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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, we read about

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Speaker 1: serial killers all the time. There's gaycy, there's BTK buying

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Speaker 1: torture killed Dennis Raider, there's Ted Bundy. Of course, there's

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Speaker 1: a night stalker. They go on and on and on,

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Speaker 1: and they're almost fabled. That's not good. They're not just

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Speaker 1: stories and some paperback novel They're real. And here is

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Speaker 1: a brand new one right under our noses, a prolific

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Speaker 1: serial killer. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is how

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Speaker 1: the whole thing starts. Listen. Twenty one year old Matthew

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Speaker 1: Miller's girlfriend reported him missing early in the year. He

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Speaker 1: was last seen on January twenty fourth. During that investigation,

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Speaker 1: Grant's police discovered other individuals may also be missing, namely

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Speaker 1: thirty nine year old Jennifer Lennon and forty year old

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Speaker 1: Jetson Mata. Police began looking for the pair, who were

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Speaker 1: friends with Miller. They were wanted for questioning about Miller's disappearance.

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Speaker 1: Just a young kid, really, just twenty one years old,

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Speaker 1: just starting out in life, and suddenly he goes missing

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Speaker 1: with me an all star panel and believe me. When

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Speaker 1: they started investigating, investigating Matthew's disappearance. It unraveled a story

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Speaker 1: like none I have ever heard. With me Leavipay's Crime

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Speaker 1: Online dot com, investigative reporter, host of Crime and Scandal

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Speaker 1: to podcast on YouTube. Doctor at Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist,

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Speaker 1: former medical examiner, author homicide investigation field guide, and former sheriff.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert and founder of the Coldcase Research Institute.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at Coldcase Crimes dot org. Psychoanalyst

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Speaker 1: to the Stars, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us out of

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Speaker 1: LA She's a star of a brand new hit series

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Speaker 1: on Netflix called Bling Empire, and you can find her

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Speaker 1: at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Dale Carson right now,

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Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney and he practices out of Jacksonville. But

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Speaker 1: what you may not know is he's former FBI and

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Speaker 1: cop author of Arrest Proof Yourself at Dalecarson Law dot com.

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Speaker 1: But right now joining me to very special guests connected

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Speaker 1: to Matthew Miller, just twenty one years old when he

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Speaker 1: goes missing. Daisy Castillo and I want to tell you

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Speaker 1: about the go fund me search Matthew Miller's services. There's

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Speaker 1: just one tea in Matthew. Daisy Castillo with me. This

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Speaker 1: is Matthew's aunt, and also with us Matthew's grandmother, Nita Schult,

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Speaker 1: both of them joining us out of New Mexico, Daisy Castillo,

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Speaker 1: Miss Castillo, do you remember when you first learned that

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Speaker 1: moment you learned Matthew is missing. Yeah, we knew right

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Speaker 1: away something was wrong because this kid was an animal

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Speaker 1: lover and he left his animals be hunt and right away,

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Speaker 1: you know, my mom made a police louver that I gave.

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Speaker 1: My mom made a police you're cutting down out of me,

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Speaker 1: Daisy Castillo. This is Matthew's aunt saying that day when

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Speaker 1: nobody could find Matthew and they realized he had left

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Speaker 1: his animals untended, they knew something was horribly wrong and

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Speaker 1: made a police report. So, misscus Dio, how did you

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Speaker 1: find out Matthew was missing? Honestly, my mom's good friend, Yabby,

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Speaker 1: she lives next to her, next door to Matthews, and

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Speaker 1: she had called my mom and said, hey, I haven't

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Speaker 1: seen Matthew's truck for about a week. Holy whoa, whoa

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Speaker 1: wait right there, right there? Hold on. Cheryl McCall him,

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Speaker 1: Director Coal Case Research institute a week's lead. I mean

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Speaker 1: you and I do backflips when it takes three hours

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Speaker 1: to support to report somebody missing. Because every hour, you

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Speaker 1: can count on sixty miles an hour. That's how fast

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Speaker 1: somebody could be getting away with the missing person. In

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Speaker 1: a week, you could drive and be in another country.

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Speaker 1: In a week, you can dispose of every single thing

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Speaker 1: connecting you to that victim, the weapon, their identity, fingerprints,

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Speaker 1: you can destroy everything, that amount of everything. So thank you,

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Speaker 1: miss Castillo. Now back to why it took a week.

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Speaker 1: Because Matthew was with his girlfriend alat So when we

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Speaker 1: called the girlfriend, the girlfriend, yeah, he's been missing. I

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Speaker 1: told him, excuse my linguae to Tori wi the by

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Speaker 1: the hello did you call my mom? We could have

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Speaker 1: made a report a long time ago. The night that

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Speaker 1: he didn't come home and mine's been when to come

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Speaker 1: home at night, I'm I'm making a police report. But she,

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Speaker 1: for some mean, she didn't tell nobody and tell the

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Speaker 1: neighbor called my mom. We have no idea, no clue

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Speaker 1: why she didn't share that info that you know, because

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Speaker 1: Matthew didn't. Maybe she thought they were in some kind

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Speaker 1: of a spat and she was trying to wait him

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Speaker 1: out to Nina Shault, Miss schult Is, Matthew's grandmother, misschel,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. When did you learn

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Speaker 1: your grandson was missing? We didn't even know for a

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Speaker 1: week because she didn't call us. And then, like I said,

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Speaker 1: my friend Daddy told us that he hadn't been as

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Speaker 1: so immediately we went over there and started to the house,

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Speaker 1: you know, see if there was something going on in there.

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Speaker 1: And I followed the police report. And then about a

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Speaker 1: week after that, our detective or Mason posters and what's

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Speaker 1: funny about that? And it's not funny. I don't mean

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Speaker 1: that posters. The day we posted posters is a day

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Speaker 1: to police founded. Struck found his trust. I mean within

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Speaker 1: hours of us, guys, the search for twenty one year

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Speaker 1: old Matthew uh started the unraveling of an incredible story.

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Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen now to this.

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Speaker 1: Sport Documents show Jennifer Lennon and Sean Lennon divorced in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. He sought and one custody of their three children.

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Speaker 1: Relative say in early March, Sean Lennon flew to his parents'

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Speaker 1: home in New Jersey with his children, six and seven

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Speaker 1: year old girls and a four year old boy. He

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Speaker 1: left again, saying that he was going to look for

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Speaker 1: his ex wife, Chris Whitman, Jennifer len and his brother

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Speaker 1: says he was told that she had run off with

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Speaker 1: some friends, possibly to Arizona. Whitman says the story didn't

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Speaker 1: sound right because she was a great mom and it

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Speaker 1: was uncharacteristic for her not to be with her children.

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Speaker 1: So now, from a completely different direction of left field

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Speaker 1: comes another missing person. Jennifer Lannon. Now Jennifer Lannon is

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Speaker 1: thirty nine, is a thirty nine year old mom. Matthew

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Speaker 1: Miller is a twenty one year old man boy with

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Speaker 1: a girlfriend. Now these two both go missing, and at

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Speaker 1: first there's really no connection. I want to circle back

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Speaker 1: to you, Leavi Page. I want to talk about first Matthew.

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Speaker 1: Matthew goes missing. The truck has been gone a week

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Speaker 1: before anybody realizes he's gone. Tell me what we know

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Speaker 1: at the get go. About twenty one year old Matthew

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Speaker 1: Miller disappearing. His truck had not been discovered at his home.

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Speaker 1: It's been missing for a week. His neighbor informed the family,

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Speaker 1: and his girlfriend also said she had not seen him

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Speaker 1: for a week. He was reported missing in late January.

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Speaker 1: And this was an animal lover who had left his

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Speaker 1: animals unattended, so automatically he went missing under extremely suspicious circumstances. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalysts joining us. Doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 1: you know the other woman is a mother, Jennifer Lannon,

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Speaker 1: a devoted mother to Tats. Then you've got this dog

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Speaker 1: lover from two ends of the spectrum, not connected. Both

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Speaker 1: go missing, but in both cases the behavioral evidence. She

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Speaker 1: leaves her Tats behind, he leaves all his animals behind,

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Speaker 1: and he is a real animal lover. Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Guys, the story of a serial killer begins

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Speaker 1: to unravel, and it all starts with an animal lover

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Speaker 1: twenty one year old. He's not there to take care

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Speaker 1: of his animals, and the neighbor calls his family. Little

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Speaker 1: does she know the story that would unfold. Go ahead, Bethany, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's no reason in this dan age, with all of

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Speaker 1: our electronics, our phones, Twitter, Instagram, all of that for

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Speaker 1: anybody to be on a touch for more than an hour.

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Speaker 1: So that what links these two potential victims together is

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Speaker 1: that they dropped out of sight everywhere, and everybody minimized it. Nancy.

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Speaker 1: If I have a patient who doesn't show up for

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Speaker 1: a session and I'm concerned, I do what's called a

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Speaker 1: welfare check. I get their address, I call the police.

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Speaker 1: I have to go the police, go knock on their

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Speaker 1: door and make sure they're okay. And I've had patients

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Speaker 1: leave therapy over it or be really angry at me.

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Speaker 1: But twice in thirty years, I had a patient who

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Speaker 1: is trying to commit suicide and didn't come to a

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Speaker 1: session because they didn't want me to know, and the

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Speaker 1: police got there in time. Two times in thirty years.

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Speaker 1: So for your listeners and viewers, it's really important when

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Speaker 1: somebody goes missing, just call nine one one, have them

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Speaker 1: go knock on the person's door. Don't do not let

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Speaker 1: a week go by. You know what's so interesting about

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Speaker 1: what you're saying to Dale Carson, former FBI, former author

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Speaker 1: of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's a lawyer now at Dale

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Speaker 1: Carson Law dot com. Dale behavioral evidence And I don't

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Speaker 1: it's called routine evidence. And I don't mean standard routine.

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Speaker 1: You know, just run of the meal evidence is routine.

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Speaker 1: I mean evidence of your routine. For him to just

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Speaker 1: leave his animals and for her to just leave her children,

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Speaker 1: it left no doubt in everybody's mind something was horribly wrong.

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Speaker 1: But why, seemingly is that never enough for police? Well,

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Speaker 1: this is called psychological profiling, and it looks at a

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Speaker 1: person's history to determine whether or not they've acted in

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Speaker 1: accordance with that personal history, and if they haven't, that

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Speaker 1: indicates there's a problem, and certainly law enforcement because most

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Speaker 1: of these individuals are adults. Adults have free will, they

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Speaker 1: don't have to contact anybody, so that causes this constant

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Speaker 1: delay in reporting, and we all feel embarrassed call the

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Speaker 1: police and report somebody missing. They're going to be angry

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Speaker 1: with you. The police don't want to do it anyway,

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Speaker 1: so everybody's upset. We use so there's a wall preventing

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Speaker 1: you from doing what any reasonable responsible friend would do.

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Speaker 1: You know, Chary McCollum, you heard need a Shalt and

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Speaker 1: Daisy Castillo, who are the grandmother and aunt of Matthew

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Speaker 1: Miller speaking, what would you be looking for in twenty

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Speaker 1: one year old Matthew Miller's home when you go to

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Speaker 1: check on him and the pets what's missing. That killer

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Speaker 1: took something. He targeted him for a reason. And so

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Speaker 1: again when you're talking about these patterns, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be critical to know what did he take because that's

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Speaker 1: what he's using. So for example, was it a bank card,

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Speaker 1: was it a photo ID? Was it a vehicle? There

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Speaker 1: was something he gained from that victim from the murder,

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Speaker 1: So we've got are you talking about Trophy's dark No,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually talking about something I think that he's physically using.

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Speaker 1: I think he targets people because of what he needs.

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Speaker 1: For example, let's say he's going to use these ride

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Speaker 1: shares with a fake ID. He's getting them from these victims.

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Speaker 1: So if you look at one victim is twenty one,

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Speaker 1: one is forty one, is sixty a forty seven year

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Speaker 1: old man maybe weaving in and out with different ideas

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Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. That's how we're staying on

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Speaker 1: the run. So if you look at Virginia, Saint Louis,

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, he's criss crossing to stay undetected. So LEVI Page,

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Speaker 1: I know that Matthew Miller goes missing in New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: I know Jennifer Lannon goes missing in New Mexico. Who's

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Speaker 1: the next person to go missing? Levi Well and Nancy

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Lannon went missing. She's thirty nine years old. She

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Speaker 1: went missing in New Mexico and her husband dropped the

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Speaker 1: kids off with her parents in New Jersey. He said,

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Speaker 1: I'm going back to New Mexico to search for Jennifer.

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Speaker 1: And then there is Michael Debowski who was found dead

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Speaker 1: in New Jersey, and others were also missing in New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: But about Randall app Pistolon, Yeah, he went missing in

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Speaker 1: New Mexico as well, and police were beginning to connect

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Speaker 1: all the dots, with questions arising all over the country.

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Speaker 1: This happens next listen. The search for Matthew Miller, Jennifer Lennon,

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Speaker 1: and Jetsenmata went on for weeks, ending when the bodies

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Speaker 1: of all three were found in a vehicle in a

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Speaker 1: parking garage at Albuquerque International Sunport, New Mexico's largest airport.

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Speaker 1: And there was another victim, sixty year old Albuquerque resident

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Speaker 1: Randall Aposta Leone. The bodies were found inside Apostallon's truck

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Speaker 1: on the top level of the parking garage. So the

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Speaker 1: search for Matthew ends and even more questions. Back to you,

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Speaker 1: Daisy Castillo, Matthew's aunt, When were you alerted that his

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Speaker 1: body had been found but that it was dismembered? Um

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Speaker 1: while we actually we read it on Facebook, called called

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Speaker 1: the Then when we called the detectives, they said no.

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Speaker 1: And then the next day they not was on what

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Speaker 1: on the fifth or the sixth? Yeah, and we read

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Speaker 1: it on the Facebook, and then the six they came

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Speaker 1: and let us know that it was Matthew. They told

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Speaker 1: us no at first, and then they had an officer

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Speaker 1: come let us know the next day, Miss Schult, what

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Speaker 1: is your recollection of discovering Matthew was in fact dead

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Speaker 1: and had been dismembered. I rosed it, honestly. Did someone

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Speaker 1: call you on the phone. My mom was at my house.

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Speaker 1: We were all at my house, and that the cop

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Speaker 1: was at her house and we told him to meet

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Speaker 1: us at them the Long Supermarket that's a little grocery

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Speaker 1: store down from my house, and that's where we all

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Speaker 1: found out and it was go ahead. It was rough,

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Speaker 1: It was it was devastating. Like I said, we lost

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Speaker 1: his mom in April and now him and it was

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Speaker 1: just and this was the worst way. He didn't deserve it,

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Speaker 1: and it was devastating. Tool. I mean, it's it's changed

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Speaker 1: the whole family. I don't even want my kids walking

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Speaker 1: down the road. Nata's Shawl. This is Matthew's grandmother, Miss Saul.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the moment you discovered that Matthew, your

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Speaker 1: grandson was dead, not just dead, but dismembered as well.

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Speaker 1: I lost it, I really did. We kind of know

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Speaker 1: what they were going to have, but it was hard

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Speaker 1: to hear in it. I'm sorry him crying. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just can't imagine that, learning from Facebook, then asking them

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Speaker 1: they say no, and then you find out in fact

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Speaker 1: it is true. And you know what, it's almost more harsh,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany, because you have that moment of thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: thank goodness, that's not him, only to find out yes,

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Speaker 1: it was him. You know, the reality changing again and

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Speaker 1: again all that time that they were waiting, and then

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Speaker 1: the idea that he's dismembered in the car at an

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Speaker 1: airport parking lot. It leaves so many questions in the

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Speaker 1: victim's family's minds, like how did he get there, who

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Speaker 1: dismembered him, what were his final moments? Like you know,

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Speaker 1: trauma is not just losing somebody. But it's knowing that

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Speaker 1: the loved one went through some painful or excruciating experience.

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Speaker 1: It's not what happens to us the cause of trauma.

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Speaker 1: It's knowing that a loved one suffered. That's more traumatic

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Speaker 1: than harm being done to the self. So I think

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Speaker 1: all these questions, the ambiguity the unknown is just rife

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Speaker 1: for English, Nancy, just anguish. I want to go to

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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree, joining US forensic pathologists, former medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor Dupree not only

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Speaker 1: as a family shocked by the discovery their young twenty

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Speaker 1: one year old grandson, their nephew is dead, but that

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Speaker 1: he's dismembered in a car at an airport in Albuquerque,

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Speaker 1: and there are other dismembered people. That's almost too much

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Speaker 1: to take in Doctor Michelle Dupree as a crime scene

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Speaker 1: the investigator for the Medical Examiner's Office. As a medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: how do you handle a scene like that? Nancy, It's difficult.

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Speaker 1: You have to be so careful. There is likely so

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Speaker 1: much evidence, there's also contamination. You have to deal with

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Speaker 1: how long the scene has been there, how long have

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Speaker 1: the body's been there? You have more than one body,

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Speaker 1: it's horrific. You have to do everything very methodically. You

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Speaker 1: have to make sure that everything is a photographed for

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Speaker 1: sure in place, and then that everything is taken back

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Speaker 1: to the medical Examiner's office and very carefully examined crime

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Speaker 1: stories with me, grace. Guys, we're talking about a serial

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Speaker 1: killer under the nose, under the noses friends and family,

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Speaker 1: his crimes spanning across the country, and it all starts

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Speaker 1: with the twenty one year old Matthew Miller who doesn't

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Speaker 1: feed his pets, and the neighbor calls and he's reported missing.

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Speaker 1: And the story that unfolds is like no other. To

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert,

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Speaker 1: that car and everything about it has to be handled

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Speaker 1: very carefully, very carefully. And it brings to mind the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Fulton County Courthouse shooting. You recall, I was on

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Speaker 1: a plane from New York to LA when I got

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Speaker 1: a text about the shooting. I grabbed my bag, got

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Speaker 1: off that plane and got on another plane to Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Our friend, our colleague, Al Dixon, was part of the

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Speaker 1: crew that process that scene multiple mass shooting, and it

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Speaker 1: took literally days correct to process the saying. The bodies

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Speaker 1: had to lay where they were for hours for the

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Speaker 1: photographs and measurements, and then once the bodies were removed,

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Speaker 1: then came the task of actually processing for evidence. It's

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Speaker 1: very difficult to process a scene like this. How do

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Speaker 1: you do at Cheryl again, Nancy? For me, it's going

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Speaker 1: to start from the outside end. You don't want to

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Speaker 1: go in too quickly. There's going to be prints and

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Speaker 1: things on the outside of that car. There may be

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Speaker 1: dust or sand to give you an idea of where

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Speaker 1: all that car has traveled. There could be stuff under

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Speaker 1: the undercarriage. You're going to want to look at everything.

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Speaker 1: Every single thing matters. Are the keys in it or

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Speaker 1: the light zone? What's in the trunk, what's in the

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Speaker 1: glove compartment? How are the victims or the heads with

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Speaker 1: each body? Are they separated? Are they just thrown in?

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Speaker 1: Can you possibly understand you know who was murdered first

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Speaker 1: based on how they are found as any victim on

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Speaker 1: top of the other victim. You've got to do all

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Speaker 1: of these things before you even begin to touch anything

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Speaker 1: on the inside of that car. You're talking about days

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Speaker 1: to doctor Micheltu pree the other The reverse side of that,

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Speaker 1: the flip side is you've got to get those bodies

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Speaker 1: in as quickly as possible to the medical Examiner's office

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Speaker 1: in order to do the best autopsy possible. The body

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Speaker 1: will unlock so many clues. Right. The longer you delay,

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Speaker 1: the worse it's going to get. But in I say,

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Speaker 1: some of the bodies have been dead for three months,

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Speaker 1: and so when putrification takes effect, you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of that evidence disappears. A lot of the actual evidence

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Speaker 1: that can be used to determined manner of death disappears.

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Speaker 1: So they've been in the heat on the top floor

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Speaker 1: of a parking lot for several months. And I've got

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Speaker 1: to know that's a difficult crime see to look at

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Speaker 1: and to analyze. And I'm sure that top floor was

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Speaker 1: chosen for a reason because who takes their car all

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Speaker 1: the way to the top of the deck to park it.

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Speaker 1: He knew that nobody was going to come up there

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Speaker 1: and find these bodies. Now, you were just hearing Dell

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Speaker 1: Carson and former FBI speaking to doctor Michelle dupree way

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Speaker 1: in Actually, what we would do in many cases, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: is after everything has been photographed in place at the

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Speaker 1: scene where the van is found. We would then move

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Speaker 1: the van to the Medical Examiner's office so that it

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Speaker 1: could be processed in the garage at the emmy's office.

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Speaker 1: You still have to take so much time, and it

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Speaker 1: can take days actually to do that. But as soon

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Speaker 1: as we can process that van and the bodies inside

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Speaker 1: at the emmy's office, we can begin to collect evidence.

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Speaker 1: And even though they may be somewhat decomposed, we can

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Speaker 1: still collect certain evidence from that, from the fluids and

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Speaker 1: everything else that remains inside that van. So let me

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Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. You wouldn't even take the bodies

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Speaker 1: from the vehicle. You'd take the vehicle to the emmy's office. Yes,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes we would do that. We would take the complete

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Speaker 1: vehicle after it had been photographed in place at the

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Speaker 1: scene and all the things that we could gather at

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Speaker 1: the scene were done, then we would remove the entire

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Speaker 1: vehicle intact to the garage at the Medical Examiner's office

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Speaker 1: and continue the investigation there. Yeah, you're right, I didn't

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Speaker 1: even think of that. You're absolutely right. Is that Dell

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Speaker 1: jumping in? Go ahead? It's not all that unusual. We've

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Speaker 1: actually shifted the entire pay telephone booth to the bureau

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Speaker 1: to have it analyzed because we were so concerned that

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Speaker 1: we might lose evidence. Wow, So you can imagine the

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Speaker 1: agents lifting a telephone booth onto a truck to transport it.

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Speaker 1: That's why you guys are the experts. So here we

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Speaker 1: have this happening in an Albuquerque airport in a vehicle,

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Speaker 1: and you've got Nita Shault, the grandma. You've got Jays Castillo,

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Speaker 1: the aunt, just reeling with the news that this is

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Speaker 1: in fact, twenty one year old Matthew Miller, and he's

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Speaker 1: a dead and he's been dismembered. He's in a car

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Speaker 1: parked at an airport on the top floor of the

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Speaker 1: parking deck. Can you imagine getting that phone call? Then

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Speaker 1: they find out there are other bodies that are in

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Speaker 1: the vehicle, also dismembered, as Dale told you earlier from

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Speaker 1: months B four. So what is happening in this case?

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Speaker 1: We'll hold onto your hat. Take a listen to an

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Speaker 1: Annie McCormick at ABC six. This is wp v I TV.

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Speaker 1: A murder of a man in East Greenwich Township sparked

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Speaker 1: a man hunt, police releasing an all points bulletin Wednesday

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Speaker 1: for this man. Forty seven year old Sean Lannon. The

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Speaker 1: South Jersey victim, whose name was not released by authorities,

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Speaker 1: was discovered murdered in a home on Myrtle Avenue on Monday.

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Speaker 1: Lannon is also tied to the discovery of four dead

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Speaker 1: bodies found last Friday in a vehicle parked at the Albuquerque,

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Speaker 1: New Mexico Airport. One of the victims in that case

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Speaker 1: Lannon's ex wife, Jennifer. Both are New Jersey natives, but

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Speaker 1: lived in Grants, New Mexico, and divorced in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: At least one of the four bodies discovered was a

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Speaker 1: man reported missing, and Jennifer was wanted for questioning in

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Speaker 1: that case. Sean Lannon was awarded soul custody of the

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Speaker 1: couple's children two years ago, but authorities confirmed even though

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Speaker 1: he still has physical custody, the children are safe and

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Speaker 1: not with their father. So now some things are starting

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Speaker 1: to pick together. Straight out to Dale Carson joining US

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Speaker 1: former fed with the FBI and cop author of Arrest

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Speaker 1: Proof Yourself. So Dale, now we're learning from ABC six

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Speaker 1: to abp v I about a dead man in East

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Speaker 1: Greenwich Township that's sparks a man hunt for a guy

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Speaker 1: last name Lannon. Then we pieced together one of the

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Speaker 1: victims in that car in Albuquerque, Lannon's wife, right, That

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Speaker 1: draws the line together for him. So they now know

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Speaker 1: that Lannin is connected with the death in New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: dupre and that is because WOA. Remember, we have to

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Speaker 1: identify which victim we're talking about because there's so many.

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Speaker 1: So cops now think, I think this is what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: Is they suspect Sean Lannon is connected to the body

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Lannon in that car, and if he's connected to her,

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Speaker 1: then he must be connected to the other bodies. They

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Speaker 1: are all connected with Lanning through their past history. They

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Speaker 1: knew Shannon the rather, they knew Lanning when he was gone,

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Speaker 1: and that's where they all met. So the wife, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: she ends up being killed first as I read this,

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Speaker 1: probably shot sometime in January. And then he travels to

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Speaker 1: take his children to Jennifer's parents in New Jersey, I believe, right.

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Speaker 1: And while they are there, there's another murder that occurs

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Speaker 1: that is connected to the mentor for Lannen. Back in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen probably eighties, when Lannon was attending a boys

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Speaker 1: club in New Mexico. Are you talking about Michael Debkowski?

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Speaker 1: I am talking about specifically Michael Dakowski. And Michael Dkowski

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Speaker 1: also mentored Lannon's brother as well, So there's a long

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Speaker 1: term connection. And hold on, hold, hold, say again, let's

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Speaker 1: be very clear. Sean Lannon, we believe murdered his wife,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Lannon in January. Yes, he takes their mutual children

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Speaker 1: across the country from New Mexico to New Jersey to

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Speaker 1: leave the children with family. Right then suddenly another dead body,

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Speaker 1: Michael Debkowski, He's dead. What about the others? To you?

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Speaker 1: Leavi Page shed some light on all these dead bodies.

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Speaker 1: How were they connected to Sean Lannon. So, Jennifer Lannon,

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Speaker 1: Mike Miller, and Justin Motta who were found dead in

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, they were all friends with Jennifer Lannon, Sean

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Speaker 1: Lannon's ex wife, and the other man that was dead,

424
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: Apostolon sixty years old. He was living in that neighborhood

425
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: of New Mexico, and he lived out of his car,

426
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: and he was known to give people rides, do odd jobs,

427
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: help people move anything for extra money when they needed help.

428
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: He was found dead as well. So you're basically telling

429
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: me forty year old Justin and sixty year old apostolon

430
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: or just friends of the wife and they end up

431
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: dead too. Yes, and Mike Miller, Okay, guys, take a

432
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: listen to Annie McCormick ABC six. Lannon is also accused

433
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: of breaking into a building in Monroeville, Elk Township armed

434
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,239
Speaker 1: with a knife earlier this week. He is described as

435
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: ex military with a violent past and a drug problem.

436
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: Police believe he was spotted in Camden on Monday. The

437
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: US Marshall Service put a five thousand dollar reward out

438
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: for information leading to Lannon's arrest, and we don't know

439
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: yet if that five thousand dollar reward was a catalyst

440
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: for information that led to Lannon's arrests. At this time,

441
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: he has not named a suspect. However, he again was

442
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: wanted in connection for questioning of those five murders in

443
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: New Mexico and also here in New Jersey, the US

444
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: Marshal Service offering a five thousand dollars reward, But seemingly

445
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: it gets worse. Here's Gray Hall. ABC six. Prosecutors revealed

446
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: a bombshell against Sean Lennon, the forty seven year old

447
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: man accused of several murders in New Mexico and one

448
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: in East Greenwich, Gloucester County, New Jersey earlier this month.

449
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: They allege he's responsible for even more murders. He had

450
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: admitted to killing a to of sixteen people between New Mexico.

451
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: I'll be at fifteen being in New Mexico and one

452
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: in the state of New Jersey. That victim in New

453
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: Jersey was identified as sixty six year old Michael dev Kowski.

454
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: Albuquerque police say the bodies of Sean's ex wife and

455
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: Jennifer Lennon and three others were found in the pickup

456
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: truck abandoned at an airport. Prosecutors say Lennon admitted the

457
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: crimes to a family member. He told the witness he

458
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: was extremely sorry for all the things he had done,

459
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: extremely sorry for all the things done. Then why didn't

460
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: he turn himself in? And where are we getting sixteen

461
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: dead bodies? Where's that number coming from? Crime Stories with

462
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Well, the man hunt is underway. Take a

463
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: listen now to Sarah Bloomquist, Brian taff Annie McCormick ABC

464
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: six with breaking news this noon. We're just in that

465
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: the multi state manhunt is now over for a man

466
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: wanted the connection with five murders. Minutes ago, we learned

467
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: that federal marshals captured Sean Lannon in Saint Louis, Missouri.

468
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: The forty seven year old was wanted for questioning and

469
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: a Gloucester County murder and four others in New Mexico.

470
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: Action News reporter Annie McCormick is live now outside the

471
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: Prosecutor's office in Woodbury, New Jersey, with these breaking developments. Annie,

472
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: that's right, Sarah. Authorities here releasing that major development and

473
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: what turned into a nationwide manhunt. They're releasing those details.

474
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: Just minutes ago. Sean Lannon is alive and now in

475
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: custody in Missouri. The US Marshal's taking him into custody

476
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: in Saint Louis earlier this morning. Well, they finally find

477
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: this guy in Saint Louis. He has cris crossed the country,

478
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: not unusual for serial killers. And listen to the story

479
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: he tells. Here's Nancy Laughlin, a Koah Jahan. Lannon told

480
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: police he found his wife, Jennifer, in bed with another

481
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: man justin Matta. In the documents, it says he killed

482
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: his wife and put her in a container in their backyard,

483
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: then did the same to Matta, that he lured a

484
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: third man to his home, Matthew Miller, that Lennon dismembered

485
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: Mata and Miller. Earlier this month, police found all three

486
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: victims in a vehicle at the Sunport, along with the

487
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: fourth victim. Investigators say they think three of the four

488
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: were killed in Grants, the fourth and Albuquerque. I don't understand, though,

489
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: Levi Page, even if it's true what he a serial

490
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: killer says, if you want to take that with a

491
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: box assault, that he murdered his wife Jennifer after finding

492
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: her in bed with another man, justin Mata, then why

493
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: would he lure a twenty one year old Matthew Miller

494
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: and kill him. What's the connection? Well, Michael Miller was

495
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: friends with Jennifer Lanna Nancy, and as a motive he

496
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: gave a story that I'm not going to even repeat

497
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: because it was an accusation that he made about the victim.

498
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: The police say there's no evidence. Blame the victim. Blame

499
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: the victim. You know, he led them all using his

500
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: ex wife's cell phone, posing as her to get them

501
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: to the home so he could kill them. That's how

502
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: diabolical he is and how premeditated this was. I mean,

503
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, this guy's smart. He parks the vehicle at

504
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: the top, the very top deck, probably off in the

505
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: corner at an airport where he knows people aren't going

506
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: to come up there unless there's a lot of travel,

507
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: which there would not have been in times of COVID.

508
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: He knows nobody's going to come up there. And then

509
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: he had used her his ex wife's cell phone to

510
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: lure people over. You know, he's he's not dumb, Cheryl.

511
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: And then he's all over the country, Chris crossing, evading cops. Absolutely,

512
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: he's an organized killer, Nancy. So he plans these things,

513
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: which makes it much more difficult to catch him because

514
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: he takes his time to plan how he's going to

515
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: do it and more importantly, how he's going to get away.

516
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: So again the fake IDs, they using the ride share

517
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: at the crisscross of the United States to not having

518
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: a quick automatic link to some of the victims. That

519
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: takes a lot of time for law enforcement. Meanwhile, he's

520
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: still moving, which makes it difficult. You know, when you

521
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: throw out which are all correct, some of his technique.

522
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: Let me say, using the fake IDs, using the ride chair.

523
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: Explain how he exploited those, Cheryl, Well, he would use

524
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, like an uber, but he would give a

525
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: fake name and he would go to another state. We

526
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: still don't know what he did in Virginia. And then

527
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: he would go to another state and use another ID,

528
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: another identity, and he would keep moving. So again, by

529
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: the time law enforce it realize his weight, he was

530
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: just here. We have him on video surveillance and we

531
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: picked him up on a cell phone ping. They're playing

532
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 1: catch up all the time to find out all these

533
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: people that use uber, you know, which one is him?

534
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: And where did he go and what did he do

535
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: when he was there? We still don't know. And with

536
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: like an organized killer, Nancy, there's usually three different scenes

537
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: that you are looking for. You're looking for where he

538
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: apprehended the victim, from where he killed the victim at

539
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: and where he disposed to the victim. And all three

540
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: of these are going to be really important for law

541
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: enforcement to keep tracking down. And you know, to you

542
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: Del Carson, former FBI now at Dell Carson Law dot com. Dell,

543
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 1: it's not like on a Jason Bourne movie. You don't

544
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: just go pull up a secret compartment under your floor

545
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: where you take out all of your fake passports and

546
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: your two hundred thousand dollars and unmarked bills, and all

547
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: of your semi automatic weapons and velcrow them to your

548
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: body under your clothes. This guy had to think it

549
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: all through very carefully, with all these fake IDs and

550
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: the ride chairs and all of the techniques he used

551
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: to avoid police. I mean, he was very cunning down,

552
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: there's no question. And these are the most dangerous of

553
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: killers because they're highly intelligent, they're socially adequate, they can

554
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: move between different social levels with ease. I mean, if

555
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: you look at his photograph, it's perfect. His photograph with

556
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: his deceased wife. He's wearing a trifocal glasses, which is

557
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: an indication of the requirement in his world for precision

558
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: that most people don't have. So this is a guy

559
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: who is dangerous and until he's apprehended and put in custody,

560
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: he's going to continue to kill because he enjoys doing that.

561
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: Killing two. Daisy Castillo, Matthew Miller's aunt, the twenty one

562
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: year old victim in this case. How was Matthew lured

563
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: into this guy's murder web? You know, as far as

564
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: I know, he was friends with the wife, and the

565
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: guy was very jealous. He thought something was going on

566
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: between his wife and Matthew, and he used the wife's

567
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: phone to get to meet him. You know, you're so right.

568
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: I think that's what happened, Doctor Bethany. I think that

569
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: he murders his wife. He gets her cell phone and

570
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: starts using it to lure people over. For instance, if

571
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: you look in my phone, you see John David John David, John, David, Lucy, Lucy, Lucy,

572
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: Jack Jack Jack Jack. Well, Jackie's my producer. But if

573
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: you looked to him, you think, wow, why is she

574
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: calling a guy named Jack so much? Well, it's Jackie

575
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: and it's my producer right here at Fox Nation series

576
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 1: sex Simulae. That's what he did. He gets on her phone,

577
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: he sees these guys she's calling, He sees that she's

578
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: calling friend Matthew Miller, lures him over, probably texted him

579
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: right to kill him, and then makes up a story

580
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: that he's the aggressor. That's right, Nancy. I mean, remember

581
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: this type of serial killer killing is a crime of opportunity.

582
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: Usually the serial killer has a type. It might be

583
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 1: a sex worker. It might be young boys, it might

584
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: be middle aged man. What's interesting about this serial killer.

585
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to have a type. It's his ex wife.

586
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: It's a twenty one year old. But yes, it's all revolved.

587
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: A nucleus of his crimes deals with his x wife.

588
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: But wait a minute, that's not entirely true. Take a

589
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: listen to Nancy lawlin Koat. Authorities in New Jersey have

590
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: also charged him with murder there. They say Landon told

591
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: them he was tied to more than a dozen murders

592
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. I asked the district attorney out of

593
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: grants about that. Today. We don't have any evidence of

594
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: that at all, and to my knowledge, there's no there's

595
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: no missing there's not that many missing person cases and

596
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: grants that would account for that. And that's not to

597
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: say he couldn't have killed him somewhere else, but or

598
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: something from somewhere else, but certainly in grants we don't.

599
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: We don't have any evidence of that many people that

600
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 1: are that have been missing. In court documents filed today,

601
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: a witness told police Landon came to her home smelling

602
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: like bleach, that his hands had cuts and blisters, from cleaning. Now,

603
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: the DA tells me that they're still searching several locations

604
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 1: in the Grants area for forensic evidence. In this case,

605
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: as we know, the victims don't have to be limited

606
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: to one county, Grant County. It doesn't have to be

607
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: that way. These victims are from all over. I mean,

608
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: think about it, Levipage, Crimaline dot Com investigative reporter. This

609
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: guy is criss crossed the country. They've got him in Virginia, Missouri,

610
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: New Mexico, New Jersey. He's everywhere. No telling what bodies

611
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: he left where and your correct Nancy, and when he

612
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: killed Michael Dobkowski sixty six years old, beat him to

613
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: depths with a hammer, took off with his vehicle, his

614
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: murder victims vehicle, went on the run and had the

615
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: murder weapon with him still in the vehicle. And there's

616
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: no telling what sort of crimes he committed along the way.

617
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: Law enforcement still connecting those dys Esicasto, you were telling

618
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: me about your nephew, Matthews, I d and clothing. Yes,

619
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: I know. The guy had got rid of him. He

620
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: put him in a black trash bag along with his clothes,

621
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: his ID, his cell phone, and got rid of him,

622
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: and he didn't have it. He didn't take Matthew's id.

623
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: He You know, Matthew was a type that if you

624
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: call them for a right, he would go away. Jake

625
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: what he needed to go, And I'm thinking maybe that's

626
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: how we'd ordered him. He asked him he was, He

627
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: pretended that he was the ex wife and I asked

628
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: for a right. Could have been that could have been

629
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: the way he lord. We're going to learn a lot

630
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: from all of the cell phone data, so I've no

631
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: doubt in my mind, Cheryl McCallin that there are other victims.

632
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 1: He could be absolutely nacy. But I'll give you one

633
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: thing to think about. When he was captured, he knew

634
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: Dad um well. He was seasy to go to prison

635
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. He's got no cred

636
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: You killed a woman and three men that you believe

637
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: was sleeping with her. That just makes you a punk.

638
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: So he had to come up with a story pretty

639
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: freaking week to give himself some type of credibility before

640
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: they lock him up. We'll say, and you're a big

641
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: time zerio killer with sixteen victims, might just help you out, right,

642
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: just help him out? What about it? Doctor Bastina. I agree.

643
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: When I read the story and I was listening to

644
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCallum, I was thinking, I think this guy's also

645
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: a drama queen. Besides being a serial killer, he's a

646
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: drama queen. And we know with these types of personalities

647
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: and these profiles that they like to be famous or infamous,

648
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: they love to be important. So trumping up the number

649
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: of bodies and how many people they killed, it just

650
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: keeps the whole investigation going. It makes him the center

651
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 1: of attention. It's creating a type of mystique. And you know, look,

652
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 1: maybe he did kill that many people, but he's going

653
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: to make the stories sound a lot more dramatic than

654
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 1: they really aren't. What about it, Del Carson, Well, that's

655
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: him blaming the victims for all of this and why

656
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: they did things wrong. And I absolutely agree. I mean,

657
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: the Bureau back in the eighties interviewed a number of

658
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: serial killer and it wasn't unusual to find that they

659
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: were triggered by a certain action. For example, a guy

660
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: takes a lady to a bar, has dinner with her,

661
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: and she looks at other men, and that's when the

662
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: serial killer decides he's going to kill that person, So

663
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't take much. And certainly his purported involvement or

664
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: his belief that Landon's belief that his wife Jennifer will

665
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: somehow sleeping or involved with other men, is certainly sufficient

666
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: to cause him to want to kill those people. The

667
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 1: catalyst to doctor Michelle Dupree, Doctor Dupre, you've dealt with

668
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: the autopsies of serial killer victims. I find it really

669
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: hard to believe these are all of his victims. Nancy.

670
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: I tend to agree with you. We do know that

671
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: they will not stop until they're caught. And the fact

672
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: that he's confessed to sixteen or save I wonder how

673
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: many more there are that he hasn't told us about.

674
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: To the Castillos and these shots. Our prayers go on

675
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 1: for you, you and the way that Matthew was lured

676
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: into this guy's murder. Webb, we wait as justice unfalls.

677
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: Fancy Grace Crime Story, signing off, Goodbye friend,