Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Good day,
Speaker 1: Whip Smarties, or for anyone who's listening at night, good evening.
Speaker 1: I am absolutely tickled for today's episode because I'm going
Speaker 1: to sit down with one of my favorite minds who
Speaker 1: also happens to be one of my favorite friends.
Speaker 2: Hands down, one of the most.
Speaker 1: Impactful friendships I've made in the last half decade is
Speaker 1: with today's guest. He is an acclaimed comedian, writer, producer,
Speaker 1: and actor. This year, he was named to Times one
Speaker 1: hundred list of the world's most influential people. He just
Speaker 1: won a special Tony Award in recognition of his breakthrough
Speaker 1: stand up show.
Speaker 2: And he happens to be one of.
Speaker 1: The smartest thinkers, kindest souls, and honestly most motivating and
Speaker 1: interesting piece people that I know. I call him anytime
Speaker 1: I have a weird thought or a problem, and I
Speaker 1: know I'm not the only person lucky enough to know
Speaker 1: him who feels that way out in the world. People
Speaker 1: are obsessed with him for good reason, and that's because
Speaker 1: this year, a show he's worked on for five years
Speaker 1: called Just for Us went absolutely viral. He began tinkering
Speaker 1: on the show in twenty eighteen, and he just finished
Speaker 1: its run on Broadway and now the show is available
Speaker 1: streaming on Max. Just for Us as a special that
Speaker 1: Alex wrote in the wake of a lot of anti
Speaker 1: Semitic threats pointed at him online. He began trying to
Speaker 1: figure out why people hate and very quickly found himself
Speaker 1: volunteerily walking into a meeting of white nationalists to try
Speaker 1: to see if he could learn anything about these people,
Speaker 1: and maybe they could learn anything about him. That fascinating
Speaker 1: experience is what led him to write Just for Us,
Speaker 1: and it is absolutely funny, heartbreaking, poignant, thought provoking and
Speaker 1: every other thing that I believe good art is. It's
Speaker 1: actually his second big special. His first, Millennial, won the
Speaker 1: prestigious Foster's Best Newcomer Prize at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
Speaker 1: He's actually only the second American to have ever done that.
Speaker 1: And in between that show and Just for Us, he
Speaker 1: has been a staff writer on several television series. He's
Speaker 1: written and produced documentaries based on his love of sports
Speaker 1: for ESPN's Thirty for thirty and his love of politics
Speaker 1: and systems for the US State Department. He is a
Speaker 1: journalist for outlets like The Atlantic, and The Believer, and
Speaker 1: he was the head writer of Saturday Night Satyr, an
Speaker 1: all star variety special that aired during the pandemic and
Speaker 1: raised over three and a half million charitable dollars for
Speaker 1: the CDC's COVID nineteen Emergency Relief Fund. I have no
Speaker 1: idea in this man finds the time to sleep, let
Speaker 1: alone take my phone calls, but he manages to do
Speaker 1: it all. And today we're going to find out how enjoy.
Speaker 2: It's actually very.
Speaker 1: Fun to do this with you, because you've become one
Speaker 1: of my closest friends over the last almost half decade.
Speaker 2: And now I feel giggly, like I can't wait. What
Speaker 2: am I going to interview?
Speaker 1: How do I interview you? How do I pretend to
Speaker 1: be like a journalist right now?
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, let's just pretend we've never met or
Speaker 3: something like that. You can interview me as a sports fan,
Speaker 3: as a comedian, and okay, as a proud as a
Speaker 3: proud questian.
Speaker 4: You can have me. You can interview me and through
Speaker 4: any of these things.
Speaker 2: Wonderful.
Speaker 1: Can't wait to learn your expertise on that last subject there. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I actually do this with a lot of people who
Speaker 1: come on the show because I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: for myself or for listeners, you meet someone as you know,
Speaker 1: a fan of what they're doing in the present, or
Speaker 1: a project.
Speaker 2: That's just released, whatever.
Speaker 1: But I actually really love to ask people to go
Speaker 1: backwards with me before before we sit in the today,
Speaker 1: and if you were to meet yourself at let's say
Speaker 1: eight or nine years old, would you see your current
Speaker 1: self in that little kid? Do you see the through
Speaker 1: line of you know, what he loved, what he was
Speaker 1: interested in, and the artist and like creative person you
Speaker 1: are today?
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean I think.
Speaker 3: I think you'd see an eight or nine year old
Speaker 3: Alex just trying to just sort of figure everything out,
Speaker 3: but also in love with various like you know, in
Speaker 3: love of various little things, like in.
Speaker 4: Love with.
Speaker 3: Baseball, and in love with various like odd books, and
Speaker 3: in love with American history, and like I think my
Speaker 3: job is like a dilet job.
Speaker 4: It's like a job for someone who just like likes
Speaker 4: a lot of things.
Speaker 3: And I think as a like child, I just loved
Speaker 3: so many different things and it's and I found a
Speaker 3: job that let that let me basically I monetized my
Speaker 3: ADHD that's right. I monetized my childhood ADHD and turned
Speaker 3: it into something that that could be exploited in front
Speaker 3: of audiences. But I do think that eight or nine
Speaker 3: may would be surprised that I talked to people. I
Speaker 3: was very I was like very quiet and very like
Speaker 3: a reader and had trouble looking adults in the face.
Speaker 3: And my first boss at the Red Sox, a really
Speaker 3: wonderful woman named Colleen Riley. She was like, you know,
Speaker 3: she had a she got to be like, hey, when
Speaker 3: someone talks to you, you should look at them, which sounds like,
Speaker 3: you know, silly advice or patronizing advice, but like I
Speaker 3: needed it.
Speaker 4: I didn't know. I didn't know that.
Speaker 3: Like there was someone at the Red Sox quite who
Speaker 3: I'm less fond of, who would call me doctor Shoes
Speaker 3: because she was like, you're always looking at your shoes
Speaker 3: when you're speaking, So.
Speaker 4: I was for anyone listening.
Speaker 3: I got a job with the Red Sox when I
Speaker 3: was a teenager, at thirteen or fourteen years old, so
Speaker 3: I had this I was around adults, but like it
Speaker 3: grew me up pretty quickly, and it grew me up
Speaker 3: in like a bunch of ways. But when I was
Speaker 3: eight or nine, I would have been sh I'd be like,
Speaker 3: I have a job talking to people, No thanks, my
Speaker 3: job should be writing.
Speaker 2: So ooh, I love.
Speaker 1: I think for some of us, like you and I
Speaker 1: are systems thinkers. We know a bunch of random facts
Speaker 1: where it turns out quite good at trivia. More on
Speaker 1: that later, but like, sometimes the basic stuff doesn't compute.
Speaker 1: And you know you're you're like sort of a genius.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you needed somebody to tell you to make
Speaker 1: eye contact with them while you were speaking.
Speaker 2: And I think that is sort of very sweet.
Speaker 3: Although whenever anyone's like eighty issue a superpower, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: miss me with that superpower, would kill not to have
Speaker 3: this insane superpower.
Speaker 2: I hear you on the miss me with it.
Speaker 1: But when I when I remove myself from being your
Speaker 1: friend and I and I click into being like the
Speaker 1: journalist who researches strangers for this show. And I look
Speaker 1: at your resume and know that you're, you know, developing
Speaker 1: a film that you'll write, direct and star in. I
Speaker 1: know that you've been a staff writer on so many
Speaker 1: different television series. You've written and directed not only you know,
Speaker 1: for scripted but also documentaries like thirty for thirty, which
Speaker 1: is your love of sports all the way to the
Speaker 1: US State Department, which is your love of all things
Speaker 1: system and politics. Like me, You've as a journalist written
Speaker 1: for the Atlantic and The Believer, been profiled in Times
Speaker 1: one hundred. You won a fucking honorary Tony because your
Speaker 1: play was so impactful. Like, I get that as a
Speaker 1: human being, you might not have loved it, but I
Speaker 1: also see the incredible smattering of things you've been so
Speaker 1: wonderful at And I would say I still view you
Speaker 1: as a person with a superpower.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's nice, but a superpower like it. I
Speaker 3: wonder sometimes if my work ethic could be a little
Speaker 3: bit different if I didn't have ADHD. Right, if I
Speaker 3: feel that work ethic, then maybe I could do even
Speaker 3: more I could do, you know, I could be even
Speaker 3: more profoundly productive. I could be even more interested in
Speaker 3: the right things. And you know what's so's there's a
Speaker 3: weird catch twenty two for me, which is that I
Speaker 3: desperately need ADHD medication and I do not take it.
Speaker 4: I just don't.
Speaker 3: And so because it makes me really sad, it makes
Speaker 3: me really but I have had you know, there was
Speaker 3: a point in my life. I was writing on a
Speaker 3: TV show I won't say which one, and they sent
Speaker 3: me off on draft and I wasn't getting anything done.
Speaker 3: And then I took the ADHD medication, which means when
Speaker 3: you're a writer on staff that I'll send you to
Speaker 3: write an episode.
Speaker 4: That's when they send you off on draft.
Speaker 3: And they sent me off to write this episode. And
Speaker 3: I took the medication that I am prescribed for the
Speaker 3: first time in you know, probably a year, and I
Speaker 3: finished my episode in like thirty six hours. I just
Speaker 3: sat down at my desk over the weekends that I
Speaker 3: was assigned it and.
Speaker 4: Just went.
Speaker 2: Did you eat while you did that?
Speaker 4: Did I eat while I did that? It was no.
Speaker 4: I actually that's a really amazing thing.
Speaker 3: Like I really distinctly remember like not eating at all,
Speaker 3: like just being like, yeah, that's tricky, like and it's
Speaker 3: it's it's so hard. These medications are such a you know.
Speaker 3: I also had friends who occasionally would ask me like, Hey,
Speaker 3: can I have one of your pills? And I was
Speaker 3: always want to be like, you don't want this, you
Speaker 3: don't want the.
Speaker 4: But I'd say, but.
Speaker 3: It's like it's the thing people don't fully understand, which
Speaker 3: is like why would they unless they had.
Speaker 4: It like the urge.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I will be on a phone call I really
Speaker 3: need to be on and I will put the phone
Speaker 3: call on speaker, go to my phone and start playing
Speaker 3: a game when I shouldn't be.
Speaker 4: Like sometimes it will happen.
Speaker 3: I have lifelong implications these phone calls, Like genuinely another
Speaker 3: on a phone call with like a lawyer about something,
Speaker 3: and I was like, yep, time to.
Speaker 4: Do mine sweeper, you know, like it's my brain.
Speaker 3: Requires like so much activity to be stimulated. And like,
Speaker 3: also sometimes I was I a couple of years ago,
Speaker 3: I was like, I should be doing something right now.
Speaker 3: I know I should be doing I had this distinct thought.
Speaker 3: I was like I should be doing so oh I'm driving.
Speaker 4: I'm driving.
Speaker 3: Like that was the I was like literally daydream about something,
Speaker 3: and I was starting to daydream about the thing I
Speaker 3: need to be doing. And then I was like, so,
Speaker 3: if you ever see like comedian alex Heedelman killed in
Speaker 3: vehicle crash, like, please know that there's a distinct possibility
Speaker 3: that I was just like con templating, you know, some obscure.
Speaker 4: Fact and then just like.
Speaker 1: Well, and that you were trying your best to pay attention.
Speaker 1: I have that thing I struggle to be on phone calls.
Speaker 1: It's actually why I really like Zoom, because I can
Speaker 1: look at people and it holds my attention. But you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that has helped me when you
Speaker 1: said the thing earlier about wishing you could be more productive,
Speaker 1: like maybe if you had a more neurotypical brain, you'd
Speaker 1: be better at crossing through all the things on your
Speaker 1: to do list. One of the things I've also learned
Speaker 1: about being non neurotypical is that like people who are
Speaker 1: feel proud when they accomplish something, they're like, hey, I
Speaker 1: did that, I'm proud of myself.
Speaker 2: We're like, good for me.
Speaker 1: They can give themselves a pat on the back, and
Speaker 1: we're so averse to that. Like you do something, you
Speaker 1: win an award, and you're like so.
Speaker 4: And I mean, I'm proud, well my awards, But.
Speaker 2: Do you feel proud good?
Speaker 1: That was gonna be my question because the show in particular,
Speaker 1: I mean, I want to hear a little bit about
Speaker 1: how you got started in comedy. But you know, I,
Speaker 1: as a friend and a fan, I've seen iterations of
Speaker 1: your special for almost four years now.
Speaker 2: I've watched just for us.
Speaker 1: In small theaters and you know, seeing you take it
Speaker 1: to Broadway and been in the audience at the Mark
Speaker 1: Taper Forum more times than I actually can remember. The
Speaker 1: sweet ticket takers there started to be like, hey, Sylvia.
Speaker 3: I was like, what's up, dude, that's right, you came
Speaker 3: so many times in LA You're like, can I come
Speaker 3: and see it again?
Speaker 4: I was like, Wow, you've seen this already. You know,
Speaker 4: I don't know that the end.
Speaker 1: But for me, it's like it's so a so important.
Speaker 1: B I love to support my friends and see I
Speaker 1: really wanted every single person that I know to see
Speaker 1: the show, which you know, for our friends at home,
Speaker 1: now you can on HBO, it is streaming.
Speaker 2: On Max just for us.
Speaker 1: Is incredible and as I mentioned, one an honorary Tony,
Speaker 1: which is such a huge, incredible deal. They were just like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're not even going to nominate you in a category,
Speaker 1: We're just going to give it to you.
Speaker 4: Win.
Speaker 1: You win the award, no one else will compete. I
Speaker 1: think that's like one of the cooler things I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: And you know, the show this this has been such
Speaker 1: a big hype year for it, but you started writing
Speaker 1: it in twenty eighteen, I think so many people who
Speaker 1: don't do what we do don't realize how long it
Speaker 1: takes to make these things.
Speaker 2: Can can you.
Speaker 1: Tell our friends at home what the special is about?
Speaker 1: And then and then I want to dig into kind
Speaker 1: of like the process of doing something like this and
Speaker 1: of comedy in general with you.
Speaker 3: So Just for Us is about this guy who's a
Speaker 3: janitor at MIT, but he's smarter than a lot of
Speaker 3: the professors that work there. And his best friend is
Speaker 3: Ben Affleck and he is philosopher. Is Robin Williams Incredible?
Speaker 3: It's yes, philosopher is Robin Philosopher. The show is about
Speaker 3: a Jewish man me who goes to this meeting of
Speaker 3: white nationals and queens and he sits there for a
Speaker 3: little while and then eventually one and I'm like, sorry,
Speaker 3: but this guy's too, and I'm like, yeah, haven't you.
Speaker 3: And so that's what the show is about. I went
Speaker 3: to this thing. It's based on this real story and yeah,
Speaker 3: I've I did the show in Scotland at the Edinburgh Fringe.
Speaker 2: Festival in twenty and one there as well.
Speaker 3: They won an award there and it was nominated for
Speaker 3: an award in Australia and it was. It was a
Speaker 3: nice thing that I had, and I sort of put
Speaker 3: it away for a little while to write on some
Speaker 3: television shows. And then at the beginning of twenty twenty
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, I really want to recommit
Speaker 3: myself to live comedy and I really want to recommit
Speaker 3: myself just for us. And then a pandemic happened. But
Speaker 3: when the show came back in twenty twenty one in
Speaker 3: New York, or actually January twenty twenty two, it just
Speaker 3: it just ran and ran, thank god. And it went
Speaker 3: to Broadway last year and almost exactly a year ago,
Speaker 3: and as toured and is now on Max. It's like
Speaker 3: this incredible, the most beautiful, fullsome.
Speaker 4: Creative experience of life, my life.
Speaker 3: Apart from like a thing I did with my friends
Speaker 3: in the pandemic, it has been this really special, it's
Speaker 3: really really special show, and behind it there's this comments
Speaker 3: tale of joy and collaboration and grief and difficulty. It's
Speaker 3: the sort of like aggregate of all of my happinesses
Speaker 3: and hardships over the last couple of years.
Speaker 4: I love it a lot, and I'm very proud of
Speaker 4: the show. I'm very very proud of it.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Did it
Speaker 1: feel obvious or a little intimidating to take it off
Speaker 1: the stage and make it into a special It.
Speaker 3: Felt both obvious and intimidating, because I knew I didn't
Speaker 3: want to fumble the ball at the one yard line,
Speaker 3: so to speak, and more people would watch just for us.
Speaker 4: In the first two hours of it.
Speaker 3: HBO then had seen it in the years that I'd
Speaker 3: been performing it just you know. Yeah, So it was
Speaker 3: it was something that I and also it's my permanent
Speaker 3: record of this big chapter of my life, and so
Speaker 3: we really really focused on making sure that that thing
Speaker 3: was really like well cared for. And we got this
Speaker 3: guy named Alex Timbers who's like the greatest, greatest Broadway director,
Speaker 3: and he's he was the creative consultant and the facto
Speaker 3: director of the show on Broadway and just did this
Speaker 3: really incredible job.
Speaker 4: But I was really scared.
Speaker 3: And thank god, one of the reasons we did it
Speaker 3: with HBO is because they took so much care and
Speaker 3: they let us know that they were going to let
Speaker 3: us film it on Broadway, which is where I wanted
Speaker 3: to shoot it. They let us know that they were
Speaker 3: going to let us edit it the way that we
Speaker 3: wanted for however long we wanted. And we worked really
Speaker 3: hard on this thing, but it was so if. It
Speaker 3: was so terrifying thinking, oh my god, what if this
Speaker 3: thing that worked live does not work as a film's product,
Speaker 3: which happens a lot, like sometimes you see a great
Speaker 3: live thing and then it doesn't work it doesn't work
Speaker 3: on film, and you're just like so like, it was
Speaker 3: really thank god. I think it's come out really beautifully
Speaker 3: the special. I think it's really really nice. But I
Speaker 3: was really really I was so freaked. Wow, sorry to
Speaker 3: give you.
Speaker 2: That l No, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1: I think there's an assumption that when you're an artist,
Speaker 1: it's all just easy for you.
Speaker 2: I don't think people understand that.
Speaker 1: It's like you kind of have to be willing to
Speaker 1: like pull out your own fingernails. It's hard and personal
Speaker 1: and it has it has such effect on you emotionally
Speaker 1: and physically and psychologically, and you know, I've had to
Speaker 1: figure out how to process, like getting scenes I film
Speaker 1: out of my body because your body doesn't know something
Speaker 1: isn't real.
Speaker 4: Is that true for you? Yeah?
Speaker 1: You know, like to to shoot something, let's say on
Speaker 1: a moon or a TV show where I lose a
Speaker 1: loved one, Like to grieve like that, to suffer like that,
Speaker 1: your body experiences, like the pain and the trauma. You
Speaker 1: know when you cry for six hours at work, Like
Speaker 1: it takes a toll and you have to figure out
Speaker 1: how to separate. And there's a whole different sort of toll.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful and exhausting. It's like this incredible you know
Speaker 1: when you see those birds like fight in the air
Speaker 1: and they're like spiraling but they're flying.
Speaker 2: But they're falling.
Speaker 4: A death spiral show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like a death spiral to be on
Speaker 1: stage to me in the best way, Like it makes
Speaker 1: me feel alive and a little high and also the
Speaker 1: most tired I've ever been when I get off.
Speaker 2: And I thought about that a lot.
Speaker 1: For you, because you know, last summer I went to
Speaker 1: the West End to do a fourhander and it was wild.
Speaker 1: And I've watched you do this one yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've watched you do this one man show over and
Speaker 1: over again, and you know, I feel like your bubby,
Speaker 1: Like I check in and I'm like, are you eating,
Speaker 1: have you had water?
Speaker 2: Did you sleep?
Speaker 1: How is travel? But I thought about that a lot
Speaker 1: for you, the toll of the cadence, you know.
Speaker 3: So we had a weird tragedy on our show where
Speaker 3: our director Adam Brace, who was my closest pal, passed away.
Speaker 3: And then when that happened, I mean it was really
Speaker 3: we worked together Adam I for eleven years and we
Speaker 3: had this amazing collaboration and we did three solo shows together.
Speaker 3: Did all my solo work was with Yeah, ironically, it's
Speaker 3: weird to say something's a solo show when it was
Speaker 3: a huge amount of paperwork on these shows and you
Speaker 3: get really great creative input from literally everyone. It's shaped
Speaker 3: by all these things. But Adam was my most significant collaborator.
Speaker 3: And then when he died, all of my friends sort
Speaker 3: of showed up for me, which is really beautiful and
Speaker 3: surprising and sublime, like Bench pass like most of all
Speaker 3: who you know, Who's Who's Who's my I'm sure we'll
Speaker 3: come walking through that.
Speaker 4: I'm you know, spending.
Speaker 3: Some time in Bench but like right before this podcast,
Speaker 3: so so that's why we're but yeah, but Ben benj
Speaker 3: really showed up for me and my friend Shashana and Jake,
Speaker 3: and you.
Speaker 4: Were a big part of that. You were you were.
Speaker 3: Checking in constantly, and and like I think people like
Speaker 3: you say everyone thinks it's easy for artists. The thing
Speaker 3: that I think not everyone gets is that it's actually
Speaker 3: really it's hard. And I think people that do musicals
Speaker 3: or people that do plays, it's actually really harder to carry.
Speaker 3: So at least I'm doing my own stuff, so I'm
Speaker 3: sort of carrying my own water. But like once I
Speaker 3: started doing Broadway, I began to understand how difficult it
Speaker 3: is to like I'm going to just go. I just
Speaker 3: want to see Sarah Polson in her in that show
Speaker 3: appropriate I saw it. I can't believe how hard she's working.
Speaker 3: Like there are so many of these shows. I've seen,
Speaker 3: all these plays and all these musicals and people working
Speaker 3: their ass off, like Shana taub is doing that musical stuffs,
Speaker 3: like she's working so hard on stage, Like I don't
Speaker 3: understand how they do it, and I don't understand how
Speaker 3: everyone else is in constantly, like.
Speaker 4: Like they can make a million dollars a day, they're
Speaker 4: not making enough. Like it's really really really, really, really
Speaker 4: really difficult. And by the way, obviously.
Speaker 3: Everyone should get paid more for all their all of
Speaker 3: their work for for pretty much every job, especially stockbrooker,
Speaker 3: but I'm killing.
Speaker 1: I was like, especially the teachers, and You're like, it's
Speaker 1: the finance guys.
Speaker 2: They need more money exactly if.
Speaker 3: You're a if you're a hedge fun guy, it would
Speaker 3: just be great for me to make ten million dollars
Speaker 3: more a year, so you can make two hundred and
Speaker 3: ten millions, So two hundred. But but yeah, I mean
Speaker 3: like I frankly didn't respect uh stage actors the way
Speaker 3: that I should have because I had never seen it
Speaker 3: up Yeah, that way, And it is really difficult, and
Speaker 3: you need people to constantly check on. You need to
Speaker 3: be like babysat by entire goddamn community. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Well, it's so all consuming. And I remember thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: because I traditionally come from TV. Sometimes on movies you
Speaker 1: have time, but TV is so like you're going one
Speaker 1: hundred miles an hour and you're doing it sixteen hours
Speaker 1: a day. I'm used to not having a moment, so
Speaker 1: when I was when I signed on for the West End,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my.
Speaker 2: God, essentially up four hours a day. I've never had
Speaker 2: so much free time in my life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, fine, two show weekends turns out a two
Speaker 1: show weekend is actually a five show weekend because it's
Speaker 1: one on Friday, two on Saturday, two on Sunday. But whatever,
Speaker 1: I learned a lot fast. The person who, thank god,
Speaker 1: helped me to not go in completely blind and oblivious
Speaker 1: was Brian Cranston. I had seen him in LBJ, I'd
Speaker 1: seen him do Network. Anytime Brian's on Broadway, I'm going
Speaker 1: and I by happenstance. We were at the same Easter
Speaker 1: gathering the April before I left for London, and he
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this is so exciting.
Speaker 2: Asking me all these questions, and I said yeah, and
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like how fun it'll be.
Speaker 1: I'm going to live near the theater, but i can
Speaker 1: tube around and I'll go to the VNA and I'll
Speaker 1: see all the art exhibits and I'll do great things
Speaker 1: during the day, and on Mondays I'll take the tube
Speaker 1: somewhere far away and I'll really get to know London
Speaker 1: and the greater area. And Brian looked at me and
Speaker 1: he said, you're going to be lucky if you make
Speaker 1: it out of the house before you have to be
Speaker 1: at the theater every night. He said, it will take
Speaker 1: everything out of you, and then you will give what
Speaker 1: you don't have to do the stage door every night
Speaker 1: because people will line up. And the reason we make
Speaker 1: art is for other people, he said. And you will
Speaker 1: go home and you won't be able to sleep until
Speaker 1: two or three in the morning, and then you will
Speaker 1: sleep and when you wake up, you'll feel like you've
Speaker 1: been run over, and you'll do it again because for
Speaker 1: some reason we love it. And I was like, wait, what,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to sight see and he was like,
Speaker 1: oh honey, And thank god, he told me.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: You do it just for you.
Speaker 4: I do it for that sweet sweet cash baby.
Speaker 2: I thought it was just for us, Alex for us.
Speaker 3: Oh no, that's when I say just for us, I
Speaker 3: mean stock give it in. Yeah, that's why I got
Speaker 3: into comedy. That's why I want to do those open
Speaker 3: mics in Boston.
Speaker 1: Because you made so much money at open mics. Okay, wait,
Speaker 1: that actually is great. I love this segue because we're
Speaker 1: jumping around in the way that we do. Your Your
Speaker 1: special has come out. It's Broadway, it's filmed, it's HBO,
Speaker 1: it's it's the special Tony Award. I realized I called
Speaker 1: it honorary earlier like a degree, no special Tony Award,
Speaker 1: not honorary Tony Award. But how did you get started?
Speaker 1: Like how how does a quirky young kid who grew
Speaker 1: up in the sort of home environment you did, which was,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty ultra conservative you wind up working for
Speaker 1: the Red Sox because you love sports?
Speaker 2: Like how do you left.
Speaker 1: Turn into stand up? Where does it start? Is it
Speaker 1: an open mic? Is it that someone tells you you're
Speaker 1: funny and you should try? Like how did it begin
Speaker 1: to get you here where we sit today?
Speaker 4: I mean I started pretty much.
Speaker 3: I started pretty heavily at open MIC's music of the
Speaker 3: MIC's in particular. My upbringing wasn't My upbringing wasn't ultra conservative.
Speaker 3: It was it was like moderately, it was moderately like, uh,
Speaker 3: it was religious, so there was some of that, but frankly,
Speaker 3: like my parents gave me, you know, you can't do
Speaker 3: this anymore. I don't think in any American city, but
Speaker 3: my parents in Boston the early two thousands were like
Speaker 3: just go do your thing. Yeah, like go do whatever
Speaker 3: you want, and like they let me rollerblade everywhere, Like
Speaker 3: I rollerbladed all around Boston.
Speaker 4: I would just sort of like do what I needed
Speaker 4: to do, and.
Speaker 3: They were really understanding and like if I was interested
Speaker 3: in music, I'd go to a concert and if I
Speaker 3: was interested and so like, in some ways, I had
Speaker 3: like a pretty permissive thing, although I didn't even like
Speaker 3: discover everything. Like I remember I went to see like
Speaker 3: I want to see like a movie at midnight because
Speaker 3: this like really cool.
Speaker 4: Girl in my town in Brookline.
Speaker 3: I met her at like a Starbucks and I had
Speaker 3: like a big old crush on her, and she was like, Oh,
Speaker 3: they show these midnight movies at the Coolidge Corner Theater
Speaker 3: and they had this movie called El Topo, which is
Speaker 3: like this Juttorowsky like Mexican art film about like a
Speaker 3: lone gunman. And I went to this thing at midnight
Speaker 3: and I was like, I don't know what any of
Speaker 3: this is.
Speaker 4: And I I didn't know about the existence of like
Speaker 4: art films.
Speaker 3: I'd only ever seen like Disney animated movies that were
Speaker 3: like PG so like so like I had this whole
Speaker 3: discovery process and I guess stand up was part of that,
Speaker 3: but it was a hobby. I just never quit, Like
Speaker 3: I've not quit a lot of the stuff that I like,
Speaker 3: a lot of the stuff.
Speaker 4: That I became interested in as a child, I'm still
Speaker 4: interested in. Like there's still a big part of me that.
Speaker 3: Thinks that one day I'm going to like become a
Speaker 3: like macrobiologist, even though I've never shown any aptitude for
Speaker 3: it and have none of the education for it. Like
Speaker 3: there's still a part of me that thinks I'm getting
Speaker 3: drafted into the NHL. And every year the draft comes
Speaker 3: out and I've never chosen, and the odds of them
Speaker 3: picking the Boston Bruins taking a thirty five year old
Speaker 3: comedian seem pretty slim, but like, well, like, yeah, I
Speaker 3: was everything I was interested in as a kid. I
Speaker 3: had the sort of real world privilege to follow. And
Speaker 3: by the way, that's that is privilege, right, like to
Speaker 3: be able to just show up, Like I think people
Speaker 3: don't understand that that ninety percent of it is just
Speaker 3: if you just keep showing up, eventually they like let
Speaker 3: you in.
Speaker 4: It takes longer sometimes depending on who you are, but like.
Speaker 3: And like, it's easier if you're like a straight presenting
Speaker 3: white presenting and presenting, Like if you have those privileges,
Speaker 3: that is really that that that tilts the balance in
Speaker 3: your favor. But like I would just show up places
Speaker 3: and be interested and like bang my head against the wall,
Speaker 3: and some people I really alienated and was because I
Speaker 3: know it was really annoying, but eventually like they just
Speaker 3: kind of let you in. So so that was that
Speaker 3: was my very very first start. And then sorry, I'm
Speaker 3: talking for too long.
Speaker 2: So I love it.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really
Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. You're talking about
Speaker 1: perseverance though, and one of the things that I worry
Speaker 1: about for us a little bit, not just with like
Speaker 1: the fact that you know, our attention spans have shortened
Speaker 1: because of the Internet and the constant ability to drag
Speaker 1: your thumb and.
Speaker 2: Refresh, but.
Speaker 1: I also fear and I had a conversation about this
Speaker 1: recently with one of my mentor's kids. I really cherish
Speaker 1: in our generational friendships. And you know, I sat with
Speaker 1: this group of kids in their mid twenties.
Speaker 3: And intergenerational friendships is yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well like so important.
Speaker 1: And I sat with these kids and what frightened me
Speaker 1: for them is that they think they're supposed to have
Speaker 1: everything now, everything figured out, know who their person is.
Speaker 1: But I mean even like stuff like they they're just like, well,
Speaker 1: I should live in the apartment on the cover of
Speaker 1: Architectural Digest, and I should. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
Speaker 1: whoa whoa. Like I worry that we can like see
Speaker 1: into each other's stuff so much that it's made us
Speaker 1: like even more obsessed. I know, everyone's always been obsessed
Speaker 1: with stuff. I mean, look at the American economy and
Speaker 1: the era.
Speaker 4: Of mad Men, Like, sure got a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1: But I was like, you guys, you don't even think
Speaker 1: it's going to be cool to like work up to something.
Speaker 1: Like I when I turned forty and like looked around
Speaker 1: and went, oh, look, there's like some stuff I've achieved.
Speaker 1: Like I didn't know if I was going to be
Speaker 1: here when I was twenty five, and I've done these
Speaker 1: things that I feel really excited about, you know. I
Speaker 1: I appreciate that evolution in my own life. And I
Speaker 1: was like, don't please, don't think at twenty six that
Speaker 1: you're supposed to have everything that the forty year olds
Speaker 1: and the sixty year olds in your life have, Like
Speaker 1: give yourself.
Speaker 2: Time, you know. I I love the era where I
Speaker 2: was like.
Speaker 1: Doing all my meals at the bodega because it was
Speaker 1: the only way I could afford to live in New
Speaker 1: York for this summer. Like, I loved that, and I
Speaker 1: don't want people to lose it.
Speaker 3: I think there's also like just to in terms of like,
Speaker 3: you know, I should not have gotten any of the
Speaker 3: attention that I got for just for a minute before
Speaker 3: I got it, And now it's harder.
Speaker 2: We'd say more about that.
Speaker 3: Well, the best gift that you can get as a
Speaker 3: creative person is anonymity, because anonymity affords you the ability
Speaker 3: to iterate free of any pressure, free of commercial expectation,
Speaker 3: free of and by the way, there are pressures that
Speaker 3: are economic, right, like some people need to put out
Speaker 3: stuff that they can't afford. Not everyone can afford to
Speaker 3: iterate on a musical for two decades, right, Like not
Speaker 3: everyone can afford to have a passion project album that
Speaker 3: takes like you know, like three years. You need to
Speaker 3: make money today. But like you know, I worked Jus
Speaker 3: for us in various forms before it went to Broadway.
Speaker 4: For five years. Some of those jokes are six or
Speaker 4: seven years old.
Speaker 1: Where were some of the places you worked on it
Speaker 1: that people might not know about?
Speaker 3: Storytelling nights, I did, and no one ever asks this.
Speaker 3: That's really like I would also England as this. I
Speaker 3: became really heavily involved in the comedy scene in England
Speaker 3: and I went there for my last year of college
Speaker 3: and fell really hard into this group of comedians and
Speaker 3: artists at.
Speaker 4: The Soho Theater. Chief among them was Phoebe Wallerbridge.
Speaker 3: She was like someone who who was the leading light
Speaker 3: at this theater and Adam i collaborator, worked on Fleabag
Speaker 3: with it, he helped out in Phoebe's part.
Speaker 4: Adam dated for a very.
Speaker 3: Long time Vicky Jones, who is Phoebe's co writer and
Speaker 3: Fleabag and a brilliant creative moment of her own. But
Speaker 3: like in England, they have this system called the previous
Speaker 3: system because they're aware that people need to iterate. So
Speaker 3: all these different pubs in East London or North London
Speaker 3: or little towns outside, they'll just they'll expect three comedians
Speaker 3: to come in each do an hour or something on
Speaker 3: a Tuesday night in June as they prepare for the
Speaker 3: Edinburgh Festival. And if you're if you hustle, you can
Speaker 3: book like twenty thirty forty of these previews. So I
Speaker 3: would do the show or any of my solo shows
Speaker 3: as hour long sets in continued repetition for for two
Speaker 3: or three months, and everyone like, my break wasn't just
Speaker 3: for us.
Speaker 4: It was a show called Millennial that I did a
Speaker 4: day ago.
Speaker 3: In twenty fourteen, and it was about the millennial generation
Speaker 3: before the word became ubiquitous, so I was sort of
Speaker 3: explained with.
Speaker 4: It, and I did these shows.
Speaker 3: I moved to England in like May of twenty fourteen,
Speaker 3: and I rented a little apartment and a part of
Speaker 3: a London called Clapton Pond, and I said, I am
Speaker 3: not leaving this apartment until like not like day on day,
Speaker 3: but like I will stay in this room until August,
Speaker 3: and then I will go to Edinburgh.
Speaker 4: In between, my only goal is going to be getting
Speaker 4: ready for this show, and.
Speaker 3: I would go to I did this show dozens of times,
Speaker 3: rarely in front of more than twenty people, and.
Speaker 4: Like and the gift of.
Speaker 3: Anonymity to work on your shows, like I do lots
Speaker 3: of unannounced shows or shows that I only announce on
Speaker 3: my Instagram or to my email list, because like my process,
Speaker 3: and I will oftentimes leave New York or leave LA
Speaker 3: to go to weird little places in like the North
Speaker 3: of Wales.
Speaker 4: Or like like.
Speaker 3: You have to find darkness to work in. You need
Speaker 3: to tinker, especially if your medium is is it performance one.
Speaker 3: You need to find a place where you can iterate.
Speaker 3: And if you are famous, that is really hard. And
Speaker 3: I'm not, but I have worked with lots of famous
Speaker 3: comedians on their material, on their.
Speaker 4: Specials, and they weirdly.
Speaker 3: Don't get the opportunity to incubate in quiet that lesser
Speaker 3: known people do, and because of that, it is much
Speaker 3: harder for them to sort of generate the thoroughness that
Speaker 3: people who are.
Speaker 4: People who have less eyes on them can. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Sometimes people I have a friend who's a really brilliant
Speaker 3: comedian and he's always bemoaning the fact that he doesn't
Speaker 3: have more, like doesn't have more own.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you're gonna pop when you do it. You're
Speaker 4: gonna pop in a big way.
Speaker 3: And you'll love all this material that just is there
Speaker 3: because you've had all this time to incubate it. So
Speaker 3: and by the way, he will he's really really good,
Speaker 3: but it's like like he I think he like I
Speaker 3: miss the ability to iterate completely anonymously and often have
Speaker 3: to like artificially recreate that.
Speaker 1: So I feel that really deeply, I think, and look,
Speaker 1: it's the golden handcuffs, right, Like for me, I didn't
Speaker 1: know my first show was going to be such a
Speaker 1: big deal. And I went from like, you know, three
Speaker 1: years post graduating from an all girls school to being
Speaker 1: on TV. Like there were fifty five girls in my
Speaker 1: graduating class and suddenly I was on this like global
Speaker 1: hit show, which is a blessing but also such a
Speaker 1: curse because you can't up in private. You can't learn
Speaker 1: your lessons in private, you you know, and like even
Speaker 1: for me as someone who loves comedy as much as
Speaker 1: I do, like, you know, we just did this big
Speaker 1: all like queer you know, female and non binary entertainer
Speaker 1: reading performance of Wayne's World at the Annenberg Theater, all
Speaker 1: these people like pinched me a moment. The writer of
Speaker 1: Legally Blonde comes up to me and is like, you
Speaker 1: are so funny, Like I had no idea how funny
Speaker 1: you were, And I was like, well, thanks, I guess
Speaker 1: I spent like ten years sobbing. But I love him
Speaker 1: on TV.
Speaker 2: So like, I don't know, maybe everyone thinks I'm melodramatic.
Speaker 1: But I remember, like, you know, when Chelsea Handler's show
Speaker 1: was on and she was doing like the round tables
Speaker 1: with all the comedians. A bunch of those people were like,
Speaker 1: you really should try comedy. I think you'd love it,
Speaker 1: like you're quick, you're you have like dry wit. And
Speaker 1: I never did it because I was like, it's too
Speaker 1: scary for me because I feel like I'd get made
Speaker 1: fun of. I feel like I feel like the way
Speaker 1: that I would have to learn, like anybody who does
Speaker 1: it is has to learn. I don't have the privilege
Speaker 1: to do anymore because I'm not anonymous.
Speaker 2: Because I was on the second teen TV show. But
Speaker 2: maybe you have to get out of your own way.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Do you know that curve of like knowledge competence thing?
Speaker 3: Don't tell me about that about it where it's just
Speaker 3: like if you when you start you have to know
Speaker 3: that you have to not know that you're when you
Speaker 3: start something, you need to not know how bad you
Speaker 3: are at it in order to Yes, that's step, because
Speaker 3: if you started something and knew how awful you were,
Speaker 3: you would quit.
Speaker 2: Yes, Like a first draft is supposed to be bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But what I mean is you're supposed to a
Speaker 3: thousand percent not know that you're a comedy when you
Speaker 3: start comedy, because if you were an expert in.
Speaker 4: Comedy and you start a comedy, you would go, oh
Speaker 4: my god, this is terrible.
Speaker 3: Like I have a friend who's like constantly threatening to
Speaker 3: start comedy and I want to be like.
Speaker 4: But you you will be terrible.
Speaker 3: And also you know too much about comedy to ever
Speaker 3: like get past that.
Speaker 4: Place where you're just like truly horrific.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't have the play. You don't have the
Speaker 2: privilege of being naive.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean like my friend Josh Weller is
Speaker 3: a comedian who switched who was Friends of the Million
Speaker 3: Comedians and switched over a bunch of years ago from music.
Speaker 3: He's a musician in a band called the Kenneth's to Comedy.
Speaker 3: And I was a really good comedian, but he had
Speaker 3: to start knowing how awful he was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I said, this is going to be really, really
Speaker 4: difficult for you because you are going to you know
Speaker 4: too much.
Speaker 3: You're like slightly down the matrix, like sat with us
Speaker 3: in like vans and buses from like you know, from
Speaker 3: like Leicester to Birmingham. And now you're going to have
Speaker 3: to just like be shit at something. It's like it's
Speaker 3: so scary, but he got there. I mean, like it's
Speaker 3: a really got the competence. That curve is a really
Speaker 3: like once you get to a certain point, you look
Speaker 3: back at how bad you were and you're just like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I thought. And by the way, I
Speaker 3: hope I do that now or in like ten years,
Speaker 3: I hope I look back to where I am down
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh god, I was so it was
Speaker 3: so terrible. It was a lesser comedian and I could have,
Speaker 3: you know, I could be more.
Speaker 4: But like, well, that's.
Speaker 1: Actually really interesting that you say that, because you are
Speaker 1: in that sort of mid point. I mean, you're you're
Speaker 1: at the top of your game, undoubtedly, But when you
Speaker 1: think about your life and where you've come from and
Speaker 1: how you started at these open mics and you'd go
Speaker 1: to work these pubs pre Edinburgh and all these things,
Speaker 1: I think another thing people don't really realize about what
Speaker 1: we do is when a job ends, you have to
Speaker 1: start over, Like you start from ground zero. You are
Speaker 1: starting with more awareness, you are starting with more expertise.
Speaker 1: But like, now you're gonna start ideating your next comedy show.
Speaker 1: How do you do that from this place of experience.
Speaker 1: Do you feel more pressured because you're no longer naive
Speaker 1: or do you feel like it's a little easier because
Speaker 1: you've proven to yourself that you can do this at
Speaker 1: such a level.
Speaker 3: You know Bench Passek, who like I keep repeatedly mentioning
Speaker 3: who's my closest living pal and not to be dark
Speaker 3: not a little document, but Ben.
Speaker 1: I feel like Adam would actually appreciate that joke, so
Speaker 1: hats off to.
Speaker 3: Him, absolutely appreciate it. But benj be my closest learning
Speaker 3: Palen also a genius lyricist, writer, composer. He wrote all
Speaker 3: the music for lah Lah Land, The Greatest Showman and
Speaker 3: Derevan Hanson. He's constantly telling me that I have tools
Speaker 3: that I don't even realize that I had, or you know,
Speaker 3: I don't even realize that I have, and that I'm
Speaker 3: now better equipped to go on and do the other thing.
Speaker 3: You have to trust that sometimes, and this isn't wou
Speaker 3: This is how I make decisions, Like I really make
Speaker 3: decisions based on this, and it's not like airy fairy.
Speaker 4: I do this like quite cynically.
Speaker 3: I will choose jobs and opportunities based on how much
Speaker 3: I'll learn. I will choose jobs and opportunities based on
Speaker 3: how much I'm like, how I can how much I
Speaker 3: can steal right, Like, how many things can I go
Speaker 3: into a room with ten smart people with and take
Speaker 3: out with me? Like That's why two Writers is such
Speaker 3: a big part of my process. Like I try to
Speaker 3: go into a TV writers remember a couple of years, not.
Speaker 5: Just because it's nice to have healthcare, and it is
Speaker 5: nice to have healthcare, but also because, like, you're in
Speaker 5: this room with with between six and ten of the
Speaker 5: or six and twelve of the funniest, sharpest people you've
Speaker 5: ever met, that range from it really experienced, genre defining
Speaker 5: television writers to writers assistants who are really bright and
Speaker 5: have had to fight so hard to get the jobs
Speaker 5: that they are and everybody wants and so like, and.
Speaker 3: Someone specifically curates this room for a vibe like a team,
Speaker 3: and then you sit there and listen to these people
Speaker 3: who are You're so lucky to be around, and like,
Speaker 3: I have a lot of just for us came out
Speaker 3: of other people's brains, Like in terms of like the
Speaker 3: approaches that I saw people take, in terms of like
Speaker 3: the things I saw people dismiss as cliche. I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I have a little that I should get rid of.
Speaker 3: That like a lot of my editing processes in standards
Speaker 3: and methods, and like even the story structure of Just
Speaker 3: for Us. It structured sort of like a multi camera
Speaker 3: sitcom because it was coming out of a multi camera
Speaker 3: sitcom room, and the characters in Just for Us are
Speaker 3: sort of done in a more of a single camera
Speaker 3: style because I had just come out of a single
Speaker 3: camera room when I started redeveloping the show. Well, like
Speaker 3: those subtle differences, like the more places you can put
Speaker 3: yourself where like you learn something and I hate that
Speaker 3: this sounds like a nice, like sweet thing.
Speaker 4: The more places you can go where you're.
Speaker 3: Like stealing techniques, yeah, or like picking stuff up from
Speaker 3: other smart people, like selecting for yourself, like like goods
Speaker 3: at a supermarket, what you want from other people's like
Speaker 3: tastes and skill set, like the better off you'll be.
Speaker 2: So that's wonderful.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 4: Blend of other people's tastes, you know.
Speaker 1: Well sure, but I also think it's it's a really
Speaker 1: good reminder to make sure you're in rooms with people
Speaker 1: that are smarter than you.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is my my number one pet
Speaker 3: peeve when you say, like, I'm not quite as sure about,
Speaker 3: like I'm not quite sure about learn about like, uh,
Speaker 3: what are what our environments are becoming? Has less to
Speaker 3: do with entitlement, even though I do think it is
Speaker 3: a problem.
Speaker 4: And much more to do with.
Speaker 3: Anxiety around opinions that aren't ours and intellects that aren't ours,
Speaker 3: that that are intellects that are that are not the
Speaker 3: same exact line that we are.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 3: I am nervous, very very nervous about uh, I'm very
Speaker 3: very nervous about like the uh like people's I sometimes
Speaker 3: notice people in rooms feeling so threatened by those that
Speaker 3: are smarter than them that they forgot to that they
Speaker 3: forget to take advantage of those people, like literally, I
Speaker 3: will not.
Speaker 4: I don't know that I could date someone who isn't
Speaker 4: smarter than me. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Everyone I've ever dated has been smarter than me. Everyone
Speaker 3: I've ever worked with in a serious way has been
Speaker 3: smarter than me. Everyone I've ever entrusted my Like, why
Speaker 3: would I entrust myself or why would I put someone
Speaker 3: in my path who isn't more intelligent than me? And
Speaker 3: I think people out of fear are seeking out like
Speaker 3: lesser intellects that share their opinions.
Speaker 4: So like and I fight all the time, Like whenever
Speaker 4: we collaborate on something, we argue. We argue and argue
Speaker 4: and argue, and.
Speaker 3: Like because Bench feels like I'm smarter than he is
Speaker 3: and that's not true. And I know that Bench is
Speaker 3: smarter than I am and he's and h. But like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you need every relationship is like a romantic one. You
Speaker 3: need to think that you're the lucky person in it.
Speaker 3: And sometimes I think people seek out folks that they
Speaker 3: wouldn't feel lucky to be around. It's like a crazy,
Speaker 3: crazy experience.
Speaker 1: And now, for our sponsors, the requirement for critical thinking
Speaker 1: is being willing to analyze a bunch of possibilities and
Speaker 1: deduce truth or the most equitable outcome or you know,
Speaker 1: fill in the blank in any way you want to.
Speaker 2: And it reminds me of the last time you and
Speaker 2: benj and I were together.
Speaker 1: We were in a big room of folks trying to
Speaker 1: make sure that the world doesn't become like one giant
Speaker 1: fascist heell hole. And as we were talking about certain
Speaker 1: things that worked, we were also pushing back on each
Speaker 1: other about the things that don't and it was really
Speaker 1: important to me. At one point, I was making a
Speaker 1: point and you jumped in to say yeah, but they
Speaker 1: will say and you filled in that blank, and I
Speaker 1: want more of that. I want more of Okay, but
Speaker 1: what about this smart point. Let's also solve for that.
Speaker 1: Let's figure out how, you know, if we include this
Speaker 1: bucket of people, Let's make the bucket of people who
Speaker 1: think the point you just.
Speaker 2: Made is true.
Speaker 1: Let's make sure we're figuring out how to communicate with
Speaker 1: them and invite them to the table. Also, it's the
Speaker 1: way we build bridges, it's the way policy has to work.
Speaker 1: You have to take care of the most people possible
Speaker 1: at all times. Some people want to do that and
Speaker 1: some people don't want to do the work.
Speaker 2: And I find that to be.
Speaker 1: So important and to realize that when we're able to
Speaker 1: kind of go tete a tet, it's not a fight,
Speaker 1: it's a spirited debate. And I miss I miss that,
Speaker 1: And I think some of why we miss it is
Speaker 1: not just that we're being siloed into groups of people
Speaker 1: we only agree with. But as you see this sort
Speaker 1: of like base level of fighting, we're missing language, we're
Speaker 1: missing nuance, we're missing importance. I mean even the fact
Speaker 1: that when you've talked about the special obviously you as
Speaker 1: a young Jewish man going to a meeting of white nationalists,
Speaker 1: we know we're going to touch on anti Semitism, but
Speaker 1: you talk about how the through line of that show
Speaker 1: for you is actually about assimilation, not just antisemit It
Speaker 1: is a really important linguistic distinction. Why do you feel
Speaker 1: like it's so important to make a distinction like that
Speaker 1: for people?
Speaker 3: Well, I'm i I'd rather have conversations about identity without
Speaker 3: considering victimhood.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 3: I will say that until very recently it was somewhat
Speaker 3: of an anti semitism minimalist. I think there are real
Speaker 3: instances of anti Semitism. Then there are some where people
Speaker 3: are like I found a swastika my cross.
Speaker 4: For puzzle, and I'm like, that's not real. But I've
Speaker 4: always thought.
Speaker 3: That, like, assimilation is about how you see yourself fitting
Speaker 3: into the world, and prejudice is about how others see
Speaker 3: you fitting into the world. And one is very much
Speaker 3: within your control or more in your control, and others
Speaker 3: are less so. And the two are obviously linked, right,
Speaker 3: Like perception is a big part of both of those things.
Speaker 3: In response to that perception.
Speaker 4: It's a big part of both those things.
Speaker 3: But like, you know, the cost of fitting in to
Speaker 3: me has always been more interesting than victim hud.
Speaker 4: I find victimhood very boring, and I find.
Speaker 3: People claiming oppression to be nonspecific in some instances, like
Speaker 3: obviously the people who are you know, we can all
Speaker 3: think of, like there are instances where people are genuinely oppressed,
Speaker 3: and then there are people who who claim it based
Speaker 3: on like Donald Trump sometimes is like, I'm the most
Speaker 3: persecuted man in the world, and you're like, not an
Speaker 3: You're a billionaire. You're a billionaire monster.
Speaker 4: Shut up.
Speaker 1: Like you're a billionaire who's gotten away with crime for
Speaker 1: like fifty years. You're finally being held accountable.
Speaker 2: Shut the fuck up.
Speaker 3: He's like, oh, yes, I'm There's no one who's more
Speaker 3: persecuted than me. And you're like, and then sometimes people
Speaker 3: who are big fans of that guy are like, we're
Speaker 3: persecuted too, and.
Speaker 4: You're like, you're not persecuted. You're fine, Like no one's coming,
Speaker 4: No one's coming for you, buddy.
Speaker 2: Like no.
Speaker 3: And so because of that, victimhood as a currency feels
Speaker 3: very boring to me.
Speaker 4: There's an difference between that and redressing.
Speaker 3: Aggrievance or shifting a balance, like assimilation is something that
Speaker 3: to me let me more deeply consider my own identity.
Speaker 4: Hmmm, Like what if I thought, also, it's more interesting
Speaker 4: as a premise. What if a.
Speaker 3: Jew walked into a meeting of people that dislike him
Speaker 3: and just sort of took it for granted that they
Speaker 3: disliked him and never really never found that to be revelatory.
Speaker 3: What would be the more interesting questions you could ask right, like,
Speaker 3: like instead of sometimes I watch various like Instagram clips
Speaker 3: where people interview.
Speaker 4: Like dumb racists as a sort of gotcha.
Speaker 3: And the point of the clip to be is to
Speaker 3: be like, this person is a racist or this person
Speaker 3: is very very you know, like I'm thinking of a
Speaker 3: specific person in here, but like their work is good,
Speaker 3: and I don't want to mismarch to work. But like
Speaker 3: the point oftentimes for comedy, for really good comedy, is
Speaker 3: this person is bad. The person I'm interviewing is bad.
Speaker 3: And sometimes I think, yes, I know that person is
Speaker 3: someone we would all consider bad. Can you tell me
Speaker 3: one interesting thing about them? Because we might be able
Speaker 3: to get it, like a greater truth there, so so
Speaker 3: I'm always like, you know, I'm more interested in the
Speaker 3: stuff that comes in underneath than the stuff that's up
Speaker 3: there on the top, I.
Speaker 1: Guess being willing to have such nuanced conversation and to
Speaker 1: think so critically, and you know, to put yourself in
Speaker 1: the position you put yourself in to write the show
Speaker 1: in the first place. Is it interesting to hold that
Speaker 1: as your sort of container the sort of questions you
Speaker 1: like to ask and then to be met with. Over
Speaker 1: the years, so many people in an audience who will
Speaker 1: be in inspired but also potentially triggered by the subject
Speaker 1: matter of your show, Like you get so much feedback afterwards.
Speaker 1: How has how has it been for you? Has it
Speaker 1: been strange? Has it been amazing? Is there is there
Speaker 1: impactful feedback you want to share about or are you like, please, God,
Speaker 1: I don't want to.
Speaker 2: Talk about it anymore.
Speaker 3: I no, No, I'm happy to talk about like organic feedback.
Speaker 3: I mean the feedback that was used to me was
Speaker 3: like people who didn't understand things, people would go how
Speaker 3: could you go to? That meeting eventually made me right
Speaker 3: the end of the show, which is like here's why
Speaker 3: it went, Like we can open yourself up to feedback,
Speaker 3: you get what audiences actually are curious about. So I
Speaker 3: get a lot of stuff that audiences are curious about. Also,
Speaker 3: you know, it was really interesting. Sometimes I would give
Speaker 3: an answer. I would answer the question and the show
Speaker 3: that I've been and then I go, but isn't it
Speaker 3: better if they discuss it? Actually, the better if they
Speaker 3: guess my intention and get the answer. So, like, I
Speaker 3: think I learned a really valuable lesson about certain things,
Speaker 3: which is, if you give people narrative closure, but don't
Speaker 3: give people You give people like like narrative closure, but
Speaker 3: don't give people like ultimate closure, then they'll be right.
Speaker 4: Like if you don't.
Speaker 3: If you if you make a sorry to be more
Speaker 3: specific about that, this is a craft thing, I guess
Speaker 3: if you talk about an issue that's tangentially geopolitical like
Speaker 3: whiteness or identity or you know, and then touch on
Speaker 3: and then tell a story that touches on those things
Speaker 3: but doesn't but doesn't give an audience entirely an opinion
Speaker 3: on the issue written large, then the audience will discuss
Speaker 3: that opinion when they leave. I hope they've been conversant
Speaker 3: with it, but you haven't completed the loop. And so
Speaker 3: some of the smarter critics around the show, or some
Speaker 3: of the smarter observers around the show, would take the
Speaker 3: story at face about you, and some of the ones
Speaker 3: who are a little more prescribed to be like, well,
Speaker 3: he never takes a position on X y Z because
Speaker 3: the truth is, like, it's right, it's actually quite boring
Speaker 3: to be told and uh right, And an audience should
Speaker 3: work when they're watching the show, and they should have
Speaker 3: work when they leave, but they should also feel satiated.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, needles like the essence of live performance.
Speaker 2: For me, I love that.
Speaker 1: That's such a good nugget. See, that's something everyone at
Speaker 1: home gets to steal. And clearly it works as a device.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like every single person I know
Speaker 1: and admire in our entire industry came to see your
Speaker 1: show and well, no, seriously, and I loved it. I
Speaker 1: was just like, that's my friend, and like I love
Speaker 1: this for him. You know, It's sort of like when
Speaker 1: you feel like you find a new band. Obviously if
Speaker 1: like they have a record out there doing great, but
Speaker 1: like before they've popped and become like the biggest band
Speaker 1: in the world, and then you know, they become the
Speaker 1: biggest band and you're like I was, They're early, like
Speaker 1: I feel a little bit of that sort of pride
Speaker 1: about your show. I sure was, and I loved every
Speaker 1: minute of it. And then to see like Billy Crystal
Speaker 1: and Steve Martin my literal idol and like Jerry Seinfeld
Speaker 1: come to your show, and then you wind up doing
Speaker 1: a movie with Hint with Jerry like you're you know,
Speaker 1: for the fans at home, alex Is in Untrusted on Netflix, like.
Speaker 2: What it's who cares?
Speaker 1: It's still you did a project with Seinfeld, Like was
Speaker 1: it a wild experience to have those people show up
Speaker 1: and tell you like I loved this was was the
Speaker 1: was the little Boy?
Speaker 2: And you just totally geeked.
Speaker 3: And also I love that, you know, and Amy realized
Speaker 3: though that, uh, it's a special thing, you know, Like
Speaker 3: I've not all my work is warmly received. I've done
Speaker 3: other stuff that's not been as I'm very lucky. I've
Speaker 3: never been savaged, you know, I've never gotten less three
Speaker 3: star review. I'm sure it will come with my next thing,
Speaker 3: but like I've never but you know, I've done some
Speaker 3: work that people were like.
Speaker 4: Okay, it's good for you, buddy, that's pretty good.
Speaker 3: Yea, but yeah, it's a joy. It's just like and
Speaker 3: to have your you know you say, make our for
Speaker 3: other people. I make art for my worst critics, my family, myself,
Speaker 3: two friends, one of whom is no longer alive.
Speaker 4: And.
Speaker 3: The people that made me want to do this, And
Speaker 3: so genuinely, sometimes I think, what would Seinfeld think if
Speaker 3: he saw this joke? What would Maria Bamford think if
Speaker 3: she saw this joke? What would Sloman think if she
Speaker 3: saw this joke? What would Joan Rivers or Richard Pryor
Speaker 3: or or you know so and so how would they
Speaker 3: feel if they saw this joke?
Speaker 4: And so, by doing that, you set for yourself a
Speaker 4: high standard.
Speaker 3: And when they come to the show, some of you,
Speaker 3: like I got a message in Albert Brooks and he
Speaker 3: enjoyed the special. And there's no one I respect more
Speaker 3: than Albert Brooks. Like, wow, I ever met the man?
Speaker 3: I don't know him. His wife Kimberly is a brilliant
Speaker 3: artist to follow her on Instagram, And so got a
Speaker 3: message from Kimberly and like I cried, like it is
Speaker 3: things for your peers and your betters, it really is.
Speaker 4: It's special.
Speaker 2: I love that well.
Speaker 1: Being in this position where you're able to reflect on
Speaker 1: this so beautifully, and you're obviously ideating on some future projects,
Speaker 1: one of which I'm very excited about, but no, we
Speaker 1: can't talk about another of which we did together, and
Speaker 1: we can't quite talk about it. But hint, hint, it
Speaker 1: might be that trivia mention I made earlier. Uh, how
Speaker 1: do you feel about what comes next? What as you
Speaker 1: sit here, you know, in the middle of the summer
Speaker 1: in New York, looking back and looking forward, what feels
Speaker 1: like you're work in progress?
Speaker 2: Is it professional? Is it personal? Is it a mix?
Speaker 4: It's a mix.
Speaker 3: Like I've got to also want to stop for a
Speaker 3: little while soon I take a break. It's been I've
Speaker 3: been doing this show for a long time, just for us,
Speaker 3: I've been talking.
Speaker 4: About it for a long time.
Speaker 3: Maybe nice to like delineate a chapter of something coming
Speaker 3: up that'll be busy.
Speaker 4: I'm busy. I'm very busy, but like, it won't always
Speaker 4: be that way.
Speaker 3: I'll always have to there might be times in my
Speaker 3: life have to jump start things or stop things, but like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, for now, I'm happy with where I am.
Speaker 3: I know that sounds crazy, nuts and I can't even
Speaker 3: believe I'm saying it, and it's also not true, right,
Speaker 3: Like it's also not true. I want to do everything.
Speaker 3: But like you know, I drove my show until the
Speaker 3: wheels fell off, and I stopped just before them. I
Speaker 3: stopped eleven months after Adam died because that was the
Speaker 3: right amount of time.
Speaker 4: That's how long JU say cottage for. So that's how
Speaker 4: I did my show.
Speaker 3: But but like my next thing, I just want to
Speaker 3: keep working, like I really love to work. And my
Speaker 3: show is up for Emmys and hopefully it gets nominated
Speaker 3: for things and hopefully people consider it for such.
Speaker 4: But like it's a yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm just writing, I'm doing some acting, I'm doing some
Speaker 3: like more live stuff. I will always be a comedian.
Speaker 3: I will never stop doing comedy. So like, yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: just like the mixture. And at the same time, it
Speaker 3: would be nice to like calm down a little bit
Speaker 3: so I can maybe like grab myself and start thinking
Speaker 3: about a family or something.
Speaker 1: So so yeah, yeah, yeah, wait, can we can we
Speaker 1: tell the internet a little bit about that? As an asterisk?
Speaker 1: Alex Edelman is single? What are you looking for my?
Speaker 1: Can I get a date out of this? The people
Speaker 1: who listen to this podcast, are very smart, So like,
Speaker 1: what if we find you like a smart cutie.
Speaker 4: Nora e fron is who I'm looking for. That's what
Speaker 4: I'm looking for.
Speaker 3: I know she's dead, but I want to like a genius, funny, jewo,
Speaker 3: weirdo and who's gorgeous. I don't need all of those things.
Speaker 2: He has like some boss energy in her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get that blotsom you know about my like
Speaker 3: you know everything, you know everything wrong that I do.
Speaker 1: I do, But you know, I'm like, let's let's put
Speaker 1: a little pixie dust out there.
Speaker 4: Why not I do?
Speaker 2: I mean, I purpose dates, we do it all here.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, please don't make this the social post.
Speaker 1: I won't socially post it, but people who get to
Speaker 1: the end of the episode will know, and maybe they'll
Speaker 1: start DM ing you.
Speaker 2: We'll see what happens. I'd like to have a follow up.
Speaker 3: Genius gorgeous weirdos. That's my I'm looking for a genius
Speaker 3: gorgeous weirdo. But that's my love it like I've always
Speaker 3: I've only ever dated genius gorgeous weirdos.
Speaker 1: And so you know what a compliment if you've been
Speaker 1: on a date with Alex Edelman, feel good about yourself.
Speaker 1: You're a genius, gorgeous weirdos.
Speaker 3: Surely I've not dated any any anyone who isn't one
Speaker 3: of those things.
Speaker 4: Have they always been easy?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: But you know, well we're probably not easy either.
Speaker 1: We're neurotic and wild and obsessed with facts, so here
Speaker 1: we go.
Speaker 3: We'd nightmares are struggled to be present, so that's the
Speaker 3: the thing for me.
Speaker 1: And we're magical little glitter ponies too. Sure well, I
Speaker 1: love you, thank you for coming on today.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, are you kidding? This is fantastic. M