WEBVTT - Ep. 08: Beyond the Earth’s Curve, Mysteries

0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.520
<v Speaker 1>Following the Louisiana Purchase, American traders to the tribes on

0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:10.719
<v Speaker 1>the Red River inadvertently resolved centuries of precious metal stories

0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.080
<v Speaker 1>in the Southwest, but their discovery turned out to be

0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:18.079
<v Speaker 1>more a boon to global science than an avenue to

0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.520
<v Speaker 1>personal wealth. I'm Dan Flores, and this is the American West,

0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.920
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Velvet Buck. Still in barrel, Velvet

0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Buck arrives this summer just in time for the season

0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:32.120
<v Speaker 1>that calls us home.

0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:33.440
<v Speaker 2>A portion of.

0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:38.120
<v Speaker 1>Every bottle supports backcountry hunters and anglers to protect public lands,

0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:57.680
<v Speaker 1>waters and wildlife, enjoy responsibly beyond the Earth's curve mysteries.

0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.800
<v Speaker 1>Sometime in the century we're in, maybe even by twenty fifty,

0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.759
<v Speaker 1>a nation or one of our proliferating private space companies

0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.400
<v Speaker 1>will fly a drone through the Valumeronaris Canyon on Mars.

0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.840
<v Speaker 1>Right now, America's NASA is in the lead for that honor,

0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.720
<v Speaker 1>having successfully put a drone in the air on Mars

0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.440
<v Speaker 1>and planning to fly one called Dragonfly on a future

0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:35.240
<v Speaker 1>mission to Saturn's moon Titan. But whoever explores the Valumeronneris

0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.399
<v Speaker 1>will have a chance to resolve all kinds of mysteries

0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.959
<v Speaker 1>about the biggest red rock fissure in our Solar system,

0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.720
<v Speaker 1>A gorge that both resembles the West's biggest, the Grand Canyon,

0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:51.680
<v Speaker 1>but absolutely dwarfs that Arizona Marble in every particular measurement.

0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Literally an other worldly desert landscape, the Valu Marionnaris truly

0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.640
<v Speaker 1>is west of everything. Also a good modern stand in

0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.960
<v Speaker 1>to help understand the way many explorers and map makers

0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.600
<v Speaker 1>thought about the American West two hundred years ago.

0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:09.320
<v Speaker 2>What's out there?

0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.920
<v Speaker 1>How will we feel in the close presence of a mystery?

0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.280
<v Speaker 1>In Mars's case, what kind of emotional reaction will we

0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.320
<v Speaker 1>experience watching video footage from a drone flying through a

0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:26.120
<v Speaker 1>world of soaring red spires and cliffs on an astounding scale?

0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.639
<v Speaker 1>Is it possible the planet is so small its horizons

0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.839
<v Speaker 1>will obscure the opposing canyon walls one from the other,

0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:38.520
<v Speaker 1>even in a gorge twenty five thousand feet deep? Was

0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.720
<v Speaker 1>that canyon formed by the biggest flood in Solar System history?

0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.639
<v Speaker 2>Was their life there then? Is their life there now?

0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.480
<v Speaker 1>In the case of the West, in the early eighteen hundreds,

0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:56.240
<v Speaker 1>the world was equally uninformed. Could rumors of mountains of

0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.600
<v Speaker 1>pure salt in the west be believed. Was there really

0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.280
<v Speaker 1>a single mountain from which waters flowed to the Pacific,

0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.280
<v Speaker 1>the Arctic, the Gulf. Were native people in the West

0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.840
<v Speaker 1>descendants of the lost tribes of Israel? Or did some

0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:16.480
<v Speaker 1>possibly migrate from Wales where their elephants unicorns are dragging

0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:21.120
<v Speaker 1>like water serpents. There did masses of precious metals lurk

0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.400
<v Speaker 1>hidden in the mountains or even lie about on the prairie,

0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.320
<v Speaker 1>waiting for the ambitious or the lucky to cash in

0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.519
<v Speaker 1>beyond all their dreams. At the beginning of the nineteenth century,

0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:36.080
<v Speaker 1>these were all possibilities in the West, which was real

0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.960
<v Speaker 1>because humans evolved to be curious and to be travelers. Eventually,

0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.920
<v Speaker 1>we'll answer our questions about Mars. We certainly answered all

0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.520
<v Speaker 1>the ones I just posed about the American West, But

0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.680
<v Speaker 1>there's one I wanted to address here more. Particularly, this

0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:05.520
<v Speaker 1>mystery spond several frontier generations to imagine easy, unfathomable riches

0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.920
<v Speaker 1>in the Southwest, aiding a widespread image of America as

0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.400
<v Speaker 1>a kind of Eden of infinite resources, an idea that

0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.159
<v Speaker 1>some still hold. It's a story that evokes everything that

0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.440
<v Speaker 1>excites us about venturing into new worlds and finding things

0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:28.800
<v Speaker 1>we absolutely never expected. In the same decades when fascinated

0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Americans were hearing about a mysterious Western region associated with

0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.600
<v Speaker 1>early mountain maned John Coulter, a place where mud pots

0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:42.120
<v Speaker 1>bubbled and scalding water spewed, or were absorbing the story

0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:46.039
<v Speaker 1>of Hue Glasses mauling by a giant bear down on

0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.719
<v Speaker 1>the southwestern frontier, there was another story remarkable enough to

0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:55.080
<v Speaker 1>rival those. In the years between eighteen ten and eighteen

0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:59.120
<v Speaker 1>thirty five, versions of it circulated through the saloons of

0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.920
<v Speaker 1>towns like Natchez, New Orleans, and Nacotish in Louisiana, and

0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:10.320
<v Speaker 1>San Antonio and Austin in Texas. Culture's hell became Yellowstone Park,

0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:14.000
<v Speaker 1>of course, and the Hugh Glass story would morph into

0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:18.799
<v Speaker 1>a modern movie called The Revenant. On the Southwestern Frontier,

0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:24.080
<v Speaker 1>the story I'm about to tell, though, eventually faded away. Ultimately,

0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:28.120
<v Speaker 1>an Eastern scientist put together what had generated such excitement

0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.800
<v Speaker 1>in the early eighteen hundreds, but in the West, by

0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:39.320
<v Speaker 1>then the story was almost forgotten. John Coulture and Hugh Glass,

0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.080
<v Speaker 1>like so many other Americans heading into the West, launched

0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.400
<v Speaker 1>from Saint Louis and traveled up the Missouri River. The

0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.719
<v Speaker 1>counterpart to Saint Louis on the southern plains was the

0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:55.960
<v Speaker 1>old French city of Nacotish in Louisiana, founded in seventeen

0:05:56.080 --> 0:06:00.520
<v Speaker 1>fourteen and the last outposts of supply on the River,

0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.640
<v Speaker 1>a watercourse that penetrated into the west towards the Rocky

0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:10.000
<v Speaker 1>mountains and far distant Santa Fe. For decades, French traders

0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.880
<v Speaker 1>had followed the Red to reach the Wichita villages several

0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.600
<v Speaker 1>hundred miles up river. Like the Mandans and the Aricaras

0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.680
<v Speaker 1>on the Missouri, the Wichitas had built fixed towns as

0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.560
<v Speaker 1>far up the Red as farming was possible. Catto and

0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.200
<v Speaker 1>speakers related to the Pawnees and sometimes called by that name,

0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.960
<v Speaker 1>The Wichitas freely welcomed traders and explorers, as did the

0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:40.000
<v Speaker 1>nomadic Comanchee bands in the prairies around them. Now, with

0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.240
<v Speaker 1>the Louisiana purchase, Americans had taken over possession of the

0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.719
<v Speaker 1>lower Red used to manipulating the Spanish and French against

0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:53.240
<v Speaker 1>one another for Indian affections. The Southern Plains tribes were

0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:58.479
<v Speaker 1>intrigued by this new player on the scene. As I

0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.240
<v Speaker 1>described in the last episode of the American West. Thomas

0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.599
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson's eighteen oh six attempt to send a Lewis and

0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.160
<v Speaker 1>Clark type exploration up the Red River had been cut

0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:14.800
<v Speaker 1>short by a Spanish force. Simultaneously with that confrontation, words

0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:19.480
<v Speaker 1>spread on the frontier that Aaron Burr, Jefferson's vice president,

0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.720
<v Speaker 1>who had just killed his rival Alexander Hamilton in a duel,

0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.520
<v Speaker 1>was fleeing the US to the southwest, ostensibly to launch

0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:34.360
<v Speaker 1>an American style revolution against the Spanish monarchy. With these provocations,

0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.960
<v Speaker 1>for several weeks in the winter of eighteen o six

0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:41.160
<v Speaker 1>and seven, Spanish and American armies actually circled one another

0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.560
<v Speaker 1>west of Nacolush in a game of bluff that never

0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:49.400
<v Speaker 1>got called. When tensions finally relaxed, Spanish officials in the

0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.760
<v Speaker 1>colonies of Texas and New Mexico decided that in the

0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:57.240
<v Speaker 1>future it would be good to avoid any noisy disturbances

0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:01.440
<v Speaker 1>with the Americans. As they put it, that decision allowed

0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:08.560
<v Speaker 1>American traders more freedom to penetrate the planes. By the

0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.480
<v Speaker 1>first decade of the eighteen hundreds, the American foot was

0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.080
<v Speaker 1>in the door to the southwest, and it was still pushing,

0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.560
<v Speaker 1>led by their point man in Nacodish doctor John Sibley,

0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.240
<v Speaker 1>a new Englander. President Jefferson appointed Indian agent for the

0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.119
<v Speaker 1>region in eighteen oh five. The Americans had a new plan.

0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:33.280
<v Speaker 1>If government expeditions to the west aroused Spanish suspicions, why

0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.280
<v Speaker 1>not invite potential Indian allies and trade partners like the

0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Wichitas and Comanches to come to Nakotish instead. Sibley's invitation

0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:47.160
<v Speaker 1>produced two great councils in Nacodish with the tribes of

0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.120
<v Speaker 1>the Southern Plains in the year eighteen oh seven, feasts

0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.559
<v Speaker 1>and gift giving kept by forty seven year old Sibley,

0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:58.880
<v Speaker 1>wrapping himself in an American flag before the assembled throng,

0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.520
<v Speaker 1>then wrap the same flag around high ranking warriors from

0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:04.600
<v Speaker 1>the western tribes.

0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.359
<v Speaker 2>Sibley told the tribes.

0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:11.040
<v Speaker 1>That the Americans were natives of the same land you are,

0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:15.840
<v Speaker 1>in other words, white Indians. For their part, the Comanches

0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.320
<v Speaker 1>claim they had so much wealth in the form of

0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:22.160
<v Speaker 1>horses and mules that the animals were to them like grass.

0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.840
<v Speaker 1>But coming as far as Nakotis to trade, they averred,

0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.559
<v Speaker 1>was too inconvenient. So Sibley promised that if they would

0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.800
<v Speaker 1>spurn the Spanish and fly US flags over their villages.

0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.320
<v Speaker 1>He would send private traders to them in large numbers,

0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.800
<v Speaker 1>and unlike the Spanish, whose policies forbade arming Indians, the

0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:48.400
<v Speaker 1>Americans would freely trade guns, lead, and powder so the

0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:53.320
<v Speaker 1>tribes could hunt and prosecute their wars. As Sibley sagely

0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:58.800
<v Speaker 1>told President Jefferson, whoever furnishes Indians the best and most

0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.679
<v Speaker 1>satisfactory trade can always control their politics.

0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:10.959
<v Speaker 2>Within a few weeks of these.

0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Grand councils, in the town of Natchez on the east

0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:18.600
<v Speaker 1>bank of the Mississippi, a Pennsylvania immigrant and hardware store

0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.400
<v Speaker 1>owner there decided to take Sibley up on this offer

0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.560
<v Speaker 1>to the tribes. Anthony Glass was around thirty five at

0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the time, had recently seen his young wife pass away,

0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.559
<v Speaker 1>and was in a town that swirled with rumors about

0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:38.240
<v Speaker 1>the mysterious West. Some books on the Natchez trace the

0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.360
<v Speaker 1>famed Woodlands trail from Natchez to Kentucky and Tennessee see

0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Glass's hardware store doubling as a depot for outlaws on

0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:51.559
<v Speaker 1>the trace to fence stolen goods. What's more certain about

0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.920
<v Speaker 1>Glass is that he had watched for years as wealth

0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.640
<v Speaker 1>of various kinds had flowed from the West into the South.

0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.760
<v Speaker 1>Early in eighteen o eight, he determined that the time

0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.320
<v Speaker 1>was right to set out on a western expedition of

0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.240
<v Speaker 1>his own. He asked Sibley for a license and secured

0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.040
<v Speaker 1>two thousand dollars in trade goods for the journey. Sibley

0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.839
<v Speaker 1>was delighted enough there is good reason to believe the

0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:22.480
<v Speaker 1>Indian agent himself became an investor in the proposition. Unlike

0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.120
<v Speaker 1>farther north, it was not the pelts of beavers or

0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:29.240
<v Speaker 1>muskrats that drew traders to the southern plains. Indian processed

0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.320
<v Speaker 1>buffalo robes were available, but were too bulky and heavy

0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.240
<v Speaker 1>for private traders to transport. There were deer skins that

0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.080
<v Speaker 1>could be made into leather to be sure, and honey

0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:43.040
<v Speaker 1>from European bees spreading westward. But as Sibley and his

0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.079
<v Speaker 1>Comanche contacts had discussed, in the southern West, the primary

0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:51.720
<v Speaker 1>tradable wealth consisted of the hundreds of thousands of horses

0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:56.440
<v Speaker 1>running wild across the plains. In a later episode, I'll

0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.679
<v Speaker 1>tell the fuller story of the little known Western horse trade.

0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.440
<v Speaker 1>But since the early seventeen nineties, Americans like Philip Nolan

0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.880
<v Speaker 1>had been driving herds of wild horses that had contrived

0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.920
<v Speaker 1>to capture or had acquired in the Indian trade to

0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.400
<v Speaker 1>furnish stock for the advancing Southern frontier. That live horses

0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.040
<v Speaker 1>could walk themselves to market was one of their great attractions.

0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.960
<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, in the Southwest, there had always

0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:28.920
<v Speaker 1>been another possibility for wealth. From the start of European

0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:33.200
<v Speaker 1>interest in the region, there had been rumors of precious medals,

0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:38.199
<v Speaker 1>even of golden cities. In the fifteen thirties, the shipwrecked

0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.640
<v Speaker 1>spaniard Cabeza Devaca had said that natives somewhere in Texas

0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.520
<v Speaker 1>had presented him with bags of well the early editions

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.720
<v Speaker 1>of his account called them bags of silver. A few

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.360
<v Speaker 1>years after that, having failed to find cities of gold

0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.880
<v Speaker 1>among the Zunis and Pueblo people, Francisco Coronado and fifty

0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.400
<v Speaker 1>of his men travel led most of the way across

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.679
<v Speaker 1>the southern plains because a clever and manipulative native informant

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 1>told them that in Quaverra, the Wichita country, the Indian

0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:15.319
<v Speaker 1>leaders wore bracelets of metal. Carnado interpreted that to mean

0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.400
<v Speaker 1>silver or gold, until in Quavera he met a Wichita

0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 1>headman wearing a metal necklace. The necklace was made of copper.

0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.680
<v Speaker 1>But as the American frontier had advanced past the Mississippi,

0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.080
<v Speaker 1>these stories did not go away, and in the seventeen

0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.360
<v Speaker 1>seventies they were actually joined by a fresh version, this

0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.000
<v Speaker 1>time from a source that seemed unusually reliable.

0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:41.439
<v Speaker 2>Word went out that the.

0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:47.319
<v Speaker 1>Highly experienced French trader from Nacanus Athena's day Messiree had

0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.120
<v Speaker 1>returned from a foray up the Red River in seventeen

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:54.760
<v Speaker 1>seventy two with an account of widespread Indian excitement over

0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.559
<v Speaker 1>what the frenchman heard was a giant mass of silvery

0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:03.000
<v Speaker 1>metal out on the disc planes. This mystery was apparently

0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.320
<v Speaker 1>located somewhere on the Comancheria in Comanche Land, but a

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.280
<v Speaker 1>Wichita Indian claimed to be its discoverer. A band of

0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.120
<v Speaker 1>Pawnees from Nebraska were said to have journeyed hundreds of

0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 1>miles to see the phenomenon and had proclaimed it a deity.

0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.280
<v Speaker 1>Perhaps these stories were just misunderstood exaggerations, like those of Cabeza,

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:30.000
<v Speaker 1>Devaka or Coronado. But maybe there was something truly valuable

0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.760
<v Speaker 1>out there in the vast distances towards the sunset at

0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.480
<v Speaker 1>the Grand councils in eighteen oh seven. Sibley had naturally

0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.960
<v Speaker 1>inquired what the Indians knew of such stories. One of

0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.920
<v Speaker 1>the Comanche headman, who had wrapped himself in the American flag,

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.080
<v Speaker 1>knew the correct response to a question like that. Of course,

0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:57.120
<v Speaker 1>he said, in their country there was silver or plenty.

0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.800
<v Speaker 1>It's difficult now to know exactly what Sibilan or Anthony

0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 1>Glass believed a journey to the interior might ultimately reveal

0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 1>in the West, but at the time Orleans Territorial Governor

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:14.680
<v Speaker 1>William Clayburn was highly suspicious Sibley, the governor claimed, accurately,

0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>was supplying Glass with US flags to carry to Indians

0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.320
<v Speaker 1>whom the Spanish government believed.

0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.600
<v Speaker 2>To be their subjects. With respect to Glass, who had.

0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Decided to outfit himself with a military jacket and dress sword,

0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.760
<v Speaker 1>Clayburn heard that Sibley was now referring to the hardware

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:37.360
<v Speaker 1>store owner as Captain Glass. Of course, Sibley rightly believed

0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.600
<v Speaker 1>that as Indian agent, he was furthering Jefferson's own policies

0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 1>towards the Southwest, but it was particularly annoying when Clayburn

0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 1>further argued to Washington that while Glass portrayed himself as

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.000
<v Speaker 1>a horse trader. The Glasses party true intent was to

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:59.440
<v Speaker 1>conduct a silver mine expedition. Whatever else Glass had in

0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.760
<v Speaker 1>mind when he assembled his outfit and party for an

0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.320
<v Speaker 1>early July eighteen oh eight departure up the Red River,

0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:11.560
<v Speaker 1>he intended to trade. His outfit included sixteen pack horses

0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.640
<v Speaker 1>to ferry that two thousand dollars in trade goods, along

0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.800
<v Speaker 1>with a remuda of thirty two additional mounts. His party

0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.080
<v Speaker 1>was hardly an invading army. There were only eleven of them.

0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.080
<v Speaker 1>Among them were three pass veterans of the Red River trade,

0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:31.400
<v Speaker 1>a mixed blood interpreter Joseph Lucas whose Indian name was Tallapoon,

0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.400
<v Speaker 1>and a pair of horse traders named John Davis and

0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:38.160
<v Speaker 1>William Alexander, who had been among the Wichitas and Comanches

0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 1>two years earlier.

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 2>The party also.

0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.400
<v Speaker 1>Included a fifteen year old named Peter Young and a

0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 1>man named George Shamp who was highly excited about the

0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.400
<v Speaker 1>silver ore Davis and Alexander claimed to have seen on

0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 1>their past expeditions. The root Glass plan involved an eastern

0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 1>detour around the Great Raft, the enormous log jam that

0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 1>blocked the Red River above Nakaish, and then a crossing

0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.359
<v Speaker 1>of the Red through a bank side village of newly

0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:13.439
<v Speaker 1>immigrated Creek Indians known as Koshatas. At that point they

0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.680
<v Speaker 1>would fall onto the regular Indian trail that led from

0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.200
<v Speaker 1>the lower Red.

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.320
<v Speaker 2>To the Wichita towns far up river.

0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:25.280
<v Speaker 1>Once Stead looped the Great Raft, their course would be northwesterly,

0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.920
<v Speaker 1>not intersecting the Red River itself again until they were

0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:44.520
<v Speaker 1>nearly to the Wichita villages. Two centuries later. We know

0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.520
<v Speaker 1>what happened during the eight months Glass and his party

0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.560
<v Speaker 1>were in the West, what the Red River country was like,

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.919
<v Speaker 1>the specific people they met, what Glass in others experience

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.639
<v Speaker 1>living with Indians, and how the Americans reacted to an

0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:04.720
<v Speaker 1>astounding mystery. Because of a simple thing, Glass kept a

0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:09.119
<v Speaker 1>journal of the trip. In fact, Sibley had insisted that

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Glass regularly put down the details of his journey. As

0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.040
<v Speaker 1>a store owner. Glass was literate, and there's a good

0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.680
<v Speaker 1>chance few, if any of the rest of the party were.

0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.600
<v Speaker 1>Glass's journal then is a kind of time travel window

0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.679
<v Speaker 1>into how the West struck this group of travelers into

0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:33.240
<v Speaker 1>the unknown. Like most people who journeyed across the West

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 1>in those days, Glasses party intended to live off the land,

0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.360
<v Speaker 1>but following an ancient Indian trail did not necessarily make

0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.920
<v Speaker 1>that easy. There was almost no wildlife in the vicinity

0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.439
<v Speaker 1>of the Kashata village on the Red and with a

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.280
<v Speaker 1>party of Catto Indians ahead of them on the trace

0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:55.640
<v Speaker 1>through Northeast Texas, deer and other animals were spooked. Three

0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.320
<v Speaker 1>weeks of travel, however, gradually brought the party out of

0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.879
<v Speaker 1>the pinewood and into the tall grass prairies at the

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.440
<v Speaker 1>edge of the Great Plains. The whole country was now

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:11.840
<v Speaker 1>becoming a gently rolling parkland populated with brand new creatures

0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:17.119
<v Speaker 1>prairie chickens, wild horses, and prairie dogs, all the first

0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:21.080
<v Speaker 1>Glass had ever seen. Within a month's travel, they were

0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.879
<v Speaker 1>north of present Dallas, surrounded by great numbers of wild horses,

0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:32.240
<v Speaker 1>as Glass put it, and feasting daily on fresh buffalo glasses.

0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Party crossed to the north side of the Red River

0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:39.440
<v Speaker 1>on August eighth. He found the country remarkably pleasant, as

0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.359
<v Speaker 1>he said, with herds of bison in sight everywhere. They looked,

0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.400
<v Speaker 1>deer as tame as domestic stop since no one bothered

0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.800
<v Speaker 1>to hunt them, and the Wichita towns now only fifty

0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.639
<v Speaker 1>miles up River. Three days later, a large party of

0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.359
<v Speaker 1>well mounted Indians escorted the Americans into their villages. A

0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.280
<v Speaker 1>trio of town's arrayed on both banks of the Red

0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.800
<v Speaker 1>River in a setting Glass described as beautiful, the land

0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.800
<v Speaker 1>of first quality, he said, with excellent abundant springs of water.

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.119
<v Speaker 1>Like the Mandans and Ricaras on the Missouri. These divisions

0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:19.040
<v Speaker 1>of the Wichitas were agricultural people, who Glass soon realized

0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.879
<v Speaker 1>grew large quantities of corn, beans, pumpkins, and melons, so

0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 1>they had a surplus to trade for meat with their

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.080
<v Speaker 1>buffalo hunting allies, the Comanches. Their towns were made up

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:35.280
<v Speaker 1>of framed thatched houses, as Glass put it, in the

0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.439
<v Speaker 1>form of a sugar loaf seventy or eighty feet in

0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.520
<v Speaker 1>diameter at the base and thirty or forty feet high.

0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.440
<v Speaker 1>Each of the towns had a civil chief, but there

0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.680
<v Speaker 1>was a presiding grand chief, a waha Kai or great bear,

0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:54.320
<v Speaker 1>who struck Glass as about fifty years old. When Glass

0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:58.359
<v Speaker 1>delivered his speech to the assembled tribe extolling American friendship,

0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.440
<v Speaker 1>it was clear Awa was the first personality among them,

0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:08.360
<v Speaker 1>as responsible as Sibley for making glasses expedition possible. That

0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:13.639
<v Speaker 1>reality brought immediate rewards. The chief is in our mess,

0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.680
<v Speaker 1>Glass confided in his journal, and we want for nothing

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:22.560
<v Speaker 1>the town affords and live in plenty. Glass and most

0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:24.760
<v Speaker 1>of his men spent the rest of August and half

0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:29.720
<v Speaker 1>of September trading for Indian horses and marveling at Wichita culture.

0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.400
<v Speaker 1>At one point they watched as mounted bow wielding Wichita

0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:37.159
<v Speaker 1>hunters killed every last animal from a herd of forty

0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.560
<v Speaker 1>one buffalo. They also formed a good sense of why

0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.160
<v Speaker 1>the Wichitas and Comanches were so eager to trade for firearms.

0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:48.280
<v Speaker 1>On three different occasions, Glass woke to discover that an

0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:52.120
<v Speaker 1>enemy of the Wichitas, the Osages, had raided the villages

0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 1>and stolen horses from their communal herds, including many of

0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.200
<v Speaker 1>the ones he had only just bought. In the third instance,

0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.920
<v Speaker 1>all lies with astonishment and fury that an Osage raider

0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.639
<v Speaker 1>was riding what he called a remarkable paint horse that

0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 1>used to be my own riding horse. The o Sages

0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.399
<v Speaker 1>were well supplied with guns from American traders out of

0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.600
<v Speaker 1>Saint Louis, but when the Wichitas pursued the raiders, only

0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 1>a third of the Wichita party could muster firearms of

0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.600
<v Speaker 1>any kind. In the weeks just before the Americans had arrived,

0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Glass learned the Osages had made off with five hundred

0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:34.639
<v Speaker 1>Wichita horses in broad daylight. The raiders were so well

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:40.040
<v Speaker 1>armed the Witchitals had merely watched in sullen silence, unable

0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.280
<v Speaker 1>to raise any resistance.

0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.760
<v Speaker 2>To the outrage.

0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.280
<v Speaker 1>While Alexander and Davis had now departed for a camp

0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:53.720
<v Speaker 1>of Comanches they knew from prior trips West Glass had

0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.880
<v Speaker 1>other things on his mind. For one thing, he had

0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:02.359
<v Speaker 1>made friends among the Wichitas, specifically with an Indian couple,

0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:07.879
<v Speaker 1>a highly distinguished warrior named Tatsuk, a brave, subtle, and

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.840
<v Speaker 1>intrepid man, Glass said, who in fact was a Spaniard

0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:16.159
<v Speaker 1>captured as a child and raised as an Indian, and

0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:21.040
<v Speaker 1>along with his wife, who Glass described as a Pawnee woman,

0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:26.360
<v Speaker 1>just as remarkable for her address and intrigue. And Glass

0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.960
<v Speaker 1>was discovering he was living among a people famous for

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:36.119
<v Speaker 1>their sexual liberation. The Wichitas are great libertines, both men

0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:40.159
<v Speaker 1>and women, the American wrote, not addicted to jealousy, and

0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:42.920
<v Speaker 1>nothing is more common than for a man to loan

0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:47.720
<v Speaker 1>or hire out his wife, particularly to strangers who visit

0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:52.719
<v Speaker 1>the nation. As Glass confessed in his journal, this couple

0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:57.880
<v Speaker 1>became my most intimate acquaintance. It seems to have been

0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.919
<v Speaker 1>these friends. Glass began to interrogate about the mystery that

0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:06.760
<v Speaker 1>had obviously played some role in launching his expedition. On

0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:11.320
<v Speaker 1>September eighteenth and nineteenth, he confided in his journal that

0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:15.199
<v Speaker 1>he had been informed of a remarkable piece of metal

0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 1>some days journey distant to the southward on the waters

0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:21.120
<v Speaker 1>of River Brazos.

0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Later, he wrote, hearing more of.

0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.080
<v Speaker 1>This singular metal, to which they attributed singular virtues and

0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:32.439
<v Speaker 1>curing diseases, I resolved to obtain permission to see it

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:35.280
<v Speaker 1>if I could, and proposed to them to go with me.

0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:40.400
<v Speaker 1>While they had known about this mystery for at least

0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.280
<v Speaker 1>four decades, the Red River tribes had never allowed a

0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:48.680
<v Speaker 1>white man to lay eyes on it. Various wichitas Glass

0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:51.840
<v Speaker 1>approached with his hope to see the object very likely

0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:57.000
<v Speaker 1>the headman Awagkai, were resolute in their refusal. So Glass

0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 1>turned to the couple he had befriended, and ultimately elicited

0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:04.000
<v Speaker 1>from them a promise to show him the tantalizing mystery.

0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:07.959
<v Speaker 1>Scribbling in his journal by firelight, he put his hopes

0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:12.440
<v Speaker 1>this way, the more I heard about the object, the

0:25:12.440 --> 0:25:16.439
<v Speaker 1>more my anxiety was increased, suspecting from their account of

0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:21.399
<v Speaker 1>it and great veneration for it, it might be platina, platinum,

0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:26.600
<v Speaker 1>or something of great value. Two weeks later, on October

0:25:27.240 --> 0:25:30.640
<v Speaker 1>of eighteen oh eight, Glass and a party of Wichita's

0:25:30.680 --> 0:25:35.120
<v Speaker 1>that included his new friend Tatasuk, the grand chief Owa Kai,

0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:39.600
<v Speaker 1>and the Wichita warrior who had found the object decades earlier,

0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:43.840
<v Speaker 1>crossed the Red River and headed in a southwesterly direction

0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:48.120
<v Speaker 1>towards a Comanche village in this country.

0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Tatasuk told him they would.

0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Find the mysterious mass that had now become an obsession

0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:57.960
<v Speaker 1>for Glass and his men. In the Comanche village, things

0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:02.520
<v Speaker 1>at first did not go well. Leaders objected the mystery,

0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 1>after all, was on their land. After some altercation, Glass wrote,

0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:10.640
<v Speaker 1>it was finally agreed that if it should turn out

0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:14.239
<v Speaker 1>to be of considerable value, what it brought should be

0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:19.080
<v Speaker 1>divided between both Comanches and Wichitas. But at that point

0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:24.080
<v Speaker 1>the mystery's original discoverer was overcome with doubt, and I

0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:27.639
<v Speaker 1>was obliged to flatter and bribe him to go on,

0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Glass confessed. Here is how Glass described the remarkable events

0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:40.479
<v Speaker 1>that culminated on October fourteenth, eighteen oh eight. Our whole

0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:44.919
<v Speaker 1>party now became very numerous, containing of men and women

0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:49.400
<v Speaker 1>and children, near one thousand souls and three times that

0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:53.840
<v Speaker 1>number of horses and mules. Moving slowly on to the west,

0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:58.119
<v Speaker 1>crossing the River Brazos, about fifty miles, we approached the

0:26:58.160 --> 0:27:03.240
<v Speaker 1>place where the metal was, the Indians observing considerable ceremony

0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:08.800
<v Speaker 1>as they approached. As they neared the phenomenon across open prairie,

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:12.480
<v Speaker 1>what the Americans first saw was a wide variety of

0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:15.959
<v Speaker 1>native offerings surrounding the object in every direction.

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:17.800
<v Speaker 2>At the center of the.

0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:22.240
<v Speaker 1>Pipes, beads, and bags of pollen, their eyes fell on

0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:26.919
<v Speaker 1>a dimpled, blackish metal object resting on the surface of

0:27:26.960 --> 0:27:31.159
<v Speaker 1>the ground and balanced on its heaviest end. It was

0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:37.480
<v Speaker 1>roughly four feet tall by two feet wide, and massively heavy.

0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:43.240
<v Speaker 1>The Indians were reverent. The Americans mystified a magnet glass

0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:46.280
<v Speaker 1>had brought along showed an attraction to the object, but

0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:49.480
<v Speaker 1>they could see no rust on it anywhere it could

0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:52.960
<v Speaker 1>be indented. It was malleable enough for the Indians to

0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:56.879
<v Speaker 1>fashion jewelry and arrowpoints from it, and it peeled like

0:27:56.960 --> 0:28:01.440
<v Speaker 1>a bell when struck rubbing, it produced a brilliant polish,

0:28:01.800 --> 0:28:04.639
<v Speaker 1>and it gave off sparks when struck with a flint.

0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:09.560
<v Speaker 1>But it was untarnished, which meant it could not be

0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:11.359
<v Speaker 1>a giant nugget of silver.

0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:15.159
<v Speaker 2>But what then? In wonder?

0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Glass contrived to file off some samples. Then their vast

0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:23.440
<v Speaker 1>party rode away, leaving the object to its splendid isolation.

0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:31.920
<v Speaker 1>The stories of Anthony Glass and of this baffling Western

0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:36.080
<v Speaker 1>mystery began to unwine from one another at this point.

0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:40.360
<v Speaker 1>Except for his interpreter and the teenager Peter Young, the

0:28:40.440 --> 0:28:44.480
<v Speaker 1>rest of glasses party now departed with their horses for Louisiana,

0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:49.640
<v Speaker 1>with secret plans, several of them began to formulate. Initially,

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Glass traveled farther south to trade with the Comanche bands

0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:56.719
<v Speaker 1>along the Colorado River of Texas. By the first of

0:28:56.800 --> 0:29:00.560
<v Speaker 1>eighteen oh nine, he had turned back towards the wichitav villages,

0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:04.400
<v Speaker 1>first pausing in the Grand Prairie west of today's Fort

0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Worth to try his hand at driving and corralling the

0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:12.240
<v Speaker 1>thousands of wild mustangs there. By late February he was

0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:15.640
<v Speaker 1>back in the Wichita towns, and on March the twenty first,

0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:19.680
<v Speaker 1>he Lucas and Young finally set out for Nacolus with

0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:23.840
<v Speaker 1>their horse herd. They arrived in May to discover that

0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:30.400
<v Speaker 1>their adventures had inflamed the whole frontier. Doctor Sibley was

0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:33.600
<v Speaker 1>as excited as the men in the taverns, and quickly

0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:39.800
<v Speaker 1>posted this report to his superiors in Washington. Captain Glass

0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:43.200
<v Speaker 1>has just returned here from a trading voyage towards the

0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:46.840
<v Speaker 1>head of Red River. During his travels and residents amongst

0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:49.920
<v Speaker 1>the Indians, where he spent more than eight months, he

0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:52.920
<v Speaker 1>was conducted by Indians to a place where he saw

0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:57.320
<v Speaker 1>in large masses of many thousands of pounds weight. A

0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:02.520
<v Speaker 1>singular kind of mineral and color resembles iron, but whiter.

0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:07.719
<v Speaker 1>It is hard as steel, yet malleable as gold or silver.

0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:11.720
<v Speaker 1>It is obedient to the magnet, but less so than iron.

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.200
<v Speaker 1>It is not flexible, and the greatest heat that can

0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:19.200
<v Speaker 1>be produced in a blacksmith's furnace. It will neither corrode

0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:23.560
<v Speaker 1>nor rust by exposure to the atmosphere. It receives a

0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:27.400
<v Speaker 1>polish as brilliant as a diamond, and of a quick

0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:32.640
<v Speaker 1>silver color. If it is not platina or platinum.

0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:33.240
<v Speaker 2>I do not know what it is.

0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:38.160
<v Speaker 1>Simply had sent a sample to Philadelphia to be essayed.

0:30:38.400 --> 0:30:39.480
<v Speaker 2>He wrote.

0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Meanwhile, what he had heard might be one hundred thousand

0:30:43.120 --> 0:30:47.600
<v Speaker 1>pounds of it, yet lay out on the distant prairie,

0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:51.960
<v Speaker 1>a giant nugget of platinum. That was the consensus, and

0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:55.640
<v Speaker 1>not just among the frontier traders. Even Sibly, the best

0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:59.600
<v Speaker 1>educated man on the scene, agreed. So there was nothing

0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.280
<v Speaker 1>for it but to go fetch the Red River mystery

0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:06.200
<v Speaker 1>back to civilization, and as fast as possible. In terms

0:31:06.200 --> 0:31:09.080
<v Speaker 1>of who would do that and how, though there was

0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:13.680
<v Speaker 1>no consensus, Glass for his part, opted out. He'd had

0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:16.240
<v Speaker 1>his fill of the planes and life with the Indians,

0:31:16.720 --> 0:31:19.200
<v Speaker 1>but the rest of his party had not, and instead

0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:23.040
<v Speaker 1>of cooperating with one another, they formed two rival groups

0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:27.440
<v Speaker 1>for in effect a mining rush. One party, launched from

0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Nakelash and led by George Shamp and William Alexander, included

0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:37.200
<v Speaker 1>five of the original Glass party. Beyond a supply of rifles, ammunition,

0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:41.200
<v Speaker 1>and blankets, the exact quantity of trade goods they took

0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 1>haven't come down to us, only that they had wealthy benefactors,

0:31:45.240 --> 0:31:49.280
<v Speaker 1>including the Indian agent doctor Sibley. They set out in

0:31:49.320 --> 0:31:57.200
<v Speaker 1>the early summer of eighteen oh nine. The other party,

0:31:57.440 --> 0:32:01.600
<v Speaker 1>led by another Glass party man John David, recruited largely

0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:05.280
<v Speaker 1>from Natchez in Mississippi, and was the first to arrive

0:32:05.360 --> 0:32:09.480
<v Speaker 1>at the location of the mystery mass. Lacking a means

0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:12.840
<v Speaker 1>to transport it, however, they attempted to hide it from

0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:16.200
<v Speaker 1>the other party, who soon enough appeared with the Wichita

0:32:16.280 --> 0:32:19.320
<v Speaker 1>and Comanche owners, with whom they had apparently struck a

0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:24.320
<v Speaker 1>trade deal. The Shamp Alexander party had managed to get

0:32:24.400 --> 0:32:27.920
<v Speaker 1>a wagon to the spot, and levering the huge and

0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:31.680
<v Speaker 1>heavy mass into the buckboard, they now set out for

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:35.000
<v Speaker 1>the Red River with the plan of floating it to Nacolush.

0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:39.040
<v Speaker 1>The field had become even more crowded, though, word reached

0:32:39.080 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 1>them that a fifty two men Spanish cavalry from San

0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:46.200
<v Speaker 1>Antonio was coming after them with the intent of arresting

0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:53.080
<v Speaker 1>American interlopers illegally mining Platina in Spanish Texas. Setting fire

0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:55.840
<v Speaker 1>to the planes behind them, Shamp's party made it to

0:32:55.920 --> 0:32:58.880
<v Speaker 1>the Red Fashioned a barge and headed downriver.

0:32:59.320 --> 0:33:02.000
<v Speaker 2>They and their arrived to wild.

0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Excitement in Nacotish on June fourth of eighteen ten. For

0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:11.000
<v Speaker 1>nearly a year, the mysterious object resided in Nacotish, while

0:33:11.080 --> 0:33:14.880
<v Speaker 1>various would be investors offered varying sums to buy the

0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:19.320
<v Speaker 1>shares from the retrieving party. In eighteen eleven, Sibley and

0:33:19.360 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 1>others arranged to boat the baffling object to New Orleans,

0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:27.080
<v Speaker 1>accompanied by two members of the shamp Alexander party. There

0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:29.920
<v Speaker 1>it was loaded aboard a vessel bound for New York

0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:34.720
<v Speaker 1>so it could be properly assayed. Within a year, Sibley

0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:37.880
<v Speaker 1>assembled the anxious members of the group that had labored

0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:42.440
<v Speaker 1>to retrieve the mass and relayed very bad news. The

0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:47.520
<v Speaker 1>medal had assayed as some kind of alloyed iron. After

0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:51.360
<v Speaker 1>all their effort and all the excitement, the object had

0:33:51.400 --> 0:33:56.440
<v Speaker 1>no value. Of course, an essay determining that the object

0:33:56.520 --> 0:34:00.800
<v Speaker 1>was neither silver nor platinum did not answer the elephant

0:34:00.880 --> 0:34:05.680
<v Speaker 1>in the room question, what on Earth was it? In fact,

0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:13.560
<v Speaker 1>maybe it wasn't of Earth after all, and a lucky coincidence,

0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:17.840
<v Speaker 1>The retrieval of the West's most confounding object took place

0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:21.560
<v Speaker 1>in the first decade in human history when science was

0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:25.680
<v Speaker 1>able to answer a question like that. In eighteen oh three,

0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:30.120
<v Speaker 1>residents of the village of Le Guel, France, had reported

0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:34.120
<v Speaker 1>that during a night of flying stars, stones had rained

0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:37.920
<v Speaker 1>from the sky onto their town. Four years later, a

0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:41.600
<v Speaker 1>Yale professor named Benjamin Sillimon happened to be on hand

0:34:41.719 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 1>to see a similar shower of debris from the heavens

0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:50.120
<v Speaker 1>near western Connecticut. Sillimon was dumbfounded and at a loss,

0:34:50.560 --> 0:34:53.040
<v Speaker 1>arguing that the pieces must have broken off from the

0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:58.600
<v Speaker 1>Moon or been discharged by some distant volcanic eruption. Following

0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:01.719
<v Speaker 1>the lead of French scientists, he now believed such objects

0:35:01.760 --> 0:35:06.280
<v Speaker 1>were related to shooting stars or meteors. However, by eighteen

0:35:06.320 --> 0:35:10.280
<v Speaker 1>oh eight, scientists were writing in American journals and using

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:15.840
<v Speaker 1>the term meteorites to refer to debris from the sky,

0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:19.840
<v Speaker 1>gaining access to the metallic mass. In eighteen fourteen, a

0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:23.880
<v Speaker 1>newly aware professor Sillimon published the first in a series

0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:27.719
<v Speaker 1>of experiments on it and surmised that it too was

0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:32.759
<v Speaker 1>a meteorite. He labeled it a siderite, the new term

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:38.080
<v Speaker 1>for an iron nickel alloy meteorite. Since it hadn't been embedded,

0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.879
<v Speaker 1>it was likely a direct motion object that fell at

0:35:41.960 --> 0:35:46.279
<v Speaker 1>low velocity between midnight and noon in the direction of

0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:51.600
<v Speaker 1>the Earth's spin. Named Red River, the one thousand, six

0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:56.160
<v Speaker 1>hundred and thirty five pound mass became the prize meteorite

0:35:56.239 --> 0:35:58.880
<v Speaker 1>and the largest in the world for most of the

0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:03.360
<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century. In an effort to recreate its discovery in

0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:07.840
<v Speaker 1>the eighteen twenties, Silimon interviewed doctor Sibley and Nacadish and

0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:10.920
<v Speaker 1>prevailed on him to send along a copy of Glasses

0:36:11.080 --> 0:36:15.640
<v Speaker 1>Journal with the first description anyone had written of this mystery.

0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:16.320
<v Speaker 2>From the West.

0:36:18.560 --> 0:36:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Science may have been delighted with Red River, but the

0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:26.160
<v Speaker 1>frontier traders were never satisfied with this outcome. The American

0:36:26.239 --> 0:36:30.040
<v Speaker 1>geographer William Darby was in Nacotish when Sibley delivered the

0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:32.280
<v Speaker 1>bad news, and Darby.

0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:33.760
<v Speaker 2>Spoke to two of them.

0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:38.640
<v Speaker 1>They were convinced they had been swindled. In Darby's opinion,

0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:42.640
<v Speaker 1>the persons engaged were in general too ignorant to understand

0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:46.920
<v Speaker 1>the decisive results of such tests and unwilling to abandon

0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:48.600
<v Speaker 1>a pleasing delusion.

0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:50.840
<v Speaker 2>The result was.

0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:54.239
<v Speaker 1>That, for at least the next two decades, accounts of

0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:59.279
<v Speaker 1>silver and platina out on the plains became an unending

0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:01.279
<v Speaker 1>frontier conversation.

0:37:00.800 --> 0:37:01.719
<v Speaker 2>In the Southwest.

0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:06.800
<v Speaker 1>Ordinary history has preserved those conversations, primarily in the form

0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:11.840
<v Speaker 1>of the lost silver Mine of Alamo casualty Jim Bowie.

0:37:14.160 --> 0:37:14.640
<v Speaker 2>As for the.

0:37:14.640 --> 0:37:18.080
<v Speaker 1>Native people, while their most pressing need when the Americans

0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:22.040
<v Speaker 1>arrived was clearly for the weaponry Spanish trade denied them,

0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:25.400
<v Speaker 1>they do appear to have known that the giant meteorite

0:37:25.520 --> 0:37:30.120
<v Speaker 1>was associated with shooting stars, what the Wichitas called the

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:36.480
<v Speaker 1>light that flies. That heavenly association, plus the essential mystery

0:37:36.520 --> 0:37:40.000
<v Speaker 1>of the object makes me think their instinct to venerate

0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:44.080
<v Speaker 1>it was hardly naive. They very well may have sent

0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:50.080
<v Speaker 1>something profound about it. Among our current hypotheses for how

0:37:50.239 --> 0:37:55.480
<v Speaker 1>life arose on Earth, one with a strong following involves meteorites.

0:37:56.640 --> 0:37:59.520
<v Speaker 1>A striking piece of evidence for their possible role in

0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:03.439
<v Speaker 1>launching life on Earth comes from the discovery that, while

0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:07.880
<v Speaker 1>biology can be equally either left handed or right handed,

0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:13.520
<v Speaker 1>all organic molecules on Earth, even our NA and DNA,

0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:22.200
<v Speaker 1>are asymmetrically left handed, which makes meteorites particularly intriguing. Space

0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:26.839
<v Speaker 1>derived organic molecules brought to Earth by meteorites have been

0:38:26.920 --> 0:38:32.000
<v Speaker 1>gathered from all over the world, and like earthly life itself,

0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:36.520
<v Speaker 1>they show a strong orientation for left handedness.

0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:54.000
<v Speaker 3>Dan.

0:38:54.040 --> 0:38:55.400
<v Speaker 2>A thing you mentioned.

0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:59.239
<v Speaker 4>Is what's the name of the canyon on Mars, the

0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:04.000
<v Speaker 4>v a Ma nears, you should if you can take

0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:06.080
<v Speaker 4>a stab at explaining again, like how big it is.

0:39:06.120 --> 0:39:08.160
<v Speaker 4>But the thing that I took me a minute to

0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:15.680
<v Speaker 4>realize what you're saying is that I'm trying to equate

0:39:15.680 --> 0:39:17.239
<v Speaker 4>it to like if you're standing on the shore, like

0:39:17.280 --> 0:39:19.640
<v Speaker 4>on our Earth, if you're standing on a shore line.

0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Looking out in the.

0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.680
<v Speaker 4>Ocean, there's a couple of reasons why you can't see

0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:28.840
<v Speaker 4>the next continent. But one of them is that the

0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:32.880
<v Speaker 4>Earth rolls off right, and which you can. You know,

0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:35.279
<v Speaker 4>you can kind of demonstrate with certain objects where the

0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:36.759
<v Speaker 4>curvature of the Earth gets in the way.

0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Even if you can see island sometimes can appear out

0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:40.000
<v Speaker 2>of the water.

0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:44.200
<v Speaker 4>Even if you could see infinity, you still wouldn't see

0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 4>the other continent because the curvature of the Earth throws

0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:48.600
<v Speaker 4>you off. But it took me a minute to realize

0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:54.880
<v Speaker 4>that you're saying that, like on Mars, that this canyon

0:39:54.880 --> 0:39:57.600
<v Speaker 4>could be so big that on one side of the

0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:02.560
<v Speaker 4>canyon looking across be the same as standing on the

0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:06.919
<v Speaker 4>continental shelf. Yeah, and you might see the other side.

0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:07.600
<v Speaker 2>You couldn't see that.

0:40:07.600 --> 0:40:09.959
<v Speaker 4>I had to keep like think about that being like, oh, yeah,

0:40:10.080 --> 0:40:11.000
<v Speaker 4>that's a great point.

0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:15.640
<v Speaker 1>So you know, when you're in the Grand Canyon, obviously

0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:18.880
<v Speaker 1>you can see the other side. You can see the

0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:20.919
<v Speaker 1>cliffs on the other side. If you're on the south rim,

0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:22.880
<v Speaker 1>you can see the cliffs on the other side, And

0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:25.279
<v Speaker 1>when you're down in the bottom of it, you can

0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:27.880
<v Speaker 1>see the cliffs on both sides. What one of the

0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:30.719
<v Speaker 1>questions about this canyon, which is the largest canyon in

0:40:30.760 --> 0:40:34.600
<v Speaker 1>the Solar System, and you know, I am invoking it

0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:37.760
<v Speaker 1>because this is one of those mysteries that's out there,

0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:40.120
<v Speaker 1>sort of like the kind of mysteries that the West

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:44.360
<v Speaker 1>presented in eighteen hundred. But one of the mysteries about

0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:48.680
<v Speaker 1>this valum Mariner's Canyon, which is this gigantic canyon twenty

0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:50.520
<v Speaker 1>five thousand feet deep.

0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Is that Mars is so small that the question is whether.

0:40:56.880 --> 0:40:58.680
<v Speaker 1>Or not you can stand at the foot of the

0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:02.520
<v Speaker 1>cliffs on one side and actually see the cliffs on

0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:04.400
<v Speaker 1>the other side of the canyon. Even though it is

0:41:04.440 --> 0:41:08.800
<v Speaker 1>a perfectly vertical canyon with the two cliffs opposing one another,

0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:11.960
<v Speaker 1>the curve of the planet is so sharp that it

0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:14.200
<v Speaker 1>may put the other side out of view.

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:16.879
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you know, you have flat earthers if you had

0:41:16.880 --> 0:41:19.920
<v Speaker 4>flat Mars ors that get there and they'd be like, ah, there.

0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:22.040
<v Speaker 2>It is, I knew it. It does end.

0:41:23.719 --> 0:41:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it's so my As I said, the reason

0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:29.959
<v Speaker 1>I was invoking that is because it's one of those

0:41:30.080 --> 0:41:33.200
<v Speaker 1>mysteries that we're probably going to know the answer to

0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:36.480
<v Speaker 1>in another fifty or sixty years, once we have drones

0:41:36.520 --> 0:41:42.040
<v Speaker 1>flying around Mars. And it's to me kind of analogous

0:41:42.080 --> 0:41:44.000
<v Speaker 1>to some of the things that people were wondering about

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:46.800
<v Speaker 1>with respect to the West in eighteen hundred.

0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:48.120
<v Speaker 2>What's out there and.

0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:51.440
<v Speaker 1>What kind of strange things are we going to encounter

0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:56.000
<v Speaker 1>that have a logical explanation that now seem to be

0:41:56.480 --> 0:41:58.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, probably not logical at all.

0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:02.040
<v Speaker 4>And I thought it was a great parallel Yeah, well, yeah,

0:42:02.120 --> 0:42:05.200
<v Speaker 4>like our questions about our questions about Mars being a

0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:08.880
<v Speaker 4>great parallel to and then plus all the fantastical ideas people.

0:42:08.640 --> 0:42:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Had, Yeah, they had a lot of fantastical ideas, and

0:42:11.600 --> 0:42:14.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, and the one I resolved on was, you know,

0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:20.319
<v Speaker 1>this fairly little known story, but it's my analogy is

0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:24.239
<v Speaker 1>that it was kind of the Southern West version of

0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Culter's Hell, where John Coulter comes back after Lewis and

0:42:28.640 --> 0:42:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Clark expedition and goes into what is present day Wyoming

0:42:32.719 --> 0:42:36.960
<v Speaker 1>in Montana, and he encounters a place that a lot

0:42:36.960 --> 0:42:40.040
<v Speaker 1>of people didn't believe existed because his descriptions of it

0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:42.960
<v Speaker 1>seemed to be just, you know, really far out of line.

0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:47.319
<v Speaker 1>And this was a story from the southern Prairies that

0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:51.080
<v Speaker 1>kind of produced that same effect. What in the world

0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:55.520
<v Speaker 1>is this object that's out there that has Native people

0:42:55.640 --> 0:43:01.759
<v Speaker 1>so excited? And is it truly the realization of this

0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:06.839
<v Speaker 1>long standing myth of the Southwest harboring all kinds of

0:43:07.480 --> 0:43:14.839
<v Speaker 1>precious metals that you know, had sent everybody from Cobza,

0:43:15.360 --> 0:43:17.719
<v Speaker 1>well not Cobza to Vaca really because he sort of

0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:20.880
<v Speaker 1>starts the whole idea of there being precious metals in

0:43:20.920 --> 0:43:25.520
<v Speaker 1>the in the West. But uh, certainly Coronado. Coronado's expedition

0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:29.000
<v Speaker 1>was all about the idea that, uh, just as in

0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Mexico and in Peru, probably the American Southwest held untold,

0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:38.960
<v Speaker 1>unfathomable riches. And that's sort of the kind of genre

0:43:39.080 --> 0:43:41.279
<v Speaker 1>that this particular story plays in.

0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:47.440
<v Speaker 5>I think, Dan, when I read this, the comparison to

0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:51.520
<v Speaker 5>Mars and the the Canyon, it triggered for me a

0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:54.880
<v Speaker 5>memory of house sitting for you one summer in the

0:43:54.920 --> 0:43:58.719
<v Speaker 5>Bitter Root, and I went into the shed where he

0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:01.880
<v Speaker 5>kept the batteries for Solar system and on the wall,

0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:05.239
<v Speaker 5>it's one of my favorite memories of that place. There's

0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:10.680
<v Speaker 5>just a little yellowed image and underneath you had hand

0:44:10.760 --> 0:44:15.360
<v Speaker 5>labeled it Olympus Mons, the largest mountain in the Solar System,

0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:20.600
<v Speaker 5>and then parentheses Mars and there's no other context and Sydney.

0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:22.640
<v Speaker 5>It's been a while trying to figure out why that

0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:23.279
<v Speaker 5>was there, but.

0:44:24.719 --> 0:44:25.759
<v Speaker 2>It was a place to put it.

0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:31.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, in the Solar But I the next thought I

0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:32.279
<v Speaker 1>had was.

0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:37.919
<v Speaker 5>Like, you have a special fascination with outer space, and

0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:40.440
<v Speaker 5>there are all these parallels and pop cultures.

0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:40.839
<v Speaker 3>I didn't.

0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:47.720
<v Speaker 5>I just remember talking about when the movie John Carter

0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:51.200
<v Speaker 5>from Mars came out. You were excited for that because

0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:55.360
<v Speaker 5>it was vastly disappointed, vastly disappointed. But like all this

0:44:55.520 --> 0:45:00.000
<v Speaker 5>early sci fi culture drew so strongly on the parallel

0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:04.120
<v Speaker 5>to the West. And yeah, I don't know if you

0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:06.319
<v Speaker 5>can expand on that, but I mean it's sort of

0:45:06.320 --> 0:45:08.600
<v Speaker 5>an under It's one of those things where when you

0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:11.960
<v Speaker 5>take a step back and re examine what you know,

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:14.880
<v Speaker 5>it makes sense, and you see these parallels clearly, but

0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:17.840
<v Speaker 5>it's something that didn't really occur to me naturally.

0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Well.

0:45:19.200 --> 0:45:22.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I have always probably been fascinated with.

0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Space and space.

0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:29.760
<v Speaker 1>Expiration, probably because I was one of the Star Trek

0:45:29.880 --> 0:45:33.040
<v Speaker 1>kids in the sixties. I mean I was probably sixteen

0:45:33.239 --> 0:45:35.279
<v Speaker 1>years old or something when Star Trek was first on,

0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:39.239
<v Speaker 1>and that was you know, that sort of really compelled me,

0:45:39.800 --> 0:45:42.400
<v Speaker 1>I think, to be interested in space.

0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:44.080
<v Speaker 2>But it also does have.

0:45:43.960 --> 0:45:49.320
<v Speaker 1>A space expiration and Western exploration, to me, are pretty

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:53.000
<v Speaker 1>strong analogs of one another, because there's the whole idea

0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:56.840
<v Speaker 1>of going into a country that you don't know anything about,

0:45:56.920 --> 0:45:59.319
<v Speaker 1>and I think humans have done that. We've done that

0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:03.000
<v Speaker 1>ever since. We Africa and went to the Middle East,

0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:05.120
<v Speaker 1>and went to Europe and went to Asia and finally

0:46:05.160 --> 0:46:08.600
<v Speaker 1>found the America's I mean, there's always been that idea

0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:14.040
<v Speaker 1>of discovery and moving into new realms and finding new things,

0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:22.160
<v Speaker 1>new creatures, new landscapes, new kinds of landforms, and so yeah,

0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:24.359
<v Speaker 1>that you know, and I know.

0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:25.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm not alone in that.

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:28.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean Kim Stanley Robinson, you know, the who's probably

0:46:28.360 --> 0:46:32.040
<v Speaker 1>the best science fiction writer of our time. In his

0:46:32.160 --> 0:46:36.520
<v Speaker 1>Great Trilogy Red Mars, Blue Mars, and Green Mars. His

0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:41.440
<v Speaker 1>primary character in the first of those those books is

0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:47.120
<v Speaker 1>a guy named John Boone, and John Boone has this

0:46:47.320 --> 0:46:51.480
<v Speaker 1>wonderful experience of getting to go out in a rover

0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:56.600
<v Speaker 1>with a laptop and do some sort of drug I'm

0:46:56.640 --> 0:46:58.440
<v Speaker 1>not sure, I don't remember what they call it, but

0:46:58.480 --> 0:47:02.120
<v Speaker 1>it's some sort of mine expanse drug and driving out

0:47:02.160 --> 0:47:06.520
<v Speaker 1>through the landscapes of Mars and recording his impressions, you know,

0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:10.680
<v Speaker 1>of a kind of a discovery of Martian terrain and

0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Martian landforms. So yeah, there's probably in writing a piece

0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:19.400
<v Speaker 1>like this, given the conclusion where that's the story goes.

0:47:19.920 --> 0:47:23.960
<v Speaker 1>And I tried deliberately not to reveal what this object

0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:27.000
<v Speaker 1>was out there until we get to the end of

0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the story because I want there, wanted there to be

0:47:30.000 --> 0:47:31.799
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a mystery about what in the

0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:35.239
<v Speaker 1>world is this this object that is compelling all this

0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:39.719
<v Speaker 1>fascination by these traders who are going west. But yeah,

0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:41.880
<v Speaker 1>because of its association.

0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:43.960
<v Speaker 2>With with space, Yeah.

0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:47.880
<v Speaker 1>I clearly, you know, was willing to invoke Mars and

0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:50.800
<v Speaker 1>the and the giant canyon on Mars.

0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:53.560
<v Speaker 4>You know what, when you when you read about you

0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:56.799
<v Speaker 4>mentioned Coronado, and you read about coronat Or and you

0:47:56.840 --> 0:47:59.920
<v Speaker 4>get this sense of I use the word fantastical or

0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:03.160
<v Speaker 4>like they have these it seems like they're driven by

0:48:03.160 --> 0:48:07.560
<v Speaker 4>these like overblown expectations, cities of gold and all this.

0:48:08.200 --> 0:48:11.880
<v Speaker 4>But if you look at like what they were able

0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:17.279
<v Speaker 4>to sack from the Aztecs, I mean, was it overblown jonesy? Like,

0:48:18.120 --> 0:48:22.880
<v Speaker 4>wasn't what they actually what the Spanish actually like pulled

0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:26.680
<v Speaker 4>out of the Aztec Empire? I mean that was like

0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:28.399
<v Speaker 4>staggering wealth for real, right.

0:48:28.400 --> 0:48:31.400
<v Speaker 1>It was staggering wealth in fact, So the combination of

0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:36.040
<v Speaker 1>the sacking of the Assec Empire and the destruction of

0:48:36.120 --> 0:48:41.319
<v Speaker 1>the Incas in Peru produced two hundred times over the

0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:44.000
<v Speaker 1>amount of gold and silver that had ever been known

0:48:44.160 --> 0:48:47.560
<v Speaker 1>in the Old world. So when Spain does that, of course,

0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:50.719
<v Speaker 1>and what that does is that it sets up this

0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:54.719
<v Speaker 1>expectation that these are not the only two places there

0:48:54.719 --> 0:48:58.000
<v Speaker 1>are going to be. And so that's why Spain and

0:48:58.040 --> 0:49:03.160
<v Speaker 1>these Spanish explorers like Carnado or so convinced that farther

0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:06.880
<v Speaker 1>north there's going to be another one of these grand discoveries.

0:49:06.920 --> 0:49:08.680
<v Speaker 4>Because you look at him and party wants to be

0:49:08.680 --> 0:49:09.680
<v Speaker 4>like you idiots.

0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:12.200
<v Speaker 2>But then on their head they're like, well, look, yeah,

0:49:12.280 --> 0:49:13.440
<v Speaker 2>look what happened.

0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:16.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so two hundred times more, two.

0:49:15.920 --> 0:49:18.680
<v Speaker 1>Hundred times the amount of gold and silver that had

0:49:18.719 --> 0:49:21.920
<v Speaker 1>existed in the Old world came out of those mines

0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:27.560
<v Speaker 1>and in the New world. And so it was yeah,

0:49:27.600 --> 0:49:32.160
<v Speaker 1>it was Yeah, it was a spectacular discovery. And so

0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:34.120
<v Speaker 1>that's one of the reasons you can look at someone

0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:38.880
<v Speaker 1>like Carnado and feel a certain sympathy for his expectation.

0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:41.840
<v Speaker 1>And that's why you know he takes when he doesn't

0:49:41.880 --> 0:49:47.719
<v Speaker 1>find cities of gold at Zooni. He hears word, as

0:49:47.760 --> 0:49:50.920
<v Speaker 1>I describe him, from this very clever and manipulative native

0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:54.840
<v Speaker 1>informant that far out on the great Plains, on the prairies,

0:49:55.239 --> 0:50:00.200
<v Speaker 1>there is a civilization where its leaders wear metal ornaments,

0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:05.359
<v Speaker 1>necklaces and bracelets and various kinds of other ornaments. And

0:50:05.480 --> 0:50:09.080
<v Speaker 1>so he Cornado takes fifty of his men and strikes

0:50:09.120 --> 0:50:12.600
<v Speaker 1>out from New Mexico across the plains and travels all

0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:16.120
<v Speaker 1>the way into present day Kansas on the Arkansas River

0:50:16.200 --> 0:50:20.520
<v Speaker 1>and finds this country Quaverra, which is the country of

0:50:20.520 --> 0:50:23.120
<v Speaker 1>the Wichita Indians when they were living up on the

0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:27.120
<v Speaker 1>Arkansas and as I say in the Peace, he does

0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:31.560
<v Speaker 1>find civil leaders who are wearing jewelry, but it's bronze,

0:50:31.760 --> 0:50:35.520
<v Speaker 1>it's copper, it's stuff. It's copper actually from the mines

0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:41.000
<v Speaker 1>up around Lake Superior. So the story, and that's kind

0:50:41.000 --> 0:50:45.759
<v Speaker 1>of what propels the primary story in this piece, is

0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:49.360
<v Speaker 1>that there is something. It's just when you see it

0:50:49.440 --> 0:50:55.080
<v Speaker 1>through the eyes of expectation, you're very likely going to

0:50:55.120 --> 0:51:00.640
<v Speaker 1>be disappointed. As these traders from Louisiana and Missus Zippy who

0:51:00.760 --> 0:51:04.760
<v Speaker 1>go to this tremendous effort to haul back this object

0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:07.879
<v Speaker 1>from the Southern pliance had up being they're disappointed.

0:51:07.960 --> 0:51:09.759
<v Speaker 2>Ultimately it doesn't pay off.

0:51:09.760 --> 0:51:15.520
<v Speaker 5>For one of the people that you write about in

0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:22.360
<v Speaker 5>this in this piece is I think George Sibley, John Sibley,

0:51:22.640 --> 0:51:25.600
<v Speaker 5>Doctor John's. Yeah, the Indian agent. And that's a term

0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:32.279
<v Speaker 5>that you see again and again in accounts from the

0:51:32.360 --> 0:51:37.799
<v Speaker 5>nineteenth nineteenth century, you know, US West history, and it's

0:51:37.840 --> 0:51:42.359
<v Speaker 5>also one that doesn't really have a contemporary parallel, and

0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:45.040
<v Speaker 5>it's I wonder if you could sort of unpack that

0:51:45.120 --> 0:51:49.040
<v Speaker 5>for people that haven't encountered it before, because it's sort

0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:54.920
<v Speaker 5>of a diplomat, sort of a trade controlling access to

0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:58.080
<v Speaker 5>food stuffs and resources, especially as the reservation.

0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:01.640
<v Speaker 4>You're sometimes sometimes an exploiter and.

0:52:01.880 --> 0:52:04.520
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, exactly, I mean tremendously powerful people.

0:52:04.920 --> 0:52:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they were tremendously powerful. And doctor John Sibley of

0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:15.239
<v Speaker 1>Louisiana was a kind of a prototypical Indian agent. He

0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:19.880
<v Speaker 1>was one of the very first ones, and his duties

0:52:19.920 --> 0:52:23.160
<v Speaker 1>were rather more limited than what we associate with later

0:52:23.560 --> 0:52:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Indian agents, say after the Civil War, where they are

0:52:26.680 --> 0:52:33.080
<v Speaker 1>doing things like providing food in order to enable reservation

0:52:33.160 --> 0:52:36.120
<v Speaker 1>people who have been placed on reservations to survive, and

0:52:36.160 --> 0:52:40.800
<v Speaker 1>they're acting in effect, the Indian agent's role is to

0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:45.520
<v Speaker 1>act as kind of a diplomatic go between between the

0:52:45.560 --> 0:52:50.480
<v Speaker 1>government in Washington and the native people themselves. And so

0:52:51.160 --> 0:52:54.560
<v Speaker 1>this fellow John Sibley is I mean, he's not the

0:52:54.600 --> 0:52:57.600
<v Speaker 1>only one. There are Indian agents, particularly appointed by the

0:52:57.680 --> 0:53:02.360
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson administration in many places. William Clark becomes an Indian

0:53:02.360 --> 0:53:05.200
<v Speaker 1>agent after the Lewis and Clark expedition is over. He's

0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:08.840
<v Speaker 1>in charge of he's the representative and the diplomat to

0:53:08.880 --> 0:53:13.600
<v Speaker 1>the Indians of the Missouri River country. So these people

0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:22.879
<v Speaker 1>are attempting to execute Washington's geopolitical strategy for the Louisiana

0:53:22.960 --> 0:53:27.719
<v Speaker 1>Purchase in the West. And the reason Sibley becomes important

0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:31.040
<v Speaker 1>is because he's the Indian agent of a part of

0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:35.640
<v Speaker 1>the West in the early nineteenth century where the boundaries

0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:39.439
<v Speaker 1>are disputed between Spain and the United States. And that's

0:53:39.480 --> 0:53:43.719
<v Speaker 1>why when I talked in one of the last episodes

0:53:43.760 --> 0:53:47.680
<v Speaker 1>about that Jeffersonian expedition up the Red River that got

0:53:47.719 --> 0:53:51.759
<v Speaker 1>turned around by Spain, that's the milieu in the context

0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:56.719
<v Speaker 1>in which Sibley is operating. So Washington has just attempted

0:53:56.760 --> 0:54:00.560
<v Speaker 1>to explore the southern parts of the Louisiana Purchase, and

0:54:00.600 --> 0:54:04.880
<v Speaker 1>the official Jeffersonian expedition has been blocked by a Spanish

0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:10.520
<v Speaker 1>force and turned around and sent back. And so what

0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:15.839
<v Speaker 1>Sibley is attempting to do is to execute Jeffersonian policy

0:54:15.920 --> 0:54:20.920
<v Speaker 1>for the West in a place where everything is vague

0:54:21.000 --> 0:54:24.640
<v Speaker 1>and the boundaries are not clear. And what he's attempting

0:54:24.719 --> 0:54:30.359
<v Speaker 1>to do then is to win over the tribes of

0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:35.319
<v Speaker 1>the deep plains of the southern West. And that's really

0:54:35.360 --> 0:54:40.200
<v Speaker 1>as far as his ideas extend. Nobody knows exactly how

0:54:40.239 --> 0:54:43.839
<v Speaker 1>far out the true Southwest, say Santa Fe is, which

0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:47.680
<v Speaker 1>everybody knows is in possession of Spain. That seems to

0:54:47.719 --> 0:54:51.360
<v Speaker 1>be rather beyond the reach of somebody like Sibley, But

0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:53.839
<v Speaker 1>he knows that up a river like the Red River

0:54:53.960 --> 0:54:56.040
<v Speaker 1>or the Arkansas, there are all these tribes on the plains.

0:54:56.040 --> 0:54:58.040
<v Speaker 1>So what he's trying to do is he's trying to

0:54:58.120 --> 0:55:03.160
<v Speaker 1>win them away from from Spanish control to American control.

0:55:03.320 --> 0:55:07.399
<v Speaker 1>And his primary attempt in doing that is to send

0:55:07.440 --> 0:55:11.880
<v Speaker 1>these traders out with the promise of two things. If you,

0:55:12.120 --> 0:55:15.880
<v Speaker 1>the Wichitas or the Comanches, will take down the Spanish

0:55:15.920 --> 0:55:20.399
<v Speaker 1>flags flying over your villages and run American flags United

0:55:20.400 --> 0:55:23.200
<v Speaker 1>States flags up your flag poles, and sort of declare

0:55:23.239 --> 0:55:27.520
<v Speaker 1>yourselves to be Indians of the United States, then what

0:55:27.600 --> 0:55:30.000
<v Speaker 1>we're going to do in return is we're going to

0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:33.239
<v Speaker 1>set you up with a trade. If you recall that

0:55:34.280 --> 0:55:39.279
<v Speaker 1>sort of crafty line where he simply says something like

0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:45.879
<v Speaker 1>whoever offers Indians the best trade can always control their politics.

0:55:46.440 --> 0:55:49.359
<v Speaker 1>What we're going to do is send traders out. And

0:55:49.440 --> 0:55:52.759
<v Speaker 1>we know that Spain has not traded guns and ammunition

0:55:52.880 --> 0:55:57.960
<v Speaker 1>to you. That's against the imperial policy of the Spanish Empire.

0:55:58.400 --> 0:56:02.120
<v Speaker 1>They do not arm their native people. They try to

0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:07.360
<v Speaker 1>convert them into being agriculturists and not hunters, and as Americans,

0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:10.200
<v Speaker 1>we're going to offer you guns and ammunition. We're going

0:56:10.239 --> 0:56:12.480
<v Speaker 1>to trade guns to you. And so that's what a

0:56:12.480 --> 0:56:17.920
<v Speaker 1>lot of this story hinges around, is simply sending a

0:56:18.000 --> 0:56:22.520
<v Speaker 1>trading expedition out to the Wichitas and the Comanches with

0:56:22.680 --> 0:56:25.600
<v Speaker 1>the promise that I mean, what the traders are going

0:56:25.640 --> 0:56:29.759
<v Speaker 1>for is they're bringing back horses that they've traded for,

0:56:30.160 --> 0:56:34.560
<v Speaker 1>plus whatever the strange object is that everybody has heard

0:56:34.640 --> 0:56:37.960
<v Speaker 1>rumors about, and the other aspect of courses, they're going

0:56:38.000 --> 0:56:41.440
<v Speaker 1>to trade them guns. And I tried in that story

0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:45.520
<v Speaker 1>to explain why the Wichitas and Commanches in particular desirous

0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:49.600
<v Speaker 1>of having firearms, because they've got an enemy, the O Sages,

0:56:50.120 --> 0:56:54.400
<v Speaker 1>who are well armed from their trading partners in Saint Louis,

0:56:55.080 --> 0:56:57.879
<v Speaker 1>and the O Sages are attempting to block Saint Louis

0:56:57.920 --> 0:57:00.520
<v Speaker 1>traders from getting out to the which Taws and the

0:57:00.560 --> 0:57:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Comanches so that they can when they want to as

0:57:04.000 --> 0:57:06.920
<v Speaker 1>they do three times while Glasses with them, this trader,

0:57:06.920 --> 0:57:09.840
<v Speaker 1>Anthony Glasses living in the Witchdov villages. Three times you

0:57:09.920 --> 0:57:12.840
<v Speaker 1>O Sage is right in and just steal half the

0:57:12.880 --> 0:57:18.040
<v Speaker 1>horse herds that the Wichitas have and sort of, you know,

0:57:18.160 --> 0:57:20.000
<v Speaker 1>wave somen of a bitch at them as they're riding

0:57:20.040 --> 0:57:23.080
<v Speaker 1>away because they know that these Indians out on the

0:57:23.120 --> 0:57:24.440
<v Speaker 1>deep planes aren't well armed.

0:57:24.840 --> 0:57:30.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, a good parallel would be us today, you know,

0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:36.040
<v Speaker 3>saying to Iran, like, we don't want you to have that.

0:57:37.560 --> 0:57:40.720
<v Speaker 4>Well, we're going to block other people from Britain to you.

0:57:41.640 --> 0:57:44.720
<v Speaker 4>That's exactly the technologies that we have that we'd rather.

0:57:45.200 --> 0:57:48.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we don't want you to have that. And here

0:57:48.280 --> 0:57:53.000
<v Speaker 2>somebody else pops up and says, oh we'll trade it. Yeah,

0:57:53.000 --> 0:57:54.720
<v Speaker 2>well we'll absolutely supply you.

0:57:55.040 --> 0:57:57.880
<v Speaker 1>And so that's what the United States, that's what JEFFERSONI

0:57:57.920 --> 0:58:02.960
<v Speaker 1>and Indian policy must of it was about during these decades,

0:58:03.080 --> 0:58:06.760
<v Speaker 1>is to try to win over the tribes. And one

0:58:06.800 --> 0:58:09.080
<v Speaker 1>way to win them, the surefire way to win them

0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:13.000
<v Speaker 1>is through trade. And you know, and then there's the

0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:17.040
<v Speaker 1>secondary goal of this particular group of traders who have

0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:20.080
<v Speaker 1>heard these stories about the Indians for the last thirty

0:58:20.160 --> 0:58:24.880
<v Speaker 1>or forty years, have been talking about some remarkable, large

0:58:25.160 --> 0:58:28.400
<v Speaker 1>chunk of metal out on the plains. And what they

0:58:28.440 --> 0:58:31.320
<v Speaker 1>all think, what the Americans all think, is here's the

0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:34.560
<v Speaker 1>silver oar. We've been hearing about in the Southwest for

0:58:34.640 --> 0:58:38.040
<v Speaker 1>decades and decades and decades. And they go out and

0:58:38.120 --> 0:58:43.560
<v Speaker 1>somehow Glass is able to persuade the Wichitas and the Comanches,

0:58:43.960 --> 0:58:47.400
<v Speaker 1>probably with promises of trade of guns and so forth,

0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:52.680
<v Speaker 1>to take him to see this object. And he's they're

0:58:52.720 --> 0:58:55.680
<v Speaker 1>the first white people to ever see it. The Indians

0:58:55.680 --> 0:58:58.360
<v Speaker 1>had never let any other white people see it before.

0:58:59.240 --> 0:59:03.000
<v Speaker 4>Well, Dan things, the insights man, Yeah, you bet, we

0:59:03.040 --> 0:59:06.000
<v Speaker 4>should probably say or should we tell people, well, they're

0:59:06.040 --> 0:59:06.640
<v Speaker 4>going to hear.

0:59:06.520 --> 0:59:10.120
<v Speaker 1>What this object is. But of course what the what

0:59:10.160 --> 0:59:16.400
<v Speaker 1>the object is is it's the largest meteorite iron nickel

0:59:16.440 --> 0:59:21.160
<v Speaker 1>meteorite discovered in the world in the nineteenth century. And

0:59:21.200 --> 0:59:24.640
<v Speaker 1>these guys, these traders, hauled back to civilization thinking it

0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:32.960
<v Speaker 1>is a gigantic nugget of platinum.

0:59:30.160 --> 0:59:32.680
<v Speaker 4>With a lot of exertion, but a lot of exertion.

0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:33.240
<v Speaker 4>Ye