WEBVTT - Permission to Publicly Grieve 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:19.320 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:24.640 As I mentioned yesterday on Woke Wednesday, today's conversation with 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.600 our friend or in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, is 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:33.680 going to be our reflection on this week, marking the 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:39.160 four year anniversary since COVID was named a global health pandemic. 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.120 And what I can tell you is that, you know, 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.760 I put up a couple of videos on TikTok and 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:55.360 on Instagram, and it is so disheartening to me some 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.920 of it. And I know that there are trolls and you know, 0:00:57.960 --> 0:00:59.960 and all of those things, but it is so disheart 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:05.040 heartening to me to put up these videos that really 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:12.000 encourage us to reflect on this time and people respond 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.600 with like it was a hoax, it was the flu, 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.360 it was you know, it didn't matter. And I'm just like, 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:25.959 the distortion and the misinformation, the chosen ignorance is just 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.160 wildly disheartening. I don't know what else to say about it, 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.000 but I do know that for the rest of us, 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.399 particularly the wok F engaged wonderful audience that you are, 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:43.720 that we need to be reminded of the trauma that 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.520 we have gone through and continue to go through, to 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:51.080 reflect on what we lost and also what we gained, 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.360 right and how our lives have changed. 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:55.600 You know. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.720 I mentioned yesterday that how I got started in this 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:05.080 comment was with my mom, who celebrated a birthday this week, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.120 and her birthday coincides with, you know, now the shutdown 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.440 of the world and her brain surgery and all of 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.440 these things, so it's a notable time for us each 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.480 year over the last four years. And you know, so 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:26.080 when she was teaching yoga this week, she did exactly 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.480 what I did on the show, which was, you know, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.520 kind of have her students think about and reflect on 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.680 the last four years where they were four years ago 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.240 in twenty twenty, how their lives have changed. You know, 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.360 Have they given any stock to that change, right? Like, 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.400 are they asking their friends and their family how they 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.880 really are, how they have been managing, you know, or 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.000 have we just gone back to business as usual. I'm good, 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:01.200 things are great, you know lies and you know, and 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:05.560 she said that it was really powerful that folks were 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.600 really appreciative, because I think that we need to give 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:16.800 ourselves and each other the permission, right to publicly be 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.520 able to grieve in a lot of ways, the ways 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:25.560 that our lives have been turned upside down, and that 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:30.639 you know, many of us are looking for the opportunity 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.760 to share our truth and be vulnerable about the ways 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:40.760 that we are different, about the losses that we have suffered, 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.560 and about the purposeful changes that we have made, the 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.320 shifts that we have made in our lives, you know. 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.360 And I offer to all of you this coming weekend, 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:59.120 like reach out to your friends, your family, you know, 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.960 offer it up, you know, to ask people how they're doing. Man, 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:08.280 it's been four years, Like isn't it wild? Like how 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:14.680 have you been managing? And just see what happens. Because unfortunately, 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:19.520 without direct leadership from the top, giving us as a 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.120 country the opportunity to collectively grieve, which I think would 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:30.680 be incredibly powerful, it has been politicized. As evidence by 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.800 some of the comments that you wouldn't see because I've 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.560 deleted them because I don't want that shit lingering on 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:42.920 my page. But to deny people the opportunity to grieve 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:52.160 real loss of a life, of livelihood, of stability, is 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.920 to deny each other's humanity. And that's why we're in 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.480 the predicament, the shit show that we're in right now 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:09.480 because of the forces at play that are working to 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:18.920 dismantle our humanity, our values, our shared morals. So how 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:24.599 do we put those pieces back together? It begins with 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:31.840 recognizing ourselves and each other, providing grace and space for 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:38.400 necessary conversation. So coming up next my conversation with our friend, 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:45.279 our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:47.640 that whenever we have the opportunity to speak with our 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.440 in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, I am always thrilled, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:56.880 and I'm thrilled this week honestly because Jonathan. This month 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:03.279 is the four year anniverse since COVID was named a 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:10.960 global health pandemic by the WHO, by the CDC, and 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:16.040 our worlds were altered in March of twenty twenty. And 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:20.720 what I find so troubling as I do my own 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.040 reflection because from my family, for folks, that we had 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.880 been listening to me for those four years. You know, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.120 March twenty twenty was when my mother was diagnosed with 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:34.640 a brain tumor. She went in for brain surgery the 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:39.800 day before everything shut down, and thank god we were 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.599 able to, you know, have the surgery, get her home 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.359 and recover, and because of COVID, we were able for 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.760 her to recover and heal as a full family. So 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.279 for us it is a time of like deep reflection 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:57.359 and gratitude. But Jonathan, what I realize as I do 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.039 my own reflections every year and my FAMI family does theirs, 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:07.000 that collectively, as a country, we just pretend that this 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:14.640 traumatic world stopping event where a million over a million 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.800 Americans lost their lives didn't happen. 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.000 I mean, I've been thinking about this so much. I'm 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.640 so glad we're talking about it for the history of 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.760 the world, for the history of everything we know, but 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.200 also for our own history. Right, you and I started 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.040 talking as you say all these things, but you and 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.200 I started our conversations because we were like, holy crap, 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:36.920 when's the world going to go back together? And that's 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:44.840 what started our weekly conversations. And so it's also I 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.120 know I didn't get anything. I'm sorry, but this part 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.360 of the story is like it just feels like, and 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.760 I'm thinking of Eric Kleinenberg's new book, like the World 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:54.840 broke and we never put it back together is kind 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.240 of what it feels like. And so it's funny, like 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:00.640 I'm going to give you an example that is not 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.400 related to COVID for how I've been thinking, which is, 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.000 and I think I've talked about this for a bit. 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:06.560 It was like the middle of the night and I 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:10.920 watched Ferris Buehler's Day Off. And the crazy thing was, 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.760 here's Ferris Buehler. He hangs out with his friends. He 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.880 like ditches school, they steal the car, they go to 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.800 the Cubs game, they go to a parade. But the 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.520 whole thing is the movie was made like a year 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.120 before cell phones, and so all these people are like 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:29.400 doing all this stuff, but they couldn't conceive that they 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:31.920 could have ever just called, Like they keep stopping to 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:34.079 go to a payphone or something. Farris Bueler would have 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.640 been busted in five seconds if he had a phone 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.320 had a day off, And so there was something that 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:45.199 happened that irreparably, irreparably changed everybody's consciousness. And now when 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.280 you watch it, you're like, why is this guy getting 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:48.000 to ditch school? 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.000 Just track as far right, right, right right, But nobody 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.120 you watched millions of people in the movie Dancing at Chicago, 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.280 nobody could have conceived And it's just a way that 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.800 a technology was going to come and changed everybody's perception 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:03.760 about the basic premise of the movie. 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.000 And the other thing about Faris Bueler's Day Off, which 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.400 again is the most random right turn, but it's like, 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.520 if you watch it again, people aren't on cell phones, 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:14.600 which is kind of weird to watch a world where 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.680 people aren't on cell phones. And then if they would 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.520 have didn Faris Bueler's Day Off, like even five years later, 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:22.960 nobody would have looked each other in the eye. Everybody 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:24.280 would have been like, hold on one sec. Kind of 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:26.640 get a picture of that for Instagram or something like that. 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:30.480 So it's just funny that like things happen that change 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.240 our perception, that happens all the time in big ways 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.120 and small ways. And I feel like, for me, that's 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.240 kind of the story of COVID, but in a really 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.440 bad way, which is there are all these massive things 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.560 that happened, like a million zillion people died and they're 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.520 gone and there's no you know, it's funny, like think 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:52.080 about it. In the beginning, like we had music tributes 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.640 and memories and it was kind of weird of the world, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.400 and all the opera singers got together and then everybody 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.760 just it's just the loss of life was so an 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:05.239 ending and overwhelming that everybody was we just have normalized 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.080 it in a way. So part of it is the 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.040 loss of life, but the other part is just the 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.800 way it changed we relate to the world. Like people 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.080 feel to me, and this is my question for you. 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.960 People feel less social, they feel less communal, they feel 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.640 less they feel more tired, just rallying people to do 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.120 things as harder. The perception of what it means to 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:32.080 leave your apartment is just so different. The perception of 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.120 what it means to work feels different. The perception of 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.880 what politics means is so different. And so for me, 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.160 there's the massive things, which are death, and then there's 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.319 the subtle things, which is are just how it changed 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.520 how we think about things we never thought about, like 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.440 going five days to a week in the office. Of course, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.600 yeah that's what I do and I like my colleagues 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.800 and stuff. And now people don't want to go in 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.920 two days a week and they're working from home and 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.800 they're or isolated but maybe more productive. Like it's just 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.880 everything everything changed our perception to me. To me, that's 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:11.200 the enduring thing which I think really has profound political implications. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:18.640 Also, And I think that that's right, that our perception 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.440 on everything has shifted in such a dramatic way. And 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.720 I love the analogy that you gave to Feris Bueller's 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.800 Day Off, because like the whole premise of the movie, 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:29.760 like you said, wouldn't have even been able to like 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.360 get off of, you know, get out of somebody's idea 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.240 and into a script, because it would have been like 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.480 he'll be found in two seconds or caught in two seconds. 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.320 Somebody will snap a picture and post it and boom, 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.040 you know, you know where he is. That also just 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:48.120 makes me sad about the loss of anonymity in a 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:53.880 deep way as well. But to the perception piece about 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.880 how we work, how we live, how we gather, how 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.720 we connect, all of these fundamental things that make us 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.880 huge women, that make our society tick have changed and 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.960 we don't reflect on it at all. And I think 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.760 that that is something. And I don't know, because you 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.480 travel internationally more for work than I ever do, and 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.600 I want to know from your conversations and travels do 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:25.079 other countries have a deeper reflection because of and people 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.400 love to say, like, you know, Donald Trump didn't change anything, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.560 ball blah. And I'm just like the fact that we 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:35.319 don't have a remembrance for those that we lost to COVID, 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.840 the fact that there isn't like a moment of silence 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.160 collectively every year, the fact that there is going to 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.280 be no real coverage on the news of those that 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.120 we lost and remembering this time and kind of like, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.400 you know, having this reflection is deeply American because we 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.320 love to forget things. We love to bury them and 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.760 pretend that they didn't happen. I e slavery, right. So 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:03.160 I'm just wondering for you, you, with your international community, 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.880 is there a difference in terms of how people look 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:08.800 at this anniversary. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.400 Well, yes, and let me say three things. But the 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.840 first is actually going to answer the question before, because 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:15.640 I had one more thing to say about this. I 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.320 taught a class for a long time on COVID and society. 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.720 We started teaching it in the second midst. I spoke yeah, 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.920 and you spoke a munch And so for me, the 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.240 most telling thing and I'll get to the international thing 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:28.840 in a second, but let's just hold on to the 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.120 first thought for one more minute, which is for me, 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.000 the most powerful And I'll tell you in a bit. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.959 We stopped teaching that class. It got too intense because 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.680 people in the beginning and they were all like, we 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.240 are the world and we're on the same team. And 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.400 by the end, like to get people to even talk 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.440 about masks, they were going to kill each other, like 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.559 it was so people were so divided, And that's part 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.280 of the story for me, is one thing about the pandemic. 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.320 Another thing is that we spend so much more time 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:58.520 on social media and on our computers and our phones 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.480 than we did before, even though we had them available, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.800 and so it's so much easier to divide people, like 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.160 the level of like manipulation. Like remember in the beginning 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.239 of the pandemic, every's like, oh there's misinformation and disinformation 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:14.400 and we have to stop it for real everything. But 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:18.440 now like where it's like we are so susceptible to 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:23.000 being divided in every way possible. And so that's number one. 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.720 But number two and I'm just rambling crazy today, but 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.320 the most powerful thing we would do in this class, 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.400 I'm going to ask you this question is we would say, 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.240 do we would tell the students look at a video 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.920 clip of you before the pandemic, or if you don't 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.520 have one. Look at a picture of you, but look 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.200 at you know, a clip. What didn't you know that 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.240 you know now? In other words, what information or knowledge 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.040 or perception? The way people would do this for like war, 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.160 like before and after the war, what didn't you know? 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.440 Look at yourself before the war? Oh, I was so innocent. 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.600 What didn't you know before the pandemic? That you would 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.680 tell yourself now? And we would ask we had one 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.240 hundred and fifty students in the class. We would tell 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.400 them to go back to their prior self and tell 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.400 them a story about what you know now that you 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.520 didn't know that now? Do you matter if I put 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.160 you on the spot and ask you that question? 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.880 Yeah, I'm like I'm thinking, I'm there's so much that 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.040 I did this. There is like there's so but I'm 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.160 trying to think of, like what would be that one 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:29.080 thing that I would tell myself In March twenty nineteen, Yeah, 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.760 that you can still I would say this that, like 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.440 your ability to build connection in person is critical, but 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:42.080 you can build connections virtually with people, right, like if 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:46.800 you were never able to go outside, like there is 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:51.560 way to continue to like deepen friendships and like build 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:58.040 community but being in person is something that like is needed, right. 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.880 I think that that's the thing that I tell myself 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:06.080 because I'm a very social person and you know, a 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.000 person that if I allow my calendar to dictate, my 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.000 life would be filled with stuff to do all the time. 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:14.960 And so the other part is that like you don't 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:19.240 have to have busy work, like you can just slow down, right, 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.240 Like that is you know that your productivity is not 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.360 your work. So those are two things that I would 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.840 like say, what did your students say? What did you say? 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:32.040 I said that the connections that you take for granted 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.480 are much more fragile than you realize. In other words, 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.960 like all the assumptions about common good or health or 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:44.680 wellbeing are just there. You know. I felt like I 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.680 lived in an enlightened era because you know, my dad 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.240 escaped the Holocaust and we came to America and this 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.880 is democracy and all these kind of things, and I 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:59.280 just I just I just would tell myself that the 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.920 bonds are are are strong, but they're much more susceptible 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.240 than you ever realized about everything things you really assumed 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.919 as core of civilization. So for me, that's it. The 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.280 students were it was really sad because most of them said, like, 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.119 my life could get derailed at any moment, you know, 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.280 or like, you know, because a lot of them lost 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.720 scholarships or lost years of playing sports or lost things 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:26.239 like that. So for them it was kind of like 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.040 shit could go south at any minute, and so it 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.399 was more like prepare that kind of thing. But it 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.919 was also you know, we love zoom and we have 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.199 all these technologies and you could spend more time on 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.160 your iPhone than you ever wanted, but I'd be curious 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.800 now to do it again. It was great the first 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.240 three years, and then there was just the division in 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.960 the class got to be really intense. And it wasn't 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.959 just division about COVID. It was division about race, the 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.679 things that we couldn't that we easily talked about, Like 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:58.960 we easily talked about race that first year, and by 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.760 the third year, I would say stuff like, you know, 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.240 it turns out like tons of working class, poor white 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.959 Americans died of COVID, And then one student would say, well, 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.080 they deserved it for not getting vaccines, and somebody else 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.240 would say, you're anti white race. Like it just got 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.119 really intense, and that's what you do in college. You 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.399 talk about it, but it yeah, yeah, but it was 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.840 just you know, we just thought, like, man, maybe we 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.000 can reframe this. So now I have a more cheerful 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.040 class about guns in America. But no, So it was 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.439 just interesting to see that. So I would say that 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.120 to me that what I'm talking about is a kind 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.920 of global phenomenon in some ways. Now I think America 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:40.240 it's more intense in a way. It certainly feels more 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.840 intense because there was this movement rising, so all these 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.479 things happened about you know, we just have it just 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.080 happened that this happened when Trump was president, and then 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.479 the sedition to overthrow the government and all these things 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.760 and George Floyd. Everything happened that kind of manifested it. 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.640 But I have, as you know, a lot of relatives 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.000 in Israel. They were like in the beginning out there 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:08.040 clapping on their balconies for the healthcare workers, and now 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.800 that country has been like ripped in a million pieces. 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.680 And it's very similar. Right, A lot of the hardcore 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.440 right wing people are buying guns, and they're anti science, 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:22.600 and they're obviously pulling them into even worse war. So 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.200 this idea of like we're all going to come together there. 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.879 I know, people are just becoming quite tribal because this 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.960 thing spread. I have a lot of colleagues in Europe. 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:35.600 I guess the one place, and I don't know, this 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.480 is naive maybe, but I'm part of a project in 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:42.480 Scandinavia where they're doing this thing called the COVID Narratives Project, 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.880 which is like, what's the narrative of COVID that people 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:52.280 can memorialize and talk about and imply. And so I'm 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.040 curious where Scandinavia fits in. Now I'll tell you My 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.600 theory about all this is that there's this sociological theory 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:05.040 called social cohesion, which is basically that countries that have 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.840 shared infrastructure or build shared infrastructure during something like a pandemic, 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.679 end up coming out of it better. An example not 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.560 from COVID is like the UK during World War II, 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.520 for example, you know, London was being bombed and blockaded, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.640 and the British government said, Okay, we're going to nationalize 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.679 access to healthcare, We're going to democratize access to food 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.640 because everybody should be taken care of at a time 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.120 when we're all facing a common enemy. And it turned 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.280 out then when World War Two ended, they had the 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.760 framework for the NHS and social welfare programs and all 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.720 these kinds of things that helped the country. And Scandinavia 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.920 is kind of similar, like there's good infrastructure and a 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.159 bunch of other things too. So I would bet that 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:55.040 countries that have like shared collaborative resources and don't like 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.280 all go like this is my resource and not yours, 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.480 which is what we're doing. Yeah, I bet those are 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:01.600 the countries. But this that reminds me. I'll check back 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:03.280 in on Scandinavian. I'll report back. 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:11.919 I'm curious before COVID, and this is somebody I am, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:16.680 somebody who built a career off of public service, right, 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:22.320 like worked on Capitol Hill, worked in nonprofit organizations like 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:24.919 you know, was a teacher, all of these things, and 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:29.440 so very much believe in the public good. But something 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:35.119 that I didn't honestly realize until COVID was how important 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.639 leadership is in this country. And that is something that 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:44.880 I took wholeheartedly for granted, even going through the Bush 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.880 years right where you know, you had a president fly 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.960 over black people dying in New Orleans because of Katrina, 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.880 right and not sending in aid. But somehow, you know, 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.000 you have celebrities that are sending in eighteen wheeler trucks 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:06.800 to provide water. Right, So it is to recognize how 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.200 different I think that America would be right now if 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.280 Donald Trump had not been the president, had we not 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.720 had a president that had turned the virus into a 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.520 racial slur, had we not had a president that told 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:22.959 people not to wear a mask, and that you know, 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:26.920 to keep states open was to liberate them right and 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.720 did not put the public health forward, told people to 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.560 shoot up, bleach and light. You know that if you 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:38.520 removed Donald Trump, the Trump administration and MAGA, if it 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:41.320 had been Hillary Clinton, if it had been Obama and 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:45.480 it happened during the Obama years, like what a vast 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:49.159 difference I think that we would be in right now. 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:53.520 I think that America would have been stronger and more 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:57.120 united because we would have seen COVID as like as 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:00.560 shared responsibility instead. I mean, you would have still had 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:04.280 those people who want a grift in a price gouge, 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:06.920 and that happens all of the time. But I think 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:09.919 that there would have been much more of a community 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:13.960 building and shared humanity if we had had the right leadership. 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.320 Yeah, I mean it's that you really need that right, 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.879 because you know, I just I have much more to 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:23.399 say about that. You know, there are all these moments 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:25.920 early in the pandemic when people were wondering is this 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:27.919 thing going to be polarized or is it going to 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.760 be unifying? And remember Trump two months into the pandemic, 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:35.160 the Trump administration filed a brief with the Supreme Court 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:38.960 to like overturn the entire Affordable Care Act. They blocked healthcare, 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:41.840 they blocked medicaid reform in red states, like all these ways. 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:44.879 They signaled that it's not just politics as usual, but 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:49.639 it's an opportunity for us to like get ahead, you know, 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:53.560 by profiteering in a way in this horrible moment. And 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:57.680 so it became what's called a polarizing crisis where people's 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.960 divisions really were enhanced. Now, I'll say that the thing 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:03.920 about COVID is that it just went on so long, 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.840 like it was almost beyond comprehension. Usually people think of 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:10.080 before and after and then we can do a memorial, 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:12.240 and then we can do a statue and all these things, 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:16.120 and it just defied all that because it's still floating around. 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:19.320 And so I think part of the issue was it 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:23.200 just wasn't conceivable for us, and it certainly wasn't conceivable 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:27.520 for people like Trump. Just what was being faced in 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:29.640