1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio. It's the big take. 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm West Cassova. Today companies are having to do more 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: to keep their best workers from walking. You've no doubt 4 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: seen the stories lately about tech companies that are laying 5 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: off thousands of people. But outside big tech, a lot 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: of companies in the US especially are having the opposite problem. 7 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: In this tight labor market, there are more jobs open 8 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: than workers willing to fill them. Potential hires are domainding 9 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: better pay and better treatment, and some employers are starting 10 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: to listen. My colleagues Nicole Bullock and Matthew Boyle in 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: New York are keeping a close eye on all of this. 12 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: For Workshift, that's a whole area of news coverage here 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg. That's all about the future of work. They're 14 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: here with me now to tell us about the ways 15 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: the relationship between employers and employees is changing. Nicole, I Matt. 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: You write all about ruptures and changes in the workplace, 17 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: and we are seeing a lot of them now. One 18 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: of the biggest is how many employers in this market 19 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: are having to change the way they do things to 20 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: attract and keep people. Matt, what does that look like 21 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: in the workplace. Well, yeah, Wes, it's really playing out 22 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: in sort of a multitude of ways. But one thing 23 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: that's that's clear, as you said, is that the number 24 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: of available jobs for every unemployed worker, I think it's 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: at around one point seven now. It had been as 26 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: high as two. I mean, that is amazing. And at 27 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: a time when we have all these changes to workplace 28 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: norms and the whole idea of you know, who we're 29 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: working for, where we work, why we work, is being upended, 30 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: changed and redefined. Companies are really scrambling to find highly 31 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: skilled people. So what they're gonna have to do is 32 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: it's just to get a bit more creative, you know, 33 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: Rather than just say here's the job, here's the salary, 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: it's now a conversation around can this job be remote? 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: How often can it be remote? What sort of benefits 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 1: are you going to give me? And is this the 37 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: job where I can find some purpose? We keep hearing 38 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: this word purpose. There is a strong sense that I've 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: seen that people also want to work for organization that 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: does have some sort of deeper purpose that aligns with 41 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: their values. I think what we've seen is a combination 42 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: of these supply demand dynamics that you talk about coming 43 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: right after a time that basically had a lot of 44 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: people around the world, not just in the US, really 45 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: kind of pushing the pause button on their daily grind, 46 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: which caused them to really reassess, against the backdrop of 47 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: a global pandemic, what they wanted out of their lives 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: in general, but also out of their work lives. Yes, 49 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: people were resigning, but it wasn't like you know what 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: you may have read that they were resigning to go 51 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: live on the beach or just sit in a hammock 52 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: all day. They were resigning for something better and whether 53 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: that was better pay uh, an organization that valued them 54 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: more or what. This reassessment is something that's still obviously 55 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: still ongoing. People still have tons of choices. It's been 56 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: maybe curtailed a bit in certain sectors, especially tech, where 57 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: you're seeing layoffs. We now have confirmation risk from Amazon 58 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: memo from the CEO to staff that they will be 59 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: cutting more than eighteen thousand jobs, as mentioned, much more 60 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: than previously expected going into the end of the year. 61 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: The parent of Snapchat plans to lay off about and 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: it's nearly employees. Facebook's parent Meta reportedly getting ready to 63 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: lay off what could be thousands of workers, one of 64 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: the biggest layoffs yet that we've seen. But again, you know, 65 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: compared to pre pandemic levels, layoffs are still below historical levels. 66 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: We have to remember that because we all get so 67 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: excited when Amazon and Salesforce layoff thousands of people. And 68 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: I'm not saying those aren't big moves, but historically, since 69 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: you know, people still have options. When you see a 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: tech worker post on LinkedIn, I just lost my job 71 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: at Meta or Salesforce, and within minutes you've got half 72 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: a dozen recruiters saying, you know, we've got something for you. 73 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: So it's really a sort of very active time right 74 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: now in the job market. So one of the interesting 75 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: aspects is the e cent to which this has persisted. 76 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: We're coming into what will be the fourth year of 77 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: the COVID reality and we're still talking about return to office, 78 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: working from home, flexible work. And a year ago, when 79 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: Matt and I first came together to write about workplace 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: topics in the Future of work, the discussion was, oh, 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: this will be over by the end of two and 82 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: it's not at all. In fact, you know, every day 83 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: we're writing about what any company from Apple to Harley 84 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: Davidson to any other brand name. You know, what they're 85 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: doing on a case by case basis to address the 86 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: push pull of what their workers want, what their culture 87 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: has been historically, and what bosses on the ground and 88 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: workers on the ground need to do to conduct their 89 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: daily life and be productive at the office or you 90 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: know whatever their workplaces. So let's talk about some specific examples. 91 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: You cover all kinds of companies and you look at 92 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: the ways that they're doing it, and there's a lot 93 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: of different ways. What are some companies that are really 94 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: leaning forward to attract new workers and keep the ones 95 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: they have happy. I mean Airbnb is a good example. 96 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: They got a lot of attention early in the pandemic 97 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: for their remote work policy. Basically, I think it was 98 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: one where not only did they say, you know, you 99 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: can work from anywhere, they also a liminated paytiers based 100 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: on whether you work remotely. That's a little known issue, 101 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: but a huge one. Let's say you're working in San 102 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: Francisco and you wanted to or needed to live in 103 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: in Boise, Idaho. Historically, a company like Airbnb or Meta 104 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: Facebook would say, Okay, that's fine, you're gonna take a 105 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: pay cut because you're living in a less expensive region 106 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: were compared to San Francisco. That's caused a lot of 107 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: companies to lose workers, especially as cities like Boise and 108 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: others have become much more popular places to live during 109 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: the pandemic because of the rise of remote work. So 110 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: what Airbnb did is just say, Okay, we're eliminating these 111 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: pay tiers based on location stuff and allow you to 112 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 1: work up to ninety days a year from any region 113 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: where Airbnb operates in. Of course, it helps that Airbnb 114 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: has millions of places you can live and work under 115 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: their rubric, and their employees probably get a little bit 116 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: of a discount there, But they want to work with 117 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: cities to learn more remote workers to those places. So 118 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: what's happening there, I think is one pretty fascinating example. 119 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: Another example that we've written about is Harley Davidson, and 120 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: this is an interesting one because their CEO has said 121 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: that he realized himself during the pandemic that flexible work 122 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,119 Speaker 1: was beneficial to his life and and so he thinks 123 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: that this is from a work life balance standpoint, great 124 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: for his employees. But he was also very forthcoming about 125 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: the fact that they're creating an e bike and they 126 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: need to attract the best and the brightest from places 127 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: like Tesla. So he's also using this policy as a 128 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: way to try to attract people who have this expertise 129 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: but are working at other places that may not be 130 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: so into offering that kind of flexibility. And you know, 131 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: Tesla is one of the main examples where Elon must 132 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: basically said you're coming in the office or you're fired. 133 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: So what happens to people who are working in say 134 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: New York City or San Francisco and they see that 135 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: people have moved to a lower cost city and they're 136 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: still making the same pay. Are they getting a pay 137 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: raiser they just started penalized for not moving out. Yeah, 138 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: so I must say, yeah, you're not going to get 139 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: additional pay if you stay in an expensive city like 140 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: San Francisco or New York. You're not going to get 141 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: combat at pay or something like that. But it is 142 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: again causing a real reassessment for people to think, Okay, 143 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, if I'm working at a company that is 144 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: going to dock me if I move to a less 145 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: expensive region of the world. To think of any how 146 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: many New Yorkers moved up to the cat skills and 147 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: are still up there. You know, it really makes you 148 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: think about is this the place where I want to be. 149 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: If my company is going to you know, reduce my 150 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: pay for living in a less expensive part of the country, 151 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: maybe I do need to be working somewhere else, you 152 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: know that won't do this. And Airbnb is a good example, 153 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: but there's many others over the past twelve eight months 154 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: that have eliminated those location based tiers as we call them, 155 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: just seeing that they're sort of a relic of the 156 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: past really and all of these interesting aspects around flexible 157 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: work or the ability to work in a flexible environment 158 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: or not. It's interesting that these have emerged as bargaining 159 00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: chips for both employees and employers, so both in terms 160 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: as we've talked about, as retention tools, but also as 161 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: ways to thin the ranks without actually announcing layoffs. So 162 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, you can say everybody needs to be back here, 163 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: or thank you for your service. You know, as the 164 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: economy is entering on certain times and has been on 165 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: certain times, this is also a way that companies can 166 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: do the opposite, right, they can maybe trimmed down a 167 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: bit without having to say we're laying off x number 168 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: of people. But the risk there is the people you 169 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: lose when you do that is probably your best people, 170 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: the people you do not want to lose it all, 171 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: who have the ability to just go down the street. Yeah. Interesting, 172 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: you know a good example of that. Potentially. We don't 173 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: know all the details in this, but at Twitter, Ellen said, 174 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, no more flexible work, and then had to 175 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: kind of walk back a little bit because you know, 176 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: perhaps too many people took him up on it. It's 177 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: closing its offices until Monday, the company facing, as we 178 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: now know, a mass exodus. This after, of course, you know, 179 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: must give employees and ultimatum to commit so a hardcore 180 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: environment or leave. Workers seemed to be taking the latter option, 181 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: and do seem to be leaving. Yeah. Not only did 182 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: you have to hire people back that he fired who 183 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: you realize either needed. It was also like, oh wait 184 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: a minute, may be flexible work, could you know be 185 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: a thing here? You know, which this is hilarious when 186 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: someone like that comes to this conclusion that we all 187 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: came too long ago, Nicole. Another thing that you hear 188 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: more and more about is this idea of moving to 189 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: a four day work week, which is something that employers 190 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: were just dismissed out of hand not too long ago, 191 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: and now it seems to be getting some traction. Yes, 192 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: that's that's true. This idea of doing a four day 193 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: work week, whether it's an actual four day Monday through Thursday, 194 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: have Friday off, or as sort of a catch all 195 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: for more flexibility, this is really taking hold. There's been 196 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: several pilots all over the world. Really, the one probably 197 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: that got the most attention was one in the UK. 198 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: And the range of companies that are doing these is 199 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: everything from a local fish and chip shop to uh 200 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: not in the UK, but Unilever is one of the 201 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: big names you know in terms of a large corporation 202 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: doing these, and and the early findings at least have 203 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: been that it does not affect productivity, so productivity does 204 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: not go down. And that's really the metric that perhaps 205 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: has has had this stick a bit more is the 206 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: concern is am I going to get the same amount 207 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: of work out of fewer hours. The other aspect of 208 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: this is that you work four days or thirty six 209 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: hours however you want to do that, but you keep 210 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: the same pay, right, that's the lynchpin here. So the 211 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: productivity really needs to stay there. What really struck me 212 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: the call with the four day work week pilot was 213 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: the amount of planning that doing this requires. You don't 214 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: just flip a switch on Monday and say, okay, guys, 215 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: now we're doing a four day workweek. Isn't this great? 216 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: I think one of the firms in the UK pilot 217 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: actually said something like, you know, planning for the four 218 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: day work we resulted in like six day work weeks 219 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: for us for a few months to figure out how 220 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: to get this right. Because there are many ways you 221 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: can do this. It's not just on Monday Thursday. It 222 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: could be based on hours, it could be based on rolls. 223 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: There are always going to be maybe certain roles where 224 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: you know this is just not going to suit. So 225 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: every company is different. Whether you're Unilever, which did the 226 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: results there, they did it in New Zealand and they're 227 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: actually extending it to Australia now, or you're just a 228 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: fish and chip shop in the UK that was also 229 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: doing this but trying to figure out, okay, how do 230 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: we do afford day work week but account for the 231 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: fact that you know, at certain times of the week 232 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: there's a huge demand for fish and chips of course, 233 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: so we want to have workers there. We don't want 234 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: everybody to be on their you know, day off on that. 235 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: So every business is certainly different here. But I think 236 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: the key really is the amount of planning that this 237 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: takes is substantial, and so not just going into this thinking, Okay, 238 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: this will be wonderful, we'll just flip a switch, Matt. 239 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: One of the aspects of the planning was starting by 240 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: having people look at what tasks they can eliminate. For example, 241 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, is there something that you're doing that that 242 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: you really don't need to be doing. And I think 243 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: that's part of the appeal here because if any of 244 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: us look at our schedules, I mean I can think 245 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: of probably three things that I do because they're just 246 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: part of the process that I've been doing for quite 247 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: a long time that really is not adding that much value. Yeah, 248 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: like meetings, for example, I mean, even if you don't 249 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: choose to do a four day work week, even if 250 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: you just reduce the number of recurring meetings, let's say, 251 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: or you know, useless meetings, that's probably a good thing 252 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: as well and a benefit to all. Now, Colin, Matt, 253 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: please stay with me. We'll continue our conversation after the break, 254 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: Matt Before the break, you mentioned how a lot of 255 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: people think that cutting back on meetings would make our 256 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: work lives better. At the beginning of the year, at 257 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: least one well known company actually announced they were killing 258 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: most meetings. Do you think that's a worker meetings just 259 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: gonna keep creeping back? Well, yeah, I mean that's the 260 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: thing with I mean, Shopify is sort of become a 261 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: poster child for this. They announced a new policy at 262 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: the beginning of this year where they were going to 263 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 1: get rid of every recurring meeting with more than two 264 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: people and limit big meetings to just one six hour 265 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: window on Thursday, So if you wanted to have an 266 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: all hands engineering meeting, you can only do it in 267 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: that window. And they also, which was also intriguing to me, 268 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: it were encouraging people or telling managers to encourage the 269 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: rank and file to decline meetings. From what I've found 270 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: in the research I've looked at a meetings is that 271 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: that is often the biggest problem. We just accept every 272 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: meeting we're invited to because we don't want to annoy 273 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: the meeting planner, or we think we'll miss something. You know, 274 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: in in the meeting that said at the meeting and 275 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: then I'm out of the loop anyway, So Shopify has 276 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: done this. But to your point of you know, are 277 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: they going to creep back? I think they might. I 278 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: got a lot of comments after wrote the story that said, look, 279 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: Shopify and other companies that are doing this so called 280 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: calendar purge. You know, they're just going after the symptom, 281 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: not the disease. So I think it'd be really interesting 282 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: to check back with Shopify in August or September and 283 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: be like, hey, guys, how's it going. So, Matt, how 284 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: much do you think meetings moving to Zoom during the 285 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: pandemic have accelerated This again another reassessment of the work 286 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: process because you have, for example, this happens to us 287 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: all the time, you have a meeting and half the 288 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: group is in the office, but everybody's on Zoom, maybe 289 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: even Matt and I sitting next to each other, or 290 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, people are on on Zoom theoretically in the meeting, 291 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: but really just kind of multitasking half paying attention. Yeah, 292 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: it has been a huge problem. That was one of 293 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: the main issues early on when companies started getting people 294 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: back to the office. The early RT o movement, let's 295 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: call it, where people were coming back and spending more 296 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: than half of their day on zoom calls with people 297 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: who were still virtual or remote and you even had 298 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: interns then, you know, coming in for their summer internship, 299 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: all bright eyed and bushytailed, and then looking around and saying, wait, 300 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: where's my manager? Exactly? Oh he's he's working remotely from 301 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, Thailand. Oh great, So why am I here? 302 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: And how am I going to get mentored? Um? So 303 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: you're right. This has led to part of the big 304 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: reassessment here, particularly around the value of offices and making 305 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: sure that you have an intention purpose for coming to 306 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: the office Nicole. Things like the four day work week 307 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: and getting rid of meetings, they both point to something 308 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: workers say they want. They want better control of their time. 309 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: They want their bosses crashing into their time at home 310 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: after hours, with all kinds of demands that make them 311 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: feel like they're expected to be tethered to their jobs 312 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: day and night. So time is one reason why nobody 313 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: wants to commute anymore. We've had some interesting research that 314 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: we've written about showing that people have used the time 315 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: they've saved from commuting to sleep. So apparently we're all 316 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: sleep deprived. I mean, there's also some really interesting research 317 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: from Microsoft that, you know, they make Teams, which is 318 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: the collaboration software that a lot of us use, and 319 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: what they found when they looked at the data of 320 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: the peaks of usage of Teams software, they found what 321 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: they call this third wave of productivity after ten pm, 322 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of it was from parents who had 323 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: to you know, deal with you know, household chores and 324 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: kids and dinner in let's say that three pm to 325 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: six pm time frame, and then only when ten pm 326 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: rolled around did they actually have time for themselves. And 327 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: we're spending it going back on teams and answering emails 328 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: and sending you know, blasting stuff out getting work done. Essentially, 329 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: really don't think that's a particularly good thing. But now 330 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: that we have access to all this data from you know, 331 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: who's using what particular workplace productivity platform, it's really showing 332 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: us some interesting things. A lot of what you're describing 333 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: here gets at another imbalanced workers complain about, which is 334 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: that they feel like they're expected to be completely loyal 335 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: to the company and go above and beyond for sometimes 336 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: no extra pay, but that the company doesn't have to 337 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: be as loyal to them. You know, they get hassled 338 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: that they need a sick day or they can be 339 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: fired at a moment's notice, even though they're supposed to 340 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,479 Speaker 1: give two weeks if they quit. And more employees are 341 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: starting to wonder why they're working so hard to make 342 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: the executives and shareholders of the company even richer while 343 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: their own pay can't keep up with inflation. So this 344 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: is I think a big factor behind what has been 345 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: probably one of the biggest buzzwords of the last you know, 346 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: six six months or so, which is this whole idea 347 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: around quiet quitting. Now the problem has morphed into its 348 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: own American version what some people call quiet quitting, where 349 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 1: employees show up but make sure that they do just 350 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: what they are required and no more. Contrary to what 351 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: the name actually says, it's not really quitting. You're just 352 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: doing the basics of your job and that's it and 353 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: nothing more. And it's been an incredibly controversial topic that 354 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: has made its way all the way to Davos and 355 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: had a whole panel dedicated to it. I think it 356 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: also speaks to people really wanting more work life balance, 357 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: which has been as well a big topic of the 358 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: kind of pandemic era is people realizing that they just 359 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: wanted something elseide of life than working it all away 360 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: and you know, ending up in old age, and you 361 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 1: know what, what was the point of that, really, especially 362 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: when the boundaries between work and life, of course broke 363 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: down completely when when we all went remote. So many 364 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: workplace norms have broken down, including the distinction between you know, 365 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: our work time and our home time. I always loved 366 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: my commute historically before COVID it was about an hour, 367 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: which for New Yorkers typical, but that was my time 368 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: to sort of get rid of the work, my work, 369 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: you know self, and put on my home self and 370 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: become a dad and a husband or you know, work 371 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: exactly says leave it there now. We're never leaving our 372 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 1: job at work. We're never leaving it anywhere. Unfortunately. Um So, 373 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: I think to your point West, this has caused this 374 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: increase in frustration of if I'm always always working, if 375 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: it's really seven and my employer can get to me 376 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: when whenever they want. Yet, of course, if I have 377 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: a problem, you know, good luck finding help there. It's 378 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: related to mental health or stress, so you know, I 379 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: might just sort of quietly give up a little bit 380 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: and just get my paycheck and do that. You know. 381 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: Some of the initial response to to this quiet quitting 382 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: phenomenon was that, oh, it's just slacking off. You know, 383 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: this is not nothing new. Slackers have been around forever, 384 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: and the pushback has been, no, it's actually not that. 385 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: This is about preserving some of these boundaries. And also 386 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: we even interviewed some people who were keeping kind of 387 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: a day job that had a steady, attractive salary in 388 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: order to get their own business going. So it wasn't 389 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: that they were finishing up at five pm and watching 390 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: Netflix for binge, watching whatever their favorite show is. They 391 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: were actually quiet quitting in order to create the job 392 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: that they wanted. Another thing that people who work in retail, 393 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: work in the service industries restaurant, bars, hotels complain about 394 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: is that they're expected to be on call every day, 395 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: even on their days off, and if a manager calls 396 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: them or text them now and says I need you 397 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: to come in, they're expected to come in on a 398 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: moment's notice. Our companies starting to address the scheduling problem 399 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: where people feel like even when they're off, they're not 400 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: really off. Well, we'll know. The way they address it 401 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: was by implementing these automated labor scheduling software bots basically 402 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: that optimized you know exactly when demand is high, if 403 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: it's a Walmart store or a bar restaurant, and they, 404 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: you know, they match the staffing to fit. But the 405 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: problem for workers, of course, is they often don't know, 406 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, until the day or or a week or so, 407 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: what their schedule is actually going to be, because you know, 408 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: the software is optimizing, but it's certainly minimizing the experience 409 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: of the employee who is then told, as you say, 410 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: you know, well we need you in on Tuesday, suddenly 411 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: well I can't, you know, I need to take my 412 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: kid to the doctor. Well too bad. The workers don't 413 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: have a heck of a lot of leverage to say no. Meanwhile, though, 414 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: of course, we have this shortage, so you would hope 415 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: that employers are being perhaps a bit more lenient. But 416 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: these labor optimizing schedules, I mean, they're just so you know, useful, 417 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,959 Speaker 1: and they are so ubiquitous that I don't see employees 418 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: going against the conclusions there to to suit the needs 419 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: of an individual employee. It's just they're so embedded. I 420 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: think which is a problem. We'll be right back. In 421 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: other countries where there's more of a tradition of worker protections, 422 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: there have been a lot of movements to kind of 423 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: change the law to enshrine more worker protections. Can you 424 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: talk a bit about what's man It's happening around the 425 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: world really, particularly in Europe, where lawmakers have urged the 426 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: European Commission to propose new rules that would let employees 427 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: switch off from work related tasks and electronic communication email 428 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: outside of office hours. They call it the right to disconnect, 429 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: and it's happening in places like the Netherlands, in Ireland. 430 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: You're also seeing laws in certain countries where they are 431 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: trying to codify the right to remote work, so basically 432 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: saying every citizen has the right to ask for remote work. 433 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: In the United Kingdom, workers there can now or at 434 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: least there's been proposed legislation that workers could ask to 435 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: work remotely on the first day of their job, rather 436 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: than having to wait weeks or months as is normally 437 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: the case. So we are seeing a lot of momentum 438 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: and movement outside the US, at least related to this 439 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: right to disconnect. Even Portugal had a law as well 440 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: saying your manager can call you after business hours. But 441 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: again it gets complicated though, because defined you know, what's 442 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: after business hours these days. And let's say a Portuguese 443 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: worker wants to you know, take a yoga class during 444 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: the day and work later on. Is it okay for 445 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: the manager to contact them later on when they're you know, 446 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: back into sort of a more productive mode. But by 447 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: and large, West, I mean, there is a huge amount 448 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: of momentum swelling to codify this, to sort of write 449 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: rules for how do you request remote work? How long 450 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: does your company have to respond, what can they how 451 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: can you know if they refuse on what grounds? I 452 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: mean obviously, if you're a construction worker, you need to 453 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: be on the construction site. But I think you know, 454 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: the rules are really being rewritten left, right and center 455 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 1: outside the US right now. Do you think that US companies, 456 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: getting the pressure on them to attract new workers are 457 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: looking at some of these examples and maybe make some changes. Well, 458 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: I mean, we still don't have you know, paid leave 459 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: on a federal level in the U S. What does 460 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: that say where basically the only industrialized nation that that 461 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: that still doesn't has. I think you're going to see 462 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: movement west in state by state. The Federal Trade Commission 463 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: recently came out and said they want to ban noncompete 464 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: clauses entirely um which is a moving that we've only 465 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: seen thus far on the state level. And those are clauses, 466 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: of course, that prevent a worker from taking another job 467 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: in the same industry or opening a business in the 468 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: same industry that would compete with their previous employer. They're 469 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: very stifling to innovation, they're stifling to wages and just 470 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: career opportunities. You know, there are also regulations and things 471 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: pending in state houses around you know, things like anti 472 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: bullying for example, just healthy workplace laws. But on a 473 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: federal level, especially with this current divided Congress, I don't 474 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: hold out a lot of hope that we're going to see, 475 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, something that we've seen in like Ireland or 476 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: the Netherlands and sort of coming full circle on this 477 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: discussion right now in the US, it seems very contingent 478 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: upon the supply and demand dynamics of a particular industry, 479 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: of a particular company, and of the workers themselves. Really 480 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: in the US, I agree with Matt. I don't think 481 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: on a federal level we'll see much beyond what the 482 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: FTC is trying to do anytime soon, and it's really 483 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: just playing out company by company, industry by industry, and 484 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: worker by worker. If you're in a highly sought after 485 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: field and you have tremendous expertise and what you're doing, 486 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: and you're very highly rated at your company by your bosses, 487 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: then I think you have tons of leverage right now 488 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: to potentially take advantage of a broader environment where people 489 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: are talking about flexible work and work life balance, demanding 490 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: better pay. And we're seeing this, you know, even in 491 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: some places that are unexpected areas like retail, hospitality and 492 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: the restaurant industry. It's an industry that really has is 493 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: at the heart of worker shortage. So I can't tell 494 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: you how many times I walk by a store retail 495 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: store in Manhattan or a restaurant in my neighborhood in 496 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: Brooklyn and see help wanted sign. Nicole Bullock, Matthew Boyle, 497 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking with me today. Thank you, 498 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: thanks a lot. You can read more Workshift Courage from 499 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: Nicole Bullock and Matthew Boyle at Bloomberg dot Com. Thanks 500 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: for listening to us here at the Big Take. It's 501 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For 502 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: more shows from my heart Radio, visit the I Heart 503 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. The supervising 504 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: producer of The Big Take is Vicky Virgolina, Our senior 505 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: producer is Katherine Fink. Our producer is Frederica Roman Yellow 506 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: and our associate producer is Zena Siddiki. Raphael m Seely 507 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: is our sound engineer and our original music was composed 508 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: by Leo Sidrin. I'm west Caasova. We'll be back tomorrow 509 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: with another Big Take.