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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nol.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 3: our super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly,

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Speaker 3: you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know. I suggest we begin with a

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Speaker 3: callback Matt Nol. Not too long ago, we explored a

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Speaker 3: harrowing story about me Admar, especially the troubled scam industry there,

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Speaker 3: and we exercise some empathy. We asked a question a

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Speaker 3: lot of people don't ask, which is when you get

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Speaker 3: those crazy phone calls, who's on the other line? You know,

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Speaker 3: who's on the other end of the phone.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And we talked about specifically the geography of

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Speaker 2: me and Mar and how many borders it shares with

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Speaker 2: other countries where you can just travel across a river

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Speaker 2: and now you're in me and Mar that is going

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Speaker 2: through all kinds of political turmoil, a very dangerous place

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what you might call a civil and social and

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Speaker 4: governmental unrest. It's some areas being you know, completely lawless.

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Speaker 3: And we also we also know, just as you do,

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Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist, that stories continue long after a headline

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Speaker 3: fades from your favorite subreddit or your favorite paper of notes.

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Speaker 3: So we kept digging, and tonight we are following up

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Speaker 3: on a deeper dive into the active criminal enterprises of

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Speaker 3: online scams, not just in Meammar, but around the globe.

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Speaker 3: We are joined with the Edward R. Moureau Award winning

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Speaker 3: investigative journalist Denise chand Denise, your newest project, Scam Factory,

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Speaker 3: explores the real world phenomena of scam compounds, their providence,

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Speaker 3: their consequences, the unclean human tool involved. Thank you so

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Speaker 3: much for joining us.

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Speaker 5: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you all,

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Speaker 5: and we'll.

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Speaker 2: Be right back with Denise after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: We have been listening to Scam Factory, which has, let's say,

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Speaker 2: fully humanized the experiences of people who go through the factory,

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Speaker 2: people who are affected by loved ones going through the factory.

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Speaker 2: It is blowing our minds just as listeners. Can you

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Speaker 2: tell us how you came into this project?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I'm like everybody else who gets a

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Speaker 5: bunch of these sort of scam texts, right, They're on

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Speaker 5: my phone all the time. And when I discovered that

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Speaker 5: the people on the other side of these scam text

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Speaker 5: were trapped in these compounds, thousands of them, stuck there,

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Speaker 5: forced to scam people fourteen sixteen hours a day, was

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Speaker 5: mind blowing and it totally flipped the script of who

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Speaker 5: I thought was a scammer and them actually being a victim.

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Speaker 5: And I think what is most compelling about Scam Factory

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Speaker 5: is that we were able to find a way to

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Speaker 5: tell this story that Matt, like you said, is human driven.

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Speaker 5: The story takes you inside these scam factories, they take

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Speaker 5: you behind the scene with these scammers. But really, at

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Speaker 5: the heart of it, it is a family story. It

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Speaker 5: is a story about a man, a Filipine man who

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Speaker 5: gets tricked into going to memar and his older sister,

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Speaker 5: who goes through crazy links, gets wrapped up in the

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Speaker 5: scam operations, makes complicated decisions in order to get her

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Speaker 5: brother out.

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Speaker 4: A very very complex character. If we're going to call

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Speaker 4: them characters, this is someone Charlie is not exactly well.

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Speaker 4: Charlie in particular, just an absolutely. I don't know, compelling

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Speaker 4: kind of case of someone being pulled in multiple directions

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Speaker 4: and sort of driven by different allegiances and ultimately I

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Speaker 4: don't want to spoil anything, but it's very much put

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Speaker 4: to the test.

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Speaker 5: And I think that that's what's really exciting about the

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Speaker 5: series is that because we get six episodes and we

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Speaker 5: get to really deep dive with each of these characters,

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Speaker 5: you get to really grapple alongside with these characters around

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Speaker 5: this moral question of would I harm people I don't

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Speaker 5: know in order to save my myself or to say,

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Speaker 5: the people that I love.

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Speaker 3: It's a trolley problem in a way, you know, ethically

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Speaker 3: fraught and denise. One thing I love that you're pointing

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Speaker 3: out here is there's an exploration for the people on

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Speaker 3: the other side of the cold phone call. They themselves

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Speaker 3: have become scammed into scamming, if it's fair to say.

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Speaker 3: And with this, before we really dive in, we have

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Speaker 3: to acknowledge your award winning work on previous projects so

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Speaker 3: cal connected. I was there podcasts like fed Up and

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Speaker 3: over my Dead Body and.

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Speaker 2: Don't forget until it happened to us.

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Speaker 4: All right?

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Speaker 3: Always remember that one. Also, can you tell us how

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Speaker 3: you initially discovered this story, like what drew you to it?

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Speaker 5: Thank you for pointing out my previous work. Yeah, so

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Speaker 5: my previous background was in investigative documentaries. I've actually done

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Speaker 5: a lot of stories primarily domestically focused. So having the

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Speaker 5: opportunity to do an international story, to bring a story

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Speaker 5: that's overseas two US audiences, was always on my bucket list.

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Speaker 5: So this is why Scam Factory is very special and

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Speaker 5: unique milestone for me personally. But how I found this story,

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Speaker 5: it was unexpected. Actually, you know, once I heard that

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Speaker 5: these people, once I've learned the truth about who was

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Speaker 5: behind these scam texts, I immediately wanted to talk to

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Speaker 5: people who had escaped from these compounds. And at the time,

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Speaker 5: we had heard about two people who had just been

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Speaker 5: rescued a couple days prior and made it back to Bangkok,

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Speaker 5: and so we scheduled an interview to talk to them,

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Speaker 5: and those two individuals turned out to be Max and

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Speaker 5: Jing Wow. And as we're sitting there talking to Max

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Speaker 5: and Jane, we noticed that Max it keeps looking at

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Speaker 5: a woman sitting on the side, and we don't realize

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Speaker 5: until the recorder is off that that person is actually Charlie,

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Speaker 5: his older sister. And it wasn't until after that when

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Speaker 5: we began to have conversations with Charlie that we realized, oh,

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Speaker 5: Charlie not only helped bring Max out, but she actually

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Speaker 5: played an even bigger role without giving any spoilers, that

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Speaker 5: made her really the center of this entire story. So

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Speaker 5: that is how we ended up finding finding the story,

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Speaker 5: finding these siblings. And as we just kept pulling that thread,

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Speaker 5: it was, it just kept graveling and it became a

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Speaker 5: wilder and wilder tail as.

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Speaker 4: You'll learn what luck I mean, I know there's more

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Speaker 4: to it than luck, but for your first you know

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Speaker 4: source that you discover to be at the center of

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Speaker 4: what is not just a kind of a teachable moment

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Speaker 4: for this kind of thing and sort of an explanation

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Speaker 4: of what is on the other side, but just an

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Speaker 4: absolute twisting, turning story of intrigue and just you know,

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Speaker 4: kind of the humanity of it adds it's incredible that

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Speaker 4: was you found those folks so quickly and all at

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Speaker 4: the same time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I will add that, you know, it wasn't the

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Speaker 5: Max and Jay weren't definitely they were the first sources

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Speaker 5: that we spoke to coming out as Highland, but we

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Speaker 5: had talked to other sources stuff until that point. But

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Speaker 5: the thing about Wondering is that we're always trying to

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Speaker 5: find the most unique way into the story. And once

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Speaker 5: we heard about Charlie and Max's journey, the sibling story,

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Speaker 5: we were like, Okay, this is going to be a

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Speaker 5: compelling way in for listeners to universally understand what these

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Speaker 5: individuals are going through.

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Speaker 2: So let's jump to the first episode of the series.

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Speaker 2: When we're thinking about Charlie and Max. As you know

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Speaker 2: sister brother Charlie, the older sister who feels very protective

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Speaker 2: over Max. How does Max get introduced to the concept

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Speaker 2: of whatever it is that he thinks he's going to

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Speaker 2: go and do to make some money, Like what does

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Speaker 2: that value offer to him? And then how does he

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Speaker 2: get sucked in? And how does Charlie help him get there?

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Speaker 5: So Max hears about this job offer through a couple

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Speaker 5: of his friends who have been I think originally they

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Speaker 5: were going to work in Cambodia and he hears about

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Speaker 5: this opportunity. He thinks, oh my gosh, my friends are

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Speaker 5: out there, they seem to be doing fine. I want

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Speaker 5: to work this job that one falls through. He gets

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Speaker 5: another offer to go to Bangkok, and this is the

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Speaker 5: one that we hear in the series, and he's talking

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Speaker 5: to a lot of his friends. They all seem like, oh,

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Speaker 5: this is a great job. Yeah, come come, come, come come,

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Speaker 5: and they're selling him on everything. You know, They're selling

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Speaker 5: him on amenities like room and board. Everything is paid for,

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Speaker 5: you get food, you get all these The supermarkets are there.

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Speaker 5: Everything is there, so you don't even have to leave

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Speaker 5: the compounds, so you're all good. You can just stay there.

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Speaker 5: And obviously, like we say in this series, Max is

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Speaker 5: at home driving his family car. It's not it's not

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Speaker 5: making a ton of money. So when he hears he's

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Speaker 5: making maybe two hundred and fifty dollars a month. And

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Speaker 5: so when he hears a job opportunity to go abroad

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Speaker 5: and make one thousand dollars a month, that could be

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Speaker 5: game changing for him. And so that's what initially appeals

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Speaker 5: to him. It's like, yes, I'm going to go abroad

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Speaker 5: for a year and work and be away from my family.

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Speaker 5: But hey, on the other side, I'll be able to

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Speaker 5: give them a way better standard of living if I

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Speaker 5: can get this this income. So that's Initially what brings

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Speaker 5: him in, Well, what does.

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Speaker 2: He think he's going to do with that job? Like,

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Speaker 2: what is the actual job itself?

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Speaker 5: He thinks that he is going over there to do

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Speaker 5: It's like an online casino gig, and so he thinks

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Speaker 5: he's going over there to do It's almost like the

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Speaker 5: loaders on online casinos, where you do customer service with

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Speaker 5: people who are gambling, and so he thinks that's what

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Speaker 5: the job is going to be. It's customer service, it's

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Speaker 5: back end, and that's it.

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Speaker 3: In totally legit and super above board, definitely not involved

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Speaker 3: with any sort of triad. The sarcasm goes so real quick, Denise,

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Speaker 3: Let's let's walk through this experience. So we are Max, right,

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Speaker 3: we are working a pretty not amazing job, we're making

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Speaker 3: ends meet, and we receive an offer to travel abroad.

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Speaker 3: We sign a contract telling us we will work back

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Speaker 3: end an online casino gig. Where do we find the

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Speaker 3: plot twist? What happens to Max when he agrees to

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Speaker 3: take up this job offer.

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Speaker 5: So Max is a sign a contract. But one of

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Speaker 5: the things I want to emphasize is, like, one of

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Speaker 5: the things that is really sinister about the entire thing

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Speaker 5: is that. You'll hear it in the first scene where

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Speaker 5: they go to a mall and these criminal syndicate bosses

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Speaker 5: will come, the recruiters will come, and they'll have lunch

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Speaker 5: with you. They'll they'll make it seem as legitimate as possible,

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Speaker 5: that this is all good. They'll answer every single question

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Speaker 5: that you have, they'll try to sell you on it.

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Speaker 4: You're almost flattered by it, right because you're coming from

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Speaker 4: a place where maybe you aren't given that kind of respect,

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Speaker 4: and you're being treated like you're potentially an asset for

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Speaker 4: this new operation, and there's got to be a certain

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Speaker 4: sense of like pride that they're giving either maybe you

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Speaker 4: are lacking in your normal life.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it feels like, you know, you'll hear it

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Speaker 5: in the series where Max goes to this restaurant and

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Speaker 5: it's a fancy restaurant, a restaurant they normally wouldn't go to,

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Speaker 5: and everything is paid for. In the back of their mind,

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Speaker 5: it feels really legitimate, like, oh, Okay, these people have money,

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Speaker 5: this company has money, this is gonna be great. So

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Speaker 5: and Charlie is at that lunch. Charlie is convinced herself.

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Speaker 5: She feels like she's done all the vetting that she

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Speaker 5: could do. She has asked all the questions. She feels

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Speaker 5: like it's legitimate, so she lets Max go. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: After their luncheon, Max is convinced. Max is very excited.

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Speaker 5: Charlie actually also has the opportunity to get the opportunity

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Speaker 5: a free flight to go and check out the compound herself.

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Speaker 5: I mean, all of this seems above board on her end.

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Speaker 5: She goes over to the campus. She sees, Oh, okay,

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Speaker 5: everything looks legitimate, like all the amenities are exactly as

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Speaker 5: they said. She takes a look at the dorms, She

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Speaker 5: takes a look at the office, She looks at people's screens, sees, oh,

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Speaker 5: they are doing online gambling. She comes back, tells Max,

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Speaker 5: we're good to go. I think you're okay, And so

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Speaker 5: Max goes and he's very excited. He flies over to

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Speaker 5: Bangkok and very quickly realizes something isn't right because Bangkok

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Speaker 5: should only be about forty five minutes away from the airport,

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Speaker 5: and as he's driving, it becomes longer and longer and longer,

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Speaker 5: and something starts to dawn on him. But it is

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Speaker 5: not right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to spoil it too much, but

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Speaker 2: imagine being like just being shuffled into a vehicle, right,

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Speaker 2: you think you're going forty five minutes, then it turns

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Speaker 2: into five hours, and then they're like, hey, get out,

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Speaker 2: we're going to stay at this hotel for a few hours.

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Speaker 2: And were here it kill it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, all that kind of too speaks to the

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Speaker 4: nature of a scam and this idea of keeping people

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Speaker 4: hanging on kind of hoping for the next thing or

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Speaker 4: the positive thing that was promised. You'd make a really

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Speaker 4: good comparison in the first episode that I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of people can understand about the way car salesman op.

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Speaker 4: I actually just bought a car, so it's home for me.

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Speaker 4: But it's the idea that they kind of keep you

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Speaker 4: captive in a way and make you all these promises

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Speaker 4: and answer all your questions and make everything seem legitimate,

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Speaker 4: and then when you're kind of out of it or exhausted,

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Speaker 4: that's when they kind of pull the bait and switch

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Speaker 4: or whatever. You know. I mean, not all car salesmen

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Speaker 4: are like that, but can you maybe speak a little

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Speaker 4: bit to the mechanics of a scam, Maybe not the

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Speaker 4: specific scam, but just how that promise and that whole

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Speaker 4: relationship kind of plays into how things can really quickly

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Speaker 4: spin out of control.

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Speaker 5: I think what's interesting is the whole tactic, especially with

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Speaker 5: folks like Max and Jane who get tricked into going

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Speaker 5: to MEMR. They are constantly reassured even in the car,

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Speaker 5: like as they're texting the recruiter, Oh, no, it's fine,

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Speaker 5: this is exactly what's happening. Don't worry. And they'll try

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Speaker 5: and ask questions, be like, hey, where where are we going?

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Speaker 5: And the driver will say no English, no English. So

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Speaker 5: it's sort of it's a stressful and yet confusing period.

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Speaker 5: But also you have no choice but to trust the

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Speaker 5: only person, the only contact you have, oftentimes it's the recruiter,

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Speaker 5: And so the recruiter is telling you, oh, it's good,

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Speaker 5: it's good, it's good, and so you really, what are

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Speaker 5: you going to do? You can't just like open the

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Speaker 5: door and just like roll out of the car. Right.

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Speaker 5: It's a very scary situation, and they purposely kind of

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Speaker 5: put people in that in that scenario so they can't escape,

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Speaker 5: and they all they can do is hope that they're

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Speaker 5: telling the truth, and obviously they're not telling the truth

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Speaker 5: about where they're going.

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Speaker 4: Well, and even beyond that, like physical safety aspect, there

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Speaker 4: is also that promise of future payment, future deliverables, and

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Speaker 4: you're like, oh, if I jump out now, or if

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Speaker 4: I get out now, or if I ask to be

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Speaker 4: dropped off, then I won't get this opportunity. And that's

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Speaker 4: part of the kind of mind games that are being

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Speaker 4: played with you by this recruiter as well.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean even once they get into the compound,

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Speaker 5: it's like the goals post keeps moving, you know. It's

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Speaker 5: it's they'll say, oh, just work one year, and then

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Speaker 5: maybe once you get to the one year, who knows

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Speaker 5: if they're lying or not. They could keep you for

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Speaker 5: longer or just meet this quota. And then once you

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Speaker 5: meet this quota, uh, and and you hit a certain number,

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Speaker 5: the quota might change. The quota might suddenly be like okay,

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Speaker 5: the bosses might suddenly say, hey, yeah, we said you

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Speaker 5: could work until this amount of money. However, because of

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Speaker 5: how you lived, you now owe x amount and so

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Speaker 5: therefore what you're trying to get at is now a

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Speaker 5: higher price. So these are just things that they do

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Speaker 5: to make sure you're stuck there and with.

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Speaker 2: That will take a quick break and be right back.

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Speaker 1: And we're back.

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Speaker 3: Can we describe, just for everyone tuning in a bit

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Speaker 3: of the working conditions. So we're putting ourselves in Max's place.

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Speaker 3: Right in the story, we have our sibling Charlie, who

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Speaker 3: is very increasingly concerned. Right, we're Max, what are our

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Speaker 3: average like day to day working conditions looking like? How

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Speaker 3: is our life there?

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Speaker 5: So inside these compounds, it's kind of bizarre because, and

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Speaker 5: I will be honest, when I first heard about these places,

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Speaker 5: it felt unreal that these places would exist. They are

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Speaker 5: almost like micro cities. There are places where there's high

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Speaker 5: rise buildings full of dorms, offices, and there's casinos, there's hotels,

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Speaker 5: there's streets full of restaurants, there are karaoke bars, so

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Speaker 5: it feels like a mini city. Obviously, as a low

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Speaker 5: level worker, somebody like Max or Jane in the story,

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Speaker 5: you're not allowed to necessarily go to some of these places.

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Speaker 5: Those areas of pleasure are oftentimes for the bosses. So

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Speaker 5: for workers like Max, really you are confined to either

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Speaker 5: the dorms or the office and you just basically go

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Speaker 5: from one place to the next, and there are guards

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Speaker 5: everywhere at all the entrants. Oftentimes there are armed guards.

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Speaker 5: You're heavily monitored when you're working in the office. You

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Speaker 5: have to turn in your phones before you start work,

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Speaker 5: and so the bosses are looking through what you're sending

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Speaker 5: to people. So Max had to be very very careful

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Speaker 5: about what he was sending out. There are cameras everywhere

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Speaker 5: inside these inside the offices, just watching people, making sure

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Speaker 5: you're working. I've also heard from sources of guards just

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Speaker 5: walking up and down the aisles as people are sitting

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Speaker 5: at their desk, just to make sure they are working.

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Speaker 5: Everything that they type on their computer is also monitored

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Speaker 5: by the bosses, so if you go off script, for instance,

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Speaker 5: the bosses will know, and so every single move you

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Speaker 5: make is watched. And then there's this immense pressure to

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Speaker 5: meet scam quotas. So Max and Jane told me that

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Speaker 5: their daily quota was about two thousand dollars a day.

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Speaker 5: Their team quota was twenty five thousand dollars a day,

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Speaker 5: and that's a team of thirteen people. So you divide

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Speaker 5: that by thirteen, it's two thousand dollars a day.

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Speaker 3: So you can only imagine that US dollars.

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Speaker 5: US dollars, so you can only imagine the amount of

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Speaker 5: money that's coming into these places, and if they don't

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Speaker 5: meet a certain quota, If they don't hit quota, there's punishment.

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Speaker 5: There's punishment like starvation, there's punishment like physical beatings, tortures

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Speaker 5: over time, things like that.

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Speaker 2: So wow, it just sounds so impossible that it could

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Speaker 2: be real, especially to get in to that situation the

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Speaker 2: way that Max well, and we don't spoil too much,

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Speaker 2: but all of the people that we follow in the

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Speaker 2: story end up in that position. I've heard of many

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Speaker 2: different types of scams. The one that is described that

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Speaker 2: they are performing is it was weird and different to

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Speaker 2: me that I just didn't I couldn't comprehend how they

351
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Speaker 2: would end up making money as scammers in this way

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Speaker 2: until you spell it out. I'd love to just describe

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Speaker 2: that a little bit. I don't know if it's specifically

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Speaker 2: called hotel hub or deal smashers or those things, but

355
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Speaker 2: it's this concept of roping somebody in through hotel reviews

356
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Speaker 2: and a complicated system of then that person putting money

357
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Speaker 2: back into the system to get money out. Can you

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Speaker 2: just describe some of that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I was also a little confused about

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Speaker 4: like the negative balance aspect of it. And how that works.

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Speaker 4: That would be super awesome if you could walk us

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Speaker 4: through it, because it's fascinating.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was. I mean, I'll be honest, I was

364
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Speaker 5: confusing when I first heard when I first heard of

365
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Speaker 5: this scam as well, because they also use interesting terms.

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Speaker 5: They call them customers and clients. They use terminology that's

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Speaker 5: really interesting, and I actually think part of that is

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Speaker 5: to make the workers feel like they're conducting legitimate business

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Speaker 5: in a way. It's psychological, right, the way that you frame.

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Speaker 3: It's weaponized language, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, Brillian, I think all of this is it's

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Speaker 5: all part of if you get any of these recruitment texts,

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Speaker 5: I think there's a lot of I've been getting a

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Speaker 5: lot of like, hey, are you looking for part time job?

375
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Speaker 5: I'm from a recruiting agency. And so the scam that

376
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Speaker 5: we talked about in this series specifically is a hotel

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Speaker 5: booking scam. So they pretend that they are from almost

378
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Speaker 5: like a hotel rating company that is asking people to

379
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Speaker 5: just for part time gig. Hey review a few hotels

380
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Speaker 5: for me, and we will give you some commission, will

381
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 5: throw us a couple dollars your way. Super easy work,

382
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Speaker 5: Sit on your couch, just rate some hotels. At some point,

383
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 5: the hook comes when they are asked to start to

384
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Speaker 5: write reviews for these hotels. And in order to write reviews,

385
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Speaker 5: you have to make some sort of hotel booking. And

386
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Speaker 5: in order to make the hotel booking, you put in

387
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Speaker 5: your money first, and then you'll be able to get

388
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Speaker 5: your money back out afterwards. In doing so, by putting

389
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Speaker 5: your money in upfront, you are allowing yourself to make

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Speaker 5: an even bigger commission. It is kind of confusing, but

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Speaker 5: I think what the scam does a really good job

392
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Speaker 5: of is that the scammer is trying to reassure you, Hey,

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Speaker 5: this complicated thing, don't worry. I'm going to simplify it

394
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Speaker 5: for you. All you got to do is just throw

395
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Speaker 5: the money in and like, don't even worry about how

396
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Speaker 5: this all works.

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Speaker 4: All you got to know, I'll help you out. I'll

398
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Speaker 4: actually like, I'm your advocate here, You're.

399
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 3: With you exactly, it's you and me as a team,

400
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 3: right exactly.

401
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 5: All you got to do just put in the money.

402
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 5: I can just reassure you that you'll get even more

403
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 5: money back. And so at this point, I mean that's

404
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 5: the heart of the scam, where you like start to

405
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 5: develop a relationship with your scammer or your recruiter, you

406
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 5: think that they're looking out for you, and so you

407
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 5: start to believe, Okay, so far they have helped me

408
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 5: make a lot of money, so I have no reason

409
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Speaker 5: to not trust them at this moment in time, even

410
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Speaker 5: though I don't fully understand how this all works. And

411
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Speaker 5: so they'll put money in and know, like you were asking,

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Speaker 5: the negative balance comes up again where it's like, oh,

413
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Speaker 5: you know what, for some reason, it's a negative balance,

414
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 5: but don't worry. Just put more money in and you'll

415
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 5: get an even bigger reward at the end. And so

416
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Speaker 5: it's sort of like this cyclical thing. It doesn't fully

417
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 5: make sense, but I do think the heart of it

418
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Speaker 5: is that there's a level of trust. You trust that

419
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 5: this person you're talking to knows exactly what they're doing.

420
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 5: They understand the platform better than you. So the report

421
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 5: they're looking out for you for sure.

422
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Speaker 2: Well it makes me think about the gig economy that

423
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: we all exist in now, where everybody is looking for

424
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Speaker 2: a second or third thing they can do on the

425
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: side to make just enough money to live right, to

426
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Speaker 2: be able to afford life. In twenty twenty five. And

427
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Speaker 2: this concept of picking up something on the side and

428
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 2: then just you know, doing reviews, doing rating, maybe even

429
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 2: delivering something. That kind of thing just is so regular,

430
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Speaker 2: that is just life.

431
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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: I can see how people would get sucked in really easily.

433
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Speaker 5: And the fact that it's remote, right, I feel like

434
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 5: everybody in these days are looking for they're looking for

435
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 5: remote work to do something quick and easy, make a

436
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 5: couple of bucks. And it's not like you're going to

437
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 5: make a huge salary from this, but hey, a couple

438
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 5: of hundred bucks helping something, yeah.

439
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, and I guess maybe the irony too, is

440
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 4: that the person that's running that scam and that is

441
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 4: creating that rapport with the customer or whatever the per

442
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 4: that's being scammed, they themselves, the person running it, have

443
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 4: a relationship that is similarly toxic and like Stockholm syndrome

444
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 4: with their captors, right, and where they're incentivized and they

445
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 4: are able to somehow mentally in order to just deal

446
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 4: with the trauma of all of this, normalize all of

447
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 4: this in order to kind of keep from going nuts.

448
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 4: I mean, that's just it's mind blowing the idea that

449
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 4: you know you are having to do this to a person.

450
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 4: You speak to multiple people who have executed these games,

451
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: and they feel remorse, But in the moment, you're like

452
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 4: doing what you're told, and you're also maybe even a

453
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 4: little bit trying to do a good job, and maybe

454
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 4: you're also kind of good at it. It's fascinating. Yeah,

455
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 4: that's what psychology of it all.

456
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 5: It's really twisted to be put in that sort of

457
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 5: position where you want.

458
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 6: To succeed and hit target because of the environment you're in,

459
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 6: but at the same time you're very clear what you're

460
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 6: doing and you're manipulating the person on the other end, and.

461
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 5: When the killing day comes, when you are actually scamming them. Yeah,

462
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 5: the rug pull where you realize where they realize, oh,

463
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 5: I'm not getting that money back. They feel it a lot,

464
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 5: and you know, Max is just you hear it in

465
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 5: the series, a lot of these characters really have a

466
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 5: tough time grappling with that.

467
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 4: They're cleaning out elderly people's savings and things like that

468
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: as well. I mean, this is very it's the most

469
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 4: kind of predatory.

470
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 3: Also under threat. Right. The people perceived by the end mark, right,

471
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 3: are themselves being scammed through the establishment of manipulation and

472
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 3: rapport a cycle, as you said, Denise, of scam all

473
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 3: the way down. One of the questions that a lot

474
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 3: of folks are going to be asking when they hear

475
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 3: our conversation now is well, hey, what if I am

476
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: one of these people built into traveling to me and

477
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 3: mar right, and I realize stuff is not on the

478
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: up and up and I want to get out.

479
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 4: What do I do?

480
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: Is it possible for me to get out from under

481
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 3: the thumb of this scam industry? What happens in that case?

482
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 5: It's very scary to be in a place like Memmr

483
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 5: where it is lawless and it's not easy to have

484
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 5: access to law enforcement.

485
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: Communications are monitored as well. I mean you are and

486
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 4: there's like guards, there's this whole shoot to kill. It's

487
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 4: almost like trying to stage a prison break or something

488
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 4: at a certain point.

489
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. It's very hard to reach out.

490
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 5: I will say, if you are in a situation like that,

491
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 5: try your best to reach out to your embassy in

492
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 5: the area. Yes, I think that is the number one

493
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 5: place where they could possibly do something, to go through

494
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 5: perhaps the appropriate channels. In the series, we talked to

495
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 5: Colonel Mattalog who is the police attache in Thailand, and

496
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 5: he is from the Philippines embassy, and so that was

497
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 5: a really critical resource for Filipinos, the Philippine Embassy in Bangkok.

498
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 5: So depending on what country you are from, I would

499
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 5: say that is the first place to reach out to.

500
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 4: Not the hero of our story in anyways, your story.

501
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to I don't want to spoil too much,

502
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: but the concept that these each, each individual person is

503
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: a foreign worker working in me and Mar for a company, right,

504
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: and then mean More has this thing and I don't

505
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: know if this is right or not. I was just

506
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: doing some digging after listening to one of the episodes,

507
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: but I found a thing called the Me and Mar

508
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: Center for Responsible Business Complaints and Grievance, which is really

509
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: interesting and I don't know if it's actually directly related

510
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: to the story here, but it is a system set

511
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: up to where foreign companies operating in Meanmar are monitored

512
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: to some extent, not really but to some extent, right,

513
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: and then you're able to lodge a complaint as an

514
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: employee of one of these foreign companies and say, hey,

515
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: my human rights are being violated in one way or another.

516
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: Here is how I need help. How is that real?

517
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: How does that function?

518
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: Like?

519
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: What is a complaint desk?

520
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 5: Yes? If it sounds bizarre, right that the place it does,

521
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 5: a place that's completely flawless and wild, would have some

522
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 5: sort of complaint desk.

523
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: It's like HRR, better business.

524
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, it's it's insane. And I remember feeling that

525
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 5: exact same way when I heard about it. I'm like, wait,

526
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 5: are you guys playing my leg here like they're you

527
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 5: could just feel like, hi, sorry, I have a complaint.

528
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 5: So yeah, So these compounds are actually run by a

529
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 5: group called the Border Guard Forces, and the Border Guard

530
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 5: Forces basically control the land that these compounds are on.

531
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 5: And so what that means is these Chinese syndicates that

532
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 5: are opening these start these compounds, they're not the actual

533
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 5: owners of the place. They're leasing the land from the

534
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 5: group like Border Guard Forces. And so the Border Guard Forces,

535
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 5: from our reporting, there's really not a level of loyalty

536
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 5: necessarily to their Chinese tenants. It's more so, hey, we're

537
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 5: letting you use this land. Don't give us any trouble.

538
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 5: And so I think a desk like this complaint desk

539
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 5: that exists in these compounds is their way of making sure. Hey,

540
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 5: we're we're doing our job. Like you know, if anybody

541
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 5: has any human rights complaints, they can come to this

542
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 5: plaint desk and just file it. That said, in the series,

543
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 5: when you know Colonel advises people to go to this

544
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 5: complaint desk, he is very clear that it's not a

545
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 5: foresure that just because you go to this complaint desk

546
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 5: you will get out. There is a lot of negotiation,

547
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 5: back and back channeling that is done in order to

548
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,239
Speaker 5: get these people out. However, step one is to at

549
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 5: least just flag to the complaint desk. Hey, my embassy

550
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 5: knows that I am here, and they know that I

551
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 5: want to get out and there's a violation on my

552
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 5: human rights. I don't want to work here. I want

553
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 5: to get out.

554
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: Are there any have you encountered any fears of reprisal

555
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 3: for people reaching out to that complaint desk?

556
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 4: Gosh, there have to be at least the threat of it, right,

557
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: And don't the employers get a day in court to

558
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 4: answer for their supposed crimes as well? Like they kind

559
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 4: of show up, don't they? Isn't that part of it?

560
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, Colonel is very clear when people go to the

561
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 5: complaint desk, don't leave. The complaint desk area is a

562
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 5: physical area. It's right, right, It's almost it's like when

563
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 5: you're playing tag, there's like a safe zone base. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

564
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 5: the safe base. So it's essentially like that. It's like,

565
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 5: don't leave, don't don't let them convince you to go

566
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 5: back to the dorms. Because there have been situations where

567
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 5: the bosses are so convincing they go, hey, no, just

568
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 5: go back. We can talk about it back in the dorms,

569
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 5: and they get brutally beaten and their chances of even

570
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 5: getting out again are very limited.

571
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: Well, sometimes they go to the desk after having already

572
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 4: been brutally beaten with signs of that kind of violence,

573
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: and yet there's still situations where they might be enticed

574
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 4: to go back. It just speaks to the absolute, you know,

575
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: Jedi level mind games that these folks are playing.

576
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

577
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 4: Hey, what do you say we take a quick break here,

578
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 4: a word from our sponsors, and then get right back

579
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: into this conversation about scam Factory, and we've returned at

580
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 4: this point.

581
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 3: A lot of us listening now will wonder why this

582
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 3: practice continues, indeed, why this practice seems to have not

583
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: been in any way addressed nor in any actionable way

584
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: controlled to preserve the safety of these people who get

585
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: scammed in to scamming. So we have to ask why

586
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: why is no one stopping this?

587
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 4: It's not even reported that widely. I hadn't heard about

588
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 4: it until we did a strange news segment about it

589
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 4: on the show. And this is very much Ben's wheelhouse

590
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 4: with international affairs and such. But I just don't feel

591
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 4: like it gets much traction in the American media, you know,

592
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 4: outside of your incredible series. It seems like a really

593
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 4: off the beaten path kind of story that a lot

594
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 4: of folks are absolutely clueless about.

595
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 5: I think what often happens here in the US when

596
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 5: we report on these stories, it's usually from the standpoint

597
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 5: of the victim, right, the victim who gets the text

598
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 5: and ends up getting scammed. And so, you know, the

599
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 5: goal of telling the story from the perspective of the

600
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 5: scammers is, to Michael, was to really show how connected

601
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 5: we all are. Right, this is a story, Yes, it's

602
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 5: a human trafficking story that's happening all the way in

603
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 5: memr and it feels very very far away, and yet

604
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 5: these same people are very much so connected to us

605
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 5: over here, just simply through a text message. So that

606
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 5: human rights story that's happening over there is very much

607
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 5: something that we should all pay attention over here in

608
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 5: the US. But to your point then that what is happening?

609
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 5: What like, is anybody doing anything about this situation? You know,

610
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 5: these contents have existed for quite some time now. I

611
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 5: could started somewhere during the pandemic when it started to

612
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 5: really pick up. But it's been kind of exciting is

613
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 5: a weird word to use, but you know, I will

614
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 5: I will say that there's been a lot of renewed

615
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 5: attention on these scam compounds. I don't know if you've

616
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 5: heard recently. Earlier this year, there was news of a

617
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 5: Chinese actor who had been tricked. He thought he was

618
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 5: going for a casting call in Bangkok and he ended

619
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 5: up being in one of these compounds in Memar, and

620
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 5: that made huge news. And in addition to that, there

621
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 5: was also another Hong Kong pop star. His name is

622
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 5: Easan Chan. He was scheduled to have a concert in

623
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 5: Bangkok and he canceled it because he was scared that

624
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 5: fans were going to be abducted and taken into Meammar

625
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 5: to these scam compounds, and so both of those events

626
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 5: really just shine new light on the topic. And as

627
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 5: a result of that, there's been a lot of pressure

628
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 5: on the leaders of China and Thailand to do something

629
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 5: about it. And so in the last month in February,

630
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 5: we're seeing a lot of motion, like a lot of activity.

631
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 5: We saw Thailand shut off power in some of the

632
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 5: towns in Memmr for where these compounds are held. Just

633
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 5: last week. Okay, so I don't know when this is

634
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 5: going to air, but last week of February, the compounds,

635
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 5: a couple of compounds released about seven thousand people wow

636
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 5: out and so right now as we're speaking, they're all

637
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 5: hanging out in Memmar waiting to be repatriated back to

638
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 5: their perspective countries. And so that's huge. Seven thousand people

639
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 5: is a lot, and so it's going to be exciting

640
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 5: to see what other new developments are coming out, how

641
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 5: many are more are being released, and so on and

642
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 5: so forth. And actually KK Park, which is one of

643
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 5: the scam factories that we feature in our series, they

644
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 5: released I don't have an exact number, but they released

645
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 5: quite a number of people part of that seven thousand.

646
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: That's anyone who is a regular listener of this show.

647
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: That's one of the ones we highlighted KK Park in

648
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 2: our previous episode on this whole situation.

649
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 4: I think I was taking it back by that because

650
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 4: it literally is like a very professional seeming office park,

651
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 4: you know, but specifically designed for this very you know,

652
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 4: nefarious purpose.

653
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: And folks, real quick, the Chinese actor we're referencing there

654
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 3: is Wong Shinging. I think, so this is getting more

655
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: and more international attention. Thousands of people.

656
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's get a sense of scale here. This

657
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: is from reporting from The Guardian as of just a

658
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: couple of days ago. They're estimating around one hundred and

659
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: twenty thousand people across me mmr are in this situation,

660
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: living in a compound like this, forced to work in

661
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 2: this type of this type of job in that situation.

662
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: There's another one hundred thousand and estimated in Cambodia who

663
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: are having to do this. And you know, that's just

664
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 2: two countries where this type of stuff is happening. And

665
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: so you imagine seven thousand people is so many human

666
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 2: beings that are saved, but then there's so much work

667
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 2: left to do.

668
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, and there are just you'll hear news like this,

669
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 5: but then you'll hear, oh there's a new scam compound

670
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 5: being built in Dubai. Oh there are new compounds being

671
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 5: built in Africa, in South America. So it's it's like

672
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 5: whack a mole, right, you can't the hydra, Yeah, yeah,

673
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 5: you can't kill them off.

674
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I just I don't know. I get

675
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 4: so many scam calls, it's kind of ridiculous, and it

676
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 4: seems like it's gotten just worse and worse, and the

677
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 4: types of scams just seem to keep shifting, Like I

678
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 4: get this one all the time. Now that's saying that

679
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: they need more information for this loan that I applied for,

680
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 4: and it's their underwriting department and I get it.

681
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 3: Spoiler, folks, Noel did not actually apply.

682
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 4: It did not. But it's indifferent voices, they leave messages,

683
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 4: it comes from all kinds of area codes, and it's

684
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 4: coming from this very uniform seeming script. So that's just

685
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 4: one that I've been inundated with. And I just wonder

686
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 4: if you have any thoughts about the are things like

687
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 4: that coming from these types of compounds as well? Is

688
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 4: that a red flag? The idea that it's the scripted

689
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 4: thing with different voices, maybe with spoofed numbers, or how

690
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 4: do they reach us, you know, with this kind of stuff,

691
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 4: and how do you see the evolution of these types

692
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 4: of scams even as governments take action and close some

693
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 4: of these places down.

694
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 5: I don't know for sure if all of the calls

695
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 5: are from these scam centers. I wouldn't be surprised right now,

696
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 5: from what I've heard of from my sources is that

697
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 5: there's a big focus on AI anybody like AI talent

698
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 5: because you know, as you can imagine, if you can

699
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 5: use AI to talk to people, not rely on people

700
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 5: trans late to chat with people, like, it's only going

701
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 5: to become more and more realistic, and that's really scary. Yes,

702
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 5: So that, like, I wouldn't surprise me that they're doing

703
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 5: things like that, But that only means we should all

704
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 5: just be more vigilant of any strange calls, any texts

705
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 5: from strangers.

706
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, to anybody that wants to video chat with you.

707
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 4: Do you have any tips and any tips you might

708
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 4: pass on to folks who in this climate just things

709
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 4: to listen out for without just being completely paranoid and

710
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 4: distrustful of everything, you know, I mean yeah, I don't

711
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 4: know if if if you in the course of your

712
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 4: reporting kind of learned some things to look for and

713
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 4: maybe some suggestions you might give to listeners, you know,

714
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 4: trying to be be vigilant.

715
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: As we're saying, also, Denise, thank you for hopping on

716
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 3: this video chat with us. Jeez, but that's a that's

717
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 3: a great question. So we're we're hearing these very scary things.

718
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 3: We're also learning to exercise empathy for the people who

719
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 3: got scammed into scamming in your work. As Noel was asking,

720
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 3: do we arrive at some basic like day one tips

721
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 3: for the vigilance you describe.

722
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 5: I am the first to admit that now I am

723
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 5: so paranoid of any of any text I got my

724
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 5: way the other day. Just last night, my boyfriend got

725
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 5: a texted was like, Hey, I'm your neighbor, like can

726
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 5: you turn down the music? My name is Debbie. And

727
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 5: we're like, we don't have a neighbor named Debbie. Why

728
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 5: is this their new way to scam people? Now it

729
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 5: turns out it was a wrong number, but I was like,

730
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 5: oh no, oh.

731
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,919
Speaker 3: My gosh, what's going on with Debbie?

732
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 5: Well, so, you know, like I'm constantly worried about this

733
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 5: kind of stuff. But I would say, you know, I'll

734
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 5: give the advice that I give to my mom because

735
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 5: that is what I often times do. One is I

736
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 5: would tell her, do not talk to anybody who's tried

737
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 5: to sneak into your talk to you on Facebook, on WhatsApp,

738
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 5: like any strangers, Like, just don't talk to them. If

739
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 5: somebody is reaching out to you that pretends that they're

740
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 5: from some sort of legitimate company, really try to verify.

741
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 5: What they will often do is if you look closely

742
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 5: at the website they give you, check for the legitimate website,

743
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 5: like google it on your own, just to make sure

744
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 5: it's the real site. Look at email addresses. Sometimes they'll

745
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 5: change like one single letter just to make themselves seem

746
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 5: like they're from the company, but they're really not.

747
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 4: Make sure that you are L is the real U

748
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 4: R L exactly?

749
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, I do RU there you go, they sneak in,

750
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 5: But yeah, I think that that's That's one thing. And

751
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 5: then if in doubt, I would also seek out second

752
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 5: third opinions just to like make sure, so like a

753
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 5: double verify, Like my momost and me all these texts

754
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 5: and emails these days and I'll be like, don't respond.

755
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 5: That's a scam. That's a scam. That's a scam.

756
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

757
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 5: And actually the biggest thing is if you're in conversation

758
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 5: with any of these people, if anybody asked you to

759
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 5: set up a crypto account, that is a big red flag.

760
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 4: You know, don't give my Amazon gift cards another one

761
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 4: anything like that. That's like untraceable, and yes, yes.

762
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 5: That's it. Don't don't set up a crypto account to

763
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 5: do that with strangers.

764
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: Just just while we're here, I want to talk about

765
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: a character named Jella that we meet inside the series,

766
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: and she is somebody who was She was doing the

767
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 2: hotel reviews scam or you know, one of the one

768
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,479
Speaker 2: of the other scams for a while, but she wasn't

769
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: very good at it because she just couldn't convince people

770
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 2: to you know, sink all their money into stuff. So

771
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: she got transferred to another office. I don't know if

772
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: it was the same company or a different company, just

773
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: in the same compound, but she was doing a essentially

774
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: a honey pot scam, but just with a whole room

775
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: full of people doing the same scam where they're trying

776
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: to get people to video chat and do lude things

777
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: on video.

778
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 4: For blackmail extortion.

779
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 2: It's just incredible to think that there are rooms of

780
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: human beings forced to do that type of work. And

781
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 2: then we hear stories, especially of younger people, they get

782
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: caught up in something like that. Who you know a

783
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: younger person that thinks they've got oh wow, here is

784
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: potentially a crusher or you know a relationship that I

785
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: could build and it just turns into something that can

786
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: destroy your entire life. You highlight the possibility of self

787
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 2: harm in some of these situations with another university student

788
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 2: who gets caught up in one of these things. It's

789
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: just I don't even really have a question here, Denise.

790
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: It's just it's so important for all of us to

791
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: know that this stuff exists to arm our minds against

792
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: it at least a lot little bit.

793
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think to your point about Jella, it's like

794
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 5: Jella ends up doing a number of different scams and

795
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 5: without giving everything away, she is reaching out to people

796
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 5: when she does the sextortion scam, it's she's on dating

797
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 5: platforms like she's on that kind of problem. Then she

798
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 5: does she gets moved to another department where they're doing

799
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 5: pig butchering scams on Amazon's shop like it's just you

800
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 5: can't avoid it. They are coming everywhere to try and

801
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 5: develop relationships with people. YIX be careful.

802
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 3: Yes, as you said earlier, the vigilance is key, and

803
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 3: we're exploring this sort of stuff together. Obviously. You know,

804
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 3: the weird thing about the age of ubiquitous social media,

805
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 3: the fact that anyone around the world can contact anyone else.

806
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 3: We would have logically assumed it brought people together, but

807
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 3: it seems to have made people a bit more lonely.

808
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 3: So we have to ask ourselves about the human drive

809
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 3: to connect, right and how that human that fundamental human

810
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 3: drive can be weaponized against people. You know, sometimes we

811
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 3: end these kind of conversations with the with our little

812
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 3: takeaway being like call your mom, you know, call your dad,

813
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 3: check in on the older folks in your life, especially

814
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 3: people who are not, as we would say, native to

815
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 3: this world. And one thing that we really want to

816
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: emphasize with your work in Scam Factory is that, as

817
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: you point out, this is a continuing story. This does

818
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 3: not this does not end with, you know, a nice

819
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 3: bow wrapped to top the gift. Is there is there

820
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 3: a way out for people currently experiencing this on either

821
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 3: side of the phone. We talked about contacting and embassy.

822
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 3: We talked about a couple of day one kind of

823
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 3: things we can do to protect our loved ones. Where

824
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: do you see this industry of scam factories going in

825
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 3: the future. Is there any kind of stop gap?

826
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 4: Is there?

827
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 3: Is it accelerating what's going on?

828
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 5: I hope that there's going to be a stop gap,

829
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 5: but I hope that there will be change. It's hard

830
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 5: to It's really hard to predict, right, because these compounds

831
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 5: are growing so fast. I remember over the course of

832
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 5: my reporting, I reported on this for about two years.

833
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 5: Even when I would look at satellite image of Kkparks specifically,

834
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 5: every month, there'd be new buildings being built, like they're

835
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 5: just constantly growing and things aren't changing.

836
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: Just the amount of money that goes in there. Right,

837
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: you said twenty five thousand dollars a day quota for

838
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: one office, and we're imagining there's a ton of offices, right.

839
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean some companies are making The stat

840
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 5: I had was four hundred thousand dollars a day for

841
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 5: just one single company. So the amount of money that's

842
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 5: coming through it could be billions of dollars, and so

843
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,479
Speaker 5: when you think about how much money is going into

844
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 5: these compounds, you can imagine there's like a lot of

845
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 5: incentive to like make sure it keeps going. So there's

846
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 5: a lot of you know, when you're building things at

847
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 5: this scale, it requires a lot of people to allow

848
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 5: it to happen. And so there's also that which is

849
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 5: what makes it sometimes a bit hard to well, not

850
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 5: a bit, it makes it very hard to stop and

851
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 5: to hold people accountable.

852
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: Can we talk about how I think Charlie. There's a

853
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 2: moment where Charlie wants to go see her brother, and

854
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 2: in order to do that, she negotiates with the character

855
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: we're calling dev in the story. But then she ends

856
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 2: up meeting people who want to go. They are aware

857
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: that it's a scam factory style thing, they know exactly

858
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 2: what it is, and they want to go there to

859
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: make money, and they're like, Yeah, that's great, that sounds great,

860
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: I'll go. I guess that blows my mind because it

861
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 2: does seem like, at least within the story of Scam Factory,

862
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: that there are human beings who are aware of the

863
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: situation in the compounds and still want to go because

864
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 2: there's a belief that perhaps they can make money for

865
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: a few years and then get out.

866
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, there definitely is that. And actually, when I spoke

867
00:50:54,360 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 5: to Colonel there are actually people who at trapped there

868
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 5: but end up staying because they think, you know what,

869
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 5: at the end of the day, I may not be

870
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 5: doing something that is above water, is above word, but

871
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 5: I am making more money than I would make at home.

872
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 5: So I would rather stay here and at least be

873
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 5: able to send money back, and I have all the

874
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,919
Speaker 5: amenities I need, which is really crazy that they these

875
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 5: places become almost a better place to exist in work,

876
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 5: then they would be back home.

877
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 4: Wow.

878
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a devil you know, situation sometimes, right, the

879
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 3: idea that we may we may address or engage with

880
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 3: with a morally fraud kind of enterprise and in doing

881
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 3: so perhaps justify for ourselves a greater good. Right, I

882
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 3: am helping my family, I am pursuing an opportunity and

883
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: always just for a limited time that perhaps is the

884
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 3: most It's that's yeah, it's.

885
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 5: Super insidious, and I think that's they weaponize this notion

886
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 5: of family. They use family to recruit, they use family

887
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 5: to extort, and they use family to control, Like they're

888
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 5: using family to do all of the above to keep

889
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 5: workers doing exactly what they want them to do.

890
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Denise for hanging out with us

891
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: and telling us just about the show you've made. For

892
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 2: this episode, Wow, this is this is?

893
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 3: Are you kidding? Thank you for bringing this story further

894
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 3: into the world, because it's something that is so easy

895
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 3: to ignore. Right It's common parlance here in the West

896
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 3: for people to say, oh, you'll never guess what kind

897
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 3: of scam text I got, and it's very easy to

898
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 3: forget that they're real people on the other side of

899
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: that line. Scam Factory is available now. Spoilers, folks, It's

900
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 3: really good. We're not blowing spoke on this one. The reporting,

901
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 3: Denise you have done got us to I can't speak

902
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 3: for my palace, Matt and noll At. A couple times

903
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 3: in the show, I was wondering, Holy shit, is Denise

904
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,919
Speaker 3: going to be okay reporting this? You know what I mean?

905
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 3: Did you ever feel that you yourself were going to

906
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 3: get targeted for bringing this to the world. I hope

907
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 3: the answer is no.

908
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 5: I mean no, It's in the back of my mind.

909
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 5: You know. In the early stages there were reporters who

910
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 5: didn't want to work with me on this because of

911
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 5: safety concerns, and so that is also one of the

912
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 5: reasons why we don't use we use pseudonyms on the series,

913
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 5: because you know, these are people who have escaped from

914
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 5: criminal syndicates and so they're very afraid, and so that

915
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 5: is something that we had to take a lot of

916
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 5: Karen and really making sure that we do what we

917
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 5: can to protect their identity because it's very very brave

918
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 5: of them to come share their story. But also on

919
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 5: top of that, it's taxing, right, this is a traumatic

920
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 5: experience that they have gone through, and so as a

921
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 5: reporter or the other thing that is very front of

922
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 5: mine for me is really making sure that we are

923
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 5: doing trauma informed reporting and making sure that they are

924
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 5: they they have, they're in control as they're sharing their

925
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 5: stories with us. So I would thank my sources for

926
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 5: speaking and sharing their stories.

927
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 2: I have a potentially dumb question, what is the syndicate?

928
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: Like we talked about it, but is it multiple criminal organizations?

929
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: Is are there a couple that are just controlling a

930
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 2: lot of this stuff or they like I'm imagining all

931
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 2: these different front companies right that are operating in some way.

932
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 3: Who's the stakeholder cough cough.

933
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 5: So from my understanding, it's not like there's one family

934
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 5: crime or criminal organization on the top of everything. It's

935
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 5: all like the you know, this isn't Batman. So I

936
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 5: don't know how many how many people are in charge

937
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 5: at the top. I think there are a lot of entrepreneurs.

938
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 3: I recall it that entrepreneurs.

939
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 5: Who see this as an opportunity to make money. And

940
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 5: I've even heard of like this is really crazy, but

941
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 5: I've heard of things like a startup kit that have

942
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 5: been being distributed as to like how you can set

943
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 5: up your own scamming like scamming company. And so because

944
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 5: of that, it's it's kind of scary in that you

945
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 5: can see it as entrepreneurship. And so therefore you can't

946
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 5: really pinpoint who is at the top of all of this.

947
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 5: But there has been reporting of of some individuals who've

948
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 5: been funding some of these things.

949
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 3: And then yeah, and we can't thank you enough for

950
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 3: your time bringing this story to the world.

951
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 4: You have to be so busy.

952
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,439
Speaker 3: And we are are grateful that you're even hanging out

953
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 3: with us here. We usually, you know, just for the record,

954
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 3: tell Stoners about Bigfoot. So can I get away with

955
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 3: that one if we're going to keep it in. So

956
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: this is this, Thanks Andrew. This is something more people

957
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,879
Speaker 3: need to know about, Denise. Is there a place where

958
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 3: people can learn more about your work, not just with

959
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 3: this project scam Factory, but with your other endeavors and projects.

960
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 5: Thank you for asking, Ben. I was just thinking this

961
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 5: morning that I should really get my website so that

962
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 5: people can see my work. But yeah, for the time being,

963
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 5: you can probably you can follow me on social media

964
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 5: Denise k Chan and on LinkedIn probably the best way

965
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 5: to see my work, and eventually, hopefully by the time

966
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 5: this is up, you can find me on my website.

967
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me.

968
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 3: Of course, thank you, and there you have it, fellow

969
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 3: conspiracy realist. We have followed up on our earlier episode

970
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: about KK Park and the troubled order of Meam mark guys. Honestly,

971
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 3: scam Factory. It's really good, It really really is.

972
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 4: It's just beautifully researched and reported, obviously, and also the

973
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 4: sound design is top notch and very immersive without you know,

974
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 4: kind of getting in the way. Really can't wait to

975
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 4: hear more. I think there's one more episode to drop

976
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 4: as we sit and record this today.

977
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and some of us have listened and it

978
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 2: uh wow, just you should listen. I'll put it that way.

979
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: I don't want to spoil anything. It is such a

980
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: crazy story. And have you said something at the top,

981
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 2: know all about Charlie, that character Charlie just following the

982
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 2: journey all the way to the end.

983
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is something that really hit me. You guys,

984
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 3: Denise Chan and her team are looking at the human

985
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 3: consequences that we explored briefly, but they're looking at it

986
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 3: in depth. You know, there's always someone else on the

987
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 3: other side of the phone, and we know that it

988
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:36,479
Speaker 3: can be so tempting and easy to clown folks who

989
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 3: are scammers, but we have to ask where that person

990
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 3: is coming from and whether they want to be there.

991
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a scam all the way down and

992
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 2: all the way up, everybody scamming everybody in the chain

993
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: when it comes to this, and guys, it made me

994
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: just think about I don't know, some stuff I kind

995
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 2: of don't want to say on the mic, just about

996
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 2: jobs in general, taxes and oh boy, getting scammed. Just heay, No,

997
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 2: we just need you to work a little bit longer

998
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 2: you'll retire one day. No, no, no, we promise. Yeah,

999
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 2: you'll retire. You'll go on that cruise. You'll be sixty,

1000
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: maybe eighty, but go on a cruise for sure.

1001
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. Just keep just keep digging, and pay no attention

1002
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 3: to the gun at the back of your head.

1003
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 2: Y yeah.

1004
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and remember you're only renting the shovel anyway, not

1005
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 3: keeping it too dark. We want to hear your thoughts, folks.

1006
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 3: Please check out Scam Factory, and please, please please remember

1007
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 3: that this show only happens with your support. You are

1008
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 3: the most important part of our exploration. As such, we

1009
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 3: would love to hear from you. The rumors are true.

1010
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 3: You can find us on email. You can find us

1011
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 3: on a telephonic device of your choice. You can also

1012
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 3: sip the social means.

1013
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 4: Indeed, you can find us the handle Conspiracy Stuff where

1014
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 4: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where

1015
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 4: it gets crazy. On YouTube, we have video content galore

1016
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 4: for you to enjoy, as well as on x FKA, Twitter,

1017
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 4: on Instagram and TikTok. We're Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1018
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1019
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. When you call in, it's a voicemail system.

1020
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 2: Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know within

1021
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 2: the message if we can use your name and message

1022
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 2: on the air. If you've got more to say, they

1023
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 2: could fit a three minute message. Maybe you've got links,

1024
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 2: maybe you've got photographs, other attachments. Why not send us

1025
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 2: a good old fashioned email.

1026
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1027
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 3: we received. Be well aware, yet unafree. Sometimes the void

1028
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 3: writes back. Big, big thank you to our many fellow

1029
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 3: listeners who checked in about our run of classic episodes. Guys,

1030
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 3: remember we did some classic episodes for about a week there.

1031
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: Yes we did, Indeed we did.

1032
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 5: We did.

1033
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 3: We're back in the saddle. Just to let everybody know

1034
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 3: who asked, we are okay, we are live. We are

1035
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 3: making this show with our own consent. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio

1036
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 3: dot com.

1037
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1038
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1039
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.