1
00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:10,959
Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. It's the Big Take. I'm Westcasova. Today,

2
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court weighs in on student loans. On February

3
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,400
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, the US Supreme Court hears arguments over Joe

4
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,519
Speaker 1: Biden's plan to forgive federal student loan debt for millions

5
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 1: of Americans. It's been on hold since a handful of

6
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 1: Republican led states sued to block it. Supreme Court says

7
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 1: President Biden's student loan debt forgiveness program will remain blocked

8
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,839
Speaker 1: for now, but the justices agreed to hear oral arguments

9
00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,160
Speaker 1: on the case, with the decision expected by June. Those

10
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,520
Speaker 1: arguing against the programs say the president doesn't have the

11
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,080
Speaker 1: power to erase student debt on his own, so the

12
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,400
Speaker 1: Justice's decision in this case is also being closely watched

13
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,880
Speaker 1: as a test of the balance of power between the

14
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,600
Speaker 1: White House and the Congress. Greg Store is Bloomberg Supreme

15
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,920
Speaker 1: Court correspondent. He's here with me now to tell us

16
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,480
Speaker 1: what to look for in this case and how it

17
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:20,959
Speaker 1: might be decided. Greg, why did an appeals court put

18
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 1: this student loan forgiveness plan on hold? Well, it was

19
00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,000
Speaker 1: challenged by a group of Republican led states, and they

20
00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,400
Speaker 1: sought to block the program, saying it was beyond the

21
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 1: president's authority. So when the Eighth Circuit got involved in

22
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,720
Speaker 1: the case, it didn't give a whole lot of explanation

23
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,160
Speaker 1: to answer the question. But it first concluded that the

24
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,320
Speaker 1: states did have the right to challenge the program, and

25
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: then it said, kind of looking at the pros and

26
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: cons of acting right now, the equities as a court

27
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: would say, we think it makes more sense to block

28
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,160
Speaker 1: the program while the litigation goes forward. So they're claiming

29
00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,920
Speaker 1: that Biden overstepped his powers as president and by doing this,

30
00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,559
Speaker 1: what is the basis of that argument. Yeah, So there's

31
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 1: a law that's known as the Heroes Act, and what

32
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,000
Speaker 1: it says is that the Secretary of Education can wave

33
00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,720
Speaker 1: or modify some provisions of student loan requirements in the

34
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,560
Speaker 1: case of a national emergency. And so the administration says,

35
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,600
Speaker 1: that's what we're doing here. We're forgiving these loans because

36
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 1: the national emergency of the pandemic is still having a

37
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,160
Speaker 1: financial impact on borrowers, and we're targeting the borrowers are

38
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 1: going to be hurt the most by it. And so

39
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,239
Speaker 1: the kind of the fundamental question in the case is

40
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: that a fair reading of the Heroes Act. So the

41
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,960
Speaker 1: idea is that they're arguing that Joe Biden is using

42
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 1: the pandemic as a convenient excuse to sort of hitch

43
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: a ride on for this program, but he wanted to

44
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,720
Speaker 1: do it anyway, so it wasn't really the pandemic that

45
00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 1: was the reason he did it. Yeah, that's exactly right.

46
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,240
Speaker 1: They even say in their briefs that basically he's fulfilling

47
00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 1: a campaign promise by doing this. They also talk about

48
00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,560
Speaker 1: the cost of the program. So the Congressional Budget Office

49
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,560
Speaker 1: has said this is going to cost four hundred billion dollars.

50
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 1: And what the states say is Congress would not have

51
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 1: wanted to give the president that much authority to do

52
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 1: something that's sweeping without being more clear about it. So

53
00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,679
Speaker 1: these are states bringing this case arguing that the president

54
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,200
Speaker 1: can't do this because Congress says, so, why do the

55
00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,880
Speaker 1: states have standing to bring this case? Yeah, that is

56
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,840
Speaker 1: a really important question that may ultimately be how the

57
00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:35,160
Speaker 1: case is decided. The Biden administration says they do not

58
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 1: have standing, and you should even get to that question

59
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,840
Speaker 1: about whether the president has the authority the states arguments

60
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 1: have sort of multifacets to them. But what the Eighth

61
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 1: Circuit focused on was there is a servicer, a loan

62
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: servicer in Missouri that is created as a separate legal entity,

63
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 1: but it has some obligations to the Missouri treasury. It's

64
00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 1: supposed to put money in there to help pay for

65
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,360
Speaker 1: education projects. And the state says that servicer is going

66
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,240
Speaker 1: to lose some money because some loans it was servicing

67
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,920
Speaker 1: and getting fees on will evaporate. And so that's the

68
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 1: financial hit that the states say. They are feeling that

69
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,840
Speaker 1: Missouri is going to potentially get less money in its

70
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,680
Speaker 1: treasury because this entity known as Mohila is getting less

71
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,920
Speaker 1: money for servicing student loans. So the Eighth Circuit Court

72
00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: of Appeals heard this and they said, yeah, that's at

73
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,359
Speaker 1: least reasonable enough that we're going to suspend it until

74
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,360
Speaker 1: it goes to the Supreme Court. Yes, that's exactly right.

75
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,119
Speaker 1: There is also a separate case. The Supreme Court actually

76
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 1: has two cases. There's another one involving two borrowers, but

77
00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,840
Speaker 1: most of the legal experts I've talked to think that

78
00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,960
Speaker 1: the state case is the one that's probably the main

79
00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,640
Speaker 1: event that the states have the stronger argument on standing.

80
00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,120
Speaker 1: Given what we know now about the makeup of the

81
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,320
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, which has seen new members come on in

82
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,280
Speaker 1: the last few years, is there any indication about how

83
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: they'll consider this case and how they might rule. Well,

84
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,040
Speaker 1: let me give you a two part answer to that.

85
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 1: The easier part is if the Court says finds that

86
00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,719
Speaker 1: they're standing and gets to that question of does the

87
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,800
Speaker 1: president have this authority? That is very likely to be

88
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,200
Speaker 1: a conservative versus liberal fight. That is a case where

89
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,600
Speaker 1: the conservative justices have said, we want to see explicit

90
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,280
Speaker 1: authorization before the executive branch can do something so big

91
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 1: that the Congress would have to approve it exactly. And here,

92
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: when we're talking about language that I would imagine some

93
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 1: are all the conservative justices would say is pretty vague.

94
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,840
Speaker 1: One would have to expect that they will be skeptical

95
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 1: of the idea that the president could jump in and say, Aha,

96
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,039
Speaker 1: I've got the authority to wipe out four hundred billion

97
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,559
Speaker 1: dollars in student loans. The standing question is a little

98
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 1: more complicated. That is probably where if the administration is

99
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,360
Speaker 1: going to win this case, if it's going to pick

100
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,840
Speaker 1: off some of the conservative justices, that that's where they

101
00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,720
Speaker 1: would do it. And I say that in part because

102
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,400
Speaker 1: this is a matter where us you know, justice like

103
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,039
Speaker 1: John Roberts may be skeptical the idea that the court

104
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,160
Speaker 1: system should be getting involved in this sort of a fight.

105
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,839
Speaker 1: He may be receptive to the idea that everything doesn't

106
00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,080
Speaker 1: necessarily belong in federal court. And in this case where

107
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,279
Speaker 1: the effect on the state treasury is pretty tangental and

108
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,040
Speaker 1: pretty you know, down the road and kind of depends

109
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 1: on how this agency in Missouri deals with its finances,

110
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,279
Speaker 1: somebody like him, and maybe a few other conservative justices

111
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,680
Speaker 1: might be skeptical that the court should get involved. In

112
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,400
Speaker 1: a lot of your stories over the years writing about

113
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,240
Speaker 1: cases sometimes comes down to this idea of will the

114
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 1: court choose to take a narrow interpretation are you a procedure,

115
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 1: or will they use a case to really make a

116
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,840
Speaker 1: big statement about larger things. Is that what we're talking

117
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,119
Speaker 1: about here? I think they could if they want to

118
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 1: use this case, they could focus on the narrow provisions

119
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,440
Speaker 1: but also make a broader statement. So there is this

120
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,040
Speaker 1: legal doctrine that we saw come up in the court's

121
00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 1: last term in a case involving climate change, which we

122
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 1: can talk about called the Major Questions doctrine, And the

123
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 1: Supreme Court said in that case that if it's a

124
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 1: major question and an administration is saying we've got the

125
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 1: authority to do something, if it's going to have a

126
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 1: huge economic impact, we want to see Congress say explicitly

127
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,560
Speaker 1: you can do that. So if they take this case

128
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,320
Speaker 1: as an opportunity to sort of expand on that, really

129
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 1: say here's what the Major Questions doctrine means, you could

130
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,440
Speaker 1: see that having a lot of impact on other areas

131
00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 1: as well. Where exactly did the Major Questions doctrine come from?

132
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,440
Speaker 1: Who made it? That is a good question. I could

133
00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: say that it came from the courts. They sort of

134
00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 1: made it up. But what exactly it is a subject

135
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,320
Speaker 1: of some debate even among the justices. Some of them

136
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,559
Speaker 1: seem to think what it is is just a little

137
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,240
Speaker 1: tool that helps us interpret ambiguous language, that if we're

138
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,280
Speaker 1: not sure what something means, we're not going to assume

139
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,280
Speaker 1: it means something major unless it's really clear, And some

140
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 1: of them think it's actually this really really big, important

141
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:26,160
Speaker 1: separation of power's principle that the administration, the president does

142
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 1: not have the constitutional authority to do some things unless

143
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 1: it's been clearly authorized by Congress. And you see both

144
00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 1: of those kind of ways of thinking about the doctrine

145
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,160
Speaker 1: sort of intersect as the Court deals with it in

146
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,600
Speaker 1: the context of particular cases. So do you actually invoke

147
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,160
Speaker 1: it we hereby invoke the major questions doctrine or where

148
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 1: does it come from? In the Environmental Protection Act case

149
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,200
Speaker 1: that was about whether the EPA could impose restrictions on

150
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: coal flat fired power plants, and these are restrictions that

151
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 1: would have a very big economic effect or could have

152
00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,040
Speaker 1: a very big economic effect, And the Supreme Court in

153
00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,559
Speaker 1: that case said, the impact is so potentially great that

154
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,760
Speaker 1: we're looking at this language here authorizing the EPA to

155
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,559
Speaker 1: do certain things, and we're not going to read that

156
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,840
Speaker 1: language in a way that lets them do this much.

157
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 1: If Congress wants to let the EPA do this, it

158
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 1: needs to be more explicit. And so now we're going

159
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 1: to see whether that discussion, which was labeled the Major

160
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 1: Questions doctrine, plays out in this different context. It seems

161
00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 1: like there really are two roads they could take. One

162
00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,120
Speaker 1: is really picky letter of the law, do the states

163
00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,320
Speaker 1: have the standing to even bring this case? And another

164
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,560
Speaker 1: one that could have pretty far reaching effects beyond student

165
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 1: loans into all sorts of other things having to do

166
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,040
Speaker 1: with how much power the president has, how much power

167
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,240
Speaker 1: the Congress has. I think that that's right, although I

168
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't the standing issue quite so much, perhaps because let's

169
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,600
Speaker 1: say they say, no, the states don't have standing, and

170
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,760
Speaker 1: let's say, let's just imagine that the justices are thinking,

171
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,680
Speaker 1: but if they did, I would rule against the administration.

172
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,960
Speaker 1: Then we've set up this world where an administration can

173
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,720
Speaker 1: put a policy in place, and it may be that

174
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,360
Speaker 1: nobody can challenge it, even though it goes beyond the

175
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 1: president's authority. So that is kind of a big picture

176
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,680
Speaker 1: implication that I would imagine is going to be on

177
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 1: the minds of the justices as they consider that standing argument.

178
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,480
Speaker 1: Is there a third option? You know, we have the

179
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,079
Speaker 1: standing argument, we have the major questions doctrine. Is there

180
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,080
Speaker 1: another way that this could go? That's unexpected, not that

181
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of cases do have that sort

182
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 1: of off ramp where the court kind of adduct the

183
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,920
Speaker 1: big question because it can decide on a smaller one.

184
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I see that here. This is really

185
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,080
Speaker 1: a case that is very likely, almost certainly going to

186
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,319
Speaker 1: determine whether Joe Biden can forgive these loans, whether his

187
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 1: administration can forgive these loans, are or not? Greg, please

188
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:10,840
Speaker 1: stay seated. We'll keep talking after the break. Greg, A

189
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,000
Speaker 1: lot of the times we see these big decisions in

190
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 1: June is that when you think we can expect this

191
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,720
Speaker 1: one to be handed down by the court, I would

192
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,960
Speaker 1: think so, and I the only reason I'm hedging a

193
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,080
Speaker 1: little bit is this is one of those cases that's

194
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 1: been expedited to some degree, and so we could see

195
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,200
Speaker 1: the Court decide that we need to give a faster

196
00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,840
Speaker 1: action because right now the administration's policy is on hold.

197
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 1: The administration is saying we kind of urgently need this

198
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,520
Speaker 1: relief so people can go about planning their lives, and

199
00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,720
Speaker 1: the Court might be sensitive to that and think we

200
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,319
Speaker 1: want to give them an answer as quickly as we can. Greg,

201
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 1: I'll ask you an unfair question, how do you think

202
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,800
Speaker 1: the court will decide this case when you have a

203
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,360
Speaker 1: six three majority. The safe bet is usually to say

204
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 1: that the Conservatives are likely to win, given this court's

205
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:02,840
Speaker 1: record on the major Questions doctrine, given their clear skepticism

206
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 1: of an administration that takes a little statutory provision in

207
00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 1: says we have this broad power. If you remember a

208
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,319
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, there was a fight over the

209
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,560
Speaker 1: administration rule that would have required workers, some tens of

210
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 1: millions of workers to either get vaccines or get frequent tests,

211
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,680
Speaker 1: and the Supreme Court said, know, that goes beyond the

212
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,520
Speaker 1: power to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. You can't

213
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,120
Speaker 1: do that. That's all part of this kind of we're

214
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 1: not going to let the administration have this broad power

215
00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 1: unless Congress is more explicitly said you can do something

216
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,080
Speaker 1: even beyond that case. This is a court that has

217
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,360
Speaker 1: shown a lot of skepticism towards any entity, whether it's

218
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 1: the administration or a state saying because of the pandemic,

219
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,000
Speaker 1: we get to impose these special rules. And we saw

220
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,560
Speaker 1: it when they were talking about, you know, restrictions on

221
00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 1: capacity in churches and a like during the pandemic exactly. So,

222
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,320
Speaker 1: in other words, just like the student loan case, now

223
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 1: they said, obviously you can't use the pandemic as an

224
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 1: excuse to do something you wanted to do anyway. Yeah, yeah,

225
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,320
Speaker 1: that's exactly it. So those are two more currents that

226
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,960
Speaker 1: are going to be coming against the administration as it

227
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,280
Speaker 1: goes to the Supreme Court. Greg start, thanks for talking

228
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:19,400
Speaker 1: with me today. Sure thing. Now, let's take a look

229
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,240
Speaker 1: at what will happen if the Supreme Court rules for

230
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,880
Speaker 1: or against forgiving student loans. Claire Valentine joins me now

231
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,320
Speaker 1: from New York. She covers personal finance and she's been

232
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,040
Speaker 1: following this stories ups and downs. Claire, can you start

233
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 1: by giving us an idea of how many Americans would

234
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 1: benefit from this student loan debt plan if the Supreme

235
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 1: Court allows it to go through. More than forty million

236
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:50,160
Speaker 1: Americans could potentially benefit from this through the relief through

237
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 1: the forgiveness of up to twenty thousand dollars. What are

238
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 1: the terms of the Biden plan? How much are people

239
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,440
Speaker 1: able to forgive? And who's for it? Right? So, Biden

240
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,880
Speaker 1: first announced this plan back in August, and when he

241
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,199
Speaker 1: laid it out then the terms were that borrowers were

242
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 1: eligible for ten thousand dollars in relief or twenty thousand

243
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 1: for pell grant recipients granted that they make under one

244
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year or two

245
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollars for married couples. And so

246
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 1: how does it work. They just have to apply for

247
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,400
Speaker 1: this relief. Yeah, in certain cases, the administration already has

248
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 1: their information, but the vast majority of people have to

249
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 1: submit an application. About twenty six million people had already

250
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 1: applied for this before the Supreme Court took up the case.

251
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,400
Speaker 1: It's sort of been frozen since then as we wait

252
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 1: to find out what happens with the court arguments. Our

253
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 1: producer Moe Barrow here in Washington, DC, asked people how

254
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 1: they feel about Biden's loan forgiveness program. Here's what they

255
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 1: had to say. Student loan reform program that Biden is

256
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,840
Speaker 1: proposing to reform. I'm in favor of it. I think

257
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,320
Speaker 1: it's an opportunity to put folks back on a level

258
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,880
Speaker 1: playing field. We have found that student debt has been,

259
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,320
Speaker 1: you know, debilitating for folks, So for giving opportunities to

260
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,680
Speaker 1: people to pursue their careers and build wealth for themselves

261
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 1: and for their generations after them is definitely welcomed. One

262
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 1: of the things it's always struck me about student loans

263
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,120
Speaker 1: in the current periods. When I was in school, my

264
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,960
Speaker 1: student loans were subsidized by the State of New York,

265
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 1: so I never paid market rates on my student loans.

266
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,920
Speaker 1: The idea that over the last twenty years people have

267
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,120
Speaker 1: been making tons of money offer student loans has always

268
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,600
Speaker 1: been appalling to me. Yeah, I can see why some

269
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 1: people feel that, hey, I paid my loan myself, somebody

270
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,640
Speaker 1: else is getting paid off. I know people get really

271
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,400
Speaker 1: worked up about it. But here's the thing, Like, you know,

272
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: look at the PPP loans. Look at the loan forgiveness

273
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 1: that they given to the large corporations, large companies. I mean,

274
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 1: I know people individually who've gotten almost like a million

275
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: dollars worth the loans forgiven. I think, you know, if

276
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,640
Speaker 1: you compare both, it's not that big of a deal.

277
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 1: And this is different from the student loan freeze that's

278
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 1: been in place since the pandemic. Is that right? Yeah,

279
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 1: so the freeze has been in place since March twenty twenty.

280
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,800
Speaker 1: It's been extended many times each time sort of under

281
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 1: the rationale that people were struggling, people needed more time

282
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 1: to get their finances in order after the hit of

283
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 1: the pandemic. It depends on sort of when the Supreme

284
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,080
Speaker 1: Court case is finished and what they say, but one

285
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 1: way or another, payments are going to restart sometime this summer,

286
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: and when that happens, people will suddenly be getting these

287
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 1: monthly bills again that are required for them to pay.

288
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 1: And you write that if this happens, if people are

289
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 1: going to be required to pay, this would have a

290
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,640
Speaker 1: pretty big effect, and not just individuals but the economy. Yeah.

291
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 1: So this has always sort of been the case, but

292
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 1: I think now more than ever, people are struggling to

293
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 1: afford their student loan bills. We see that with people

294
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,120
Speaker 1: who have private student loans who are still paying them

295
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 1: because they haven't been frozen. And then just even people

296
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,920
Speaker 1: sort of gauging how much they would have to pay

297
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,399
Speaker 1: when payments restart. They're crunching those numbers and they're seeing

298
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 1: with the cost of housing and with everyday goods, given

299
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,920
Speaker 1: inflation figures, the math just isn't working for a lot

300
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 1: of people. There's not going to be enough to pay

301
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,440
Speaker 1: all their bills. How much is a student loan bill

302
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 1: for an average American? So the average American at least

303
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 1: before the pandemic pause, was paying over three hundred dollars

304
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: a month in student loans. The exact number is three

305
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 1: hundred and ninety three dollars each month, according to the

306
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,720
Speaker 1: Federal reserve, and surveys along the way since this pandemic

307
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 1: freeze have shown that Americans are going to struggle when

308
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,520
Speaker 1: this happens. One study from the Student Debt Crisis Center

309
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 1: found that almost nine and ten borrowers are worried about

310
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 1: affording payments when they restart because of inflation, and people

311
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 1: are sort of having to make decisions for their lives

312
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,200
Speaker 1: based on this. I talked to a woman who told

313
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,159
Speaker 1: me that she is taking a second job because she

314
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 1: knows these payments are going to restart and she's going

315
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,679
Speaker 1: to struggle to afford it. So I can hear in

316
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,440
Speaker 1: my head some older Americans, maybe some younger Americans who

317
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 1: either didn't take out loans or who have already repaid

318
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: their loans, saying, well, yes, that of course will be

319
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,880
Speaker 1: a hardship. But why should the government forgive all these

320
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,680
Speaker 1: loans they knew they were going to have to repay them.

321
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 1: Why is it the responsibility of everybody else to repay

322
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,600
Speaker 1: their loans just because it's a burden to them. Yeah,

323
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 1: So it's a good point, and I think a lot

324
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,160
Speaker 1: of people do take that standpoint. People on the other

325
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 1: side would say that the prices of college tuition have

326
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,679
Speaker 1: risen in many cases. The cost of college education now

327
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,680
Speaker 1: is two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which is unbelievable

328
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 1: compared to what it used to be, so people have

329
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 1: a lot more debt. What we've also seen is because

330
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,400
Speaker 1: people are going to grad school to have an edge

331
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 1: in the labor market, they're accruing a lot more debt

332
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 1: because of that as well. And then you're also seeing,

333
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: just from an economic standpoint, people struggling to afford their bills.

334
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 1: That's bad for the economy. If people aren't spending money

335
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 1: on goods. We know the American economy is really driven

336
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: by the consumer, and if they can't get out and

337
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 1: spend like that, that's bad news for the economy as

338
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 1: a whole. Please stick around. Our conversation continues after the break. Claire,

339
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: another argument I've heard is that when you take on

340
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 1: loan debt, we're gonna go to college. The assumption is

341
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 1: you're going to make more money as a result of

342
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 1: your college degree. But in fact, in recent years, wages

343
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,760
Speaker 1: even for college graduates, have not kept up with inflation,

344
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: and so therefore that kind of basic assumption has fallen

345
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 1: short for a lot of people who took out big

346
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 1: loans assuming they'd be able to pay them back. Definitely.

347
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: I think that's right. On the money, is that with

348
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 1: inflation happening and wages sort of stagnating, in many cases,

349
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: people aren't reaping that return on their investment. And we're

350
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: seeing that, especially in younger generations. Less people are going

351
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,880
Speaker 1: to college now because they've seen sort of this play out.

352
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 1: They've seen other people with student loans taking them out

353
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: and not making the money to make that decision worth

354
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 1: it and choosing alternative paths. One thing you right, is

355
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: the larger economic effects of people being unable to repay

356
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 1: their loans is that you expect an increase in other

357
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 1: kinds of defaults on credit cards and other sorts of things.

358
00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:00,239
Speaker 1: Exactly how do economists think this ripple effect might play out? Yeah, so,

359
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 1: I think the basic way it works is that when

360
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: people are hit with say another four hundred dollar bill

361
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 1: each month, the math just doesn't all add up. They're

362
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: forced to sort of make choices on what bills they're

363
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: going to pay. We know that a lot of people

364
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: who have auto loans sort of prioritize that payment because

365
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 1: they need to get around, but that's not always the case.

366
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 1: You know, if they can't make the math work, they're

367
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: going to choose one area to not pay, whether that's

368
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 1: credit cards and so you see that big interest rate

369
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 1: affect them, or whether that's auto loans and more. Delinquencies

370
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: sort of ripple through the different consumer categories. Because of that,

371
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 1: My study from the Federal Reserve recently found that the

372
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: number of people who could be delinquent on their student

373
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: loan payments when they restart could potentially surpass the fifteen

374
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: percent that were before the pandemic. That's pretty striking, just

375
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 1: the fact that so many people wouldn't be able to

376
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 1: pay and that we would see such a jump immediately,

377
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: especially when the whole purpose of the student loan pause

378
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: was to help people get themselves in better financial situations

379
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: to be able to actually afford the payments. And if

380
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: the plan is allowed to go forward, for a lot

381
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: of people, the loan forgiveness wouldn't actually erase all of

382
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: their deba just a portion of it. Correct. Yeah, While

383
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,360
Speaker 1: you know, there are many people that have loan balances

384
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: below ten thousand dollars, many many more have balances that

385
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: are you know, eighty thousand, one hundred thousand and so

386
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, while the ten thousand dollars relief would help

387
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: a lot, it's by no means of magic bullets that

388
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: just erases everything, Claire. If the plan is allowed to

389
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: go through, and I think there's a lot of skepticism

390
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: that the court will uphold it, but if it does,

391
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 1: what does it mean for student loans? Does it just

392
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 1: sort of reset the clock and then you have a

393
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: whole new generation of students taking out loans and they

394
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: have to pay them back or does that then set

395
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: up a thing where people start expecting, at one point

396
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: or another, the government's going to come in and pay

397
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: their loans, so there's a disincentive to actually pay them.

398
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: What a lot of advocates and activists that I talked

399
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 1: to say is that this forgiveness plan, it's sort of

400
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 1: a band aid on the issue, and the issue is

401
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 1: the rising cost of a college education and the amount

402
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: of loans that is required for that. One thing that

403
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: the Biden administration is also looking into is a new

404
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: income driven repayment plan that would potentially help borrowers even more,

405
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: especially those that have more than ten thousand dollars in

406
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: student debt. And so that role would cap borrowers monthly

407
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: payment at five percent of their monthly discretionary income. That's

408
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: down from ten percent currently, And the government would also

409
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 1: forgive balances of twelve thousand dollars or less after a

410
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: borrower has made ten years of payments, down from twenty

411
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: years right now. So, you know, while I think the

412
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: main issue is how expensive it is to go to college,

413
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 1: some of these reforms, like the income driven Repayment plan

414
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: could actually long term help barrows a lot more than

415
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: just this one time forgiveness. As you said, all of

416
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: this kind of points for the need for some kind

417
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: of reform both of the costa college education, how people

418
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: pay those costs. How do you think that student loans

419
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: are going to play out in the future now that

420
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: everyone knows that they cost a whole lot of money

421
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: and you may not be able to pay them back.

422
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: I think one at least short term effect that you're

423
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: going to see is fewer people taking out student loans,

424
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: fewer people deciding to go to college, just realizing that

425
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 1: that investment is not worth it. I think that especially

426
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: with this potential income driven repayment plan that could be

427
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: helpful that could also be hit with legal challenges with

428
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: this court case kind of as a starting point, We're

429
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: going to see a lot of debate over what the

430
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: executive branch has the power to do in terms of

431
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: helping student loans. It's a really complicated question, and I

432
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: think all of these sort of reforms are based off that.

433
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 1: There are a lot of ideas that are thrown around

434
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: of what Biden could do to help students. Some people say,

435
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: you know what if federal student loans had a zero

436
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: percent interest rate, that could actually help a lot more.

437
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: It's an idea turn around. We know how these take

438
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: a while to you know, actually get into place, let

439
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: alone to be allowed to happen. But I think it's

440
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: something that our lawmakers and Americans in general are dealing

441
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: with this. So many people have student loans, So you know,

442
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: we're going to see ideas that are playing out and

443
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: you know, attempts to alleviate this. Whether or not they

444
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: actually go through as an open question. Claire Valentine, thanks

445
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: for being here, Thanks for having me, Thanks for listening

446
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: to us here at the Big Take. It's a daily

447
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio,

448
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen,

449
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear from you. Email us questions

450
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The

451
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: supervising producer of the Big Take is Vicki Burgolina. Our

452
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producers are Moe Barrow

453
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: and Michael Fallero. Raphael I'm Seely is our engineer. Our

454
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: original music was composed by Leo Sidrin I'm west Kasova.

455
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: We'll be back on Monday with another Big Take. Have

456
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: a great weekend.