two 270 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: times at least, maybe more than two. Uh. Could have 271 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: been a hammer, could have been a stick, could have 272 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: been you know, something like that. And Mr Derman, well, 273 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: Mr Burman died as a result of his head being removed, 274 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: There's no doubt about that. But he wasn't alive when 275 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: he was removed. If you've ever seen him our Tira womb, 276 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: you trust me, I severed artery. Unfortunately, if you ever 277 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: been in the situation, and I have on more than 278 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: one occasion, ah, it leaves a lot of blood and 279 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: a lot of different places and that did not exist. 280 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: But you could tell by the wound itself whether a 281 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: person was dead. When when you die, your heart is 282 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: not pumping anymore, so the blood blood doesn't flow like that. 283 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: The blood that was present in the garage was blood 284 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: that drained out of the corass cavity. I guess it's 285 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: proper term. You know where the head was onto the floor. 286 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: The pathologists, as the results of examining the body can 287 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: tell you absolutely for certain that he was dead when 288 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: the head was kind of Did he have any other 289 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: wounds besides the decapitation. There was a slight wound on 290 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: on one of the hands, probably a defensive wound of 291 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: some sort. We had a little bit of trouble here 292 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: and there in this case. And uh, I hate to 293 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: get you know, not much of a TV man, but 294 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: you know it's program forty eight hours. Having worked many, many, 295 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: many murders in my career many besides that, saying in 296 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 1: forty eight hours is very true, true thing. We are 297 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: relatively certain they were killed on Saturday, and we know 298 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: for a fact we didn't get the call to ten 299 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: o'clock on Tuesday morning. That's one factor. We have absolutely 300 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: no witnesses that saw anything, and immediate next to our 301 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: neighbor was in Asia. At the time, they lived at 302 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: the end of a cult de sac. There was no 303 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: house on the other side, and these and I want 304 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: you to understand that I don't know what the percentage is, 305 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: but I would say a third of the homes, even 306 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: though these are me and not homes and things like that, 307 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: a third of these homes are not full time resid 308 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: decapitation murders are hell, they're not five or six in 309 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: this country in a year, and in the last three 310 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: years there's only been one where the head was removed 311 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: and not at the scene besides this one. And at 312 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: least the best of our investigative abilities, that's what we've 313 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: learned of. And listen, we've thing on top of the 314 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: pretty pretty close. But that's that's a rarity in itself. 315 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: So I knew the minute I saw that that that 316 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: this was going to be a different case. That seems 317 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: almost like somebody took it as a trophy. It does, 318 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: but professionally and I can't articulate at this point in time, 319 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to think so, but I don't think that's 320 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: what happened. I think that if whoever took it took 321 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: it to prevent us from finding evidence in it. You 322 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: know a lot of these things, decapitations and things like that, 323 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: they're sending out a message their position in the body. 324 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: You know, they you know that that wasn't the case. 325 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: The body is just kind of laying there, you know, 326 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: where it dropped. You know, they did not want anybody 327 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: to find this body for a while. Whoever did it, 328 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: They've taken some towels and stuff and kind of made 329 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: a little damn to keep the blood from running out 330 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: up under the garage door where it would have been 331 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: seen from the out side. So they didn't want anybody 332 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: to know. And obviously they who ever did this, I 333 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: certainly thought that we would never find miss German. That 334 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: takes away from the professional aspect of somebody a professional killer. 335 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: Because of professional killer, a lot of the things would 336 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: have been different, but they would have known that body 337 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: would have still been able to come up to Is 338 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: it possible that the head contained evidence in the nature 339 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: of maybe a bullet absolutely could have contained DNA. That 340 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: could have been some sort of scuffle, you know, I mean, 341 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've been like me, You've been in a 342 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: fist fight before, and it didn't like on television, we 343 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: hit somebody's head with your hand, usually you will get 344 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: it cut. Your blood may end up on there too, 345 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: you know. And I thought, I think recently the Grinstead 346 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: case that took twelve years before somebody made a call 347 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: and identified to people that I'm sure that the g 348 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: b I and other law force nat season were involved 349 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: in that investigation of everything in the world that could 350 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: was my understanding. You know that these people that they 351 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: arrested weren't even on the radar initially. And uh, I 352 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: think that's what I'm gonna have to have here. I'm 353 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: confident more than one personal and involved in this, and 354 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: what I need is that I need that same kind 355 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: of phone Carl. Those of you who followed our sister 356 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: podcast up and vanished in the case of Terah Grinstead, 357 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: know that in every cold case, time is your worst enemy. 358 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: As the years go by and no new information surfaces, 359 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: the likelihood of ever solving the case becomes more and 360 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: more slim every day. But as Sheriff still says, all 361 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: it takes is that one phone call, that one piece 362 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: to this puzzle that can completely change the trajectory of 363 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: the investigation. Somebody out there knows something, They know what 364 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: happened to the Dermans, and one phone call, just one 365 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: could lead to the arrest and potentially conviction of the 366 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: person or persons responsible for this act of savagery. To 367 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: get that phone call, that one piece of valuable information, 368 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: oftentimes you've got to shake the trees, and you've got 369 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: to keep the case from going any colder and keep 370 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: it alive in the media. So what can he do 371 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: to get this case moving again? Well, I caught up 372 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: with an old friend of mine named John Dawes. John 373 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: investigates cold cases for a living, and he's been doing 374 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: it for a very long time, and is it just 375 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: so happens. He's very familiar with the Lake oh Cooney murders. 376 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: I've been involved in cold case work even in my 377 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: active career with the cop Coining Police Department. I had 378 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: been there for a long time and started pulling out 379 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: cold cases in two thousand nine and I actually brought 380 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: one to a town arrest pretty quick. And then when 381 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: I retired from the Copcunt Police Department in two thousand 382 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: and thirteen, I was contacted by the current District Attorney, 383 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: Vick Reynolds he had an idea to start a cold 384 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: case unit that would work out of the District Attorney's office. 385 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: A little bit different from your average cold case unit. 386 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: We're not embedded in one agency. We can actually assist 387 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: all seven agencies inside Cobb County. So uh, he asked 388 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: me if I would consider running that for him. I 389 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: told him I would be glad to do that. So 390 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: I started doing uh cold case solely in February two 391 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen. A case becomes cold when it's sat 392 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: for twelve months. Uh. That's the typical definition for a 393 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: cold cases is twelve months with no activity and no 394 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: forward movement towards the goal of identifying a suspect and 395 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: bringing it to prosecution. But the first thing that I 396 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: want to look at is the evidence, to make sure 397 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: that it's still held and it's been properly protect and 398 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: there's a good chain of custody on it, and I 399 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: want to see what's available because of you know, technology 400 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: grows daily and we found that we can do a 401 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: lot of things with evidence that's been sitting for years 402 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: and years that couldn't be tested. The other things that 403 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: you can do is is old school detective work. Maybe 404 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: not so much in a year, but over the course 405 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: of some years, witnesses parties to the incident itself sometimes 406 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: have a change of heart and a change of mind, 407 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: change their lifestyle a little bit, and they're more willing 408 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: to talk truth about the case than they were when 409 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: it occurred. Tell us a little bit about what an 410 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: investigator who finds themselves at a dead end might feel 411 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: when they feel like they just can't bring justice to 412 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: a victims family and they can't provide answers to the community. 413 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: It's literally sickening. First of all, if you're what I 414 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: call a real homicide detective, you live that case, you 415 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: eat it, breathe that, you sleep it. It's uh you 416 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: become a family member in your contacted by that family. 417 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: I have three cases from my active law enforcement preretirement 418 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: days that were unsolved, and one of them is is 419 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: now twenty two years old as of a few weeks ago, 420 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: and I still hear from that family and they're glad 421 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: that I'm that I'm running the cold case unit. I 422 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: still am looking at it. But it's a it's a 423 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: sick feeling that you've initially, I think when you get 424 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: to a year mark where you haven't solved it. You 425 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: you are confident that you have done everything that you 426 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: can do, but as the years go on, you begin 427 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: to question yourself. You begin to look at things and say, well, 428 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: maybe if I had done this, or if I had 429 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: done this differently. So it causes a lot of unrest. 430 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: It it loses sleep, headaches, high blood pressure, UH, family problems. 431 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: It's UH. It's very, very difficult for a homicide detective 432 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,959 Speaker 1: to accept that that you haven't found the slip up 433 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: that the bag guy made. Let's assume you have a 434 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: case that there's not a lot of forensic evidence in 435 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: the sense of DNA. Maybe you've got some blood spatter 436 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: and things like that that might tell you physically how 437 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: something happened, but doesn't necessarily point to where would you 438 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: go next? Who would you start looking at first? On 439 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: a case like that, you automatically go to family, and 440 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: that's a part of the victimology. You hope that the victimology, 441 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: the background of the victims, tells you something uh to 442 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: give you a direction to head in um talking about 443 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: criminal history, backgrounds, financial backgrounds, investment backgrounds, business owner backgrounds, partnerships, associations, 444 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that you can glean 445 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: from interviewing family and doing your background searches. The technology 446 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: that's available today is overwhelmingly wonderful. On a small percentage 447 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: of cases, it's a great assistant. But it all goes 448 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: back to old school detective work, beating on the doors 449 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: and knocking through the bushes trying to find answers. Uh 450 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: So I would go first to victimology from the crime scene. 451 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: There's a percentage of people out there who, through their 452 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: own selfish motives, bring injustice, and they for their own 453 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: selfish reasons, they'll take the life of another. So what 454 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: is the motive for murdering these two old people? Is 455 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: it financial gain for someone? Is it repayment of a 456 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: debt to someone? Somebody has a motive that's close knit 457 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: in that group. My first guest not knowing in the 458 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: case anymore than I do. These people lived in a 459 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: nice house on a nice piece of property that they 460 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: obviously had either good financial means or a tremendous amount 461 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: of debt. In this case, Mr Derman's head was removed 462 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: after he died. Does that surprise you? That's a message 463 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: if his identity is easily known because his body is there. 464 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: I don't know whether or not his head remained on 465 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: the scene near his body or was removed, But some 466 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: people would think, well, that way, his dental records can't 467 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: be checked if the head has gone, but his identity 468 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: identity can be established by their means. So I think 469 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: that a post mortem decapitation separating the head is a 470 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: message to who would find the body. Any number of 471 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: things are are possibilities, whether it was to deter identification UM, 472 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: which doesn't seem likely with a post mortem decapitation, if 473 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: that's the facts of the case. Ballistics is a potential possibility, 474 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: the exchange of touch DNA is A is a potential possibility. 475 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: But I had to look more at probability, and I 476 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: think the likely probability is the shock factor for the 477 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: person who finds that body. In terms of this case 478 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: or in cold cases in general, When all the rocks 479 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: that you have to look under have been looked under 480 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: and you've left no stone that you're aware of unturned, 481 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: what can you do? That's when you you turn to 482 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: other people, other agencies to keep having a different set 483 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: of eyes look at it. And there are any number 484 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: of veteran detectives with agencies all over the place. One 485 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: of the ways that we've formed the unit that I 486 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: have working for me and my my people are all 487 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: volunteering their time. But we've got a person who's pretty 488 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: much an expert in crime scene documentation. We've got someone 489 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: who's an expert in interviews and interrogations. We have someone 490 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: who's uh kind of an expert in report writing. We 491 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: have we have a narcotics professional, investigation professionals. So we 492 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: have a lot of different people who bring a different 493 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: aspect to each and every case that we open up. 494 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: So my suggestion when you reach that point that you 495 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: have gone through it and gone through it and gone 496 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: through it, and you're satisfied that you've looked at everything, 497 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: that's when you need a complete fresh set of eyes 498 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: to truly understand this case and its complexity. You need 499 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: case files. You need access to those case files. And 500 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: in the state of Georgia, the open records law states 501 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: that usually you can't have it. Law enforcement tends to 502 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: keep it to themselves if there's an open investigation. As 503 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: a former police officer, I can tell you that oftentimes 504 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: pride will get in your way. It's your job to 505 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: assure that the cases get solved. So you withhold certain 506 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: information to give yourself an investigative edge. For example, sometimes 507 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 1: investigators know that there are certain things that only the 508 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: criminal could possibly know, so they'll never release that. But 509 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: sometimes releasing information can generate interest, and generating interest could 510 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: generate that one phone call that could be so desperately needed. 511 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: But what if you still just can't solve it, and 512 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: you can't solve it for years? Are you doing more 513 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: harm by keeping these case files from the public? What 514 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: if they the public has the answer? Every law enforcement 515 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: agency and every officer. Quite frankly, they're different. And Sheriff 516 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: Howard Sills himself, the elected sheriff, is still in charge 517 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: of this case. George's open records laws don't require Shriff 518 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: sALS to keep anything to himself. He could publish it 519 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: all for the first time in the three years that 520 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: this case has been pending. Sheriff sALS has agreed to 521 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: meet with the Sworn podcast and open up his case 522 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 1: file in the Lake o Conei murders. So we arranged 523 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: to meet at his office, and I decided to bring 524 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: along a good friend of mine and probably of yours, 525 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: Payne Lindsay from up and Vanished. Yeah, okay, Pain, they 526 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: don't cant see him. It's kind of weird, you know, 527 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,719 Speaker 1: right now here, this close now to where this awful 528 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: murders who plays this makes me wonder what we're gonna 529 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: find when we get out here. You know, the sheriff 530 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: was real inviting on the phone, Pain, and he told us, 531 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, he's basically gonna open up his file to us. 532 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: That's so different than your experience with up in Vanish 533 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: with the police file. Oh, it's definitely. I mean, I 534 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: would love to have the case file and character instance 535 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: because I don't know what we're gonna get into when 536 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: we get out here. I really don't know what to expect. 537 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: But when the lead investigator, who happens to be the 538 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: county Sheriff's has come out here and look at my file, 539 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: that's just something I can't I can't turn down that opportunity. 540 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm Philip Halloway, I'm here to see Sheriff Sells. He's 541 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: expecting me, Yes, Philip Halloway, yesterday. Hey, how are you 542 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 1: going to follow? How you doing? George Lived? What I've 543 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: got is I've got a power point in Fellow. I 544 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: don't want to show you all pictures of everything. It 545 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: was frustrating more than anything else. Um, you've got two 546 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: horrific murders here of the elderly people that occurred in 547 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: my county and I haven't been able to uh figure 548 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: out who did it yet. And three years is a 549 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: long time. The George Supreme Court said many years ago 550 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: at the office of Share carries with it the duty 551 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: to preserve the peace, protect the lives, person's property, health, 552 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 1: and morals of the people. Now that kind of saysn't 553 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: that's your duty. I'm not some hired city police officer 554 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: that has the authority to do something. I'm not a 555 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: state patrolman that has the authority to do something on 556 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: public roadways. I'm the share with the duty to protect 557 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: this community. This is the Derman residence on Caroline Drive 558 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: and the Great Waters section of Reynolds Plantation here in 559 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: Putnam County out on Lake o'coney. We've used this with 560 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: other law enforcement agencies, only this has never been shown 561 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: to the public. The garage was a little bit of 562 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,879 Speaker 1: a lower level, and so when the people who found them, 563 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: when they first opened that door, that's what they saw, 564 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: which is nothing. You see the two cars and you 565 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: see the garage doors closed. The cars look very clean. 566 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: It's a hell of a lot cleaner than my garage 567 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: is in my house. When the man he found Mr 568 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: Drmin's body, when he saw that, he walks on down 569 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: and as you will see, this is what you see. 570 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: Oh my, this is I just I'm speechless. When I 571 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: walked back there and I saw that body there, and 572 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: then I didn't see the head. I was scared that 573 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: I was gonna be sitting here three years later not 574 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: knowing who did this. Next time on Sworn, the professional 575 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: killer will come in your house with a twenty two 576 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: or twenty two man and shoots you, hit and lead. 577 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: They're not gonna cut your damn yet. Get to hear 578 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: exclusive details from the crime scene and a new lead 579 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: that share Sells is still working on that may provide 580 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: the key to solving the Lake o'coni murders. Sworn is 581 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta. Story production and sound 582 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: design by Payne Lindsay. Executive producers Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. 583 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: And if you have it yet, please check out our 584 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: sister podcast, Up and Vantaged that follows the investigation into 585 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: the disappearance of Georgia high school teacher and beauty queen 586 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: Tera Grinstead Up and Vantaged is available now on Apple Podcasts. 587 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're 588 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: in the market for podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings 589 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: dot com to get your first episode produced for free. 590 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: I'd like to do a very special thank you to 591 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: Putnam County Sheriff Howard Sills, and to John Dawes, and 592 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: to Christian Boone, and last but not least, I want 593 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: to thank you the listeners for making Sworn the number 594 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: one podcast on iTunes before it was officially released. If 595 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 1: you haven't already, please head over to iTunes now to subscribe, rate, 596 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: and review Sworn, and make sure you check us out 597 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: online at sworn podcast dot com and follow us on 598 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: social media at sworn podcast on Twitter and Instagram. And 599 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 1: you can follow me your host, Philip Holloway at phil 600 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: holloway e s Q on Twitter. See shot