Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Diamonds in the
Speaker 1: Rough with Me and Erica, and we are bringing on
Speaker 1: Doctor Nadine aka Doctor Nay.
Speaker 2: She is known to her patients as Doctor Nay. She
Speaker 2: is the real life inspiration behind Naomi Belford's character in
Speaker 2: The Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, I think we
Speaker 2: all watched that movie with Margot Robbie and Leonardo DiCaprio,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't just a movie, it was actually really
Speaker 2: She survived a turbulent eight year marriage to Jordan Belfort,
Speaker 2: marked by abuse, greed, and trauma. Following her experiences, Doctor Macuso,
Speaker 2: which is Doctor Nadine, relocated to California. Her journey of
Speaker 2: trauma and healing inspired her to return to school at
Speaker 2: the age of thirty nine, where she earned her Masters
Speaker 2: in Counseling and a PhD and somatic psychotherapy. She further
Speaker 2: specialized with a two year postdoctoral training in the neuro
Speaker 2: effective relational model. She also has a book Run Like Hell,
Speaker 2: A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma bonds.
Speaker 2: At age twenty two, she married Jordan the Nefario stockbroker
Speaker 2: portrayed in the Hollywood blockbuster the Wolf of Wall Street.
Speaker 2: The marriage began as a fairy tale, but once they
Speaker 2: were bonded, Jordan's mask began to slip, and acts of infidelity,
Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse, and insatiable greed and uncontrollable drug addiction became
Speaker 2: Nadine's nightmare. She's here, so I feel like she could
Speaker 2: give us more information than I can read off of
Speaker 2: her bio.
Speaker 3: So let's talk.
Speaker 4: Let's talk. Hey guys, Hi, how are you?
Speaker 5: Oh good, how are you doing?
Speaker 2: We're doing okay, but we would love to hear just
Speaker 2: a little bit of like your backstory, and then we'll
Speaker 2: start asking questions and doing that kind of stuff, if
Speaker 2: that works for.
Speaker 5: You, sures sure. So, well, you know who I was
Speaker 5: married to?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and hold on.
Speaker 4: He's a motivational speaker now, correct.
Speaker 5: Isn't that amazing? Yeah?
Speaker 2: He is.
Speaker 5: And so you know, I met him when I was
Speaker 5: twenty two. I was so young and clueless, and this
Speaker 5: was thirty years ago before and we was talking about
Speaker 5: narcissism or trauma bonds or anything like that, right, And
Speaker 5: so then I left him about eight years later and
Speaker 5: restarted my life in la. I've lived in Manhattan Beach
Speaker 5: for twenty four years. So my heart is broken for
Speaker 5: Los Angeles right now. And I went back to school
Speaker 5: at thirty nine, got my master's, got my doctorate. And
Speaker 5: what was happening in my practice was I saw all
Speaker 5: these smart, kind, beautiful women coming in being betrayed, having
Speaker 5: financial abuse, being lied to, being coercively controlled. And I
Speaker 5: was like, we have a problem. And I went back
Speaker 5: to the research and wrote my book and now it's
Speaker 5: my specialty.
Speaker 6: For any of us that's our listening, Could you explain
Speaker 6: what a trauma bond is? Yeah, I think people look,
Speaker 6: I think they have an idea, but from an experts you.
Speaker 5: Know, yeah, sure, sure, So a trauma bond is a toxic,
Speaker 5: dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. There are a
Speaker 5: few things that make it different. One of the things
Speaker 5: is that the pathological person or perpetrator wants power and
Speaker 5: control over their partner. That is their main mission while
Speaker 5: they are so much whatever they call in love with
Speaker 5: this person. Right, But it has to have two conditions
Speaker 5: for it to be a trauma bond. There has to
Speaker 5: be a powering balance. One person folds the power and
Speaker 5: they exploit the power. Right, they can have it because
Speaker 5: they have more resources.
Speaker 3: See financial power. It could be anything. You think that these.
Speaker 6: Personalities know what they are doing or are they just themselves?
Speaker 5: I think it's both. They are just themselves. They have
Speaker 5: personality disorders, so they think this is just who I am,
Speaker 5: But they totally know what they're doing because they will harm, lie, exploit,
Speaker 5: and betray anyone in everyone to get their needs met
Speaker 5: for money, power, pleasure, and status. Right, and the second
Speaker 5: piece of the trauma bond is the intermit and reinforcement,
Speaker 5: where seventy percent of the time they're cruel, they're controlling,
Speaker 5: they're betraying, their abusive, but that thirty percent they're kind,
Speaker 5: generous and helpful.
Speaker 6: And almost I'm almost like overly kind overly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, overly complimentary, like I'm sure.
Speaker 6: That you got all the presence and all the trips
Speaker 6: and all the shit right right right comfort and made
Speaker 6: you feel loved and made you feel like it's not
Speaker 6: that bad. Okay, he doesn't talk to me for two weeks,
Speaker 6: but I can stick it out right right because.
Speaker 5: I would get into a fight and then there would
Speaker 5: be a horse in my driveway right as about So
Speaker 5: there were these very so what happens is the extremity
Speaker 5: of these two behaviors that they exhibit toward us is
Speaker 5: actually what creates the bonds, because the research shows animal
Speaker 5: trainers who use intermate reinforcement the animals bond to them
Speaker 5: two hundred and thirty percent more than just straight kindness.
Speaker 6: Wow, are these personalities born or are they made?
Speaker 4: I was going to ask, is this learned or is
Speaker 4: this learned?
Speaker 5: It's learned. It's usually learned behavior, or they grow up
Speaker 5: too entitled, or they're overly abused.
Speaker 2: Even though we think that narcissists have these big egos,
Speaker 2: they're actually the most insecure.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Is that accurate?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that can be accurate. And you know, I use
Speaker 5: the term pathological lover because I think they're much more
Speaker 5: than narcissists. They usually have some psychopathy, right, That's why
Speaker 5: sometimes they're criminals. They have sadism, and then they have machiavellianism,
Speaker 5: which means they're highly strategic and manipulative as Erica. You know,
Speaker 5: I'm not telling you, you don't know, I'm just maybe
Speaker 5: giving you names for it, you know.
Speaker 3: Just confirming everything that I've experienced.
Speaker 5: I know, unfortunately they live through.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's okay, I mean, you know, it's also interesting
Speaker 6: to speak to someone who's also basically been through the
Speaker 6: same thing, and it's nice that it really says a
Speaker 6: lot to your character that you took this experience and really,
Speaker 6: you know, went to school and are helping other women.
Speaker 6: But it's it's hard when you're living with someone like
Speaker 6: this because they're not all bad, but they're great, and
Speaker 6: it's they're sort of mercurial in the way that they are,
Speaker 6: and they there and I'm sure your ex husband too,
Speaker 6: was very bright, and that's very bright, and that's how
Speaker 6: they pull the shit off, because if you're a ding dong,
Speaker 6: you cannot piculate all of these systems and all of
Speaker 6: these people to your advantage.
Speaker 5: That's right, that's right. And you know they're you know,
Speaker 5: they're true con artists, right because they wear the mask
Speaker 5: and I call the two masks Romeo and Dirty John
Speaker 5: or Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde. But they can wear
Speaker 5: that mask and have this amazing public image and trick everybody,
Speaker 5: but then behind the scenes, you know, be very manipulative
Speaker 5: and cruel to us, which can make it even more
Speaker 5: confusing because now we are like gaslighting ourselves like it's
Speaker 5: not that bad.
Speaker 6: It's not that bad. I can stick out. It's really okay,
Speaker 6: what's wrong with me? I should be grateful. This is
Speaker 6: better than it could be. You know, it could always
Speaker 6: be worse. Dah da da da. I think that we
Speaker 6: as women, or especially women are are a lot more
Speaker 6: susceptible to this entire thing. And I don't know about
Speaker 6: your ex husband, Jordan, but Tom had some of the
Speaker 6: best social skills I've ever seen in my entire life.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, most of the time, there's always an extreme
Speaker 2: talent involved with this.
Speaker 5: Correct correct? Correct? You know my ex is a grandiose narcissist, right,
Speaker 5: he is the best seller in the world. I mean,
Speaker 5: who does what he did and write a book and
Speaker 5: then get the best people in the world to make
Speaker 5: the book.
Speaker 3: Now, he's a motivational speaker.
Speaker 5: Yea motivational speaker. So yeah, And that's why I wrote
Speaker 5: my book because I really wanted to take the stigma
Speaker 5: away from the victim, because we're constantly asking like, didn't
Speaker 5: she know? Why did she stay? Instead of asking no,
Speaker 5: why does he do that?
Speaker 2: I also want to know, like what it is, because
Speaker 2: you know, I have a history in my life of
Speaker 2: meeting people and thinking that.
Speaker 4: I don't know maybe.
Speaker 2: It's that I'm not enough and that I can make
Speaker 2: them better and that I'm going to create this new life,
Speaker 2: and then that gives me this whole that I'm feeling
Speaker 2: in my heart or whatever it may be. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: what is it that creates us to do that?
Speaker 5: Do we all have deficits? And do we all have
Speaker 5: some form of developmental trauma? And do we all have
Speaker 5: things that we need to fix about ourselves? Of course,
Speaker 5: but that's different than pathology.
Speaker 3: Pathology.
Speaker 6: For anybody that's listening that may may not know, could
Speaker 6: you explain pathology?
Speaker 5: Pathology is someone who's mentally on well because they will
Speaker 5: use harm and exploit anybody and everybody. You know, we
Speaker 5: I went into my relationship with the intention to love
Speaker 5: and connect. That didn't mean I didn't have my imperfections,
Speaker 5: but it's the motive behind the behavior. I didn't go
Speaker 5: in to use exploit, betraying control.
Speaker 6: I'm going to ask you a question you and this
Speaker 6: is just I'm asking from a personal point. So okay,
Speaker 6: looking back, yes, were you ever confused at what you
Speaker 6: were looking at or what you were experiencing? Even post
Speaker 6: even looking back now, like, was I really did I
Speaker 6: miss something?
Speaker 3: Did I experience that why what is not clicking? What
Speaker 3: was true? Really like what was true about my life?
Speaker 5: Yes, that is very common, And there's a symptom that's
Speaker 5: only for from a trauma band usually like cognitive dissionpines.
Speaker 5: It's called which is the mental confusion that you feel
Speaker 5: because you're constantly battling is a good? Is he bad? Am? I?
Speaker 5: Is he crazy? Is a relationship? Good? Is a relationship AAD?
Speaker 5: And so you have three different layers of cognitive dissonance
Speaker 5: about you, him and the relationship that keep you totally
Speaker 5: confused jury And it's one hundred percent symptom after trauma
Speaker 5: badd Yes, it's a part. Yeah, so you have cognitive dissonance,
Speaker 5: loss of self, and complex post traumatic stress disorder afterwards.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: And do you find that it makes people like I
Speaker 2: feel like in general, ever since I've been a child,
Speaker 2: I've had a very hard time being present, Okay, conversation,
Speaker 2: Like if I'm with my kids, that's one thing, but
Speaker 2: kind of any other situation, it's like my guard is
Speaker 2: always like I'm here always, You're.
Speaker 5: Like you're always being like being feeling hypervigilant.
Speaker 4: And yes, and so is that a sign of that?
Speaker 2: And then like, I guess that's one question, and then
Speaker 2: the next question is like, as we're all moving to new.
Speaker 4: Chapters of our life, like what is the difference? There's
Speaker 4: trauma bonded.
Speaker 2: And then a word that we hear a lot in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five is love bombing. I
Speaker 2: don't fully under Yeah, what exactly is that?
Speaker 5: So love bombing is a manipulation tactic, right, So it's
Speaker 5: working for somebody to buy flowers and take you to
Speaker 5: a nice center. But love bombing is intense, and it's
Speaker 5: like constant admiration and adoration and constant texting and where
Speaker 5: are you? And we're soulmates after two weeks? Right, And
Speaker 5: I have a saying if it feels too good to
Speaker 5: be true? And probably.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 6: I remember when like Tom and I were married, he'd
Speaker 6: called me forty times a day.
Speaker 3: There I go normal and when you try for me, right.
Speaker 5: But it's not normal, it's not healthy.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 6: But in the when I tell people this, they're like,
Speaker 6: that's impossible. I was like, No, that was how I lived,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 3: I lived like that.
Speaker 6: For over twenty year, where I could get the most
Speaker 6: charming most loving human being, and then there would be
Speaker 6: this slight, you know, flick of the eye, and it'd
Speaker 6: be completely different, or I mean, or to wash him
Speaker 6: twist in front of someone else, like I've seen so
Speaker 6: many things. But then and I don't know how you felt,
Speaker 6: but I saw him do really generous things for people.
Speaker 6: And I'm thinking, okay, let's talk about my Gabellianism or
Speaker 6: you know, my abilia.
Speaker 3: What you know?
Speaker 6: What is true? What was true? What was this person's
Speaker 6: true true personality? Was any of it real? Why was
Speaker 6: I susceptible to that? Why did I buy into all
Speaker 6: of that? And why did I defend that? And it's
Speaker 6: a very difficult place to be, as you know, And
Speaker 6: when you've never dealt with a personality like this, it
Speaker 6: almost seems impossible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And here's the thing, right, is that if you
Speaker 5: are a trusting person, we just assume everybody's like us.
Speaker 5: We can't even imagine that somebody like this exists until
Speaker 5: we experience it. And again, it's those extreme kind, generous
Speaker 5: mixed with the extreme crazy, controlling, brutal behaviors that cause
Speaker 5: cognitive dissonance, and it keeps you tracked. It's the glue
Speaker 5: cognitive dissonance is the glue, and when you see them nice,
Speaker 5: you get hopeful. What wait, though, that is really who
Speaker 5: they are, and then that's the book.
Speaker 6: It almost even becomes more sweet when you see them like,
Speaker 6: It becomes sweeter and they're nicer, and they're far more
Speaker 6: loving and generous. And it's the unpredictable element of these
Speaker 6: personalities is really what drives or at least drove me
Speaker 6: to be like, what the heck am I dealing with? Right?
Speaker 5: Because it's not a psychle because if it was psycho
Speaker 5: we could predict it. You never know when the behavior's coming.
Speaker 4: So that's narcissists actually love you.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, narcissism runs on a spectrum, right, So
Speaker 5: I think there are some people that have severe rigid
Speaker 5: personality disporters, and they're not going to change, and they're
Speaker 5: not capable of love the way you and I think
Speaker 5: about it, because they can't have empathy, they can't have compassion,
Speaker 5: and love has two qualities, quality of connection and giving
Speaker 5: someone the space to be who they are, and a
Speaker 5: lot of times they can't do that, so often they're
Speaker 5: not capable of loving us the way we need to
Speaker 5: be loved.
Speaker 3: I think that they're own version of love.
Speaker 6: Like I think that they feel to a point, but
Speaker 6: ultimately they're going to put themselves or their business or
Speaker 6: their personal persona on their public persona.
Speaker 5: First, right, And yeah, and we're not objects, right, We're like,
Speaker 5: we're really more like objects to them. And again they
Speaker 5: will use home, exploit and betray us to get their
Speaker 5: needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I
Speaker 5: just don't think that's love.
Speaker 2: Is there a checklist or something equivalent to like the
Speaker 2: signs for somebody to look out for?
Speaker 5: Yes, in my book, I have a pathological lover checklist
Speaker 5: and I have it on my website And here we go.
Speaker 5: If you meet a guy and they're like, my eggs
Speaker 5: is crazy, probably a reason why probably made her crazy?
Speaker 5: Right away, starts to catch them in lies, right, starts
Speaker 5: to be a little disrespectful, belittling you, blames you for everything,
Speaker 5: words not matching actions, lacks of more skills or compassion. Right,
Speaker 5: So I have sexual promiscuity, extreme substance abuse. Right, So
Speaker 5: they all don't have every single thing, but all my
Speaker 5: pathological lover checklists, I've forgot how many items there are.
Speaker 5: If they score over certain amounts, run like cow don't wait,
Speaker 5: because the longer you stay, the more you want to
Speaker 5: invest into the relationship. Then you're like, oh god, I
Speaker 5: got to stay. I invested.
Speaker 6: I want to ask you. We're talking mostly about men,
Speaker 6: but this is also true in women. Yeah, yes, so
Speaker 6: men or you know, anyone that any.
Speaker 5: Any sexual orientation, like any you know, any configuration of
Speaker 5: our relationship. It can happen between Boston employee. It can
Speaker 5: happen between friends, you know, it can happen in different
Speaker 5: types of relationships, especially when there's a hierarchical difference right power.
Speaker 6: And balance, whether it be financial or you know, professional,
Speaker 6: that's usually the opportunity for these personalities to come in
Speaker 6: and get you.
Speaker 3: I mean, not get you, but yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you become pray for them and and a
Speaker 7: lot of times they gain power, Like my ex did
Speaker 7: because he was so threatening and dominating and intimidating.
Speaker 5: I fear him, so did I. Oh, I had severe fear. Yeah.
Speaker 6: And when I tell people that, they just kind of
Speaker 6: look at me like he was an older man, and
Speaker 6: I was like, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 4: They're so even. So I have a question.
Speaker 2: Do you think that somebody that is potentially raised by
Speaker 2: a narcissist is more prone to then want to be
Speaker 2: married to one.
Speaker 5: You can be more prone because you had, you know,
Speaker 5: a lacking for a father that wasn't there, or you
Speaker 5: grew up with some developmental trauma. But in my book,
Speaker 5: and this is what the research shows, there's a great
Speaker 5: book called Women Who Love Psychopaths where I got a
Speaker 5: lot of my research from, and I know it's a
Speaker 5: great title. And what the research showed is that women
Speaker 5: that score very high in certain personality traits and again
Speaker 5: anybody could take it on my website, such as agreeableness
Speaker 5: or conscientiousness means they're loyal, intolerance and pro social, or
Speaker 5: very determined and disciplined, they are actually perfect prey for
Speaker 5: these men. And I score very high in both because
Speaker 5: those qualities that are good. But women comes to me
Speaker 5: and she's like, I'm organized and I'm loving. I'm not
Speaker 5: going to say, oh, we're going to therapize that out
Speaker 5: of you. They get weaponized by this personality. They take
Speaker 5: advantage of it. So it's not just that dysfunctional women.
Speaker 5: You know, of course, yes there is there a reenactment
Speaker 5: of relational trauma. Yes, but anyone in everyone in full
Speaker 5: prey to these people.
Speaker 3: How long did it take you to recover? Oh? How
Speaker 3: about this? Or have you?
Speaker 4: And did you find another person like him right after?
Speaker 5: That's what I know. I dated a lot, I had
Speaker 5: a lot of fun, and then I'm married for twenty
Speaker 5: three years with my husband twenty five years. It took me,
Speaker 5: I would say, a few years, and I've been in
Speaker 5: a lot of therapy.
Speaker 2: And what was the final straw?
Speaker 5: Oh for me, Well, he kicked me down the stairs
Speaker 5: when I told him I wanted him to get sober,
Speaker 5: and so that was beyond scary. And the second straw
Speaker 5: was when I told him how when he did get sober,
Speaker 5: how hard it all was. He was like, it wasn't
Speaker 5: that bad. And that lack of remorse put me over
Speaker 5: the edge. And then once he got arrested and got
Speaker 5: an ankle wrestlet, I knew I was safe because he
Speaker 5: had lost all his power. The power and balance shifted. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's like bye bye. So I had three last straws.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you guys co parent, right, you have kids?
Speaker 3: Yes? We do?
Speaker 5: We do? We do?
Speaker 2: And how does that work?
Speaker 5: It works great? Because the power and balance shifted, So
Speaker 5: I kind of got lucky. I always say that he
Speaker 5: got arrested in a strange way. But my kids are great.
Speaker 5: My daughter's a therapist, my son's a businessman. Like they're
Speaker 5: doing great.
Speaker 6: I'm happy to hear that. I'm happy to hear that,
Speaker 6: you you know, are stay happy. Children are wonderful. We
Speaker 6: came out the other side. But you know, we did
Speaker 6: a lot of work.
Speaker 5: We processed.
Speaker 6: We didn't pretend, you know, having to go through something
Speaker 6: like this which is super public, and having people weigh
Speaker 6: in not really understanding, uh, you know, where I was
Speaker 6: coming from or what I was experiencing.
Speaker 3: And everything sort of filling in the blanks.
Speaker 6: It's very difficult because it oftentimes takes a toll on
Speaker 6: what am I really going through?
Speaker 3: What am I seeing? Like how how do I.
Speaker 6: Sift through this this entire blur of a life and
Speaker 6: really get down to how do I heal and how
Speaker 6: do I pull myself together?
Speaker 3: Because that was the ultimate goal, Like I can roll them.
Speaker 5: Okay, you could have control Tom. Oh my god, I
Speaker 5: just got in control. I mean please, I was.
Speaker 6: As good as Jordan, okay, right, Like you weren't controlling
Speaker 6: Tom and you were not responsible for his behavior. No,
Speaker 6: and I and I and I know that, but knowing
Speaker 6: that and feeling that are two completely different things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like and feeling that from the.
Speaker 6: Inside out and saying, you know what, Erica, these things
Speaker 6: happened to you. There was some beautiful experiences, there were
Speaker 6: some bad experiences, but ultimately that's over and he's gone
Speaker 6: and you know whatever. But now I have to pull
Speaker 6: myself together and move forward. And that, I think is
Speaker 6: like it's the sweetest thing, but it's also the hardest
Speaker 6: thing because you're totally it's almost like a you have
Speaker 6: to look back and say what was true about that
Speaker 6: life and who and what is this?
Speaker 3: It can be very heavy.
Speaker 5: Well, it is very heavy. It is very heavy. I
Speaker 5: mean that's the whole last section my book all about
Speaker 5: healing because the research shows though victims of this sort
Speaker 5: of abuse, seventy five percent of them go on to
Speaker 5: experience post traumatic growth if they do the work. So
Speaker 5: you're going to be in that group. You're going to
Speaker 5: experience post traumatic growth because you're putting in the work
Speaker 5: and it is possible, but yeah, it takes a lot
Speaker 5: of work.
Speaker 4: But I also have another question, like there's.
Speaker 2: Like we went to like, you know, this whole couple's
Speaker 2: therapy thing, and it announced me as an introvert, and
Speaker 2: like it was shocking information for everybody, even though I've
Speaker 2: been saying this my entire life. I'm like, no, Like,
Speaker 2: if I'm being paid to show up and do it,
Speaker 2: I can do it. But like I'm naturally an introvert,
Speaker 2: so I enjoy my alone time. I need to like
Speaker 2: recharge all of these things. But there's moments that I'm
Speaker 2: feeling now where I feel really low and I don't
Speaker 2: know if those loneliness feelings mean that I've made a
Speaker 2: mistake or like this is just something I have to
Speaker 2: get used to and this is like the new change
Speaker 2: in my life and oh my god, I'm so embarrassing
Speaker 2: and getting emotional.
Speaker 5: But like.
Speaker 2: That is such a confusing part of all of this,
Speaker 2: Like are you supposed to power through or like are
Speaker 2: you supposed to give it? Like I don't know, Oh no, No.
Speaker 5: I think loneliness is that I was very very lonely,
Speaker 5: painfully lonely, and I had my kids, you know, and
Speaker 5: I was like, why am I so lonely? Same exact
Speaker 5: way you're feeling, Yeah, And I found that I think
Speaker 5: that's a very normal process of it. I think that
Speaker 5: we are built for connection. We're social beings and I
Speaker 5: what really really helped me was journaling. That's what helped
Speaker 5: me deal with that loneliness. And I think it's a
Speaker 5: very normal process of it. And I don't I don't
Speaker 5: know your situation well enough, but I don't think it
Speaker 5: means that you need to go back. I think it's
Speaker 5: something that you're going to learn to develop a deeper
Speaker 5: relationship with yourself. Yeah, and you will. But it's very common.
Speaker 5: And I'm sorry going through that. I have a lot
Speaker 5: of empathy for you.
Speaker 6: Thank you the thick of it right now, you know,
Speaker 6: and it's very fresh and very hard, and I feel
Speaker 6: for her because none of this is easy and to
Speaker 6: pick yourself up and like even be on a podcast
Speaker 6: today and talk about it. You know, Teddy, you need
Speaker 6: to cut yourself a break. If you didn't say you
Speaker 6: felt lonely, I would be worried that you were.
Speaker 5: Like Yeah, and Teddy, I remember the loneliness being like gainful.
Speaker 5: I remember like an ink.
Speaker 2: And it's a constant ache that I'm trying to like
Speaker 2: fake my way through.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then it's like and I have talked about this
Speaker 2: in therapy. Then it's almost like I'm attracted to like
Speaker 2: another chaotic situation.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I don't want to give too much away about my
Speaker 2: parents or anything like that, but like, clearly my dad
Speaker 2: was a rock star. He met some girl he met
Speaker 2: at the Rainbow Room and it was my mom, and
Speaker 2: they had babies and he was married already.
Speaker 4: Like everything was a shit show.
Speaker 2: So like clearly there's been a lot of ups and
Speaker 2: downs in my life, and I my only goal has
Speaker 2: ever been like I just want to give like my
Speaker 2: kid's stability. Yeah, And I don't know, I guess I
Speaker 2: just I don't know if it's loneliness or I feel scared.
Speaker 2: I also don't feel like maybe I'm enough, you know,
Speaker 2: like all those things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, what's your listen, let's think about it.
Speaker 5: So there's loneliness, which is really fear and insecurity, right,
Speaker 5: But then there is is you know, like reflection, like
Speaker 5: trying to figure it all out. And then there's a
Speaker 5: degrief right for the life that you're not going to
Speaker 5: have anymore. And they're all normal feelings, you know, And
Speaker 5: that's why sometimes when you leave this very chaotic experience,
Speaker 5: it's good just to hunger down, be with you and
Speaker 5: your kids, you know, do what you're doing. But I
Speaker 5: implore you not to judge your feelings. They're all okay.
Speaker 5: It's like we get so hard on ourselves and they're
Speaker 5: shame too. Write you mentioned, yeah, so much shame. So
Speaker 5: there's so much shame. And shame is the worst to
Speaker 5: deal with because it means like I'm broken, I don't matter,
Speaker 5: I can't be fixed. But that's not true. You've just
Speaker 5: gone through a relational trauma. I implore you don't judge yourself.
Speaker 3: That he's always been hard on herself.
Speaker 4: Well, the world has always been hard on me.
Speaker 5: Nom we got to fire. You're in a critic don't
Speaker 5: internally you know it's so hard. You guys are in
Speaker 5: the spotlight. I don't even know how you do it, honestly,
Speaker 5: But I don't internalize. Everybody else projects all over you, guys.
Speaker 5: That's all it is is projection.
Speaker 2: If you're in a varian retirement and like you're looking
Speaker 2: to like expand your life in a relationship, like, how
Speaker 2: do you find yourself in a place where you don't
Speaker 2: put yourself exactly where you were before?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 5: So that's why I say, go to therapy. Take your
Speaker 5: personality trait tests. You have to know your attachment pattern.
Speaker 5: You have to know your personality traits. You have to
Speaker 5: understand your developmental trauma. You have to understand yourself before
Speaker 5: you can really choose effectively. And I have two sayings
Speaker 5: about that, if somebody can hear you, they can love you.
Speaker 5: And my husband, my current husband, I'll never forget the
Speaker 5: first one. We had an argument and I was and
Speaker 5: he goes, yeah, I can see that. I was like,
Speaker 5: what you can see that you can hear me? And
Speaker 5: it's also when you do enough work on yourself, and
Speaker 5: the work is never ending. I'm fifty seven and I
Speaker 5: still work on myself. You learn to trust yourself, and
Speaker 5: you will.
Speaker 3: I believe that.
Speaker 6: I believe that trusting yourself is the true is the
Speaker 6: true win in all of this is like being able
Speaker 6: to say, you know what, Erica, no, that is not right,
Speaker 6: and being sure, like just knowing it from your gut,
Speaker 6: like this is not right, that is not okay, or
Speaker 6: this is right.
Speaker 3: You know, this feels good.
Speaker 5: That's right? And what's the body? Don't trust the mind
Speaker 5: because that's where that you go in all the distortions,
Speaker 5: but the body doesn't lie, like you say, when that
Speaker 5: gut goes this is right, then you go don't ignore
Speaker 5: the uh oh, like I did when my ex asked
Speaker 5: me to get engaged and I said, yes, I grabbed
Speaker 5: the five carrot diamond. But my gut said, uh oh,
Speaker 5: So don't don't the guy.
Speaker 6: It's easy to be distracted by sparkley things.
Speaker 2: So while we're on the topic of some of these relationships,
Speaker 2: let's talk about some of the high profile relationships that
Speaker 2: have kind of come to an end this year. We've
Speaker 2: got Jessica Albat and Cash Warren. They're divorcing after sixteen
Speaker 2: years of marriage. She said they didn't always treat each
Speaker 2: other the best before they split, and they had become roommates.
Speaker 4: Do you think that's common, especially after having kids or.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that can happen for sure, right that, you know,
Speaker 5: to keep your sex life alive, it takes intention. And
Speaker 5: if you don't feel emotionally connected, especially women, they're not
Speaker 5: turned on, right, So I know exactly what's happening with
Speaker 5: their relationship. But I think that that can happen very.
Speaker 2: Readily, Sophie, if you're not actively working on pursuing the
Speaker 2: intimacy of your relationship, even if somebody is not a narcissist,
Speaker 2: even if there's not these issues like you're going to
Speaker 2: have distance.
Speaker 5: You're going to have it ends. Also the emotional intimacy.
Speaker 5: You know what's sexy is constantly revealing yourself and getting
Speaker 5: vulnerable with more and letting them know you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Then we've got Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas have been
Speaker 2: an extremely public custody battle. People believe Joe was weaponizing
Speaker 2: the press against his ex wife. We know now publicly
Speaker 2: that Joe Jonas, Brad Pitt, and some others they've all
Speaker 2: used the same pr company, which is I think quite
Speaker 2: common in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm not surprised essentially that.
Speaker 2: The question is when you see an ex start weaponizing
Speaker 2: their partner as a bad parent or this or that campaign.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: So what's like the appropriate response when that happens? From silence?
Speaker 5: I didn't say silence. Yeah I would. I would not
Speaker 5: give it airtime because you know your truth, you know
Speaker 5: the type of person you are, and it'll die down.
Speaker 5: They'll be in your headsline as we know tomorrow, and
Speaker 5: I would not waste my breath on that. Like when
Speaker 5: the movie came.
Speaker 3: Out, I'm like, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 5: I said nothing, you know what, because I had nothing
Speaker 5: to say, Now I use the movie and I exploit
Speaker 5: it to help women everywhere.
Speaker 4: That she is the exploit.
Speaker 5: But but I wasn't going to have Ben myself because
Speaker 5: I know who I am.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I tried that. It didn't work out.
Speaker 5: Yours was so different, you know, right, you tried to
Speaker 5: exactly there's our point. There's our point. Didn't work out, right,
Speaker 5: Like they'll they'll pick some They'll find somebody else to
Speaker 5: pick on. Go ahead.
Speaker 2: Our last celebrity couple we need to discuss are and
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you know who they are, but.
Speaker 4: It's Jax Taylor and Britney cart right.
Speaker 2: Which is the question that so many of our listeners
Speaker 2: have is if you are once a cheater.
Speaker 4: Are you always a cheater? Yes?
Speaker 3: Yes, sorry sorry doctor No.
Speaker 5: I love that you answered yes. And I do know
Speaker 5: them a little bit because I watch all the crazy
Speaker 5: people on YouTube that talk about all the reality shows
Speaker 5: because I'm a reality junkie, so this is so much
Speaker 5: fun for me. It's my guilty pleasure. So yes, I
Speaker 5: have heard about them, and I do think unless you
Speaker 5: like listen, here's the thing. Unless someone makes an intentional
Speaker 5: decision to change their patterns of behavior you're not going
Speaker 5: to change, right.
Speaker 3: And you cannot control them, no, not even for a second.
Speaker 6: Cannot and there's no point in even trying, because that
Speaker 6: is the That is the one thing I wish women
Speaker 6: understood is that. And I mean, and when you look
Speaker 6: at other women going through things, it's like you cannot
Speaker 6: control your partner.
Speaker 2: No, And something that he said, like I knew before
Speaker 2: we got married and then blah blah blah. I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: but then you've married her and then you had kids
Speaker 2: with her, like you made this decision repeatedly.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, Well there's a lot of children running around
Speaker 5: in adult bodies.
Speaker 3: This is true. Yeah, I'm one of them.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Same.
Speaker 5: I think I just stopped being one of fifty seven,
Speaker 5: So I get it. I get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll tell you what.
Speaker 6: And entering the dating pool or being seen right, So
Speaker 6: after I've been married all of my adult life, my
Speaker 6: first husband and now you know, my second husband, and
Speaker 6: just getting to a place where I feel like I
Speaker 6: can start to go out or be social or maybe
Speaker 6: even date someone, which I don't even know how to do,
Speaker 6: which is fine, but it's interesting because I feel like
Speaker 6: such a toddler, like I am a child running around
Speaker 6: in a body. This looks like a teenage dream, meaning
Speaker 6: it exploded with clothes like this looks like a little
Speaker 6: girl's house over here. But that's really where I'm at.
Speaker 6: Like I'm just trying to put it together.
Speaker 5: And that's okay, because you know what the best part
Speaker 5: is to know where you are. I know thyself and
Speaker 5: that's okay. And by the way, we're all we'reever better
Speaker 5: or worse. We're all just suffering human beings, and that's okay,
Speaker 5: like the same. I think once we once people realize
Speaker 5: that it makes life a lot easier.
Speaker 6: I have so enjoyed this conversation too.
Speaker 2: I'm like, and anyways, when you become my full time
Speaker 2: therapist now that you've been on the poden.
Speaker 8: Guys know I love housewives, so I'm so happy to
Speaker 8: be here and happy to support and shop me back
Speaker 8: whenever you want.
Speaker 6: All right, thanks having because I know that so many
Speaker 6: people would benefit from your expertise.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 5: Thank you, please stay safe okay by sending so much
Speaker 5: love to La.
Speaker 4: Thank you all right, bye bye bye