1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Following the Louisiana Purchase, American traders to the tribes on 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: the Red River inadvertently resolved centuries of precious metal stories 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: in the Southwest, but their discovery turned out to be 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: more a boon to global science than an avenue to 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: personal wealth. I'm Dan Flores, and this is the American West, 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: brought to you by Velvet Buck. Still in barrel, Velvet 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: Buck arrives this summer just in time for the season 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: that calls us home. 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: A portion of. 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: Every bottle supports backcountry hunters and anglers to protect public lands, 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: waters and wildlife, enjoy responsibly beyond the Earth's curve mysteries. 12 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: Sometime in the century we're in, maybe even by twenty fifty, 13 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: a nation or one of our proliferating private space companies 14 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: will fly a drone through the Valumeronaris Canyon on Mars. 15 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: Right now, America's NASA is in the lead for that honor, 16 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: having successfully put a drone in the air on Mars 17 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: and planning to fly one called Dragonfly on a future 18 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: mission to Saturn's moon Titan. But whoever explores the Valumeronneris 19 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: will have a chance to resolve all kinds of mysteries 20 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: about the biggest red rock fissure in our Solar system, 21 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: A gorge that both resembles the West's biggest, the Grand Canyon, 22 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: but absolutely dwarfs that Arizona Marble in every particular measurement. 23 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: Literally an other worldly desert landscape, the Valu Marionnaris truly 24 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: is west of everything. Also a good modern stand in 25 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: to help understand the way many explorers and map makers 26 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: thought about the American West two hundred years ago. 27 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: What's out there? 28 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: How will we feel in the close presence of a mystery? 29 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: In Mars's case, what kind of emotional reaction will we 30 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: experience watching video footage from a drone flying through a 31 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: world of soaring red spires and cliffs on an astounding scale? 32 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: Is it possible the planet is so small its horizons 33 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 1: will obscure the opposing canyon walls one from the other, 34 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: even in a gorge twenty five thousand feet deep? Was 35 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: that canyon formed by the biggest flood in Solar System history? 36 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: Was their life there then? Is their life there now? 37 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: In the case of the West, in the early eighteen hundreds, 38 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: the world was equally uninformed. Could rumors of mountains of 39 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: pure salt in the west be believed. Was there really 40 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: a single mountain from which waters flowed to the Pacific, 41 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: the Arctic, the Gulf. Were native people in the West 42 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: descendants of the lost tribes of Israel? Or did some 43 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: possibly migrate from Wales where their elephants unicorns are dragging 44 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: like water serpents. There did masses of precious metals lurk 45 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: hidden in the mountains or even lie about on the prairie, 46 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: waiting for the ambitious or the lucky to cash in 47 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: beyond all their dreams. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, 48 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: these were all possibilities in the West, which was real 49 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: because humans evolved to be curious and to be travelers. Eventually, 50 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: we'll answer our questions about Mars. We certainly answered all 51 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: the ones I just posed about the American West, But 52 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: there's one I wanted to address here more. Particularly, this 53 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: mystery spond several frontier generations to imagine easy, unfathomable riches 54 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: in the Southwest, aiding a widespread image of America as 55 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: a kind of Eden of infinite resources, an idea that 56 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: some still hold. It's a story that evokes everything that 57 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: excites us about venturing into new worlds and finding things 58 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: we absolutely never expected. In the same decades when fascinated 59 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: Americans were hearing about a mysterious Western region associated with 60 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: early mountain maned John Coulter, a place where mud pots 61 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: bubbled and scalding water spewed, or were absorbing the story 62 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: of Hue Glasses mauling by a giant bear down on 63 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: the southwestern frontier, there was another story remarkable enough to 64 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: rival those. In the years between eighteen ten and eighteen 65 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: thirty five, versions of it circulated through the saloons of 66 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: towns like Natchez, New Orleans, and Nacotish in Louisiana, and 67 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: San Antonio and Austin in Texas. Culture's hell became Yellowstone Park, 68 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: of course, and the Hugh Glass story would morph into 69 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: a modern movie called The Revenant. On the Southwestern Frontier, 70 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: the story I'm about to tell, though, eventually faded away. Ultimately, 71 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: an Eastern scientist put together what had generated such excitement 72 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: in the early eighteen hundreds, but in the West, by 73 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: then the story was almost forgotten. John Coulture and Hugh Glass, 74 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: like so many other Americans heading into the West, launched 75 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: from Saint Louis and traveled up the Missouri River. The 76 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: counterpart to Saint Louis on the southern plains was the 77 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: old French city of Nacotish in Louisiana, founded in seventeen 78 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: fourteen and the last outposts of supply on the River, 79 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: a watercourse that penetrated into the west towards the Rocky 80 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: mountains and far distant Santa Fe. For decades, French traders 81 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: had followed the Red to reach the Wichita villages several 82 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: hundred miles up river. Like the Mandans and the Aricaras 83 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: on the Missouri, the Wichitas had built fixed towns as 84 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: far up the Red as farming was possible. Catto and 85 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: speakers related to the Pawnees and sometimes called by that name, 86 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: The Wichitas freely welcomed traders and explorers, as did the 87 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: nomadic Comanchee bands in the prairies around them. Now, with 88 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: the Louisiana purchase, Americans had taken over possession of the 89 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: lower Red used to manipulating the Spanish and French against 90 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: one another for Indian affections. The Southern Plains tribes were 91 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: intrigued by this new player on the scene. As I 92 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: described in the last episode of the American West. Thomas 93 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: Jefferson's eighteen oh six attempt to send a Lewis and 94 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: Clark type exploration up the Red River had been cut 95 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: short by a Spanish force. Simultaneously with that confrontation, words 96 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: spread on the frontier that Aaron Burr, Jefferson's vice president, 97 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: who had just killed his rival Alexander Hamilton in a duel, 98 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: was fleeing the US to the southwest, ostensibly to launch 99 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: an American style revolution against the Spanish monarchy. With these provocations, 100 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: for several weeks in the winter of eighteen o six 101 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: and seven, Spanish and American armies actually circled one another 102 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: west of Nacolush in a game of bluff that never 103 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: got called. When tensions finally relaxed, Spanish officials in the 104 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: colonies of Texas and New Mexico decided that in the 105 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: future it would be good to avoid any noisy disturbances 106 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: with the Americans. As they put it, that decision allowed 107 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: American traders more freedom to penetrate the planes. By the 108 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: first decade of the eighteen hundreds, the American foot was 109 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: in the door to the southwest, and it was still pushing, 110 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: led by their point man in Nacodish doctor John Sibley, 111 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: a new Englander. President Jefferson appointed Indian agent for the 112 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 1: region in eighteen oh five. The Americans had a new plan. 113 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: If government expeditions to the west aroused Spanish suspicions, why 114 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: not invite potential Indian allies and trade partners like the 115 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: Wichitas and Comanches to come to Nakotish instead. Sibley's invitation 116 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: produced two great councils in Nacodish with the tribes of 117 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: the Southern Plains in the year eighteen oh seven, feasts 118 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: and gift giving kept by forty seven year old Sibley, 119 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: wrapping himself in an American flag before the assembled throng, 120 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: then wrap the same flag around high ranking warriors from 121 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: the western tribes. 122 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,359 Speaker 2: Sibley told the tribes. 123 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: That the Americans were natives of the same land you are, 124 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: in other words, white Indians. For their part, the Comanches 125 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: claim they had so much wealth in the form of 126 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: horses and mules that the animals were to them like grass. 127 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: But coming as far as Nakotis to trade, they averred, 128 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: was too inconvenient. So Sibley promised that if they would 129 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: spurn the Spanish and fly US flags over their villages. 130 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: He would send private traders to them in large numbers, 131 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: and unlike the Spanish, whose policies forbade arming Indians, the 132 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: Americans would freely trade guns, lead, and powder so the 133 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: tribes could hunt and prosecute their wars. As Sibley sagely 134 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: told President Jefferson, whoever furnishes Indians the best and most 135 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: satisfactory trade can always control their politics. 136 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 2: Within a few weeks of these. 137 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: Grand councils, in the town of Natchez on the east 138 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: bank of the Mississippi, a Pennsylvania immigrant and hardware store 139 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: owner there decided to take Sibley up on this offer 140 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: to the tribes. Anthony Glass was around thirty five at 141 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: the time, had recently seen his young wife pass away, 142 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: and was in a town that swirled with rumors about 143 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: the mysterious West. Some books on the Natchez trace the 144 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: famed Woodlands trail from Natchez to Kentucky and Tennessee see 145 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: Glass's hardware store doubling as a depot for outlaws on 146 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: the trace to fence stolen goods. What's more certain about 147 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: Glass is that he had watched for years as wealth 148 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: of various kinds had flowed from the West into the South. 149 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: Early in eighteen o eight, he determined that the time 150 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: was right to set out on a western expedition of 151 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: his own. He asked Sibley for a license and secured 152 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: two thousand dollars in trade goods for the journey. Sibley 153 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: was delighted enough there is good reason to believe the 154 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: Indian agent himself became an investor in the proposition. Unlike 155 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: farther north, it was not the pelts of beavers or 156 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: muskrats that drew traders to the southern plains. Indian processed 157 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: buffalo robes were available, but were too bulky and heavy 158 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: for private traders to transport. There were deer skins that 159 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: could be made into leather to be sure, and honey 160 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: from European bees spreading westward. But as Sibley and his 161 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: Comanche contacts had discussed, in the southern West, the primary 162 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: tradable wealth consisted of the hundreds of thousands of horses 163 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: running wild across the plains. In a later episode, I'll 164 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: tell the fuller story of the little known Western horse trade. 165 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: But since the early seventeen nineties, Americans like Philip Nolan 166 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: had been driving herds of wild horses that had contrived 167 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: to capture or had acquired in the Indian trade to 168 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: furnish stock for the advancing Southern frontier. That live horses 169 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: could walk themselves to market was one of their great attractions. 170 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: On the other hand, in the Southwest, there had always 171 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: been another possibility for wealth. From the start of European 172 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: interest in the region, there had been rumors of precious medals, 173 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: even of golden cities. In the fifteen thirties, the shipwrecked 174 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: spaniard Cabeza Devaca had said that natives somewhere in Texas 175 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: had presented him with bags of well the early editions 176 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: of his account called them bags of silver. A few 177 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: years after that, having failed to find cities of gold 178 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: among the Zunis and Pueblo people, Francisco Coronado and fifty 179 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: of his men travel led most of the way across 180 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: the southern plains because a clever and manipulative native informant 181 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: told them that in Quaverra, the Wichita country, the Indian 182 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: leaders wore bracelets of metal. Carnado interpreted that to mean 183 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: silver or gold, until in Quavera he met a Wichita 184 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: headman wearing a metal necklace. The necklace was made of copper. 185 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: But as the American frontier had advanced past the Mississippi, 186 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: these stories did not go away, and in the seventeen 187 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: seventies they were actually joined by a fresh version, this 188 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: time from a source that seemed unusually reliable. 189 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: Word went out that the. 190 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: Highly experienced French trader from Nacanus Athena's day Messiree had 191 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: returned from a foray up the Red River in seventeen 192 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: seventy two with an account of widespread Indian excitement over 193 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: what the frenchman heard was a giant mass of silvery 194 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: metal out on the disc planes. This mystery was apparently 195 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: located somewhere on the Comancheria in Comanche Land, but a 196 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: Wichita Indian claimed to be its discoverer. A band of 197 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: Pawnees from Nebraska were said to have journeyed hundreds of 198 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: miles to see the phenomenon and had proclaimed it a deity. 199 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: Perhaps these stories were just misunderstood exaggerations, like those of Cabeza, 200 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: Devaka or Coronado. But maybe there was something truly valuable 201 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: out there in the vast distances towards the sunset at 202 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: the Grand councils in eighteen oh seven. Sibley had naturally 203 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: inquired what the Indians knew of such stories. One of 204 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: the Comanche headman, who had wrapped himself in the American flag, 205 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: knew the correct response to a question like that. Of course, 206 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: he said, in their country there was silver or plenty. 207 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: It's difficult now to know exactly what Sibilan or Anthony 208 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: Glass believed a journey to the interior might ultimately reveal 209 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: in the West, but at the time Orleans Territorial Governor 210 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: William Clayburn was highly suspicious Sibley, the governor claimed, accurately, 211 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: was supplying Glass with US flags to carry to Indians 212 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: whom the Spanish government believed. 213 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: To be their subjects. With respect to Glass, who had. 214 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: Decided to outfit himself with a military jacket and dress sword, 215 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: Clayburn heard that Sibley was now referring to the hardware 216 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: store owner as Captain Glass. Of course, Sibley rightly believed 217 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: that as Indian agent, he was furthering Jefferson's own policies 218 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: towards the Southwest, but it was particularly annoying when Clayburn 219 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: further argued to Washington that while Glass portrayed himself as 220 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: a horse trader. The Glasses party true intent was to 221 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: conduct a silver mine expedition. Whatever else Glass had in 222 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: mind when he assembled his outfit and party for an 223 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: early July eighteen oh eight departure up the Red River, 224 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: he intended to trade. His outfit included sixteen pack horses 225 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: to ferry that two thousand dollars in trade goods, along 226 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: with a remuda of thirty two additional mounts. His party 227 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: was hardly an invading army. There were only eleven of them. 228 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: Among them were three pass veterans of the Red River trade, 229 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: a mixed blood interpreter Joseph Lucas whose Indian name was Tallapoon, 230 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: and a pair of horse traders named John Davis and 231 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: William Alexander, who had been among the Wichitas and Comanches 232 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: two years earlier. 233 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: The party also. 234 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: Included a fifteen year old named Peter Young and a 235 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: man named George Shamp who was highly excited about the 236 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: silver ore Davis and Alexander claimed to have seen on 237 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: their past expeditions. The root Glass plan involved an eastern 238 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: detour around the Great Raft, the enormous log jam that 239 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: blocked the Red River above Nakaish, and then a crossing 240 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: of the Red through a bank side village of newly 241 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: immigrated Creek Indians known as Koshatas. At that point they 242 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: would fall onto the regular Indian trail that led from 243 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: the lower Red. 244 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: To the Wichita towns far up river. 245 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: Once Stead looped the Great Raft, their course would be northwesterly, 246 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: not intersecting the Red River itself again until they were 247 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: nearly to the Wichita villages. Two centuries later. We know 248 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: what happened during the eight months Glass and his party 249 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: were in the West, what the Red River country was like, 250 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: the specific people they met, what Glass in others experience 251 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: living with Indians, and how the Americans reacted to an 252 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: astounding mystery. Because of a simple thing, Glass kept a 253 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: journal of the trip. In fact, Sibley had insisted that 254 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: Glass regularly put down the details of his journey. As 255 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: a store owner. Glass was literate, and there's a good 256 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: chance few, if any of the rest of the party were. 257 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: Glass's journal then is a kind of time travel window 258 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: into how the West struck this group of travelers into 259 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: the unknown. Like most people who journeyed across the West 260 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: in those days, Glasses party intended to live off the land, 261 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: but following an ancient Indian trail did not necessarily make 262 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: that easy. There was almost no wildlife in the vicinity 263 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: of the Kashata village on the Red and with a 264 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: party of Catto Indians ahead of them on the trace 265 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: through Northeast Texas, deer and other animals were spooked. Three 266 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: weeks of travel, however, gradually brought the party out of 267 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: the pinewood and into the tall grass prairies at the 268 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: edge of the Great Plains. The whole country was now 269 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: becoming a gently rolling parkland populated with brand new creatures 270 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: prairie chickens, wild horses, and prairie dogs, all the first 271 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: Glass had ever seen. Within a month's travel, they were 272 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: north of present Dallas, surrounded by great numbers of wild horses, 273 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: as Glass put it, and feasting daily on fresh buffalo glasses. 274 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: Party crossed to the north side of the Red River 275 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: on August eighth. He found the country remarkably pleasant, as 276 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: he said, with herds of bison in sight everywhere. They looked, 277 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: deer as tame as domestic stop since no one bothered 278 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: to hunt them, and the Wichita towns now only fifty 279 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: miles up River. Three days later, a large party of 280 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: well mounted Indians escorted the Americans into their villages. A 281 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: trio of town's arrayed on both banks of the Red 282 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: River in a setting Glass described as beautiful, the land 283 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: of first quality, he said, with excellent abundant springs of water. 284 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: Like the Mandans and Ricaras on the Missouri. These divisions 285 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: of the Wichitas were agricultural people, who Glass soon realized 286 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: grew large quantities of corn, beans, pumpkins, and melons, so 287 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: they had a surplus to trade for meat with their 288 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: buffalo hunting allies, the Comanches. Their towns were made up 289 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: of framed thatched houses, as Glass put it, in the 290 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: form of a sugar loaf seventy or eighty feet in 291 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: diameter at the base and thirty or forty feet high. 292 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: Each of the towns had a civil chief, but there 293 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: was a presiding grand chief, a waha Kai or great bear, 294 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: who struck Glass as about fifty years old. When Glass 295 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: delivered his speech to the assembled tribe extolling American friendship, 296 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: it was clear Awa was the first personality among them, 297 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: as responsible as Sibley for making glasses expedition possible. That 298 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: reality brought immediate rewards. The chief is in our mess, 299 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: Glass confided in his journal, and we want for nothing 300 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: the town affords and live in plenty. Glass and most 301 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: of his men spent the rest of August and half 302 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: of September trading for Indian horses and marveling at Wichita culture. 303 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: At one point they watched as mounted bow wielding Wichita 304 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: hunters killed every last animal from a herd of forty 305 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: one buffalo. They also formed a good sense of why 306 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: the Wichitas and Comanches were so eager to trade for firearms. 307 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: On three different occasions, Glass woke to discover that an 308 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: enemy of the Wichitas, the Osages, had raided the villages 309 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: and stolen horses from their communal herds, including many of 310 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: the ones he had only just bought. In the third instance, 311 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: all lies with astonishment and fury that an Osage raider 312 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: was riding what he called a remarkable paint horse that 313 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: used to be my own riding horse. The o Sages 314 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: were well supplied with guns from American traders out of 315 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: Saint Louis, but when the Wichitas pursued the raiders, only 316 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: a third of the Wichita party could muster firearms of 317 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: any kind. In the weeks just before the Americans had arrived, 318 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: Glass learned the Osages had made off with five hundred 319 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: Wichita horses in broad daylight. The raiders were so well 320 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: armed the Witchitals had merely watched in sullen silence, unable 321 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: to raise any resistance. 322 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: To the outrage. 323 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: While Alexander and Davis had now departed for a camp 324 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: of Comanches they knew from prior trips West Glass had 325 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: other things on his mind. For one thing, he had 326 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: made friends among the Wichitas, specifically with an Indian couple, 327 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: a highly distinguished warrior named Tatsuk, a brave, subtle, and 328 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: intrepid man, Glass said, who in fact was a Spaniard 329 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: captured as a child and raised as an Indian, and 330 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: along with his wife, who Glass described as a Pawnee woman, 331 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 1: just as remarkable for her address and intrigue. And Glass 332 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: was discovering he was living among a people famous for 333 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: their sexual liberation. The Wichitas are great libertines, both men 334 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: and women, the American wrote, not addicted to jealousy, and 335 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: nothing is more common than for a man to loan 336 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: or hire out his wife, particularly to strangers who visit 337 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,719 Speaker 1: the nation. As Glass confessed in his journal, this couple 338 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: became my most intimate acquaintance. It seems to have been 339 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: these friends. Glass began to interrogate about the mystery that 340 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: had obviously played some role in launching his expedition. On 341 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: September eighteenth and nineteenth, he confided in his journal that 342 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: he had been informed of a remarkable piece of metal 343 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: some days journey distant to the southward on the waters 344 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: of River Brazos. 345 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 2: Later, he wrote, hearing more of. 346 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: This singular metal, to which they attributed singular virtues and 347 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: curing diseases, I resolved to obtain permission to see it 348 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: if I could, and proposed to them to go with me. 349 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: While they had known about this mystery for at least 350 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: four decades, the Red River tribes had never allowed a 351 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: white man to lay eyes on it. Various wichitas Glass 352 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: approached with his hope to see the object very likely 353 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: the headman Awagkai, were resolute in their refusal. So Glass 354 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: turned to the couple he had befriended, and ultimately elicited 355 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: from them a promise to show him the tantalizing mystery. 356 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: Scribbling in his journal by firelight, he put his hopes 357 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: this way, the more I heard about the object, the 358 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: more my anxiety was increased, suspecting from their account of 359 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: it and great veneration for it, it might be platina, platinum, 360 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: or something of great value. Two weeks later, on October 361 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: of eighteen oh eight, Glass and a party of Wichita's 362 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: that included his new friend Tatasuk, the grand chief Owa Kai, 363 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: and the Wichita warrior who had found the object decades earlier, 364 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: crossed the Red River and headed in a southwesterly direction 365 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: towards a Comanche village in this country. 366 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 2: Tatasuk told him they would. 367 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: Find the mysterious mass that had now become an obsession 368 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: for Glass and his men. In the Comanche village, things 369 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: at first did not go well. Leaders objected the mystery, 370 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: after all, was on their land. After some altercation, Glass wrote, 371 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: it was finally agreed that if it should turn out 372 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,239 Speaker 1: to be of considerable value, what it brought should be 373 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: divided between both Comanches and Wichitas. But at that point 374 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: the mystery's original discoverer was overcome with doubt, and I 375 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: was obliged to flatter and bribe him to go on, 376 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: Glass confessed. Here is how Glass described the remarkable events 377 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 1: that culminated on October fourteenth, eighteen oh eight. Our whole 378 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: party now became very numerous, containing of men and women 379 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: and children, near one thousand souls and three times that 380 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: number of horses and mules. Moving slowly on to the west, 381 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: crossing the River Brazos, about fifty miles, we approached the 382 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: place where the metal was, the Indians observing considerable ceremony 383 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: as they approached. As they neared the phenomenon across open prairie, 384 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: what the Americans first saw was a wide variety of 385 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 1: native offerings surrounding the object in every direction. 386 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 2: At the center of the. 387 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: Pipes, beads, and bags of pollen, their eyes fell on 388 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: a dimpled, blackish metal object resting on the surface of 389 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: the ground and balanced on its heaviest end. It was 390 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: roughly four feet tall by two feet wide, and massively heavy. 391 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: The Indians were reverent. The Americans mystified a magnet glass 392 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: had brought along showed an attraction to the object, but 393 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: they could see no rust on it anywhere it could 394 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: be indented. It was malleable enough for the Indians to 395 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: fashion jewelry and arrowpoints from it, and it peeled like 396 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: a bell when struck rubbing, it produced a brilliant polish, 397 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: and it gave off sparks when struck with a flint. 398 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: But it was untarnished, which meant it could not be 399 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: a giant nugget of silver. 400 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 2: But what then? In wonder? 401 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: Glass contrived to file off some samples. Then their vast 402 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: party rode away, leaving the object to its splendid isolation. 403 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: The stories of Anthony Glass and of this baffling Western 404 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: mystery began to unwine from one another at this point. 405 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: Except for his interpreter and the teenager Peter Young, the 406 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: rest of glasses party now departed with their horses for Louisiana, 407 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: with secret plans, several of them began to formulate. Initially, 408 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: Glass traveled farther south to trade with the Comanche bands 409 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: along the Colorado River of Texas. By the first of 410 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: eighteen oh nine, he had turned back towards the wichitav villages, 411 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: first pausing in the Grand Prairie west of today's Fort 412 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: Worth to try his hand at driving and corralling the 413 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: thousands of wild mustangs there. By late February he was 414 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: back in the Wichita towns, and on March the twenty first, 415 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: he Lucas and Young finally set out for Nacolus with 416 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: their horse herd. They arrived in May to discover that 417 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: their adventures had inflamed the whole frontier. Doctor Sibley was 418 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: as excited as the men in the taverns, and quickly 419 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: posted this report to his superiors in Washington. Captain Glass 420 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: has just returned here from a trading voyage towards the 421 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: head of Red River. During his travels and residents amongst 422 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: the Indians, where he spent more than eight months, he 423 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: was conducted by Indians to a place where he saw 424 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: in large masses of many thousands of pounds weight. A 425 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: singular kind of mineral and color resembles iron, but whiter. 426 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,719 Speaker 1: It is hard as steel, yet malleable as gold or silver. 427 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: It is obedient to the magnet, but less so than iron. 428 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: It is not flexible, and the greatest heat that can 429 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: be produced in a blacksmith's furnace. It will neither corrode 430 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: nor rust by exposure to the atmosphere. It receives a 431 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: polish as brilliant as a diamond, and of a quick 432 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: silver color. If it is not platina or platinum. 433 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: I do not know what it is. 434 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: Simply had sent a sample to Philadelphia to be essayed. 435 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 2: He wrote. 436 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, what he had heard might be one hundred thousand 437 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: pounds of it, yet lay out on the distant prairie, 438 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: a giant nugget of platinum. That was the consensus, and 439 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: not just among the frontier traders. Even Sibly, the best 440 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: educated man on the scene, agreed. So there was nothing 441 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: for it but to go fetch the Red River mystery 442 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: back to civilization, and as fast as possible. In terms 443 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: of who would do that and how, though there was 444 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: no consensus, Glass for his part, opted out. He'd had 445 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: his fill of the planes and life with the Indians, 446 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: but the rest of his party had not, and instead 447 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: of cooperating with one another, they formed two rival groups 448 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: for in effect a mining rush. One party, launched from 449 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: Nakelash and led by George Shamp and William Alexander, included 450 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: five of the original Glass party. Beyond a supply of rifles, ammunition, 451 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: and blankets, the exact quantity of trade goods they took 452 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: haven't come down to us, only that they had wealthy benefactors, 453 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: including the Indian agent doctor Sibley. They set out in 454 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: the early summer of eighteen oh nine. The other party, 455 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: led by another Glass party man John David, recruited largely 456 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: from Natchez in Mississippi, and was the first to arrive 457 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: at the location of the mystery mass. Lacking a means 458 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: to transport it, however, they attempted to hide it from 459 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: the other party, who soon enough appeared with the Wichita 460 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: and Comanche owners, with whom they had apparently struck a 461 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: trade deal. The Shamp Alexander party had managed to get 462 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: a wagon to the spot, and levering the huge and 463 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: heavy mass into the buckboard, they now set out for 464 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: the Red River with the plan of floating it to Nacolush. 465 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: The field had become even more crowded, though, word reached 466 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: them that a fifty two men Spanish cavalry from San 467 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: Antonio was coming after them with the intent of arresting 468 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: American interlopers illegally mining Platina in Spanish Texas. Setting fire 469 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: to the planes behind them, Shamp's party made it to 470 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: the Red Fashioned a barge and headed downriver. 471 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: They and their arrived to wild. 472 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: Excitement in Nacotish on June fourth of eighteen ten. For 473 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: nearly a year, the mysterious object resided in Nacotish, while 474 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: various would be investors offered varying sums to buy the 475 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: shares from the retrieving party. In eighteen eleven, Sibley and 476 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: others arranged to boat the baffling object to New Orleans, 477 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: accompanied by two members of the shamp Alexander party. There 478 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: it was loaded aboard a vessel bound for New York 479 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: so it could be properly assayed. Within a year, Sibley 480 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: assembled the anxious members of the group that had labored 481 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: to retrieve the mass and relayed very bad news. The 482 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: medal had assayed as some kind of alloyed iron. After 483 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: all their effort and all the excitement, the object had 484 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: no value. Of course, an essay determining that the object 485 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: was neither silver nor platinum did not answer the elephant 486 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: in the room question, what on Earth was it? In fact, 487 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't of Earth after all, and a lucky coincidence, 488 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: The retrieval of the West's most confounding object took place 489 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: in the first decade in human history when science was 490 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: able to answer a question like that. In eighteen oh three, 491 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: residents of the village of Le Guel, France, had reported 492 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: that during a night of flying stars, stones had rained 493 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: from the sky onto their town. Four years later, a 494 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: Yale professor named Benjamin Sillimon happened to be on hand 495 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: to see a similar shower of debris from the heavens 496 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: near western Connecticut. Sillimon was dumbfounded and at a loss, 497 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: arguing that the pieces must have broken off from the 498 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: Moon or been discharged by some distant volcanic eruption. Following 499 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: the lead of French scientists, he now believed such objects 500 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: were related to shooting stars or meteors. However, by eighteen 501 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: oh eight, scientists were writing in American journals and using 502 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: the term meteorites to refer to debris from the sky, 503 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: gaining access to the metallic mass. In eighteen fourteen, a 504 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: newly aware professor Sillimon published the first in a series 505 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: of experiments on it and surmised that it too was 506 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: a meteorite. He labeled it a siderite, the new term 507 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: for an iron nickel alloy meteorite. Since it hadn't been embedded, 508 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: it was likely a direct motion object that fell at 509 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: low velocity between midnight and noon in the direction of 510 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: the Earth's spin. Named Red River, the one thousand, six 511 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five pound mass became the prize meteorite 512 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: and the largest in the world for most of the 513 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. In an effort to recreate its discovery in 514 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: the eighteen twenties, Silimon interviewed doctor Sibley and Nacadish and 515 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: prevailed on him to send along a copy of Glasses 516 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: Journal with the first description anyone had written of this mystery. 517 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 2: From the West. 518 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: Science may have been delighted with Red River, but the 519 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: frontier traders were never satisfied with this outcome. The American 520 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: geographer William Darby was in Nacotish when Sibley delivered the 521 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 1: bad news, and Darby. 522 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 2: Spoke to two of them. 523 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: They were convinced they had been swindled. In Darby's opinion, 524 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: the persons engaged were in general too ignorant to understand 525 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: the decisive results of such tests and unwilling to abandon 526 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: a pleasing delusion. 527 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: The result was. 528 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: That, for at least the next two decades, accounts of 529 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: silver and platina out on the plains became an unending 530 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: frontier conversation. 531 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 2: In the Southwest. 532 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: Ordinary history has preserved those conversations, primarily in the form 533 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: of the lost silver Mine of Alamo casualty Jim Bowie. 534 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 2: As for the. 535 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: Native people, while their most pressing need when the Americans 536 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: arrived was clearly for the weaponry Spanish trade denied them, 537 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: they do appear to have known that the giant meteorite 538 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: was associated with shooting stars, what the Wichitas called the 539 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: light that flies. That heavenly association, plus the essential mystery 540 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: of the object makes me think their instinct to venerate 541 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: it was hardly naive. They very well may have sent 542 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: something profound about it. Among our current hypotheses for how 543 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: life arose on Earth, one with a strong following involves meteorites. 544 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: A striking piece of evidence for their possible role in 545 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 1: launching life on Earth comes from the discovery that, while 546 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: biology can be equally either left handed or right handed, 547 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: all organic molecules on Earth, even our NA and DNA, 548 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: are asymmetrically left handed, which makes meteorites particularly intriguing. Space 549 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 1: derived organic molecules brought to Earth by meteorites have been 550 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: gathered from all over the world, and like earthly life itself, 551 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: they show a strong orientation for left handedness. 552 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 3: Dan. 553 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 2: A thing you mentioned. 554 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 4: Is what's the name of the canyon on Mars, the 555 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 4: v a Ma nears, you should if you can take 556 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 4: a stab at explaining again, like how big it is. 557 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 4: But the thing that I took me a minute to 558 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 4: realize what you're saying is that I'm trying to equate 559 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 4: it to like if you're standing on the shore, like 560 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 4: on our Earth, if you're standing on a shore line. 561 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 2: Looking out in the. 562 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 4: Ocean, there's a couple of reasons why you can't see 563 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 4: the next continent. But one of them is that the 564 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 4: Earth rolls off right, and which you can. You know, 565 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 4: you can kind of demonstrate with certain objects where the 566 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 4: curvature of the Earth gets in the way. 567 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 2: Even if you can see island sometimes can appear out 568 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 2: of the water. 569 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 4: Even if you could see infinity, you still wouldn't see 570 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 4: the other continent because the curvature of the Earth throws 571 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 4: you off. But it took me a minute to realize 572 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 4: that you're saying that, like on Mars, that this canyon 573 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 4: could be so big that on one side of the 574 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 4: canyon looking across be the same as standing on the 575 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,919 Speaker 4: continental shelf. Yeah, and you might see the other side. 576 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 2: You couldn't see that. 577 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,959 Speaker 4: I had to keep like think about that being like, oh, yeah, 578 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 4: that's a great point. 579 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 580 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: So you know, when you're in the Grand Canyon, obviously 581 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: you can see the other side. You can see the 582 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: cliffs on the other side. If you're on the south rim, 583 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: you can see the cliffs on the other side, And 584 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: when you're down in the bottom of it, you can 585 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: see the cliffs on both sides. What one of the 586 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: questions about this canyon, which is the largest canyon in 587 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: the Solar System, and you know, I am invoking it 588 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 1: because this is one of those mysteries that's out there, 589 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: sort of like the kind of mysteries that the West 590 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: presented in eighteen hundred. But one of the mysteries about 591 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: this valum Mariner's Canyon, which is this gigantic canyon twenty 592 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: five thousand feet deep. 593 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 2: Is that Mars is so small that the question is whether. 594 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: Or not you can stand at the foot of the 595 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: cliffs on one side and actually see the cliffs on 596 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: the other side of the canyon. Even though it is 597 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: a perfectly vertical canyon with the two cliffs opposing one another, 598 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: the curve of the planet is so sharp that it 599 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: may put the other side out of view. 600 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, you have flat earthers if you had 601 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 4: flat Mars ors that get there and they'd be like, ah, there. 602 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 2: It is, I knew it. It does end. 603 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's so my As I said, the reason 604 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,959 Speaker 1: I was invoking that is because it's one of those 605 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: mysteries that we're probably going to know the answer to 606 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: in another fifty or sixty years, once we have drones 607 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: flying around Mars. And it's to me kind of analogous 608 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: to some of the things that people were wondering about 609 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,800 Speaker 1: with respect to the West in eighteen hundred. 610 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: What's out there and. 611 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: What kind of strange things are we going to encounter 612 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: that have a logical explanation that now seem to be 613 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: you know, probably not logical at all. 614 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 4: And I thought it was a great parallel Yeah, well, yeah, 615 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 4: like our questions about our questions about Mars being a 616 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 4: great parallel to and then plus all the fantastical ideas people. 617 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: Had, Yeah, they had a lot of fantastical ideas, and 618 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, and the one I resolved on was, you know, 619 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:20,319 Speaker 1: this fairly little known story, but it's my analogy is 620 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 1: that it was kind of the Southern West version of 621 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: Culter's Hell, where John Coulter comes back after Lewis and 622 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,720 Speaker 1: Clark expedition and goes into what is present day Wyoming 623 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: in Montana, and he encounters a place that a lot 624 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: of people didn't believe existed because his descriptions of it 625 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: seemed to be just, you know, really far out of line. 626 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: And this was a story from the southern Prairies that 627 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: kind of produced that same effect. What in the world 628 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: is this object that's out there that has Native people 629 00:42:55,640 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: so excited? And is it truly the realization of this 630 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: long standing myth of the Southwest harboring all kinds of 631 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:14,839 Speaker 1: precious metals that you know, had sent everybody from Cobza, 632 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: well not Cobza to Vaca really because he sort of 633 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: starts the whole idea of there being precious metals in 634 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: the in the West. But uh, certainly Coronado. Coronado's expedition 635 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: was all about the idea that, uh, just as in 636 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: Mexico and in Peru, probably the American Southwest held untold, 637 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: unfathomable riches. And that's sort of the kind of genre 638 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: that this particular story plays in. 639 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 5: I think, Dan, when I read this, the comparison to 640 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 5: Mars and the the Canyon, it triggered for me a 641 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 5: memory of house sitting for you one summer in the 642 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 5: Bitter Root, and I went into the shed where he 643 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 5: kept the batteries for Solar system and on the wall, 644 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 5: it's one of my favorite memories of that place. There's 645 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 5: just a little yellowed image and underneath you had hand 646 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 5: labeled it Olympus Mons, the largest mountain in the Solar System, 647 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 5: and then parentheses Mars and there's no other context and Sydney. 648 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 5: It's been a while trying to figure out why that 649 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 5: was there, but. 650 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 2: It was a place to put it. 651 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the Solar But I the next thought I 652 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: had was. 653 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,919 Speaker 5: Like, you have a special fascination with outer space, and 654 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 5: there are all these parallels and pop cultures. 655 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:40,839 Speaker 3: I didn't. 656 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,720 Speaker 5: I just remember talking about when the movie John Carter 657 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 5: from Mars came out. You were excited for that because 658 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 5: it was vastly disappointed, vastly disappointed. But like all this 659 00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 5: early sci fi culture drew so strongly on the parallel 660 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 5: to the West. And yeah, I don't know if you 661 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,319 Speaker 5: can expand on that, but I mean it's sort of 662 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 5: an under It's one of those things where when you 663 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 5: take a step back and re examine what you know, 664 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 5: it makes sense, and you see these parallels clearly, but 665 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 5: it's something that didn't really occur to me naturally. 666 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 2: Well. 667 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have always probably been fascinated with. 668 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 2: Space and space. 669 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,760 Speaker 1: Expiration, probably because I was one of the Star Trek 670 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: kids in the sixties. I mean I was probably sixteen 671 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 1: years old or something when Star Trek was first on, 672 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 1: and that was you know, that sort of really compelled me, 673 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: I think, to be interested in space. 674 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 2: But it also does have. 675 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,320 Speaker 1: A space expiration and Western exploration, to me, are pretty 676 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: strong analogs of one another, because there's the whole idea 677 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: of going into a country that you don't know anything about, 678 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: and I think humans have done that. We've done that 679 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 1: ever since. We Africa and went to the Middle East, 680 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: and went to Europe and went to Asia and finally 681 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: found the America's I mean, there's always been that idea 682 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: of discovery and moving into new realms and finding new things, 683 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: new creatures, new landscapes, new kinds of landforms, and so yeah, 684 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 1: that you know, and I know. 685 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 2: I'm not alone in that. 686 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,320 Speaker 1: I mean Kim Stanley Robinson, you know, the who's probably 687 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: the best science fiction writer of our time. In his 688 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: Great Trilogy Red Mars, Blue Mars, and Green Mars. His 689 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: primary character in the first of those those books is 690 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: a guy named John Boone, and John Boone has this 691 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: wonderful experience of getting to go out in a rover 692 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: with a laptop and do some sort of drug I'm 693 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: not sure, I don't remember what they call it, but 694 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: it's some sort of mine expanse drug and driving out 695 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: through the landscapes of Mars and recording his impressions, you know, 696 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: of a kind of a discovery of Martian terrain and 697 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: Martian landforms. So yeah, there's probably in writing a piece 698 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: like this, given the conclusion where that's the story goes. 699 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: And I tried deliberately not to reveal what this object 700 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: was out there until we get to the end of 701 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: the story because I want there, wanted there to be 702 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,799 Speaker 1: a little bit of a mystery about what in the 703 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: world is this this object that is compelling all this 704 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,719 Speaker 1: fascination by these traders who are going west. But yeah, 705 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: because of its association. 706 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 2: With with space, Yeah. 707 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 1: I clearly, you know, was willing to invoke Mars and 708 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,800 Speaker 1: the and the giant canyon on Mars. 709 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 4: You know what, when you when you read about you 710 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,799 Speaker 4: mentioned Coronado, and you read about coronat Or and you 711 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 4: get this sense of I use the word fantastical or 712 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 4: like they have these it seems like they're driven by 713 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,560 Speaker 4: these like overblown expectations, cities of gold and all this. 714 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,880 Speaker 4: But if you look at like what they were able 715 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,279 Speaker 4: to sack from the Aztecs, I mean, was it overblown jonesy? Like, 716 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,880 Speaker 4: wasn't what they actually what the Spanish actually like pulled 717 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 4: out of the Aztec Empire? I mean that was like 718 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,399 Speaker 4: staggering wealth for real, right. 719 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,400 Speaker 1: It was staggering wealth in fact, So the combination of 720 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 1: the sacking of the Assec Empire and the destruction of 721 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:41,319 Speaker 1: the Incas in Peru produced two hundred times over the 722 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: amount of gold and silver that had ever been known 723 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: in the Old world. So when Spain does that, of course, 724 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,719 Speaker 1: and what that does is that it sets up this 725 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,719 Speaker 1: expectation that these are not the only two places there 726 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: are going to be. And so that's why Spain and 727 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: these Spanish explorers like Carnado or so convinced that farther 728 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: north there's going to be another one of these grand discoveries. 729 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 4: Because you look at him and party wants to be 730 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 4: like you idiots. 731 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 2: But then on their head they're like, well, look, yeah, 732 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 2: look what happened. 733 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, so two hundred times more, two. 734 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: Hundred times the amount of gold and silver that had 735 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: existed in the Old world came out of those mines 736 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 1: and in the New world. And so it was yeah, 737 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:32,160 Speaker 1: it was Yeah, it was a spectacular discovery. And so 738 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons you can look at someone 739 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: like Carnado and feel a certain sympathy for his expectation. 740 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: And that's why you know he takes when he doesn't 741 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: find cities of gold at Zooni. He hears word, as 742 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: I describe him, from this very clever and manipulative native 743 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: informant that far out on the great Plains, on the prairies, 744 00:49:55,239 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: there is a civilization where its leaders wear metal ornaments, 745 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,359 Speaker 1: necklaces and bracelets and various kinds of other ornaments. And 746 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: so he Cornado takes fifty of his men and strikes 747 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: out from New Mexico across the plains and travels all 748 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 1: the way into present day Kansas on the Arkansas River 749 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,520 Speaker 1: and finds this country Quaverra, which is the country of 750 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: the Wichita Indians when they were living up on the 751 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 1: Arkansas and as I say in the Peace, he does 752 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: find civil leaders who are wearing jewelry, but it's bronze, 753 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: it's copper, it's stuff. It's copper actually from the mines 754 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:41,000 Speaker 1: up around Lake Superior. So the story, and that's kind 755 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,759 Speaker 1: of what propels the primary story in this piece, is 756 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 1: that there is something. It's just when you see it 757 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:55,080 Speaker 1: through the eyes of expectation, you're very likely going to 758 00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: be disappointed. As these traders from Louisiana and Missus Zippy who 759 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,760 Speaker 1: go to this tremendous effort to haul back this object 760 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,879 Speaker 1: from the Southern pliance had up being they're disappointed. 761 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 2: Ultimately it doesn't pay off. 762 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:15,520 Speaker 5: For one of the people that you write about in 763 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:22,360 Speaker 5: this in this piece is I think George Sibley, John Sibley, 764 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 5: Doctor John's. Yeah, the Indian agent. And that's a term 765 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:32,279 Speaker 5: that you see again and again in accounts from the 766 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:37,799 Speaker 5: nineteenth nineteenth century, you know, US West history, and it's 767 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:42,359 Speaker 5: also one that doesn't really have a contemporary parallel, and 768 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 5: it's I wonder if you could sort of unpack that 769 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 5: for people that haven't encountered it before, because it's sort 770 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:54,920 Speaker 5: of a diplomat, sort of a trade controlling access to 771 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 5: food stuffs and resources, especially as the reservation. 772 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 4: You're sometimes sometimes an exploiter and. 773 00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly, I mean tremendously powerful people. 774 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were tremendously powerful. And doctor John Sibley of 775 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:15,239 Speaker 1: Louisiana was a kind of a prototypical Indian agent. He 776 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,880 Speaker 1: was one of the very first ones, and his duties 777 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,160 Speaker 1: were rather more limited than what we associate with later 778 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 1: Indian agents, say after the Civil War, where they are 779 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: doing things like providing food in order to enable reservation 780 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: people who have been placed on reservations to survive, and 781 00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:40,800 Speaker 1: they're acting in effect, the Indian agent's role is to 782 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:45,520 Speaker 1: act as kind of a diplomatic go between between the 783 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:50,480 Speaker 1: government in Washington and the native people themselves. And so 784 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: this fellow John Sibley is I mean, he's not the 785 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: only one. There are Indian agents, particularly appointed by the 786 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 1: Jefferson administration in many places. William Clark becomes an Indian 787 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,200 Speaker 1: agent after the Lewis and Clark expedition is over. He's 788 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,840 Speaker 1: in charge of he's the representative and the diplomat to 789 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,600 Speaker 1: the Indians of the Missouri River country. So these people 790 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 1: are attempting to execute Washington's geopolitical strategy for the Louisiana 791 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 1: Purchase in the West. And the reason Sibley becomes important 792 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,040 Speaker 1: is because he's the Indian agent of a part of 793 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: the West in the early nineteenth century where the boundaries 794 00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,439 Speaker 1: are disputed between Spain and the United States. And that's 795 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,719 Speaker 1: why when I talked in one of the last episodes 796 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 1: about that Jeffersonian expedition up the Red River that got 797 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,759 Speaker 1: turned around by Spain, that's the milieu in the context 798 00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,719 Speaker 1: in which Sibley is operating. So Washington has just attempted 799 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 1: to explore the southern parts of the Louisiana Purchase, and 800 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: the official Jeffersonian expedition has been blocked by a Spanish 801 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: force and turned around and sent back. And so what 802 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,839 Speaker 1: Sibley is attempting to do is to execute Jeffersonian policy 803 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 1: for the West in a place where everything is vague 804 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,640 Speaker 1: and the boundaries are not clear. And what he's attempting 805 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:30,359 Speaker 1: to do then is to win over the tribes of 806 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:35,319 Speaker 1: the deep plains of the southern West. And that's really 807 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: as far as his ideas extend. Nobody knows exactly how 808 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,839 Speaker 1: far out the true Southwest, say Santa Fe is, which 809 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,680 Speaker 1: everybody knows is in possession of Spain. That seems to 810 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,360 Speaker 1: be rather beyond the reach of somebody like Sibley, But 811 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,839 Speaker 1: he knows that up a river like the Red River 812 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 1: or the Arkansas, there are all these tribes on the plains. 813 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: So what he's trying to do is he's trying to 814 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: win them away from from Spanish control to American control. 815 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,399 Speaker 1: And his primary attempt in doing that is to send 816 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,880 Speaker 1: these traders out with the promise of two things. If you, 817 00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,880 Speaker 1: the Wichitas or the Comanches, will take down the Spanish 818 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,399 Speaker 1: flags flying over your villages and run American flags United 819 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 1: States flags up your flag poles, and sort of declare 820 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:27,520 Speaker 1: yourselves to be Indians of the United States, then what 821 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: we're going to do in return is we're going to 822 00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,239 Speaker 1: set you up with a trade. If you recall that 823 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: sort of crafty line where he simply says something like 824 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:45,879 Speaker 1: whoever offers Indians the best trade can always control their politics. 825 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,359 Speaker 1: What we're going to do is send traders out. And 826 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,759 Speaker 1: we know that Spain has not traded guns and ammunition 827 00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,960 Speaker 1: to you. That's against the imperial policy of the Spanish Empire. 828 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,120 Speaker 1: They do not arm their native people. They try to 829 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:07,360 Speaker 1: convert them into being agriculturists and not hunters, and as Americans, 830 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,200 Speaker 1: we're going to offer you guns and ammunition. We're going 831 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,480 Speaker 1: to trade guns to you. And so that's what a 832 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:17,920 Speaker 1: lot of this story hinges around, is simply sending a 833 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:22,520 Speaker 1: trading expedition out to the Wichitas and the Comanches with 834 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: the promise that I mean, what the traders are going 835 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,759 Speaker 1: for is they're bringing back horses that they've traded for, 836 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:34,560 Speaker 1: plus whatever the strange object is that everybody has heard 837 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,960 Speaker 1: rumors about, and the other aspect of courses, they're going 838 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,440 Speaker 1: to trade them guns. And I tried in that story 839 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:45,520 Speaker 1: to explain why the Wichitas and Commanches in particular desirous 840 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: of having firearms, because they've got an enemy, the O Sages, 841 00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,400 Speaker 1: who are well armed from their trading partners in Saint Louis, 842 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,879 Speaker 1: and the O Sages are attempting to block Saint Louis 843 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,520 Speaker 1: traders from getting out to the which Taws and the 844 00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,960 Speaker 1: Comanches so that they can when they want to as 845 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,920 Speaker 1: they do three times while Glasses with them, this trader, 846 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,840 Speaker 1: Anthony Glasses living in the Witchdov villages. Three times you 847 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,840 Speaker 1: O Sage is right in and just steal half the 848 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:18,040 Speaker 1: horse herds that the Wichitas have and sort of, you know, 849 00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: wave somen of a bitch at them as they're riding 850 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,080 Speaker 1: away because they know that these Indians out on the 851 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:24,440 Speaker 1: deep planes aren't well armed. 852 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:30,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, a good parallel would be us today, you know, 853 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:36,040 Speaker 3: saying to Iran, like, we don't want you to have that. 854 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,720 Speaker 4: Well, we're going to block other people from Britain to you. 855 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,720 Speaker 4: That's exactly the technologies that we have that we'd rather. 856 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't want you to have that. And here 857 00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 2: somebody else pops up and says, oh we'll trade it. Yeah, 858 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:54,720 Speaker 2: well we'll absolutely supply you. 859 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,880 Speaker 1: And so that's what the United States, that's what JEFFERSONI 860 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:02,960 Speaker 1: and Indian policy must of it was about during these decades, 861 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,760 Speaker 1: is to try to win over the tribes. And one 862 00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,080 Speaker 1: way to win them, the surefire way to win them 863 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:13,000 Speaker 1: is through trade. And you know, and then there's the 864 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:17,040 Speaker 1: secondary goal of this particular group of traders who have 865 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,080 Speaker 1: heard these stories about the Indians for the last thirty 866 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:24,880 Speaker 1: or forty years, have been talking about some remarkable, large 867 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,400 Speaker 1: chunk of metal out on the plains. And what they 868 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,320 Speaker 1: all think, what the Americans all think, is here's the 869 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,560 Speaker 1: silver oar. We've been hearing about in the Southwest for 870 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,040 Speaker 1: decades and decades and decades. And they go out and 871 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:43,560 Speaker 1: somehow Glass is able to persuade the Wichitas and the Comanches, 872 00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 1: probably with promises of trade of guns and so forth, 873 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:52,680 Speaker 1: to take him to see this object. And he's they're 874 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,680 Speaker 1: the first white people to ever see it. The Indians 875 00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,360 Speaker 1: had never let any other white people see it before. 876 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:03,000 Speaker 4: Well, Dan things, the insights man, Yeah, you bet, we 877 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,000 Speaker 4: should probably say or should we tell people, well, they're 878 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:06,640 Speaker 4: going to hear. 879 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:10,120 Speaker 1: What this object is. But of course what the what 880 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:16,400 Speaker 1: the object is is it's the largest meteorite iron nickel 881 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 1: meteorite discovered in the world in the nineteenth century. And 882 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,640 Speaker 1: these guys, these traders, hauled back to civilization thinking it 883 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:32,960 Speaker 1: is a gigantic nugget of platinum. 884 00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,680 Speaker 4: With a lot of exertion, but a lot of exertion. 885 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:33,240 Speaker 4: Ye