WEBVTT - Ep. 746: Hornography 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening past, you 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.360 can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.600 I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds, 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.160 no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.200 no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.559 first light dot com. That's f I R S T 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:44.560 L I t E dot com. Kevin Monteeth is here today, 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:50.159 second podcast appearance. You're one of the top favorite UH 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.720 guests we've ever had. You're just saying that to be nice. 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.040 I'm telling people love that show, dude. That was a 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.440 big show. Over the years, we've had some big shows 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.480 that people really liked and just gen RD a lot 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.479 of stuff. That was a big show. That was episode one, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:09.080 six two and it was called Landscape of Fear. Now 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:11.720 we're all the way up on episode seven five, so 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.880 lots changed. Randall's hair has grown like that and been 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.360 cut back. That was just dozens of times since then. 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:21.200 Just a few weeks before Karin and I started, I 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:21.800 think so. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:28.880 Yeah, Phil was just getting out of high school. Kevin 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.120 is here, So Kevin is the Professor of Natural Resource 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:38.480 Sciences at the University of Wyoming's hob Hob School of 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:43.399 Environment and Natural Resources, Department of Zoology and Physiology. He 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.120 is the leader of the Monteeth Shop. He is here 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.680 to dispel almost everything you think in fact about deer, 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:56.720 about deer, about deer and elk, about antlers. He dispelled 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.280 it before and he'll dispel it again in a new way. 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.760 Puzzle other things. All I do now when I'm talking 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.120 every time, And I had to do this the other day. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:06.920 I had to do this the other day. Who did 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.560 I do it to? I'm trying to think, Oh, Morgan Potter, 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.480 a professional hunter in Africa. He was laying on me 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:21.400 the whole genetics. Oh, this area doesn't have good deer. 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:23.760 This you know, not laying it on me. I don't 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:25.480 mean to, like, you know, he's a buddy of mine, 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.440 the whole, like Letteria doesn't have good genetics. And I 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.600 had to lay on him the whole. Not so fast. 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:35.200 There's a lot more to the picture. 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:36.280 To see him stiffen up there. 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:43.480 Like like to get into it. Oh not that I said, Yeah, 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:45.320 lot goes into it. 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:47.280 I think it might have also been a reaction to 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:47.680 some of. 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.960 The listen, this isn't a this isn't a weapon. This 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.600 is an antique. I'll explain it in a second, because 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:59.320 it's relevant to my life right now, relevant to your life. Yeah, 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:06.280 not really. For instance, just to just to give you 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.560 a pre titillation about what's going to happen, Kevin's just 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:10.120 showing me a picture of a buck, a mual to 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:13.400 your buck. Anyone on the planet. Anyone on the planet 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:17.600 would look at this buck and declare it to be 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.960 a classic year and a half old buck, a classic 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:28.959 first rack, like a spiky little buck with little offshoots. 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:30.799 You'd be like, that's a year and a half old buck. 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:32.760 Every guy would say that. I would tell my kids 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.080 if they'd be like, is it a big one? If 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:36.840 they got it, I'd be like, that's a year and 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.520 a half old buck. It ain't. It's two and a 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.840 half years old. At three and a half, you look 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.960 at it and be like, eah, probably not a year 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.320 and a half old, but still looks like that. A 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:52.840 buck that'll be a runt for the rest of his life. 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:58.160 Not because he's from an area with bad genetics. It's 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.560 because his mom was an piss poor shape when she 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:06.960 was pregnant with him. Correct, that's right. We're gonna get 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.240 into all that and a lot more. Lots of good research, 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:11.640 lots of good research. For first tell, we were just 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.640 talking about how you call your place your outfit, which 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.440 is kind of funny. You call it the monteeth shop, 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:18.960 and we're talking about it in like in the trades. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:24.200 You know, you meet at the shop. I don't care 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.920 if you're a tree surgeon, whatever, Millwright, you go meet 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.320 at the shop. Then you go off to your job site. 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.719 And it's funny that you called your scientific lab your shop. Yeah, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.800 because there's work going on there. There's there's work going 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:41.919 on there. Yeah, And we definitely catch him flak for 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.480 it because, yeah, because it doesn't sound official enough, doesn't 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:46.200 fit right. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.120 Yeah, if you're going to be a I don't know, 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.240 a scientist or a group that does science, the typical 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.520 reference is a lab. And I think that's at least 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.599 in the in the academic world, that's that's the norm. 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.200 And I think despite working in an academic world, I 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.200 don't think I've ever I don't think I've ever fit 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.840 the mold. I don't think I necessarily have a desire 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.320 to fit the mold, and so in thinking about what 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.760 it meant for us over time and who we were 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.479 to be referenced as in that way. To me, what 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.320 made more sense if we're going to be data generators, 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:29.680 hands dirty in the field, and you know, being able 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:31.560 to do the work that puts us in as close 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.719 proximity the animals that we do. To me, what made 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.960 sense is a shop something that's more that associated more 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.359 with the trades, or like a mechanic shop for example. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.840 I often maybe reference us as like diagnostic mechanics, working 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.359 to hands dirty in there, working to figure out what's 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.200 going on with any you know, particular animal population and 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.640 working to understand them better. So and I think, I 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.640 don't know, I guess like my upbringing and who I 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.720 am at heart, it fits a lot better than being 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.200 referenced as as a lab. 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.560 So despite the flack that we get for it, we 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:09.599 stuck with it. Oh yeah, I wouldn't pay attention to 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:15.640 that before. Before I explain this this year knife I'm home. Uh, 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.240 you got a mon Teeth shop shirt on that has 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:23.719 what I thought was a bigfoot guy pumping iron. You 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.360 did not. You did think that, and it's not that correct. Okay, 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.000 what is it, Because this is something I hadn't heard of. 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:34.200 I'm embarrassed to have not as much as I hear 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.760 you talk about Beaver as he's got a picture on 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.279 his shirt of a bigfoot pumping iron lifting a stick, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:43.760 except except it's not. Yeah. 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:47.640 It actually reminds me of the the sand creatures in 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.520 Star Wars when they shake their Yeah, the Tuesking Raiders 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.160 when they shake their things at one another. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.000 That's good. That's good. Thanks. Speaking of which we're trying 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.280 to I'm trying to license a song right now that 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.800 has a line. We did a couple of favors for 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:08.560 a guy who looked like a Tusk and Raider. M No, 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:10.280 we did a couple of favors for some guys who 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:11.520 look like Tusk and Raiders. 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.320 Is based on a true story. 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:16.320 I doubt it, Okay, go on. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.720 So it's a beaver holding up a stick, and part 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.560 of that is the artwork was done by one of 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:29.080 our former team members, ran In, jacobek In. We just 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.960 started doing some work on Beaver's here over the past 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.800 couple of years and sort of yeah became we became 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.600 aware of this behavior, and it's a behavior often that's 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.160 very rarely seen in beavers, but there's a scientific paper 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.560 on it, and if you if you google stick display 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:52.600 in beavers, there is a YouTube video demonstrating them doing it. 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.960 But amidst like territory holders are at the edge kind 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:01.640 of the fringes of potential territories. That's sort of antagonistic behavior. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.360 They'll they'll pick up a stick and just go up 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.200 and down and up and down with that, with displaying 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.560 that stick. And I don't know, I think it's kind 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:11.320 of funny too, given that, you know, most of our 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:13.440 work is on big ungulates, and we've done a good 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.600 bit of work on horns and antlers and those sorts 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.880 of things. Then what they're used as is weapons and 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.960 forms of intimidation and display. And beavers don't have antlers 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.200 or horns on their heads, but perhaps picking up a 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.120 stick it does some. 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:32.200 Sort of has some sort of intimidation element. He's getting 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:37.439 pumped exactly. No, that's exactly right. 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.439 Our stickers have that saying underneath it speaks offten and 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:41.200 carry a big stick. 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:47.680 Yeah, he's either you know, if you really dug into it, 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.559 is it uh like a fitness display? You know? Is 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.199 like is it like hey man, like this is a 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.199 hard thing to pull off, right, what we were at 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.520 this when I was just in in Africa, We're hanging 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:07.360 out these MASSI dudes and they like they have there's 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.600 this traditional dance in Messiah culture where it's trying like 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:17.080 young men and young women. And in this dance there's 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.160 like a couple. There's like a display, an athletic display 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.480 of men, which is just a flat footed jump m 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.240 again and again like a spring like from a flat 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.400 footed stance that you just jump again and again and 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.600 again and like get some impressive height, dude. Especially when 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:39.560 I when I was like, let me give it away, 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:44.520 I was like impressive height. And then the right it's 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.240 just a asking like what is it all about. It's 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:54.400 just like showing game. Yeah, a flat footed jump, you know. 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.360 And then for the women, it's kind of like a 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.760 you put this disc around your neck and it's like 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.880 a I rating move to make the disc shiver. All right, 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.480 it's just showing what you got. So that beaver could. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:11.319 Be like exactly balance strength, yeah saying I'm gonnahoop you 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:11.600 with this. 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.320 Stick, or it's like this is the kind of stuff 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:15.240 we got around here. 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:18.880 You know, you know I had a beaver. I had 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:25.199 a beaver interaction their day of my my my boys. Uh, 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:32.800 his buddy's family. They had Beaver's plugging up their irrigation 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.480 crop irrigation system. And I'm went over to advise him. 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.640 I'm trying to get rid of them. And I made 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.120 some cast or mound sets just I took Beaver's case. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.559 It seemed like just one beaver kind of like doing 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:52.160 his deal put castor out. He just left. I like, 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.000 I don't know, I can't prove this. I feel like 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.280 he had like a oh ship, someone's already here and 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.920 like left. I'm telling you he left. He's gone. We 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.120 keep checking he's gone. That's wild. He had these little 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.160 dams in this, you know, in an irrigation deal. Yeah, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:08.839 he had these little dams. He had a couple of 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:10.800 little ship and cast or mounds the size of a 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.559 cell phone. You know what I mean. We put like 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:17.720 a big old cat, two big old caster mounts. Dude, 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.320 I'm not kidding that dude moved out, which could be 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.559 like something interesting to develop for like sort of like 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.559 non lethal non lethal deal is get after him early 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.760 and just like sorry boys, making sorry boys, there's already 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.440 a bad mobile in town. Man. You better go find 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.240 a new spot to hang out. So he and it 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.959 did him good because he's alive. He lived to tell 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.680 the tale. Yeah, oh, this knife. So how they do 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.280 villas in town? Ak Moosey. I screwed up in my 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.200 head and I didn't think that she would be here. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:52.920 She could be hanging out right now, but I just 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.120 didn't think about it. I didn't think andy by the 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.640 time I invited her. We started, We're recording at nine. 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.320 Occurred to me at eight forty two. Invite her. She 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.720 wasn't able to make it shooting pistols. But I'm going 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.320 to have her fix this because she's a leather sower. 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.000 My old man brought this home from North Africa and whiskey. 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:18.280 Whiskey too. That's like gotta be elephant ivory. Yeah, take 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.400 a look at that. Oh yeah, that's awesome. It's gotta 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.040 be elephant. I don't know what the hell. I don't 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:24.360 know what kind of ivory it is. 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.960 It looks exactly like some of this stuff that I 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.760 have from my grandmother that was from China. 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:34.160 So from China, mm hmm, it's from North Africa. No, 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:34.440 I know. 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:39.240 I'm just saying, like a little Confucius statue carved in irony. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.000 Oh, I thought, you mean, you're accusing my dad of 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:48.640 bringing home some kind of souvenir knockoff defense just like that. 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.920 Where's the stick? Yeah? He So he was real like 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.439 whatever it was, he was. I still remember what he 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.640 told me about it. He was real particular about it though. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.600 And this she is a weird leather. Look at that leather. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.200 I've had some people say maybe ostrich, but you can't 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.960 see a lot of times an ostrich leather. You can 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.280 see there, you can see the follicle for the feather. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.800 I need to have it stitch back up. That was 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.760 unstitched when I was born. Oh so it's been that 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.800 way it was. So you know what I just did. 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.640 I took mineral oil. I put that. I took that 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.439 sheath and put mineral oil a little a couple of 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.559 tablespoons of mineral oil in a vac bag and stuck 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.720 that sheath in there and vac sealed it. Which I'm 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.400 gonna patent as a way to like bring leather back 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.000 to like picture what I'm talking about. It's good. Patent 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.160 it so no one else can do it. Let's say 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.079 check with me. Take like an old whatever old leather belt, whatever, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.160 it's kind of played out, Put oil in a bag, 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:54.400 vac seal it in that bag. Then let it sit 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:55.800 on your work bench for a couple of days and 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.840 open it up, and that sucker is rejuvenated. Now. Let 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:01.680 guy might tell me that there's a reason that that's 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:03.600 dumb or not a good idea, but I don't know. 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.640 Or he might tell you that people are already doing that. 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:10.080 You could tell me that. You could tell me, yeah, 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.040 don't be surprised when he pulled something out and I 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.360 fell apart. I don't know, but I think I'm onto something. 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:16.960 But I need to have it stitch back up. But 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.600 isn't that something I want to you know, like those 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:23.760 antique road show things? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, like what is 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.760 up with this thing? Randall wanted to know if he 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.760 came home from the war and it had crowd blood 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.760 all over it. But I don't know that he uh, 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:40.320 I told him already cleaned it all off. Randall's got 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.920 back from Germany so much to Steve chagrin. Yeah, I 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.160 don't like that one bit. So you're glad that I'm back. No, 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.680 I'm glad you're back, But I felt I was nervous 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:51.400 the whole time you're over there that things might break 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:58.600 out again. Norm McDonald used to talk about that. Yeah, 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:04.280 everybody's always worried about like, uh, North Russia. He's like, 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:08.960 why are they not worried about the Germans? We've already 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:11.600 wars with them? Do you think it's over now? 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:14.480 Uh? 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.520 Yeah? Oh one other quick thing. I don't want to 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:20.960 take up too much of our time. But you know 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:27.480 how like I'm bad on sports. I'm bad on like 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:33.360 just generally very ignorant about athletics. I was getting my haircut. 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.560 I get my haircut VI I p barbershop, which is great. 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.400 You gotta call ahead, but it's great. And one thing 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:42.040 I like about it is they always playing sports with 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.800 the volume off, which I was better you know that way. 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:53.960 And because it like during the during the Summer Olympics, 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:55.720 it was cool because you just watched these people run 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.360 around the track but you can't hear what's going on. 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.560 I thought it was very soothing. I'm in there the 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.480 other day and like the big Old there's a huge 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.240 TV screen. It's the only thing in there. They they 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.400 don't really it's not really like mega decorated, but there's 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.280 a huge TV screen, and so normally you sit, like 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.200 when you're getting your haircut, you're looking at the screen, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.840 but when you're waiting, your backs to the screen. But 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:19.040 the other wall is a giant mirror, and I'm just 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.640 kind of lost in my thoughts half watching a baseball game, 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:27.160 but it's in a mirror, okay, which I didn't think about. 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:29.359 And every time a guy hits. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:34.400 The ball, he'd. 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.760 Run the other way, and I'm like, sitting there. I'm 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:40.560 honestly guy sitting there, Like when did they change that? 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.400 I swear, I swear I was almost gonna ask captain 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.200 the barber. I was almost gonna be like, why do 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.800 these dudes take off running like the other way that 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.600 what you normally would run. All of a sudden it 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.440 occur to me. I'm like, oh, it's reversed. 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.800 Yeah, well you're probably excited because he thought he's that boy. 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.800 The prevalency of left handers is really going up in professional. 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.400 Sports, I felt. I was so. I was like, so, 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.920 I was so ready to open my mouth and like, hey, 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:18.879 why are they? Yeah, could have been majorly embarrassed. Yeah, 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.080 a couple quick news bits here. Let me look here 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.399 a minute. Oh, movie's coming out I can't believe I 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.360 hadn't heard about this before. There's a movie coming out 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:33.159 where Bamby goes and seeks revenge. Have you heard about this? 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.040 It's called The Reckoning bamb be the Reckoning. Well, everybody 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.480 says Bamby. But isn't it like Bamby's kid. How does 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.960 it work? No, no, bam Bamby's dad gets killed. Yeah, 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:46.000 the mom. 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:47.639 Yeah that's who gets killed. 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:52.520 Right, No, this is his old man, Yeah there is. Yeah, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:57.040 remember Spencer tried to work up how many inches of antler? 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.639 Oh yeah, yeah he Bamby and his dad had the 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:02.840 buck does get killed. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.639 But I feel like Bambi is also an orphan, right, 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.280 so maybe there's Yeah, they call it in a while 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.080 to be honest, it's a CE tier creature feature. 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.080 I guess that means poor graphics. 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.840 It's it's made by the same studio that made a 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.000 bunch of Winnie the Pooh horror films as well. It's 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:22.600 like as soon as they enter a certain form of 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.440 public domain, they just go buck wild on these things. 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:26.920 Interesting. 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.680 Yeah, So the story is like it it drinks some 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:34.520 toxic something or other and then it becomes monsterized and 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:35.880 it has like a million. 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.800 Just like Ninja Turtles, the grieving deer decides to take 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:44.400 a sip of the nefarious chemical that local corporation Wilburg's. 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.920 It's always there's always a lot of these movies. There's 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.880 the animal movies. Is usually a bad corporation. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.280 There's a strand of anti capitalism and all of these. 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.520 Oh yeah, my kids in this little My kids in 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.080 this little song and dance up right now for a week, 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:03.800 like just to keeping busy, my little one, just keeping 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.520 busy before we go to Alaska, you know. And he's 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.280 coming home singing. They're teaching them a song. It's like 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.439 a it's like a it's like a flat out like 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.760 anti capitalist song. He comes home every night and practice. 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:17.320 Is it the one from the Loraxe? 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:17.560 Is it? 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:18.320 Yeah? 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.080 My kids at that same song and dance club. Yeah, 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.920 oh what's his name? I've got two I've got two 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:26.880 kids in in there right now. I think Yanni's daughters 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:27.479 have done it as well. 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.119 Yeah, so you think your kid and my kid are 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:31.160 in the same song and dance. 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.399 It's very it's very well. He's he's not doing the 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:34.000 Lorax song. 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.080 Comrades. 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.920 Now there's different age groups and it's not like the 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.040 lore Ax was a book written decades ago the exact 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:44.600 anti capitalist sentiment, and. 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.399 So it has nothing to do with the Lorax book. 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.520 It's a guy with corporate attorneys. It's like, has nothing 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:51.880 to do with the Lorax book. 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.040 Well, yeah, but it's a it's about him cutting down 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.879 the trees to make the needs and and he's draining 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.840 the resources dry without a thought of the planet or. 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.199 No, that's not in the song. I invite you to 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:04.159 look at the songs. 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.120 Is it the one that says how how bad can 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:10.439 I be? 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.159 Yeah, it's like he's like talking about his corporate attorneys 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.400 are denying. Yeah, it's like this whole either way. 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:24.760 So next week it'll be the International that one land. 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:27.120 It's over my head. 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:29.920 I don't get it. What's the joke? 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.360 That's the old isn't it the old socialist anthem? 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:40.639 I don't know. Sorry, Kevin, you got you got stomach 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.360 for one more news bit? Yeah? 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:49.800 Yeah, coming Baby movie is coming out where Bambi becomes 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:56.439 a fanged, bloodthirsty monster who will stop at nothing to 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:57.399 attack his prey. 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:07.280 And uh, there is prey humans or we don't know. 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.040 Assuming there's a lot of blue collar men. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:18.119 Yea, well, driving around in Like there's a whole genre 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:22.000 of these movies, like like animated animal movies. There's a 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:28.080 whole genre where the bad guy is a Southern, a 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:32.040 Southerner who hunts. You know. I've talked about this one 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:33.520 show a bunch of times. There's a show my kids 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:35.280 used to like, I I didn't like. I'm watching it 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.159 and there's like a couple of there's like rotating cast 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.520 of bad guys. One of the bad guys was a 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.560 wild Game chef. One of the bad guys was like 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:51.840 a very yeah. He was a very like effeminate urban nite. Yeah. 0:21:52.440 --> 0:22:00.720 And one was like a Southern chef. H the villains, Okay, 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.760 we've talked about on the show This is news Ish. 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.720 We've talked about on the show and demonstrated in various 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.879 video projects. We've done the process called ek g MA. 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:16.919 You familiar it's a fish dispatch method. Oh no, uh. 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:22.240 My first introduction to EKGM was not by it's a 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.639 Japanese word. My first introduction to ekg MA was not 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.200 having anything to do with the Japanese and not having 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:33.439 anything to do with fish. But it was demonstrated to 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:40.280 me in South America with a a giant river turtle, 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:46.520 which is a seighti species. But these native dudes had 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:48.800 a net and they were using the net to catch fish, 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.520 and this big turtle gets wrapped up in their net, 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.320 a giant river turtle, and we're in a camp together. 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:58.520 They take the turtle. We weren't able to film this 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.879 because they explaining to us that, like, it's kind of 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:03.560 a no no, but the turtle got in the nets, 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:05.399 so there's what could they do about it? Even though 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.600 they could let either way, They go get it. They 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:13.800 go and cut a switch like a big slender stick 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.520 and peel the bark off it and basically make like 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:20.920 a what would look like a like a like a 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:26.440 hot dog roasting skewer, okay, or like a marshmallow stretch mellow, 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:32.360 and take the turtle and flop cut his head off. Now, 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:34.959 when I used to process turtles, we would cut their 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:36.760 head off. Then you hang them up by the tail 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:41.879 and it would be hours hours before you could pull 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:46.760 his leg and his leg didn't suck back into his 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:50.159 shell right, you'd like you'd hold out a pair of 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:52.359 channel locks. This is how my dad taught me to 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:55.640 do it. It's kind of gruesome. It's just how a Scofia 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.880 explains it in Legee cue lan Air. But you hold 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.240 out a pair of channel locks, so the turtle grabs 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:06.560 the channels, grabs onto it, and you pull out and 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:08.760 decapitate them, just like you're cutting head off a chicken. 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:10.680 This is just how it was demonstrated me as a child. 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.000 And then you hang the turtle up and eventually you 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.080 pull his leg and it doesn't pull back, and then 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:20.320 it's time to clean the turtle. These guys in South America, 0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:26.280 they took a machete fuck and then took that long 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:36.960 skewer and inserted it into the spine and ran that 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:42.359 skewer all the way down that spine till it was 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:48.880 in its tail, and that turtle melted, I mean melted. 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:56.000 It was just like after they cut the head off. 0:24:56.119 --> 0:25:00.119 Immediately immediately cut the head off, ran that skewer yu 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:04.200 and there wasn't because like a turtle is a I 0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:05.359 don't know what's going on the nerve. 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:07.000 Like you know, like disrupting all the nerves. 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:09.520 Yeah, Like think of the expression like running around like 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:11.520 a chicken when its head cut off, which I demonstrate, 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:13.040 which I mentioned to my kids all the time when 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:14.879 we're hunting, Like they'll hit something and it'll kind of 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:16.680 do a little mad dash and they feel real bad 0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:18.240 for it, and I'll be like, well, you know, think 0:25:18.280 --> 0:25:20.800 about it, like someone cuts the chicken's head off, it 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.960 runs all over hell, right, it's like dead but not dead. 0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:30.640 So it just like it melted the turtle. I never 0:25:30.680 --> 0:25:31.199 seen anything like. 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:31.280 It. 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:38.040 Turns out this is a common fish dispatching method in Japan, 0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:41.160 and I've gone with a friend of mine. She was koreaeing, 0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:44.679 but still, uh we would. She would catch a fish 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.960 and immediately cut its tail, just cut through the cut 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:53.679 through the cut through the tail to sever the backbone 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:57.480 the spine at the tail point right, and then you 0:25:57.560 --> 0:26:00.360 kind of cock the tail so it's still connected by skin, 0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:03.399 but it's now cocked back, folded over. And then she 0:26:03.560 --> 0:26:07.200 take this brass wire. She had copper wire maybe whatever 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.119 the hell it was, copper wire. She take this copper 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:18.720 wire and just in that in that spine, you follow 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:22.000 me the spinal core, they're basically going, and that fish 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:26.560 just again just is like done. You know, you think 0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:29.239 of a fish flopping for a long time whatever, you know, 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:32.399 and like and it influences how that fish goes through rigor, 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:35.560 and it's just like the fish is just dead or 0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:36.920 and dead. 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:37.840 Uh. 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:45.840 This guy here, there's this company, Shinkle Systems. They've built 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:50.679 a robot that uses the Japanese ekg MA method of 0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:55.240 killing fish, which they regard as the most humane way 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:57.680 to harvest the animal while producing the best quality meat. 0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:03.399 The process involves inserting I forgot this part. It's kind 0:27:03.440 --> 0:27:05.560 of like a ancillary part of the things. You put 0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:08.040 a spike in the fish's brain first. So the process 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:10.440 involves inserting a spike into the fish's brains. Who that 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:13.800 or is caught killing it instantly, reducing distress that can 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:19.880 cause the fish to spoil more quickly. Oh, oh, he's 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:27.800 not talking about what that's what he's talking about. Not 0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:37.879 running the hold Cranky Randall anyone. Their machine isn't the 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:41.320 spine reaming machine. Their machine is just a spike to 0:27:41.359 --> 0:27:44.560 the head machine. Do you need a machine that seems 0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:46.280 that seems a lot easier. 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:49.480 To make it stuns the fish to help humans do 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:50.320 that method. 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:53.639 So it's a robot that stuns a fish. Yes, this 0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:55.399 is what you get for talking about news articles you 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:59.000 haven't read, do you know what I mean? Like people 0:27:59.040 --> 0:28:01.159 are always saying like, why an article this morning? And 0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:03.680 I'm like, I always go like, eh, you know, I 0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:09.920 don't really read it. I mean I saw it. Oh, 0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:12.560 but the guy says a weird thing. So he's talking 0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:25.760 about how he's what huh okay, well making the subsequent 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:34.040 cuts in seven seconds? Is he reaming the spines or not? 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:37.960 The human does it? The machine stuns them. 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:47.280 Shinkles okay. Shinkle's refrigerator size machine called Poseidon is his operational. 0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:48.160 Steve reads news so you don't have to. 0:28:49.200 --> 0:28:53.280 It's operational on three fishing vessels off the US West Coast. 0:28:54.160 --> 0:28:57.440 The fish is inserted into the robot, which then uses 0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:02.400 computer vision to identify the speed. And it's anatomical information 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:08.800 spiking the brain and making the subsequent cuts in seven seconds. 0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:12.640 It might be that the bad this is a bad 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:14.320 writer who wrote what I'm reading. 0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:21.800 Clearly subsequent cuts makes me think that it's doing more 0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:22.160 than did. 0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:27.600 It's reem and the spine. This guy raised twenty two 0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:33.680 billion bucks for this thing. You know what really turns 0:29:33.720 --> 0:29:35.600 me off though it is one of his co quotes. 0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:40.960 He's got a quote that I think is indefensible. Where 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:43.760 is this quote? Oh, here's a quote from this guy 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:47.680 who builds himself is not builds himself former SpaceX engineer. 0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:52.080 But I don't see SpaceX engineer and think fisheries primarily 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:57.320 because they're very interested in Mars and there ain't no 0:29:57.400 --> 0:29:59.520 life on Mars. Like I don't want to go there. 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:06.640 You know. He says, we've been fishing for forty thousand 0:30:06.720 --> 0:30:09.680 years and the tools haven't really changed. 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:13.640 A little bit of his oversimplification. 0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:17.920 Yeah, are you all aware of a thing called sonar 0:30:18.040 --> 0:30:23.360 guided bottom trawling? I mean, holy cow, he's saying that, 0:30:23.480 --> 0:30:26.080 like nothing's changed in forty thousand years, But now we 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:27.640 have a robot that can poke a hole in the 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:29.960 fish's head, and this is like the right this is 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:33.200 the right direction. I'm like, nothing's changed in forty thousand 0:30:33.240 --> 0:30:33.959 years of fishing. 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:38.920 Yeah, good lilastics, internal combustion engines. 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:45.480 Sonar guided bottom trolls which can literally which can literally 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:57.320 scrape underwater spires. Whatever. There's another big article about lab 0:30:57.400 --> 0:30:59.560 grown meat and fish, which Krinn put in here and 0:30:59.560 --> 0:31:01.680 then out and another back in here again. 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:03.160 We don't have to cover it. 0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.000 No, we're not could cover it. Okay, I don't care 0:31:05.000 --> 0:31:05.720 if everybody eats it. 0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:08.080 I don't want it well, this was more on the 0:31:08.200 --> 0:31:11.800 lab lab grown fish that it's you know, making its uh, 0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:15.760 it's getting into some good restaurants or I don't know 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:19.000 if restaurants in Portland. And there are seven states that 0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:21.600 made it illegal, and the news bit is that last 0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:24.840 month Texas was the seventh or eighth state. 0:31:25.040 --> 0:31:32.560 Our own, our own great state made it illegal. Florida, Alabama, Arizona, Tennessee, Texas, Indiana, Mississippi, Montana, 0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:39.440 Nebraska have done various things to like prevent or slow 0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:44.800 down or ban cultured cell cultured meat. Texas just did 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:47.800 it in June. Yeah, I thought they maybe that's a 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:49.600 little bit bit, that's a little bit big brother for 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:51.920 my likings. But like I can't get worked up about 0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:53.680 it because that is I'm kind of grossed out by 0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:57.200 by lab grown meat. But krinn By saying good restaurants, 0:31:57.400 --> 0:32:00.480 think about what you're saying. Though, the articles point out 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:07.520 how a Haitian restaurant in Portland is serving lab grown salmon. 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:11.040 Now I haven't been to like Haitia recently, but is 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:14.360 there is there like a lot of big Haiti What 0:32:14.400 --> 0:32:16.840 did I call it? Tells you how long I've. 0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:19.280 There? 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:23.560 Like salmon is a part of Haitian cuisine. 0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:29.640 A good the chef is, you know, Wan in a 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:32.200 James Beard Awards, So I think that that puts him 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:33.560 at some kind of level. 0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:36.480 I've been nominated for James Beard Awards, and I don't 0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:40.120 feel like I'm at any level. Okay, you ready to 0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:44.480 dig in? Sure? All right? How do we start? Because 0:32:44.480 --> 0:32:46.800 you guys, you guys do so much work. Man, Can 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:49.360 we start with a recap? We do whatever? 0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:51.400 Let me start with the recap. What kind of recap 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:53.960 do you want? Can you recap for? Can you recap 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:56.720 for for us and our listeners? 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:01.080 Just kind of like I'm sure you give the spiel 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:04.160 all the time, the spiel about when we see an 0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:09.320 area that we declare like bad genetics or Bucks don't 0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:12.640 get big there. You know that area has got big 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:18.040 Bucks because it's got good genetics. What is that shorthand for? 0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:19.520 You know what I mean? Like like like what are 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.840 some of the things that actually in your mind? And 0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:25.400 it could include genetics, but like what are the sort 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:30.800 of hidden factors that are driving whether you're seeing big 0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:37.000 giant Bucks and you're part of the state you know, Yeah, well, 0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:40.920 I mean there's not too big of a question. No, No, 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:41.280 you're good. 0:33:41.280 --> 0:33:43.440 I'm just trying to figure out how to lean into 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:46.800 the age genetics and nutrition effect anly size. Tell me again, 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:53.280 age genetics nutrition cut and much of our focus for 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:56.720 a long time, and certainly within you know, hunting communities 0:33:56.720 --> 0:34:01.240 as well, we tend to off addly and frequently refer 0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:02.360 to genetics. 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:02.600 Right. 0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:04.800 It's hard to it's hard to open up a magazine 0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:09.000 and see an article written, you know, about some big 0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:12.799 buck or big bowl that somebody harvested, and inevitably it's like, man, 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:16.000 the genetics in this area are just fantastic. You know, 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:19.239 sure large antlers, and there's an aspect of that that 0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:24.360 is that is true, like to to grow you know, 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:28.440 a substantial set of antlers horns, you need to have 0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:32.360 genetics that support that. Right, But we also we also 0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:35.680 get ourselves in this situation, as we frequently refer to that, 0:34:35.800 --> 0:34:38.160 and I think I think where some of that's come 0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:42.360 from is we we've called it our our hornographic culture, 0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:47.359 where we're so fork focused on horns, antlers, their size, Like, 0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:50.000 we're so drawn into that all we can think about 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:52.600 is males and the crap that's growing on their head. 0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:56.200 And so we've we've referenced that as our our honographic culture. 0:34:56.239 --> 0:34:58.160 And there's elements of that that are good. 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:03.400 That doesn't all the greatest shirt dude, pornography hornography. 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:05.880 We got to can you check someone right away for 0:35:06.000 --> 0:35:09.640 someone steals this idea this is going on. It's yeah, 0:35:09.640 --> 0:35:13.000 a buck mounting a dough and it says hornography a 0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:17.480 big buck and proceeds going, and then yeah, and and 0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:23.080 and yes, that's perfect protease, proceeds go directly to me. 0:35:27.480 --> 0:35:32.399 Proceeds shot. Is that fair? Yeah? One hundred You don't 0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:34.399 care if we steal that. I didn't clear that well, yeah, 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:35.360 but he said. 0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:37.160 I just sort of threw it out there. 0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:39.360 No, no, no, that's how we're gonna do it. I think. No, 0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:41.080 that's how we're definitely gonna do it. We just stole 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:43.600 it flat out from the guy, and it recorded. 0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:50.160 We've used that term in a scientific paper, in two 0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:52.440 scientific papers. I mean we laid it out in a 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:53.800 in a scientific. 0:35:53.320 --> 0:35:55.600 Paper, so so it exists. Can we do the thing, 0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:57.879 and then if we do, proceeds go to you guys. Yeah, 0:35:57.880 --> 0:35:59.680 one hundred percent horniography. 0:35:59.719 --> 0:36:02.160 That's I know, I know when I see it. 0:36:04.080 --> 0:36:09.439 Sorry, continue, I just got so damn excited, so I think, 0:36:09.480 --> 0:36:11.960 but I think what that does is in and of course, 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:14.960 like when we when you take that scenario where we're 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.680 focused on the males, and then we think about like 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.759 what has happened, for example, in places like Texas. We 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:24.120 we often think like Texas and line breeding and the 0:36:24.200 --> 0:36:26.919 various things that they do to get males to grow 0:36:26.960 --> 0:36:31.640 these just ridiculous sized antlers at a very young age. 0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:33.640 And there is a genetic element to that. But I 0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:37.600 think that's part of what's just translated to us is well, 0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:39.799 of course, if there's big antlers in this area and 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:42.560 not in this area, there's better genetics over here for antlers, 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:46.120 then there is over over in this other area. So 0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:53.799 what what we did to better understand what what aspects 0:36:53.840 --> 0:36:58.799 of genetics versus nutrition go into producing large antlers is 0:36:58.840 --> 0:37:03.279 I think it's fortunately like one of the most I 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:05.920 think elegant experiments that I've ever been able to be 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:07.960 a part of, and that is some work we did 0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:11.360 in South Dakota. And with that work, we had animals 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:14.239 in the Black Hills of southwestern South Dakota, which had 0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:17.839 historically been known to grow some impressively large white tail deer. 0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:20.400 A number of Bars and Custer and other places that 0:37:20.480 --> 0:37:25.000 have just stupid big white tail deer, but more recently 0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:28.280 in the past number of decades, they're all very small, 0:37:28.480 --> 0:37:32.360 like we just don't grow big deer in that region anymore, 0:37:32.920 --> 0:37:36.319 versus in eastern South Dakota, where we can grow impressively 0:37:36.360 --> 0:37:39.680 big animals as little as three to four years of age. 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:43.480 And so the looming question with that, and it presented 0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:47.759 the situation to evaluate what you reference directly, and that is, 0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:51.560 are those animals in southwestern South Dakota and the Black 0:37:51.600 --> 0:37:55.000 Hill is just genetically different than animals from eastern South Dakota. 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:57.480 So we did what we call a common garden experiment, 0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:00.600 brought those animals into captivity as new born fawns. So 0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:02.719 we captured animals from the Black Hills in eastern South 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:06.160 Dakota as newborn fawns, fed them, put them on a 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:09.719 high nutritional plane. So we we bottle raised them as fawns, 0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:11.840 put them on a high nutritional plane, so we basically 0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:15.960 maxed out nutrition. Nutrition wasn't limiting in any way, and 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:17.600 then raise those animals all the. 0:38:17.560 --> 0:38:18.640 Way up to adulthood. 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:23.360 And ad adulthood animals from on average, so once they 0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:31.240 hit peak body mass antler size animals from the Black Hills. 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:35.200 Males from the Black Hills were seventy pounds smaller than 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:38.960 males from eastern South Dakota and had forty inches of 0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:41.760 less antler than animals from eastern South. 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:42.600 Because of bad genetics. 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:47.959 Because of bad genetics, right, and so rate surface level right, Well, 0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:50.560 they've been on good nutrition since the day that they 0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:54.759 were born, and so clearly that that supports a genetic explanation. 0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:55.799 Then at that point. 0:38:56.920 --> 0:39:00.400 Case clothes which then we then took that one step 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:03.640 further and looked at the next generation of animals born 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:07.279 in captivity. So we had Black Hills males and females, 0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:10.760 allowed them to breed males and females from eastern South Dakota. 0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:13.640 So no local bucks jumping over the fence, no local 0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:16.000 bucks jumping over the fence. No, we allowed them to 0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:18.719 breed within their groups from all the animals that we'd 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:23.480 raised since newborns, and then raised that second generation of 0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:26.279 animals all the way up to adulthood. And so once 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:29.359 that second generation of animals were raised all the way 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:32.920 up to adulthood, if we just consider the Black Hills animals, 0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:36.880 those sons born to those Black Hills males that I 0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:41.840 was just talking about. Those sons were had thirty inch 0:39:42.160 --> 0:39:47.600 more antlers than their fathers and were fifty pounds heavier 0:39:48.120 --> 0:39:52.280 than their fathers, indicating they made up over seventy percent 0:39:52.320 --> 0:39:55.280 of the difference that occurred between the first generation animals 0:39:55.320 --> 0:39:59.400 that we brought into captivity. We didn't do anything genetically 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:03.680 genetics from those those two groups of animals. What was 0:40:03.840 --> 0:40:08.440 different was the mothers from the animals that were now 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:11.320 born in captivity, that second generation of animals, those mothers 0:40:11.360 --> 0:40:13.759 are on a high nutritional plane. Now, if we go 0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:17.160 back to the wild scenario, when we originally got those animals, 0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:19.919 the mothers in the Black Hills were on a poor 0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:23.440 nutritional plane. Ponderosa Pine dominated for us crappy understory, just 0:40:23.480 --> 0:40:27.520 on a poor nutritional plane. So that what that means 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:31.200 is called the negative maternal effect. What that means is 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:36.080 that those animals that we originally got as newborns. 0:40:35.640 --> 0:40:38.239 From the Black Hills. 0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:41.120 Carried the nutritional signature of mom who was living in 0:40:41.120 --> 0:40:44.200 the Black Hills, and now our new animals that are 0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:49.200 born in captivity, they're now carrying the nutritional signature of 0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:52.120 the moms that they're born to in captivity and those 0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:55.200 moms are on a high nutritional plane and there's there's 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:58.040 almost no I mean, when you think about that level 0:40:58.040 --> 0:41:01.440 of difference, I mean, we're talking fifty pounds difference in 0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:07.719 body mass, thirty inches of antler Like, it's it's it's 0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:10.480 pretty wild to think that we could, through some genetic 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:14.240 manipulation in a natural setting, obtain that level of difference. 0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:16.880 And here we're talking over a single generation of animals, 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:21.600 those massive increases in both body size and antlers that 0:41:21.640 --> 0:41:26.959 are attributed exclusively to nutrition of mom while those young 0:41:27.040 --> 0:41:28.440 were in utero. 0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:30.160 And so. 0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:33.520 And even like there's been a number of studies that 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:36.080 have been done in Texas from some colleagues of mind 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:39.920 down there where they've you know, gone to great links 0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:46.080 to manipulate genetics by within enclosures, by taking you know, 0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:49.880 helicopter catching males and then and then calling males that 0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:52.760 weren't meeting the level of size that they were working 0:41:52.800 --> 0:41:57.840 to obtain and are basically unable to obtain like a 0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:02.360 positive change in antler growth time through that level of 0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:07.040 very directive, very selective calling. So when you think about that, 0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:10.280 when we translate that to like one area to the next. 0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:14.920 Then what that what that can mean is that and 0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:18.960 there's two sides of it. One, each set of these 0:42:19.000 --> 0:42:24.120 animals is adapted to their local environment. Not every environment 0:42:24.320 --> 0:42:27.400 has has or offers supreme nutrition. Right, So if we 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:31.680 consider placing the arid desert to you know, a migratory 0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:34.600 meald deer populations that's running up into the high alpine 0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:38.560 and you know, eating tall forb, tall forbes all summer long. 0:42:39.320 --> 0:42:41.840 So all these animals and or you know, in the 0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:44.200 arid system, maybe their winters aren't so bad so that 0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:46.319 it doesn't take it much for them to persist through winter, 0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:48.760 versus the animals that are in the more temperate systems 0:42:48.800 --> 0:42:51.839 in the in the mountains, like it's harder for them 0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:55.279 to persist through winter. And so even if you just 0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:59.160 consider that at the surface level, not not all of 0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:01.759 those animals can and just operate and do the same thing. 0:43:02.239 --> 0:43:04.520 The way in which they operate, their way in which 0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:08.040 they obtain and allocate resources has to be adapted to 0:43:08.080 --> 0:43:11.439 that local environment. So there's a side of that that's 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:15.239 influencing antler size that we see from one place to 0:43:15.320 --> 0:43:18.160 the next, But it's also a reflection of that local 0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:21.680 adaptation to nutrition they have present there, and their ability 0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:27.200 to allocate resources to antler development versus other things. So 0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:29.840 certainly when you consider like males in one region to 0:43:29.880 --> 0:43:32.120 the next, or males in a harvest from one area 0:43:32.160 --> 0:43:35.000 to the next. Like if we're going to compare apples 0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:37.960 to apples and say there's bigger males here, smaller males here, 0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:40.600 we first need to of course consider what age classes 0:43:40.640 --> 0:43:43.000 of males are there. Right, If they're mostly two and 0:43:43.080 --> 0:43:46.680 three year olds versus over here, you know there's less 0:43:46.680 --> 0:43:49.600 harvest and they're mostly being harvested at four to four 0:43:49.600 --> 0:43:52.240 to seven, we're going to see differences in antler size. 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:55.480 But once we've accounted for that, nutrition in what we 0:43:55.520 --> 0:43:57.319 see from one place to the next is going to 0:43:57.320 --> 0:44:00.000 play a much bigger role than genetics from one place 0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:02.920 to the next, And most of that nutrition and what 0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:04.840 dictates what a male is going to be for the 0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:08.080 rest of his life is mom and Mom's condition, the 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:15.040 condition you yep, So I think what's fascinating about that 0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:16.960 is then what we see and even as we see 0:44:16.960 --> 0:44:18.640 from one year to the next, well, we can see 0:44:18.640 --> 0:44:23.080 fluctuations in antler size given environmental potential from one year 0:44:23.080 --> 0:44:26.239 to the next food growth, spring condition, summer conditions, winter 0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:29.080 conditions for that matter, from one year to the next. 0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:32.239 The greatest marker of what a male carries with him 0:44:33.000 --> 0:44:36.800 actually came before he was even dropped on the ground. 0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:41.799 Yeah. That's a buddy mine in Wyoming, a guy that's 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:47.080 very very shrewd on wildlife and like a lifetime observer 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:53.040 of wildlife he was. I didn't get into it with him, 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:58.200 but he's talking about, uh, it's a wet spring, right, 0:44:58.640 --> 0:45:03.520 anticipating good antler growth. He's not wrong though, right. I 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:06.520 mean that's that is that is helpful. But you could 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:08.919 also like a thing you wouldn't hear from a guy, 0:45:09.200 --> 0:45:12.360 is a guy wouldn't come and say to you two 0:45:12.400 --> 0:45:16.960 springs ago, correct? Would not? I saw a lot of fat, 0:45:17.080 --> 0:45:22.920 does yep? So I'm hoping to draw a tag this 0:45:23.040 --> 0:45:27.200 year in order to reap the benefits of that great 0:45:27.280 --> 0:45:30.560 nutritional season that those dolls were enjoying some time ago. 0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:36.000 It's just not like part of the lingo, correct. Yeah. 0:45:36.239 --> 0:45:38.960 So, which is also important for us to be mindful 0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:42.680 of as hunters and even as conservationists when what we 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:46.440 what we see today, for example, from yield of males 0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:49.719 or even size of males within a population in many 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:53.840 instances isn't a reflection of what happened then or what 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:56.040 happened over the past couple of years. It's actually a 0:45:56.080 --> 0:45:59.480 reflection of what happened maybe five years ago. And it's 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.839 in part, and it's in large part because of the 0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:07.560 conditions that those males experienced from their mom while they 0:46:07.560 --> 0:46:10.200 were while they were in utero, and those and it's 0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:12.720 called it, it's called a cohort effect as well, where 0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:16.560 we may have years where that were just poor years 0:46:16.640 --> 0:46:19.640 or worse winters where moms were struggling in utero and 0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:21.879 they didn't they lack the ability to give their young 0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:24.480 the silver spoon right out of the gate. And so 0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:29.360 that signal even if conditions improve later on in life, 0:46:29.400 --> 0:46:31.759 just like our example with the common garden experiment, even 0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:34.840 if condition for that male gets better after that spring 0:46:34.880 --> 0:46:37.120 and summer, he's still going to carry the mark of 0:46:37.320 --> 0:46:41.440 mom mom's nutritional signature with him for his entire life. 0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:45.759 So when that cohort of males gets to six years old, 0:46:45.880 --> 0:46:47.320 they're going to carry that signature. 0:46:47.440 --> 0:46:50.399 And so especially when we see I wasn't thinking it's 0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:52.680 even more delayed, it's even more delayed and so as 0:46:52.680 --> 0:46:56.520 we consider even ups and downs and fluctuations within populations, 0:46:56.960 --> 0:46:59.480 For example, we see reductions in density and we can 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:01.680 talk about to with like bad winters, and then we 0:47:01.719 --> 0:47:05.239 see nutritional recovery within a population, meaning we have a 0:47:05.239 --> 0:47:07.400 bunch of fat moms that are able to you know, 0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:09.120 to plug into their offspring. 0:47:10.000 --> 0:47:12.880 I think what's really interesting is oftentimes in periods of 0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:16.480 population growth, will then see you know, in a few 0:47:16.520 --> 0:47:19.560 year lag behind that is when we'll see a number 0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:21.719 of very large males being harvested. 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:24.680 And it wasn't It wasn't that again was the timeline. 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:28.120 So if we if we see a dramatic reduction in 0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:31.399 a population, for example, and so that reduction is then 0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:34.560 tied to reduce competition for food, so nutrition, a big 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:38.080 winter kill yep, so nutrition improofs for everybody else that remains. 0:47:38.200 --> 0:47:40.440 So does a big winter kill yep. Wipes out all 0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:43.800 the deer? Yeah, the twenty percent that are still stand 0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:46.640 and have gravy now yep, because they got all the 0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:49.040 good betting areas, they got the good feeding areas, Yeah, 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:49.840 all to themselves. 0:47:49.840 --> 0:47:53.239 That's competition for space and food. So nutritionally they're far 0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:56.520 better off, which means they're they're meeting their needs, and 0:47:56.560 --> 0:48:00.640 then those females are able to invest allocate more resources 0:48:00.680 --> 0:48:04.719 to their offspring. So those offspring and we see this, 0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:08.239 see this in our in our work born bager grow 0:48:08.320 --> 0:48:12.200 quickly and then they're carrying that positive nutritional signature with them. Right, 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:16.160 We're not going to realize that positive nutritional signature from 0:48:16.200 --> 0:48:19.160 a male harvest perspective until maybe four years down the road. 0:48:19.280 --> 0:48:21.640 Right, So that's the thing in my little point I 0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:24.120 was making that it wasn't even accounting for That's correct, 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:26.680 you'd have to be I'm excited about this year, yeah, 0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:31.279 because four years ago, Yeah, yep, there was some big 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:34.360 some big fad do and then there's exactly right. 0:48:34.280 --> 0:48:40.560 There's kind of like two like countervailing forces then with 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:44.000 a bagged winner, because I think like the traditional understanding 0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:45.600 is like there's a bad winner and then you have 0:48:45.640 --> 0:48:48.719 to wait for the bucks to backfill, Like so the 0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:51.440 three year old deer, the old bucks die, the three 0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:53.920 year old deer become four year old deer, become five 0:48:53.960 --> 0:48:55.799 year old deer, and you see that sort of but 0:48:55.880 --> 0:49:00.680 then in a bad winter that those bucks that are 0:49:00.719 --> 0:49:02.880 born after the bad winner are going to have that 0:49:02.960 --> 0:49:05.839 limited potential for the rest of their life, but then 0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:10.319 the bucks born after that are going to have much 0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:12.960 better potential than the ones that died in the winter. 0:49:13.080 --> 0:49:16.400 So there's like a there's like a a stunned generation 0:49:17.080 --> 0:49:21.319 right before that generation that's enjoying the more food at 0:49:21.320 --> 0:49:22.319 the trot that kind of thing. 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:25.319 So we try to animate what Randall just said, I'll 0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:32.359 get yeah, sure, well, like like I'm not I know, 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:34.240 because you're a very smart person. 0:49:34.320 --> 0:49:34.520 Thing. 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:36.640 I know that you're right, I just don't understand what 0:49:36.680 --> 0:49:36.960 you're saying. 0:49:37.000 --> 0:49:38.440 We should have a chalkboard in here. 0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:41.840 That'd be great, no, Like, you know, like the traditional 0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:46.320 I think, like the traditional very simplistic like logic about 0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:50.600 winter kill is that old bucks with worn down teeth 0:49:50.640 --> 0:49:54.239 are going to die and then that unit, if you're 0:49:54.239 --> 0:49:56.880 just talking about like a unit, you're saying, like, okay, 0:49:56.880 --> 0:49:58.799 that unit will be back on its feet by the 0:49:58.840 --> 0:49:59.960 time the younger. 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:04.799 Bucks get to that age. And so it's sort of 0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:09.319 this like linear like backfilling. But once those bucks get 0:50:09.360 --> 0:50:12.080 to that age, then you have the generation that we're 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:16.360 still in mom during that bad winter, So that generation 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:20.239 is going to drop, and then the ones from the 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:23.759 generations after that then they're going to have even more 0:50:23.760 --> 0:50:27.920 food than anyone. So there's almost like a delayed on set. 0:50:28.600 --> 0:50:32.280 There's like a drop in potential and then a skyrocketing 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:34.560 potential in terms of those cohorts. 0:50:34.560 --> 0:50:36.799 Does that make you think he's sitting on a publication here. 0:50:37.800 --> 0:50:41.920 I don't think that it's nearly sophisticated enough to make 0:50:42.080 --> 0:50:43.720 make it a montieth shot paper. 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:47.680 Well, so let's let me I can essentially describe that 0:50:47.800 --> 0:50:51.160 with what we with what we observe with. 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:54.840 I'm going to get out my markers the second time. 0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:58.120 With what we observed in the Wyoming Range, and so 0:50:58.360 --> 0:51:00.080 we'll say I want to say before I get into that, 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:02.920 like I mean, so we've been working in the Wyoming 0:51:03.040 --> 0:51:06.160 Range now since twenty thirteen. 0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:08.200 But can I can I a quick question I want 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:10.239 to hear all about the wild Range. There's one thing 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.960 I want to clarify. Yep, because you kind of got 0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:14.080 at it, but I just want to make sure you 0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:18.560 get at it. Yep. Your job is not producing. Your 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:22.239 job is your mandate is not to help hunters kill 0:51:22.280 --> 0:51:25.960 a huge box. Nah. Okay, so let's clarify like that. 0:51:26.120 --> 0:51:29.200 I mean, like, like what is your sort of what 0:51:29.480 --> 0:51:32.640 gets you up in the morning. It's not like guaranteeing 0:51:32.880 --> 0:51:35.640 hunters bigger bucks. Yeah no, okay, yeah, yeah, okay. 0:51:36.200 --> 0:51:38.440 Also, let's sidestep and get some of those things and 0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:40.600 then I'll swoop back to our deer work. 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:41.839 In so. 0:51:43.239 --> 0:51:47.759 Our motto is advancing science and management, one day at 0:51:47.800 --> 0:51:50.919 one data point at a time. And so that even 0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:52.960 ties back to like the reference to our name and 0:51:53.000 --> 0:51:57.080 that our aim is to want advance science, which means 0:51:57.080 --> 0:51:59.720 I'm One way to think about that is our goal 0:51:59.760 --> 0:52:02.839 is to better understand what makes these animals tick, how 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:05.000 they make a living within the world that they that 0:52:05.080 --> 0:52:08.360 they do, and then take that one from just like 0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:11.160 an ecological standpoint, better understand them, and then too, what 0:52:11.200 --> 0:52:13.960 does it mean for us from a management or conservation perspective. 0:52:14.280 --> 0:52:16.520 The reference to one data point as a time is 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:20.040 we often joke like the amount of effort will put 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:24.600 into one single data point because our work, our work 0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:27.680 is typically if we can pull it off, is long 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:30.080 term and its individual base, and so that is we're 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:34.200 working to monitor individual animals for as long as we can. 0:52:34.440 --> 0:52:36.880 So a lot of studies like toss a collar on 0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:39.160 an animal, you know, monitor for a year or two 0:52:39.160 --> 0:52:42.359 and that's it. Well, yes, we're using callers, but we're 0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:44.600 monitoring them for as long as we can, and we're 0:52:44.640 --> 0:52:47.120 collecting a whole suite of other information. 0:52:46.719 --> 0:52:50.719 On them, generations of deal we are. Yeah, that's exactly right. 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:56.400 And so to do that, and so for example, like 0:52:56.719 --> 0:53:00.160 one animal in particular, it may take a lot lot 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:02.640 of money and a lot of effort on our side 0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:06.280 of things from a field perspective to monitor that one animal, 0:53:06.320 --> 0:53:08.319 to collect the data point from that one animal. But 0:53:08.400 --> 0:53:11.839 sometimes that one animal is such a critical data point 0:53:11.840 --> 0:53:14.840 to better understanding how what makes those animals tick. And 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:17.440 then if you take a whole bunch of those individual 0:53:17.520 --> 0:53:20.000 data points from animals and you pull them together, it 0:53:20.040 --> 0:53:22.520 allows you know, patterns to emerge for us as to 0:53:22.560 --> 0:53:26.040 what it means for those animals, notably, I mean, I 0:53:26.560 --> 0:53:28.279 get to I'm very fortunate to get to be the 0:53:28.320 --> 0:53:30.960 spokesperson to talk about our work a fair bit, but 0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:33.839 there's so much that happens behind the scenes that I mean, 0:53:33.840 --> 0:53:36.719 I shouldn't get any of the credit our funding sources. 0:53:37.440 --> 0:53:39.040 We can't do what we do for free. 0:53:39.880 --> 0:53:42.719 And so like I'm we're also constantly raising money to 0:53:42.800 --> 0:53:45.480 make to make that possible. But Wyomen Game of Fish 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:48.600 Commission in particular has had a lot of foresight to 0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:51.400 support us in some of these long term studies. Groups 0:53:51.400 --> 0:53:55.200 like Merely Fanatic Foundation and Wildlife Natural Resource Trust and 0:53:55.280 --> 0:53:57.719 many others that have been the backbone that make it 0:53:57.760 --> 0:53:59.440 possible to do what we do. And then all of 0:53:59.480 --> 0:54:02.040 the fielder and now especially with the wym Game Fish Department, 0:54:02.520 --> 0:54:05.480 our central to our ability to be successful and support 0:54:05.560 --> 0:54:09.000 us in the field. And then I work with an 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:11.840 amazing team of people in the shop, grad students, research 0:54:11.880 --> 0:54:16.920 scientists that pour their heart and their soul into the 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:20.160 work we do the data collection that make all this possible. 0:54:20.200 --> 0:54:22.239 So I want to be able to at least give 0:54:22.239 --> 0:54:26.080 credit where credit is due. And then if any if 0:54:26.160 --> 0:54:28.080 I say anything stupid through the course of this, it's 0:54:28.120 --> 0:54:28.759 totally on me. 0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:30.359 All the good things that are said, they should all 0:54:30.360 --> 0:54:30.960 get the credit for. 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:33.480 And to put a finer point on this, like when 0:54:33.480 --> 0:54:36.719 you say one data point at a time, what you're 0:54:36.760 --> 0:54:41.800 doing is catching animals by the dozen, and every single 0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:45.000 one of them. You're taking temperature, you're measuring fat, you're 0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:51.040 swabbing the nasal passages, you're ultrasounding for pregnancy, you're measuring 0:54:51.080 --> 0:54:54.200 the size of the fetus. You're I know I'm missing 0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:59.759 stuff there, but yeah, like I've gone on collaring or 0:54:59.760 --> 0:55:01.560 I guess to check in and collaring thing, and it's 0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:04.919 I mean, it's hands on and it's very specific. It's 0:55:04.920 --> 0:55:07.640 like how much does this animal weigh on this day 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:11.920 of the year. So yeah, like I think just to 0:55:11.960 --> 0:55:14.120 bring it to a more concrete level, like you're you're 0:55:14.239 --> 0:55:19.399 measuring deer and handling deer the same deer in some 0:55:19.480 --> 0:55:20.360 cases for years. 0:55:20.520 --> 0:55:22.920 That's great. Yeah, it be like a thing if you 0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:26.400 go back to the landscape of fear and will move 0:55:26.480 --> 0:55:28.239 on from the old times, we'll talk about new ship. 0:55:28.320 --> 0:55:29.879 But if you go back to the landscape of fear, 0:55:30.040 --> 0:55:35.000 you Kevin explained that you put a collar on a dough, 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:39.840 You put a collar on her fawon. Yep, you track 0:55:39.880 --> 0:55:42.200 her fawn through her whole life, put a collar on 0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:45.319 her phone. You're starting to get a picture of where 0:55:45.360 --> 0:55:49.080 did that dough ever go? Where does the fawn ever go? 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:51.360 That's right, does the fon go to new places or 0:55:51.400 --> 0:55:56.040 the same places? When? What are what are the movement patterns? 0:55:56.120 --> 0:55:59.359 What are their sort of relative fitnesses? Because you're able 0:55:59.400 --> 0:56:03.919 to look at like how fit was do a what's 0:56:03.960 --> 0:56:07.480 the condition of herfon? What's the condition of herfon? Yep? Right, 0:56:07.520 --> 0:56:12.440 it paints like an amazing picture. Yes, when you compare 0:56:12.480 --> 0:56:15.920 it to a different style of biology, might be like 0:56:16.200 --> 0:56:19.319 we flew it with a helicopter and did a count. Right, 0:56:19.360 --> 0:56:21.759 it's just different. And I'm not dogging on that kind 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:24.080 of work. There's probably great work, but like to go like, well, 0:56:24.160 --> 0:56:28.120 let's look at like a lineage, like let's look at 0:56:28.120 --> 0:56:31.359 these like specific animals over a long period of time, 0:56:31.400 --> 0:56:33.680 and what can we tell about those specific animals that 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:36.400 might inform what you're seeing when you fly over a 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:40.279 helicopter and count. That's right, right, exactly, It's like you're 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:44.080 adding a really important piece to a that can plug 0:56:44.120 --> 0:56:47.879 in or inform all these other methodologies. Yep, that's exactly right. 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:50.560 Like when I went with you, I mean it's your 0:56:50.560 --> 0:56:55.600 students are your team members are like twenty thirty people 0:56:55.760 --> 0:56:59.480 all sleeping in the same forest service cabin, like rallying 0:56:59.480 --> 0:57:03.120 out into the field every day, resting, no drinking rule, 0:57:03.320 --> 0:57:06.799 wrestling deer and at night at night like someone's making 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:10.480 spaghetti and someone's uh whatever you call it. When you 0:57:10.520 --> 0:57:12.080 spin the blood vile around. 0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:13.600 Centerfuge, centerfuge. 0:57:13.640 --> 0:57:15.960 Yeah, Like it's literally for a service cabin and someone's 0:57:15.960 --> 0:57:18.040 making spaghetti and someone's centerfuging meal. 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:19.920 Deer blood and uh. 0:57:19.960 --> 0:57:21.920 And then everybody wakes up at five in the morning 0:57:22.120 --> 0:57:25.200 and rallies out again and a long day like in 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:29.200 February and Wyoming just like someone's got a clipboard and 0:57:29.240 --> 0:57:32.760 someone's measuring deer and someone's someone's sampling stuff, and it's 0:57:32.840 --> 0:57:35.920 just like it's a it's an impressive operation. 0:57:36.240 --> 0:57:36.959 Yeah. 0:57:37.000 --> 0:57:41.440 Well, I and I think like even as you describe 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:45.760 Steve the ability to see to connect those pieces together, 0:57:46.080 --> 0:57:49.440 which I hope is like more from like a mechanistic perspective, 0:57:49.560 --> 0:57:50.760 like how are these things happening? 0:57:50.840 --> 0:57:51.440 Why are these. 0:57:51.280 --> 0:57:54.600 Animals doing what they're doing, the sort of the getting 0:57:54.680 --> 0:57:57.080 under the hood perspective as to what what it makes 0:57:57.120 --> 0:57:59.520 for each one of those animals to tick, and then 0:57:59.560 --> 0:58:01.280 as we see ailed that up, what that means for 0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:06.080 understanding what's going on within the population. And that can't 0:58:06.120 --> 0:58:09.080 happen with like a two year study, right, We're talking 0:58:09.240 --> 0:58:11.560 many many years to be able to put that together 0:58:12.400 --> 0:58:14.480 in some of our goals with our work in the 0:58:14.520 --> 0:58:16.720 Wyoming range. So we've been fortunate to work there since 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:17.360 twenty thirteen. 0:58:17.440 --> 0:58:19.640 Yeah, let's talk. Let's let's set that up. We'll talk. 0:58:19.640 --> 0:58:21.560 We're gonna talk about a specific place. That's right. So 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:24.000 do you mind what is the Wyoming Range? Where are 0:58:24.000 --> 0:58:24.520 we talking about? 0:58:24.600 --> 0:58:29.560 Yeah, so Wyoming Salt River Range, Western Wyoming. And it's uh, 0:58:30.200 --> 0:58:34.520 it's home to what either is or has been one 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:37.400 of the largest meal deer populations in the world, Region G. 0:58:37.800 --> 0:58:40.160 Region G. Yeah, like you might, and if you hang 0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:43.320 out on meal deer forums, yep, there's a lot of 0:58:43.360 --> 0:58:46.320 talk about Region G and a lot of to talk about. 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:51.160 Region G is a county speculating about its future, yes, 0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:54.360 talking about its challenges, anticipating what are going to be 0:58:54.360 --> 0:58:57.439 the good years the bad years. It's a very Yeah, 0:58:57.560 --> 0:59:01.720 it is a very discussed unit. One of the reasons 0:59:01.920 --> 0:59:05.600 that's probably true is because it's like a unit that 0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:10.160 sort of occupies a distinct geographical feature. Yes, right, It's 0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:12.120 like when you say Region G, you're kind of talking 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:16.760 about like a range, you know. It's very elegant. Yes, 0:59:16.800 --> 0:59:21.120 and it is a probably in the top three or 0:59:21.160 --> 0:59:27.000 four mule deer spots that get discussed, like the Kaibab. 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:31.520 I'm trying to think of the Henry Mountains in Utah, 0:59:31.640 --> 0:59:34.960 people like talk a lot about the agent G gets 0:59:35.120 --> 0:59:42.520 talked about and mourned, celebrated. Yes, yes, for sure, all 0:59:42.600 --> 0:59:42.959 of those. 0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:48.200 Yeah, and so that that population I mean is numbered 0:59:48.200 --> 0:59:50.840 a thought to have numbered, you know, beyond fifty thousand year, 0:59:51.080 --> 0:59:52.600 you know, once once upon. 0:59:52.440 --> 0:59:53.120 A time. 0:59:54.480 --> 0:59:57.439 And then kind of leaning into the ninety two ninety 0:59:57.520 --> 0:59:59.800 three winter was a time when they were thought to 0:59:59.800 --> 1:00:02.480 be well over fifty thousand deer within that herd. There 1:00:02.520 --> 1:00:04.400 was a lot of female harvest that was happening at 1:00:04.400 --> 1:00:07.080 that point in time to work to bring densities down 1:00:07.160 --> 1:00:09.880 because they were over over what game inficion define as 1:00:09.920 --> 1:00:12.880 the herd unit objective. The ninety two ninety three winter 1:00:12.960 --> 1:00:16.440 hit and the population crashed, and then since then it's 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.680 kind of fluctuated. I don't know if we whether numbers 1:00:19.720 --> 1:00:21.840 matter or not, but maybe like thirty to forty thousand 1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:24.200 is somewhere somewhere in there and on the high end, yeah, 1:00:24.200 --> 1:00:26.800 and hasn't risen to those levels previously and. 1:00:26.920 --> 1:00:30.120 What would be a low end since ninety two. So 1:00:30.480 --> 1:00:33.880 if let's just let's just accept I know you're saying 1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:37.040 like maybe fifty thousand, Yeah, if we accept like around 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:40.200 fifty thousand, ninety two low end since then, yeah, like 1:00:40.720 --> 1:00:45.520 it hasn't hit that height again. So the new high 1:00:45.680 --> 1:00:48.400 end since then has been thirty forty. 1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:51.440 Yeah, probably mid mid thirties. What park has been like 1:00:51.480 --> 1:00:53.680 a low end the bottom. So I'm going to get 1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:56.280 to that eleven eleven thousand. 1:00:57.200 --> 1:00:57.600 Yeah. 1:00:57.640 --> 1:01:01.920 So we started in twenty thirteen doing the things that 1:01:01.960 --> 1:01:04.400 we do is Randell describe to work to understand nutritional 1:01:04.480 --> 1:01:08.120 dynamics in the herd and then simultaneously just better learn 1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:12.240 more things about deer that we haven't learned previously. From 1:01:12.320 --> 1:01:14.520 twenty thirteen, and this was out a time when maybe 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:16.800 I forget the exact numbers, were probably bouncing around in 1:01:16.800 --> 1:01:19.840 the upper thirties, maybe around forty thousand. And from twenty 1:01:19.880 --> 1:01:24.040 thirteen to twenty sixteen, what we saw each year was 1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:27.680 just a general decline in body fat of females, both 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:31.959 in March and in December, so autumn and spring body fat. 1:01:31.960 --> 1:01:34.960 It just declined from thirteen all the way up until 1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:38.600 twenty sixteen, and then in twenty sixteen seventeen we had 1:01:38.600 --> 1:01:41.640 a bad winter. We lost thirty percent thirty percent of 1:01:41.640 --> 1:01:44.920 our adult females pretty much all of our radio marked fawns, 1:01:45.560 --> 1:01:49.919 and so in going into the going into that winter, 1:01:50.720 --> 1:01:54.000 autumn fat at going into that winter was around seven percent. 1:01:54.160 --> 1:01:57.479 So think remember seven percent body fat. We lost thirty 1:01:57.520 --> 1:02:02.840 percent that year. Population rebounded began to rebound after that. 1:02:02.880 --> 1:02:05.720 Body fat of level levels of female shot way up. 1:02:06.120 --> 1:02:08.280 And then we had another bad winter in eighteen nineteen, 1:02:08.440 --> 1:02:12.600 lost thirty percent of our adult females again, and twenty nineteen, 1:02:12.880 --> 1:02:16.800 twenty eighteen nineteen. So the eighteen nineteen winter eight nineteen. 1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:23.480 Sorry, we're working on a history product now, we're thinking 1:02:23.520 --> 1:02:24.720 across centuries, right. 1:02:25.040 --> 1:02:26.840 So say the dates again. I'm sorry I was dumb. 1:02:26.920 --> 1:02:31.720 So you aad so win eighteen twenty nineteen. Yeah, so 1:02:32.120 --> 1:02:36.320 winter's overlap calendar years, right, So sixteen seventeen winter, eighteen 1:02:36.360 --> 1:02:39.280 nineteen winter, two bad winters, roughly thirty percent of adult females. 1:02:39.320 --> 1:02:42.200 After each one of those years, we see upticks in 1:02:42.280 --> 1:02:45.560 nutritional condition following that, so body fat of females shoots up. 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:49.840 After that, productivity eventually returns. There's always a lag in 1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:51.880 a year because what ends up happening. This goes back 1:02:51.920 --> 1:02:55.080 to what you were referencing, Randall. So in those bad 1:02:55.120 --> 1:03:00.880 winters fawns because they're they're their their metal demands are different. 1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:03.480 They're some of the smallest animals on the landscape and 1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:05.680 they don't come into winter with much body fat. And 1:03:05.680 --> 1:03:10.000 this all comes down to allocation related principles, right, And 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:13.200 so as a fawn, the energy you obtain is mostly 1:03:13.240 --> 1:03:16.120 going to grow. You don't have a bunch of extra 1:03:16.280 --> 1:03:20.120 energy to put in body fat. Versus females. Adult females 1:03:20.120 --> 1:03:23.640 are done growing and whatever extra energy they have they 1:03:23.640 --> 1:03:26.920 can put into body fat. 1:03:27.120 --> 1:03:27.720 Or males. 1:03:27.800 --> 1:03:30.720 Part of the reason why we see age related dynamics 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:33.439 and antler size or horn growth that we do goes 1:03:33.480 --> 1:03:35.960 to the same principle up until they reach a symptotic 1:03:36.000 --> 1:03:39.240 body mass and so are thus basically done growing in 1:03:39.320 --> 1:03:43.840 body size. We don't see peak antler size until after that, 1:03:44.040 --> 1:03:45.680 and that's all principle of allocation. 1:03:45.800 --> 1:03:48.280 Their first prioritizing. 1:03:48.040 --> 1:03:52.080 Body growth and then so even those age related dynamics, 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:55.440 yes it's age, but it's founded in nutritional principles and 1:03:55.480 --> 1:03:58.000 how the resources they have and how they allocate energy. 1:03:58.040 --> 1:03:59.480 So even that's driven by nutrition. 1:04:02.480 --> 1:04:04.280 I want to restate that point for people that are 1:04:04.320 --> 1:04:10.040 at work and they're only half paying attention yeah. For 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:12.240 me driving down the road listening to something. I'm listening 1:04:12.280 --> 1:04:14.960 to Clay's Water, which an episode right now, which is fascinating. 1:04:15.000 --> 1:04:18.200 But I only catch half what he's talking. Monks, I'm driving, 1:04:18.440 --> 1:04:21.200 So if you're driving and you're not, you're only half listening. 1:04:21.480 --> 1:04:25.120 This is good. When the buck throws his I never 1:04:25.120 --> 1:04:28.040 thought about this far. When a buck throws his biggest antlers, 1:04:28.720 --> 1:04:32.760 he's at a point where he's seeing the least amount 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:36.360 of body size growth year over year. That's right. So 1:04:36.400 --> 1:04:38.360 he's like growing his body grown, his body grown, his 1:04:38.360 --> 1:04:40.920 body grown, his body boom. He's kind of what he is. 1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:45.120 And then he gets serious about antlers. That's right, exactly, 1:04:45.920 --> 1:04:47.000 that's right. Yep. 1:04:48.080 --> 1:04:49.680 So you can get back to work now, all right, 1:04:49.720 --> 1:04:56.360 all right, you're getting so after after those winters, we 1:04:56.440 --> 1:04:58.760 see that, we see that up ticking body fat that 1:04:58.880 --> 1:05:02.960 occurred there after. But during those winters we lose almost 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:05.760 all the funds. The females are in poor condition as 1:05:05.760 --> 1:05:08.840 they exit winter. And then what we see our spikes 1:05:08.880 --> 1:05:12.960 and stillborns after those bad winters. And yep, and we 1:05:13.000 --> 1:05:17.040 see suppressed birth mass after those bad winters as well, 1:05:17.120 --> 1:05:20.080 which again, yes, I'll say this over and over again. 1:05:20.120 --> 1:05:22.680 But that has nutritional underpinnings as well for a mom. 1:05:23.360 --> 1:05:27.560 For these long lived iteroparous animals, which just simply means 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:30.200 they live a long time and they reproduce multiple times 1:05:30.200 --> 1:05:33.960 through their lives, their best strategy is to have the 1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:37.360 opportunity to reproduce multiple times, as opposed to take one 1:05:37.400 --> 1:05:40.560 instance and pour all into reproduction, because then they're likely 1:05:40.600 --> 1:05:43.120 to die. If they die, then they lose out on 1:05:43.160 --> 1:05:46.800 all those other opportunities to reproduce. So what that means 1:05:46.800 --> 1:05:49.760 for females that are in poor shape, it's better for 1:05:49.800 --> 1:05:53.880 them to survive and for their offspring to die than 1:05:53.920 --> 1:05:56.000 it is for them to pour everything they have into 1:05:56.040 --> 1:05:58.400 their offspring and then compromise their own survival. 1:05:58.480 --> 1:06:01.920 So that's part of why we see if she lives, 1:06:01.960 --> 1:06:04.040 she might crank out three more or whatever. 1:06:03.880 --> 1:06:06.280 Conditional will get better next number of years, and she's 1:06:06.280 --> 1:06:09.160 gonna have the opportunity to try again. So we see 1:06:09.200 --> 1:06:13.200 increased still rates of still borning UH suppressed birth mass. 1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:15.360 Birth mass plays a huge role in whether or not 1:06:15.440 --> 1:06:18.400 they survive thereafter, and so what that means is you 1:06:18.440 --> 1:06:20.320 have high rates of still borning. In fact, in some 1:06:20.360 --> 1:06:22.360 of those years it's like the leading cause of fund 1:06:22.400 --> 1:06:25.080 mortality after those bad winters, and so. 1:06:25.560 --> 1:06:29.960 And and that and that, just because like that fetus 1:06:30.680 --> 1:06:34.680 isn't just it's not getting fed, malnourished, essentially malnourished in 1:06:34.720 --> 1:06:37.560 the womb dies in the womb of malnourishment. Yeah, that's 1:06:37.600 --> 1:06:40.360 exactly right. And they're born dead. That's north I never do. 1:06:40.560 --> 1:06:43.640 It makes total sense. It just never really thought about that. 1:06:43.800 --> 1:06:46.400 That has never thought about the fact that a dole 1:06:46.440 --> 1:06:50.080 would like get pregnant but then not have a fun right. 1:06:50.160 --> 1:06:52.160 Oh yeah, no, for sure. And I think to to 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:54.280 sort of sidestep. I think it's also important to point 1:06:54.320 --> 1:06:58.440 out for deer in particular, both white till deer and mule. 1:06:58.280 --> 1:07:02.080 Deer, they very early abort, so they will. 1:07:01.920 --> 1:07:05.960 Typically once they're pregnant, they will carry they will almost 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:09.040 always carry it to term, but then they may drop 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:12.320 stillborn's for example, in those in those years with those 1:07:12.440 --> 1:07:15.320 those bad conditions we have when it's gotten really really 1:07:15.360 --> 1:07:18.560 bad in those bad winters, we have seen a couple 1:07:18.720 --> 1:07:22.120 of premature abortions that have occurred, but it's very rare 1:07:22.120 --> 1:07:22.760 and deer. 1:07:22.560 --> 1:07:25.640 Okay, so she she birds it, she burns at the 1:07:25.720 --> 1:07:26.240 right time. 1:07:26.400 --> 1:07:29.240 Yep, but it's still born, it's dead, and so deer 1:07:29.360 --> 1:07:33.440 strategy is to typically carry the term, so they're almost 1:07:33.480 --> 1:07:38.520 always pregnant. Twinning is very common, and then they'll typically 1:07:38.560 --> 1:07:41.000 make those sort of like nutritional decisions of if they 1:07:41.040 --> 1:07:42.960 can do it once the young have hit the ground. 1:07:43.360 --> 1:07:45.760 And so that's why we see that versus creators like 1:07:46.360 --> 1:07:50.320 prong horn or moose for example, where if things get 1:07:50.360 --> 1:07:53.120 really bad they may just they're more likely to just 1:07:53.160 --> 1:07:56.720 abort on the way, or for creators like maybe elk 1:07:56.920 --> 1:08:00.960 well moose, elk sheep, we see nutritional signs is more 1:08:01.000 --> 1:08:03.720 strongly tied to like how fat they are and whether 1:08:03.800 --> 1:08:05.840 or not they're going to be pregnant. So those those 1:08:06.400 --> 1:08:11.320 those things are evident along along the way regardless. What 1:08:11.360 --> 1:08:14.320 that means is we're almost missing two cohorts of young. 1:08:14.400 --> 1:08:17.040 In those instances we lost the we lost the fawns 1:08:17.080 --> 1:08:19.360 in the bad winter. We lose a vast majority of 1:08:19.360 --> 1:08:21.719 the fawns that are born after the bad winter because 1:08:21.720 --> 1:08:25.280 of that nutritional suppression that has occurred. So there's basically 1:08:25.320 --> 1:08:27.920 two cohorts. And so if you think, you know, from 1:08:27.920 --> 1:08:33.320 a hunting perspective, two cohorts, then that once those cohorts 1:08:33.320 --> 1:08:35.639 would have been four to six years of age. There's 1:08:35.680 --> 1:08:37.360 not going to be a lot of animals in those 1:08:37.400 --> 1:08:41.040 age ranges because few of them actually made it through, 1:08:41.200 --> 1:08:45.040 and anyone that made it through, especially after the bad winter, 1:08:45.160 --> 1:08:47.560 when females are in such poor shape, they're going to 1:08:47.600 --> 1:08:50.680 carry that nutritional signature of mom barely surviving through that 1:08:50.720 --> 1:08:53.320 bad winter, and so they're going to be small regardless 1:08:53.320 --> 1:08:54.839 one they once they hit that age. 1:08:55.160 --> 1:08:58.519 Then, dude, I got it. I'm sorry, man, I got it. 1:08:58.600 --> 1:09:02.639 I got two questions. Okay. I I have to try 1:09:02.640 --> 1:09:05.960 to remember where I was. I don't lose track. But no, no, no, 1:09:06.080 --> 1:09:12.360 I ask your questions. Write them down and write them down. Okay, Okay, 1:09:12.560 --> 1:09:14.800 now I feel like it just derailed you. I don't know. 1:09:14.840 --> 1:09:18.200 I just got to write them down. Okay, okay, right now, 1:09:20.040 --> 1:09:24.080 not joking. I'm joking. Don't me keep going and wait 1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:31.200 to ride them there? Uh? Okay, right now, the. 1:09:29.720 --> 1:09:35.559 Lamb, it's almost as compelling as you're reading news stories 1:09:35.560 --> 1:09:36.160 for the first. 1:09:36.800 --> 1:09:40.080 Okay, there's off to Phil. Yeah, dude, listen, it's just 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:42.679 that what you're telling me is so interesting to me. Okay, 1:09:42.680 --> 1:09:48.360 we'll continue on, all right, all right, so after after 1:09:48.400 --> 1:09:48.920 the bad. 1:09:48.720 --> 1:09:53.479 Winners, there's of course, there's the there's the flushing in well, actually, 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:56.000 let me said stuff a bit. After those two bad winners, 1:09:56.000 --> 1:09:57.760 we had enough data where we can look at what 1:09:58.000 --> 1:10:00.679 determines whether or not female do you or survive bad winters. 1:10:00.840 --> 1:10:03.960 And there's a few factors that are critical. Yes, the 1:10:04.000 --> 1:10:06.160 worse the winter is the lower probability to have to 1:10:06.160 --> 1:10:10.360 survive the winter. That's intuitive, right. The more the better food, 1:10:10.439 --> 1:10:13.000 so like sage brush growth on their winter range, and 1:10:13.000 --> 1:10:16.240 in this in this range in sage brush is critical 1:10:16.840 --> 1:10:20.000 the core of their diet through winter. So more and 1:10:20.040 --> 1:10:23.120 better sage brush growth on their winter range helps them survive. 1:10:23.880 --> 1:10:26.840 Their ability to freely move on their winter ranges and 1:10:26.920 --> 1:10:28.720 just be able to move and access food on their 1:10:28.760 --> 1:10:29.840 winter range plays a role. 1:10:30.040 --> 1:10:31.120 Is that a function of snow? 1:10:31.479 --> 1:10:34.800 Yeah, in part a function of snow yep. And then 1:10:36.120 --> 1:10:40.080 we also see very strong age dependent relationships, So old 1:10:40.200 --> 1:10:42.400 females and so especially in a bad winter, we're going 1:10:42.479 --> 1:10:45.120 to lose old females and then some of the very 1:10:45.160 --> 1:10:48.439 youngest ones. But otherwise, like that sort of prime age 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:51.759 from say three to seven or so are pretty solid 1:10:51.760 --> 1:10:55.240 from an age perspective. But the other driving factor, in 1:10:55.280 --> 1:10:58.960 the most profound factor, is how fat they were going 1:10:59.000 --> 1:11:02.080 into that winter. Okay, So I think what's important to 1:11:02.120 --> 1:11:05.439 considering that and the reason why it happens this way 1:11:05.560 --> 1:11:08.519 is if you consider why animals die on a winter 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:10.599 and a bad winter, and you can you can almost 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:14.000 translate this to like any sort of like environmental event 1:11:15.040 --> 1:11:19.280 that challenges them nutritionally, and that's what a bad winter does. 1:11:20.000 --> 1:11:22.479 And for an animal to persist through the winter, it 1:11:22.560 --> 1:11:25.360 just needs to meet its energetic requirements through the course 1:11:25.400 --> 1:11:28.040 of the winter. And so as you pile up snow, 1:11:28.680 --> 1:11:32.000 that's going to increase their nutritional deficit. Pile up snow 1:11:32.040 --> 1:11:34.960 and cold, right, so thermal regulate, cost to thermal regulate, 1:11:35.080 --> 1:11:38.920 maintain body temperature, cost to locomotion, wade through snow, and 1:11:38.960 --> 1:11:42.439 access food. And it's also restricting food. It's reducing their 1:11:42.439 --> 1:11:43.759 ability to access the food. 1:11:44.160 --> 1:11:45.120 So all of those. 1:11:44.920 --> 1:11:48.240 Things hamper their ability to meet their daily energy requirements. 1:11:48.880 --> 1:11:52.200 What fat does is it's basically it's as if they 1:11:52.240 --> 1:11:55.840 packed groceries on their back from summer range. And so 1:11:56.760 --> 1:11:59.799 if and if that's one of the most profound factors 1:11:59.800 --> 1:12:03.160 that influences over winter survival, what it means is that 1:12:03.240 --> 1:12:07.440 over winter survival is largely dictated by what they experienced 1:12:07.479 --> 1:12:09.920 on a completely different range that could be one hundred 1:12:09.960 --> 1:12:12.640 miles away, and the food that they had access to 1:12:12.800 --> 1:12:15.240 there months earlier, and they're bringing that with them to 1:12:15.280 --> 1:12:18.280 winter range and that's helping ensure their survival over winter. 1:12:18.479 --> 1:12:20.000 That's a fact you don't consider. 1:12:19.720 --> 1:12:22.360 Either, not like how on the on a loan and 1:12:22.439 --> 1:12:26.280 some of these survival reality television shows, the contestants try 1:12:26.280 --> 1:12:28.920 to just pack on weight before they go out there. 1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:32.639 Got it, that's my that's mine. They're going to take situation. 1:12:32.960 --> 1:12:35.040 Yeah, yeah, you got to bring your reserves. 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:37.240 Yeah I ain't ready. 1:12:40.479 --> 1:12:45.920 Okay, So after and I think one one significant piece 1:12:46.000 --> 1:12:48.720 here is after those bad winters, we see the we 1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:52.080 see the upticks in in body fat that's tied to 1:12:52.240 --> 1:12:55.479 that added precipitation. But those upticks in body fat stay 1:12:55.560 --> 1:12:58.360 even after that first year. It stays for a couple 1:12:58.400 --> 1:13:01.160 of different reasons. One reason is reduction in density, so 1:13:01.240 --> 1:13:04.040 fewer miles on the landscape, and that signature is profound 1:13:04.040 --> 1:13:06.559 within our data, and some many people don't like to 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:08.760 hear that, especially when it comes to deer. They may 1:13:08.840 --> 1:13:11.639 argue like, oh, density doesn't doesn't matter. We don't want 1:13:11.720 --> 1:13:14.800 to hear that, But it's true. The more miles that 1:13:14.800 --> 1:13:17.120 are on the landscape, the increase competition for food and 1:13:17.160 --> 1:13:19.719 that's gonna have that's going to result in lower body fat. 1:13:19.920 --> 1:13:21.160 And who doesn't want to hear that? 1:13:21.400 --> 1:13:25.920 It depends well, so it depends upon the context of 1:13:26.000 --> 1:13:28.240 what it means for who doesn't want to hear that. 1:13:28.640 --> 1:13:33.000 What the potential implications are of it is that And 1:13:33.120 --> 1:13:34.920 I guess we'll either get to this now or more 1:13:34.960 --> 1:13:39.080 so later. But more is not always better. And much 1:13:39.120 --> 1:13:43.559 of our publics, for example, want more dear. We always 1:13:43.560 --> 1:13:48.360 want more deer, But more isn't always better when you 1:13:48.400 --> 1:13:51.080 consider it from a nutritional perspective of what's happening within 1:13:51.120 --> 1:13:54.320 a population and so and that that has been very 1:13:54.360 --> 1:13:57.840 evident within within the wyoming range with our data there 1:13:57.880 --> 1:14:03.120 and so increased precip fewer miles on the landscape, lower competition. 1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:05.760 What's also interesting, and this this goes all the way 1:14:05.800 --> 1:14:09.040 back to our conversation of why we see, for example, 1:14:09.040 --> 1:14:12.720 even different antler capabilities of size from one place to 1:14:12.760 --> 1:14:16.000 the next from a nutritional perspective, But what we what 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:19.799 we see after animals have gone through those bad winters. 1:14:20.520 --> 1:14:23.519 We evaluated what factors influence their gain and fat over 1:14:23.560 --> 1:14:25.800 the summer. And it's all the things I mentioned. It's 1:14:25.920 --> 1:14:28.800 it's habitat, it's pre sip, it's density of density of 1:14:28.800 --> 1:14:32.160 deer on the landscape, it's age, it's whether or not 1:14:32.200 --> 1:14:35.160 you recruited, whether or not you lactated and recruited young. 1:14:35.680 --> 1:14:39.080 But the other thing is if you've experienced a bad 1:14:39.120 --> 1:14:42.760 winter and so in the past. Yeah, and so the 1:14:42.800 --> 1:14:47.080 animals that live through bad winters, we what we see 1:14:47.120 --> 1:14:50.080 within them is this slight shift and how they allocate 1:14:50.160 --> 1:14:52.880 their their body reserves over time. 1:14:53.000 --> 1:14:54.439 You're kidding me, No, I'm not. 1:14:54.600 --> 1:14:58.439 I'm not at all, and to the point where they learn, Yeah, 1:14:58.479 --> 1:15:01.120 and not to not to like anti promorphized too much 1:15:01.160 --> 1:15:04.680 because it's like it took it's a physiological component. But 1:15:04.760 --> 1:15:07.840 what it is is, yeah, it's an adaptation associated with 1:15:07.880 --> 1:15:11.840 this like subtle preprogramming, pre programming within the animals. 1:15:12.600 --> 1:15:13.800 That's a slight shift. 1:15:13.840 --> 1:15:17.800 And we call it ressensitive reproductive allocation where the risk 1:15:19.040 --> 1:15:22.519 they allocate resources to reproduction in a risk sensitive way, right, 1:15:22.600 --> 1:15:24.360 and that risk is associated with what they're going to 1:15:24.439 --> 1:15:26.800 experience there after. And again if they invest too much 1:15:26.800 --> 1:15:31.160 into reproduction, they're risking their own survival, right, because they 1:15:31.160 --> 1:15:34.240 need reserves to survive. We have a bad winter that's 1:15:34.320 --> 1:15:37.719 like life threatening and they barely make it. We see 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:42.400 that shift in resensitive allocation to the level where there's 1:15:42.400 --> 1:15:46.360 slight increases in body fat that we see if animals 1:15:46.680 --> 1:15:49.599 had experienced bad winter past, even after we've accounted for 1:15:49.720 --> 1:15:51.840 all all the other factors that are there. 1:15:52.080 --> 1:15:53.559 And it's not like you know what I said, like 1:15:53.600 --> 1:15:55.880 they learn. It's not that it's not that they're like, 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:58.760 hey man, when when the weather gets bad, I got 1:15:58.760 --> 1:16:01.519 a little move. Yeah, rog ou don to old man 1:16:01.600 --> 1:16:04.439 Lawrence's haystat right. It's not that. 1:16:05.160 --> 1:16:08.800 No, it's it's like it's physiological and I think what 1:16:08.920 --> 1:16:13.200 can also Maybe that sounds crazy, it's not. There's been 1:16:13.200 --> 1:16:15.240 some very elegant work and so so that work of 1:16:15.240 --> 1:16:17.880 mine was led by Taylor Lashar, and we drew from 1:16:17.960 --> 1:16:21.360 some prior work when we decided to investigate that idea 1:16:21.920 --> 1:16:24.880 from Board Barton, who was able to take semi domesticated 1:16:24.920 --> 1:16:29.320 reindeer in Norway and ones that were supplementally fed through 1:16:29.320 --> 1:16:32.160 the winter and ones that were not, and just by 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:36.000 way of shifting them taking the supplementally fed ones and 1:16:36.040 --> 1:16:39.120 going to a natural pasture, or taking the ones that 1:16:39.840 --> 1:16:43.200 were from the natural pastor and going to supplemental feeding. 1:16:43.880 --> 1:16:47.880 Animals carried their signature of the range that they were 1:16:47.920 --> 1:16:51.160 on and how they allocated resources to reproduction, with the 1:16:51.200 --> 1:16:54.519 exception of those that went from supplemental feeding to the 1:16:54.640 --> 1:16:58.880 natural pasture, they instantly dropped how they allocated resources to 1:16:58.960 --> 1:17:03.080 reproduction because it was the potential it was a potentially 1:17:03.120 --> 1:17:06.800 compromising their ability to maintain themselves, which is which is 1:17:06.840 --> 1:17:10.440 the priority. So I liken it to like winter PTSD, 1:17:10.760 --> 1:17:13.800 these animals had this life threatening experience and there's this 1:17:13.880 --> 1:17:18.120 subtle shift within their preprogramming and to support that further, 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:21.360 and I worked with captive deer for almost a decade. 1:17:22.040 --> 1:17:25.439 You can have captive white tailed deer, any any captive 1:17:25.640 --> 1:17:29.920 ungulate for that matter, except for maybe domestic animals, and 1:17:31.600 --> 1:17:34.040 supplementally feed them the entire year, so they're on the 1:17:34.040 --> 1:17:38.520 best nutrition all year round, and we still see cycles 1:17:38.560 --> 1:17:41.519 in their diet how much they eat in their body 1:17:41.520 --> 1:17:45.160 fat and body masks through the entire year, when technically, 1:17:46.240 --> 1:17:48.760 like they're supplementally fed, it could just be constant through 1:17:48.760 --> 1:17:51.799 the whole year, but it's not We see these natural rhythms, 1:17:51.840 --> 1:17:55.920 and so they voluntarily through the winter reduce metabolic rate, 1:17:56.040 --> 1:17:59.360 reduce appetite and how much they're eating to go through 1:17:59.439 --> 1:18:03.040 those sites. And so I think the most I mean, 1:18:03.040 --> 1:18:05.840 maybe it's like, Okay, that's cool, so deer slightly reprogrammed 1:18:05.840 --> 1:18:08.479 after a bad winter. But I think what it also 1:18:08.640 --> 1:18:11.880 tells us is that animals are adapted to the local 1:18:12.000 --> 1:18:15.200 environment within the ranges, in the conditions that they experience, 1:18:16.520 --> 1:18:19.200 to the point where even within an environment like that, 1:18:19.360 --> 1:18:23.080 when we see this huge, huge shock to the system, 1:18:23.600 --> 1:18:27.439 we see animals adapting accordingly, and so that should help 1:18:27.560 --> 1:18:30.600 convince us that when we go from one range to 1:18:30.680 --> 1:18:34.240 the next, these animals are operating in ways that correspond 1:18:34.400 --> 1:18:38.720 with that range, so that they're locally adapted, which is 1:18:38.720 --> 1:18:40.800 the same reason we see antlers the way in which 1:18:40.800 --> 1:18:43.799 we do females doing what they do. For example, females 1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:45.599 in the Wyoming range are not going to gain fat 1:18:45.640 --> 1:18:49.559 the same way that female deer in southeast Montana are 1:18:49.560 --> 1:18:52.840 going to different range, different environmental conditions, they need different 1:18:52.920 --> 1:18:56.400 things to be able to persist within that environment. So 1:18:56.439 --> 1:18:59.040 to go one step further, all these things happening with 1:18:59.080 --> 1:19:02.880 body fat, the reduction in density within the herd. Then 1:19:02.880 --> 1:19:04.719 we begin to enter into the twenty two to twenty 1:19:04.720 --> 1:19:06.479 three winter, which this is like, I don't know, one 1:19:06.560 --> 1:19:09.960 hundred plus year winter, like while this winter that we've 1:19:09.960 --> 1:19:14.479 seen for decades within that country, we lost seventy percent 1:19:14.479 --> 1:19:17.719 of our adult females, all of our radio marked fams 1:19:17.880 --> 1:19:21.000 six all of them just all gone sixty five percent 1:19:21.040 --> 1:19:26.600 of our adult males. So man, yeah, that dropped the 1:19:26.640 --> 1:19:29.800 population to eleven roughly eleven thousand animals through the course 1:19:29.800 --> 1:19:33.040 of that winter. And I mean it was like animals 1:19:33.040 --> 1:19:35.920 were sort of like got so concentrated on the south 1:19:35.960 --> 1:19:38.880 facing slope in places where there's like juniper but no food, 1:19:38.920 --> 1:19:41.960 the hedgeline, the brows line, and the juniper was like 1:19:42.040 --> 1:19:44.240 almost as tall as me, where they just all they 1:19:44.240 --> 1:19:48.000 would do is just walk these trails around around juniper, 1:19:48.160 --> 1:19:51.080 just eating whatever they could, sage brush, any sagebrush that 1:19:51.240 --> 1:19:54.800 was exposed, like the twigs, everything was eaten to the 1:19:55.040 --> 1:19:57.400 to the snow line. I mean, it was it was 1:19:58.320 --> 1:20:04.640 a very sad experiment experience in an incredibly, incredibly devastating 1:20:04.680 --> 1:20:07.880 winter in that regard for that deer population. 1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:10.640 I had as it's probably connected to you, but a 1:20:10.680 --> 1:20:14.880 buddy mine has a property in Wyhoming and he was 1:20:15.160 --> 1:20:17.960 there were some researches that we're doing little collaring work 1:20:18.000 --> 1:20:20.320 on his place. Or it feels he might even been 1:20:20.320 --> 1:20:23.280 talking about your outfit. It's a Western Whoming. Anyways, he 1:20:23.320 --> 1:20:25.519 was playing. He was telling me how this guy was 1:20:25.560 --> 1:20:30.880 telling him that during that winter. He's like, it was 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:35.479 that there'd be moments, Yes, yeah, there'd be moments when 1:20:35.520 --> 1:20:39.120 the mortality signals were like bing bing bing bing bing. Yep. 1:20:39.280 --> 1:20:42.640 So like within this broad time of like really heard 1:20:42.880 --> 1:20:47.560 of prolonged period of intense hardship, there'd be like killing. 1:20:47.280 --> 1:20:50.519 Moments, yes, yeah, yeah, And so can you explain that 1:20:50.520 --> 1:20:50.960 a little bit? 1:20:51.040 --> 1:20:51.320 Yeah. 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:54.519 So again, this goes back to what we also talked 1:20:54.520 --> 1:20:57.599 about before, and that animals simply need to meet their 1:20:57.720 --> 1:21:04.120 daily energy requirements and fat helps with that during that winter. 1:21:04.920 --> 1:21:07.160 And I think this is just a really striking example 1:21:07.240 --> 1:21:10.600 of this. For females that entered winter, that entered that 1:21:10.640 --> 1:21:15.759 winter over fifteen percent that entered winter under fifteen percent 1:21:15.840 --> 1:21:21.320 body fat, we began losing them on February fifteenth, a 1:21:21.960 --> 1:21:26.040 female deer that entered winter over fifteen percent body fat, 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:29.240 we did not start losing them till March fifteenth, a 1:21:29.320 --> 1:21:32.280 month later, which, like if you could just distill a 1:21:32.280 --> 1:21:35.680 bunch of data in a very simple manner, that's incredibly 1:21:35.720 --> 1:21:38.840 telling to just be able to say that. So what 1:21:38.840 --> 1:21:40.920 that meant is that animals were very much on the 1:21:41.000 --> 1:21:44.920 nutritional edge and so they're barely getting by. They're barely 1:21:44.920 --> 1:21:48.160 meeting their daily energy requirements. And so as we would 1:21:48.160 --> 1:21:50.760 go through that winter, and that winter was very very 1:21:50.800 --> 1:21:54.360 cold as well, when we'd see storms come in or 1:21:55.560 --> 1:21:59.120 significant drops in temperature for a couple of days, we 1:21:59.280 --> 1:22:02.519 just see spikes in mortality. And that's because what it's 1:22:02.560 --> 1:22:05.439 done is they're barely meeting their daily energy requirements. We 1:22:05.479 --> 1:22:08.720 see those those drops in temperature, their energy requirements go 1:22:08.920 --> 1:22:13.360 up because they're needing to meet basal metabolic demands through 1:22:13.479 --> 1:22:15.960 the winter in that day and they just can't do it, 1:22:16.000 --> 1:22:18.360 and so they die. And so that's where those spikes 1:22:18.360 --> 1:22:21.360 and mortality came from during that period of time. Now, 1:22:22.080 --> 1:22:25.400 what I think is very also very important and incredibly 1:22:25.439 --> 1:22:28.760 revealing to the work that we've done there specifically with 1:22:28.800 --> 1:22:31.800 regards to bad winters. And if we go back to 1:22:31.800 --> 1:22:36.040 the sixteen seventeen winter, the eighteen nineteen winter, the recovery, 1:22:36.160 --> 1:22:40.640 the recovery in nutritional condition, so body fat that occurred thereafter, 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:43.880 and in part again because of the signals of the 1:22:43.880 --> 1:22:46.000 bad winter, but also the reduction and density on the 1:22:46.080 --> 1:22:50.000 landscape so fewer mouths to feed. We entered the twenty 1:22:50.040 --> 1:22:53.519 two to twenty three winter at over twelve percent body fat. 1:22:54.040 --> 1:22:56.360 So if you remember, do you remember what we entered 1:22:56.400 --> 1:23:00.360 the sixteen seventeen winter, seven percent, So that's a that's 1:23:00.400 --> 1:23:04.400 a huge difference. Entered seven percent during the sixteen seventeen winner, 1:23:04.400 --> 1:23:07.400 we lost thirty percent of our females. Twenty two twenty 1:23:07.400 --> 1:23:09.760 three winter way way worse than the sixteen seventeen winter. 1:23:10.880 --> 1:23:13.599 We ran Taylor ran our survival models for the twenty 1:23:13.640 --> 1:23:17.320 two to twenty three winter based on a seven percent 1:23:17.479 --> 1:23:20.080 body fat level. So had we started at seven percent 1:23:20.200 --> 1:23:22.639 going into the twenty two twenty three winter, we would 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:25.479 have lost over ninety percent of our deer population. No 1:23:25.600 --> 1:23:29.320 kid meaning yeah, yeah, we go back to sixteen seventeen 1:23:29.400 --> 1:23:33.280 eighteen nineteen. The reductions in deer density, the recovery and 1:23:33.320 --> 1:23:38.519 body fat that occurred thereafter those winters saved us in 1:23:38.520 --> 1:23:41.040 the twenty two to twenty three winter. Had we come 1:23:41.040 --> 1:23:43.040 into the twenty two twenty three winter at those lower 1:23:43.120 --> 1:23:46.519 levels that we were experiencing previously, prior to those former 1:23:46.560 --> 1:23:51.559 bad winters, we probably would have lost essentially everything. Meaning 1:23:51.600 --> 1:23:53.920 if we go back to the more is not always 1:23:53.960 --> 1:23:58.760 better perspective, especially in that I mean, that's the very 1:23:58.840 --> 1:24:02.639 clear demonstration of more is not necessarily always better from 1:24:02.680 --> 1:24:03.920 a nutritional perspective. 1:24:03.920 --> 1:24:04.960 In that way. 1:24:05.840 --> 1:24:08.880 Yeah, so you if you had more deer going into 1:24:10.000 --> 1:24:14.080 that winner, it's not the case that more deer would die, 1:24:14.120 --> 1:24:17.839 but it would be proportional. You'd actually have a higher proportion. 1:24:18.040 --> 1:24:19.720 If you had more deer on the landscape, you'd have 1:24:19.720 --> 1:24:21.960 a higher proportion that would die. That's correct than if 1:24:21.960 --> 1:24:23.360 you had fewer deer going into it. 1:24:23.439 --> 1:24:29.439 Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. Hmm, God's great, man, I 1:24:29.479 --> 1:24:33.439 mean it's bad. It's interesting when I say great, I 1:24:33.439 --> 1:24:35.360 mean it's great. What happened to the deer saying it's 1:24:35.400 --> 1:24:39.560 a great Oh yeah, yeah, with the input of information, 1:24:39.640 --> 1:24:41.160 I don't know, just like understanding. 1:24:41.640 --> 1:24:43.840 Yeah, there's a lot of power in that. Just like 1:24:43.880 --> 1:24:46.920 that scenario and how it played out for us. I mean, 1:24:46.960 --> 1:24:52.519 the winters, the winter's basically presented to us a huge 1:24:52.680 --> 1:24:57.240 experiment or treatment effect essentially based on like the severe 1:24:57.520 --> 1:25:00.519 the severe nutritional limitation and then the massive reduction and 1:25:00.720 --> 1:25:01.680 see that occurred with that. 1:25:02.400 --> 1:25:04.519 Unfortunately, we were doing the work that we were when 1:25:04.560 --> 1:25:05.160 we were doing it. 1:25:05.200 --> 1:25:08.760 Otherwise we'd still just we'd still be talking about like 1:25:09.400 --> 1:25:11.160 how bad winters are, and they are bad, but what 1:25:11.160 --> 1:25:13.439 does it mean for the population? And even this notion 1:25:13.520 --> 1:25:16.799 that like you know what happens on a winter range, 1:25:16.880 --> 1:25:19.800 we see it, right, It's very evident to us these 1:25:19.840 --> 1:25:23.320 animals die on winter range. But at the same time, 1:25:23.400 --> 1:25:26.479 one of the major reasons why they're dying is because 1:25:26.520 --> 1:25:28.559 of what they experienced during the summer and if whether 1:25:28.640 --> 1:25:30.800 or not they brought enough reserves with them from summer range. 1:25:31.560 --> 1:25:33.120 And I just thought about, sorry, go ahead, I was 1:25:33.120 --> 1:25:35.599 gonna say, and all that stuff would be invisible unless 1:25:35.640 --> 1:25:39.880 you had those very individual, that's correct data points, right, 1:25:40.000 --> 1:25:43.120 Like you're not going to pick that up from not 1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:45.360 to poke at the helicopter people, but you're not going 1:25:45.360 --> 1:25:47.880 to pick that up from an aerial survey, like it's 1:25:47.920 --> 1:25:52.960 a very intimate knowledge of specific animals. 1:25:53.080 --> 1:25:54.320 Yeah, and you're going to I mean, you're going to 1:25:54.360 --> 1:25:55.840 see the level of loss. 1:25:55.680 --> 1:25:58.000 Right, but you're not going to see the underlying. 1:25:57.760 --> 1:25:59.920 No, and to be able, you know, for our ability 1:25:59.920 --> 1:26:01.680 to be able to do that, Like we know how 1:26:01.720 --> 1:26:04.000 old each animal is, we know the fact that they 1:26:04.040 --> 1:26:06.120 brought with them this from summer range, we know where 1:26:06.120 --> 1:26:08.360 they lived on summer range, and we can connect and 1:26:08.400 --> 1:26:11.599 build all those pieces together, which also not only allows 1:26:11.680 --> 1:26:13.360 us to tell those stories, but tell a number of 1:26:13.360 --> 1:26:16.920 our other stories associated with how. 1:26:16.800 --> 1:26:19.800 Animals learn to migrate. What does it mean for them? 1:26:19.880 --> 1:26:22.040 What does it mean for the reproductive chronology and their 1:26:22.040 --> 1:26:24.160 cycle through the year, and those sorts of things. Unless 1:26:24.200 --> 1:26:27.400 we have those repeated samples and the things that we're measuring, 1:26:28.080 --> 1:26:30.439 we lack the ability to be able to paint that picture. 1:26:31.040 --> 1:26:33.320 And so that deer that you talked about at the beginning, 1:26:34.160 --> 1:26:37.840 that really small male, he was born. He was born 1:26:37.840 --> 1:26:40.719 in twenty seventeen, so he was born after the sixteen 1:26:40.800 --> 1:26:44.000 seventeen winter. And yeah, all day long, in fact, I 1:26:44.000 --> 1:26:47.200 mean even as for the potential of antler growth that 1:26:47.240 --> 1:26:50.080 exists within the Wyoming range, I mean. 1:26:50.760 --> 1:26:51.479 All day long. 1:26:51.520 --> 1:26:54.160 When he was three years old, I mean, I would 1:26:54.200 --> 1:26:55.559 have said, and I think that's kind of what you're 1:26:55.600 --> 1:26:57.679 referencing to Steve. I would have called him he's either 1:26:57.800 --> 1:26:59.719 a large yearling or a small. 1:26:59.479 --> 1:27:01.519 Two year old. I would have said it in a 1:27:01.560 --> 1:27:05.240 declarative fashion. And he's three, and he's three three and 1:27:05.280 --> 1:27:08.000 a half years old, and I would have also said, 1:27:08.680 --> 1:27:11.480 I can tell you what he is now. My abilities 1:27:11.520 --> 1:27:13.400 fall apart when they get up to be like four 1:27:13.439 --> 1:27:15.360 or five six years old, but one hundred percent what 1:27:15.400 --> 1:27:16.400 you're looking at right. 1:27:17.960 --> 1:27:24.000 Yeah, absolutely absolutely, Okay, can is it time now? 1:27:24.360 --> 1:27:26.559 Because this is the benefit of being the host, get 1:27:26.600 --> 1:27:30.320 the indulgent a series of very fast questions. I want 1:27:30.360 --> 1:27:36.639 to more information, Okay, hot tip. Yeah, you should start 1:27:36.640 --> 1:27:42.839 a tag service where it's predictive modeling and you sell 1:27:42.880 --> 1:27:46.360 to people tips. 1:27:46.960 --> 1:27:52.960 Be like, I would be looking very seriously X in 1:27:54.000 --> 1:27:57.680 four years. I think meat eaters should just hire us 1:27:57.680 --> 1:28:00.240 and meat eater should offer that service thing. 1:28:00.439 --> 1:28:07.479 Yeah, it's called the Monteith Labs or monte Text Meat Eater. Okay, 1:28:07.560 --> 1:28:10.760 we'll do that. Okay, okay, not a quick question, yeap. 1:28:12.439 --> 1:28:14.000 Theod Amy and my boy are driving down the road, 1:28:14.080 --> 1:28:17.280 my older boy, and there's all these sirens and paramedics 1:28:17.360 --> 1:28:20.920 running around, and we stopped well shy by take my 1:28:20.960 --> 1:28:23.599 binoculars and look, and I see something quite startling. There's 1:28:23.600 --> 1:28:29.160 a wrecked motorcycle. There's seven firefighters and paramedics working on 1:28:29.240 --> 1:28:33.200 a man who's like splayed out on the road. And 1:28:33.240 --> 1:28:38.240 there's a demolished fawn. I don't know, no idea the 1:28:38.240 --> 1:28:40.920 guy lived or not tried to miss a fawn hit 1:28:40.960 --> 1:28:45.760 The fawn was a mess on the road. Two days later, 1:28:47.000 --> 1:28:51.519 we drove down that road and there's a dough still 1:28:51.560 --> 1:28:56.200 standing there, like one hundred yards away, but looking agitated. 1:28:57.120 --> 1:28:59.920 Three o'clock in the afternoon, she's still on her feet, 1:29:00.040 --> 1:29:05.080 looking like agitated, down in the ditch. When you with 1:29:05.160 --> 1:29:08.599 your are you able to ever able to pull out 1:29:08.960 --> 1:29:14.160 of your data sets? What that relationship's like? Like she 1:29:14.240 --> 1:29:17.599 has a stillborn? Does she still hang around? Does she 1:29:17.640 --> 1:29:19.920 immediately walk away? Do you know what I mean? When 1:29:19.920 --> 1:29:23.479 she loses a fond what is the sort of there's 1:29:23.479 --> 1:29:27.200 no way to measure grief. Yeah, but like when does 1:29:27.240 --> 1:29:31.240 she go like huh, I guess it's time to move on? Yeah? 1:29:31.400 --> 1:29:34.519 Interesting question and highly variable from one individual to the next. 1:29:34.920 --> 1:29:39.960 In most instances with stillborns, though we can suspect even 1:29:40.080 --> 1:29:42.800 just via their GPS data around the birth event, whether 1:29:42.880 --> 1:29:45.120 or not they had stillborns, because they tend to peace. 1:29:44.920 --> 1:29:48.080 Out pretty quickly. She knows what happened. Yeah, that's exactly right. 1:29:48.720 --> 1:29:51.920 And also many females like they if they lose one 1:29:51.920 --> 1:29:56.120 of their young later on to whatever reason, rarely do 1:29:56.160 --> 1:29:56.880 they stick around. 1:29:57.640 --> 1:29:58.559 They will often leave. 1:29:58.880 --> 1:30:01.920 However, there are a handful of females that are just 1:30:03.439 --> 1:30:08.400 their motherly nature, whatever that is, may may be there 1:30:08.439 --> 1:30:12.360 and even defending the carcass. Still when when we arrive 1:30:13.960 --> 1:30:17.840 very typically within twenty four hours by the time when 1:30:17.960 --> 1:30:22.040 we're working to get in there, but quicker than that, Yeah, yeah, 1:30:22.080 --> 1:30:23.599 they're gone by the time when we get in there. 1:30:23.800 --> 1:30:29.800 Yep, got it, yep, exactly. Uh, here's an observation when 1:30:29.840 --> 1:30:34.120 you're talking about this this thing of like gaming out, 1:30:34.160 --> 1:30:36.640 how much energy am I going to put into this offspring? 1:30:37.560 --> 1:30:42.000 Uh it's implied, but but just to point to an 1:30:42.000 --> 1:30:45.200 example of something entirely different, Like think about a Pacific 1:30:45.240 --> 1:30:52.120 salmon when they go they're going, Yeah, I mean, John, 1:30:52.120 --> 1:30:54.519 I mean like like kings can kind of delay, a 1:30:54.600 --> 1:30:57.160 king salmon can delay. He doesn't have to stay to 1:30:57.200 --> 1:31:01.000 a set schedule, you know, he can whatever his body 1:31:01.040 --> 1:31:03.360 will make a decision like, nope, not going to go. 1:31:03.400 --> 1:31:05.080 That's why you get huge kings, right, that's why you 1:31:05.120 --> 1:31:07.600 get you could get a seventy pound king because for 1:31:07.640 --> 1:31:10.479 whatever reason, for a number of years it didn't click 1:31:10.520 --> 1:31:12.920 on and it didn't run. But these other sam of 1:31:12.960 --> 1:31:16.920 around a set schedule. It's like I'm going, buddy, I 1:31:16.920 --> 1:31:20.479 hope the river's right. I hope the river's right because 1:31:20.479 --> 1:31:28.720 it's happening. Question if I took a deer, If I 1:31:28.960 --> 1:31:33.400 took a buck from Iowa, Okay one hundred and eighty 1:31:33.400 --> 1:31:37.240 inch white tail from Iowa two hundred plus pounds, one 1:31:37.280 --> 1:31:39.160 hundred and eighty inch handlers, and I brought him down 1:31:39.200 --> 1:31:43.000 and put them in Who's dear country? And Sonora, does 1:31:43.000 --> 1:31:43.679 he just die? 1:31:44.479 --> 1:31:47.120 Cus deer country? And scenario probably die. He just dies 1:31:47.400 --> 1:31:53.360 because his pattern Cou's deer. Did you say I'll fight 1:31:53.479 --> 1:31:54.479 you over it? 1:31:57.479 --> 1:32:02.320 Because his groove his like sister, the yeah just isn't 1:32:02.960 --> 1:32:07.920 going to translate. That's right, Okay, that's right. Yep. Uh. 1:32:08.439 --> 1:32:11.559 This one's controversial to what you need to answer. Yeah, 1:32:11.600 --> 1:32:15.200 they look in your face. I just wonder about like 1:32:16.040 --> 1:32:18.320 is it even possible, Like what if you went and 1:32:18.320 --> 1:32:21.720 looked at human fitness, human physical fitness. Does some of 1:32:21.760 --> 1:32:23.679 the stuff is some of the stuff relevant. People don't 1:32:23.720 --> 1:32:25.160 like to do that kind of stuff, but. 1:32:26.120 --> 1:32:29.360 Yeah, I mean there's there's a substantial amount. And of 1:32:29.360 --> 1:32:32.960 course I don't nutrition. Oh yeah, okay, there's lots of 1:32:33.000 --> 1:32:40.679 evidence within human human medicine associated with maternal nutrition. Yes, 1:32:40.800 --> 1:32:44.280 that ties that translates over a generation. Yeah, absolutely, God, 1:32:44.400 --> 1:32:46.439 that's all my questions and humans as well. 1:32:47.160 --> 1:32:48.479 Okay, that's all my questions. 1:32:50.640 --> 1:32:53.960 Maybe a couple a couple other things related related to 1:32:54.600 --> 1:32:59.040 some of these ideas. One of them, okay, So the 1:32:59.080 --> 1:33:01.679 other thing that we saw after a couple of those 1:33:01.680 --> 1:33:05.320 bad winters is on winter range, we tried to keep 1:33:05.320 --> 1:33:07.800 our same animal distribution over time, roughly, so if we 1:33:07.840 --> 1:33:09.799 lose animals, we work to go back in and recatch 1:33:09.840 --> 1:33:11.880 adult females from that same general area. 1:33:11.720 --> 1:33:12.920 To keep the same number cooking. 1:33:13.120 --> 1:33:16.160 Yep, yeah, exactly, roughly seventy adult females is part of 1:33:16.160 --> 1:33:18.519 that is what is with that study. As we were 1:33:18.560 --> 1:33:20.040 going back to some of the areas where we had 1:33:20.080 --> 1:33:23.040 routinely caught deer in the past and wanted to replace them, 1:33:23.080 --> 1:33:26.280 we couldn't find any. There was none in there. After 1:33:26.320 --> 1:33:28.960 those two bad winters, and so it got us scratching 1:33:29.000 --> 1:33:31.960 our heads. Okay, what does that mean? Did those bad 1:33:32.000 --> 1:33:34.519 winters just cause animals to like, yeah, I'm not living 1:33:34.520 --> 1:33:37.040 here anymore and shift out of that country when they 1:33:37.040 --> 1:33:40.320 were pushed by the bad winter because of snow conditions. 1:33:40.360 --> 1:33:42.040 Did they then find a new place that was better 1:33:42.040 --> 1:33:44.600 and then stay there or did they just die and 1:33:44.600 --> 1:33:47.680 they're not there anymore? So we evaluated that question. And 1:33:47.720 --> 1:33:51.600 while certainly there are signals, you know, animals can be 1:33:51.600 --> 1:33:54.880 displaced a bit by a bad winter, which also interesting though, 1:33:55.120 --> 1:34:00.000 is a stronger signal of that displacement is if animals 1:34:00.120 --> 1:34:03.240 had a bad winter the prior year, and so again 1:34:03.280 --> 1:34:06.559 it's like this win this winter PTSD. The shift from 1:34:06.600 --> 1:34:09.479 where they had lived previously tends to occur after the 1:34:09.520 --> 1:34:12.840 bad winter, as opposed to during the bad winter. So 1:34:12.880 --> 1:34:16.120 it's like the memory of the bad winter results in 1:34:16.160 --> 1:34:20.000 a shift from when they would normally winter because because Meal. 1:34:21.560 --> 1:34:23.519 And they're like, but I'm sticking it out, but next 1:34:23.560 --> 1:34:25.040 year I'm going somewhere else. 1:34:25.080 --> 1:34:28.040 That's that's exactly right, because Meal they're incredibly faithful. They're 1:34:28.040 --> 1:34:30.200 incredibly faithful to the winter range, to their summer range, 1:34:30.240 --> 1:34:32.120 into their migratory route do the same thing year after 1:34:32.200 --> 1:34:36.000 year as adults, and so they they they they shift 1:34:36.200 --> 1:34:39.760 the winter PTSD shift after the bad winters. But what 1:34:39.800 --> 1:34:45.360 we learned from that work in particular, was that the 1:34:45.439 --> 1:34:48.280 reason why we ended up with these vacant holes on 1:34:48.439 --> 1:34:52.840 winter range was because animals died and we lost them. 1:34:53.720 --> 1:34:56.559 And remember, one of the key factors that influences whether 1:34:56.640 --> 1:34:58.160 or not they live or die through winter is how 1:34:58.200 --> 1:35:00.599 fat they were. So what that means means is what 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:04.400 we observe on a winter range with regards to population distribution. 1:35:04.520 --> 1:35:08.599 For example, Yes, it's influenced by what happens there during winter, 1:35:09.040 --> 1:35:12.120 but it again is dictated by what happens during summer. 1:35:12.680 --> 1:35:16.080 So summer nutrition, where animals go and their summer nutrition 1:35:16.760 --> 1:35:19.639 plays a huge influence in winter distribution of animals. 1:35:20.040 --> 1:35:22.600 But they're making like that, they're making a mistake. What 1:35:22.600 --> 1:35:25.600 do you mean they're making a mistake. They're not not 1:35:25.720 --> 1:35:31.479 the hack on them, They're not thinking it through. They shouldn't. Okay, 1:35:31.680 --> 1:35:35.120 what's the what's the thinking they're blaming? What would you do? No, No, 1:35:36.320 --> 1:35:41.799 I'm not I'm joking. I'm not joking. Yeah, it's summer range. 1:35:42.000 --> 1:35:44.280 It's like it has a poor experience on summer range, 1:35:44.840 --> 1:35:48.360 goes into a season with low body fat six percent, 1:35:49.479 --> 1:35:53.280 goes to winter range, has a terrible winter on winter range. 1:35:55.040 --> 1:35:59.600 Its response could possibly be I need to find a 1:35:59.640 --> 1:36:04.639 new summer range. Oh yeah, but it's blaming the winter range. 1:36:06.000 --> 1:36:10.080 You did this on purpose, beautiful segue. So they don't 1:36:10.080 --> 1:36:14.360 find a new summer range. These animals are These animals 1:36:14.400 --> 1:36:18.040 are incredibly faithful to their world as adults, and so 1:36:18.080 --> 1:36:20.280 they don't go find a new summer range. They just 1:36:20.360 --> 1:36:22.320 they go back up and do the same thing year 1:36:22.520 --> 1:36:27.960 after year. So then what that then relates to, I 1:36:27.960 --> 1:36:29.479 have two things I need to get to make sure 1:36:29.520 --> 1:36:32.960 I get to. One is reproductive chronology. The other the 1:36:33.000 --> 1:36:36.040 other is what it means across generation of animals. So 1:36:36.880 --> 1:36:39.599 what that means in that scenario and how that plays 1:36:39.640 --> 1:36:41.200 out is why did that animal end up with that 1:36:41.240 --> 1:36:42.760 summer range and why did it end up with that 1:36:42.840 --> 1:36:45.840 migratory route. We know and have known for a bit 1:36:45.920 --> 1:36:49.599 now that once once they have their routes as adults, 1:36:49.800 --> 1:36:53.040 that it's functionally a trade of the animal that it possesses, 1:36:53.280 --> 1:36:55.519 kind of like even even saying that this animal is 1:36:55.640 --> 1:36:59.160 really dark colored, Well, this animal has a forty five 1:36:59.200 --> 1:37:02.719 mile migration at Summer's in Deer Creek and it winters 1:37:02.800 --> 1:37:05.640 down in Nugget Canyon. Like it's practically a trade of 1:37:05.640 --> 1:37:08.800 the animal because that's what it does. So then the 1:37:08.880 --> 1:37:11.160 question is how did it get there? Why did that 1:37:11.200 --> 1:37:13.200 animal end up with that? And so the other thing 1:37:13.200 --> 1:37:16.639 we've been working on doing is understanding the only way 1:37:16.640 --> 1:37:18.240 to get to that is to start from day one 1:37:18.479 --> 1:37:20.880 from an animal when the day it was born, and 1:37:20.920 --> 1:37:23.800 then follow it alongside mom as you were describing early on. 1:37:24.479 --> 1:37:26.280 And so we've been working to do that to test 1:37:26.320 --> 1:37:29.200 this question of ontogeny migration or like how do they 1:37:29.240 --> 1:37:32.439 learn to migrate? Where does it come from? And so, 1:37:33.280 --> 1:37:35.080 which is also very hard when you have so many 1:37:35.080 --> 1:37:37.439 bad winters because it wipes out all your young animals 1:37:37.439 --> 1:37:40.479 that you've been trying to monitor alongside mom. But we've 1:37:40.479 --> 1:37:42.880 at least gotten to the point despite the bad winters 1:37:43.920 --> 1:37:47.040 that we've had sixteen mother daughter pairs that we've been 1:37:47.080 --> 1:37:49.680 able to monitor from daughters growing up to be three 1:37:49.760 --> 1:37:52.439 years of age to the point where they're reproductively active. 1:37:53.479 --> 1:37:59.160 Of those sixteen, eleven of them adopted Mom's migratory route, 1:37:59.360 --> 1:38:01.280 so they basic do the exact. 1:38:00.960 --> 1:38:02.080 Same thing that mom does. 1:38:03.720 --> 1:38:06.519 Five however, and this sort of gets back to what 1:38:06.560 --> 1:38:09.320 you were alluding to. Five however, changed things up and 1:38:09.360 --> 1:38:15.479 did something differently. What's interesting in that is that those 1:38:16.720 --> 1:38:20.040 there's almost there's not even really like a continuous gradient 1:38:20.120 --> 1:38:24.160 of like this one definitely did like rate on top 1:38:24.200 --> 1:38:27.400 of Mom's route, and then you know, weekends, weekends, weekends, 1:38:27.479 --> 1:38:29.840 And then we have some that basically don't adopt Mom's route. 1:38:29.880 --> 1:38:32.519 It's either like you do the vast majority of it, 1:38:32.720 --> 1:38:35.800 or you don't at all got it. And so there 1:38:35.880 --> 1:38:39.720 are a handful of young females that disperse and do 1:38:40.200 --> 1:38:44.240 something differently. They find a different migratory route, and so 1:38:44.320 --> 1:38:46.559 there are a number of them that do things differently, 1:38:46.640 --> 1:38:51.600 but not as adults. Adults is pretty fixed. The young animals, 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:55.280 a few do it, but the ones that do change 1:38:55.320 --> 1:38:58.000 it seems like whatever they do during their yearling year, 1:38:58.560 --> 1:39:00.640 so when they turn one year of eight is what 1:39:00.680 --> 1:39:03.000 they then end up doing for the rest of their lives. 1:39:03.040 --> 1:39:06.320 Like that's what establishes it. What's also really interesting and 1:39:06.439 --> 1:39:09.000 is not what I would have expected, which again, our 1:39:09.040 --> 1:39:10.479 sample size is only sixteen. 1:39:10.560 --> 1:39:12.120 We have more to go here to be able to 1:39:12.120 --> 1:39:12.920 get there to do this. 1:39:14.560 --> 1:39:19.320 But the ones that adopted a different migratory route, much 1:39:19.400 --> 1:39:24.960 to my surprise, they largely clung to what where they 1:39:25.040 --> 1:39:28.320 lived on summer range, but then migrated to a different 1:39:28.360 --> 1:39:30.720 winter range. And I would have thought it would have 1:39:30.720 --> 1:39:33.160 been the opposite, especially with regards to what you just said, 1:39:33.200 --> 1:39:35.880 we'll go somewhere else to summer. The majority of them 1:39:35.920 --> 1:39:39.680 are still residing close to their natal range where they 1:39:39.680 --> 1:39:42.320 were born, but they adopt a different migratory route and 1:39:42.320 --> 1:39:45.759 go to a different winter range, which I'm not entirely 1:39:45.800 --> 1:39:48.280 sure what to make of that yet, but that's that's 1:39:48.280 --> 1:39:48.880 what we've seen. 1:39:52.040 --> 1:39:55.599 So you're saying, at sort of the yearlink stage, that's 1:39:55.640 --> 1:39:57.719 the pattern that they adopt for the rest of their lives. 1:39:57.840 --> 1:39:58.519 Are they. 1:40:00.000 --> 1:40:03.120 Is there any correlation to like if the mother dies 1:40:03.640 --> 1:40:07.280 before they turn one, you know, like yep, are more 1:40:07.280 --> 1:40:11.520 of those deer likely to be these sort of pathfinders 1:40:11.680 --> 1:40:14.120 or what's the relationship there? 1:40:14.280 --> 1:40:16.920 Very good question, which we're only looking at sixteen at 1:40:16.920 --> 1:40:20.559 the moment, But in looking at those sixteen there seems 1:40:20.560 --> 1:40:23.280 to be no relationship to whether or not mom dies 1:40:23.520 --> 1:40:26.559 or mom lives. That seems to not play a role 1:40:26.600 --> 1:40:30.519 at least as of as of yet. But to then 1:40:30.640 --> 1:40:33.479 take that to the level of like why we see 1:40:33.479 --> 1:40:36.360 deer where we do, how they get there, all of 1:40:36.400 --> 1:40:41.240 these pieces with which determines why animals live where they 1:40:41.240 --> 1:40:45.800 do and the success that they have for deer anyway, 1:40:45.920 --> 1:40:48.360 it all starts such early in life. It's a cross 1:40:48.400 --> 1:40:50.800 generational process. Clearly that we need to be able to 1:40:50.840 --> 1:40:55.400 document document from them. And one, maintaining migration is clearly 1:40:55.439 --> 1:40:58.719 something that translates across generation as young learned from mom. 1:40:59.320 --> 1:41:01.920 But two and so that means we're you know, we're 1:41:01.960 --> 1:41:06.400 also conserving memory on a landscape. But two also I 1:41:06.439 --> 1:41:10.040 think the few animals that did something different maybe is 1:41:10.160 --> 1:41:13.920 like a glimmer of hope that you know, when things 1:41:13.920 --> 1:41:18.320 are lost. So if we lose certain migratory routes, how 1:41:18.360 --> 1:41:20.519 do we get them back? Is the question, because if 1:41:20.560 --> 1:41:22.880 everybody's faithful to what they know, then nobody's going to 1:41:22.920 --> 1:41:25.760 go back there. And I firmly believe with what we've 1:41:25.800 --> 1:41:27.880 been able to learn about meal deer over the past 1:41:28.400 --> 1:41:33.920 fifteen or so years, that something that is hampering us, 1:41:34.000 --> 1:41:36.000 or has hampered us from the past to the present 1:41:36.760 --> 1:41:40.320 is when we've lost certain animals across the landscape that 1:41:40.400 --> 1:41:43.000 migrated into certain places before. I mean, there's you know, 1:41:43.560 --> 1:41:45.120 many people can say, man, there used to be deer 1:41:45.120 --> 1:41:46.800 all over this ridgeline, and I just don't see deer 1:41:46.800 --> 1:41:50.040 here anymore. And they may reference a number of reasons 1:41:50.040 --> 1:41:52.120 why they think that is. They may reference it as 1:41:52.120 --> 1:41:54.080 an elkhole. Now it's full of elk, or whatever the 1:41:54.080 --> 1:41:58.479 case may be. But the reason why they potentially don't 1:41:58.479 --> 1:42:00.800 come back is because the only way to get that 1:42:00.960 --> 1:42:04.760 backfilled is for animals to be pioneers and venture out 1:42:04.760 --> 1:42:06.920 into new range, which adults tend not to do. And 1:42:06.960 --> 1:42:10.080 so we're relying on the small proportion a few yearlings 1:42:10.080 --> 1:42:14.120 to potentially regain that space. And if we lose this 1:42:14.200 --> 1:42:16.479 is that you know, vacant space Randall. We've you know, 1:42:16.600 --> 1:42:19.960 talked about a bunch as well. If we lose occupancy 1:42:20.000 --> 1:42:23.000 of those places on the landscape over time, for whatever reason, 1:42:23.720 --> 1:42:26.600 we lose memory to those places. What that's doing is 1:42:26.600 --> 1:42:29.400 it's functionally reducing the carrying capacity of the range. If 1:42:29.439 --> 1:42:32.120 you don't have animals using it, it technically doesn't matter, 1:42:32.560 --> 1:42:35.120 and maybe viable habitat that's there, but for it to 1:42:35.160 --> 1:42:38.400 matter to the population, somebody needs to be using it 1:42:38.439 --> 1:42:41.360 and integrating that food into the into the population. 1:42:41.560 --> 1:42:43.680 That's so interesting because you look at places like that 1:42:43.840 --> 1:42:45.760 and you're like, what is it about it that that's 1:42:45.800 --> 1:42:47.760 not Why don't they like it? That's right? 1:42:47.840 --> 1:42:50.000 Yeah, so that's what we think. Yeah, why aren't they 1:42:50.000 --> 1:42:52.800 going here? Well, nobody knows to go there, and so 1:42:53.479 --> 1:42:55.040 how do you get them? How do you get them 1:42:55.080 --> 1:42:55.519 back in there? 1:42:55.479 --> 1:42:59.200 You know, salm and there's a sorry randall and salmon. 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:03.880 Some percentage of a run I always say they screw up, 1:43:04.200 --> 1:43:07.280 but it's some some percentage of it. Run doesn't go 1:43:07.360 --> 1:43:13.640 back to the natal stream. They screw up end up 1:43:13.640 --> 1:43:17.280 somewhere else. But think about the implications of it. Yeah, 1:43:17.720 --> 1:43:20.800 because river systems change. I mean, there could be a 1:43:20.880 --> 1:43:24.680 river that doesn't have suitable spawning gravel and then a 1:43:24.720 --> 1:43:29.000 flood whatever landslide on something and all of a sudden boom, 1:43:29.080 --> 1:43:32.880 it's great, some number of fish, some fish is gonna 1:43:32.960 --> 1:43:36.200 like some number are going to screw up and go 1:43:36.360 --> 1:43:38.760 up that thing and then it could be could be 1:43:38.800 --> 1:43:41.639 something gold mine. It's a portfolio, just place a sweet 1:43:41.680 --> 1:43:44.600 portfolio effect. And also you create a new right and 1:43:44.960 --> 1:43:47.120 think about like the thing I always want to think 1:43:47.120 --> 1:43:55.320 about that too, is like as as climate changes, Yeah, 1:43:55.320 --> 1:43:57.160 there's a lot of salmon rivers that would be great 1:43:57.160 --> 1:44:00.960 salmon rivers, but there too far. North's too cold, right, 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:04.800 So as because you had that dispersal mechanism, things could 1:44:04.840 --> 1:44:07.800 just suddenly become kind of right, that's right, and some 1:44:07.880 --> 1:44:10.120 fish is going to take a left when he should 1:44:10.120 --> 1:44:13.280 have taken it right and wind up finding a new exactly. 1:44:13.360 --> 1:44:17.320 It takes two but you follow me, yeah, just yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 1:44:19.240 --> 1:44:22.519 I got a technical question for you if I see it. 1:44:22.600 --> 1:44:26.280 Let's say a fellow sees a nice buck on the 1:44:26.479 --> 1:44:30.679 last day of season, Say it's November night of fellas, 1:44:30.680 --> 1:44:33.599 he's a nice buck on November twenty fourth, so you know, 1:44:34.800 --> 1:44:37.759 no one got him. He could die from other stuff. 1:44:38.439 --> 1:44:42.719 But the next year, on November twenty fourth, in your mind, 1:44:43.000 --> 1:44:45.479 how far is that dear from where he was the 1:44:45.560 --> 1:44:50.360 year before, based on your based on your research, all 1:44:50.400 --> 1:44:55.400 depends it does. Yeah, but he's already an adult, he's 1:44:55.439 --> 1:44:56.160 already set in his. 1:44:56.120 --> 1:45:00.120 Ways so best. So we're working on understanding those aspects 1:45:00.120 --> 1:45:03.479 of males as well. Male dispersal from their natal range, 1:45:04.040 --> 1:45:06.400 how faithful they are to their seasonal ranges as well, 1:45:06.479 --> 1:45:09.759 and yeah, I mean in general, as you as you noted, 1:45:10.040 --> 1:45:12.640 they're living within their within their range, right, and so 1:45:12.800 --> 1:45:15.840 I think that the certainly not that far from there. He 1:45:15.920 --> 1:45:18.960 lived up in that country, right. The only wild card 1:45:19.000 --> 1:45:22.479 within that is during a hunting season, as males get 1:45:22.640 --> 1:45:24.920 potentially pushed around, he may have been in a non 1:45:24.960 --> 1:45:27.680 normal place than what he often is the one year 1:45:27.720 --> 1:45:31.160 that he's seen versus versus the next year. But certainly, yeah, 1:45:31.160 --> 1:45:33.479 I could have generally he was in a spy he 1:45:33.520 --> 1:45:36.880 don't want to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly right. 1:45:36.920 --> 1:45:38.920 But otherwise he you know, he lives in that country, 1:45:39.040 --> 1:45:40.679 so yeah, they're there. 1:45:41.200 --> 1:45:45.839 Yeah, when you're talking about re restoring a lost migration 1:45:46.120 --> 1:45:49.000 corridor on this habitat, like because you're it's a it 1:45:49.040 --> 1:45:53.880 would be a yearling of yearling with some wander lust 1:45:53.920 --> 1:45:57.439 that takes off down a new ridge or whatever else. 1:45:58.520 --> 1:46:01.240 There aren't going to be any other deal that then 1:46:01.479 --> 1:46:03.960 convert to that range. It's all going to come from 1:46:03.960 --> 1:46:06.040 that deer's offspring, correct. 1:46:05.800 --> 1:46:06.479 Most likely. 1:46:06.760 --> 1:46:10.719 Yeah, So it's a long to cross generation you're talking about, 1:46:10.760 --> 1:46:14.400 but multiple multiple generations before you have like a herd 1:46:14.400 --> 1:46:15.679 of deer using that. 1:46:15.439 --> 1:46:19.120 That's right, which reinforces the importance of maintaining what you 1:46:19.240 --> 1:46:23.240 have because you are maintaining and protecting memory on the landscape. 1:46:23.280 --> 1:46:26.439 And if once we lose it, especially for a such 1:46:26.479 --> 1:46:29.200 a faithful animal like a deer, we don't we don't 1:46:29.240 --> 1:46:31.519 necessarily get it back, just like that versus elk, where 1:46:31.520 --> 1:46:33.920 they'll just go go anywhere, they'll take advantage of whatever 1:46:33.960 --> 1:46:36.600 happens to be there. But for deer, their memory is 1:46:36.640 --> 1:46:38.880 like their fence around their world of what they do. 1:46:38.920 --> 1:46:42.720 And I think another thing that I think, I think 1:46:42.720 --> 1:46:45.640 this is just super interesting and I think speaks to 1:46:46.200 --> 1:46:50.920 the level of intimacy between animal, female deer and their 1:46:51.120 --> 1:46:56.040 environment is that if you consider mule deer, who all 1:46:56.040 --> 1:46:59.679 share a common winter range, Okay, some migrate ten miles, 1:46:59.680 --> 1:47:02.040 some grade one hundred and twenty miles. The one that 1:47:02.040 --> 1:47:04.439 my rates one hundred and twenty miles is typically often 1:47:04.520 --> 1:47:07.040 going to be going to higher elevation, potentially traversing a 1:47:07.080 --> 1:47:09.960 lot of country, dealing with snow conditions and spring stuff 1:47:10.000 --> 1:47:13.439 like that in an ideal world. And for meal deer, 1:47:13.479 --> 1:47:15.280 they want to go back and give birth to the 1:47:15.360 --> 1:47:17.879 range they typically give birth in. We've literally had female 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:20.519 deer give birth in the exact same bedsite one year 1:47:20.560 --> 1:47:22.960 after the next. I mean, they're very faithful to their 1:47:23.439 --> 1:47:26.720 birth sits. So then the question is, well, what does 1:47:26.760 --> 1:47:30.960 that mean for them to time birth to coincide with 1:47:31.000 --> 1:47:33.320 when food is available on their summer range and for 1:47:33.360 --> 1:47:36.439 their ability to get to their summer range to give birth. 1:47:37.160 --> 1:47:40.440 And so we looked at that in as we talked earlier, 1:47:40.800 --> 1:47:43.080 we not only see animals on the day they're bone, 1:47:43.120 --> 1:47:45.240 but we also see them in utero. So when we 1:47:45.400 --> 1:47:49.120 recatch females in March, we see the fetuses in utero 1:47:49.160 --> 1:47:51.640 and we measure their eye diameter, which gives us an 1:47:51.640 --> 1:47:54.920 indication of how far along in gestation they are. So 1:47:54.960 --> 1:47:57.880 we've been able to put those pieces together to look 1:47:57.920 --> 1:48:02.040 at what factors influence eye diameter in March, so that 1:48:02.240 --> 1:48:06.760 gestational progression, what determines where they are in March, and 1:48:06.760 --> 1:48:09.320 then what does that mean thereafter Because one of the 1:48:09.360 --> 1:48:12.960 strongest signals that determines when animals give birth is how 1:48:13.000 --> 1:48:14.800 far along they were in gestation in March, So we 1:48:14.800 --> 1:48:17.480 can use fetal eye diameter. In fact, we use it 1:48:17.520 --> 1:48:20.800 to help guide our planning in the spring when we're 1:48:20.840 --> 1:48:24.200 going to catch mule, deer fonds or bigcorn sheep lambs. 1:48:24.240 --> 1:48:26.840 The anticipation of who's going to give birth when we 1:48:26.920 --> 1:48:29.040 use fetal eye diameter that we measured in March. 1:48:29.160 --> 1:48:32.760 But that's like fine tuning within a pretty narrow window. 1:48:32.439 --> 1:48:35.840 Though to some degree for sheep it can be pretty broad. 1:48:36.280 --> 1:48:39.639 But for deer, yes, it's fine tuning within a narrow window. 1:48:40.680 --> 1:48:43.599 That said what we so we then looked at so 1:48:43.680 --> 1:48:45.960 since fetal eye diameter plays such a major role in 1:48:46.000 --> 1:48:48.200 when they give birth, we looked at factors that influence 1:48:48.200 --> 1:48:51.200 fetal eye diameter. Uh and I think one of the 1:48:51.240 --> 1:48:55.280 most fascinating aspects that influence fetal eye diameter is how 1:48:55.439 --> 1:49:00.879 far they migrate. So animals that migrate further have smaller 1:49:00.920 --> 1:49:05.120 eye diameter in March than those that migrate short distances, 1:49:06.200 --> 1:49:08.599 if that may. So the ones that migrate short distances 1:49:08.600 --> 1:49:11.599 are further along in gestation in March, which means they're 1:49:11.640 --> 1:49:16.160 going to give birth sooner to be that's right. That's right, 1:49:16.200 --> 1:49:18.519 and greenup is going to happen faster on that range 1:49:18.560 --> 1:49:20.360 than the range that's way up in the mountains. So 1:49:22.080 --> 1:49:25.839 in it the influence is roughly for every ten miles 1:49:25.880 --> 1:49:30.680 migration migrated. Based on our models, for every ten miles migrated, 1:49:31.280 --> 1:49:35.400 that's one day behind in gestation. So for an animal 1:49:35.439 --> 1:49:38.080 that basically hardly migrates to an animal that migrates one 1:49:38.160 --> 1:49:42.559 hundred miles, can be ten days expected differences based on 1:49:42.560 --> 1:49:44.599 their feetal eye diameter from when they're going to give birth. 1:49:44.600 --> 1:49:46.559 That animal that migrates one hundred miles is going to 1:49:47.240 --> 1:49:50.960 give birth ten days later. Now to take that one 1:49:50.960 --> 1:49:54.320 step further, and this happened, I forget the exact year. 1:49:54.400 --> 1:49:58.040 It is twenty twenty. On June second, I was with 1:49:58.080 --> 1:50:00.360 one of my team members, Ran and Jacobak and we 1:50:00.479 --> 1:50:06.040 went into deer ninety six, up into where she gave 1:50:06.080 --> 1:50:09.920 birth that morning, collared her twin fawns, and then we 1:50:10.000 --> 1:50:11.840 went on and did other work the rest of the day, 1:50:12.040 --> 1:50:14.799 and then we got a birth notification from a vagineal 1:50:14.840 --> 1:50:17.879 implant transmitter later that evening. We were about two hours 1:50:17.920 --> 1:50:21.040 before before dark and we're looking at it and the 1:50:21.120 --> 1:50:23.960 animal that we just got a birth notification from was 1:50:23.960 --> 1:50:26.320 about three hundred yards down from where we had just 1:50:26.400 --> 1:50:29.439 been that morning collaring twin fonns from ninety six, And 1:50:29.479 --> 1:50:31.360 I'm like, man, wouldn't be cool to hustle in there 1:50:31.400 --> 1:50:33.360 to see if we can call her. Like, two animals 1:50:33.360 --> 1:50:34.840 give birth on the same day that live in the 1:50:34.880 --> 1:50:37.479 same place, So we hustled in there and then collared 1:50:37.479 --> 1:50:39.679 the single fond from that female on that same day. 1:50:39.720 --> 1:50:42.599 So which makes sense, right, animals living in this same 1:50:42.680 --> 1:50:46.080 area giving birth on the same day. So ninety six 1:50:46.160 --> 1:50:48.120 was the one that was up the ridge, and then 1:50:48.120 --> 1:50:50.000 it was MFO that was down. 1:50:49.840 --> 1:50:50.639 Below the ridge. 1:50:50.720 --> 1:50:57.320 Now we had three years earlier, in spring of twenty seventeen, 1:50:58.120 --> 1:51:02.280 we had collared mfoh who had just been born to 1:51:02.479 --> 1:51:07.960 ninety six in that same place on June third, So I. 1:51:07.920 --> 1:51:10.800 Got lost, mom and grandma are giving mom and daughter. 1:51:10.960 --> 1:51:14.080 So MFO who we went in that afternoon to call 1:51:14.080 --> 1:51:16.960 her fone was ninety six's. 1:51:16.600 --> 1:51:18.519 Daughter from three years prior. 1:51:18.720 --> 1:51:23.519 Oh, really really ninety six's daughter from three years prior, 1:51:24.200 --> 1:51:27.360 giving birth on the exact same day on June second, and. 1:51:28.640 --> 1:51:29.720 Three hundred yards down the hill. 1:51:29.800 --> 1:51:33.600 Yeah, exactly same place, same birth date. And also she 1:51:33.680 --> 1:51:37.680 had been born one day difference in the calendar three 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:46.160 years prior. So and while that's like seemingly an anecdote, 1:51:46.760 --> 1:51:49.760 we've seen it and had it happen multiple times. Within 1:51:49.800 --> 1:51:53.280 these family groups, which indicates to us that not only 1:51:53.520 --> 1:51:56.880 are is space on the landscape, migratory routes on the 1:51:56.960 --> 1:52:01.719 landscape inherited across generational time, but even their reproductive synchrony, 1:52:01.720 --> 1:52:05.000 the reproductive chronology is inherited across generational time. Like that's 1:52:05.040 --> 1:52:07.320 how in sync they are with their environment. And now 1:52:07.320 --> 1:52:10.080 I think what's also equally facinating if you consider how 1:52:10.120 --> 1:52:13.560 the mule deer rut happens, not all of it, but 1:52:13.600 --> 1:52:15.080 a lot of it happens down to winter range, right, 1:52:15.120 --> 1:52:17.280 they migrate down to winter range, and so on winter range, 1:52:17.280 --> 1:52:19.880 we have all these animals with all these different migratory 1:52:19.960 --> 1:52:22.000 tactics that are showing up on winter range, and they're 1:52:22.040 --> 1:52:25.439 all rutting in this same place. And then but what 1:52:25.479 --> 1:52:28.840 it means is what's happening is Gladys over here, who 1:52:28.880 --> 1:52:32.799 migrates ten miles, she you know, she comes into Estris 1:52:32.880 --> 1:52:37.400 on November twentieth. But then Jennifer over here, who migrates 1:52:37.439 --> 1:52:40.320 one hundred miles, she doesn't come into Estris until ten 1:52:40.360 --> 1:52:45.760 days later on December first. Right, even though they're on 1:52:45.800 --> 1:52:48.920 the same winter range in the same place, their estra 1:52:49.040 --> 1:52:52.240 cycle is tied to actually where they go during the 1:52:52.240 --> 1:52:54.639 summer and it has virtually nothing to do with where 1:52:54.640 --> 1:52:56.320 they're at on that day on winter range. 1:52:57.720 --> 1:53:09.120 Damn. Yeah. Besides seeing a lot of stuff that dudes say, 1:53:11.880 --> 1:53:16.360 do you see things that state game agencies are doing 1:53:17.200 --> 1:53:20.040 or the way they're thinking about these issues? And management? 1:53:20.080 --> 1:53:22.400 Do you see things that you're like that just doesn't 1:53:22.640 --> 1:53:26.400 make any sense. You're you're wanting me to like step 1:53:26.400 --> 1:53:29.360 on a landline? Yeah, I would like that. 1:53:29.439 --> 1:53:32.600 How far? How long does it take for the management 1:53:32.640 --> 1:53:33.880 to catch up with the science? 1:53:34.240 --> 1:53:37.759 And are you a communication with everybody? Well? 1:53:37.960 --> 1:53:42.240 So, no matter there's one challenge with all of this, right, 1:53:42.320 --> 1:53:45.439 no matter what, we're all we're all people, and we've 1:53:45.520 --> 1:53:48.719 all we've all done things a number of different ways, 1:53:48.760 --> 1:53:51.200 and we've just accepted them to be true over time 1:53:51.800 --> 1:53:55.519 without necessarily pausing and saying, wait, why do I think that? 1:53:55.800 --> 1:53:58.160 Where did that come from? What evidence support it? 1:53:58.240 --> 1:54:00.519 And it just do I think the screaming my kids 1:54:00.520 --> 1:54:04.080 all the time? Yeah? Yeah, is helping. That's exactly right, 1:54:04.120 --> 1:54:04.680 and help with me. 1:54:04.800 --> 1:54:08.920 I mean, so a fascinating example that like when I 1:54:08.960 --> 1:54:11.040 grew up in I mean grew up in northeastern South 1:54:11.120 --> 1:54:14.160 Dakota and we hunted deer every year, white tail deer 1:54:14.200 --> 1:54:17.960 every year, just locally there to feed our family. And 1:54:18.120 --> 1:54:20.639 my dad and my grandpa always used to say, like, man, 1:54:20.720 --> 1:54:22.360 the deer fat this year. I guess we're going to 1:54:22.400 --> 1:54:24.880 have a bad winter. Like they would say that. 1:54:24.840 --> 1:54:25.679 Over and over again. 1:54:26.200 --> 1:54:29.599 And I mean I remember as a kid thinking, wait, 1:54:30.360 --> 1:54:32.120 how do they know it's going to be a bad winter? 1:54:32.600 --> 1:54:35.080 How do they know to prepare for a bad winter? 1:54:35.760 --> 1:54:37.880 And the thing is we know now like they don't 1:54:38.200 --> 1:54:41.440 like that that is is technically not the case, although 1:54:42.160 --> 1:54:45.040 if you consider it relative to local adaptation and then 1:54:45.040 --> 1:54:47.240 the example that we just talked about with this pre 1:54:47.280 --> 1:54:50.480 programming and allocation of reserves after experiencing a bad winter, 1:54:50.840 --> 1:54:54.040 there's simultaneously some truth to that because it's tied to 1:54:54.120 --> 1:54:57.880 what animals have experience. Maybe less so of knowing they're 1:54:57.880 --> 1:55:00.120 going to experience something, but it's it's a social it 1:55:00.320 --> 1:55:02.400 was happened in the past, and so I think there's 1:55:02.440 --> 1:55:06.640 just many things that we operate within that we just 1:55:06.720 --> 1:55:08.920 we generally don't question. This is just how we do things, 1:55:08.920 --> 1:55:11.440 and so that's that's where we go. That's where we go. 1:55:11.560 --> 1:55:16.000 And so there's there's always there's always some you know 1:55:16.120 --> 1:55:20.320 some challenges in rethinking where we have been and being 1:55:20.360 --> 1:55:22.879 willing to reconsider new information. 1:55:23.000 --> 1:55:23.640 I think that's hard. 1:55:23.720 --> 1:55:29.240 That's hard for anybody, being diplomatic probably, And the thing you. 1:55:29.680 --> 1:55:37.000 Sometimes look at management strategies and management practices and think 1:55:37.040 --> 1:55:39.200 to yourself, it just doesn't make any sense. 1:55:40.440 --> 1:55:46.400 Well, sure, okay, sure, But I can also like there 1:55:46.440 --> 1:55:49.760 there's also and I mean with full respect for my 1:55:50.080 --> 1:55:53.560 for my colleagues with management agencies, like, we're also stuck 1:55:53.600 --> 1:55:57.760 in this difficult position where it's not necessarily difficult position, 1:55:57.840 --> 1:56:02.080 but they manage a while resources in trust right fundamental 1:56:02.160 --> 1:56:04.680 aspect of the North American model. We're all owners of it, 1:56:05.560 --> 1:56:07.560 but it's managing it as a trust on behalf of 1:56:07.560 --> 1:56:10.000 the public. And so what that means is they don't 1:56:10.000 --> 1:56:11.680 get to just sit in a room and just say, well, 1:56:11.680 --> 1:56:13.760 here's what we're going to do because biologically this is 1:56:13.800 --> 1:56:14.480 the best thing to do. 1:56:15.040 --> 1:56:16.560 They also have to consider. 1:56:16.200 --> 1:56:19.680 What the public wants, social pressures, and so it can 1:56:19.680 --> 1:56:23.240 be an incredibly difficult balance at times. And so oftentimes 1:56:23.240 --> 1:56:25.680 I view it as, yes, we need to as we 1:56:25.800 --> 1:56:27.879 learn things, what can that mean for us in updating 1:56:27.880 --> 1:56:31.400 how we think about various management practices? For sure, that's 1:56:31.480 --> 1:56:34.560 like maybe that's like, you know, baseline level of what 1:56:34.600 --> 1:56:37.240 does it mean for us as we consider management practices, 1:56:37.840 --> 1:56:41.040 But then we don't you know, to then take that 1:56:41.120 --> 1:56:44.600 the next step. We don't necessarily get the opportunity to say, hey, 1:56:44.600 --> 1:56:47.360 we're going to change this. We need to be able 1:56:47.400 --> 1:56:49.800 to bring that information to the public, which is also 1:56:50.280 --> 1:56:53.600 what's so incredibly valuable, like of your platform here in 1:56:53.720 --> 1:56:56.640 ability to be able to speak about these things is like, 1:56:56.840 --> 1:56:59.800 what's critical is that we can bring this information to 1:56:59.840 --> 1:57:02.520 the public because there are a lot of things that 1:57:02.560 --> 1:57:05.440 were just stuck on that have happened for a really 1:57:05.680 --> 1:57:08.320 really long time that oh, this is a solution, this 1:57:08.400 --> 1:57:10.000 is this is what we need to do. But it's 1:57:10.000 --> 1:57:12.800 not as simple as that. So being able to communicate 1:57:12.840 --> 1:57:15.760 it and in meaningful ways that connects with people and 1:57:15.800 --> 1:57:20.080 maybe change their perspective on things is sort of like 1:57:20.160 --> 1:57:23.880 ground zero for helping institute management change. 1:57:24.600 --> 1:57:31.760 Would you ever have the time and appetite to take 1:57:31.880 --> 1:57:38.960 your data sets from your box and take a look 1:57:39.000 --> 1:57:43.480 at lunar phase stuff with the rent? Does this interest 1:57:43.520 --> 1:57:43.840 you at all? 1:57:44.040 --> 1:57:47.959 Well, so I have just that with movement, Yeah, yeah, movement, 1:57:48.160 --> 1:57:51.000 we certainly could we absolutely could. And you're talking from 1:57:51.080 --> 1:57:53.240 like a ret perspective because there's so much focus on 1:57:53.800 --> 1:57:55.320 or are you talking like during the hunting season. 1:57:55.480 --> 1:57:57.560 Just the idea, just it would be the I mean, 1:57:57.600 --> 1:57:59.360 you could go down a million rabbit holes, which is 1:57:59.440 --> 1:58:03.680 generally that deer are moving at different times, moving in 1:58:03.720 --> 1:58:08.760 different places, different feeding patterns. According to Moonface, we absolutely could, 1:58:09.080 --> 1:58:11.200 and you could take because you have so much data, 1:58:11.440 --> 1:58:13.760 someone could go in and look at what you got 1:58:13.800 --> 1:58:16.440 and map it out to twenty eight day lunar cycles 1:58:16.600 --> 1:58:21.200 and say like, uh lo and behold, they do seem 1:58:21.240 --> 1:58:24.520 to be they do seem to behave differently according to 1:58:24.560 --> 1:58:26.400 the lunar or you'd be like, we can't find it. 1:58:26.960 --> 1:58:28.760 You know, that would be that would be very helpful 1:58:28.800 --> 1:58:31.560 to me. But yes, thank you for doing that. So 1:58:31.680 --> 1:58:33.960 we need to with our T shirt proceeds. Should we 1:58:34.040 --> 1:58:39.440 like in dow a absolutely like research center for studies. 1:58:41.400 --> 1:58:44.000 There is a center for I'm just taking an intern 1:58:44.360 --> 1:58:45.240 crunching some numbers. 1:58:45.400 --> 1:58:47.360 I already talked to someone the other day about that 1:58:47.440 --> 1:58:51.960 we might have them on the show. Totally debunks that. 1:58:52.880 --> 1:58:55.600 He debunked, Well, maybe he can. Can you have to 1:58:55.880 --> 1:58:57.680 lend your data sets out is that. 1:58:57.640 --> 1:59:03.200 Anything in collaboration. Yeah, it all depends, but in collaboration. Yeah. Uh, 1:59:03.240 --> 1:59:07.840 here's my next question for you. Okay, what what things. 1:59:07.560 --> 1:59:10.280 Are you that you haven't been able to do besides 1:59:10.360 --> 1:59:13.800 lunar phase work? Like what do you what do you 1:59:13.880 --> 1:59:16.640 want to be doing, Jimmy, Like what do you want 1:59:16.680 --> 1:59:19.160 to be doing next? Like what are the what things 1:59:19.200 --> 1:59:23.360 do you look at? And you're like, uh, I'm inspired 1:59:23.440 --> 1:59:25.240 by it and I think I can see a way 1:59:25.240 --> 1:59:27.520 that we might find some answers, like with this deer 1:59:27.560 --> 1:59:30.120 work in particular, kind of any kind of your work. Yeah, 1:59:30.200 --> 1:59:32.840 you know, I mean like you got to have fifty ideas, right, 1:59:32.880 --> 1:59:34.240 but then in the end you can only do one 1:59:34.280 --> 1:59:35.760 or two at a time or whatever. I don't know 1:59:35.800 --> 1:59:37.560 what the numbers are, Yeah for sure. 1:59:37.640 --> 1:59:38.920 Well, I mean one of the one of the things 1:59:38.920 --> 1:59:41.360 which we talked about a little bit is we really 1:59:41.360 --> 1:59:43.440 need to be able to evaluate the rose pedal hypothesis, 1:59:43.440 --> 1:59:45.800 which I think we've talked maybe a little bit more so. 1:59:46.720 --> 1:59:50.480 The rose pedal hypothesis ties to uh, deer in particular 1:59:50.560 --> 1:59:54.240 about how they occupy space on a landscape, and the 1:59:54.360 --> 1:59:57.360 reference to a rose is that you have a matriarchal 1:59:57.400 --> 2:00:00.480 female that forms maybe the central pedal on the rose, 2:00:00.520 --> 2:00:02.560 and then you have her daughters that set up shop 2:00:02.600 --> 2:00:04.800 around her, and then her granddaughters, and so what you 2:00:04.880 --> 2:00:08.320 end up with is this natural lineal line of related 2:00:08.360 --> 2:00:11.680 females that occupy space on the landscape. They've evaluated this 2:00:11.720 --> 2:00:14.960 in white tail deer. It's where the idea came from initially. 2:00:15.720 --> 2:00:20.160 So for white tail deer, it's been used to implement 2:00:20.200 --> 2:00:24.840 management practices to reduce agricultural depredation related issues. So we're 2:00:24.880 --> 2:00:26.760 deer getting into crops and that sort of thing. And 2:00:26.800 --> 2:00:31.240 the idea is that just reducing removing a handful of 2:00:31.240 --> 2:00:33.760 deer from the area won't alleviate the problem because you 2:00:33.800 --> 2:00:35.840 still have other females that are living there, and then 2:00:35.880 --> 2:00:38.200 their daughters and granddaughters are just going to repopulate it. 2:00:38.200 --> 2:00:40.000 So the notion is, if you want no deer there, 2:00:40.480 --> 2:00:42.760 you need to wipe out the entire rows and then 2:00:42.800 --> 2:00:45.040 you'll create vacant space and there won't be any deer 2:00:45.040 --> 2:00:47.600 there and your problem will go away. Well, so as 2:00:47.640 --> 2:00:51.680 I've thought about one, migration, you know, migration is central 2:00:51.800 --> 2:00:56.400 to our ability to maintain larger bus populations. And then 2:00:56.560 --> 2:00:59.680 like as adult deer are incredibly faithful to their environment 2:01:00.080 --> 2:01:01.520 or does it come from anyway, And so we talked 2:01:01.560 --> 2:01:04.400 about ontouching migration, but then taking that one step further, 2:01:05.120 --> 2:01:07.960 what does that mean for how females occupy space on 2:01:08.000 --> 2:01:10.760 a landscape in particular their natal range, Like, do they 2:01:10.880 --> 2:01:15.640 even though they're they're migratory, do they similarly adopt space 2:01:15.680 --> 2:01:17.880 for mom on their summer range? So do we end 2:01:17.960 --> 2:01:21.840 up with these then matrilineal lines of occupied space on 2:01:22.640 --> 2:01:24.880 a summer range? And that's what determines why we have 2:01:25.000 --> 2:01:28.680 animals where we do. And that again, which we we 2:01:28.760 --> 2:01:31.120 kind of alluded to a bit, but that's central to 2:01:31.520 --> 2:01:34.640 our ability to maintain an abundance of deer because if 2:01:34.680 --> 2:01:37.880 we lose roses, we create vacant space and. 2:01:37.920 --> 2:01:40.760 There they're not there anymore. And we need we need like. 2:01:40.720 --> 2:01:43.800 A firm answer of that to understand what that means 2:01:43.840 --> 2:01:47.160 across generational time to one both be able to look 2:01:47.200 --> 2:01:49.800 forward to what it can mean for management conservation now, 2:01:49.840 --> 2:01:51.160 but also I think. 2:01:50.960 --> 2:01:53.440 What's equally as of value is to be able. 2:01:53.280 --> 2:01:55.800 To look backwards in time to what it means means 2:01:55.880 --> 2:01:57.560 for us in the past from what we've seen how 2:01:57.560 --> 2:01:59.680 the landscape has changed and what we see today and 2:02:00.440 --> 2:02:03.600 relevant to even just the Wyoming range. When we lose 2:02:03.600 --> 2:02:07.800 seventy percent of our deer population, we inevitably lost roses 2:02:07.840 --> 2:02:09.960 on the landscape. I mean we had family groups of 2:02:09.960 --> 2:02:12.160 our radio marke deer that were just completely wiped out. 2:02:12.240 --> 2:02:15.320 So at that level of loss, like it inevitably happened. 2:02:15.320 --> 2:02:17.840 So what does that mean for that vacant space over time? 2:02:17.880 --> 2:02:20.040 And if you like when you when you're somewhere when 2:02:20.080 --> 2:02:22.400 you're glassing, and you like hunt same place over a 2:02:22.440 --> 2:02:24.400 few years and you're like, there's always like a little 2:02:24.400 --> 2:02:28.480 pocket of activity yep in whatever, a little spot yep, 2:02:28.560 --> 2:02:32.440 you could just yep, gone gone. Why aren't they there anymore? 2:02:32.480 --> 2:02:33.280 What happened? You know? 2:02:33.360 --> 2:02:35.520 Did they get pushed out of there? Well no, necessarily, 2:02:35.560 --> 2:02:36.840 they probably just all died, And so. 2:02:37.240 --> 2:02:39.600 No one's got no one's backfield, that's right. 2:02:39.640 --> 2:02:41.520 And so what that could mean, you know, we've had 2:02:41.680 --> 2:02:43.200 we've had a number of which there's a lot of 2:02:43.240 --> 2:02:45.040 challenges that mild your face. But if you think this 2:02:45.120 --> 2:02:48.760 applies to basically like any population of ungulate, if if 2:02:48.880 --> 2:02:52.960 animals are not using space, then a population may grow 2:02:53.000 --> 2:02:55.120 back up but reach a new abundance where they don't 2:02:55.120 --> 2:02:58.360 grow anymore, because if they're not using all that other 2:02:58.440 --> 2:03:01.400 forage and space on the landscape, it's not functionally part 2:03:01.400 --> 2:03:04.000 of their caring capacity. It's like they it's like having 2:03:04.040 --> 2:03:06.600 a pasture, running cattle on a pasture. And you have 2:03:06.640 --> 2:03:09.000 a thousand acre pasture and you split it down the 2:03:09.000 --> 2:03:11.720 middle with a fence and you run cattle on the 2:03:11.760 --> 2:03:13.600 southern half of it. Are you going to run the 2:03:13.680 --> 2:03:16.120 number of cattle that you have for the thousand acre pasture? 2:03:16.440 --> 2:03:17.800 Are you going to run the number of cattle that 2:03:17.840 --> 2:03:19.560 you have for the five hundred acres that they have 2:03:19.640 --> 2:03:21.240 access to? And you're going to run it on the 2:03:21.240 --> 2:03:24.120 five hundred acres not the thousand. And so when it 2:03:24.160 --> 2:03:27.480 comes to even as we think about, you know, nutrition 2:03:27.680 --> 2:03:30.760 density within any population, and you know, I hear this 2:03:30.840 --> 2:03:33.080 a lot like, man, how could nutrition be limiting on 2:03:33.080 --> 2:03:33.680 summer range? 2:03:33.760 --> 2:03:34.880 Look at these mountains. 2:03:34.920 --> 2:03:39.800 There's some food everywhere. There's no way that that could matter. Again, 2:03:39.920 --> 2:03:42.560 you like, you have to remember what it means for 2:03:42.680 --> 2:03:45.040 the animals themselves and the spaces that they live and 2:03:45.120 --> 2:03:47.760 occupy on that landscape, because they just don't go willy 2:03:47.840 --> 2:03:50.560 nilly wander around unless you're an elk and. 2:03:51.000 --> 2:03:53.720 Just access all of all of those foods. 2:03:54.000 --> 2:03:58.040 So you're talking about I mean basically habitat loss, like 2:03:58.080 --> 2:04:01.360 you were losing meal to your habitat, even though the 2:04:01.360 --> 2:04:02.440 habitat looks the same. 2:04:02.560 --> 2:04:04.800 Yeah, it's exactly right. Yeah, it's way a good way 2:04:04.800 --> 2:04:07.280 of putting it. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. You think 2:04:07.320 --> 2:04:11.080 about like spots, You're like, why are they not here? Yeah? Yeah, 2:04:11.320 --> 2:04:12.880 and when are they going to come back? Man? You 2:04:12.920 --> 2:04:17.880 know where maybe you're already doing work here, you know where. 2:04:17.880 --> 2:04:24.680 I feel like there's so much personal bias applied to 2:04:26.200 --> 2:04:33.520 any conversation around ungilate density and predation. Right, you got 2:04:33.520 --> 2:04:37.120 people who the first thing they want to do anytime 2:04:37.160 --> 2:04:39.000 there's no deer around, they want to tell you about 2:04:39.040 --> 2:04:41.720 the predators. You got people who basically want to tell 2:04:41.760 --> 2:04:45.840 you that predators egrass makes no difference. 2:04:45.920 --> 2:04:46.000 Right. 2:04:46.080 --> 2:04:49.880 You got these two camps. They're generally not talking about 2:04:50.520 --> 2:04:52.680 what they regard to be the truth. They're talking about 2:04:52.720 --> 2:04:55.920 what they wish was the truth, or how they've been 2:04:55.960 --> 2:04:58.480 brought up or trained. Right, the two these two wildly 2:04:58.840 --> 2:05:05.960 different perspectives. Do you have, Like are you do you 2:05:06.040 --> 2:05:11.360 consider are there ways to be to maybe freshen up 2:05:11.400 --> 2:05:16.200 that conversation about what is going on? Yeah, what do Kyle, like, 2:05:16.240 --> 2:05:19.120 what do coyote numbers mean for deer populations over time? 2:05:19.160 --> 2:05:21.960 What do coyote numbers mean for distribution? Yeah? Right? Do 2:05:22.000 --> 2:05:24.000 you wait on this? Yeah? 2:05:24.160 --> 2:05:28.840 Yeah, So I actually sent some of my initial predator 2:05:29.320 --> 2:05:32.760 related work with as it translates to on your population 2:05:32.960 --> 2:05:35.520 was actually some of the work I did on meal 2:05:35.600 --> 2:05:37.200 deer in the Sierra Nevada and California. 2:05:38.560 --> 2:05:40.520 And then I read that work, did you Yeah? 2:05:40.680 --> 2:05:44.880 I didn't know as you Oh yeah, really, I did 2:05:44.920 --> 2:05:47.280 a whole bunch of work on nutrition predation on deer 2:05:47.320 --> 2:05:48.360 in the eastern Sierra. 2:05:48.480 --> 2:05:50.560 Oh you're you know what, you know what? You're right, 2:05:50.600 --> 2:05:52.840 because you're even not not. I mean, you know you're right. 2:05:53.840 --> 2:05:56.880 But I think I saw you now that you're saying this. 2:05:57.280 --> 2:06:01.040 I saw you cited. Your work is cited in the 2:06:01.040 --> 2:06:05.200 bear California's bear Management proposal. You're here in Nevada, works 2:06:05.200 --> 2:06:07.760 outside of there is I just read that and left 2:06:07.800 --> 2:06:10.800 my mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I saw your name there. Yeah. 2:06:10.840 --> 2:06:13.560 So, and then of course we've done a number of 2:06:14.000 --> 2:06:17.200 good bit of predation related work in Wyoming as well. 2:06:17.440 --> 2:06:20.800 The to sort of like, look at a big picture 2:06:20.840 --> 2:06:24.200 relative to the two camps that that you reference. 2:06:26.480 --> 2:06:32.280 In which camp is right. Well, here's the thing. The 2:06:32.320 --> 2:06:36.360 problem is neither camp is right. I had a suspicions, yeah, 2:06:35.560 --> 2:06:37.680 and anybody. 2:06:37.520 --> 2:06:41.480 The problem is is the moment anybody wants to say 2:06:42.280 --> 2:06:49.080 predators don't matter because all mortality is compensatory, or predators matter. Basically, 2:06:49.160 --> 2:06:51.720 if a canine is on the landscape and it's killing 2:06:51.720 --> 2:06:54.040 a deer, if that canine wasn't there, we'd have the 2:06:54.080 --> 2:06:58.800 deer back. Both of those camps are wrong. The fact 2:06:58.800 --> 2:07:03.080 that there's even camps is wrong, and it's wrong in 2:07:03.160 --> 2:07:05.120 part because of the way the way in which we 2:07:05.200 --> 2:07:07.360 think about it, and and part of the challenge has 2:07:07.360 --> 2:07:10.760 been like how do we understand what predation means within populations? 2:07:10.840 --> 2:07:15.640 And where we have to go back to, regardless first 2:07:16.600 --> 2:07:22.000 is is where what makes what makes a population and 2:07:22.040 --> 2:07:25.080 it and what makes a population is everything we've talked about, 2:07:25.520 --> 2:07:27.880 and it's food and access to the landscape. And so 2:07:28.200 --> 2:07:32.000 the bottom line is unless animals have access to the 2:07:32.040 --> 2:07:35.400 food in their basic requirements food, water, cover than it 2:07:35.600 --> 2:07:38.000 than it doesn't matter. And so for example, if we're 2:07:38.040 --> 2:07:42.200 if we're in a place where animals are at the 2:07:42.240 --> 2:07:45.920 capacity of their landscape no matter what. Basically, any any 2:07:45.960 --> 2:07:47.920 younger of the population is going to attempt to grow 2:07:48.000 --> 2:07:50.400 more young each year than they can actually sustain within 2:07:50.440 --> 2:07:52.480 the population typically, and so what that means is a 2:07:52.560 --> 2:07:57.600 number need to die and hence compensatory and if we're 2:07:57.760 --> 2:08:02.640 at that point, one dies and alleviates some level of 2:08:02.680 --> 2:08:05.400 competition for the others that remain, and so we end 2:08:05.480 --> 2:08:06.440 up with this feedback. 2:08:07.840 --> 2:08:08.640 So that's real. 2:08:10.280 --> 2:08:14.160 And also we can have this situation where predators can 2:08:14.240 --> 2:08:17.520 play a role, as in, we have the capacity to 2:08:17.640 --> 2:08:20.680 grow more animals based on the food that is here, 2:08:20.960 --> 2:08:25.400 but predators are keeping it from growing. So we first 2:08:25.440 --> 2:08:28.000 have to consider food and we can quibble and argue, oh, 2:08:28.040 --> 2:08:31.400 this level of coyote population, this level of lion population, 2:08:32.000 --> 2:08:33.720 whatever the case may be. At the end of the day, 2:08:33.760 --> 2:08:36.040 you can't interpret anything from that. It actually doesn't mean 2:08:36.120 --> 2:08:38.880 anything because even for those predators, like they may have 2:08:38.920 --> 2:08:42.840 alternative prey that's available to them. Where it matters how 2:08:42.880 --> 2:08:46.480 we understand how predators affect a prey population is actually 2:08:46.480 --> 2:08:49.600 to understand the prey population and the nutrition and capacity 2:08:49.600 --> 2:08:52.879 they have to grow before we can actually interpret it. 2:08:52.600 --> 2:08:56.000 What the predators matter or mean at all. And the 2:08:56.040 --> 2:09:00.120 other reason why I say both camps are wrong or 2:09:00.200 --> 2:09:02.760 that the very notion, like the moment you hear somebody 2:09:03.640 --> 2:09:06.720 toss something into the camp, you already know they're wrong. 2:09:06.920 --> 2:09:10.880 And it's because we can be in a situation in 2:09:10.960 --> 2:09:15.000 one single population and during one period of time predators 2:09:15.040 --> 2:09:18.440 are limiting growth, and during another period of time they 2:09:18.480 --> 2:09:21.560 don't matter at all because they're so nutritionally limited that 2:09:21.640 --> 2:09:24.480 they make no difference. And so you have yes here 2:09:24.600 --> 2:09:27.919 and you have no over here. Yeah, and then imagine 2:09:27.920 --> 2:09:30.240 the whole gradient in between. And I've worked in two 2:09:30.360 --> 2:09:34.200 systems now as an example, in the Sierras in the 2:09:34.240 --> 2:09:38.840 Eastern Sierra, where predation mattered for one migratory segment didn't 2:09:38.880 --> 2:09:41.960 matter at all for the other. And then also looking 2:09:42.000 --> 2:09:43.960 at it from a time period of there was a 2:09:44.040 --> 2:09:47.040 window of time where predation mattered and then a window 2:09:47.040 --> 2:09:48.920 of time where it didn't matter at all. And I've 2:09:48.920 --> 2:09:51.360 seen we've seen the same thing in Wyoming as well, 2:09:51.520 --> 2:09:54.560 same picture within the Wyoming range. Prior to the bad winners, 2:09:55.440 --> 2:09:58.560 predators really didn't matter because we didn't have the nutritional 2:09:58.600 --> 2:10:01.120 capacity to grow more deer in anyway we were there, 2:10:01.400 --> 2:10:03.680 so losing some of the predators really was going to 2:10:03.680 --> 2:10:06.120 be a washing didn't matter. Now that we've dropped to 2:10:06.200 --> 2:10:10.000 the level that we have now and our females are fat, robust, 2:10:10.120 --> 2:10:13.280 we have the capacity to grow. Now we're in a 2:10:13.360 --> 2:10:16.520 different situation where predators can have a limiting factor and 2:10:16.600 --> 2:10:19.880 reduce the ability for the population to grow. But then still, 2:10:19.920 --> 2:10:21.080 at the end of the day, well, what does that 2:10:21.200 --> 2:10:24.280 mean for us? Should we control predators? Should we have 2:10:24.360 --> 2:10:27.880 controlled predators over here? Should we not? Like it's the 2:10:27.960 --> 2:10:29.959 sort of like. It all depends what are the objectives. 2:10:30.040 --> 2:10:32.120 Just because your remove predators from a system doesn't mean 2:10:32.120 --> 2:10:34.960 you're going to get more more dear pack, Yeah. 2:10:35.200 --> 2:10:36.920 Dude, you should be the only guest we ever have 2:10:37.080 --> 2:10:41.200 on you'd get so bored. No, it's be a weekly 2:10:41.280 --> 2:10:46.560 show where I ask you questions. I like it. I 2:10:46.760 --> 2:10:48.640 like it because we're never going to get through it all. 2:10:48.760 --> 2:10:51.080 We got to wrap up, Randall, got to do this 2:10:51.120 --> 2:10:52.160 whole stupid thing we're doing. 2:10:54.120 --> 2:10:54.840 It's the audio. 2:10:55.680 --> 2:11:00.360 We haven't even talked about. Kevin's fascinating other interests tax 2:11:00.440 --> 2:11:01.880 dermist hunter. 2:11:03.120 --> 2:11:08.080 Maybe maybe we should there layers, I know, let's not 2:11:08.200 --> 2:11:09.760 wait five seven years again. 2:11:10.080 --> 2:11:11.640 I don't know how whenever it was we did, we 2:11:11.720 --> 2:11:13.800 got to schedule the next round because we got to 2:11:13.800 --> 2:11:16.840 wrap up. Dude, it's really like, you guys are doing 2:11:17.000 --> 2:11:20.760 super cool work. I wasn't trying to hack on fishing 2:11:20.800 --> 2:11:23.120 game agencies, man, I was just trying to express this. 2:11:23.240 --> 2:11:25.720 I was trying to express this, like like I just 2:11:25.760 --> 2:11:28.000 hope there's not a lot of bottlenecks and and and 2:11:28.360 --> 2:11:35.080 inefficiencies and and and like being able to take the 2:11:35.160 --> 2:11:38.680 research you're doing, and and and being able to go 2:11:38.800 --> 2:11:42.320 and say like I can't tell you anything, but there's 2:11:42.360 --> 2:11:46.520 a I'm it really looks like this is going on. 2:11:46.960 --> 2:11:52.320 Are we considering this? I mean like, like, is the flow? No? 2:11:52.440 --> 2:11:55.000 I get this is the flow? Good? And I'm only 2:11:55.080 --> 2:11:58.880 saying that because, like you know, I've spent my whole 2:11:58.960 --> 2:12:03.640 life talking about wildlife, right, thinking about wildlife, talking about wildlife. 2:12:03.680 --> 2:12:05.760 I hang out with peopleho are obsessed with wildlife, and 2:12:05.960 --> 2:12:11.000 we routinely traffic and stuff that just isn't backed up, 2:12:11.600 --> 2:12:13.760 and we say it like fact absolutely, and the guys 2:12:13.800 --> 2:12:18.080 that are doing management are the are my guys are peers. 2:12:18.680 --> 2:12:24.680 It's like people are operating under assumptions that like aren't 2:12:24.720 --> 2:12:26.640 as accurate, you know, and sort of looking at like 2:12:27.120 --> 2:12:29.000 like looking at lower deer numbers and we're like, wow, 2:12:29.040 --> 2:12:31.160 the reason it's that way is because of whatever. And 2:12:31.240 --> 2:12:33.200 then you go look at the man, dude, it's just 2:12:33.320 --> 2:12:37.240 a different There's there's more to what's going on. It's 2:12:37.280 --> 2:12:40.960 a longer story. It's not like you can't just everything 2:12:41.040 --> 2:12:44.200 isn't just looking at what just happened. Correct, Absolutely, you 2:12:44.320 --> 2:12:47.640 know you got you gotta dig back. Oftentimes you got 2:12:47.680 --> 2:12:50.440 to dig back right now and so and trying to 2:12:50.480 --> 2:12:53.920 correct a situation, you might be correcting the wrong inputs. Yes, 2:12:54.160 --> 2:12:56.360 oh absolutely, right, yep, for sure. 2:12:56.560 --> 2:12:58.480 And and I think the other the other side of 2:12:58.560 --> 2:13:01.480 that as well is you know a number of things 2:13:01.480 --> 2:13:03.440 that we talked about, some of the things we can't 2:13:03.480 --> 2:13:06.560 necessarily change. We can't necessarily change the weather and those 2:13:06.600 --> 2:13:08.880 sorts of things, but which I think can become a 2:13:08.960 --> 2:13:12.000 bit dissatisfying sometimes when like pre sip or snowpack or 2:13:12.040 --> 2:13:15.160 those sorts of things are such play such a driving role. 2:13:15.240 --> 2:13:18.160 We can manage density and other things like that to 2:13:18.240 --> 2:13:21.160 help moderate those things. But I also think what's really 2:13:21.200 --> 2:13:25.840 important is our ability to simply manage our expectations as well, 2:13:26.320 --> 2:13:29.160 what does it mean for us? Which is kind of dissatisfying, 2:13:29.400 --> 2:13:31.400 right when you can't say we'll do this because I 2:13:31.480 --> 2:13:34.720 want this. Well, maybe we can't get that, but here's 2:13:34.720 --> 2:13:36.520 the reasons why, and we need you to understand that 2:13:36.640 --> 2:13:38.400 so we can all be we can all be at 2:13:38.440 --> 2:13:40.720 the same table with the same information, be like, Okay, 2:13:40.760 --> 2:13:42.880 here's what we're wrestling with. What is this going to 2:13:42.920 --> 2:13:45.920 mean for us going forward with whatever the situation may 2:13:46.080 --> 2:13:48.720 may be, from how we use habitat to our presence 2:13:48.760 --> 2:13:51.880 on the landscape, to how we manage hunting seasons. 2:13:52.640 --> 2:13:58.680 Yeah, yeah, love it. M Now you got to come 2:13:58.760 --> 2:14:03.720 back on happily. No, you're not too terribly far away. Now, 2:14:03.920 --> 2:14:06.520 last time we went to you, remember you did you did? 2:14:06.640 --> 2:14:09.080 We have to hang out for a bit. Yeah, yeah, 2:14:09.360 --> 2:14:18.560 it's great. Hmmm, we gotta go a little. Me and 2:14:18.640 --> 2:14:22.200 Randall's thing is actually kind of interesting. I don't want 2:14:22.240 --> 2:14:27.400 to talk bad about it. I just it's very similar 2:14:27.400 --> 2:14:30.000 in a way, trying to find out what happened, what happened? 2:14:30.040 --> 2:14:31.520 What did happen? I know, I feel like you were 2:14:31.680 --> 2:14:32.320 very into it. 2:14:32.640 --> 2:14:34.680 I feel like you were very into that project up 2:14:34.760 --> 2:14:37.840 until this morning and now that it's dimmed, you know 2:14:38.240 --> 2:14:38.720 it's dimmed. 2:14:38.840 --> 2:14:42.600 We're doing very similar work. Yeah, I like it. We're 2:14:42.640 --> 2:14:44.840 looking at wow, yeah, like what did happen all the 2:14:44.880 --> 2:14:48.600 buffalo nice? And why? And what little micro things might 2:14:48.640 --> 2:14:50.320 have been different that would have led to a different outcome. 2:14:50.400 --> 2:14:52.320 We toy with all this mm hmm. 2:14:53.120 --> 2:14:56.720 We toy with all this, good man, And but we 2:14:56.800 --> 2:14:58.000 don't have the data that you have. 2:14:58.920 --> 2:15:01.480 It's just differ kind of work. Yeah, and we dispel, 2:15:01.640 --> 2:15:04.760 we dispel things. So yeah, it's important to be like, well, 2:15:04.800 --> 2:15:09.680 what happened was this? Oh yeah kind of but also 2:15:09.800 --> 2:15:13.600 this nice you know, I look forward to that. Bison 2:15:13.640 --> 2:15:16.000 are fascinating. Yeah, I think you'll. I think you'll dig it. 2:15:16.120 --> 2:15:19.400 It's got all the all the normal gross stuff that 2:15:19.440 --> 2:15:21.720 we like to put in there too. Of course I 2:15:21.720 --> 2:15:23.800 would anticipate nothing. Yes, we like it to be that 2:15:23.840 --> 2:15:25.600 you get kind of grossed out, but also you learn 2:15:25.640 --> 2:15:31.400 something you have to have that flare wouldn't come from you. Yeah, 2:15:31.400 --> 2:15:33.320 you gotta have that that cade and something you being 2:15:33.400 --> 2:15:38.400 like oh, then you're like, oh, can we clip that 2:15:38.560 --> 2:15:45.600 person sounding back? Splice that in, yeah, back and forth. 2:15:45.760 --> 2:15:57.680 All right, thank you for coming on the monteeth shop, 2:15:58.320 --> 2:16:04.240 University of Wyoming. Send your resumes. You're looking for resumes 2:16:04.320 --> 2:16:08.760 right now? Oh man, you drowning the resumes. Yeah, don't 2:16:08.800 --> 2:16:11.600 send your resu I'm always looking for supporters, if anybody's interested. 2:16:11.640 --> 2:16:14.160 If you're looking to support something great, and I think 2:16:14.200 --> 2:16:16.680 it was demonstrated here today. If you're looking to support 2:16:17.280 --> 2:16:22.080 if you love wildlife, if you love the West, if 2:16:22.120 --> 2:16:25.520 you love wildlife, if you love these like majestic landscapes, 2:16:25.640 --> 2:16:30.760 and you really want to put your money, your conservation 2:16:31.000 --> 2:16:37.200 dollars to knowledge, this is a great place to put them. 2:16:37.400 --> 2:16:42.040 If you want to drive knowledge. It's not lobbying, which 2:16:42.120 --> 2:16:46.840 is important. It's not like on the ground, on the 2:16:46.920 --> 2:16:51.520 ground habitat improvement, rolling up old fences, getting rid of junipers, 2:16:51.720 --> 2:16:55.120 which is important. It's not that. If you want to 2:16:55.280 --> 2:16:59.960 contribute to acquisition of knowledge that can then be extended 2:17:00.120 --> 2:17:04.560 out into management. Uh, I say the Montieth lab is 2:17:04.600 --> 2:17:09.320 money well spent shop. What was that shop? Oh? What? 2:17:09.480 --> 2:17:11.080 I just call it lab? Well that's what they ought 2:17:11.120 --> 2:17:15.039 to call it. Yeah, you think about it. I think 2:17:15.080 --> 2:17:18.959 that's where we started. More I think about it, it. 2:17:18.959 --> 2:17:21.120 Doesn't bode well for a recording session later. 2:17:23.360 --> 2:17:27.120 The Montee Shop damn it. Thank you, Kevin my pleasure. 2:17:27.200 --> 2:17:27.880 Thank you for having me.