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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Diamonds in the

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Speaker 1: Rough with Me and Erica, and we are bringing on

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Speaker 1: Doctor Nadine aka Doctor Nay.

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Speaker 2: She is known to her patients as Doctor Nay. She

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Speaker 2: is the real life inspiration behind Naomi Belford's character in

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Speaker 2: The Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, I think we

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Speaker 2: all watched that movie with Margot Robbie and Leonardo DiCaprio,

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Speaker 2: but it wasn't just a movie, it was actually really

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Speaker 2: She survived a turbulent eight year marriage to Jordan Belfort,

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Speaker 2: marked by abuse, greed, and trauma. Following her experiences, Doctor Macuso,

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Speaker 2: which is Doctor Nadine, relocated to California. Her journey of

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Speaker 2: trauma and healing inspired her to return to school at

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Speaker 2: the age of thirty nine, where she earned her Masters

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Speaker 2: in Counseling and a PhD and somatic psychotherapy. She further

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Speaker 2: specialized with a two year postdoctoral training in the neuro

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Speaker 2: effective relational model. She also has a book Run Like Hell,

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Speaker 2: A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma bonds.

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Speaker 2: At age twenty two, she married Jordan the Nefario stockbroker

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Speaker 2: portrayed in the Hollywood blockbuster the Wolf of Wall Street.

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Speaker 2: The marriage began as a fairy tale, but once they

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Speaker 2: were bonded, Jordan's mask began to slip, and acts of infidelity,

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Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse, and insatiable greed and uncontrollable drug addiction became

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Speaker 2: Nadine's nightmare. She's here, so I feel like she could

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Speaker 2: give us more information than I can read off of

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Speaker 2: her bio.

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Speaker 3: So let's talk.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk. Hey guys, Hi, how are you?

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Speaker 5: Oh good, how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: We're doing okay, but we would love to hear just

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Speaker 2: a little bit of like your backstory, and then we'll

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Speaker 2: start asking questions and doing that kind of stuff, if

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Speaker 2: that works for.

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Speaker 5: You, sures sure. So, well, you know who I was

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Speaker 5: married to?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and hold on.

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Speaker 4: He's a motivational speaker now, correct.

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Speaker 5: Isn't that amazing? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: He is.

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Speaker 5: And so you know, I met him when I was

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Speaker 5: twenty two. I was so young and clueless, and this

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Speaker 5: was thirty years ago before and we was talking about

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Speaker 5: narcissism or trauma bonds or anything like that, right, And

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Speaker 5: so then I left him about eight years later and

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Speaker 5: restarted my life in la. I've lived in Manhattan Beach

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Speaker 5: for twenty four years. So my heart is broken for

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Speaker 5: Los Angeles right now. And I went back to school

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Speaker 5: at thirty nine, got my master's, got my doctorate. And

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Speaker 5: what was happening in my practice was I saw all

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Speaker 5: these smart, kind, beautiful women coming in being betrayed, having

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Speaker 5: financial abuse, being lied to, being coercively controlled. And I

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Speaker 5: was like, we have a problem. And I went back

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Speaker 5: to the research and wrote my book and now it's

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Speaker 5: my specialty.

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Speaker 6: For any of us that's our listening, Could you explain

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Speaker 6: what a trauma bond is? Yeah, I think people look,

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Speaker 6: I think they have an idea, but from an experts you.

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Speaker 5: Know, yeah, sure, sure, So a trauma bond is a toxic,

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Speaker 5: dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. There are a

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Speaker 5: few things that make it different. One of the things

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Speaker 5: is that the pathological person or perpetrator wants power and

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Speaker 5: control over their partner. That is their main mission while

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Speaker 5: they are so much whatever they call in love with

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Speaker 5: this person. Right, But it has to have two conditions

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Speaker 5: for it to be a trauma bond. There has to

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Speaker 5: be a powering balance. One person folds the power and

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Speaker 5: they exploit the power. Right, they can have it because

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Speaker 5: they have more resources.

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Speaker 3: See financial power. It could be anything. You think that these.

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Speaker 6: Personalities know what they are doing or are they just themselves?

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Speaker 5: I think it's both. They are just themselves. They have

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Speaker 5: personality disorders, so they think this is just who I am,

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Speaker 5: But they totally know what they're doing because they will harm, lie, exploit,

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Speaker 5: and betray anyone in everyone to get their needs met

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Speaker 5: for money, power, pleasure, and status. Right, and the second

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Speaker 5: piece of the trauma bond is the intermit and reinforcement,

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Speaker 5: where seventy percent of the time they're cruel, they're controlling,

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Speaker 5: they're betraying, their abusive, but that thirty percent they're kind,

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Speaker 5: generous and helpful.

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Speaker 6: And almost I'm almost like overly kind overly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, overly complimentary, like I'm sure.

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Speaker 6: That you got all the presence and all the trips

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Speaker 6: and all the shit right right right comfort and made

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Speaker 6: you feel loved and made you feel like it's not

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Speaker 6: that bad. Okay, he doesn't talk to me for two weeks,

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Speaker 6: but I can stick it out right right because.

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Speaker 5: I would get into a fight and then there would

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Speaker 5: be a horse in my driveway right as about So

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Speaker 5: there were these very so what happens is the extremity

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Speaker 5: of these two behaviors that they exhibit toward us is

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Speaker 5: actually what creates the bonds, because the research shows animal

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Speaker 5: trainers who use intermate reinforcement the animals bond to them

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Speaker 5: two hundred and thirty percent more than just straight kindness.

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Speaker 6: Wow, are these personalities born or are they made?

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Speaker 4: I was going to ask, is this learned or is

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Speaker 4: this learned?

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Speaker 5: It's learned. It's usually learned behavior, or they grow up

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Speaker 5: too entitled, or they're overly abused.

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Speaker 2: Even though we think that narcissists have these big egos,

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Speaker 2: they're actually the most insecure.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Is that accurate?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that can be accurate. And you know, I use

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Speaker 5: the term pathological lover because I think they're much more

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Speaker 5: than narcissists. They usually have some psychopathy, right, That's why

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Speaker 5: sometimes they're criminals. They have sadism, and then they have machiavellianism,

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Speaker 5: which means they're highly strategic and manipulative as Erica. You know,

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Speaker 5: I'm not telling you, you don't know, I'm just maybe

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Speaker 5: giving you names for it, you know.

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Speaker 3: Just confirming everything that I've experienced.

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Speaker 5: I know, unfortunately they live through.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's okay, I mean, you know, it's also interesting

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Speaker 6: to speak to someone who's also basically been through the

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Speaker 6: same thing, and it's nice that it really says a

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Speaker 6: lot to your character that you took this experience and really,

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Speaker 6: you know, went to school and are helping other women.

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Speaker 6: But it's it's hard when you're living with someone like

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Speaker 6: this because they're not all bad, but they're great, and

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Speaker 6: it's they're sort of mercurial in the way that they are,

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Speaker 6: and they there and I'm sure your ex husband too,

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Speaker 6: was very bright, and that's very bright, and that's how

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Speaker 6: they pull the shit off, because if you're a ding dong,

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Speaker 6: you cannot piculate all of these systems and all of

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Speaker 6: these people to your advantage.

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Speaker 5: That's right, that's right. And you know they're you know,

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Speaker 5: they're true con artists, right because they wear the mask

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Speaker 5: and I call the two masks Romeo and Dirty John

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Speaker 5: or Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde. But they can wear

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Speaker 5: that mask and have this amazing public image and trick everybody,

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Speaker 5: but then behind the scenes, you know, be very manipulative

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Speaker 5: and cruel to us, which can make it even more

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Speaker 5: confusing because now we are like gaslighting ourselves like it's

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Speaker 5: not that bad.

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Speaker 6: It's not that bad. I can stick out. It's really okay,

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Speaker 6: what's wrong with me? I should be grateful. This is

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Speaker 6: better than it could be. You know, it could always

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Speaker 6: be worse. Dah da da da. I think that we

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Speaker 6: as women, or especially women are are a lot more

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Speaker 6: susceptible to this entire thing. And I don't know about

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Speaker 6: your ex husband, Jordan, but Tom had some of the

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Speaker 6: best social skills I've ever seen in my entire life.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, most of the time, there's always an extreme

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Speaker 2: talent involved with this.

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Speaker 5: Correct correct? Correct? You know my ex is a grandiose narcissist, right,

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Speaker 5: he is the best seller in the world. I mean,

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Speaker 5: who does what he did and write a book and

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Speaker 5: then get the best people in the world to make

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Speaker 5: the book.

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Speaker 3: Now, he's a motivational speaker.

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Speaker 5: Yea motivational speaker. So yeah, And that's why I wrote

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Speaker 5: my book because I really wanted to take the stigma

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Speaker 5: away from the victim, because we're constantly asking like, didn't

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Speaker 5: she know? Why did she stay? Instead of asking no,

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Speaker 5: why does he do that?

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Speaker 2: I also want to know, like what it is, because

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Speaker 2: you know, I have a history in my life of

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Speaker 2: meeting people and thinking that.

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Speaker 4: I don't know maybe.

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Speaker 2: It's that I'm not enough and that I can make

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Speaker 2: them better and that I'm going to create this new life,

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Speaker 2: and then that gives me this whole that I'm feeling

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Speaker 2: in my heart or whatever it may be. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: what is it that creates us to do that?

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Speaker 5: Do we all have deficits? And do we all have

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Speaker 5: some form of developmental trauma? And do we all have

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Speaker 5: things that we need to fix about ourselves? Of course,

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Speaker 5: but that's different than pathology.

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Speaker 3: Pathology.

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Speaker 6: For anybody that's listening that may may not know, could

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Speaker 6: you explain pathology?

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Speaker 5: Pathology is someone who's mentally on well because they will

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Speaker 5: use harm and exploit anybody and everybody. You know, we

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Speaker 5: I went into my relationship with the intention to love

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Speaker 5: and connect. That didn't mean I didn't have my imperfections,

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Speaker 5: but it's the motive behind the behavior. I didn't go

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Speaker 5: in to use exploit, betraying control.

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Speaker 6: I'm going to ask you a question you and this

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Speaker 6: is just I'm asking from a personal point. So okay,

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Speaker 6: looking back, yes, were you ever confused at what you

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Speaker 6: were looking at or what you were experiencing? Even post

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Speaker 6: even looking back now, like, was I really did I

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Speaker 6: miss something?

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Speaker 3: Did I experience that why what is not clicking? What

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Speaker 3: was true? Really like what was true about my life?

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Speaker 5: Yes, that is very common, And there's a symptom that's

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Speaker 5: only for from a trauma band usually like cognitive dissionpines.

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Speaker 5: It's called which is the mental confusion that you feel

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Speaker 5: because you're constantly battling is a good? Is he bad? Am? I?

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Speaker 5: Is he crazy? Is a relationship? Good? Is a relationship AAD?

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Speaker 5: And so you have three different layers of cognitive dissonance

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Speaker 5: about you, him and the relationship that keep you totally

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Speaker 5: confused jury And it's one hundred percent symptom after trauma

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Speaker 5: badd Yes, it's a part. Yeah, so you have cognitive dissonance,

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Speaker 5: loss of self, and complex post traumatic stress disorder afterwards.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: And do you find that it makes people like I

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Speaker 2: feel like in general, ever since I've been a child,

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Speaker 2: I've had a very hard time being present, Okay, conversation,

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Speaker 2: Like if I'm with my kids, that's one thing, but

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Speaker 2: kind of any other situation, it's like my guard is

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Speaker 2: always like I'm here always, You're.

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Speaker 5: Like you're always being like being feeling hypervigilant.

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Speaker 4: And yes, and so is that a sign of that?

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Speaker 2: And then like, I guess that's one question, and then

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Speaker 2: the next question is like, as we're all moving to new.

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Speaker 4: Chapters of our life, like what is the difference? There's

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Speaker 4: trauma bonded.

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Speaker 2: And then a word that we hear a lot in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five is love bombing. I

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Speaker 2: don't fully under Yeah, what exactly is that?

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Speaker 5: So love bombing is a manipulation tactic, right, So it's

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Speaker 5: working for somebody to buy flowers and take you to

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Speaker 5: a nice center. But love bombing is intense, and it's

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Speaker 5: like constant admiration and adoration and constant texting and where

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Speaker 5: are you? And we're soulmates after two weeks? Right, And

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Speaker 5: I have a saying if it feels too good to

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Speaker 5: be true? And probably.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that. You know, it's interesting.

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Speaker 6: I remember when like Tom and I were married, he'd

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Speaker 6: called me forty times a day.

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Speaker 3: There I go normal and when you try for me, right.

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Speaker 5: But it's not normal, it's not healthy.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 6: But in the when I tell people this, they're like,

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Speaker 6: that's impossible. I was like, No, that was how I lived,

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Speaker 6: you know.

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Speaker 3: I lived like that.

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Speaker 6: For over twenty year, where I could get the most

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Speaker 6: charming most loving human being, and then there would be

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Speaker 6: this slight, you know, flick of the eye, and it'd

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Speaker 6: be completely different, or I mean, or to wash him

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Speaker 6: twist in front of someone else, like I've seen so

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Speaker 6: many things. But then and I don't know how you felt,

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Speaker 6: but I saw him do really generous things for people.

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Speaker 6: And I'm thinking, okay, let's talk about my Gabellianism or

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Speaker 6: you know, my abilia.

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Speaker 3: What you know?

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Speaker 6: What is true? What was true? What was this person's

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Speaker 6: true true personality? Was any of it real? Why was

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Speaker 6: I susceptible to that? Why did I buy into all

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Speaker 6: of that? And why did I defend that? And it's

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Speaker 6: a very difficult place to be, as you know, And

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Speaker 6: when you've never dealt with a personality like this, it

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Speaker 6: almost seems impossible.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And here's the thing, right, is that if you

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Speaker 5: are a trusting person, we just assume everybody's like us.

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Speaker 5: We can't even imagine that somebody like this exists until

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Speaker 5: we experience it. And again, it's those extreme kind, generous

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Speaker 5: mixed with the extreme crazy, controlling, brutal behaviors that cause

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Speaker 5: cognitive dissonance, and it keeps you tracked. It's the glue

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Speaker 5: cognitive dissonance is the glue, and when you see them nice,

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Speaker 5: you get hopeful. What wait, though, that is really who

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Speaker 5: they are, and then that's the book.

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Speaker 6: It almost even becomes more sweet when you see them like,

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Speaker 6: It becomes sweeter and they're nicer, and they're far more

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Speaker 6: loving and generous. And it's the unpredictable element of these

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Speaker 6: personalities is really what drives or at least drove me

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Speaker 6: to be like, what the heck am I dealing with? Right?

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Speaker 5: Because it's not a psychle because if it was psycho

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Speaker 5: we could predict it. You never know when the behavior's coming.

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Speaker 4: So that's narcissists actually love you.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, narcissism runs on a spectrum, right, So

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Speaker 5: I think there are some people that have severe rigid

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Speaker 5: personality disporters, and they're not going to change, and they're

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Speaker 5: not capable of love the way you and I think

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Speaker 5: about it, because they can't have empathy, they can't have compassion,

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Speaker 5: and love has two qualities, quality of connection and giving

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Speaker 5: someone the space to be who they are, and a

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Speaker 5: lot of times they can't do that, so often they're

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Speaker 5: not capable of loving us the way we need to

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Speaker 5: be loved.

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Speaker 3: I think that they're own version of love.

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Speaker 6: Like I think that they feel to a point, but

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Speaker 6: ultimately they're going to put themselves or their business or

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Speaker 6: their personal persona on their public persona.

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Speaker 5: First, right, And yeah, and we're not objects, right, We're like,

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Speaker 5: we're really more like objects to them. And again they

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Speaker 5: will use home, exploit and betray us to get their

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Speaker 5: needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I

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Speaker 5: just don't think that's love.

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Speaker 2: Is there a checklist or something equivalent to like the

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Speaker 2: signs for somebody to look out for?

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Speaker 5: Yes, in my book, I have a pathological lover checklist

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Speaker 5: and I have it on my website And here we go.

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Speaker 5: If you meet a guy and they're like, my eggs

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Speaker 5: is crazy, probably a reason why probably made her crazy?

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Speaker 5: Right away, starts to catch them in lies, right, starts

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Speaker 5: to be a little disrespectful, belittling you, blames you for everything,

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Speaker 5: words not matching actions, lacks of more skills or compassion. Right,

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Speaker 5: So I have sexual promiscuity, extreme substance abuse. Right, So

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Speaker 5: they all don't have every single thing, but all my

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Speaker 5: pathological lover checklists, I've forgot how many items there are.

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Speaker 5: If they score over certain amounts, run like cow don't wait,

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Speaker 5: because the longer you stay, the more you want to

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Speaker 5: invest into the relationship. Then you're like, oh god, I

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Speaker 5: got to stay. I invested.

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Speaker 6: I want to ask you. We're talking mostly about men,

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Speaker 6: but this is also true in women. Yeah, yes, so

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Speaker 6: men or you know, anyone that any.

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Speaker 5: Any sexual orientation, like any you know, any configuration of

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Speaker 5: our relationship. It can happen between Boston employee. It can

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Speaker 5: happen between friends, you know, it can happen in different

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Speaker 5: types of relationships, especially when there's a hierarchical difference right power.

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Speaker 6: And balance, whether it be financial or you know, professional,

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Speaker 6: that's usually the opportunity for these personalities to come in

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Speaker 6: and get you.

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Speaker 3: I mean, not get you, but yeah.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you become pray for them and and a

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Speaker 7: lot of times they gain power, Like my ex did

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Speaker 7: because he was so threatening and dominating and intimidating.

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Speaker 5: I fear him, so did I. Oh, I had severe fear. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: And when I tell people that, they just kind of

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Speaker 6: look at me like he was an older man, and

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Speaker 6: I was like, yeah, so yeah.

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Speaker 4: They're so even. So I have a question.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that somebody that is potentially raised by

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Speaker 2: a narcissist is more prone to then want to be

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Speaker 2: married to one.

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Speaker 5: You can be more prone because you had, you know,

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Speaker 5: a lacking for a father that wasn't there, or you

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Speaker 5: grew up with some developmental trauma. But in my book,

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Speaker 5: and this is what the research shows, there's a great

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Speaker 5: book called Women Who Love Psychopaths where I got a

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Speaker 5: lot of my research from, and I know it's a

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Speaker 5: great title. And what the research showed is that women

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Speaker 5: that score very high in certain personality traits and again

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Speaker 5: anybody could take it on my website, such as agreeableness

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Speaker 5: or conscientiousness means they're loyal, intolerance and pro social, or

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Speaker 5: very determined and disciplined, they are actually perfect prey for

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Speaker 5: these men. And I score very high in both because

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Speaker 5: those qualities that are good. But women comes to me

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Speaker 5: and she's like, I'm organized and I'm loving. I'm not

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Speaker 5: going to say, oh, we're going to therapize that out

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Speaker 5: of you. They get weaponized by this personality. They take

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Speaker 5: advantage of it. So it's not just that dysfunctional women.

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Speaker 5: You know, of course, yes there is there a reenactment

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Speaker 5: of relational trauma. Yes, but anyone in everyone in full

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Speaker 5: prey to these people.

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Speaker 3: How long did it take you to recover? Oh? How

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Speaker 3: about this? Or have you?

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Speaker 4: And did you find another person like him right after?

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Speaker 5: That's what I know. I dated a lot, I had

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Speaker 5: a lot of fun, and then I'm married for twenty

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Speaker 5: three years with my husband twenty five years. It took me,

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Speaker 5: I would say, a few years, and I've been in

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Speaker 5: a lot of therapy.

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Speaker 2: And what was the final straw?

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Speaker 5: Oh for me, Well, he kicked me down the stairs

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Speaker 5: when I told him I wanted him to get sober,

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Speaker 5: and so that was beyond scary. And the second straw

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Speaker 5: was when I told him how when he did get sober,

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Speaker 5: how hard it all was. He was like, it wasn't

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Speaker 5: that bad. And that lack of remorse put me over

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Speaker 5: the edge. And then once he got arrested and got

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Speaker 5: an ankle wrestlet, I knew I was safe because he

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Speaker 5: had lost all his power. The power and balance shifted. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: it's like bye bye. So I had three last straws.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you guys co parent, right, you have kids?

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Speaker 3: Yes? We do?

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Speaker 5: We do? We do?

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Speaker 2: And how does that work?

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Speaker 5: It works great? Because the power and balance shifted, So

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Speaker 5: I kind of got lucky. I always say that he

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Speaker 5: got arrested in a strange way. But my kids are great.

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Speaker 5: My daughter's a therapist, my son's a businessman. Like they're

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Speaker 5: doing great.

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Speaker 6: I'm happy to hear that. I'm happy to hear that,

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Speaker 6: you you know, are stay happy. Children are wonderful. We

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Speaker 6: came out the other side. But you know, we did

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Speaker 6: a lot of work.

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Speaker 5: We processed.

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Speaker 6: We didn't pretend, you know, having to go through something

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Speaker 6: like this which is super public, and having people weigh

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Speaker 6: in not really understanding, uh, you know, where I was

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Speaker 6: coming from or what I was experiencing.

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Speaker 3: And everything sort of filling in the blanks.

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Speaker 6: It's very difficult because it oftentimes takes a toll on

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Speaker 6: what am I really going through?

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Speaker 3: What am I seeing? Like how how do I.

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Speaker 6: Sift through this this entire blur of a life and

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Speaker 6: really get down to how do I heal and how

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Speaker 6: do I pull myself together?

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Speaker 3: Because that was the ultimate goal, Like I can roll them.

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Speaker 5: Okay, you could have control Tom. Oh my god, I

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Speaker 5: just got in control. I mean please, I was.

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Speaker 6: As good as Jordan, okay, right, Like you weren't controlling

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Speaker 6: Tom and you were not responsible for his behavior. No,

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Speaker 6: and I and I and I know that, but knowing

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Speaker 6: that and feeling that are two completely different things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like and feeling that from the.

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Speaker 6: Inside out and saying, you know what, Erica, these things

391
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Speaker 6: happened to you. There was some beautiful experiences, there were

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Speaker 6: some bad experiences, but ultimately that's over and he's gone

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Speaker 6: and you know whatever. But now I have to pull

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Speaker 6: myself together and move forward. And that, I think is

395
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Speaker 6: like it's the sweetest thing, but it's also the hardest

396
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 6: thing because you're totally it's almost like a you have

397
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Speaker 6: to look back and say what was true about that

398
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Speaker 6: life and who and what is this?

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Speaker 3: It can be very heavy.

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Speaker 5: Well, it is very heavy. It is very heavy. I

401
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 5: mean that's the whole last section my book all about

402
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Speaker 5: healing because the research shows though victims of this sort

403
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 5: of abuse, seventy five percent of them go on to

404
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 5: experience post traumatic growth if they do the work. So

405
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 5: you're going to be in that group. You're going to

406
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 5: experience post traumatic growth because you're putting in the work

407
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 5: and it is possible, but yeah, it takes a lot

408
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Speaker 5: of work.

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Speaker 4: But I also have another question, like there's.

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Speaker 2: Like we went to like, you know, this whole couple's

411
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: therapy thing, and it announced me as an introvert, and

412
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: like it was shocking information for everybody, even though I've

413
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 2: been saying this my entire life. I'm like, no, Like,

414
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Speaker 2: if I'm being paid to show up and do it,

415
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 2: I can do it. But like I'm naturally an introvert,

416
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Speaker 2: so I enjoy my alone time. I need to like

417
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: recharge all of these things. But there's moments that I'm

418
00:23:54,600 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: feeling now where I feel really low and I don't

419
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Speaker 2: know if those loneliness feelings mean that I've made a

420
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: mistake or like this is just something I have to

421
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: get used to and this is like the new change

422
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Speaker 2: in my life and oh my god, I'm so embarrassing

423
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Speaker 2: and getting emotional.

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Speaker 5: But like.

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Speaker 2: That is such a confusing part of all of this,

426
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Speaker 2: Like are you supposed to power through or like are

427
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: you supposed to give it? Like I don't know, Oh no, No.

428
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Speaker 5: I think loneliness is that I was very very lonely,

429
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Speaker 5: painfully lonely, and I had my kids, you know, and

430
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Speaker 5: I was like, why am I so lonely? Same exact

431
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 5: way you're feeling, Yeah, And I found that I think

432
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Speaker 5: that's a very normal process of it. I think that

433
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Speaker 5: we are built for connection. We're social beings and I

434
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Speaker 5: what really really helped me was journaling. That's what helped

435
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 5: me deal with that loneliness. And I think it's a

436
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 5: very normal process of it. And I don't I don't

437
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 5: know your situation well enough, but I don't think it

438
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 5: means that you need to go back. I think it's

439
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 5: something that you're going to learn to develop a deeper

440
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 5: relationship with yourself. Yeah, and you will. But it's very common.

441
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 5: And I'm sorry going through that. I have a lot

442
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 5: of empathy for you.

443
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 6: Thank you the thick of it right now, you know,

444
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 6: and it's very fresh and very hard, and I feel

445
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 6: for her because none of this is easy and to

446
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 6: pick yourself up and like even be on a podcast

447
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 6: today and talk about it. You know, Teddy, you need

448
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 6: to cut yourself a break. If you didn't say you

449
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 6: felt lonely, I would be worried that you were.

450
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 5: Like Yeah, and Teddy, I remember the loneliness being like gainful.

451
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 5: I remember like an ink.

452
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: And it's a constant ache that I'm trying to like

453
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: fake my way through.

454
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 5: Yeah.

455
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: But then it's like and I have talked about this

456
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: in therapy. Then it's almost like I'm attracted to like

457
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: another chaotic situation.

458
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 3: You know.

459
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 2: I don't want to give too much away about my

460
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: parents or anything like that, but like, clearly my dad

461
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 2: was a rock star. He met some girl he met

462
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: at the Rainbow Room and it was my mom, and

463
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: they had babies and he was married already.

464
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 4: Like everything was a shit show.

465
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 2: So like clearly there's been a lot of ups and

466
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 2: downs in my life, and I my only goal has

467
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: ever been like I just want to give like my

468
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: kid's stability. Yeah, And I don't know, I guess I

469
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: just I don't know if it's loneliness or I feel scared.

470
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: I also don't feel like maybe I'm enough, you know,

471
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: like all those things.

472
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, what's your listen, let's think about it.

473
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 5: So there's loneliness, which is really fear and insecurity, right,

474
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 5: But then there is is you know, like reflection, like

475
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 5: trying to figure it all out. And then there's a

476
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 5: degrief right for the life that you're not going to

477
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 5: have anymore. And they're all normal feelings, you know, And

478
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 5: that's why sometimes when you leave this very chaotic experience,

479
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 5: it's good just to hunger down, be with you and

480
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 5: your kids, you know, do what you're doing. But I

481
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 5: implore you not to judge your feelings. They're all okay.

482
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 5: It's like we get so hard on ourselves and they're

483
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 5: shame too. Write you mentioned, yeah, so much shame. So

484
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 5: there's so much shame. And shame is the worst to

485
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 5: deal with because it means like I'm broken, I don't matter,

486
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 5: I can't be fixed. But that's not true. You've just

487
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 5: gone through a relational trauma. I implore you don't judge yourself.

488
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 3: That he's always been hard on herself.

489
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 4: Well, the world has always been hard on me.

490
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 5: Nom we got to fire. You're in a critic don't

491
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 5: internally you know it's so hard. You guys are in

492
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 5: the spotlight. I don't even know how you do it, honestly,

493
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 5: But I don't internalize. Everybody else projects all over you, guys.

494
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 5: That's all it is is projection.

495
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: If you're in a varian retirement and like you're looking

496
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: to like expand your life in a relationship, like, how

497
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: do you find yourself in a place where you don't

498
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: put yourself exactly where you were before?

499
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 3: Right?

500
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 5: So that's why I say, go to therapy. Take your

501
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 5: personality trait tests. You have to know your attachment pattern.

502
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 5: You have to know your personality traits. You have to

503
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 5: understand your developmental trauma. You have to understand yourself before

504
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 5: you can really choose effectively. And I have two sayings

505
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 5: about that, if somebody can hear you, they can love you.

506
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 5: And my husband, my current husband, I'll never forget the

507
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 5: first one. We had an argument and I was and

508
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 5: he goes, yeah, I can see that. I was like,

509
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 5: what you can see that you can hear me? And

510
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 5: it's also when you do enough work on yourself, and

511
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 5: the work is never ending. I'm fifty seven and I

512
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 5: still work on myself. You learn to trust yourself, and

513
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 5: you will.

514
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 3: I believe that.

515
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 6: I believe that trusting yourself is the true is the

516
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 6: true win in all of this is like being able

517
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 6: to say, you know what, Erica, no, that is not right,

518
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 6: and being sure, like just knowing it from your gut,

519
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 6: like this is not right, that is not okay, or

520
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 6: this is right.

521
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: You know, this feels good.

522
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 5: That's right? And what's the body? Don't trust the mind

523
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 5: because that's where that you go in all the distortions,

524
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 5: but the body doesn't lie, like you say, when that

525
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 5: gut goes this is right, then you go don't ignore

526
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 5: the uh oh, like I did when my ex asked

527
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 5: me to get engaged and I said, yes, I grabbed

528
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 5: the five carrot diamond. But my gut said, uh oh,

529
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 5: So don't don't the guy.

530
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 6: It's easy to be distracted by sparkley things.

531
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: So while we're on the topic of some of these relationships,

532
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: let's talk about some of the high profile relationships that

533
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: have kind of come to an end this year. We've

534
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: got Jessica Albat and Cash Warren. They're divorcing after sixteen

535
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: years of marriage. She said they didn't always treat each

536
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: other the best before they split, and they had become roommates.

537
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 4: Do you think that's common, especially after having kids or.

538
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, that can happen for sure, right that, you know,

539
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 5: to keep your sex life alive, it takes intention. And

540
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 5: if you don't feel emotionally connected, especially women, they're not

541
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 5: turned on, right, So I know exactly what's happening with

542
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 5: their relationship. But I think that that can happen very.

543
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: Readily, Sophie, if you're not actively working on pursuing the

544
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: intimacy of your relationship, even if somebody is not a narcissist,

545
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: even if there's not these issues like you're going to

546
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: have distance.

547
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 5: You're going to have it ends. Also the emotional intimacy.

548
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 5: You know what's sexy is constantly revealing yourself and getting

549
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 5: vulnerable with more and letting them know you. Yeah.

550
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: Then we've got Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas have been

551
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: an extremely public custody battle. People believe Joe was weaponizing

552
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: the press against his ex wife. We know now publicly

553
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: that Joe Jonas, Brad Pitt, and some others they've all

554
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: used the same pr company, which is I think quite

555
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: common in Los Angeles.

556
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm not surprised essentially that.

557
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: The question is when you see an ex start weaponizing

558
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: their partner as a bad parent or this or that campaign.

559
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

560
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 4: So what's like the appropriate response when that happens? From silence?

561
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 5: I didn't say silence. Yeah I would. I would not

562
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 5: give it airtime because you know your truth, you know

563
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 5: the type of person you are, and it'll die down.

564
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 5: They'll be in your headsline as we know tomorrow, and

565
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 5: I would not waste my breath on that. Like when

566
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 5: the movie came.

567
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: Out, I'm like, that's right, that's right.

568
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 5: I said nothing, you know what, because I had nothing

569
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 5: to say, Now I use the movie and I exploit

570
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 5: it to help women everywhere.

571
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: That she is the exploit.

572
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 5: But but I wasn't going to have Ben myself because

573
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 5: I know who I am.

574
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I tried that. It didn't work out.

575
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 5: Yours was so different, you know, right, you tried to

576
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 5: exactly there's our point. There's our point. Didn't work out, right,

577
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 5: Like they'll they'll pick some They'll find somebody else to

578
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 5: pick on. Go ahead.

579
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: Our last celebrity couple we need to discuss are and

580
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you know who they are, but.

581
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 4: It's Jax Taylor and Britney cart right.

582
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: Which is the question that so many of our listeners

583
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: have is if you are once a cheater.

584
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 4: Are you always a cheater? Yes?

585
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: Yes, sorry sorry doctor No.

586
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 5: I love that you answered yes. And I do know

587
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 5: them a little bit because I watch all the crazy

588
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 5: people on YouTube that talk about all the reality shows

589
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: because I'm a reality junkie, so this is so much

590
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 5: fun for me. It's my guilty pleasure. So yes, I

591
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 5: have heard about them, and I do think unless you

592
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 5: like listen, here's the thing. Unless someone makes an intentional

593
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 5: decision to change their patterns of behavior you're not going

594
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 5: to change, right.

595
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 3: And you cannot control them, no, not even for a second.

596
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 6: Cannot and there's no point in even trying, because that

597
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 6: is the That is the one thing I wish women

598
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 6: understood is that. And I mean, and when you look

599
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 6: at other women going through things, it's like you cannot

600
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 6: control your partner.

601
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 2: No, And something that he said, like I knew before

602
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: we got married and then blah blah blah. I'm like, well,

603
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: but then you've married her and then you had kids

604
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: with her, like you made this decision repeatedly.

605
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, Well there's a lot of children running around

606
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 5: in adult bodies.

607
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 3: This is true. Yeah, I'm one of them.

608
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 4: Yeah. Same.

609
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 5: I think I just stopped being one of fifty seven,

610
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 5: So I get it. I get it.

611
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll tell you what.

612
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 6: And entering the dating pool or being seen right, So

613
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 6: after I've been married all of my adult life, my

614
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 6: first husband and now you know, my second husband, and

615
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 6: just getting to a place where I feel like I

616
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 6: can start to go out or be social or maybe

617
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 6: even date someone, which I don't even know how to do,

618
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 6: which is fine, but it's interesting because I feel like

619
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 6: such a toddler, like I am a child running around

620
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 6: in a body. This looks like a teenage dream, meaning

621
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 6: it exploded with clothes like this looks like a little

622
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 6: girl's house over here. But that's really where I'm at.

623
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 6: Like I'm just trying to put it together.

624
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 5: And that's okay, because you know what the best part

625
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 5: is to know where you are. I know thyself and

626
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 5: that's okay. And by the way, we're all we'reever better

627
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 5: or worse. We're all just suffering human beings, and that's okay,

628
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 5: like the same. I think once we once people realize

629
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 5: that it makes life a lot easier.

630
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 6: I have so enjoyed this conversation too.

631
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 2: I'm like, and anyways, when you become my full time

632
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: therapist now that you've been on the poden.

633
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 8: Guys know I love housewives, so I'm so happy to

634
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 8: be here and happy to support and shop me back

635
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 8: whenever you want.

636
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 6: All right, thanks having because I know that so many

637
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 6: people would benefit from your expertise.

638
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your time.

639
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 5: Thank you, please stay safe okay by sending so much

640
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 5: love to La.

641
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 4: Thank you all right, bye bye bye